Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:49 am

Well said and let's not let the rest of the Arab states off the hook. They use the Palestinian cause as an issue to attack Israel and the US but they treat the Palestinians themselves like shit. The Egyptians are especially despicable. They tacitly if not explicitly supported the recent Israeli invasion. They have a wall on their side of the border too you see.

Folks even as we chat here so enjoyably our Iranian brothers and sisters are struggling to overcome true Islamofascism. It will be a long bloody struggle but I think they've passed the tipping point where things can settle back into equalibrium. I thank Cthulhu that Bush/Chaney/McCain are not in power cause we would have already bombed or invaded and this would undermine the dissidents not help them. Obama must speak out and yes impose sanctions.

There's a lot of hand-wringing on the left because of our past crimes and mistakes in Iran but what happened in the past must not stop us from realizing what's happening now.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:56 am

Yea, let's sanction Iran so that the brave demonstrators will hate us. Best to let democracy work. They may overthrow the mullahs just yet.

States have more responsibilities than stateless actors. International law reigns in states, especially.

The terror on the Israeli side is far worse. Moral relativism aint hunting here.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:42 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Yea, let's sanction Iran so that the brave demonstrators will hate us. Best to let democracy work. They may overthrow the mullahs just yet.


I hope, sincerely, you're correct but I don't believe they will let it happen. Tienanmen anyone?

FrankChurch wrote:States have more responsibilities than stateless actors. International law reigns in states, especially.


Not exactly. States accept more responsibility than stateless actors. Stateless actors tend to believe laws do not apply to themselves, and that the end justifies the means. It's okay to kill someone because you're making a statement. But if a state retaliates for your murder, they're being brutal.

FrankChurch wrote:The terror on the Israeli side is far worse. Moral relativism aint hunting here.


Oddly enough, when the terrorist strikes cease Israel seems to be unlikely to use force. Without a provocation they have no authority to act. But somehow the organizations dedicated to Israel's destruction don't seem willing to stop shooting, which only begs an Israeli response. Israel's stated goal is a secure homeland. Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of Israel.

Stateless actors behave irresponsibly and you say "well, they're stateless actors" and shrug. That is moral relativism.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:17 pm

A good piece from the NYT about the human cost and reactions to the Israeli gov't./Hamas conflict:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/world/middleeast/31children.html?em

This points out the stupidity of carpet-bombing either side with blame. The Palestinian family is being supported by the state of Israel, after concerted efforts on the part of Israelis who got to know them in the hospital. The Israeli family and the Palestinian family were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Reports like this one show that there is grass-roots support for peace on both sides. So perhaps it is the hard-core, "scorched earth" policies of the governments in power that is to blame.

Frank, I'd like you to read something:
Warning: this is graphic and horrific and TRUE
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/explorer/4087/Overview11#tab-mengele

Nine million people were singled out to be butchered in the most inhumane ways because they were Jews. Yes, I know that other groups were in the concentration camps as well. But they were primarily designed to eliminate the "Jewish race", whatever artificial or real construct that is.

Can you, just for a moment, put yourself in the shoes of someone who either survived the Shoah, is related to someone who did, or knows/is related to someone who died? There was NO PLACE safe for Jews in Europe in the 1940's.

We've had our genocides here in America--the Native Americans--but until the Nazis went after the Jews it hadn't been carried out with such efficiency, precision, and brutality conducted by a master plan.

Can't you see what the state of Israel means to Jews? It's a place on the earth where any Jew can call Home, can (theoretically) be safe from persecution for being Jewish. OK, I know there have recently been anti-Semitic attacks in Israel , primarily by settlers from the former Soviet Union; there are schisms between various ..um...branches(?) of Judaism. (I'm not sure how to designate what I've read of "radical" Orthodox Jews attacking soldiers or other Jewish Israeli citizens for not being observant enough.)

But it's a concrete, nation-state way of saying "We will NEVER forget: NEVER again".

My opinion is that none of the non-M.O.T. of us can really get it.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Gwynnie, I know you didn't just accuse me of downplaying the holocaust, one of the greatest acts of insanity in world history? See, this is why I will no longer mention this one issue. Americans are completely propagandized in this area, like no other.

