THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:03 pm

fossile fuel is still the source of energy.( 90%)

Trains (in Europe) only need electical power. In Germany, the electrical power is already made up of 16.5% clean energy (2009; will be 30% in 2020), nuclear is at 21% (gone between 2020 and 2030). Power will be cleaner and cleaner over time.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:05 pm

Jan wrote:Power will be cleaner and cleaner over time.
that is the goal.
inevitable as well, in the long run.
illinois gets about 75% of elec. from nukes, likely to be phased out, in due time.
safer, more economic modular nukes may come to offer some respite.

i offered "can do" inspiration, practical experience, and helped my younger brother build his home (only around 30 days labor on my end). the only things he hired out were excavation, concrete supply, drywall and paint.
super-insulated, triple-glazed, passive and circulated water solar heat, and at least 200 sq. ft. of high end photovoltaics.
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:08 pm

Jan wrote:Trains (in Europe) only need electical power.
no diesel-electric hybrids in europe?
follow your bliss,mike

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:08 am

Well sure, but by and large trains will be electric. In Germany 90% of DB's trains are electric at the moment. (And modern trains require less energy because they are build with lighter (mostly recyclable) materials, among other reasons.)

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:47 am

i would not be surprised if the US will lag behind europe in achieving full elect rail by 20 yrs. or more.
our scattered population centers (and elec. grids) and thousands of miles of track in the middle of nowhere give us a bit of a different scenario.
the completion will be tied to either oil supply or emissions, probably both, and may call for dedicated power sources (pocket nukes, mini coal powered units, etc..
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:31 pm

I said no nukes. Don't make me come over there.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:52 pm

FrankChurch wrote:I said no nukes. Don't make me come over there.

frank,
we are all here
i would give anything to ensure a risk free future, but it ain't gonna happen.
vigilance, not fear.
follow your bliss,mike

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:53 pm

i would not be surprised if the US will lag behind europe in achieving full elect rail by 20 yrs. or more.
our scattered population centers (and elec. grids) and thousands of miles of track in the middle of nowhere give us a bit of a different scenario.

Different scenario but not really any more challenging or more expensive. It's actually easier to put electricity over long uninterrupted tracks. It's difficult and more expensive to put it where tracks meet and cross, which happens at larger train stations.
The difference between total track kilometers in Germany and in the US is in proportion to the difference in population figures, so it's nothing Americans can't handle.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby reddragon70 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:35 pm

Just as an interested party, I hate driving electirc trains. Really. I thankfully havent turned a wheel on an electric unit for 7 years. Theyre a pain in the neck. If something goes wrong it is absolute bloody murder to work out what the hell it actually is. At least with a diesel you can hear whats going on and that gives you a clue. Electrics are silent (well very quiet at least) and usually all you have to go on is a few lights in the cab from which you have to figure out the problem.

So there you are, from a drivers point of view, diesel rules. From an environmental point of view, electric rules. From a spotters point of view, its steam. Anyway, trains are a good. They allow me to work and get paid. Which is nice

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:54 pm

by cynic » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:44 pm
Jan wrote:
The difference between total track kilometers in Germany and in the US is in proportion to the difference in population figures,

(me)that fact (if it is) does not address the fact that high population areas in the us are separated by large distances.
Jan wrote:
so it's nothing Americans can't handle.

(me)certainly (?) it will be handled.
the main diff. lies in the us trans continental rail (broken by the historical great lakes (st. lawrence seaway) and chicago rail hub).
whatever reasonable use the us coast to coast (or mississippi to the rockies, if you prefer) rail service has, and will continue to serve, is the determining factor in the advancement of the shift to full electric rail.
Jan wrote:
Different scenario but not really any more challenging or more expensive

(me)this different scenario, and the cost/benefit, is the very reason why the us (and europe) are not already fully electric.

in the us; "thousands of miles of track in the middle of nowhere" that now depend on diesel electric.
follow your bliss,mike

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Duane
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Duane » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:37 pm

The high speed rail idea may be a blessing in the end. I just have a hard time getting my head around a 30 billion dollar project that serves a need that is largely being served while our state (CA) wallows in seemingly insurmountable public debt.

In the meantime, considering Conservatives already tell our schools to teach non-existent "controversies" in evolution and global warming, and that developers (spurred on by the laissez faire banking system) are plowing virgin wilderness under as fast as they can get permits to build yet another subdivision anchored by another Walmart, and let's not even get started on the oil companies and banks... gee, you think we could have health care? I'd ask my facebook family and friends, but that would just make the next family reunion awkward. :D

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:17 pm

Blame the Democrats for going along with this debt hawk garbage. The debt doesn't matter right now. The economy must be fixed first, then any debt could right itself. Most of the important progressive economists tend to agree.

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:20 pm

(me)that fact (if it is) does not address the fact that high population areas in the us are separated by large distances.
this different scenario, and the cost/benefit, is the very reason why the us (and europe) are not already fully electric.

For the cost of electrification the distance between cities is of no concern, only the total amount of tracks. The benefits, on the other hand, regard energy costs and the environment - the tracks and the trains are there either way: diesel or electricity. The benefits are higher when tracks are used frequently, when oil is expensive, and when we have to address pollution problems.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:48 pm

Now that we've sacked the legislative debacle over just a little regulation on the insurance crime syndicate, I personally think Washington's next IMMEDIATE matter should be Wall Street. Where I last left off in the news, assuming I haven't missed events since then, those Wall Street pricks over there are still abusing our tax money, opening the chance of a new economic crash. Imagine how many people across the country would be devastated. How long would it take for the country to recuperate from a whole new round!

This remains my biggest gripe right now with the Obama administration and Congress.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:06 pm

Jan wrote: For the cost of electrification the distance between cities is of no concern,
certainly the 10% (+/-) loss in long distance energy transmission may not be a major stumbling block. adding the third rail or overhead transmision line is a considerable concern, as is the added production and transmision of electicity to power them.

it can't happen fast enough for me either jan.

Jan wrote: only the total amount of tracks
of which we may have too few, or as yet inadequately scheduled and utilized.
since the interstate highway project after wwII, our system has been neglected, lines have been shut down and scavenged for rail and scrap, largely due to flexible, low overhead long haul trucking.

.
Jan wrote: The benefits, on the other hand, regard energy costs and the environment
absolutely, as i have said myself, but only after massive restructure and realignment of our present cross country system.

Jan wrote: the tracks and the trains are there either way: diesel or electricity. The benefits are higher when tracks are used frequently,
absolutely, it is our long distant, low traffic tracks that will be the last to convert.

Jan wrote: when oil is expensive, and when we have to address pollution problems.
uh , yeah, thats what i said.
follow your bliss,mike


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