THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:09 pm

FrankChurch wrote: We do know that touring is the way most artists make money nowadays. Cris will do fine as long as she understands that doing it live is how she will continue to make a living. Records just promote the live show.


Did you even read my post? Cris turned down a concert because they essentially wanted her to perform for free.

If she can't make money on the sales of cds, and can't make money on the concerts, it's a pretty lean existence -- and I consider her to be far more an example of the average musician than is a wealthy supergroup. You realize, Frank, you're arguing on behalf of the corporate supergroup and not on behalf of the individual musician? You favor circumstances that destroy the little and middle, in favor of things only the elite can survive. The vast majority of mid-range performers need ALL sources of income just to make ends meet.

Again, you devalue art in favor of personal greed.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:15 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Has Lady Gaga accomplished more than Cris?


Yes.

She has.

It's that simple.

Cris has more talent as a signer, IMHO, but Lady Gaga is far more successful and accomplished than Cris is. Remember the last Grammy Awards when the world was shocked that talented nobody Esperanza Spalding beat Justin Bieber for a Grammy -- that's because the label's publicity machine should have beaten her with the way the industry works. Don't conflate the word "accomplished" with the word "talented". Lady Gaga is far more accomplished than virtually anyone in jazz other than perhaps Diana Krall, and certainly far more well-known.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Frank and I am saying this to you quite seriously - There is so much good in the worst of us,and so much bad in the best of us, that there aint one of us that has any business talking about the rest of us.

My point about you taking college classes was that in my college experience, I learned to really hear, understand, evaluate and then effectively criticize ideas and viewpoints other than my own. Seldom does this type of debate involve a one- sided rant of views, with a sarcastic and snide response to anyone who disagrees with you. I am really sick of it. You need to read outside Chomsky and his followers to get an alternate view. And I was horrified by your comment that thats all the education you need. I have been reading widely since I was a child and having many years of formal post-secondary education. Yet I can not imagine having all the education I either need or want. What an ignorant, short sighted comment.
You say you come here to invoke controversy and attention for you non-main stream ideas. But with the way you act, all you do is personally anger and offend the people here. For months, I skipped any comment you made here. And I am now sorry I reengaged.

In terms of the conversation with Steve, based on your stated opinions, I assume you give you catering services away for free to your clients, or you belong to a commune/cooperative to whom you give the profit and they then provide you with you basic needs; if this is not the case, and you personally take the profits from your labor, then you are a flat out hypocrite.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Frank and I am saying this to you quite seriously - There is so much good in the worst of us,and so much bad in the best of us, that there aint one of us that has any business talking about the rest of us.

My point about you taking college classes was that in my college experience, I learned to really hear, understand, evaluate and then effectively criticize ideas and viewpoints other than my own. Seldom does this type of debate involve a one- sided rant of views, with a sarcastic and snide response to anyone who disagrees with you. I am really sick of it. You need to read outside Chomsky and his followers to get an alternate view. And I was horrified by your comment that thats all the education you need. I have been reading widely since I was a child and having many years of formal post-secondary education. Yet I can not imagine having all the education I either need or want. What an ignorant, short sighted comment.
You say you come here to invoke controversy and attention for you non-main stream ideas. But with the way you act, all you do is personally anger and offend the people here. For months, I skipped any comment you made here. And I am now sorry I reengaged.

In terms of the conversation with Steve, based on your stated opinions, I assume you give you catering services away for free to your clients, or you belong to a commune/cooperative to whom you give the profit and they then provide you with you basic needs; if this is not the case, and you personally take the profits from your labor, then you are a flat out hypocrite.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:42 pm

Frank and I am saying this to you quite seriously - There is so much good in the worst of us,and so much bad in the best of us, that there aint one of us that has any business talking about the rest of us.

My point about you taking college classes was that in my college experience, I learned to really hear, understand, evaluate and then effectively criticize ideas and viewpoints other than my own. Seldom does this type of debate involve a one- sided rant of views, with a sarcastic and snide response to anyone who disagrees with you. I am really sick of it. You need to read outside Chomsky and his followers to get an alternate view. And I was horrified by your comment that thats all the education you need. I have been reading widely since I was a child and having many years of formal post-secondary education. Yet I can not imagine having all the education I either need or want. What an ignorant, short sighted comment.
You say you come here to invoke controversy and attention for you non-main stream ideas. But with the way you act, all you do is personally anger and offend the people here. For months, I skipped any comment you made here. And I am now sorry I reengaged.

In terms of the conversation with Steve, based on your stated opinions, I assume you give you catering services away for free to your clients, or you belong to a commune/cooperative to whom you give the profit and they then provide you with you basic needs; if this is not the case, and you personally take the profits from your labor, then you are a flat out hypocrite.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:41 pm

Publishing houses could pool resources--best selling books would put their money in a pool with low selling books, they would all share equally, each getting the same amount every year.


Thus de-incentivizing talented writers from putting their blood on the page, and hacks from ever trying to improve.

