Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

User avatar
Lori Koonce
Posts: 3538
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: San Francisco California
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu May 12, 2011 4:23 pm

So, tell me Frank how the fuck would you have liked us to kill OBL?

We did it with the least amount of innocent blood being shed, and we even did it in spite of a cock up on our part.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Thu May 12, 2011 5:46 pm

what actual importance did/does osama represent ?

a figurehead ? A martyr and/or a trophy. A head on a stick ?

an irreplaceable genius; mastermind of the logistics, fundraising and recruitment for the great jihad ?

or a head on a stick ?
follow your bliss,mike

David Silver
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:07 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby David Silver » Thu May 12, 2011 7:23 pm

OBL's death was a catharsis for the many people, especially a large segment of our society that has only known a world tainted by the after effects of 9/11 (there are some amazing sociological studies out there of young people currently in the 18 to 27 year old range who suffer with a paralyzing sense of societal pessimism after "witnessing" the event and feeling their world would never be safe again...), who needed a symbol of a potential return of normalcy to their lives. This is where Obama and crew got it right over Bush and cronies, where the former understood that Americans continued to specifically single out OBL as the enemy, not the Arab world or Islam or anything in Iraq, etc., while the latter obsessed over maintaining and promoting a high crusade against every person or country or thing that might possibly represent a terrorist threat. We never needed a war. People just needed to see some sort of justice...
We don't stop playing because we grow old.
We grow old because we stop playing.

-- George Bernard Shaw

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Thu May 12, 2011 11:07 pm

David Silver wrote: OBL's death was a catharsis for the many people, especially a large segment of our society that has only known a world tainted by the after effects of 9/11 (there are some amazing sociological studies out there of young people currently in the 18 to 27 year old range who suffer with a paralyzing sense of societal pessimism after "witnessing" the event and feeling their world would never be safe again...), who needed a symbol of a potential return of normalcy to their lives.

"The death of bin Laden marks the most significant achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al Qaeda."
(an irreplaceable genius; mastermind of the logistics, fundraising and recruitment for the great jihad ?)

bullshit.

it's a head on a stick.

David Silver wrote: This is where Obama and crew got it right over Bush and cronies, where the former understood that Americans continued to specifically single out OBL as the enemy,

both knew the political value of a head on a stick. Both denied it was the most important goal.

David Silver wrote: not the Arab world or Islam or anything in Iraq, etc.,

both denied islam was the enemy.

"...the United States is not –- and never will be -– at war with Islam. I’ve made clear, just as President Bush did shortly after 9/11, that our war is not against Islam."

What manner of red herring iraq was; reasoned theoretical benefit to mid-east stability, or whatever...I shudder to think.

David Silver wrote: while the latter obsessed over maintaining and promoting a high crusade against every person or country or thing that might possibly represent a terrorist threat.

And many of the policies, advisors and structures adopted to address that terrorist threat are still in place.

"Yet his death does not mark the end of our effort. There’s no doubt that al Qaeda will continue to pursue attacks against us. We must –- and we will -- remain vigilant at home and abroad."

"...our counterterrorism cooperation with Pakistan helped lead us to bin Laden and the compound where he was hiding. "

"...going forward, it is essential that Pakistan continue to join us in the fight against al Qaeda and its affiliates."

doesn't exactly sound as though we're headed home just yet, does it.

David Silver wrote: We never needed a war. People just needed to see some sort of justice...

I hope your right Mr. Silver, because i want to believe we didn't need this.

I didn't need the head on a stick.
follow your bliss,mike

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Thu May 12, 2011 11:14 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote: Bush dismantled the security team going after Bin Laden (Obama restored it when he came into office).

:?:
follow your bliss,mike

User avatar
Chuck Messer
Posts: 2089
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: Lakewood, Colorado

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Chuck Messer » Fri May 13, 2011 2:38 am

From Wikipedia:

The Washington Post also reported that the CIA unit composed of their special operations paramilitary forces dedicated to capturing bin Laden was shut down in late 2005.[140] Bush had previously defended this scaling back of the effort several times, saying, "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."[141]

[141]^ "Bush Quotes about Bin Laden". BuzzFlash. http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2 ... Laden.html.


