SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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cynic
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby cynic » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:43 am

FrankChurch wrote:Did you know the Fountainhead is the second most sold book next to the Bible? My bile marches towards the pearly gates.
sorry folks , :oops: can't resist the temptation.

frank; who's ass did you pull this ignorant bullshit from, and why? :roll: Got quite the cherry there bud.

Did you read -Anthem- yet?
Except for bits of the ending, it was pretty good.
I'll bet you'd agree.
Don't be ascared frank, it's short. :)
But you won't have to steal it unless you just can't stop yourself, it's on the Gutenburg site.
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:34 pm

How is my comment ignorant, silly man?

Mike, I don't have time to read stuff that dulls my soul. Time is too short. Ms. Rand burns in some personal hell she dug for herself.

cynic
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby cynic » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:57 pm

FrankChurch wrote: How is my comment ignorant, silly man?

Oh my, to be more specific;
I was not refering to where your " bile marches ". That is certainly between you and your bile. March it where you will.
( :lol: sorry lil' buddy. Just teasing, not disrespecting your bible.)

That would leave this little gem.
FrankChurch wrote: Did you know the Fountainhead is the second most sold book next to the Bible?

But it is a question. A leading question that refers to the false statement (comment); "Fountainhead is the second most sold book ".

It was that false statement that I refered to as "ignorant bullshit ".

So I ask again...Who's ass did you pull this ignorant bullshit from, and why?
FrankChurch wrote: I don't have time to read stuff that dulls my soul.
of course your time (as your bile) is yours to do with what you will.
But is your soul that malleable?
(finally, back to religion)
follow your bliss,mike

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:15 pm

I had forgotten about ANTHEM. That was one I read in school. Of course at the time it was presented as a science fiction distopia along the lines of 1984 and BRAVE NEW WORLD. Nothing about Objectivist philosophy of which my english teacher was probably completely unaware.

ANTHEM is heavily derivative of a classic Russian novel from the 20s by Yevgeny Zamyatin callled WE. Now that's a book folks should search out it you haven't read it. Both Orwell and Huxley cited it as an influence. Needless to say WE was censored by the Soviets and has never to this day been published in Russia. I have an anthology somewhere that contains Zamyatin's less than humble letter to Stalin demanding to allowed to immigrate to the west. The guy had a brass pair and amazingly he was allowed to leave without incident.

Ayn Rand is a ludicrous figure. She preached this gospel of absolute individualism and self-reliance but in her personal life she was this controlling fascist who surrounded herself with fawning disciples. He so-called "philosophy" simply elevates the hungers and desires we all have into a bloated metaphysic. Her idea of freedom is that of a 12 year old who imagines that nothing is more wonderful than doing anything you want without having to worry about the consequences. Disgusting power worship and contempt for the weak (which of course disguises terror at her own weakness).

And lots and lots of bad writing.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:09 pm

Zamyatin's We. What a tremendous work. Ursula LeGuin called it the greatest science fiction novel ever written, and she's probably right. I should probably take another look, as it's been years since read it.

I read Anthem in high school because I heard it supposedly influenced a Rush song. I found it interesting at the time (finished it in a day, which is a rare thing for this slow reader), but even then recognized it as too didactic to be good literature. Flirted with Objectivist philosophy for about twenty minutes, when I realized glorified petulence was a poor basis for a philosophy.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:20 pm

Our conversation got me thinking about Zamyatin's letter to Stalin which is worth quoting.

No creative activity is possible in an atmosphere of systematic persecution that increases in intensity from year to year. In each of my published works these critics have inevitably discovered some diabolical intent. Regardless of the content of a given work, the very fact of my signature has become a sufficient reason for declaring the work criminal. Of course, any falsification is permissible in fighting the devil.

I beg to be permitted to go abroad with my wife with the right to return as soon as it becomes possible in our country to serve great ideas in literature without cringing before little men, as soon as there is at least partial change in the prevailing view concerning the role of the literary artist.


He wrote that to Joseph Stalin in 1931! That's guts.

And your mention of Ursula Le Guin reminded me of an essay she wrote called, The Stalin in the Soul, that takes it's theme of censorship from Zamyatin's experience. Well worth seeking out. It's in a collection called THE LANGUAGE OF THE NIGHT.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:38 am

My god, it's unbelievable. But who knows what was going on in Stalin's mind. "Unpredictable" was his middle name.

I have read some of LANGUAGE OF THE NIGHT, but not that particular essay. Makes me miss university libraries.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:54 am

Guts are central. It took real guts to do what Jesus did, going to that cross, knowing he would be tortured.

Call me Frank the preacher.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:41 pm

Frank

It wasn't guts that took Jesus to the Cross IMO. It was the knowledge that a sacrifice needed to be made for the good of mankind. Jesus realized that he was the best one to make that sacrifice. And he had the courage of that conviction.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:15 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:Frank

It wasn't guts that took Jesus to the Cross IMO. It was the knowledge that a sacrifice needed to be made for the good of mankind. Jesus realized that he was the best one to make that sacrifice. And he had the courage of that conviction.


And you'll please remind us again why a sacrifice needed to made "for the good of mankind"? I suspect Jesus was as surprised as anyone when angels didn't come down and wisk him away.

My god, my god, why hast thou forsaken me?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:59 pm

He was equal human as he was spirit. His human side said that.

diane bartels
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby diane bartels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:22 pm

And right now , all of me is saying it.

RocRizzo
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby RocRizzo » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:40 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:It wasn't guts that took Jesus to the Cross IMO.


To the Cross?!?!?! He's supposed to mow my lawn come spring! You mean I'm gonna have to find someone else to do it?
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

diane bartels
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby diane bartels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:51 pm

Roc, non-antaganistic,really true ques. If I start making fairly unfunny(not to mention faintly racist) jokes about your beliefs or lack thereof, jokes which sorta imply you are kinda stupid at best and an out right moron at worst for having those beliefs, would you find that offensive to your belief system and counter productive to intelligent discourse? Because my brain is firmly in my skull and works well, thanks to my efforts and those of my doctors, yet I believe with all my being that Jesus Christ, the son of Mary lived and died to redeem mankind through love. I have read the arguments for and against, thought the matter over and made my faith decision. And every atheist I have ever known or known of (with the possible exception of HE) likes to make little jokes about. Ezra refrains 99 per cent of the time. Yet sometimes I sense scorn for believers rooted deep in the fiber of his being,too. And it puzzles me. Diane

RocRizzo
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby RocRizzo » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:20 pm

You know Diane,
Every time someone mentions Jesus, the first person I think of is my great gardener. I get confused with those things, that's all. Sorry if I offend you by not practicing your beliefs. I have my own, thank you. You have every right to believe what you want, but don't think that everyone has those beliefs, nor do they associate names, places and things in your mythology the same as you do. The guy's been my gardener for 15 years. When I don't see him all winter, I get concerned.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."


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