THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

Moderator: Moderator

paul
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:04 pm
Location: ATX
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby paul » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:39 pm

Fred Pohl. For fucks sake.
The medium is the message.

User avatar
Robert Nason
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:50 am
Location: New York City

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:16 am

Lori -- Chomsky will be against any use of American military force anywhere, at any time, for any reason. He can do it in his sleep. Still, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

User avatar
Lori Koonce
Posts: 3538
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: San Francisco California
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:56 am

Robert Nason wrote:Lori -- Chomsky will be against any use of American military force anywhere, at any time, for any reason. He can do it in his sleep. Still, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.



Robert

I'm a hawkish pacifist. I don't think we need to police the world, but if we choose to do so we'd best have damned good reasons to do so.

Dr. Chomsky made some valid points. I don't agree with them all, but as you said even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:26 pm

Lori, Chomsky agrees that we should try everything to avoid bombing which could make the violence worse, but if everything is tried then we can arm the rebels, or the rebels who are not completely crazy.

I may actually disagree with my noble Professor for one time a year or so. lol.

Violence usually begets more violence, it doesn't tend to stop it. It stopped the Russians, but it also created Al Qaida.

-----------

Nason, Chomsky says you can discuss human nature, but only in theory and in poetry. In the sciences we know zilch.

You ducked my point about the worm.

People do great good and great evil. We really don't know why.

----------

Nason, You may have missed this. This is eerily similar to what he said about Syria, but this is about Bosnia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1UaDlQDTVI

The people with the most arms do the most violence. Aha, think about that one. If we arm the other side what will they do? Nothing is stopping them from doing even worse crimes.

Just dropping bombs make us feel good but the externals are usually awful.

User avatar
Ezra Lb.
Posts: 4547
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:02 am
Location: Washington, DC

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:27 pm

Frank if you and your guru honestly think that the nation with the most advanced military power in history should just stand by and do nothing while tens of thousands of innocent people are brutally slaughtered, fine, but at least have the honesty to come out and say it and please stop all these bullshit rationalizations. :roll:
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

User avatar
Steve Evil
Posts: 3519
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:22 pm
Location: Some Cave in Kanata
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:34 pm

I'm no fan of chemical weapons. If they can convince me they can save more people can they can kill by dropping bombs on urban areas, I'll go with it.

They've got some work to do. . .

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:42 pm

Max Fsger has done just about the best job possible laying out the issues, rationale, end games and various chess pieces/moves I have read to date. I agree with each and every one of his points, and even Frank will nod knowingly and in agreement with more than a few (if he's being honest with himself, let alone us).

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/29/9-questions-about-syria-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
Robert Nason
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:50 am
Location: New York City

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:05 am

Frank, what was that question about the worm again? I must have missed it.

The unpleasant truth is that sometimes violence does solve things. I could give you examples, but you already know them. Besides the violence is already going on in Syria, and the use of chemical weapons bt the Assad regime is a clear violation of internationsl law and norms of human decency. (Yes, I had a hard time typing "norms of human decency" just as much as you did reading it without a smirk.) For better or worse, America is the only superpower in the world now, and that carries a certain responsibility. For all its flaws, American liberated hundreds of millions of people from fascism, Nazism, and Soviet communism; there's a reason why millions of immigrants desperately want to come here. I'm not ashamed to say it: America is a noble country which has been more often than not a force for good in the world, and that world invariably turns to us when it needs help. It's not a role we sought, but history has bequethed it to us, like it or not. What America does matters -- so let's not blow it.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:18 am

Ezra, blessed are the peacemakers.

Nason, in science they look at a worm that has 300 neurons and about a thousand cells. Our brains have zillions of neurons. When the little worm turns left we have no idea why he does it or how.

So, has violence went down in Iraq and Afghanistan? I win.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:20 am

Barber, I'm with the majority of the country and congress. We need to either work for peace or tell the Weathermen that we were wrong--their violence was justified since it did stop the Vietnam war.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:58 am

The case is getting mightly flimsy:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/09/02/2 ... idXjjd0mSo

User avatar
Moderator
Site Admin
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:17 pm
Contact:

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:12 am

Did you read the article, Frank?
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:06 pm

I don't trust or ever read the Washington Post, sorry. McClatchy is much better.

Call me cynical, but I know longer trust the bastards.

I really hate John Kerry right now.

User avatar
Robert Nason
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:50 am
Location: New York City

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:35 pm

Violence stopped the fascists and Nazis cold in their murderous tracks and liberated the desth camps and occupied countries. Two atom bombs dropped on Japan stopped Japanese aggression and prevented an invasion of mainland Japan which would have cost millions of lives. Violence enabled Hemingway to liberate the bar in the Paris Ritz Hotel in 1944. I win.

Maybe Kerry's testimony before Congress in the early seventies did more to help end the Vietnam war than the senseless murders of the Weathermen. You have to know when and where it's appropriate to use force. Who ever elected the Weathermen to anything?

I have nothing to add about worms, except for those Republicans who are are opposing Obama on Syria solely because they don't like the guy.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

User avatar
FrankChurch
Posts: 16283
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:00 pm

Barber, I read it. I didn't want you going off on me. lol

Fisher has some good points. I don't get how he can read Obama's mind, but that's another thing.

He agrees with Robert Fisk that it is about Iran in certain ways. A lot of it is about Israel and Iran more than the chemical gas. He is right that a strike would not do very much, the main points our side makes. Punishing Assad is a new norm in international law. I disagree that Obama cannot convince Russia. I doubt Russia wants to be outside looking like dolts.

Fisher is right that the violence will go on for years, that's why any strike is a waste of time.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests