Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:03 pm

Elementary, you end the siege you end the rockets.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:05 pm

Remember this folks, I am only talking about the violence we export not the other issues where we are low on any international list. That's a scandal in of itself. Don't make me do it. :)

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby robochrist » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:08 pm

you end the siege you end the rockets.


Hamas is the one that has to end the siege, and there will be no more Israeli rockets. THAT'S where it gets simple! And it's the ONLY thing that will make it simple.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:28 pm

Fact: Egypt brokered a cease-fire agreement a week ago; Isrsel accepted it, Hamas rejected it. Those hundreds of Palestinian deaths are on Hamas's head.

And Hamas is delighted to see as many Palestinians die as possible. They revel in Palestinian blood even more than they exult in Israeli blood -- because it provides great pictures that persuade fools like Frank that Israel is the bad guy. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinian life. They never have. Hamas has done nothing for the Palestinians since they took control of Gaza. Palestinians are just so much raw meat for them to shred in their propaganda grinder --literally. The more dead Palestinians, the better for their cause, which is a fanatical desire to wipe out Israel.. That's why Hamas hides their rockets and bombs and even tunnel entrances in the homes of ordinary Palestinians' homes -- so that when Israel tries to take out those rockets (thousands of them, aimed, however ineptly, at Israeli towns and cities), they will invariably hit civilians and the pictures of dead Gazans will immediately circulate around the world. Israel has been actually calling Gazans on their cell phones to warn them to leave their homes before an attack. Can you even imagine Hamas calling Israelis to say, "Excuse me, but we're dropping bombs on your town this afternoon, so might be better spending the day at the beach. Thank you for your patience." Dream on.

Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons. They could flatten Gaza before lunch if they wanted to. If Hamas had nuclear weapons, Israel -- including all Arab Israelis -- would be just smoking ruins now. Hamas does not care about human life, Arab or Israeli. They rely on "useful idiots" like Frank to think otherwise.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:30 pm

Robert, dial the insults back.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:31 pm

This is a standard moral principle, so the fact that it has to be uttered is shocking: If Israel was under siege and they shot rockets into Gaza, would I support that the superior force of the State of Gaza attack Israeli civilians? You know the answer.

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robochrist
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby robochrist » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:34 pm

Frank, you sit in denial worse than anyone I've ever seen. Here's the moral standard: Hamas is killing their own people

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:20 pm

Hamas has done nothing for the Palestinians since they took control of Gaza. Palestinians are just so much raw meat for them to shred in their propaganda grinder --literally. The more dead Palestinians, the better for their cause, which is a fanatical desire to wipe out Israel.. That's why Hamas hides their rockets and bombs and even tunnel entrances in the homes of ordinary Palestinians' homes -- so that when Israel tries to take out those rockets (thousands of them, aimed, however ineptly, at Israeli towns and cities), they will invariably hit civilians and the pictures of dead Gazans will immediately circulate around the world.

Absolutely true. So why is Israel so enthusiastic about doing Hamas' work for them? The Israelis can't possibly destroy Hamas militarily. All the slaughter is doing is driving the Palestinians right back into Hamas' hands. The Palestinians despise Hamas. But now they have nowhere else to go. The Israelis have seen to that. It would have taken an almost superhuman self-discipline to ride out what were largely ineffectual rocket attacks and let time and the Palestinians do their work for them. What a self-defeating policy! But as the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer then every problem begins to look like a nail.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:35 pm

Ezra -- Israel knows that the longer the military invenention gones on, the worse they look and the more "global support" they lose; they're hoping they can "mow the lawn" (as they call it in Israel) as quickly as possible. But the past seven years of rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel finally became too unacceptable to bear. The three dead Israeli teens killed by Hamas terrorists using tunnels to sneak into israel was the last straw. The first job of any government is to protect its people, and Netanyahu knew that the Israeli people had reached a breaking point -- even if large numbers of citizens don't get killed by the Hamas rockets (the Iron Dome technology intercepts about 90% of them, though it doesn't stop falling metal and shrapnel), the accumulated effect of living in terror day-to-day is eventually unviable. Israel will take the public relations hit and do its best to destroy the tunnels and degrade Hamas's ability to launch rockets and bombs, but as every suburgan gardener knows, you have to eventually mow the lawn again. Or move to an apartment building. Unfortunately, Israel has no place to move to. They have no other choice but to defend themselves and hope that someday the Palestinian leadership will follow reason instead of fanatic faith.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:38 pm

