Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

[FrankChurch]

Doug is a swell feller but he is no historian or expert on Palestine. Look for Rashid Khalidi's Iron Cage and Benny Morris on the Jewish side.

Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk too.

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Barber, not them, the Palestinians, all of them. When some kid throws a rock at a tank and gets shot is that right?

We are angry at ISIS for cutting heads, but we are also bombing innocent Syrians. Not good. Think like a Syrian. Basic Christian ethic.

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Barber, again, Chomsky is as popular as popcorn and rainbows. Keep alert.

[FrankChurch]

FAIR once again studied how many anti war voices were on media in the ISIS debate. non. sigh.

[Mark Tiedemann]

Doug is a swell feller but he is no historian or expert on Palestine. Look for Rashid Khalidi's Iron Cage and Benny Morris on the Jewish side.

Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk too.

No. No. No. No.

You want to taken seriously, here was an opportunity for you to take Doug's points, one at a time, and explain to all of us what the "real" history is. Yourself. You throw a reference out to a couple of people you think will answer the questions you think are important if we all go read whatever it is they wrote, but no, that's not the way you do it. Damnit. YOU address him, point for point. What is wrong with what he said? Why are his facts irrelevant to you? You throw names around like it makes you look cool or smart, but all it does is make us think you're too lazy to make your own case and want us to do the work for you. (It's like asking someone "What does Jesus mean to you?" and in reply he hands you a Bible. It answers nothing, especially not the question asked.)

I will agree that Israel has become entrenched in security-state thinking and lead with a right cross when something more sophisticated might be more appropriate, but that does not negate ALL THAT HISTORY Doug just clearly and concisely laid out. Now, if you want to have a debate, then it's your turn. Why is he wrong? Not, "go read this book by so-n-so and you'll discover maybe why you got it wrong." That's not the way to do it. YOU answer the fucking question.

What is the error in what Doug posted? The mic is yours.

[FinderDoug]

Ah, that old, cheap, chickenshit Frank Church insult: "so-and-so can't hold a candle to my experts."

No response of his own, so he falls back on attacking the intellectual capability of the poster. Amusing, really, when you consider how often Frank is demonstrably wrong.

[Rick Keeney]

16 thousand-some efforts, and counting.

[Rick Keeney]

Doug is a swell feller but he is no historian or expert on Palestine. Look for Rashid Khalidi's Iron Cage and Benny Morris on the Jewish side.

Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk too.

--------------

Barber, not them, the Palestinians, all of them. When some kid throws a rock at a tank and gets shot is that right?

We are angry at ISIS for cutting heads, but we are also bombing innocent Syrians. Not good. Think like a Syrian. Basic Christian ethic.

-------------

Barber, again, Chomsky is as popular as popcorn and rainbows. Keep alert.

How condescending can one troll be?

[FrankChurch]

I would debate but not after those personal insults.

[FinderDoug]

Uh huh. Suuuure you woulda.

[Mark Tiedemann]

I would debate but not after those personal insults.

No, you wouldn't. Since I've been posting here, I haven't seen you do so once. As soon as the rebuttles come in, you change the topic and pretend you didn't light that fire.

[Lori Koonce]

Just a thought Frank, but maybe if you present an argument before we insult you, we wouldn't do it quite so much.

[FinderDoug]

Just to be clear: I wasn't calling Frank 'chickenshit'.

I was calling the tactic of belittling the person drawn into the conversation, in lieu of actually addressing the points made by that person, 'chickenshit'. It says, "Rather than engage in the discussion I started in the first place, I'm going to dismiss everything you said by implying your arguments en toto have no merit."

More simply? "Fuck you and what you said; it's beneath my notice, because I'M familiar with the work of true EXPERTS."

And before he cries, "I didn't mean it like that!" (the other retreat he tends to sound - portrait of Frank as poor, misunderstood poster), I no longer have benefit of the doubt for him. He knows from the LAST time he used this rhetorical trick on me that it's one that grinds my gears. I believe that's why he did it again: from the dismissive pat on the head ("swell feller" - like I'm some fucking dog) right into the 'who cares what you say, you're not an expert', his aim was to wind me up.

Someday, if he's not careful, he's may get that key turned all the way around.

[Moderator]

Boy did I pick a bad day to travel. Shit, guys.

Yes, several posts were insulting towards Frank. Doug clarified, but still not right.

Yes, Frank's posts were the typical dodge, but it's no reason to start slinging the insults.

Everyone back off, and let it simmer down.

[FrankChurch]

Sorry Barber. But it is scary--it is only a discussion, a debate, it is not street fighting. Debate is irrational but we don't have to be that way. We all need to tamper it down, me too.

On that historical topic: You cannot go all the way to 1948 or before, we are talking about 2014. It is about occupation and how to deal with it as a Palestinians. Some use violence, some use peace, most use peace. Israel takes more land, closes the Temple Mount. Telling Muslims your religion and culture is beneath us.

The reason arabs invaded Israel is because of a fear or changing their surroundings like they did with the ending of Ottoman empire. Imperial Britain took over after the end of that empire and reshaped the middle east, with no help from Arabs. The zionists went along with that and they knew it. We also need to mention the fact that terrorist organizations like Irgun ethically cleansed thousands of Palestinians. Arabs were rightly worried their countries would be next. The 67 war pretty much reshaped the region again, in mostly bad ways.

[FrankChurch]

Media has to focus on the violence. Typical. Prosecutor basically egged it on. Darren Wilson's testimony was loopy.

[FrankChurch]

Surprise, surprise, the Today show goes after the Parents of Brown, not supportive:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/2 ... 24726.html

They will not mention that cities all over had peaceful protests. I really loved the die-in in Chicago. woohoo.