Israel is a terrorist government. Politically Correct finger waving will not change this subject. Arabs didn't kill the jews, Germans did. Would Israel be justified in nuking Germany right now? You know the answer.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:28 pm

Arabs didn't kill the jews, Germans did.


So. Frank. You're telling me that as a result of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, that it's Israel's fault that a) Palestinian arabs proactively attack Palestinian jews in a civil war in 1947? Or that b) immediately following, it wasn't the "Arab Liberation Army" (Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians) which attacked Israel in 1948???

I think your own history is a bit revisionist.

And, I might note that Israel wouldn't attack Germany NOW because Germany has fully renounced the Holocaust and is an Ally of Israel.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:06 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Gwynnie, I know you didn't just accuse me of downplaying the holocaust, one of the greatest acts of insanity in world history? See, this is why I will no longer mention this one issue. Americans are completely propagandized in this area, like no other.


Frankie, I'm not accusing. I'm just trying to...get into your head what the state of Israel means to Jews. This has a direct bearing on why the government of Israel won't negotiate with states or political entities whose stated intent is the destruction of Israel--"driving the Jews into the sea". And, did you read the Mengele link? Joseph Mengele was allowed by the nation of Argentina to live, under his own name, to start a pharmaceutical business, again under his own name without fear of arrest post WWII. They flat out refused to hand him over to Israel, the US or the UK. There is still a lot of nationalized anti-Semitism in the world.

And, yeah, I'm propagandized. I'm a massage therapist. I used to do massage for Hospice. One of my clients was a Jewish woman who had survived the Shoah and was now dying. You don't tentatively, gingerly and gently, massage over skin grafts and needle marks like that without getting just a little "propagandized". You don't hold a sobbing, frail woman in your arms and not get a little "propagandized".

FrankChurch wrote:Israel is a terrorist government. Politically Correct finger waving will not change this subject. Arabs didn't kill the jews, Germans did. Would Israel be justified in nuking Germany right now? You know the answer.


Iran is a terrorist government. They are killing their own people for standing up for democracy. Where is your righteous indignation there? Or is that ok because it's Persian on Persian or Muslim on Muslim violence?

What about Egypt, where political dissidents are taken away and killed? Or Pakistan vis a vis India? It's been proved that the Mumbai bombers were trained by Pakistani special forces.

How about Saudi Arabia, where you can be executed (beheaded by a sword) for sorcery? Isn't that a little extremist?

Like it or not, Frank, Israel is the one functional democracy in the whole Middle East. (Turkey is pushing for inclusion in the E.U. so I'm grouping them with Europe.) At least the Palestinians are franchised in Israel. They voted in Hamas, which is now lobbing missiles at Israel. And Israel let them do it. The government of Israel did not immediately invade when Hamas was elected.

I'm not saying that Israel isn't guilty of war crimes in Gaza, clearly they are, based on statements in the Jerusalem Post by soldiers. But look---The Jerusalem Post reported it--Israeli soldiers came forth and said it! In a terrorist state, such as the Taliban, any opposition or admission of guilt would lead to execution on the spot.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:07 pm

I was reading 181. I guess Barber didn't read about all the rights arabs should be afforded in the new state, a new state that does not exist, mainly because Israel didn't allow it, because they wanted to take the entire state of Israel proper, including the arab parts. Just as you had westward expansion here, in Israel in the Zionists wanted the whole enchilada, arabs be damned. Arab countries knew that, rightly fighting against it. Colonialism at its best.

Bennie Morris, the LEADING Israeli historian, mentions the ethnic cleansing. He supports it. The Arabs were right to be outraged at the forcing of a state, a state that already had arabs living there. This was seen as a possible takeover of all of the middle east, a valid fear.

They should have mandated a federation. Let arabs, Jews, Christians, all live in one state, with equal standing. The arabs may have gone for that. We will never know. Our support and funding of dictatorships in the middle east proved the arabs were right to be paranoid.

