Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:45 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I have no idea whatsoever what professional means. If you tell someone what's going on you are a journalist.
No. If you're paid and trained as a journalist you're a professional. Otherwise you're just a volunteer, no matter how talented. (See Ellison's "Pay The Writer".)

FrankChurch wrote: This is the punk ethic writ large. Anybody can be a good journalist, if they understand the ethics behind it.
No. They can't. Ethics are only a part of the skillset. There are also some writing/reporting skills, the ability to convey the information efficiently and effectively, and the ability to cover a story as it should be covered.

FrankChurch wrote:I can name a billion "professional" Journalists who are complete hacks--Thomas Friedman for one.
So, for every billion professionals hack you can name, I will name a thousand times that number in journalist wannabees who are even worse hacks. What's your point?

FrankChurch wrote: Bob Dylan is a journalist, even Ozzy with War Pigs. Michael Moore is a slanted journalist, but he is one.
No, Ozzy and Dylan were commentators and singers and would tell you as such. Moore is a journalist, with a minor in entertainment.

FrankChurch wrote: As John Stewart Mill said, you have to have all sides included in looking at facts.
Mill is wrong. You have to have all pertinent sides. There's a lot of chaff that could be included but is unnecessary. Having all sides represented is like teaching evolutionary science in the classroom and insisting Creationism must be considered.

FrankChurch wrote:Disagreeable opinions and agreeable, because you never know when an agreeable opinion will become disagreeable and the inverse. Slavery used to be agreeable, now it is verboten. Forced sterilization is still agreeable in China. I do think there should be editorial standards, but that doesn't mean you can decide Noam Chomsky is a kook but Richard Haas is wonderful.


Vast difference between social theory/practice and journalistic integrity. I don't get your connection.

And I CAN reach the conclusion Chomsky is a kook and Haas is wonderful if I've read their works and can honestly report my findings. The people who don't do the legwork -- like the amateurs you're defending -- are the ones you're objecting to.


(BTW - Have you noticed you've boxed yourself in regarding the Palestinian situation? You're demanding all sides need to be understood and considered for the entire story to be told, but you've said on many occasion you don't care about the Israeli government's point of view.)
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:47 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Steve Evil, name some of these outstanding journalists? hehe.


I'm the other Steve, but Matt Taibbi. Edward R Murrow. Woodward and Bernstein.

Lois Lane.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:01 pm

Barber wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:Steve Evil, name some of these outstanding journalists? hehe.


I'm the other Steve, but Matt Taibbi. Edward R Murrow. Woodward and Bernstein.

Lois Lane.


Hey lets not forget anyone who writes for The Huffington Post, or the Daily Beast. I disagree with whomever said bloggers cannot be journalists. It's rare, but it does occur.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:10 pm

I think the difference is that the majority of bloggers on Huffpost are professional writers of some kind in the outside world.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:29 pm

Matt Taibbi is on the left. Taibbi likes Chomsky, by the way..lol

Here's mine: Robert Fisk, John Pilger, Chris Hedges, Jeff Cohen, Robert Dreyfuss, Joshua Holland, Dean Baker, I.F. Stone, Ida Tarbell, Upton Sinclair.

Barber, you are a journalist, you get a six figure income and I'm the man who gives you the paycheck. I tell you to kill an important story because it is "too risky," and if you don't kill it you will be fired, not only that, you will never work again. We know what choice you would take. Why do you think Tom Brokaw is such a scumbag? He aint going to risk those millions of dollars on a story.

Woodward is too close to power. You don't get open access to George Bush by being a good journalist.

Don't forget that Watergate was a tea party. The illegal bombing of Cambodia, Laos, cointelpro was much worse than breaking into an office with the keystone cops.

I'd make a guess that Taibbi has very low opinions of most professional journalists, at least here.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:47 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Steve Evil, name some of these outstanding journalists? hehe.


What outstanding journalists? I never mentioned any. Incidentally, Geezer Butler wrote the lyrics for "War Pigs".

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:22 pm

You might even see an editorial headline like "Capitalism Has Failed, So Why Not Try Socialism?"

Except of course the problem with capitalism is that it works all too well. Unrestrained, unregulated it eats up everything in its path. Restrained and regulated however in what sense can it be said to be a failure? It has provided most people in the West with the highest standard of living in the history of the human race. Surely there are inequities and as Jesus said, the poor we have with us always. But being poor in the 21st century in the West is not like being poor in first century Palestine.

Socialism on the other hand has been an unmitigated disaster wherever it has been tried. Far from being progressive the Socialist State is the most reactionary of societies, a throwback to those monolithic Bronze Age states of the Near East. And no matter how libertarian its purport it inevitably succumbs to authoritarianism because most folks have to be encouraged at gunpoint to do the Right Thing and subsume their own private interests to the social ideal.

The entire project is always tainted with ideology, being little better than a secular substitute religion. At least the Boss man will give you a day off and leave you the hell alone but you can never get away from The People. Always another sermon, worse than fucking church.

Better the admittedly flawed but authentic radicalism of the Founders of this country who knew that the proper function of the state should first be to safeguard the liberties of its citizens.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:54 am

Brialliabtly said ezra. What I have wanted to say here for awhile but didn't have the skills to get into words. Diane

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:55 am

Diane can type. Not.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:09 pm

Thanks for the laugh, Ezra. Hundreds of millions dead, mass starvation, inequality, yea, capitalism is peachy.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:14 pm

Well there are different modes of socialism than the soviet model. . .arguably any kind of restraint or regulation of capitalism is a socialist ideal. Socialism has informed many of the world's most advanced democracies, in the form of the welfare state, universal health care, labour laws. . . Collective action and collective bargaining on the part of "the workers" has given us the weekend, the minimum wage, severance pay, child labour laws, holidays, the eight-hour work day. . .These things did not spring up naturally from pure market capitalism. People had to fight for them, against the interest of the market place. In many parts of the world people are still fighting for them. This I think is where real socialism comes in.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:18 pm

Without state intervention markets would not work. We have mixed economies--mixes of socialism and markets. Sure, the bailouts of the banks are bad socialism, but our leaders support that kind. The tax cuts are bad socialism as well.

The more socialism mixed in the more freedom. Norway, Sweden, France, lust.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:15 pm

Thank you Democracynow for telling us about the real Richard Holbrooke:

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/15/ ... emembering

Don't worry, these are two very professional journalists. Can't wait to see that Pilger doc. His defense of Chavez was legendary. Winks at Ezra.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:57 pm

In a nutshell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7nHJ8sD ... re=channel

Professional or not, the main point about any journalism is what do you report and why?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:37 pm

Regulated and restrained capitalism (which I could've sworn I made clear I fully support) is still capitalism. Unemployment insurance and universal health care do not the socialist state make.

The difference between the US and Western Europe is simply the degree to which capitalism is regulated and restrained. There are plenty of millionaires in Western Europe.

Certainly there are many other socialist models than the Soviet model. But one looks in vain for an example of a modern technologically advanced libertarian state organized along those lines.

Why not just admit that capitalism works and do our best to mitigate its excesses?

Frank wants Utopia which is greek for nowhere.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter


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