Pavilion Digest: July 2009

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Adam-Troy
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John Zeock --

Postby Adam-Troy » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:01 am

Name: Adam-Troy Castro
Source: unca20091009.htm
I have a copy of the 1979 QUATERMASS with John Mills on my shelf. Reviewed it for scifiweekly, and remember it well. There are some resonances and similarities. But I don't see TORCHWOOD: CHILDREN OF EARTH guilty of more than cosmetic similarities. Ending and all, they are quite different.

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Jim Davis
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Postby Jim Davis » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:50 am

Name: Jim Davis
Source: unca20091007.htm
"Get the point, Jim?"

Um, that what you're talking about didn't happen, and you're only illustrating how no one got their facts straight here? (If there's another point I'm supposed to get, please elucidate.)

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Jim Davis
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Postby Jim Davis » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:50 am

Name: Jim Davis
Source: unca20091009.htm
"Get the point, Jim?"

Um, that what you're talking about didn't happen, and you're only illustrating how no one got their facts straight here? (If there's another point I'm supposed to get, please elucidate.)

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Postby Moderator » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:58 am

Name: Steve Barber
Source: unca20091007.htm

Jim -

I am sad to see that, once again, you only appear when there's an opportunity to dump on this place.

"you're only illustrating how no one got their facts straight here?"

This is, of course, utterly ridiculous on the face of it. If you had taken the time to read some of the gives and takes at Ms. Tempest's site you would be appalled at some of the namecalling and other misunderstandings. I take no stand on an issue between Harlan and Ms. Tempest, but of the assorted "fannage" on both sites, her "followers" have demonstrated far more venom than we've seen here.

So.

I have asked you a number of times in the Forum and never gotten a response, so will now ask "in public": If we disgust you so much, why do you even bother? You're certainly not turning heads here, and insistance that yours is the only rational view -- and the corresponding "we're just a bunch of toadies" (not an exact quote I grant, but very near the spirit of what you post) -- why do you bother?

I'm genuinely curious as to why a reasonably sane person would constantly feel it's their obligation to only appear when it's time to shit on us.

Really, Jim. It's not worth your time. You make valid points, but the way they are couched, and your sole motivation seems to be a jerk by pointing out the flaws in others.

"A source which is solely a negative one soon defeats its own purpose."



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Postby Moderator » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:58 am

Name: Steve Barber
Source: unca20091009.htm

Jim -

I am sad to see that, once again, you only appear when there's an opportunity to dump on this place.

"you're only illustrating how no one got their facts straight here?"

This is, of course, utterly ridiculous on the face of it. If you had taken the time to read some of the gives and takes at Ms. Tempest's site you would be appalled at some of the namecalling and other misunderstandings. I take no stand on an issue between Harlan and Ms. Tempest, but of the assorted "fannage" on both sites, her "followers" have demonstrated far more venom than we've seen here.

So.

I have asked you a number of times in the Forum and never gotten a response, so will now ask "in public": If we disgust you so much, why do you even bother? You're certainly not turning heads here, and insistance that yours is the only rational view -- and the corresponding "we're just a bunch of toadies" (not an exact quote I grant, but very near the spirit of what you post) -- why do you bother?

I'm genuinely curious as to why a reasonably sane person would constantly feel it's their obligation to only appear when it's time to shit on us.

Really, Jim. It's not worth your time. You make valid points, but the way they are couched, and your sole motivation seems to be a jerk by pointing out the flaws in others.

"A source which is solely a negative one soon defeats its own purpose."



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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:33 am

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20091007.htm
Barber's right, I went to that forum and the comments section is rife with bile. I won't mention what they say, so as not to anger Harlan, but it is some bad stuff.

Let Tempest decide what she will accept.

-----------

I am the black sheep of the forums, so I understand how one can be misunderstood.



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FrankChurch
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Postby FrankChurch » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:33 am

Name: Frank Church
Source: unca20091009.htm
Barber's right, I went to that forum and the comments section is rife with bile. I won't mention what they say, so as not to anger Harlan, but it is some bad stuff.

Let Tempest decide what she will accept.

-----------

I am the black sheep of the forums, so I understand how one can be misunderstood.



john zeock
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:30 pm

ATC

Postby john zeock » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:52 am

Name: john zeock
Source: unca20091007.htm
Dear ATC, let me take this oppurtunity to tell you how much I enjoy your work and that your postings here show a real mensch . Unfortunately I can't properly respond to your post without flooding this place with spoilers. I see two major plot points; the resolution; the relationship of two characters and their place in that resolution; the general ambience at the climax and some minor points. I still love Davies, the series and this recent week. But I loved The Terminator when I first saw it; knew how much it requistioned from elsewhere and COE has much more.