We stopped secularism in Egypt, because the nationalist leader didn't follow orders. We pay off Egypt, who now will not let convoys of aid into Gaza. A Joy of American liberalism.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:29 pm

You guys are wasting your time trying to get Frank to see reason. On the issue of Israel his mind is made up, he drank the kool-aid, he signed up for life, he cashed the check, he saw the light, he gave at the office, he crossed the effing Rubicon.

No doubt castes its corrosive shadow upon his monstrous certitude.

Frank knows which way the wind blows.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:36 pm

Ezra, I will take certitude over liberal guilt any ole day. Kiss.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:13 pm

You guys ever hear of the Goldstone report? Richard Goldstone, a respected judge out of South Africa was head of a UN investigation into war crimes during the Gaza offensive. Israel hesitated, but later accepted Goldstone, since he was so respected. Goldstone found war crimes done by both Hamas and Israel, finding most of the crimes done by Israel. Hamas tortured fellow Palestinians, who were seen as apostates, but Israeli soldiers went against orders and treated Gaza like a free fire zone. The Goldstone report was highly respected everywhere except--Surprise, surprise, Israel and the US. Israel rejected it outright. The once respected Richard Goldstone was now a lying weasel. How convenient. Hamas rejected parts of it as well. The Us Congress had a special vote on the report. They rejected its findings by a large margin. Basically, the Us and Israel are admitting that they reject human rights and international law. When two states do that they deserve nothing but scorn, not praise. They can no longer be trusted.

Israel is not a signitary to the International Criminal Court, so the court cannot do a thing. That is another proof that Israel does not respect international norms of law. We should then not believe a word they say or trust their judgement. They are saying, we do not have to follow the rules, fuck off! Hamas is a stateless organization, so the court can do nothing with them as well. Blame Hamas, fine, but without punishment on both sides there cannot be true justice. This is my only point. The blockade and occupation of Gaza is fostering the destruction of Israel. Israel has its own life in its grasp, but refuses to make peace. And you wonder why arabs don't trust them. Until they admire equality in international norms nobody should.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:23 pm

I'm with Richard Falk, UN high commissioner on human rights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchKqkya ... re=channel

I'll take it.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:23 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I'm with Richard Falk, UN high commissioner on human rights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchKqkya ... re=channel

I'll take it.


Let's break it down. Richard Falk, UN high commissioner on human rights, says that the most probable acceptable solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a "single-state solution", similar to South Africa.

But Frank, a "single-state solution" can never include the option, according to Falk, of Israel as a Jewish state with a universal Jewish right of return. That's why I was making, or attempting to make, the points I was above. Jews have been persecuted throughout history to an unprecedented degree. The whole point of Israel is to create a Jewish state with Jewish right of return. It's something that is the cornerstone to Israel's existence--saving Jews by providing a homeland where there will never be fear of persecution for being Jewish.

Let's look at Israel's neighbors. Jordan should cede land to the Palestinians. And Egypt. Why did the Palestinians have to suffer so in Jordanian refugee camps? If the Arab world was truly interested in settling the Palestinians, they would use the tremendous oil wealth to create a Palestinian state. But the purpose isn't to help the Palestinians, it's to wipe out Israel.

"Anti-Zionism" is just new code for "anti-Semitism". Frank, can you imagine, can you empathize for a moment with having something about your being, which you cannot change, which could cause you to be attacked, arrested, killed or driven out of your home? That's what Jews have lived with for centuries. You can't change being Jewish. During the Shoah, people who were three generations removed from their Jewish ancestors were rounded up and sent to the concentration camps.

Enough from the shiksa in the corner wearing a schmata on her head.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:23 pm

Jews get a homeland but not arabs? Very interesting logic. The land was stolen, you get that? The land already had arabs on it and they were ethnically cleansed. No one group has a right to land. I take it the injuns got what they deserved as well.

