Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:28 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Please, I beg you, put yourself into the shoes of Palestinians. If you were in their shoes you would be in another place. Nothing justifies violence but it can be explained. Occupation leads to violence reaction. Think Iraq, think ISIS.

Mod, I don't think Lori wants me dead. Ah, hmm. :shock:


Your ideology blinds you, Frank.

Never, under any -- any -- circumstances, would I remotely entertain the notion of entering a place of worship with a machete and deliberately hack four members of the clergy.

Putting myself in a sane Palestinian shoes, I would be appalled and humiliated by such an action.

Utterly and completely unforgivable under any circumstances.
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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:19 pm

Frank, thanks for understanding. You always surprise me young man mostly for the good.


Sorry for the hyperbolic language, but you are all acting like I'm the only one who knows Frank. He doesn't mince his words, and by now that has pissed off not a few people both on and off line. You can believe that he's not on at east one shit list, and someone thought about violence. And most likely Frank is alive because hurt feelings aren't a justification for homicide.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:18 pm

My mother, peaceful soul that she is (truly), offered a suggestion to at least begin ending the stand-off between Israel and Palestine. Flatten Jerusalem. Neither of them can have it. Turn it into glass. Once done, get down to organizing yourselves into responsible states, now that you don't have a piece of dirt to bitch about.

I don't think she'd actually do it, but it does have a certain visceral appeal.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:25 am

I like that idea. . .

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Rick Keeney
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Rick Keeney » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:20 am

Lori Koonce wrote:And most likely Frank is alive because hurt feelings aren't a justification for homicide.



That's what you already said.

I disagree with the concept and it's appropriateness in these forums.

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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:57 pm

Rick Keeney wrote:
Lori Koonce wrote:And most likely Frank is alive because hurt feelings aren't a justification for homicide.



That's what you already said.

I disagree with the concept and it's appropriateness in these forums.


(Which was my point in official "moderator guy" garb, Rick.)

There's no call, even obliquely, for this sort of commentary.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:10 pm

Barber

I think this is one of the few times that agreeing to disagree is the best and most tactful way to go.

I cannot be responsible for everyone's reaction and won't attempt to be. Frank wasn't offended, and that to me is most important.

As usual, I will do my best not to be so hyperbolic, but make no promises.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:22 pm

And I supported using a machete when??

The crime was done by rouge elements not a group. There is zero political leadership for Palestinians in Jerusalem. You kick a dog enough they bite back.

So, Barber, is it wrong to bomb a Mosque in gaza or killing young boys kicking a soccer ball? fourteen hundred dead innocents is a bit worse than what happened in Israel. I think we know where the bias lies. Israeli human rights groups--not Palestinians--condemn Israel most of the time as well. Are they biased?

Dog will not hunt.

---------

Lori, aww.

---------

The Bill Cosby AP interview pretty much proves one of my points about media. Cosby asks them to not air the video, they air it. AP says it is newsworthy. Ah, is a Noam Chomsky interview newsworthy? Our media decides who gets the air time. They suppress those they dislike. or say the wrong things, meaning the right things.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:50 pm

Frank, the murderous thugs used machetes when the entered a Jewish temple and bloodily filleted four men of the cloth.

You specifically said I should try standing in the assailants' shoes before judging.

Wrong.

I can judge their action -- officially sanctioned by Hamas (the government) as brutal, illegal, repugnant and appalling.

Defending it puts you in the apologists category for murderous thugs.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:54 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:Barber

I think this is one of the few times that agreeing to disagree is the best and most tactful way to go.

I cannot be responsible for everyone's reaction and won't attempt to be. Frank wasn't offended, and that to me is most important.

As usual, I will do my best not to be so hyperbolic, but make no promises.


Well, no.

Lori, I carefully donned my Moderator cap before my initial comment. Under that guise there is no "agree to disagree". I'm here, by common assent, as the arbiter. So...no, no agreement to disagree is asked for or expected.

As Moderator I am telling you to back it up.
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Steve Barber
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Barber » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:05 pm

FrankChurch wrote:And I supported using a machete when??.


When you defended the actions of the terrorists with any other than "appalling". There is no "but".

