THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:47 pm

robochrist wrote:Yeah, well...that's fine. I don't agree.


Yeah, well, you don't have to. That's the beauty of being the moderator.

But yes, let's move on.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:11 pm

Yeah, we've the privelege to be smarmy, as Mike usually is (even after one answers his questions). To call it a contribution to the dialogs we have, however, as Mark just suggested, invites a penalty of two free throws!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:10 pm

We need to remember that we are throwing flowers on a grave not pissing out rainbows. Let's behave guys. This is coming from me.

Poor Barber, when he has to lasso such rascals.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:37 pm

Where exactly to you see light refraction in the piss, Frank? All I see is golden showers!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:01 am

You need a mind of wimsy Robert.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:54 am

Chuck Messer wrote:I want to apologize to Mike

Chuck
thank you chuck;
no problem, bad timing of a useless endevour on my part.
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:04 am

Mark Tiedemann wrote:... I don't find mike tiresome in the least... I have encountered true assholes, trolls, prognathic precognates, and ingrates on other fora, and mike doesn't come close. Just sayin'.
thanks mark;
I'll take every non- accusation i can get.
I've never been convicted of a violent crime either. :)
Feel the pride. :lol:
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:38 pm

Mike, streak at a Cubs game. They need the win. haha.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:54 pm

Don't anticipate an author's intentions about his characters until his narrative shapes them.
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http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/ ... ns-of.html

This link is an essay by Bradbury comparing FAHRENHEIT 451 film with book, followed by critical essays about the author by other writers.

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Bradbury expounds on his optimism about mankind, believing one day a Utopia will be possible albeit only through the Individual. On the clinical level, I personally disagree with him on such views, but the power of his prose and metaphors easily allows me to look past such pettiness. It's beautiful stuff, and often with a bite.

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A brief recap, on the socialist thread, since we're talking about "Utopias" here:

While I concede “democratic socialism” does have highly debated interpretations, it is the hybrid model of a democratic socialist system that provides the optimal balances for the broadest cross-cut of a country’s population. That’s my summation.

Social democracy, since Ezra mentioned it, is, to quote the source, "officially a reformist democratic socialist political ideology. Social democracy supports legal entitlements in social rights for citizens. These are made up of universal access to public services such as: education, health care, workers' compensation, and other services such as child care and care for the elderly. Social democracy is connected with the trade union labour movement and supports collective bargaining rights for workers. Contemporary social democracy advocates freedom from discrimination based on differences of: ability/disability, age, class, ethnicity, gender, language, race, religion, and sexual orientation. Most social democratic parties are affiliated with the Socialist International."

Well, absolutely: perusing the labels as I did, I have to declare, as a Liberal, the last definition sums me up to the hilt. It is, nevertheless, a variant of socialism (which Ezra seemed to deny)...the kind that works...and as close to any "Utopia" as will ever be possible for our inherently hording species.

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Mark Tiedemann: Lori, btw, is a model example of someone who "asks questions" constructively, and poses hypotheticals, whether she agrees or disagrees with one's position (mostly when she disagrees), thereby adding to the discussion. She does not get smarmy and wise-assed.

I just don't like letting someone off the hook who's had a long record of doing that, despite your own observations.

NOW, I shall at last let it go! Battling my own ego is like Theseus engaging the Minotaur!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:11 pm

The world as I have come to know it has just gone SERIOUSLY haywire.

Robo gave me a compliment. Or at least that's how I'm gonna look at it.

Thanks Robo!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:20 pm

robochrist, don't literate religious believers think that recourse to cliffsnotes increases one's time in purgatory? :wink:

You're at least right about one thing - quibbling over definitions rapidily becomes tedious. If your definition of socialism is encapsulated by the qualities listed in the portion of your post in quotes, then ok...

I should point out however that every one of those items you list - education, health care, workers' compensation, child care and care for the elderly, labor movement, collective bargaining rights for workers and freedom from discrimination based on differences of: ability/disability, age, class, ethnicity, gender, language, race, religion, and sexual orientation, is just as true of the good ole United States as it is of Western Europe. But no one (excepting Tea Party morons) would accuse the USA of being socialist. Why? Because the overwhelming portion of our economy is in private hands - just like Western Europe. This would be my criteria for what makes a state socialist - the degree to which the economy is managed and run by the government. I was amused recently to read in Forbes magazine that Finland has a higher rate of successful small business start-ups that the USA! A strong social safety net consisting of the qualities you listed exists to mitigate the excesses of capitalism. And rightly so.

I am foursquare against the idea of Utopia. I much prefer stinky messy fallible human beings that admit that their chief concern will always be themselves and their loved ones. Any ideology that requires as its first principle that human nature much change - or else - is to be avoided like the plague it is.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:09 pm

Ezra: education, health care, workers' compensation, child care and care for the elderly, labor movement, collective bargaining rights for workers and freedom from discrimination based on differences of: ability/disability, age, class, ethnicity, gender, language, race, religion, and sexual orientation, is just as true of the good ole United States as it is of Western Europe.


Well...Ezra, that's simply bullshit.

I have relatives in Amsterdam, Southern France, and Suffolk. Even as corporate globalization reaches across that continent, bringing economic unsteadiness, government programs continue heavily. Education over there is still superior, life expectancy is higher because of universal health care, and collective bargaining rights are VERY strong over there - contrary to the way they've been crushed in this country for the last 30 years.

And as a cousin there recently informed me, I would not have likely lost my apartment there as I did here.

You give me the very distinct impression you know nothing about it.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:12 pm

Ezra, one more thing you're way off about: People DO indeed "accuse" this country of being "socialist"! Anytime we begin talking about reininvigorating government programs!
And even when we talk about CUTTING further of what little left remains of government sponsorship, there are rednecks-a-plenty who "accuse" this country of being "socialist"!

Where the fuck have YOU been living???

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:21 pm

AND.......yet.....ONE more li'l item to add, Ezra: them kinfolk I mentioned a sittin' there in Western Europe...these folk I exchange email with every month (nearly, anyway), and THEY openly refer to their system as social democracy - a variant/hybrid of socialism, a word they are not afraid of as you clearly are.

So, let's just say I put a little more credence in their position than in yours, given the geographical subjectivity of it all!

And, now, as I say for, what?, my FOURTH time...time to move on! ('Least till the next round)

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:14 pm

Ok robochrist if your definition of socialism is broad enough to include a market based privately owned economy with a strong social safety net then who am I to disagree? I suppose partisans can hardly do otherwise since if they excluded Western Europe from the fold they would have nowhere to point to a socialist success. And the dream of world socialism died so hard it would be cruel of me to begrudge them Holland. :)

But for the record, my kin back in Georgia think they live in a Christian Republic ordained by God as his Chosen People. Go figure.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter


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