FrankChurch wrote: Mark, you're new, so you may have not seen me say this: states are never legitimate. States are power centers and centers of violence. Nation states have to live by rules, this is why we have a UN Charter. Until Israel lives by the charter they remain a criminal state.
I don't even know where to begin with that.
Well, why not with this: states are never legitimate? Then there is no basis for negotiation between population groups, because for that to happen, a state must come into existence to represent them. Anything less is chaos.
Superlatives are always wrong, Frank.
States are legitimate once a substantial number of other states recognize them as such. That's pretty much a principle going back to neolithic times. So that part of the statement is gobbledygook.
Yes, states are power centers and part of that power is the capacity to project violence. Again, always has been the case. Any state that rejects violence won't last long, unless it has allies who will use violence on its behalf. This is reality.
Force of law is based on violence, real and theoretical. Law is coercive.
You're living in a house and all your neighbors hate you. From time to time they try to evict you, occasionally shoot at you, and you find yourself forced to shoot back because no one apparently will stop them. Then one day, someone does and he comes to your door and says, "They won't bother you anymore, so would kindly surrender your weapons so we can have peace in the neighborhood?" "Why?" you ask. "Well, they say they won't surrender theirs' till you surrender yours." You look at this guy and ask "So, where do you live?" "On the other side of the country."
I would be inclined to say "Fuck you" as well.
This is what Israel has been living with since its creation. They have become unpleasant, brutal people, and now pre-emptively shoot at, burn down, and trash their neighbors. As a nation, they've been traumatized, which is tough because they began as a nation of traumatized people.
This is the like saying that Russia shouldn't be paranoid just because it has a thousand year history of being invaded. Repeatedly. It was legitimate to condemn what they became, because they heaped the same crap right back out the door that they'd been on the receiving end of. But it's irresponsible to forget that history.