Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Mark Tiedemann
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:46 am

This is one of those situations where what happens today can be explained as a rational response while the cause of what happened today was an irrationality that happened decades ago.

Israel controls the water in the region. Why this gets no press I don't know.

Israel could have taken steps toward resolving this in the 50s by admitting the bulk of Palestinians as citizens, but then it would not have been a Jewish State. (No, I am not embarking on any kind of antisemitic riff here, just dealing in political reality.) The Palestinians have as much moral right to claim native residence there as Israel has a legal right to defend its political reality, but numbers mitigated against a rapprochement and the escalation of separatist policies have resulted in this insane situation. All most Palestinians know is they can't make a go of things under current conditions, which are dictated by Israel. All Israel knows is it can no longer trust Palestinians, even if the overwhelming majority would be peaceful, productive neighbors. It's a game of chicken wherein both sides will have to blink before the collision.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:03 pm

According to even the mainstream media, Jabari was found with the cease fire agreement on his person.

Israel broke the ceasefire first. Their killing of Jabari is similar to Arafat, another good go-between between the Palestinians and the west, which Israel didn't want because they wanted more land, as well as water control, as Mark so ably stated.

According to the historian Shlomo Sand most Israelis are recent converts. They have no longstanding link to the land.

There should not be a jewish state, just as there should not be a Christian state. Netanyahu's father believed in the greater Israel bunk. Also, the likud party doesn't recognize a Palestinian state.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby DanielBarron » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:04 pm

You fail to mention on the day the cease fire was announced Hamas continued firing rockets at Israeli cities. The mainstream and non-mainstream press acknowledge that fact. How is Jabari's killing similar to Arafat? There is no evidence whatsoever Israel played any role in Arafat's death.

Gaza is entirely dependent on an underground aquifer for its fresh water which is being rapidly being depleted and polluted. Israel offered to build for Gaza a massive desalinization plant at their own expense which would alleviate this problem to an enormous extent. The Palestinians declined the offer. Apparently, hating Israel is more important than drinking clean water.

Shlomo Sand's book has been debunked as a complete fraud in which he revives the revisionist canard claiming most Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars who converted to Judaism in the 7th century. Numerous genetic studies have refuted Sand's nonsense: http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetic ... pageId=263

Nentanyahu, the leader of Likud, did announce in 2009 full agreement with a two-state solution http://www.haaretz.com/news/full-text-o ... n-1.277922 . All of Israel's other major parties recognized this as the only solution decades earlier. Hamas, however, will not negotiate in good faith and will not accept Israel's existence. They have no interest in seeking peace and a two-state solution. That means flare-ups like this are not avoidable. It's not Israel that's causing the problem, it's Hamas and the violence will stop on the same day Hamas stops firing the rockets.

Sure, there shouldn't be Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Christian states in an ideal world. How exactly do you propose all of them rid themselves of such a designation? How about the Saudis and Iran set an example and go first?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:30 am

It is Israel, and Iran and Iraq and Jordan and all the Arab states and the U.S. and the U.N. that are calling the problems, and the violence, and the death and the suffering. So I see no motivation to end any of it while each of all the sides don't care how much suffering cause each other. This part is the part of the world that will cause the third world war. How far humanity and this planet is destroyed by that war depends on how nuclear the sides are willing to go. I didn't always feel this way; once I hoped there would be peace in this troubled land. Now I see no hope, just endless arguing and destruction.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:58 pm

The people in Jordan are protesting now. A very good sign in a bad week for crazyland.

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Obama, do not fall for the fiscal cliff. You cannot cut social security or medicare. Don't fall for it. We are not Greece. Aristotle diddled boys.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:59 pm

One of the many shocking revelations in the book by Project Censored: The FBI is the cause of most terrorist attempts. Wow.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:57 pm

FrankChurch wrote:One of the many shocking revelations in the book by Project Censored: The FBI is the cause of most terrorist attempts. Wow.


