THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FinderDoug
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:28 pm

I had a long screed here about history and what chases people off from these parts.

And then I said "fuggit." The people who inspired it won't listen to it anyway, and there's a lot of things worth burning cycles on; this isn't one of them. Tried a hiatus. Runs deeper than that.

Instead, I'm going off to see if I can find other gunslingers, because really, the world has moved on.

If you want to rap Ellison or MadCon, hit me up on other channels. Sadly, my carrier is dropping this one.

Good luck Steve - you're pretty much Cristina Raines in "The Sentinel" now.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:33 pm

FinderDoug wrote:I had a long screed here about history and what chases people off from these parts.

.


I must have missed that one, but I'm curious now. . .when was it?

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markabaddon
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:52 pm

For what it is worth, there are some people here with whom I have can have pleasant, even spirited conversations with, and others whom I chose to ignore. I have no interest in getting worked up with what some people, who are not even brave enough to reveal their real names here, have to say. Whatever they say goes in one ear and out the other. Those are the exception on this board rather than the rule and many of us have formed friendships outside of this enclave.

Doug, I hope you are not serious about leaving the Board as, even though you do not post frequently I do look forward to your contributions and think they add tremendous value. If you are "leaving this channel", I know I will see you at MadCon and will buy you the beer/wine that I owe both you and your lady

Mark
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:24 pm

I've started and stopped writing this post for a variety of reasons. Putting my thoughts into words has been an effort, but let me bottom line it.

I like each and every person who posts here. I could not do this job if I didn't. I can honestly say that there have been times when this was not true, but am glad this is no longer the case.

People are becoming disenchanted with the current tone and tenor on the Forums, and I can't blame them. So. As much as I sincerely enjoy coming to this place and engaging in the discussions, I have to state that losing voices like Doug's because of the unpleasantness is painful. He's not only a terrific voice of reason but a friend as well, so it hurts.

I have an obligation to Rick, and dotted-line to Harlan, to make this a better forum that will be lively and attract many people to our pages. They won't come if it's an unpleasant battleground. And it has come to a point where I need to make a choice. I can either keep trying to balance being both a poster and a moderator, or I can focus in on one or the other and hopefully do that one thing much better.

So unless someone wants to assume the mantle of moderator, I am forced to remove myself from the day to day fun and become a policeman. Not happy about it, but as noted I have an obligation to others.

We have challenging topics, which is very cool. We are an intelligent crowd, which is even better. We have diverse opnions, which is the best of the lot.

But effective immediately I am going to start publicly addressing the tone of the boards, and will have little patience for insults and snark, regardless of context or commentator.

Done and done.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:54 pm

Dougie and me haven't scrapped in a while, so it couldn't be me. If it is I'd wish Doug would address it in a pm, because, for the life of me, I don't know what it could be.

I like him bunches. Dougie, come back to us.

----------------

Mark, my name is Frank Church. Believe it or don't. I don't have time to deal with you and your sensitive nature.

I state my case from a personal moral perspective. If I didn't represent that perspective I would feel immoral and unclean with myself. Their are unseen voices that cry out for justice who don't get that and I try to voice that.

--------------

I heard that fourteen hundred of the stimulus went to each Montana resident, while much less went to people in major urban areas. Obama got elected by blacks but won't deal with their agenda.

Now he is for drilling. Great, next he will be on the side of torture and will invite Dick Cheney over for a burger and fries.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:01 pm

Moderator:

IF this is the way things will have to be, could you be kind enough to make a list of the general types of comments that will not be allowed?

My natural way of speaking is slightly sarcastic and snarky at times. I would not want to get into trouble. Any thing you can do to help would be greatly appericated.

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swp
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby swp » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:17 pm

ok, so where do the bad jokes that make you snort coffee out your nose fall into this new board order? Some have bordered on bad taste or obscenity, like my last one. how many were offended, but remained silent?

