THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:40 pm

Ezra...once again, the world is filled with hybrid economies - MOST of which slide a variable gradient of socialism and capitalism. Again: there is no pure political system; no economy can thrive in a pure political system. Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, (extracted from many other FORMS of socialism) as I spelled it out here, was no an invention of mine; I've no copyright on it. It's a clear-cut definition expressed by Europeans, authors, analysts, and pundits.

Look: Teddy Roosevelt was the first American of the 20th century to use political power for regulatory measures against big business: between 1902 and 1904 he projected himself as a representative of all the people - farmers, laborers, white collar workers - and so on. He recognized that the system, which had been ENTIRELY left to the whims of wealthy capitalists, could only serve everyone fairly if government stepped in. He went on to bring big businesses under strong regulation, becoming the big "trust buster". This was a first in American history. Roosevelt went on to create the Progressive Party in 1912.

This is a clear example - and the earliest - of a socialist/capitalist hybrid taken shape in the U.S.

Yes, indeed: given that model, which many in Europe describe as social democracy, as do many an author and many a pundit, if government takes over and runs things like (fer instance) the postal system, the military, schools, the police force, prisons, and hospitals (except for in OUR rotten society!)...THEN YA GOT SOCIALISM! That is WHY the U.S. has not been a purely capitalist system; if the U.S. is NOT a purely capitalist sytem it means it has, like most other countries in the western hemisphere, the aforementioned elements of socialism, though, sadly, to a lesser extent than Canada and Europe.

What then is MY argument? My argument is that we don't have it enough; we've seen unions diminish since the bullshit Reagan days; we see fewer medical facilities for people without income; NOW, we're even seeing prisons getting privatized! The other countries mentioned, for example, cover its citizens' medical plans extensively if not completely through government. "Socialism". And THAT'S what we need.

That's socialism, Ezra. How you don't get that is eluding ME! You strike me as the type who was raised to fear the word socialism without fully informing yourself about it.

So - yeah! - as you said, who are you do disagree with ME?

But never mind ME: talk to Canadians, Dutch, Germans, and French.

These are HYBRID economies - crossed with capitalism and socialism. Yeah: it's THAT simple!

So, be cognizant about making stupid summations about "Lefties" or "Liberals".

I DO get pissed by that kind of simplistic shit, PROBABLY because I attribute it to the propagandistic nature of Reagan's media in the 1980's - which did a STUPENDOUS job demonizing words like "liberal" and "socialist", reducing them to context-less watchwords that were equated with "evil" and "tyranny", easy banners for illiterates to latch onto. YOU sound like a victim of that symptom.

I also, to be honest, feel a bunch here are and have been doing pretty well financially. Thus, you haven't experienced first hand what I am right now - as Jerry Brown - courtesy A Schwarzenegger- hollows everything, medical facilities, financial safety nets, school budgets, financial aid...EVERYTHING that offers mobility for most of us. Mobility is being stolen from the American people whose own disconnect, in turn, invited this economic and cultural tsunami! Anything that has to do with government is being demonized and expunged - the counterweights we need for a market system to function properly. The system HAS to be partly SOCIALIZED!

Teddy Roosevelt was the first powerful political American figure to understand that.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:57 am

robochrist what can I say without simply repeating myself?

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
(Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 6)
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:58 am

"How much louder did I need to explain this to you?"
-----(guy at work)
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:43 pm

Does everybody forget the simple fact that there are different kinds of socialism? There are forms of socialism where workers themselves run the society, the most democratic forms of socialism, I'd add.

Even in America there are socialist forms, all mixed up, or there are parts of our society that are socialistic like Medicare, Social Security, Unions, Food Stamps, education. The problem here is that corporations control much of how this socialism is divided. We socialize risk, so that corporations can make their profits. Ha-joon Chang has been stellar on this topic.

The other economies are mixed, part markets, part socialist reforms, as a way to protect people from the market's abuse, what are called externalities. One problem is for their societies to work they have to limit immigration, since the social welfare burdon is creating very bad racism there. Right wing parties and austerity fever could sever any socialist victory, some day soon. They should always be on hot alert for that.

I'm getting awfully tired about this tedious discussion about human nature. We know next to nothing.

What Robobutta didn't mention is that market capitalism is a form of Utopia. He's right, that form doesn't work, that's why we need protections from it.

Utopia is hope for a better world. Call me naive, I think it can work. Getting the word out is the challenge.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:17 pm

You do know what Utopia actually means, don't you? Basically Nowhere.

Plus, all Utopias imagined and depicted are already completed pieces of work which require no change. Which means that people who do change can't live in them. Which is pretty much why there will never be a Utopia.

But, then, we're using the term imprecisely, as a kind of nebulous goal wherein problems are minimized and benefits maximized.

I always wondered, though, in all the Uptopias I've ever read about----where was the wealth actually generated?

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:43 pm

Look at all the times capitalism failed and it had to be bailed out. Socialism fails once and we can never try it again. Why can't socialism get the same leeway capitalism gets?

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:57 pm

Here's a near-future Utopia I feel could be awaiting us: the American voters will bring back a Republican administration and reinforce Congress further with a Republican majority; the multitude of lizard brains will need another round of Conservative policies to recognize the pattern we saw up to 2008.

Yeah, it won't surprise me at all come November, as right now I smell little promise in the air.

Scott McKinley
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Scott McKinley » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:22 pm

If I might interrupt for just the briefest of moments: Just curious if anyone has talked to Harlan or Susan, and if so, how they're coping with this bad week that's finally ending?

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:41 pm

Harlan and Susan: I suspect they're staying off line to deal with the loss of their close friend. It's gotta be VERY hard for Harlan.

The time to leave 'em be. They'll be back after they get through it all.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:41 pm

Scott McKinley wrote:If I might interrupt for just the briefest of moments: Just curious if anyone has talked to Harlan or Susan, and if so, how they're coping with this bad week that's finally ending?


Scott, yes. Thank you for your concern. The answer is "about as well as can be expected". They are feeling -- understandably -- very low, but appreciate the sentiments of their friends and the support of their fans. Very difficult times. Time will out, but a very bad week indeed.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

Scott McKinley
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Scott McKinley » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:04 pm

Thank you, Steve. I'm sure Harlan will return when he's ready to, but I was concerned the stress might have led to worse consequences and I was concerned. I posted here rather than the Pavvy because the last thing Harlan or Susan needs is to have someone they've never met stick a textual microphone in front of them and ask "So; you've lost one of your best friends. How do you feel?"

For myself, I've never met Mr. Bradbury but...well; you know. We all have a 5000 word essay within him/her on what Ray Bradbury meant personally to them (no?), and not all of us write so well as you and the pros on this site.

diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:33 pm

Rick and Steve,

I double clicked on my "Getting Older" thread like the frantic lab rat I am, in a hurry to say little. Could one of you ex out the double please? Merci.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:26 am

Diane, blame it on doublethink.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:37 pm

Great quote from Chris Hayes:

"As we become more and more elitist, elites become worse." No doubt.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:24 pm



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