Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:11 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Speaking of Disney:

http://www.alternet.org/books/150410/ho ... _our_kids/

There's also the fact that Disney clothes are made with sweatshop labor. Childhood fed to gullible tots by the Disney silver spoon, while the diaper is filled with victims.
:roll: and don't forget blah blah !

yes frank;
and yet, those sweatshop workers actually scrambled for those jobs, and still compete for them.
international labor laws chase companys across the globe. This is news to you ?

how many people do you suppose feed their families by making all this shit no one actually needs ?
how many people do you suppose feed their families by making bullets ?
or designing, selling, transporting and then recycling what's profitable and trashing the rest ?
(nothing is truly wasted, it's just in the dump. and no, i'm not ignorant of pollution)

consumer culture may indeed be a dead end deal.
(seems that way to me)
but, people want what they want.
most opt for the pursuit of sex, drugs and rock and roll.
in the process; they buy lotsa useless crap.

it seems that what you want most is to judge the producers.
point your finger and condemn them.

i agree with you on many of the things you dissaprove.

but frankie; the consumer is king, you've got to try to keep that in mind.
it is the consumer you must convince.
the "gullible masses" as you so empathetically refer to them.
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:21 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Then ban voting.


I'm not sure I see the connection between voting and group violence, mainly as one is conducted in an orderly fashion and the other is not. . .

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:38 pm

Steve E.
i can never hope to understand what is on frank's ..mind.
or should i say that "i hope i can never..." , no... well, whatever...

i think he may have refered to your distrust of the mob as in "mob rule".
also refered to as democracy; rule by the many?
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:38 pm

If you don't trust the mob you surely don't let them vote.

The anarchists and agrarian socialists like the idea of a lottery--you pick a regular person and they serve. If they do a bad job or don't like it you pick someone else from the lottery.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:08 pm

wow
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:10 pm

I've been waiting, patiently, for the Republicans in the House to make a truly stupid mistake with their lack of compromise and aggressivezeal to impart their own brand of justice.

Never expected it to be this big of a boner.


House Republicans seek IRS probe of AARP

WASHINGTON – AARP lobbied for the new health care law and now it stands to profit, Republican lawmakers charged Wednesday as they called for the IRS to investigate whether the powerful interest group representing older Americans should be stripped of its federal tax exemption.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110330/ap_on_re_us/us_aarp_probe


For those of you not keeping track, the elderly comprise a fundamental base for the right. Expect the AARP to fight back aggressively, and they have a very effective marketing machine.

Nothing screws politicians like an angry senior citizen.

Barber
AARP Member since February, 2011.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:16 pm

FrankChurch wrote:If you don't trust the mob you surely don't let them vote.

The anarchists and agrarian socialists like the idea of a lottery--you pick a regular person and they serve. If they do a bad job or don't like it you pick someone else from the lottery.


I can think of so many reasons why that is NOT the way to run anything, 'specially a nation. Who keeps track of those who don't want to do the job? What is to keep someone from making the lottery illegal and thereby becoming a dictator? What happens if you pick someone who isn't mentally competent?

Answer those for me Frank and I'll give you some more.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:06 pm

Obviously, people would be more civically responsible then they are now. They would need to be.

Let's not forget that Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman were actually elected! A civically responsible baker or butcher would beat those bitches any ole day.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:44 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Obviously, people would be more civically responsible then they are now. They would need to be.

Let's not forget that Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman were actually elected! A civically responsible baker or butcher would beat those bitches any ole day.


Frank, you make your own argument against your position. The fact that people already vote without thinking for themselves. Wishing that it were different is idealistic but not practical. Americans elected Palin and Bachman. They listen to Limbaugh and Back and OReilly. A civically responsible butcher would get butchered. Torn up, shredded and left for jerky in the sun.

A butcher would make a lousy President. Or lousy Senator. Or Legislator. Why do we keep pushing for mediocre everymen (and women) when what is required is excellence.

I don't WANT amateurs making the laws. I don't WANT people who do not bother learning about issues making decisions about how we live our lives.

Wishing for a more educated voter, and more educated populace, is a wonderful goal. But when you're handed beef shank, only a fool expects to plate a tenderloin steak.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:12 am

Barber wrote:I've been waiting, patiently, for the Republicans in the House to make a truly stupid mistake with their lack of compromise and aggressivezeal to impart their own brand of justice...
House Republicans seek IRS probe of AARP
of the two arms of aarp; one is classed as non profit/tax exempt.

kinda like ... a church. Have the scientologists been looked at ?

yes steve, expecting a non-profit to actually fit the law can be political suicide for the boner republicans.
do you see this investigation as meaningless; other than as vindictive act ?
do you actually hope to see a party demonized ("their own brand of justice")... for upholding the law ("a truly stupid mistake") ?

