Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:04 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Surely the Unitary executive is close.


It exists.

In Venezuela.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:03 pm

Barber, Chavez had to have a vote to do any decree. Dictators just do it. His decrees are very odd since they deal with building houses for displaced poor people and taking land from corrupt landlords. This is all legal, it is in their constitution. Dictators make up their own laws.

This is a special situation. Imagine if our media demanded that Obama be violently overthrown? Imagine what Obama would legally be able to do? Venezuelan newspapers and tv generally compare Chavez to Hitler. We would be appalled here. The corporate parties are on record saying that they want to destroy the socialist system, meaning poor people would be back to being slaves to a corrupt minority rule. The most important fact is that the peasants wanted Chavez to be more radical. He is responding to them. Dictators never do that. They tend to only respond to corrupt oligarchs.

There is massive corruption among the private sector, mafia style payoffs and such. These decrees deal with that. The Parliament still has the ability to create their own laws. No dictatorship.

If peasants start being tortured, rich elites given reign, then we can talk.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:20 pm

Then don't compare Chavez to Hitler (I didn't). Don't compare him to Obama (I didn't).

Read, in his own words, his instructions to the people-elected new Parliament: "They will not be able to create even one law, little Yankees," he said. "We will win ... let's see how they are going to make laws now."

He usurped the Parliament's power. Had it handed to him by his own dragoons before they were booted from office. "Rule by Decree".

(And despite your arguments to the contrary, neither the French nor American presidents can rule by decree, though Bush certainly wanted to do so.)

dic·ta·tor   /ˈdɪkteɪtər, dɪkˈteɪtər/
–noun
1. a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.
2. (in ancient Rome) a person invested with supreme authority during a crisis, the regular magistracy being subordinated to him until the crisis was met.
3. a person who authoritatively prescribes conduct, usage, etc.: a dictator of fashion.
4. a person who dictates, as to a secretary.


dic·ta·tor·ship   /dɪkˈteɪtərˌʃɪp, ˈdɪkteɪ-/
–noun
1. a country, government, or the form of government in which absolute power is exercised by a dictator.
2. absolute, imperious, or overbearing power or control.
3. the office or position held by a dictator.



Sorry pal: Neither the reality of the situation in Venezuela nor the English language are on your side.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:30 pm

Do you know how different the situation there is compared to here? The rich minority wants to gain power and subject the people to misery. What you are doing is comparing there to here. Honest people should not do that. Socialism is quite different than capitalism. To capitalists, taking away private property, even if it is used for good is considered dictatorial. I consider it to be a common good. What Thom Hartmann calls "the commons."

Chavez is known for angry blather. He knows he cannot change how the government works. Once again, the Parliament gave him the rights, which are legal there.

The right wing there are not even valid citizens. Many of them were there under the fascists before democratic change. Many of them migrated to make money not be citizens who cared about the rights of all. Many of these elites have guest houses in Miami. This is similar to the Cuban terrorists in Miami who tried to kill Castro in Cuba during Operation Mongoose.

This situation in Venezuela is not so easy to define. You think Chavez is bad, wait till the fascist right takes over. A good reason Chavez needs this extra-power. You cannot dogtie Chavez, but not look at the corruption on the other side. These are people who would subject the poor there to poverty and death. They do not have the safety valves we have here. Granted, Americans are too apathetic and stupid to use them.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:35 pm

"The most recent election is a death-nell for the species."

Noam Chomsky. Gulp.

-------------

Decent video on the aspect of Peak Oil. Interesting, Greg Palast doesn't believe it. My boy Chomsky and Kunstler on the same video--neato:

http://www.thenation.com/video/157441/p ... ng-climate

We are so fucked. Methane is under the perma-frost. What happens if that methane gets loose? Good God?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:37 pm

Barber, I take it you support the overthrow of the Saudi royal family? What if Al Qaida takes over? See? lol What about Pakistan?

-----------

Now Obama wants Mayor Daley's brother as the next Rham. The ex-President of a big bank. We are so fucked.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:52 pm

Steve I admire your tenaciousness with Frank. He's like mercury oozing all over the place and it is amusing to try to scoop him up. I'm sure you realize you're wasting your time. As long as you enjoy it.

Frank you're a TRUE BELIEVER. You know the TRUTH. You always have the ANSWER. I've grown up with people like you. I used to be like you. Until one day a tiny little crack appeared and it was all uphill from there.

In the words of the Alchemists

I have known the GREAT DOUBT and I am free.

Frank I sincerely hope someday you know the GREAT DOUBT too.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:47 pm

Boy, I really missed a central point. After more study I found some very interesting things out. The Chavez decrees are constitutional. Venezuela is not the United States. They have different laws then we do, as does France, as does Canada.

Chavez cannot, CANNOT ram through what he wants. The Supreme Court can revoke any law that they feel is unconstitutional--quite democratic. The Assembly can vote down any decree! People themselves can sign petitions and a certain amount of the people can revoke any decree. You don't have these checks and balances in a dictatorship. Nothing is stopping the Assembly or the Supreme Court from revoking any law.

Remember, the US is NOT a democracy. We are an oligarch controlled by big money, who own two parties, keeping out other parties. Money runs the country or so said the Citizens United ruling. We have political/corporate collusion masquerading as democracy. Compare this to Chavez who is trying to make it easier for common people to govern, as they do with these peoples councils.

We have an asleep populace, who do not vote, who watch tv and are uninformed boobs. In Venezuela they care more than we do. They have voted in Chavez muliple times. If during the 2012 election if Chavez loses and steps down, I hope this dictator business will cease. Being nice people we should want these countries to succeed. We may not like socialism, but it is not our place to tell them what to vote for.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:14 pm

Frank.

