THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:06 am

Oh, and just to add a bit of substance to my question:

http://marktiedemann.com/wordpress/?p=1286

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:13 am

Mark Tiedemann wrote:http://marktiedemann.com/wordpress/?p=1524

Steve, I may be doing a bit of what you do (doubtless at much lower level). Previews.


Love the photo, Mark. Just terrific. Looking forward to reading about the trip!!

("Share the Adventure!")
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:26 am

Like Mark, I cannot fathom the insistence that Obama hasn't accomplished anything. (Don't worry, I'm not going to line them all up and trot them out). I'm afraid too many Americans have become impatient with what are historic events. Romney is willing to tell everyone he has a magic wand which he will wave and solve the problems, when a simple look at the state of the world economy and the American challenges make that a hollow promise. Worse, he release specifics on what he WOULD do, which is highly suspect. I don't appreciate being told "trust me" by someone who hasn't earned the trust.

What Obama has accomplished is keeping the economy from going completely off the rails -- a distinct possibility when he took office. We had a bad recession, and the recovery hasn't been terribly strong. But for the most part, pundits and the like ignore completely the factors involved in such a recovery and make the broad assumption that because things are not glorious then it's time for a change. Economic realities be damned, he should have fixed things by now. The American government is not, and should never be, a business. Hiring a businessman to run public administration is a based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of what government is, and what it is supposed to do.

Imagine if you are in a bad car accident, and wake to find yourself in intensive care. Several other people are badly injured themselves. You were a bit tipsy when you took the wheel and are largely responsible for your own injuries. Your legs are shattered, but the doctors insist that with intensive therapy your recovery will be slow and painful, but could be complete in a few years. Your family and friends all argue that it's the doctors' fault you're in the hospital, and each time they doctor tries to put a plan in place, your friends and family refuse to cooperate. They offer no real alternative, they simply stand in the way of the doctors who are trying to fix your problems.

What sense, then does it make for you to blame your doctors for your own failure to take the necessary steps? Because of your injuries, your income is down though you still have obligations to pay. Your friends and family keep arguing over the bill, instead of helping you recover from your injuries so that you can earn enough money to pay things down. They argue so strongly, in fact, that your credit rating is damaged (which they attribute to the doctors), and you're in danger of default.

No. I don't get the mindset of the extreme Republicans, who have done virtually nothing in the last four years and yet want to insist it's everyone else's fault.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:56 pm

The trouble with the Dems is that they have to service corporate America. They do have differing people that they must appeal to, but they really have to entice corporations, who tend to run the world.

There are many reliable ways to get down to zero unemployment, higher wages, clean environment, less corruption, but the weak dems will not do it, because they do not want to take the hit from their corporate backers.

Norway, Denmark, Sweden, all have huge taxes, but clean streets, reliable social services, great health care and also lots of prosperity. Even their conservatives go for it.

We could do it but these parties are bought.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:19 pm

FrankChurch wrote:The trouble with the Dems is that they have to service corporate America. They do have differing people that they must appeal to, but they really have to entice corporations, who tend to run the world.

There are many reliable ways to get down to zero unemployment, higher wages, clean environment, less corruption, but the weak dems will not do it, because they do not want to take the hit from their corporate backers.

Norway, Denmark, Sweden, all have huge taxes, but clean streets, reliable social services, great health care and also lots of prosperity. Even their conservatives go for it.

We could do it but these parties are bought.


Frank

Just so ya know. At any given time, 1/3 of the nation's population is too young to work, and 1/3 is too old to work. So with that said you'll never get to zero unemployment.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:25 am

Four percent unemployment is considered full employment.

You raise the minimum wage to 12 bucks and you will see millions of new jobs just on that.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:58 pm

Per Mark's post, the credo I seem to hear from Tony Rabig and "conservatives" in general is something like, "ya got the right kinda Republican and ya get the right kind of outcome. Bush was not a real "conservative". We need the right kinda conservative."

What eludes me - no, what ALARMS me - NO! NO! What FRUSTRATES me! - is the discounting of policy. Instead of reviewing the track record of economic policies ("trickle-down" versus "demand-side economics" for example) and the respective outcomes, what protocol has shown to advantage whom MOST historically, "they" (i.e., "conservatives in denial"), seem to steer merely toward what a candidate "has to say", or his "likability". Whatever. Whatever this contingent is looking for, they are in denial.