(not that they are not demons, a cult certainly, but i won't argue that now)

maybe the democrats can get even more brownie points by insisting that; even if aarp is misstrucured or scamming,

"it's only the republican cult's "aggressivezeal to impart their own brand of justice" "
(not actually the "real" justice practiced only by the non-demonic democrats),

the dems would never dream of pestering such an obviously untouchable, august, sacred lobby...
not with something as petty and mundane as tax law !
"we would never show "their (repub) lack of compromise", the aarp should only pay half of what every other body would pay !"

yeah; that could work.

but steve;
"waiting, patiently" ?
as if for an inevitable event ?
there have been sooo many that you've pointed out with near giddy delight already.
We love to see you so happy.
i'll assume you mean that this is the best mistake so far ?
i'm sure you'll enjoy many more.
cults screw up aaall the time. :)
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:39 am

cynic wrote:
Barber wrote:I've been waiting, patiently, for the Republicans in the House to make a truly stupid mistake with their lack of compromise and aggressivezeal to impart their own brand of justice...
House Republicans seek IRS probe of AARP
of the two arms of aarp; one is classed as non profit/tax exempt.

kinda like ... a church. Have the scientologists been looked at ?

yes steve, expecting a non-profit to actually fit the law can be political suicide for the boner republicans.
do you see this investigation as meaningless; other than as vindictive act ?
do you actually hope to see a party demonized ("their own brand of justice")... for upholding the law ("a truly stupid mistake") ?

(not that they are not demons, a cult certainly, but i won't argue that now)

maybe the democrats can get even more brownie points by insisting that; even if aarp is misstrucured or scamming,

"it's only the republican cult's "aggressivezeal to impart their own brand of justice" "
(not actually the "real" justice practiced only by the non-demonic democrats),

the dems would never dream of pestering such an obviously untouchable, august, sacred lobby...
not with something as petty and mundane as tax law !
"we would never show "their (repub) lack of compromise", the aarp should only pay half of what every other body would pay !"

yeah; that could work.

but steve;
"waiting, patiently" ?
as if for an inevitable event ?
there have been sooo many that you've pointed out with near giddy delight already.
We love to see you so happy.
i'll assume you mean that this is the best mistake so far ?
i'm sure you'll enjoy many more.
cults screw up aaall the time. :)



Boy. You see hypocrisy and duplicity virtually everywhere, don't you? I admire your zeal in pointing it out. Repeatedly.

The GOP has long prided itself of being "Law and Order", but only when it was convenient for them. There are many examples in which they looked the other way even when confronted by Constitutional issues. In a small way I applaud them for reducing their double standard enough to attack one of their major constituencies. It is similar, as you point out, to a scenario in which Dems suggested a similar investigation of the AFL/CIO.

"Waiting patiently". Yes, I do love tweaking Conservatives, largely over their aggression and what I perceive to be combative and unhelpful stands. In this case, however, I have been waiting for a mistake of this magnitude, knowing it was coming just not the degree or character of the mistake. Do I believe it's a mistake to investigate an organization's tax practices, of course not. Mike, I worked for WorldCom. The mistake is a political one, not one of legality. And it does strongly reek of payback -- there are hundreds of other organizations, tax exempt ones, which politic on a regular basis and even employ hundreds of lobbyists. Why single out the AARP and leave the rest untouched? Why, specifically, in circumstances related to legislation you loathe?

Lastly, the GOP is not a cult. You misrepresent my previous posts. I likened the Tea Party to a cult, not the GOP. The current and new congress is showing every sign of an unwillingness to compromise -- compromise being the fundamental hallmark of a democracy. In fact, this has been trumpeted as a virtue by many of them, when in reality it's exactly the opposite. When tact and diplomacy are required, you don't send in ideologues who refuse to talk unless the opposition capitulates to everything.

Are Dems playing the fool in many cases, you betcha. But I find it particularly troubling that the debate is reduced to "well, but they do it too" when that isn't even a point on the table.

It's as if I noted that "the sun arose this morning" and your response is "Yeah, stupid sun. Just like the moon rose last night. Don't you think the moon was equally wrong?"

And so on.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:47 pm

The AARP and Acorn are colluding on scooterchair rentals. Be afraid.

