THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:58 pm

America sure is in a hurry for Egypt to have elections. Their whole system is corrupt, you have to fix that before you can have meaningful elections.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Frank

Your grasp of the obvious is amazing. Now can you come up with a viable solution?

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markabaddon
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:21 pm

Lori has the situation assessed correctly. Again, my friend is not, and has never been anti-semitic towards me. In fact, he has been extremely supportive during times when I really needed him. The problem arises when he defends the use of a phrase that was created to incite violence against my people and feels it is legally justified to exclude me people from businesses. As I said in another conversation with Barber, once you start denying some freedoms to a segment of the population like that, others such as the right to vote, are likely to follow
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:42 pm

"The problem arises when he defends the use of a phrase that was created to incite violence against my people and feels it is legally justified to exclude me people from businesses."

That IS bad!

If you made this clear in an earlier post I missed it!

I was going to invoke the Fonda/Stewart analogy again until I saw THIS.

Whole different game. I would have told this guy to fuck off. No "friend" could be so detached and insensitive and still be called a "friend". This type of individual is a hopelessly brainwashed/braindead asshole drone, who only adds to the collective tribe of ignorant provocateurs.

You MUST have OTHER friends. BETTER friends, hopefully. Focus on THEM.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:49 pm

FrankChurch wrote:America sure is in a hurry for Egypt to have elections. Their whole system is corrupt, you have to fix that before you can have meaningful elections.


Understood -- but isn't the average anti-government Egyptian protestor on the street also for elections as soon as possible???

As Lori notes, perhaps a bit sardonically, the problem is that of the proverbial chicken or egg: How do you get clean elections if they are being run by the thugs-in-charge? But how do you oust the thugs democratically if you cannot have clean elections?

The solution may be found in places such as (the former) Czechoslovakia, Georgia and Ukraine, where the handover of power from totalitarian thugs was peaceably accomplished with minimal bloodshed or angst. (Following events may not have been quite so gentle, but the actual revolutions themselves were nonviolent.)




(Scary and ugly stuff going on over there. I pray for a return to a peaceful revolution.)
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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:49 pm

Better that they have citizens councils--anarchy in the middle east. A man can dream.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:28 pm

Thom Hartmann made a very good point the other day. What if Egypt had access to guns the way we do? Tahrir square would be a bloodbath.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:11 pm

Ideologues often end up defending absurd positons, because to not do so would be to admit exceptions to a non-believer. It would lay one open to the posibility that one's ideology is not water tight, not foolproof, not infallible, and, quite possibly, not the answer to absolutely everything, and that is the one thing the faithfull can never ever do.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:31 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Thom Hartmann made a very good point the other day. What if Egypt had access to guns the way we do? Tahrir square would be a bloodbath.


That's not necessarily true Frank. Last month I was watching Rachel Maddow, and she was interviewing Michael Moore about the shooting in Az.

According to the research Moore did for Bowling for Colombine, Canada has twice as many guns as the US do, and they have less than half the killing we do. Prehaps it's because of how strict they are about who can get guns. For instance, if you ever had a wife, or are currently married, you have to bring in signed statements from them stating that they do not fear you killing them if you get one. And that's on top 3 personal references one of which needs to be from a qualified mental health provider stating that you are of stable mental condition.

We have no Idea what kind of gun control Egypt would have if any, so making gross assumptions is all we can do.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:28 pm

Well, when Canada becomes a dictatorship and there is a revolution and there is a violent crackdown, then we can talk.

Egypt has strict gun control for obvious reasons. The people were using sticks and rocks, ya know.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:49 pm

This is true Frank, and they were hired by if not Mubarak himself, the Secret police for sure. Who really cannot afford having armed people dealing with things. They are trying to make it look like there is support for Mubarak after all.

So that may be gun control, but not the kind I'm thinking of.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:38 pm

I am truly awed by the control on the military's side. But, as noted, their patience may be wearing thin -- and their interests may not coincide with those of the protestors.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/201125103116509885.html

Meanwhile, the Obama Administration makes its position clear.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/02/2011251100455802.html
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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:09 pm

We also learned how confident Canadian civilians are about their homes. They don't even lock their doors half the time they go out!

However, my notion is, and here I am speaking with loose facts, I don't think Canada is one helluva an exception; I think MOST of the modern industrial countries are relieved of death stats by guns. WE are unique; The insanity of thinking it's ok for a civilian to walk attend a political gathering armed with a gun is unique and warped!

An interesting side note about the history of gun control, I got into a lot of "myth versus fact" about the Old West, and one of the realities is that towns and saloons DID have gun control! Most could NOT just walk in wearing a gun! They were required to leave it with whomever and pick it up when they head out! Stand-offs like we see in movies and tv were infrequent if not nearly impossible. That's the effect of gun control.

I'd wager the 100 million yokels of this country don't know that.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:23 pm

Has anybody thought that maybe we're just meaner and crazier than everybody else?

After all our country began with a violent revolution. It expanded by means of a near genocidal war against the native population. It paused in this expansion to conduct a bloody civil war that killed damn near three quarters of a million people. We've fought a war just about every decade since we were founded. We have troops on every continent except Antartica and have one of the highest crime rates in the world despite having more people in prison than the Soviet Union at it's worst.

Whaddya think? :( :o :shock:
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:34 pm

..."meaner and crazier"...as the Puritans themselves proved to be...as Columbus quite LITERALLY proved to be...

It is ABSOLUTELY in our seeds! If we only found the wisdom as a people to acknowledge it and OUTGROW it!

Therein lies my contempt for our population.


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