Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:53 pm

Hey, guys, you can respond to my Goldstone answers any time. You complain that I don't answer your questions, but when I do you duck it. You guys kill me..lol

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:19 pm

Chomsky discusses why anarchism is good stuff. Way back from the 70s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVxBDx9HDdI

Imagine this discussion in the US? No way. At least the radio hosts doesn't denigrate the views, like an American would--constantly interrupting, etc.

Watch the Charlie Rose interview of Chomsky for examples of our frustrations.

And, Lori, you could opt out. You just would not be part of our system. You could be in your own market utopia. But you would run to our side once your exploitation ran you crazy..lol

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:21 pm

Wilhelm Humbolt, our first anarchist. Beat that righties.

diane bartels
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:41 pm

Not yet Frank. But there are discussion groups and plotting strategies. lol

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:22 pm

I rolled my eyes when the interviewer automatically assumed that even an anarchist society needed a police force or a military. Obviously if a society is about peace, human freedom, there would be no need for aggression, outside or in. Someone could attack us, but why?

There could always be a militia built up in emergencies, but internal strife would be almost nil. With mental illness you would have a very ecumenical society, helping mentally ill people, not the neglectful society we now have.

Chomsky also made a great point about backbreaking onorous work. If you have no overseer over you even onorous work is more enjoyable.

People will garden, which is hot, hard work, but they enjoy it, because nobody tells them to do it and they can stop and rest any time they want. I used to mow the lawn and always enjoyed it, but when I was forced to mow lawns, I hated it more.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:15 pm

Look towards the bottom of the page and it gives an exerpt of the new biography of Malcolm X by the late Manning Marable. It mentions Jim Crow laws in Los Angeles and how blacks became second rate economically in La:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/04/07/reim ... -malcolm-x

Also, check out a good debate about the nature of Freedom. Benjamin Barber vs. Harry Binswanger of the Ayn Rand cult. Fun, fun:

http://www.livestream.com/aynrandcenter ... m=ui-thumb

We are the government, Harry. When you stop government you stop us.

diane bartels
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:59 pm

Frank, heres what we are gonna do. I like you personally. I think of you as a cyber friend. Some of your ideas I agree with. Most I do not. For personal reasons in my life, some of which I am about to post on the Pavy, I choose to no longer debate them with you. Because I do not refute your posts or your cites here is not to be taken as agreement or that you have stumped me. If I had world enough and time, I'd follow all your cites and research it all and debate. I dont. We are friends and will discuss music food and life. For me, Politics, Education, etc. are of the table. Love Diane.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:26 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I rolled my eyes when the interviewer automatically assumed that even an anarchist society needed a police force or a military. Obviously if a society is about peace, human freedom, there would be no need for aggression, outside or in. Someone could attack us, but why?

There could always be a militia built up in emergencies, but internal strife would be almost nil. With mental illness you would have a very ecumenical society, helping mentally ill people, not the neglectful society we now have.

Chomsky also made a great point about backbreaking onorous work. If you have no overseer over you even onorous work is more enjoyable.

People will garden, which is hot, hard work, but they enjoy it, because nobody tells them to do it and they can stop and rest any time they want. I used to mow the lawn and always enjoyed it, but when I was forced to mow lawns, I hated it more.


City in my head
Utopia
Heaven in my body
Utopia
It's time for me
For me to go.

City in my head
Utopia
Heaven in my body
Utopia
Into the sky
It rises now.

-Todd Rundgren, Utopia
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

RocRizzo
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby RocRizzo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:20 am

Frank,
Your inner Hippie is showing with that comment. People these days don't like Hippies, so you might want to watch it with that. I agree with you, but then again, I am an old Hippie.
Just FYI.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:21 pm

I eat hippies for breakfast.

-------------

Ezra, did you listen to the audio?

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:22 pm

My evidence is handed to me in scroll form from the hand of God himself. Beat that!

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:39 pm

I'm not goin' back
to Woodstock for a while,
Though I long to hear
that lonesome hippie smile.
I'm a million miles away
from that helicopter day
No, I don't believe
I'll be goin' back that way.


-Neil Young, Roll Another Number for the Road


Yes Frank I did listen to the interview with Prof Chomsky. Very interesting. And revealing. Contrary to what you probably imagine I have read deeply in the anarchist and libertarian literature. A beautiful dream. Like a lot of leftist political and social philosophy its analysis of the failings of modern industrial capitalism is spot on but its solutions are either, unworkable on a practical level, or a classic case of the cure being worse than the disease. It's critique presupposes that all the problems coming out of our human nature are solved and then it spends all its time spelling out the best way to deliver the milk.

Of course when asked to give an example of anarchism being practiced on a large scale he cites the example of the Spanish Civil War in the late 30s leading up to WWII. Of course! Chomsky makes the claim that anarchism in Spain was "destroyed from without". Well that's only partly true as a dip into George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia reveals. I hope you've read that book.

Orwell fought with one of the anarchist militias because the mainstream(!) socialist miltia was dominated by the Soviet Union and he was astute enough even at that early date to see where that would lead. It's just as true to say that the Anarchist movement in Spain was subverted by its own methods as it is to say that it was destroyed from without. Orwell illustrates exactly why. Before any action on the part of the A militia there had to be a loooong argument about it with everyone giving their opinion. And once they decided anything they couldn't count on support from any of the other A militias because they had their own plans and they couldn't rely on the socialists because they insisted that the socialists be in charge. The fascist army by contrast was a highly organized and hierarchical. The outcome of the war was no surprise to any disinterested observer.

Frank, in an age of technological specialization everyone is not qualified to have an opinion. This is more true in a modern technologically advanced society than it’s ever been. But more to the point, no one is ever going to place the needs of his community ahead of his own if he/she has a choice. No matter how benevolent you make it at some point the truncheons will come out to help folks decide to do the right thing.

Didn’t you notice how vague Prof Chomsky became when the interviewer pressed him for practical details as to how this utopian society would be attained? Doesn’t it give you pause when such a highly intelligent guy can’t figure it out?

The faults of capitalism are evident. But the system works because it presupposes people work best when they work for themselves. Better to use the state to regulate it and mitigate its excesses. That at least has the virtue of having been successful when it is tried.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

RocRizzo
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby RocRizzo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:34 pm

FrankChurch wrote:My evidence is handed to me in scroll form from the hand of God himself. Beat that!

God ain't nothing but dog spelled backwards!
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

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Steve Evil
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:13 am

I rather thought that Catalonia was an indictment of Stalinism and its socialist stooges who fought the anarchists much harder than they thought the fascists. . .but nevermind. The point stands, and the shortcommings obvious.

(My first ever concert was Neil Young and Crazy Horse. Halloween night. He closed with that number. I'll never forget it.)

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:21 pm

Who said he had the answers to everything? Organization is a speciality Chomsky cannot master, either can I, that's why I deflected Lori's rejoiner.

Michael Albert explains it the best. We already have collectives, so we already know that they can work.


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