The Zionists wanted the entire thing. They wanted a greater Israel, because of their anti-arab racism, you get that? Arabs have been persecuted for thousands of years too. There is no contest on who is most victimized. Dead is dead. Israel is now on the other side of history. They are the aggressors, the Palestinians are the victims. The person with the biggest gun becomes the thug. Actual anti-semitism is very low compared to racism against brown people or the poor. Any hate is caused by the illegal collective punishment and occupation of Israel.

States are illegitimate. I am against religious states. There should not be a Jewish state, just as there should never be a Christian state or Muslim state.

Arabs tend to support a two-state solution, but Israel and the Us keep blocking it. Mainly so Israel can annex more land and Christian America can usher in the second coming.

All people are equal. No one group should have special rights, no matter their history. There is no holy state. You either follow international norms or get arrested.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:24 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Jews get a homeland but not arabs? Very interesting logic.

As of November 2009
the Arab League members are: Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Morocco,Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Chad, Tunisia, Somalia, Libya, Jordan, Eritrea,United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Palestine, Mauritania, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Djibouti, Bahrain, Comoros, Western Sahara.
Total members of Arab homelands: 360,029,936
Total number of Israeli Jews: 5,634,300
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_countries_by_population

FrankChurch wrote:The land was stolen, you get that?
Yes, by Britain and other colonial powers.

FrankChurch wrote:The land already had arabs on it and they were ethnically cleansed.
Yes, by Britain, by the Ottoman Turks, and by fellow Arabs. Not by the Jews.

FrankChurch wrote:No one group has a right to land.
I take it you don't own property or pay rent, then?

FrankChurch wrote:I take it the injuns got what they deserved as well.

Casinos. And yes, the Native Americans were wiped out, primarily by disease from the European colonists. This is a genocide of massive proportions which has never been satisfactorally addressed in American history textbooks.

FrankChurch wrote:The Zionists wanted the entire thing. They wanted a greater Israel, because of their anti-arab racism, you get that?

No, Frank. The Zionists wanted a Jewish homeland because Six Million Jews had just been brutally and systematically exterminated in "single state" countries in Europe. That's what I'm trying to get across to you. You aren't Jewish. You don't understand the level of hatred and persecution that comes with it.

FrankChurch wrote:Arabs have been persecuted for thousands of years too.

Yes, by fellow Arabs, by the Persians, by the Huns, by the Mongols, by the Ottoman Turks -- all of whom ended up converting to Islam and becoming rather assimilated. Or should they pay reparations? I challenge you to find the living relatives of Genghis Khan and petition for redress against the Arabs in the 12th century.

FrankChurch wrote:States are illegitimate.

Especially states of mind induced by illegal psychoactive drugs, of which I'm sure you're vehemently opposed.

FrankChurch wrote:I am against religious states. There should not be a Jewish state, just as there should never be a Christian state or Muslim state.

Where is your fervor against Vatican City and Saudi Arabia? Or don't they count?

FrankChurch wrote:Arabs tend to support a two-state solution, but Israel and the Us keep blocking it.

1. "In January 2009, Muammar al-Gaddafi contributed an editorial to the New York Times, suggesting that he was in favor of a single-state solution to the Israeli and Palestinian conflicts that moved beyond old conflicts and looked to a unified future of shared culture and mutual respect." "The One-State Solution", New York Times 22 January 2009
2. In November 2009, Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat proposed the adoption of the one-state solution if Israel didn't halt settlement construction.
3. Countries that officially only recognize a single-state -- Palestine -- as of September 2009: North Korea, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Somalia, Mauritania, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Djibouti, Bahrain, Comoros, Western Sahara, Indonesia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Israel-Palestine_Diplomacy.svg

FrankChurch wrote:All people are equal. No one group should have special rights, no matter their history.

So I take it you write letters to your Congresspeople to rescind EEO, the rights to tribal lands, and the franchise for African-Americans and women?

FrankChurch wrote:There is no holy state.

Care to write some letters and e-mails stating that to the Saudi embassy in Washington, as well as the Vatican City envoy? Wonder to what list that would get you added.

FrankChurch wrote:You either follow international norms or get arrested.

By whom, Frank? Are you proposing a fascist international police state? Kiss. Runz.


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