john zeock
Posts: 167
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ATC

Postby john zeock » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:52 am

Name: john zeock
Source: unca20091009.htm
Dear ATC, let me take this oppurtunity to tell you how much I enjoy your work and that your postings here show a real mensch . Unfortunately I can't properly respond to your post without flooding this place with spoilers. I see two major plot points; the resolution; the relationship of two characters and their place in that resolution; the general ambience at the climax and some minor points. I still love Davies, the series and this recent week. But I loved The Terminator when I first saw it; knew how much it requistioned from elsewhere and COE has much more.

c. cooper

on sidestepping teapot turmoil

Postby c. cooper » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:47 am

Name: c. cooper
Source: unca20091007.htm
Dear Harlan:

Late to the tempestuous party I know, but I only wish to add a probably too obvious coda to what Morales has said because it hurts me to see you troubled by rumors or imprecise intelligence gathered by those who may or may not always have your best interests at heart. It's best for everyone's blood pressure not to rush to believe or act upon second-hand news.

As Frank Zappa once said: facetiousness never translates well in print. The blogosphere, like the adolescent diaries blogs are patterned on, is essentially an ego minefield, intentionally full of risky opinion, self-promotion and wild surmise. The appeal of blogs to many "post-privacy" advocates, is that bloggers dare to make their diaries public, letting the frag fall where it may even if it explodes "entertainingly" in the author's own face. Even in prudent hands, blogs tend to become a netless, authorial high-wire act, wherein onlookers and participating commentators often root for a messy accident. All the more reason to ignore most of it -- if such doesn't entertain you -- and to take the rest of it with a huge grain of salt.


c. cooper

on sidestepping teapot turmoil

Postby c. cooper » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:47 am

Name: c. cooper
Source: unca20091009.htm
Dear Harlan:

Late to the tempestuous party I know, but I only wish to add a probably too obvious coda to what Morales has said because it hurts me to see you troubled by rumors or imprecise intelligence gathered by those who may or may not always have your best interests at heart. It's best for everyone's blood pressure not to rush to believe or act upon second-hand news.

As Frank Zappa once said: facetiousness never translates well in print. The blogosphere, like the adolescent diaries blogs are patterned on, is essentially an ego minefield, intentionally full of risky opinion, self-promotion and wild surmise. The appeal of blogs to many "post-privacy" advocates, is that bloggers dare to make their diaries public, letting the frag fall where it may even if it explodes "entertainingly" in the author's own face. Even in prudent hands, blogs tend to become a netless, authorial high-wire act, wherein onlookers and participating commentators often root for a messy accident. All the more reason to ignore most of it -- if such doesn't entertain you -- and to take the rest of it with a huge grain of salt.


Le

Ellison on the radio

Postby Le » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:18 am

Name: Le
Source: unca20091007.htm
I missed this Studio 360 radio interview when it was broadcast last year. It's almost an hour long! In it, he reads excerpts from "Paladin of the Lost Hour" and "Jeffty is Five." It's hilarious how he has that "brain fart" while trying to explain the background for "Paladin." When Mrs. Ellison told him they only had $900 in the bank, he immediately went on to make $32,000 in three days and find out how he made $14,000 in one day. I post the link to the interview in case there are others here who also missed it when it first aired:

http://tinyurl.com/lbahmk



Le

Ellison on the radio

Postby Le » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:18 am

Name: Le
Source: unca20091009.htm
I missed this Studio 360 radio interview when it was broadcast last year. It's almost an hour long! In it, he reads excerpts from "Paladin of the Lost Hour" and "Jeffty is Five." It's hilarious how he has that "brain fart" while trying to explain the background for "Paladin." When Mrs. Ellison told him they only had $900 in the bank, he immediately went on to make $32,000 in three days and find out how he made $14,000 in one day. I post the link to the interview in case there are others here who also missed it when it first aired:

http://tinyurl.com/lbahmk



BrianSiano
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Postby BrianSiano » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:24 am

Name: Brian Siano
Source: unca20091007.htm
I really ought to add my comments sooner than I'd like.

Y'see, I had a look at the blog in question after Harlan posted the name, and found that their discussion of ROF didn't really match what was written here. I didn't care for a lot of _their_ discussion-- SF fans can be a pretty childish lot-- but it wasn't about what Harlan had reported.

I figured, maybe Harlan had been given info that I wasn't seeing. Or-- which seems to be the case-- prior experience wth childish SF fans encouraged him to get angrier than what was warranted in this case. I'll come back to this point in a moment.

For now, Harlan has apologized to Bradford, and Bradford's responses have been pretty intelligent and understanding, and as far as I'm concerned, this is between them and I'm certain they'll work things out.

Now, back to that bnut about prior experience making us madder. We _all_ fall victim to it at some point or another. We hear some snippet of news, and since we _expect_ certain things to be the case, we get angry. I can think of examples from the last Presidential campaign where candidates were reported to have said or done something egregious or stupid, the blog 'community' gets all worked up about how this just _shows_ how awful _those_ people are... and then the facts and corrections get circulated and most people put it behind them.

