Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Gwyneth M905
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:51 pm

Frank, I agree with Steve. The Taliban is an excessively brutal regime which doesn't even follow the precepts of Shari'a law that allow rights to Muslim women. For us to pull out now is to create a power vacuum that only the Taliban would fill--not the "common" people of Afghanistan.

By all means, privately support people like Greg Mortensen (sp?) who, in "Three Cups of Tea" talked about the importance of building schools and giving the kids an alternative to education in the reactionary,terrorist madrassas.

But this is a case where the country is ruled by people with Kalashnikovs. And it has been for so long that it will take a substantive presence like the US to fight them back and keep them back long enough for the "average Afghan's life" to even begin to send a green shoot through the frozen ground.

You are correct in that a long-term presence of Americans would be counter-productive: Afghanistan "beat" the British Empire, it "beat" the Soviets, and, should we attempt to stay there long-term, it will "beat" us. The terrain and the demographics (a fragmented tribal system) work against us.

But a strong US fight to wipe out the Taliban and kill Bin Laden is a necessary evil. The Taliban leaders are as immoral and unprincipled as the Nazis, even if they're not as well organized. Believe me, if they could set up concentration camps, they would. They only haven't because they can police the people woman by woman; homosexual by homosexual; Shia'a by Shia'a; one by one.
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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:24 pm

So, how are we going to pay for this war? Green stamps?

We don't have money for anything. They will take money from vital social programs and glom on bucks to this war machine. Our private mercenaries will have their dross, Afghan anger will get worse, recruits will be plentiful.

So, here's what we do--we bomb the women first before the Taliban throws acid in their faces. At least they will die pre-acid faced. It's kind of like assisted suicide, eh Steve?

--------------

States are not moral agents. Violence should be the last thing that can be justified. Al Qaeda has been taken care of there. If we can stop the funding, that's how you stop the violence. We bribe the insurgents not to hit our soldiers and they funnel the money back to Daddy Taliban.

We have to scrap the current government, which is corrupt and begin negotiations, setting up a new government, where different groups control different sectors. The Taliban will not go away, we have to talk to them. In the unreal world we can hope that the bad guys melt away, but this is the real world. We have to accept what can be accomplished and leave it at that. Aid for building up Afghan society is the best way to ensure a possible democratic tomorrow, even if that means bribing the Taliban. We CANNOT AND WILL NOT WIN. I don't want our blood and treasure wasted on a risky hope.

We cannot afford it, bottom line. Healthcare and everything else will be scrapped because of this risky scheme. Let the Afghans sort out their troubles. The UN can help. Western countries need to butt out.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:37 pm

You notice Fox is very quiet about the ACORN win. Losers.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:50 pm

If you are so worried about paying for American presence in a nation, shall we talk about Korea. We've had some sort of military presence there for over 50 years now.

I agree with the others. I don't believe that we should just stop trying to keep the Taliban at bay because we cannot. We may be going broke, but our BIllions against their thousands....

Steve said it best. We fucked up that nation, we need to repair it the best we can and then get the hell out of there.

I agree with Obama too. When he accepted his Nobel he stated that there are wars that are unjust, and ones that are fully justifiable.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:08 pm

I personally find the argument of fiscal responsibility in the face of Bush's wars and financial malfeasance to be disingenuous at best -- if not downright repulsive and arrogant at the worst.

The people most arguing for financial restraint -- not you Frank, but the Teabaggers, etc -- were pathetically silent during Bush's tenure.

It is only now, under a Democratic Presidency, that they've rediscovered their fiscally conservative roots. Only now, in retrospect, do they acknowledge that Bush was untrue to his claim on conservative values. Only now, when it can truthfully do the most harm to the peoples of Afghanistan and the American economy, do they speak out about the financial cost of war and bailout, while they stood barking in support when it came to attacking that nation in the first place or making money in the stock market or buying a house they cannot afford -- and even morso when it came to the unwarranted assault on Iraq. Those of us who argued against the attack on Iraq were labeled -- by these self-same neo-accountants -- as treasonous or traitorous for not supporting the President. Those of us who suggested that the unbridled economic enthusiasm were anti-American naysayers. Those of us who said the country waas on the wrong track were derided as delusional.

And now that they've helped drive the nation to ruin, those people who decry the lost values of our nation -- who claim that we now need to stop the bailouts -- have come crawling out of the woodwork to say "but the path we are descending is wrong". Now, when they are convinced of Obama's satanic origins and the evil that is Wall Street, do they sober up, denying it was they, they themselves who were the most drunk at the party. When they look in their wallets and realize they sepnt their own pensions (and mine too) do they stop to consider.

Fuck you guys. If you'd spoken up seven years ago you might have enough credibility left to get my attention. But now, shut the fuck up and let us fix the problem you guys created.


And Frank: I cannot square your stated principles with your position that we ought to abandon the people of Afghanistan to ruthless dictators after having destroyed their country.

To do so would be a crime against the Afghans every bit as heinous as the one you condemn as being perpetrated against the Palestinians.
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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:18 pm

Come on Steve, there are crimes going on everywhere. Using that standard we should be sending troops to Africa right now. The Congo alone is pure madness. We cannot be the worlds police force because nobody respects us or should and we cannot afford it.