Regardless of the candidate, the policies he represents come first. John Kerry, for instance, is no leader, but the policies he'd have implemented as president would have benefitted the middle class by-and-large, not the minute handful of modern-day Carnegies and Rockefellers.

The aforementioned also never seems to look at what "their" candidates have done to the media machine and the Supreme Court. Does anyone ever, EVER remember what the Supreme Court becomes through their elected officials? The Reagan era begat a new breed of political cronyism that has grown and attached itself to our institutions in dire ways. Money controls every aspect of our system now. We've seen the results. To my dismay, this doesn't seem to rattle them at all!

This affirms for me that conservatives bury their head in the sand religiously. No matter the facts history has to show, they are in denial. They are unreachable. You guys already know what word I tend to use to characterize this mindset. Starts with S and ends with a big D.

I wish Tony Rabig were willing to address these questions.

The inference that anything resembling Romney is "better than what we have" is a big high for a new low!

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:31 pm

Why can't people just see through Mittens? He's about as obvious as the dude who takes your house.

Maher sizes it up right:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/2 ... 30187.html

There's also the new AP article that says that people are more racist now than in 2008. A majority of white Americans actually think blacks are inferior.

I need to put my head down.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Tony Rabig » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:35 pm

I really should know better. In an idle moment, give a sorta-kinda-but-not-entirely facetious answer to Frank's question; then make the mistake of responding to Rob's suggestion that maybe I'm so well off that I don't give a damn if the country collapses (which I am not now, never have been, and never will be).

And for those sins, exactly how much time should I now spend justifying myself? Pointless time at that, since it's probably safe to say that by now we all know how we're going to vote and nothing said here will change it.

Ain't gonna go there. I will say only that I formed my opinion of Barack Obama during the 2008 campaign, it wasn't favorable, and I've seen nothing since then to make me change my view.

If you think he's the best man for the job, fine -- vote for him. I don't think he is, so I'm voting for the other guy. If you don't get how I can vote for Romney, rest assured that I don't get how someone can vote for Obama. We don't owe each other any explanations.

Bests to all,
--tr

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:00 pm

Tony, that's not rational. We do rational here. What about the 47 percent video? Romney hates 47 percent of America--he hates you!

According to mainstream economists democrats always do better on the economy. The book, the New, New Deal outlines how the stimulus worked.

Matt Taibbi outlines just how evil Bain Capital was. He didn't create jobs, he crushed them.

He wanted Detroit to go bankrupt?

He supports Richard Mourdock.

Colin Powell likes O.

The Koch Brothers expect a payback from Mittens if he wins. They want to poison the aquifer of 8 states!

Mittens will end Social Security, Medicare, cut foodstamps. I may soon enroll. You would be starving me.

Tony, noooooooooooooooooo

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:47 pm

Like I said: Policy...historical track-records...religious-like denial.

It's evident that the other "47%" - that which Tony speaks for - needs to go another round with Republican policies and finish off what's left of our Democracy; they need to be dragged through a Katrina of their own before they get it!

Like the rest of that contingent, Tony is unreachable.

A sad thing that prevails in this country.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby DanielBarron » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:01 pm

There's also the new AP article that says that people are more racist now than in 2008. A majority of white Americans actually think blacks are inferior. "

Not surprising given the vile rhetoric spewed by some on the extreme right.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/2 ... 05989.html

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:16 pm

I suspect that JUST as MANY people now are as racist as they were in 2008. They are merely more "vocal" now; "coming out of the closet", if you will. I'm convinced the racist heart in America has been a fixed proportion. People who were never racist don't suddenly decide to BECOME racist. Generally isn't a tendency, anyway. I don't believe it is. It's a racist country, let's not deny it.

I should add, I think the AP is questionable in what it reports and HOW it reports. I've been glancing at their items a lot over the last year, noticing, or at least interpreting, a hard Right slant in tone and emphasis. For example, over the last month or more, a lot more Romney promo, framed in ways to make Obama look like a fading tide. I could almost believe (dunno why I say "almost") the AP posters are paid under the table by the Super PAC.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:42 am


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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:04 pm

All white people have racialist issues, no matter what we say. I blame a small bit of it on black behavior, but that's no excuse. Social pathology is a complex issue.

If Obama wins we all better be very pro-black and hispanic. They are the bellwether.

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Lori, your Giants did well, but could you please break off a piece for some other team next year? lol


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