THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:13 pm

Re the Salman Rushdie thing.

The really disheartening thing then and now are all the western voices coming out with something like, weeeelllll killing him is probably going just a little but too far but you know Mr Rushdie it's all really YOUR fault. Even western intellectuals! What did Rushdie do? HE WROTE A FUCKING BOOK! What did these nabobs now do? They made a movie!

I think if all these goobers would go over to the Middle East and make a list of the all the grievances and resentments these people have they would find that number one on the list is OUR EXISTENCE. We cannot appease them or satisfy them. They're the ones living in the 12th century. They're the ones who are intolerant. They're the ones who cannot live peaceably with other points of view.

And we're supposed to worry about hurting their feelings? :lol:
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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:00 pm

Wellll...If someone dumps a gallon of gasoline on some glowing embers, they shouldn't be too surprised when it erupts in a big fireball. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been allowed to make the film. People have the right to express themselves, even if that expression is considered vile. Still,the protests were not what killed Stevens and the others in Libya. This looks like a planned, premeditated attack that used the protest as a cover. Protesters usually don't bring along RPG's and mortars.

There were also Libyans that helped to fend off the attackers and saved some of the embassy employees. The attackers were either taking revenge for Quaddaffi or another leading figure (I can't remember the fellow's name -- he may have been Al Queda :oops: ).

The attack was an expression of 12th century barbarism. The protests, although an overreaction, were not.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:56 pm

Chuck, I'll take you a step further.

People can express themselves. But, and this is big, they must bear the responsibility for their expression. Nothing "anonymous". The government can not persecute the speaker, but society can.

You create and promote this kind of film, go ahead. But I'll be damned if I let you sit aside and deny responsibility for your comments. The producer, director , actors, writer and promoters ought to be brought forward into full daylight and understand their own responsibility. They are ultimately just as culpable as the murderers themselves.

Free speech is the First and most important Amendment. But to exercise it, you must own your words. There are societal consequences even if the government cannot silence you. Hiding, like a coward, behind the First Amendment and claiming anonymity is the mark of a fool who should be shown, publicly, for what they are.

The First Amendment gives us the right to speak our minds, not cower behind it for lack of conviction in our words.
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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:46 am

Ok but...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/se ... ning-islam

Apparently someone even finds scholarly critical examinations of the origins of Islam "offensive".

How far are we prepared to go simply not to offend?
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:07 am

Even scholarly criticism of Islam can have a hint of bigotry. Look at how hands off we are when dealing with Mitt's Mormonism?

Islam is easy to bash because we can tie them to the crazies--this makes us feel better about our own preconceived bigotries. When you look at the whole of terrorism, Islamic terror tends to pale. There are a billion muslims and only a few thousand do real violence. Democracy tends to soften.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:30 am

FrankChurch wrote:Even scholarly criticism of Islam can have a hint of bigotry. Look at how hands off we are when dealing with Mitt's Mormonism?


That's because here, according to our traditions, religion should make no difference to our political choices. Of course we all know that's nonsense, but at least we codified the principle that everyone is entitled to their own brand of whacko.

What dismays me about Mormonism (and Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science) is that they are recent enough that the documentary trail of their origins is complete and clear. They are all bullshit cults that simply garnered a following. Joe Smith was a charlatan of the first water and L.Ron Hubbard was a sideshow trickster out to make money. That people can see this for themselves and still buy this nonsense shows me that there really is no basis for crediting any religion with the kind of worth for which people die and kill and surrender their children.

But we also embrace scholarly examination of all those religions, which is how we know their origins and can make up our own minds. The hermetic seals Islam places around itself robs everyone of the chance to come to their own conclusions. But this is also nothing new---don't forget that at one time is was the death penalty for translating the bible into a vernacular so lay people could read it themselves.

Just what are all these prelates so scared of?

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:20 pm

Apparently someone even finds scholarly critical examinations of the origins of Islam "offensive".

How far are we prepared to go simply not to offend?


If the examination of Islam is scholarly, then I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with someone making a film or whatever piece that is truly bigoted. The response I think works best in that case, is one of scorn and ridicule. It can work wonders. The protests that have come up over either an alleged piece of shit like the anti-Islam film, or over a film like The Last Temptation shows a hyper-sensitivity that makes me question just how strong their faith really is. After all, who can insult God? It's like an ant calling a human a poopie-head. A complete lack of perspective.

Chuck
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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:54 am

Respect?

http://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpre ... aewvxm.jpg

Want to let the parents of this child make the call as to which films should be made or suppressed?

And this photograph is not from Benghazi or Cairo. It's from Sydney, Australia.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:03 am

Notice where they're not rioting? Yea, here. And they say we don't have moderate muslims.

I at least pray it doesn't happen here. I do expect a major violent episode in Israel.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:13 pm

Want to let the parents of this child make the call as to which films should be made or suppressed?


Not at all. But if you're going to get in people's faces, you need to know what you're getting into.

Besides, it really looks like the film was more of an excuse than a cause of the rioting.

I mean, where were they when Southpark portrayed Mohammed as a talking bear?

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:44 am

Never mind the above post. I was eating some strange mushrooms when I posted it. I thought we could delete posts around here. What happened.

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Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:26 am

Ezra Lb. wrote:Respect?

http://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpre ... aewvxm.jpg

Want to let the parents of this child make the call as to which films should be made or suppressed?


This is, presumably, one of the reasons for "public" education. Kids should go to a place where they get exposed to all the stuff their close-minded, ignorant, uneducated, bigoted parents won't allow at home. This is one of the things teachers have been complaining about since the late Sixties, the erosion of support so they can tell Mr or Mrs Blowhard to kiss off when they complain about "what are you teaching my kid?"

(Yes, I can see the reverse of this just as well, where propaganda is being doled out and you don't want your kid brainwashed. But if a parent is savvy enough to recognize the propaganda from actual learning, then he or she can counter it at home, and that's not the parent we're talking about.)

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:40 pm

Chuck: If the examination of Islam is scholarly, then I have no problem with it. I also have no problem with someone making a film or whatever piece that is truly bigoted. The response I think works best in that case, is one of scorn and ridicule. It can work wonders. The protests that have come up over either an alleged piece of shit like the anti-Islam film, or over a film like The Last Temptation shows a hyper-sensitivity that makes me question just how strong their faith really is. After all, who can insult God? It's like an ant calling a human a poopie-head. A complete lack of perspective.
[/quote]

I think both sides - this filmmaker who knew the degree of extant Muslim fanatacism and the predictable lashback - AND the silly insolubility of the religion itself, pervasive among poorly educated populations generationally manipulated by power barons - are goddam stupid as hell! Hopelessly fucking dumb. Now, in an already enflamed region, we have new fuel for potential terrorist rebounds.

The human race: it is consistently barbaric, arrogant, and self-destructive.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:31 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Notice where they're not rioting? Yea, here. And they say we don't have moderate muslims.



That's cause they're not the ones in charge. If they made the rules, there'd be alot less heads on shoulders. . .

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:34 pm

Their economies are a mess, they are disgruntled from lack of freedom and they are lashing out. Notice how they hit symbols of our disgusting cultural dreck, KFC and Hardees. They understand that we are an empire of symbols, not much else.

People in that part of the world are very savvy politics wise, trust me. They don't forget. They certainly don't forget the dictators we foisted on them.


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