I already stated that we should pay reparations, to Afghanistan and to Iraq. That would help quell the violence, along with using police functions to roust terrorists. We should engadge with Afghanistan, just not in war, which was illegal anyway. There was no war resolution and we did not get attacked by a state, only stateless actors. If they want UN peace keepers, fine, but we should not be there. We end violence by leaving. Muslims do not like their land occupied by the West, period.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:27 pm

We need more politicians like the late Wayne Morse, one of two men who voted against the Gulf of Tonkin iniative, that led to the Vietnam war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyFq9yco_Kc

Sound familiar?

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David Loftus
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby David Loftus » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:18 pm

A dyed-in-wool Oregonian. Our kind o' guy.

Don't forget the other one to vote with him: Ernest Gruening of Alaska.
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:21 pm

There ya go David. You get the Frank Church seal of approval today. Live with that.

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Jim Davis
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Jim Davis » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:08 pm

Why am I not surprised that all the avowed Democrats and Obama supporters think escalating the war in Afghanistan is a good thing? Folks, laugh at Frank all you want, but he's dead right on this. All the same, old, moldy arguments--there will be civil war! the Taliban bombed that Buddha statue! we have to finish the job!--are just that: old, often irrelevant (like anyone thinks the Taliban is peachykeen), and taken from the same canned responses that justified our earlier, failed incursion into Iraq. And, yes, it was a failure, unless you think almost a million deaths, the ethnic cleansing of Sunnis (and some Shiites) from Baghdad and al-Anbar province, and the production of almost a million refugees, many of them driven to Jordan and Syria, are anything but a black mark on this country.

And Iraq was nothing compared to Afghanistan. Was there anything you guys didn't like about the Bush admin's conduct of the war (besides the invasion, of course) other than the fact that a guy you didn't like was its figurehead? Because the same people who helped to bring you that debacle are pushing this turkey down our throats, too. (Read this article on Tomdispatch if you don't believe.)

I said it before, and I'll say it again: the Democratic party is not antiwar. It never has been, at least not for most of the past 120 years, and it never will be--not if its members happily gulp down the thin gruel that this modern warstate spoons out and call it ambrosia, anyway. Time to grow up: unilaterally invading countries and killing their citizens (despotic as some of them may be) doesn't grow democracies, and all the drones and superbases can't change that fact.
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"His plan therefore was not to refuse admission to the idea, but to keep it at bay until his mind was ready to receive it. Then let it in and pulverise it. Obliterate the bastard."--Samuel Beckett

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Jim Davis
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Jim Davis » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:27 pm

Here are two more articlesyou should read.

You really think pouring billions into this government is going to do anything but cost money and lives? Ah, well, as Obama said in Oslo, "Peace demands sacrifice." (Funny, I thought war did, but I guess I'm not up on my Orwell-speak these days.)
--

"His plan therefore was not to refuse admission to the idea, but to keep it at bay until his mind was ready to receive it. Then let it in and pulverise it. Obliterate the bastard."--Samuel Beckett

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:39 pm

Jim Davis, I keep thinking you were banned..lol

I am not keen on your drubbings of Harlan but you pretty much summed it up. They support the war because it is a democrat, it's as simple as that. Obama uses almost the same wording as Bush, except for the folksy ramblings, because, on his best day, Obama could never be folksy. Too much Hawvard indwelling, beyond the community organizing, which seems to have not taken as much as I'd thought. This surely proves that Obama learned very little from Reverend Wright.

The American exceptionalism routine was pathetic. All the guff about supporting human rights and America never doing bad things around the world and we are a force for good--blah, blah, reminded me of Stalinism at its most debased. Mr. President, read Tim Wiener's Legacy of Ashes or Howard Zinn's People's History for info you should know, being you were trained by radicals like Bill Ayers..lol We are a leading terrorist state, not a force for good. The only good has come from struggle, mostly from our side. Non-violent progressive protest won many victories. War only creates more problems, more violence. There is rarely a just war and this one certainly isn't one.

---------------

Hitchens was debating the war and was asked about international law. His answer? International law is murky! What about American foreign policy?

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:29 pm

Frank opined

The American exceptionalism routine was pathetic. All the guff about supporting human rights and America never doing bad things around the world and we are a force for good--blah, blah, reminded me of Stalinism at its most debased.

You see Frank this is why I can't take your political views seriously. If you really can't tell the difference between the usual politician's spew about how wonderful Americans are (have you ever heard an American politician NOT say this) and "Stalinism at its most debased" the all you prove is that you don't know anything about Stalinism.

There is a principled case against this war but it doesn't require us to put on ideological blinkers or demonize people who have different political views.

We are a leading terrorist state...

Yeah so you and Noam keep telling us. But where on earth are we doing anything like what the Russians are doing in Chechnya or the Chinese in Tibet or the Iranians to their own people?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:22 pm

Ezra, we killed about a million in Iraq, not counting the sanctions. We killed about two million in Vietnam, more in Laos, Cambodia. That's three million, just a fraction of the deaths. I don't live in China. I can only affect what my country does.

Our attacks gave China and Russia the go ahead to approve their crimes. Unilateralism catches like a sneeze.

Any freedom or liberty comes from struggle. God bless the struggle.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:52 pm

Obama recognized the fake election in Honduras, where the corporate, right wing candidate wins. It did help that the Zelaya people protested this fake election by sitting out. Remember, the jackboot military ousted Zelaya, the same military that I'm sure Obama will reward with cash. Our savior is wearing thin.

-----------------

Massive media exposure for the Boeing Dreamliner. What they didn't mention is that part of the funding was by the government of...Japan! The parts were made in many different countries, including ours. No wonder Americans don't have jobs.


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