I agree with Lori.

more importantly, I wish you would work harder on finding/training your replacement so you can get back to posting.

a ham sandwich walks into a bar
and orders a bowl of chili and a beer
the bartender says, "we don't serve food here."

if anyone doesn't get that one, they shouldn't post here.

but that would be my standard, which is why I am not the moderator here.
swp

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David Loftus
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby David Loftus » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:21 pm

Jesus Mouse, people, grow up!

If you could just learn to ignore the other folks and remarks that rub you the wrong way, not only would your daily psychic condition be more pleasant, but sooner or later those irritants would dissipate of themselves. It's like panhandlers on the street; if people didn't keep giving them money, they wouldn't continue to hang out in your neighborhood (or, in my case, on my block).

I'd really hate to see Doug leave us. He may have been the first Webderlander I ever met in the flesh, lo these many years ago.

And Lori, I wouldn't worry about your style here. I haven't noticed you get snarky or nasty to anyone in particular except on rare occasions when he was being mean to someone else. Meaning, it was almost always deserved.

Say, there's a lovely line that's been making the rounds among my Facebook friends this week:

"Obama is NOT the dark-skinned, anti-war socialist who hands out free medical care. You're thinking of Jesus."
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:47 pm

I still don't believe anyone here watches cable news because what happens here is kittens in a basket in comparison.

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:20 pm

David, I've seldom seen any irritants dissipate themselves here, can't think of a single one. The old ones were all banned after having been an annoyance to some people for quite a while.
---
If someone were to ask me if I think this is now resolved properly, as I hoped it would be, I would have to say no.

Barber, we like you too, but your post, which contains laudable elements, is another "effective immediately" statement saying that in the future, from the moderator's point of view, those things will not be okay which were already not okay yesterday. At the very least, your previous "effective immediately" type of statement should have applied to Rob's recent utterings. Rick also once had an "effective immediately" posting. Your moderatorship was supposed to be effective from day one and was mainly intended to prevent any more personal attacks.

As I've said in the past, contrary to how you like to express it, your obligation, as long as you are moderator, is to us just as much as it is to Rick and Harlan. We gave you power in the expectation that you would use it. We don't have the power. We can't do anything without risking escalation.

You have addressed a big concern of mine, but not my specific complaints regarding Rob. I have not received an apology from Rob or seen anything else that would show a different side of him - on the contrary. I am tired of people getting away with insulting me. I have opinions about this place and have always done my part in improving it and helping you - that has also typically made me a target of people who prefer to tear things down rather than build them up. Rob's particular kind of anger has little rational basis, he just likes to disagree with me, and then he thinks of preposterous pseudo arguments later, or not. First he disagrees, then he pieces together a reason or two. You can see this on the previous pages and on the pages two weeks or so ago where I spoke about what Ezra calls Celebrity Death Count in the Pavilion. Rob was outraged. A week later he said I may have been right. Etc.

We should not encourage personaly animosities to be lived out here. We've looked away before - enough. Do we have principles or not? "Effective immedeately" sounds good but is really very sad, if it's true.
---
As for your decision to moderate only, Steve, you will find that once you address problems when they happen, in full moderator mode and with some assuredness, you will soon be a *less* busy moderator than you are now. Most problems can be tracked down to one or two people, the rest of us are ALREADY behaving well and will behave even better if those people behave.

I don't think we can permit that you renounce at the "day to day fun" out of obligations to Harlan and Rick. That would make all of us feel bad. Just do the job with foresight, don't keep being fooled twice.
---
Don't agree with Lori about the necessity of lists either. Barber is not literally a policeman, there will be an opportunity to explain it was a joke, before he fires (in self-defense, of course). But irony and sarcasm are common here and I don't really think it presents a problem for us to distinguish between good intentions and bad, regardless of tone. If anything, we could use more Snarky Lori.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:51 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:Moderator:

IF this is the way things will have to be, could you be kind enough to make a list of the general types of comments that will not be allowed?

My natural way of speaking is slightly sarcastic and snarky at times. I would not want to get into trouble. Any thing you can do to help would be greatly appericated.