Congratulations, Frank - you just killed the entire craft of writing.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:03 am

Frank.

I comes down to this: No one. Not you. Not me. Not a corporation. Has the right to tell an artist what they are going to do with their work UNLESS -- and this is major -- they have PAID for that right. Otherwise the artist controls the dispensation of the art. Period.

If a corporation buys the right to use the workk then they have the right to expect payment on behalf of the artist for any approved use of the work. Period.

No one has any entitlement to distribute or use the work without permission -- expressed and explicit -- from the copyright owner.

To post, stream, sell, copy, distribute or any other activity is stealing. Theft. Robbery. Larceny. The victim, ultimately is the person who created the work, or the corporation which paid good money for the rights to that work.

It's astounding to me you continue to argue the point that you ought to be permitted to rip off the artist. It's self-serving, greedy and ultimately destructive for you or anyone to assert that they alone can decide for the artist who gets their work and who pays for it. To assert that their right as a consumer trumps the right of the artist to get paid. That's absurdist and entirely self-serving.

That's like expecting your sous to work for free any time you feel like catering a job. After all, it gets them attention, right?

(When was the last time the pizza delivery guy let you have the pizza for free, just because you demanded it. If it was for a party did they let you have it for expoisure to your friends in the hopes your friends might order and pay for one themselves?)

Thought not.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:26 am

Still have no idea why you are attempting to have a constructive argument with someone who is clearly incapable of having one.

Personally, I prefer finding other organizations that use the acronym CIA that could be in control of the world. I like Barber's use of the Culinary Institute of America and am struggling to find a better one. Considered proposing the Cleveland Institute of Art, but was not sure it was sinister enough. Anyone have a better idea?
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:44 pm

Still have no idea why you are attempting to have a constructive argument with someone who is clearly incapable of having one.

Art for art's sake.


Pizza, like information, wants to be free!


Celestial Intervention Agency

Circumcision Information Australia (ouch!)
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:46 pm

Good lord guys, nobody 'rips off' the artist more than corporate America; just like they rip off workers and rip off customers, especially health insurance companies, who can collude on prices.

And praytell, when did I ever say I had a love affair with ripping off artists? Now how unfair is that to accuse me of something, when you know my stance--I am so pro-art, culture, that I want all artists to make bank, mostly from government funding. I support all artists, where you all seem to support this system that props up corporate control of art and of culture, culture that will die if we do not something, fast!

Corporate America is about short term profit, the bottom line. They have no qualms with seeing art die. Copyrights are used to protect their control. Smaller artists fall for the line, just as the tea baggers fall for the line that taxes are always evil.

At least, if you are going to show my side, show it honestly.

---------------

FinderDougie, the hacks as you call them would lose if you pooled resources. They would not get the high-end cuts they get now and would have to share their money with the Hubert Selby's and Castros of the world. Also, hackism is in the eye of beholder. Sure, some of us here are elitists, but we are outnumbered.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:56 pm

Sorry about the double posts. The reply screen is doing that shakey, shakey thing again.

---------------

The actual CIA--Central Intelligence Agency--23 to be exact, where in the bowels of the Minnesota state capital, to question Ventura, or so he says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIzfXOfpFcA

He may be lying, but he did actually say it. He has kooky ideas, but some are not so kooky. I hope an ex-Navy Seal would not lie about the CIA coming to visit him.

Just because you all don't want to believe him or me, fine. Sorry to break this to you all, but America has lots of skeletons in the closet.

--------------

Mr. Goldberg, ahem, investors--Jews, gentiles, arabs, Indians, women, gays, blacks, hispanics, upper elites control our economy. They are oligarchs or so said my socialist friend, in the videos I fed to Diane. They decide who can run and who cannot. The media tends to do their bidding.

Thomas Ferguson's Investment Theory of Politics lays this all out.

Stop with the paranoia. Anti-semitism is not anywhere near as bad now as Islamophobia or gay bashing or immigrant bashing. A proud people can no longer claim victimhood, where their culture is much more secure than the other's I mention.

Enjoy the fruits Sir.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:10 pm

i like the celestial intervention agency

how 'bout the Church of the Illconcieved Attitudes
or the Incomprehensible Antics
the Impenetrable Addlebrains
Imbecilic Afflatus (word of the day)
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:17 pm

Mike, Cointelpro was a hoax too, right?

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:17 pm

markabaddon wrote:Personally, I prefer finding other organizations that use the acronym CIA that could be in control of the world. I like Barber's use of the Culinary Institute of America and am struggling to find a better one. Considered proposing the Cleveland Institute of Art, but was not sure it was sinister enough. Anyone have a better idea?
"dearest one" left link to a jesse ventura video; allegedly navy seals refer/ed to the CIA as Christians In Action. :lol:
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:46 pm

I personally do not dislike Gov Ventura. But in this video, he is showing several pronounced symptoms of schizo affect and or paranoia. Maybe not your best source here Frank.


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