---------

Barber, I took the cookie references, so you go with meat? I'll see your shank and give you two oatmeal raisin.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:59 pm

hi Steve;
thanks for your reply, pardon this addition to the molehill that is already a mountain .
Barber wrote:Boy. You see hypocrisy and duplicity virtually everywhere, don't you?
actually no, i don't.

i don't post here to make accusations

often people can engage in rationalizations that fail examination...their beliefs (truth) can counter reality.
i do wonder if you are engaging in some rationalizations, less than accurate statements, and political rhetoric.
nooooo problem, no worries mate.

I did not offer the term, but will assume it is one you prefer.
Do you think i see hypocrisy where it does not exist ? Please, set me straight.

would you prefer any/everyone were blind to either ? of couse not.

facts are what i look for; they are what i expect to find, or dig out.
i must construct my own conception of reality; hopefuly you don't expect me to accept yours, on your word alone ?
Barber wrote:I admire your zeal in pointing it out. Repeatedly.
i only offer such observations if i care for, and respect the source, their moral intentions, and their ability to see and discuss reason.

otherwise i would not write to frank at all.

Zeal ? you might be shocked and concened at how often i appear to take an apathetic stance, saying nothing, sensing the futility of persuing a subject. As i suppose you have also...and discretion being the better part of valor...as well.
Barber wrote:The GOP has long prided itself of being "Law and Order", but only when it was convenient for them.
of course, another fine, accurate account of reality ?
Thank you for the truth, Steve.
Barber wrote:In a small way I applaud them for reducing their double standard enough to attack one of their major constituencies.
it is amazing how stupid you know they are. This could be the begining of their end! Huzzah!
Barber wrote:It is similar, as you point out, to a scenario in which Dems suggested a similar investigation of the AFL/CIO.
no, that wasn't on my mind at all when i wrote the post.
nothing in the satire i offered to you spelled out, "but they do it too", either.
both were inferences, your conclusions, logical or assumed, from the text.
Barber wrote: In this case, however, I have been waiting for a mistake of this magnitude, knowing it was coming just not the degree or character of the mistake.
yes this will certainly crush them. I haven't read the paper today; are they dead yet ?
Barber wrote:The mistake is a political one, not one of legality. And it does strongly reek of payback -- there are hundreds of other organizations, tax exempt ones, which politic on a regular basis and even employ hundreds of lobbyists. Why single out the AARP and leave the rest untouched? Why, specifically, in circumstances related to legislation you loathe?
well, with any luck, the dems will join in all reasonable prosecution or adjustment to the situation.

it is just awful that the reps only care to uphold the law "when it was (is) convenient"; only when republicans are being raped, robbed or killied will they lift a finger or raise a brow.
Barber wrote:Lastly, the GOP is not a cult. You misrepresent my previous posts. I likened the Tea Party to a cult, not the GOP.
and of course thank you again steve, for offering clarification of my error,
and for repeating a most objective, accurate and logicaly descriptive word.
"cult" for "tea party".
we can always depend on you for the truth . your journalistic training and ethics are manifest again.

yep; it's aaall about the truth.
Barber wrote: The current and new congress is showing every sign of an unwillingness to compromise -- compromise being the fundamental hallmark of a democracy. In fact, this has been trumpeted as a virtue by many of them, when in reality it's exactly the opposite. When tact and diplomacy are required, you don't send in ideologues who refuse to talk unless the opposition capitulates to everything.

"tact and diplomacy" ?
this is politics. they are a cult and they filibuster, we are saints and don't show for a quorum.
they stop us from saving humanity and we stop them from eating our babies.
blahblahblahitstruthitstruthitstruth
Barber wrote: Are Dems playing the fool in many cases, you betcha. But I find it particularly troubling that the debate is reduced to "well, but they do it too" when that isn't even a point on the table.

It's as if I noted that "the sun arose this morning" and your response is "Yeah, stupid sun. Just like the moon rose last night. Don't you think the moon was equally wrong?"


aside from the "we're mostly good, they're mostly bad" rhetorical retread action goin' on in the rest of your post, this bit is a pretty cool retread of a long past complaint.

always get a kick out of analogies.
try this one:

is it as if you might note; "there's that fuk'n sun again; you know, melanoma is the most common form of cancer?"

and you may suggest my response might be; "yeah but the full moon brings out the werewolves" ("well, but they do it too")

but i might as likely respond "oh, steve; the sun wants to help you grow, the cancer is not the main intent, shit happens."
-----------
of course, there may not be as much political traction in;
"plants and animals need the sun; don't hog the light, ass"
"the moon lights our way at night, drives the tide and life itself, some people suck"

pehaps it is better to concentrate only on cults, "they only do the right thing for the wrong reasons", etc. ?

don't get mired up in facts and logic alone, that is too confusing, and people lie.

it's all about the passion, that's what moves people.

yes, the truth of where best to focus hate and fear.

