SCIENCE VS RELIGION

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:40 pm

I scare you Frank?

WHY?

You made a claim and I asked you to prove it. If you should be frightened of anyone it should be yourself not me.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:12 am

I was being hyperbolic. You do not scare me. Life scares us both, I'd assume.

Ebert, in the clip from C-Span talks about how clergy are always made to look bad in movies. He is right, can anyone name a film where a religious person is seen positive?

Ezra and other atheists wonder why we are mad all the time.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:36 pm

FrankChurch wrote:
Ebert, in the clip from C-Span talks about how clergy are always made to look bad in movies. He is right, can anyone name a film where a religious person is seen positive?


Guess Who's Coming To Dinner
The Devil at Four O'Clock
On The Waterfront
The Mask of Zorro
Name of the Rose
The Quiet Man
Sister Act
The Mission
Here Be Dragons


Shall I go on?

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:50 pm

Are you implying Ebert was dumb? He agreed with Medved.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:43 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Are you implying Ebert was dumb? He agreed with Medved.


Don't deflect. Your challenge was to name any movie with a positive clergy representation. I'll agree that most of the time this is not the case, but superlatives---case in point---are always wrong, even when a Roger Ebert uses them.

Now. You gonna argue with the offered examples or modify your challenge?

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:16 pm

I'd suspect Ebert was saying that most movies make clergy look bad. You did name movies which few people watched. You also mentioned some movies that were made before Medved wrote the book, implying that modern movies make clergy look bad, which they do.

Obviously any movie made before the sixties free speech movements and end of Hays codes cannot count. Then I could also mention the Bells Of St. Marys.

I actually would add Romero. Now that does make clergy look good. I'd suspect Medved avoids films that he sees as leftist.

Hollywood is secular, but they could realise that the majority of us believe in God, no matter how skeptical we are.

Here's what's odd about this--the news media, which is the same secular culture, loves to interview mooks from the religious right. Nightline was notorious for extended interviews with the dread Falwell.

They avoid interviewing religious progressives like they do not exist. Romero's death anniversary gets little press.

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Steve Evil
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Steve Evil » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:31 pm

Don't forget The Exorcist. . .

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:03 pm

Frank

Are you aware that Guess Whose Coming to Dinner is on the American Film Institutes list of 100 Greatest movies of all time?

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:35 pm

Now, Hollywood is secular...

Interesting proposition. Insofar as it is run by people who will pander to any taste in order to make a buck, maybe. But they almost never pander to actual secularism. Hollywood has produced one fluffy-headed piece of supernatural feel-good wu-wu film after another for years. Anything that might be presented from the viewpoint of sound reason and rationality now comes form Indie film makers. (Use the Force, Luke!) If you take it from the perspective of christianity alone, you have a point, there is a dearth of that. But taken from the standpoint of the supernatural?

And, yes, to someone like me it's all supernatural nonsense. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc etc etc...all of it. New Age Gaian mysticism, the whole wad. So from that standpoint, Hollywood "product" is overwhelmingly spirit-soaked and very non-secular.

Why? Because it sells. They do notice that most folks are believers and they pander to the sentiment if not the doctrine.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:57 am

I know, and ET was code for Christ.

Lori's a pagan, so she is against both of us. lol

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Ben W.
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Ben W. » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:35 am

Scientific Racism, Militarism, and the New Atheists

http://www.africanglobe.net/featured/sc ... -atheists/

...ouch.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:32 am

Susan Jacoby did her best this sunday.

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FrankChurch
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:33 am

Lori, don't forget that list is always pretty conservative.

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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:46 am

FrankChurch wrote:I know, and ET was code for Christ.

Lori's a pagan, so she is against both of us. lol


It occurred to me that this was a snide sort-of agreement. I'll name you a case in point, though, where the filmmakers had the perfect opportunity not to indulge ooey-gooey spiritual fluff and went out of their way to insert it. The film adaptation of Carl Sagan's Contact. The book does not go where the movie went. Sagan would never have conceded the point. The film trashes Jodie Foster's court room testimony at the end, even though the very reasons their assertions were wrong were made at the beginning of the whole contact arc. They went with the sexy holy man and his "faith" instead of sticking to Sagan's guns. Why? I think they chickened out and decided---because, as has been pointed out, most people are not secular---that they couldn't sell a consistently rational ending.

But I'll tell you the other reason clergy---christian clergy---usually gets made the goat. Because christianity is a racket, even among people who believe in a god. You don't see evil Buddhists in Hollywood films and usually Judaism is pretty much untouched (unless you're Mel Gibson). (Which reminds me of an under appreciated gem, Gene Wilder and Harrison Ford in The Frisco Kid) but the specific denomination is beside the point. Spiritual people are usually always put forward as good and often heroes, but not institutions, of which clergy are representative. One of the most maligned groups in Hollywood history has been the atheist scientist. Science itself is largely misunderstood and misused.

So to my mind, this is more of the "everyone is picking on the besieged christians in this country" meme, which is on its face patently false. For the most part, it's not christians as individuals that get it, but christian churches as institutions that get derided, and this is shown fairly consistently in Hollywood productions.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: SCIENCE VS RELIGION

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:07 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Lori, don't forget that list is always pretty conservative.


So, what does that have to do with the matter under discussion. You asked for popular films with clergy as the good guy, and you got it.


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