If so, without even reading it I can reach the below conclusion:

Such a finding is evidence of clearly abysmal research with a predetermined "tin foil hat" outcome, demonstrating bad journalism at its worst. The FBI is not the cause of most terrorist attempts, Frank.

Domestic attempts? Perhaps actions the FBI may cause some damaged people to react in an insane fashion (terrorist attack), but this sort of umbrella assertion demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the global terrorism mechanism as well as the actual work the FBI is tasked with. The FBI are hardly innocent bystanders, but this sort of finding is absurd hyperbole on the face of it.

Indefensibly amateurish and narrow writing.
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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:30 am

Puts on his boxing gloves. Ok F-stop Fitzgerald, you want sources, I will give you stinking sources:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... informants

http://www.mediafreedominternational.or ... ed-states/

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FinderDoug
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FinderDoug » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:08 am

Have to call a double-dip debate foul, Frank - you can't call the second one a source if it is, essentially, a news report of the first source you cited.

That said, I don't think the Mother Jones report is badly written or badly researched at all, and it raises some very good points.Going for a completely sensational headline - that the FBI is actually causing terrorist attempts - undermines the value of its point. Why not just say what they're saying: that through the use of paid informants in sting operations, the FBI may be entrapping people who would not otherwise consider joining a terrorist cell; or that the FBI's ex post facto labeling their sting operations as actual "terrorist plots" is a pile of hogwash that needs to be called out.

But to say the FBI is "the cause of most terrorist attempts" is wildly misleading, whether you or Mother Jones is saying it. It implies the FBI is putting the means for terrorism - guns, rockets, bombs, whatever - in the hands of terrorists so the FBI can then ride in and save the day, and that's NOT what's being done.

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FinderDoug
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FinderDoug » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:13 am

Well, okay - the update at the end would indicate they have, in some identified cases, provided ordinance within a controlled situation. THAT is problematic. But I stand by my assessment of how the story is presented headline versus actual content; and I think it would have gotten more mainstream media play if they'd gone for a thoughtful instead of a sensational headline.

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Moderator » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:45 pm

And as far as it goes, Doug (and Frank) the article is limited solely to domestic terrorism. Global terrorism is a much larger problem, though we, as everyone does, tend to feel OUR terrorist attacks are more important than THEIR terrorist attacks.

But I agree, now that you've provided the article in question, that Mother Jones -- which I usually respect quite a lot -- is going for a sensational headline to accompany an interesting assertion. The FBI may, in fact, be enabling a good percentage of failed domestic terrorist attacks. As Doug states, this is troubling, though I understand the hypothesis behind it. But yes, it reeks of entrapment.

But to return to my original statement: the assertion that the FBI "is the cause of most" terrorist attempts overstates "cause" -- and ignores "domestic" entirely. It's wildly inaccurate.

Hundreds of people are killed annually in completed terrorist attacks in which the FBI has no role whatsoever. In Russia, in Syria, in Iraq, in Bangladesh, in London, in Spain, etc, etc, etc.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:56 pm

Mother Jones saved Obama's ass so ya better recognize.

Domestic terrorism is mostly what we fear. That is why we take away so many rights.

Yea, the mainstream media never rely on sensational headlines. :roll:

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:57 pm

You should read our local paper and their report about the pinpoint accuracy of Israel's bombs. They almost gacked Anderson Cooper. I'm trying to ruminate if that's a bad thing.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:53 pm

HELP!!!!

IF, as our president and most of the west keep on saying, Israel has a right to defend itself, wouldn't that mean that these same people also believe that Gaza, and by extension Hamas dosen't have that right?

Here's something to ponder. I was listening to Democracy Now this AM, and according to their best estimate, from people on the ground on both sides is as follows. Israels killed by bombs 3, Palestinians killed by bombs, 93. So really who needs to be defending themselves?

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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:35 pm

What an unending nightmare the conflict is. And no solution.


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