You're not paying attention. To me, or to the actual situation in Venezuela. (italics mine)

FrankChurch wrote:Chavez cannot, CANNOT ram through what he wants.


Congress approved laws that give the state more control over the economy and granted Chavez decree powers that permit him to rule until mid-2012 without input from legislators.

With those decree powers, which lawmakers passed Friday, Venezuela enters a new stage in Chavez's "Bolivarian Revolution," in which analysts say an increasingly erratic but powerful president consolidates control over a country in deep recession.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... =rss_world

FrankChurch wrote:The Supreme Court can revoke any law that they feel is unconstitutional--quite democratic.


Chavez loyalists rush in new top Venezuela judges
Dec 8, 2010 at 06:56 | Reuters CARACAS, Dec 7 (Reuters) - Venezuelan lawmakers allied to President Hugo Chavez named nine new Supreme Court judges on Tuesday, squeezing the vote in before a new parliament that could block the Socialist Party's picks is formed in January.

Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/news/world/deta ... z1AIbPgRXv

http://www.kyivpost.com/news/world/detail/92286/

FrankChurch wrote:The Assembly can vote down any decree!


No they cannot, in fact. "Rule by decree" means precisely the opposite. If Chavez issues a decree the National Assembly cannot countermand it.

In his own words (I know you hate this, but these are a reflection of Chavez's opinion...)

"They will not be able to create even one law, the little Yankees," said Chavez, who brands his opponents as stooges of an imperialist U.S. government. "Let's see how they are going to make laws now."
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby RocRizzo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:07 am

FrankChurch wrote: -------------

Decent video on the aspect of Peak Oil. Interesting, Greg Palast doesn't believe it. My boy Chomsky and Kunstler on the same video--neato:

http://www.thenation.com/video/157441/p ... ng-climate




Thanks for that link Frank. I'm looking forward to the rest in the series.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:58 pm

Roc, what is your slant on Chavez? You too Steve Evil.

Experts who live in the region say that Chavez cannot just ram through laws. We will just have to wait and see. Call this a case of conflicting evidence. Since our media supported the 2002 coup I have my doubts.

I will admit to being queasy about any leader having too much power. The situation there is special, which is why I tend to hold my nose. If this experiment against capitalism doesn't work many people will remain in misery for the forseeable future.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:56 pm

Like every other issue of any import, just when I think I've got a good enough grasp of Venezualla to form an opinion, new information pops up that blows me back to square one.

Basically, I've heard nothing that would make me euqate Chavez with an Hussain, an Ill Jong, a Komeni, or even a Castro. I've heard nothing about death squads, torture chambers, secret police, or labour camps. I've heard alot of bleeting from the Corporate media of the sort that I hear every time a country tries to diverge from the Washington concensus, so I take most of it with a grain of salt. I also try to see it from the perspective of people for whom the stakes are much higher than they are for me, for whom the leader of the country may mean the difference between starvation and mere hunger. I take into account that South America has been more or less ruled by the United Fruit Company for the better part of a century, that its leaders until recently were more or less chosen by the CIA, that in places like Bolivia American companies owned the drinking water, and continue to foist genetically modified seeds (with death genes) onto the peasant population, and that Chavez has survived at least two coup attempts, both backed by Washington. So, I can sort of understand the paranoia of the leader and his flock, even if my liberal sensibilites would prefer they played nicer.

I also try not to romanticize, keeping in mind that such populism rarely ends well, nor have previous attempts to drastically break with the world market. I'm long past the point where I can believe that a charismatic leader can solve the world's problems. But as far as the world's evils go, Chavez ranks quite low on my list.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:44 pm

Wonderful, Steve Evil, that was lucid, that was lovely, that was genius. Also, during the last election, foreign money hopped, skipped and ran riot to help the opposition, which it did. We pretty much know where the money came from. Remember, in our Country it is illegal to take foreign money to stop an election or change it.

You are also right that Chavez doesn't do the things other dictators do, including Uncle Fidel.

Also remember, this guy was hated on day one. Unless they were psychic and knew he would one day become a dictator, something else is afoot. We certainly don't have clean hands, being the top rogue state at this junction.

Hell, what Netanyahu does in the occupied territories is a hundred times worse than anthing Chavez does. Let's also remember that all states are naturally corrupt.

Venezuela doesn't have our history as starting as an idea. It is still trying to define what they idea is. Us putting our hubris against the progression of a bunch of poor people is frankly sick.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby RocRizzo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:45 pm

As far as I'm concerned, ANYONE who goes against American Imperialism, can't be all that bad!
I don't believe a word of the propaganda that the Corporate media keep trying to drill us about him, so I look for other sources. From what I can see, he has done well for his People, regardless of his mythological beliefs. Though some things have gone a bit rough during his leadership, and he has taken some Draconian measures to get the CIA and such out, so that Venezuelans can do better, if you want to make an omelet, you have to break at least a couple of egge.
He certainly is no pariah, as the Corporatists would have us believe, nor is he a saint. He's merely a human being, trying to do what he sees best for his People.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:22 pm

My main problem with Chavez is the cult of personality.

No revolution without ME!

Without ME no revolution!

Our founders with all their imperfections created a system that would work no matter who got elected and contained a self-correcting mechanism for change without the need for violence. George fucking Washington could have been King with a word. But he walked away. You think Hugo will walk away?

It's disgusting to hear people justify acts by leftists that they wouldn't tolerate for five minutes by the right. All because they swallow the gospel of socialism. And talking about cracking eggs and making omelets is fine unless you're the egg.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter


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