The Truth. yeah, that's the ticket.

all the best to you and yours
Barber wrote:And so on.
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:56 pm

I'm sorry Mike, I was clearly unaware you've been assigned the role of keeping me free from hypocrisy, and pointing out that not all of my posts are thoroughly evenhanded.

Oddly enough I didn't get the memo. Nor do I remember stating that I considered all things equal. Astoundingly, I find I have a strong opinion, and if you disagree with a specific point I would welcome a debate rather than ridicule. I would appreciate exchange rather than sniping. You don't present opposing points of view, which can be debated. You do make observations, but they come across as more in the realm of smug sarcasm than productive debate.

For example:

Barber wrote:
The GOP has long prided itself of being "Law and Order", but only when it was convenient for them.

of course, another fine, accurate account of reality ?
Thank you for the truth, Steve.


You don't debate the point, you simply launch into a snide broadside. Had you replied with "Really? For example?" it would have been fair comment and accomplished essentially the same observation without the pith.

Second example:

Barber wrote:
In this case, however, I have been waiting for a mistake of this magnitude, knowing it was coming just not the degree or character of the mistake.

yes this will certainly crush them. I haven't read the paper today; are they dead yet ?


This retort again accomplished nothing more than being a snide aside. Does it challenge the overall accuracy of my statement? No. Does it ask for debate? No. Does it point out the actual flaws in my logic? No.

What, precisely, is the point of such a reply unless sniping?

And again,

Barber wrote:
Lastly, the GOP is not a cult. You misrepresent my previous posts. I likened the Tea Party to a cult, not the GOP.

and of course thank you again steve, for offering clarification of my error,
and for repeating a most objective, accurate and logicaly descriptive word.
"cult" for "tea party".
we can always depend on you for the truth . your journalistic training and ethics are manifest again.


Ah. The sharp personal attack. Duly caught and duly noted. I am trained in journalism, but am not practicing it here (of course). You didn't deny the status of the Tea Party, you only lobbed a few insults over the transom and left the rest of the comment unremarked upon. Do you note the smug sarcasm I make note of? Am I unaware of some form of authority you and you alone possess to make such pronouncements? If you are allowed smug sarcasm, am I? Or is it above my pay grade? I particularly appreciate the notation that expressing an opinion violates my journalistic integrity and neutrality. Fortunately, I didn't pursue the career, and the Forum posts reflect personal opinion rather than impersonal reporting.

And still more:

"tact and diplomacy" ?
this is politics. they are a cult and they filibuster, we are saints and don't show for a quorum.
they stop us from saving humanity and we stop them from eating our babies.
blahblahblahitstruthitstruthitstruth


I don't believe this needs any further comment.



Mike, seriously?

Ah yes, I see it was.

Well, you did it. Cut me to the bone. I shall now lick my considerable wounds and whimper quietly in the corner. Your arguments are compelling enough that I can readily see I need to rethink my entire philosophy.

I just wish I knew precisely where I have erred. You see, I still don't know anything more from your posts other than I am lying to someone about something that absolves someone else of something else. I think -- I may have missed the nuances.

Clearly, however, I am too dim to be engaged in rational debate and should rather be subjected to a rapping on the knuckles by my condescending teacher.
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:55 am

outstanding Steve,

i agree with the majority of your response , minim...52% ? (probably much more)

especially this...sorta...i think... a bit:

"I just wish I knew precisely where I have erred. You see, I still don't know anything more from your posts other than I am lying to someone about something that absolves someone else of something else. I think -- I may have missed the nuances."

(although i thought we agreed that; "but they do it too" absolves nothing. no?)

but never this:

"Clearly, however, I am too dim to be engaged in rational debate and should rather be subjected to a rapping on the knuckles by my condescending teacher."

no personal attacks or accusations were intended.
only observations, opinions and philosophy,

No mirrors allowed ?
got it. never again.
i can be a hypercritical dick.

i appologize.

you'll let me know if i have any more schmutz on my face though, please?
i'd rather hear it from a friend.
i don't want to appear a fool, or rude, again.
I realy need to stop being a dick.

i appologize

if i insist on something that you think is just not true, please tell me.
it may be a slip of the tongue, an exageration; but know it is not my intention to lie.
I did not think it was yours.

looking forward to the next installment

the sun will rise again
follow your bliss,mike


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