THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:03 pm

3. don't invade
follow your bliss,mike

RocRizzo
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby RocRizzo » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:15 pm

Rick,
Thoughts for your wife's quick recovery are in my heart and mind. So are those for peace and prosperity for you and your family.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:25 pm

[quote="Lori Koonce]

The only measureable difference between him and I is that I've got the ability to talk myself outta shooting people.
[/quote]

Which is a huge difference. Indeed, it's as good a criteria for sanity as any I know.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:39 pm

Rick, Steven, and Chuck,

Thoughts, prayers, prayers and well-wishes, as many as I can muster.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:53 pm

"Does everyone who behaves a little oddly now deserve the scrutiny of society? In the same way anyone who looks just "a little too muslim" commonly gets after 9/11?"

I think gun control is the main thing there. It should simply be difficult if not impossible for people who have a history of emotional or psychological instability to obtain a gun. Ban the assault weapons, and make background checks extensive. I don't care if the terms seem bias: it SHOULD be bias. If someone seems "odd" in his behavior patter, a gun might be harmful to himself or others.

As far as I'm concerned, it should be almost impossible for civilians to buy a gun. Let the munitions market cater to law enforcement departments, government and private.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:46 pm

Barber: Don't sweat it, I put it out there for public comsumption. You are a part of that public and you consumed it as your saw fit. I make it a habit to never put out those things that I don't want people knowing in a place where they may find it.

Steve Evil: Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I can get extremely violent, I just don't go around bragging about it. Remind me to tell ya about the time I almost beat someone with one of those metal things that keep ropes of the ground and let you know where the line is. Oh, and the time I almost killed a relation by throwing them against the door in the kitchen of my childhood home. And let's not even get me started on all the time I've bruised persons by hitting them jokeingly a bit harder than I should.....

Frank: The reason people do that is because if you pay any attention it's how most socoipaths behave, and the majority of them are men. Richard Speck, Jeffery Dahlmer... The list goes on. But they for the most part were male. And white.


Robo: More than gun control, better mental health services are needed. Prehaps if he got the help he needed this would have never had to happen. I know many people who are as schizoid as him, and with medication they live ver

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markabaddon
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:09 pm

OK, Keeney & I spoke about this briefly on the phone last night, but blood libel is the accusation that Jews have used the blood of christians, specifically Christian children, in religious ceremonies most notoriously during the Passover seder. It has been used to forment violence against my people for somewhere close to 1,000 years. For Palin to use that term, espeically when one of the prominent victims was Jewish (and yes, the Congresswoman is Jewish, she self-identifies as such). Although it would be reprehensible under any circumstances, when one of the victims is a Jew in my mind it becomes even more of a slap in the face

The Anti-defamation league and various jewish agencies all jumped on this immediately and even that right wing nutjob Jonah Goldberg said that Palin's choice of words was poor. Whether she knew what she was saying or not (and I believe she probably did not, but the people around her should have known) this pushes her even further to the margins as a candidate, as the use of violent imagery under such circumstances is not something I think the American people could ever support

Rick, thoughts and prayers to you, my friend

Lori, I agree, mental health services need to be a priority but sadly they are often some of the first services cut during an economic crunch. I anticipate this problem becoming worse, not better, as states face huge shortfalls in their budgets over the course of the next few years
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Mark

Tell me something I don't all ready know. I'm scared to death that Gov. Brown's cuts to Medi-cal (the Californian name for Medi-care) are gonna cause me to have to give up my therapy. I'm not bad enough to be a serious danger to the State, but I know a lot of people who could be. My medication makes things easier for me, I'm not looking forward to seeing some of my more seriously sick friends have to endure.

BTW, I'm not stupid by any stretch, and not only did I not know that Ms. Giffords was Jewish untill something was mentioned on NPR about her Temple, but I had to google Blood Libel, and I'm a fucking christian. Could it be possible that neither Palin or her staff knew what they were invoking?

Not that it's an excuse. I mean just invoking the image of blood is bad enough.

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FinderDoug
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:56 pm

Steve,

Good question. My feeling? We can't. Not on a broad level. I honestly don't believe that mankind, as a species, is intellectually mature enough to conduct itself with that level of rationality. Not so long as you have elements such as

- bias (be it racial, social, intellectual, geographical, genealogical, or fifty other variables that can go here)
- political agendas (because people who want power need a way to build it)
- personal agendas (because there are always people with an agenda to further themselves)
- human fear
- human ignorance

The very nature and psychological make-up of man puts individualism at risk every day, and I suspect it always will, so long as you have 1) an alpha with an axe to grind and 2) a pack that's either willing to follow the alpha, or willing to act to placate the alpha.

If someone wants to analyze another through the filter of another's deeds/misdeeds/malfunctions, we can only do our due vigilance to keep it from becoming a mandatory litmus test for {X}. And even then, with enough power behind it, it may not be easily stopped. And as we know from the Bush II era, all a lie really needs to become a perceived truth is to be repeated enough times - and innuendo lasts even longer.