Look up Bush's speech on youtube. It's the feel-good hit of the decade.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

User avatar
Chuck Messer
Posts: 2089
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 9:15 pm
Location: Lakewood, Colorado

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Chuck Messer » Fri May 13, 2011 2:40 am

Oops. Forgot this:

[140]^ "CIA Reportedly Disbands Bin Laden Unit". The Washington Post. Associated Press. July 4, 2006. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00375.html. Retrieved May 25, 2010.
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Fri May 13, 2011 5:45 am

hi chuck;
i remember the "feel good" speech
ever wonder how the cia and fbi can work with all their secrets in the paper?

that link doesn't get me the entire article, but it does include this:
"The CIA said hunting bin Laden remains a priority, but resources needed to be directed toward other people and groups likely to initiate new attacks."
and:
"The efforts to find Osama bin Laden are as strong as ever," said CIA spokeswoman Jennifer Millerwise Dyck. "This is an agile agency, and the decision was made to ensure greater reach and focus."

this link gets me the full article
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/04/washi ... intel.html
which offeres additional...views beyond:
"Michael Scheuer, a former senior C.I.A. official who was the first head of the unit, said the move reflected a view within the agency that Mr. bin Laden was no longer the threat he once was.
Mr. Scheuer said that view was mistaken"

it continues, to alledge:
""The bin Laden unit's analysts were so intense about their work that they made some of their C.I.A. colleagues uncomfortable," Mr. Coll wrote. Members of Alec Station "called themselves 'the Manson Family' because they had acquired a reputation for crazed alarmism about the rising Al Qaeda threat."

Intelligence officials said Alec Station was disbanded after Robert Grenier, who until February was in charge of the Counterterrorist Center, decided the agency needed to reorganize to better address constant changes in terrorist organizations."
follow your bliss,mike

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Fri May 13, 2011 6:05 am

Ez;
was that the situation to which you refered ?

to repeat or further obfuscate;
I do appreciate the value of heads on sticks (or plates), and cloak and dagger news items and maybe even wikileaks.
yep, yep, it's a mystery wrapped in an enigma found in the trash on a printout hacked from the computer files of an impeachable anonymous source deep within the pentagon's cia taskforce to root out the trilateral NWO. (whew!)

good for them. :P
follow your bliss,mike

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri May 13, 2011 3:48 pm

Ah, I don't think we should have killed Bin Ladin, especially if he surrendered, even though the evidence is sketchy.

Remember, the government lied about a lot of stuff before more evidence got fleshed out. I'm with Michael Moore and Glenn Greenwald on this one--it may have been illegal. A Spanish judge agrees.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri May 13, 2011 3:54 pm

Lori, take a breath, calm down. In culture there are hacks and there are good artists who by being good make money. I do want to amend the society, but I don't begrudge them making money. I have problems with how people spend money, but that's not the issue.

Harlan likes Rowling, but hates Eric Seigel. He hates knife kill movies, but that doesn't mean he is going after all movie people: Some innocent folk work on knife kill movies, but that doesn't make Harlan any nicer about woman hate in films.

He even went after the Omen, which is a good movie. We all have our tastes.

User avatar
Lori Koonce
Posts: 3538
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: San Francisco California
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri May 13, 2011 4:34 pm

Frank

Yeah we all have our tastes, but you seem to be the only one around here spouting your opinions as fact.

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri May 13, 2011 8:27 pm

cynic, sure the Bushies gave the hunt for Bin Laden lip service but after their complete incompetence at Tora Bora allowed Osama to escape they essentially abandoned the pursuit for him because of their obsession with Iraq.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sat May 14, 2011 6:08 am

I do not regret that Bin Laden is dead. Good riddence. I do not think it a travesty that he was not taken to trial.

What I find very disturbing though is how many people find the very idea of a trial liberal appeasement by another name. Nuremburg would never have happened under the current climate.

cynic
Posts: 2684
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 3:55 am
Location: chicago

Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sat May 14, 2011 8:15 am

Steve Evil wrote:I do not regret that Bin Laden is dead. Good riddence. I do not think it a travesty that he was not taken to trial.

What I find very disturbing though is how many people find the very idea of a trial liberal appeasement by another name. Nuremburg would never have happened under the current climate.
hi Steve;
certain that the Nuremburg trials would not happen "under the current climate"?
very interesting.
do you think it unlikely that the incineration of 6 out of 10 million, of any group would occur?
world war ?
i hope your right.
but in such a case ; what, if anything, would happen ?
the world community (such as it is; the U.N. , whatever) would do nothing?
or kill them all and let god set their final reward ?

"I do not think it a travesty that he was not taken to trial."

do you find it disturbing?
follow your bliss,mike


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests