SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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cynic
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby cynic » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:22 pm

pardon any blip in the indication of a new post on this thread
as i resumed listening to the link ez offered, concerned i may have corrections to deal with, i deleted the post.
it returns as it was, addended below.
-------------------------
ezra

interesting, thanks for the link.
I didn't finish it yet but i will; wiki notes a 2009 TED talk i may look for.
stuff from the transcript;
"the reason neuroscience might be useful is because introspection isn't reliable, it doesn't have access to most of the important things about other minds. If we want to know what does predict human behavior, or when will people break into a fight or have a disease, you can't just ask them to think about it and tell you. Even if they wanted to be honest, it's not possible to be honest."

she is reiterating a position shared by haidt; that we are born hypocrites.

of course, this query of the "mechanism of mind" and how it may affect social discourse will set off flashing red lights and sirens for those concerned over the next eugenics war...or the drugging of the non-compliant population.

or not.
---------------------------
Is it the structure of your brain that makes you feel "that way"?
The idea with neuro-imaging is: first of all, can we diagnose the problem? Can we see under what circumstances, when you're thinking about somebody on the other side, is your brain doing something that might be diagnostic of what the psychological driver of conflict is? There's lots of possible things you could imagine here, like what's the source of a loss of empathy, or the source of suspicion of the other's motives, or the perception that the out-group is always irrational. Those are coming from our brain. It's the structure of the human brain that makes us feel that way about the out-group.
But... aren't "we" special?

cool, these bits image a sort of "love propaganda". yes?
Sometimes there are experiences that you have, deliberately or through a government program, that make a difference to how you think about people on the other side. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't work.
i can get behind love propaganda.
Could we take a group of people and tell you these ones, even though they feel really hostile to the other side right now, if you put them through a dialogue intervention program, it will help, it will make them less hostile; but these people need something else.
but of course; what "those people" need, and whether it is determined that such and so "intervention" becomes policy...some are concerned over the feds in education for just that reason. brave new world.

this lady is pretty cool;
The feeling of working with the wrong concept, which I think many of us have, knowing that our best theories are still deeply confused, if not merely superficially wrong, can be disheartening.

tattoo that on the inside of your eyelids.
follow your bliss,mike

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:36 pm

Well cynic that's where the image of Dr Frankenstein came from isn't it? The fear that we may go too far. There are some things mankind was not meant to know. Cue the theremin...

But the genie has already been let out of Pandora's box and the die has been cast across the Rubicon.

The choice is ours. Knowledge can destroy the fool or cure him of his foolishness.

If I was the nihilist that Ben thinks I am I would embrace our self-destruction. But naively perhaps I remain an optimist. I truly believe that Homo Sap so loves life that she will look into the abyss and wise up. Chastened a bit no doubt. But that's a good thing.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

cynic
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby cynic » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:50 pm

my optimism seems to irritate the wizz out of some people.

check out the Rebecca Saxe ted talk on ytube folks; interesting and a few amusing bits.
http://tinyurl.com/33cgq6w
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:44 pm

What if Jesus was Republican:

http://www.alternet.org/belief/what-if- ... republican

Spiritual progressives need to get it together.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:43 pm

Ezra, why no mention on my Dawkins piece? I'm upping your boy and you give me nil.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:42 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Ezra, why no mention on my Dawkins piece? I'm upping your boy and you give me nil.


Sorry Frank but I don't catch everything. My non-internet life intrudes occasionally. :wink: What piece are you talking about?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:04 pm

Dawkins disagreed with EO Wilson.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:25 am

FrankChurch wrote:Dawkins disagreed with EO Wilson.


Not to worry Frank. That sort of thing is ok in science.

They do agree about one thing though. :D

It will be useful in taking a second look at science and religion to understand the true nature of the search for objective truth. Science is not just another enterprise like medicine or enginerering or theology. It is the wellspring of all the knowledge we have of the real world that can be tested and fitted to preexisting knowledge. It is the arsenal of technologies and inferential mathematics needed to distinguish the true from the false. It formulates the principles and formulas that tie all this knowledge together. Science belongs to everybody. Its constituent parts can be challenged by anybody in the world who has sufficient information to do so. It is not just ‘another way of knowing’ as often claimed, making it coequal with religious faith. The conflict between scientific knowledge and the teachings of organized religions is irreconcilable. The chasm will continue to widen and cause no end of trouble as long as religious leaders go on making unsupportable claims about supernatural causes of reality.

-E. O. Wilson, The Social Conquest of Earth
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:33 pm

A couple fascinating articles about the decline of organized religion in the US.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19262884

http://richarddawkins.net/news_articles ... -disbelief
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:28 pm

The Economist recently covered that as well. . .

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:38 pm

Remember, I presented Noamie as my atheist MLK years ago.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:41 pm

Wow, did you guys hear that Obama interceded and they changed the Democratic platform to put the term God back in the platform, even when people in the crowd yelled no, but they put it in anyway.

They also put Jerusalem as capital of Israel in the platform, even though that's a biggie for Palestinians, who see East Jerusalem as their capital.

Makes me understand fully why Ezra is sometimes as bile filled as he can get. The Dems: spineless.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:38 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about the weasely ass-kissing Democrats. Instead I would worry about anyone who could be influenced by such an empty meaningless gesture.


This won't get the hubub that the Higgs Boson or the Mars rover did but may be just as significant in the long run.

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09 ... genes?lite
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:40 pm

Amen brother.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby diane bartels » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:11 am

Today the Dahli Lama said something on Facebook that was both surprising and true, just unexpected. I am paraphrasing but here goes: though the words of the major religions talk about love and peace and justice, etc. it is now necessary in today's world to ground ethics, morality and sprituality in something besides religion. He didn't get specific. But I think he is thinking of the decline in attendence and practice in most religions, the growth of science, and the younger generations' tendency not to take things in blind faith. Wonder what you guys though about this and about whether there can be spirituality without a specific mention of a Deity. I think there is and can be. Wondered what you guys thought.


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