Steve, I apologize for calling Frank a fool, and even for calling him a "useful idiot," though I thought he'd be pleased I was using one of Lenin's favorite terms. Lenin called supporters of the Soviet Union in the West useful idiots, and said that "the capitalists will sell us the rope with which we'll hang them." I'm sorry if my historical references and sarcasm caused any harm.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:08 pm

I've been carefully reading the posts over the past day or so, and there's a lot to respond to. But don't worry, I won't. I'll just say that Mark's posts -- short essays, really -- are especially outstanding because of their nuance and thoughtfulness, in my view, at least. To be sure, I think Mark sometimes attacks a cartoon=conservative who doesn't looks or sound or believe the things that conservative friends of mine or top conservative writers I read think and say. But at least he gives them more respect than Frank does. And though I share many enthusiasms in film and TV and literature with Robo, I have to say he often lacks that nuance Mark dispslays: It's as if Robo thought all conservatives are either small town Babbitt morons thumping their Bibles, right out of a Sinclair Lewis novel; or they're Trumpish Mr. Moneybags wanting to let all poor people in America die and go to war to kill off the dark poor people in the rest of the world. Again, it's an amusing, though not very original cartoon -- something right of a 1930s issue of The New Masses. A real critique can be made of conservatism(s) -- there's more than one kind -- but caricature is not going to change any minds. Certainly not mine. If I'm guilty of presenting a caricatured portrait of liberals and lefts at times, I'll cop to that and add that I'll try to do better. To think harder, more clearly, more contextually. Mark is a good standard to follow, even though we may disagree on many things. (But I strongly agree with many other things he's written.)

After reading all these posts, I can't help but think of an essay in Krauthammer's new book, the last essay, titled "Decline is a Choice." Throughout American -- and world --- history, experts have confidently announced a country, a city, a culture's inevitable decline, only to be confronted by someone who refuses to accept decline as inevitable. For decades, people said New York City was ungoverhnable, unliveable, and hopelessly in decline; Rudy Guiliani refused to accept that. They said nothing could be done about the terrifying rise in crime year after year, and Guiliani said, no, you can dramatically reduce crime -- if you want to. Many in England (and elsewhere) said that Nazi Germany was the "inevitable way of the future" (thank you Ambassador Joseph Kennedy), and that England just had to accept defeat; Churchill said, "Never, never, never, never," and virtually alone for two years, led England against the Nazi behemoth. I could cite a dozen other examples, but you get the idea. There will always be people who say, "Oh no, they didn't stop the inevitable decline, they just slowed it down a little, don't be a fool" -- but the "fools" know better. They're the ones who were able to walk the streets of New York again at night; they were the British who didn't have to accept defeat and occupation and worse. Defeat is a choice. I'm not big on inspirational messages, but that one has a certain -- shall we say? -- inevitable resonance.

To Earl Wells: I haven't read Tony Judt's Postwar, but I did recently read his short book Ill Fares the Land, a cogent summary of what he most deeply thought about the world just before he died. Judt was very much a man of the left, a firm believer in social democracy, but his book was fair and I learned some things from it. I don't just read books by people I agree with; as Jay Nordlinger said, "that's eating political ice cream; your diet neads fiber as well." But then, there I go, quoting someone I agree with. What the hell, I love ice cream.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:09 pm

By the way, Robo, I'm delighted that you're taking such a strong stand against Hamas. But I think I told you that already.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:12 pm

FrankChurch wrote:This is a standard moral principle, so the fact that it has to be uttered is shocking: If Israel was under siege and they shot rockets into Gaza, would I support that the superior force of the State of Gaza attack Israeli civilians? You know the answer.

Frank, I can't imagine you supporting Israel under any circumstances.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:43 pm

Robert Nason wrote:Steve, I apologize for calling Frank a fool, and even for calling him a "useful idiot," though I thought he'd be pleased I was using one of Lenin's favorite terms. Lenin called supporters of the Soviet Union in the West useful idiots, and said that "the capitalists will sell us the rope with which we'll hang them." I'm sorry if my historical references and sarcasm caused any harm.


If you're calling out an historic reference, say so. Otherwise, assume you're being insulting.

(BTW-Assume I'm fairly well educated on such things, having a father who was intimately involved with The Topic. Moreso than anybody on this forum. Being so sure others will see the allusion is a form of pretension. Or a deliberate cover for an insult. Assume the latter with me and we're good.)

That's the problem with the internet, you intellectuals leave the rest of us in the weeds.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Robert Nason
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Robert Nason » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:05 pm

Barber: Understood. (I can just imagine the stimulating conversations you had around your dinner table while growing up! And I'm being completely serious when I say that.)
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion


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