[quote="FrankChurch The crime was done by rouge elements not a group. There is zero political leadership for Palestinians in Jerusalem. You kick a dog enough they bite back. .[/quote]

I think you mean "rogue". And that's nonsense. The Palestinians have a significant leadership -- political or otherwise -- in Jerusalem. Hamas is a state, but they act like terrorists. You condemn the government of Israel but don't the government of Gaza. THAT is bias.

[quote="FrankChurch So, Barber, is it wrong to bomb a Mosque in gaza or killing young boys kicking a soccer ball? fourteen hundred dead innocents is a bit worse than what happened in Israel. I think we know where the bias lies. Israeli human rights groups--not Palestinians--condemn Israel most of the time as well. Are they biased?.[/quote]

I've often found that people who have to ask questions instead of making declarative statements in discussions, really don't know the answers themselves and are simply using the questioning to gain control of the conversation. It's an age-old tactic for people who don't know the issues but have seen the questions work for others.

[quote="FrankChurch The Bill Cosby AP interview pretty much proves one of my points about media. Cosby asks them to not air the video, they air it. AP says it is newsworthy. Ah, is a Noam Chomsky interview newsworthy? Our media decides who gets the air time. They suppress those they dislike. or say the wrong things, meaning the right things.[/quote]

No, Bill Cosby is far more well-known and will generate far higher ratings (people who are watching) and advertising (people who are buying.

If you want Chomsky to carry Cosby's audience he needs to attract them in the first place. That's part of our economic model, Frank. It's reality. Railing against it does no good. You want more Chomsky, ask him to promote himself to a wider audience.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:46 pm

Moderator wrote:
Lori Koonce wrote:Barber

I think this is one of the few times that agreeing to disagree is the best and most tactful way to go.

I cannot be responsible for everyone's reaction and won't attempt to be. Frank wasn't offended, and that to me is most important.

As usual, I will do my best not to be so hyperbolic, but make no promises.


Well, no.

Lori, I carefully donned my Moderator cap before my initial comment. Under that guise there is no "agree to disagree". I'm here, by common assent, as the arbiter. So...no, no agreement to disagree is asked for or expected.

As Moderator I am telling you to back it up.



Steve

Just to clarify. I'm not going to attempt to prove myself correct. That's where agreeing to disagree comes in for me.

You've asked me not to do something, and I will do my levelheaded best not to do it again. I cannot and will not make any stronger a promise.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FinderDoug » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:48 pm

You kick a dog enough they bite back.
You like to invoke 40+ year old events all the time to make your points, CointelPro. So mull this for a minute:

- The state of Israel didn't even exist in December 1947 when various Arab groups began attacking Jewish targets in what would become Israel, initiating civil war in Palestine.

- Israel existed for ONE DAY before the Arab League - Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq representing (with Jordan violating their word to Israel that they wouldn't join in, and Saudi Arabia joining in later) - sent troops in to seize territory and attack Jewish settlements. Ten months of war followed.

- In the aftermath, among other things, Egypt called for Israel's destruction and tried to block their access to the Red Sea, and a coalition of Arab states tried to divert the headwaters of the Jordan River to deprive them of water.

- You can blame Israel for striking first in the Six-Day War in 1967, but you cannot discount what preceded it: mobilization of Egyptian troops along the border and the closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, as well as PLO attacks on Israeli targets.

- Palestinians violated the long-standing tradition of peace among Olympic competitors in 1972 to murder Israeli athletes with an international television audience.

- 1973: sneak-attack on Israel by Egypt and Syria on Yom Kippur - because nothing says "We are righteous!" like attacking people on their high holy day.

- 1976: Palestinian terrorists seize a flight, divert it to Entebbe, let everyone but the Israelis go, and threaten to kill the Israelis if their demands aren't met. The IDF settled their hash well enough.

And that's just the highlights from the first 30 years of Israel's life.

So, yeah. You kick a dog enough, they bite back. Very true. But the people of the region really only have themselves to blame for the way Israel bites. They sure didn't seem to have a problem when they were kicking it, did they?

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Rick Keeney
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Rick Keeney » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:50 pm

You following along here, Franklin?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:08 pm

Probably not. But, I wanna thank you for the history lesson.


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