In this case, we hear about a complaint about a bare breast on an SF magazine, and we figure it's got to be a Fundamentalist bluenose fundraising campaign, or some "antisex feminist" out of Dworkinesque mythology, and we get worked up about _that_. (I once did an article about the Political Correctness hysteria, and found that a lot of the early tales were like this.) No one's immune. I'm not. Harlan isn't. Bradford isn't.

The bile we're seeing over at Bradford's site is a good example of this. Frankly, while Bradford seems pretty interesting, her audience ain't always the _creme de la crop_. The chatter about the ROF covers was like high school girl-yabber at best.

And blogs are prone to a particular kind of shitty behavior. Someone posts a complaint-- candidate cracks wise about Obama, husband watches too much porn, teacher's too critical about the short story in the workshop. Hordes of others wade in with 'sympathetic' notes of 'support' that do little but get others worked up the outrage, real or imagined, and in some cases, working up a severe hate for particular individuals. And moralists who feel the need to assert their moral superiority, by posing as the more outraged, get to strut about.

That's pretty much what turned up there once Harlan posted his complaint about Bradford; lots of fanchildren adding their worthless observations that "He's always been an asshole" and "I've never read his stories" and "he's just old and icky" and, well, you know the rest. It's the herd behavior of 'independent' minds, following the script. And I'm sure they're all insisting that Bradford reject the apology and hold a grudge against bad ol'Harlan.

I'm sure they've already contributed this to Wikipedia, making sure that this moral outrage does not go undocumented... the people who've never read an Ellison story, regard his civil rights work as ancient history, and know nothing of his career in general. (Even sadder, these are people who think that Internet skills are a minimum requirement for someone to be taken seriously. So much for, say, the late Leszec Kolakowski.)

So, like I said: The only issue here is between Bradford and Harlan, and they seem to be reaching for a rapproachment. I hope they work it out. _EVERYTHING_ beyond this is just fans having a wank.









BrianSiano
Posts: 386
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 3:42 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

Postby BrianSiano » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:24 am

Name: Brian Siano
Source: unca20091009.htm
I really ought to add my comments sooner than I'd like.

Y'see, I had a look at the blog in question after Harlan posted the name, and found that their discussion of ROF didn't really match what was written here. I didn't care for a lot of _their_ discussion-- SF fans can be a pretty childish lot-- but it wasn't about what Harlan had reported.

I figured, maybe Harlan had been given info that I wasn't seeing. Or-- which seems to be the case-- prior experience wth childish SF fans encouraged him to get angrier than what was warranted in this case. I'll come back to this point in a moment.

For now, Harlan has apologized to Bradford, and Bradford's responses have been pretty intelligent and understanding, and as far as I'm concerned, this is between them and I'm certain they'll work things out.

Now, back to that bnut about prior experience making us madder. We _all_ fall victim to it at some point or another. We hear some snippet of news, and since we _expect_ certain things to be the case, we get angry. I can think of examples from the last Presidential campaign where candidates were reported to have said or done something egregious or stupid, the blog 'community' gets all worked up about how this just _shows_ how awful _those_ people are... and then the facts and corrections get circulated and most people put it behind them.

In this case, we hear about a complaint about a bare breast on an SF magazine, and we figure it's got to be a Fundamentalist bluenose fundraising campaign, or some "antisex feminist" out of Dworkinesque mythology, and we get worked up about _that_. (I once did an article about the Political Correctness hysteria, and found that a lot of the early tales were like this.) No one's immune. I'm not. Harlan isn't. Bradford isn't.

The bile we're seeing over at Bradford's site is a good example of this. Frankly, while Bradford seems pretty interesting, her audience ain't always the _creme de la crop_. The chatter about the ROF covers was like high school girl-yabber at best.

And blogs are prone to a particular kind of shitty behavior. Someone posts a complaint-- candidate cracks wise about Obama, husband watches too much porn, teacher's too critical about the short story in the workshop. Hordes of others wade in with 'sympathetic' notes of 'support' that do little but get others worked up the outrage, real or imagined, and in some cases, working up a severe hate for particular individuals. And moralists who feel the need to assert their moral superiority, by posing as the more outraged, get to strut about.

That's pretty much what turned up there once Harlan posted his complaint about Bradford; lots of fanchildren adding their worthless observations that "He's always been an asshole" and "I've never read his stories" and "he's just old and icky" and, well, you know the rest. It's the herd behavior of 'independent' minds, following the script. And I'm sure they're all insisting that Bradford reject the apology and hold a grudge against bad ol'Harlan.

I'm sure they've already contributed this to Wikipedia, making sure that this moral outrage does not go undocumented... the people who've never read an Ellison story, regard his civil rights work as ancient history, and know nothing of his career in general. (Even sadder, these are people who think that Internet skills are a minimum requirement for someone to be taken seriously. So much for, say, the late Leszec Kolakowski.)

So, like I said: The only issue here is between Bradford and Harlan, and they seem to be reaching for a rapproachment. I hope they work it out. _EVERYTHING_ beyond this is just fans having a wank.










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