If we want freedom from what you posit - if we want a Lori to not suffer because of the acts of a Jared - then we sadly need to evolve as a species beyond the "us and them" mentality that holds so many in its grip- and much like a troubled kid who picks up a gun, people with those particular types of bias and suspicion and fear need to WANT to be helped past them.

The thing that is only a little haunting to me is that Jared Loughner could easily have fit in as poster here from what I've read of him so far - fiercely intelligent, jazz lover, read a lot of Philip K Dick, had an interest in alternate realities and the nature of reality itself. Easily the equipment of an intellectual packed inside somewhere - except at some point between A and B he got caught up in his internal flywheels and pivoted towards madness - and even though people saw signs, and could tell something was wrong, until he fired the gun, he hadn't done anything to put himself in a position to be sent for a psych evaluation. I mean, if we grabbed people for talking to themselves, it'd be the biggest party of my friends I'd ever attended.

Which makes me wonder just how many circumstances stand between any of us and madness on any given day.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:01 pm

Lori, time for you and many likeminded comrades to picket Jerry Brown's office if need be. Another rope hung across the gorge of austerity.

The governers are afraid that if they raise taxes their precious corporate buddies will leave town.

Brown used to admire my Noamy, now he is going moderate.

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:24 pm

Blood Libel

Palin or a speechwriter may have read this :
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lood+Libel
follow your bliss,mike

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:41 pm

Lori, re: mental health services

No argument there at ALL! Mental health in this country - and this includes counseling for dysfunctional kids being raised in an emotionally abusive environment - has LONG been underfunded, neglected, and cut from budgets drastically, in lockstep with the callousness so pervasive in our system.

The gun control issue has to intersect with the mental health programs, in order to implement the policy I summarized in my last post. In general, it should be VERY difficult for civilians to get a gun; but much of the framework should be tied to mental health.

FinderDoug brings my mind an interesting discussion I heard on Thom Hartmann recently. Hartmann weighed the question as to whether or not human beings are genetically CAPABLE of a democracy, in that our tendency to follow belief over logic is innate. We have the tribal instincts of our hunter-gatherer ancestors, driven to hunt, and compete for and exploit every resource available. I think we're programmed to perpetuate "the tribe", not the species. Hence, altruism and self-sacrifice are an outcome of social conditioning; they are not innate. Since tribal bonds - whether economic or social - characterize our nature, we tend to bind ourselves to conviction over the need for information. We prefer to trust our beliefs to confirming the data, even though we obviously have a better chance to survive if we KNOW or confirm the facts!

This is ultimately detrimental to democracy, since it surrenders so much power to the few - the "tribe" - that hold MOST of the resources.

This is why I think we're such a threat to ourselves. For all our complexity, we're innately primitive. I'm definitely convinced that as long as the masses are so complacently deluded, I don't think we're capable of sustaining a democracy! It's also the reason capitalism caters to our baser and corrosive instincts.

The thesis also ties into a subject called ecopsychology, but I'll leave that for another time.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:19 pm

Robo

Try this on for size. Whether it be an AK47 or a pistol, a gun is only gonna be able to shoot the bullets that are loaded into it and not a thing more.

So, instead of gun control, why not just put a limit on the number of rounds in a clip? Laughtner would have had to been a damned good shot to have killed 6 if he only had 10 rounds in his clip.


Frank

What makes you think we haven't beenn protesting? I was in front of the local federal court protesting cuts to ISSH, which is the only thing keeping some people outta insitutions. But I gotta give Brown his props. Half of our balenced budget is done with cuts to services, and the other half will be done with voter approved tax cuts. Just how many he'll get us to agree to remains to be seen, but still....

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:11 pm

"instead of gun control, why not just put a limit on the number of rounds in a clip?"

I would say that's PART of gun control, which is not defined by just a single policy.

Likewise, another part of the policy should be, as we suggested, curtailing the ability to buy a gun for those with emotional or psychological issues.

A few years ago, I myself was so emotionally fucked, I was seriously thinking suicide - a scenario in which "clips" obviously serve no argument. I actually went around to see about buying a gun. Maybe it's the policy in California, or in Los Angeles, but stores made it very difficult for me to make the purchase. I couldn't just "walk out" with a gun. I got a tad too frustrated, and gave up. That policy may have saved my life.

"Gun Control" has to consider many different types of crises among civilians, and therefore has to be defined by different strategic policies.

I think our conversation just demonstrated how much oversight goes into the national debate!

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:58 pm

And I am tired of the bigotry of profiling of shy, white males; guys who have problems with women, may like weird sci-fi mental fiction.

Something you want to tell us about Frank?


Lori wrote

Whether it be an AK47 or a pistol, a gun is only gonna be able to shoot the bullets that are loaded into it and not a thing more.

Which leads to my suggestion. Since gun ownership is so sacrosanct why not take another tack altogether and heavily regulate the sale of ammunition?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter


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