THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu May 15, 2014 2:01 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Middle of May and it is freezing. Suckerfuckerduckerbucker.



100+ in Long Beach.

No, no global climate change here. Please move along.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Robert Nason
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Thu May 15, 2014 3:05 pm

Frank, you don't seem to appreciate that the poor are morally no better as a group than the rich, just less smart or less lucky. When a poor.person becomes rich he or she often brings along.all the baggage of prejudice and bigotry they had when poor and uneducated. Look at Donald Sterling. You need to view the world from another lens than the tired nineteenth-century mmelodrama of class conflict.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Thu May 15, 2014 4:18 pm

We tied a record overnight low last night for Houston - 49.

Gorgeous day today, though.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu May 15, 2014 7:52 pm

Here in DC it's not global warming it's global raining. I think this has been as wet a winter and spring as I can remember since I came up here in 98. And the temperature is expected to drop almost ten degrees by tomorrow.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu May 15, 2014 8:18 pm

Robert N. ~

Of course, somewhere between "less smart" and "less lucky" lies a wide maze of varied, complex reasons for a person's circumstances and often even more complex causes prolonging the burden. Additionally, the type of economic system involved plays a role as well.

Are you informed about the subject, beyond the anecdotal?

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Robert Nason
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Thu May 15, 2014 8:53 pm

Rob, the subject is nothing less than life itself, about which nobody has ever been fully informed -- we're all grasping at straws and attempting to build our bridges with it.

There have been "winners" and "losers" in every socio-comic system in recorded history. And invariably the "winners" brag that they're where they are because of their enormous talent and skill, while the "losers" protest that they're where they are because "the system is rigged against me." It has ever been thus.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu May 15, 2014 10:15 pm

Well...I only asked if you were "informed" about it. There's never "fully informed" about such things. But there IS the much-neglected responsibility of culling enough information to make an even-handed judgement beyond what might be a reckless one. Naturally relative poverty exists in every system every country, but some address the statistical free-fall better than others. The checks-and-balances incorporated into an economic system absolutely play a role in lives that drop through the floor.

Of the most advanced western democracies, for example, ours rates just about the lowest. In fact, it stinks.

If we're not more responsible for the information we gather before we examine an issue people get hurt by stereotypes and simplistic generalizations. Like the stuff we get from Donald Sterling or Pat McCrory.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri May 16, 2014 5:35 am

Robert Nason wrote:There have been "winners" and "losers" in every socio-comic system in recorded history. And invariably the "winners" brag that they're where they are because of their enormous talent and skill, while the "losers" protest that they're where they are because "the system is rigged against me." It has ever been thus.


This sounds too much like the timeless "well, that's just the way things are...and there's nothing you can do to change it." As if the two extremes "winners" and "losers" are somehow the opposite ends of a bell curve following a Newtonian calculus of inevitability. Granted, it's a great big thorny problem, but too often the "winners" use that kind of thinking to justify continuing things as they are, regardless.

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Robert Nason
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Robert Nason » Fri May 16, 2014 9:51 am

But Mark, I just admitted that the "winners" have explanations, spurious or not, to justify their success, just as the "losers" have explanations to justify.their failure. And of course I'm aware there's a continuum between "winners" and "losers" -- and it never fails to amaze me how virtually every person I talk to long enough is able to tell me where they think they belong on that continuum (as well as where they'd like to belong). I'm not making any apologies for this system -- I'm just describing it. The fact that there's never been a truly "equal" (in terms of status, power, and money) mass-society in history to date doesn't mean that there can't be one in the future. Or at least one where there's much less inequality. I leave it to you and others to figure out how to make such a society come into being.
"Thought is a strenuous art -- few practice it, and then only at rare times." - David Ben-Gurion

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri May 16, 2014 11:36 am

Mark...you GOT it!

It's a lazy, evasive way of thinking, and when widespread it breeds apathy and cold-blooded disenfranchisement to millions. And with lots of collateral: among other things, higher crime rates, widening class rifts, bad education, inequitable prison sentences...and, in the end, an outright rotten society.

No such thing as the ultimate solution. But there's often a better one.

BTW, a few examples of things we overlook that contribute misfortune: abusive parents traumatizing their kids where they're emotionally and/or cognitively incapacitated in their adult years, mental illness (autism, adhd, ptsd, etc), emotional and cognitive incapacitation from abusive parents subjecting their kids to trauma which can , mental illness, and, of course, sometimes drug or alcohol addiction. Often it's a combination of this shit.

When we're aware of these complex realities we're better equipped to seek out the right remedies. Those who can't understand this are probably unreachable. Which is damn sad.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri May 16, 2014 11:38 am

Typo there - accidentally repeating a sentence.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Fri May 16, 2014 12:55 pm

Nason wins the Desert Island list, but I really hope he's got lots of water handy cause that's one dry viewing set...

Of course I was amused that Harlan referenced a Desert island versus the much more survivable Deserted (not deserted) island.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Fri May 16, 2014 1:05 pm

Robert Nason, certainly wins the most droll list submitted so far. I have to say I was proud of my Saturday matinee double feature.

Steve had mentioned that I should stop by the Forums again when I saw him a couple of weeks ago so I thought I would pop my head in, since I am rather unmotivated to do work on a Friday afternoon

Interesting to note the MP & the Holy Grail seems to be the most frequently cited movie in the lists to date, as is the fact that Barber & I had a number of the same films
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri May 16, 2014 1:09 pm

Somebody's gotta ask Dennis how THE WILD BUNCH is "rarely-touted"!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri May 16, 2014 1:26 pm

markabaddon: "Governments, if they endure"

Of course, if "government" is overly pruned, SOMEONE will forthwith take charge with torch and noose in hand, guaranteed, and most likely in their own interests. No such animal, "no government", and none such will ever exist. Paradoxically, government has to be fairly big in order to keep its own checks in place.


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