This is a good start of an example of sarcasm. Sarcasm is fine. Calling me an ass, for instance, would not be.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:53 pm

Halleluh, brother Loftus. Halleluh.

David Loftus wrote:Jesus Mouse, people, grow up!

If you could just learn to ignore the other folks and remarks that rub you the wrong way, not only would your daily psychic condition be more pleasant, but sooner or later those irritants would dissipate of themselves. It's like panhandlers on the street; if people didn't keep giving them money, they wouldn't continue to hang out in your neighborhood (or, in my case, on my block).

I'd really hate to see Doug leave us. He may have been the first Webderlander I ever met in the flesh, lo these many years ago.

And Lori, I wouldn't worry about your style here. I haven't noticed you get snarky or nasty to anyone in particular except on rare occasions when he was being mean to someone else. Meaning, it was almost always deserved.

Say, there's a lovely line that's been making the rounds among my Facebook friends this week:

"Obama is NOT the dark-skinned, anti-war socialist who hands out free medical care. You're thinking of Jesus."
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:04 pm

Alright...there won't be any more put-downs!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:09 pm

Jan wrote:Barber, we like you too, but your post, which contains laudable elements, is another "effective immediately" statement saying that in the future, from the moderator's point of view, those things will not be okay which were already not okay yesterday. At the very least, your previous "effective immediately" type of statement should have applied to Rob's recent utterings. Rick also once had an "effective immediately" posting. Your moderatorship was supposed to be effective from day one and was mainly intended to prevent any more personal attacks.


As I recall, I was a great deal more directly involved at first, and most people here objected strenuously that I was going too far. I backed off and this has sustained us for the last three years. For the most part.

Jan wrote:As I've said in the past, contrary to how you like to express it, your obligation, as long as you are moderator, is to us just as much as it is to Rick and Harlan. We gave you power in the expectation that you would use it. We don't have the power. We can't do anything without risking escalation.


Let's make this point clear: No one here "gave" me anything. As I remember I was essentially drafted, with the very real option of the Forums being closed if someone, and I was nominated by several of you with no campaigning on my own part, did not step up.

Jan wrote: I have not received an apology from Rob or seen anything else that would show a different side of him - on the contrary.


Jan, I am not responsible for getting you an apology. I can, and did, recommend that he give you one, but I am not going to strongarm someone by threatening them with expulsion if they don't apologize. We're all adults, and conflicts like this should be resolved without running to someone else for resolution. I'm here to respond reactively to bad demeanor, or to handle a spam attack, or to make sure that a certain amount of decorum is observed. But I'm not a parent who can make someone apologize if they do not see fit.

If they continue the insults or whatever, yeah. Then I can and will act. I don't have a scorecard.

Jan wrote:As for your decision to moderate only, Steve, you will find that once you address problems when they happen, in full moderator mode and with some assuredness, you will soon be a *less* busy moderator than you are now.


I'm not terribly busy as a moderator. We've actually had a fairly long run of solid debate without unruly behavior. Almost a month.

Jan, you're assuming that I'm not "addressing problems in full moderator mode with some assuredness" out of your view. Given your concerns, they may or may not be handled in the open. It depends on the nature of the offense and the deliberation with which it was done. In a major point, you've actually been far less "victimized" than several other people here who were satisfied with my response.

Jan wrote:I don't think we can permit that you renounce at the "day to day fun" out of obligations to Harlan and Rick. That would make all of us feel bad. Just do the job with foresight, don't keep being fooled twice.


Again, you presume that you have some control over this and you don't. The only "permission" I need is from Rick.

A couple of months ago I seriously considered dropping the role as Mod because of the bull that was going on. It happens. But what I need to do is read the comments wihtout an eye for my own response, and strictly for tone and content. Hard to do both simultaneously. It is what it is. I'll make personal remarks on my Webderlanders page.


Perry - Jokes in bad taste are always welcome unless they insult or demean someone here. Coffee through the nose are usually the best ones...
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:10 pm

robochrist wrote:Alright...there won't be any more put-downs!



No. There won't be.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.


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