Whatcha reading?

For the discussion of Movies, Television, Comics, and other existential distractions.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:44 am

Sam -
I think the Afghan War -- still largely incomplete and a failure -- was justifiable. This is one of the biggest errors in Bush's term of office, IMHO. It was justifiable, justified and had the potential to improve the lives of the people of Afghanistan. By electing to pursue a personal grudge against Hussein, Bush sold the American and Afghani people up the river and committed what I truly to believe a treasonous act -- attacking Iraq on false pretenses.

I also believe the First Iraq War was largely justifiable - and it was persecuted in a legally defensible manner. The rationale for that war -- ignoring the vast oil reserves -- was the same as WW2. A dictator had invaded a sovereign nation. And remember, there were fears he was planning to push down into Saudi Arabia and perhaps into other Gulf states. From that perspective the first war differs only in degrees from WW2, plus the oil thing.

Korea: I'm not sure.

Vietnam: no doubt a "wrong" war.

Iraq: Perhaps even less justifiable than the Vietnam War.
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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:33 am

Iraq: Perhaps even less justifiable than the Vietnam War.



Barber

Care to explain. IMO seeing as how we now know we were being LIED to from the get go, I think it was much less justifiable that Vietnam.

But, I'm willing to hear from the other side.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:57 am

Lori Koonce wrote:Care to explain. IMO seeing as how we now know we were being LIED to from the get go, I think it was much less justifiable that Vietnam.

But, I'm willing to hear from the other side.


"Justifiable war" versus "War the government lied us into". Two different concepts.

In one we look at the cause and effect for going to war (in this case, I noted that the cause for going to war against Iraq was perhaps less justifiable than the Vietnam War), while in the other we look at the unjustifiable actions of the administration to gain popular support for going to war.

I don't happen to feel, even in hindsight, that the war in Iraq was any more acceptable a military action than Vietnam. Both were fought for dubious reasons.

However, to make the point: Bush & Co. seem to have committed what I would call treasonous acts in getting us INTO that war.

(And just to get us back on topic) Just started Dan Simmons' Drood. Big book, but so far a fairly quick read.
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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:11 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:
Iraq: Perhaps even less justifiable than the Vietnam War.



Barber

Care to explain. IMO seeing as how we now know we were being LIED to from the get go, I think it was much less justifiable that Vietnam.



Well, Vietnam was predicated on lies as well. Not just little lies like the Tonkin incident, but real whoppers like "Ho-Chi-Min, the Stalinist stooge, is invading the sovereign nation of south Vietnam".

People still believe that one. It was used to justify bombing both countries into oblivion, to the tune of something like 3 million dead (give or take?).

Gulph War II at least removed Sadam Hussein.

Robert S. Macnamera carries on a dialogue with his former adversaries in....................... damn, I forgot the title. Something like Mistakes of History or something like that. Fascinating stuff.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby FrankChurch » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:34 pm

Remember, we attacked South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh was not the evil one it was Diem, the democratically elected leader of South Vietnam. He was killed, because the South wanted to control their economy. The US called that Communism, because they wanted to help their buddies France control the economy. The North invaded later. The majority of deaths were in the south.

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The Gulf War was illegal because we didn't have a war resolution voted on by Congress. The UN should have sent peacekeepers. There's even possible evidence that Saddam invaded because he thought we told him to. There were also border issues.

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Afghanistan was also illegal. The Taliban told Bush that they would give him Osama, if Bush gave them evidence that he did 9/11. Bush refused and invaded. Remember, Richard Clarke told us that Bush wanted to invade Iraq instead. There was also evidence that an invasion of Afghanistan would create famine that would kill around 3 million people. It didn't happen, but it could have.

In polls before hand, the people of Afghanistan didn't want us to invade. Our invasion made Arab States hate us.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:00 pm

Diem was also thinking about peace with the North. His masters couldn't have that. . .

Back in October I read The Breadwinner by Deborah Ellis. A perfectly dreadful children's book about life under the Taliban. Useless as literature, but nevertheless invaluable as a text book for teaching world issues to twelve year olds. I can't quite bring myself to regret the overthrow of the Taliban, legal or not.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Moderator » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:35 pm

http://www.harlanellison.com/heboard/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2425


(War Debate moved to a new thread in the "General" thread. This thread now returned to the original "Whatcha Reading?" topic.)
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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Steve Evil » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:31 pm

For what its worth, the debate was entirely relevant to what I was reading at the time. .

Right now: Careers with the York Region District School Board. Far less thought provoking.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Jessi » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:25 pm

Just finished "West With the Night" by Beryl Markham. It's her memoir of her time growing up in Africa and learning to fly. It was a great read.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:15 pm

Well, it's not exactally what I'm reading, seeing as how I haven't recieved the box yet.....

But a very nice Webderlander is sending me a big box of assorted Stephen King books, and whatever else he's got that fit the author list I gave him.

I'll keep all posted.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Jan » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:46 pm

Rick wrote:I am not happy that St. Martin's ceased publication of the YEAR'S BEST FANTASY AND HORROR series.

I have one volume and never found a great story in it.

Reading The Garden of Eden by Hemingway and re-starting Madame Bovary with the intention of finishing it. Also The Beloved Returns by Thomas Mann, if I recall the American title correctly. All terriffic and interesting.

I suggest Steve combine the two reading threads because we wouldn't wanna lose the traditional one.

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Moderator » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:03 pm

Good point Jan -- I think this one had become quiescent enough that it was forgotten.


reading and more reading

Postby Richard Keeney » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:04 am
anywebder wanna talk about what's on your bookshelf or under your pen?

I just read an interesting interview with Neil Gaiman, from THE NEIL GAIMAN READER, in which he names MR. PUNCH as his best graphic novel. I was not wildly surprised, but I've such a fondness for the SANDMAN.

I read in many different areas, but prefer discussing genre fiction, so:
I read "Cargo" by E. Michael Lewis, from Ellen Datlow's(ed.) THE BEST HORROR OF THE YEAR VOLUME ONE from Night Shade Books, and I feel a tad haunted. I am not happy that St. Martin's ceased publication of the YEAR'S BEST FANTASY AND HORROR series. Inexplicable decisions made by people I know not. At least this volume is typically wonderful, from Ms. Datlow.

Has anyone here read t Winter-Damon? He's my favorite freakshow, whack-job, nutbag, genius. (Well, one of my favorites. Thomas Ligotti, Caitlin R. Kiernan and HPL make that cut as well. but t Winter conducts his very own wildstorm.) I discovered him in the old DAW, YEAR'S BEST HORROR line. (I think that one is defunct as well.) Randy Chandler is his commonest cohort; another crazy.


What are you reading?
Rick
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Re: reading and more reading

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:26 am
To sooth an anxious mind, I'm rereading the canon of Sherlock Holmes stories by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I have a nice old Barnes & Noble "Complete Works"-- a big chunky book that props up nicely on a pillow on my lap. :)
Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: "Gentleness never accompanies anything without enhancing it, nor is it ever removed from anything without demeaning it." Narrated by Al-Bayhaqi.

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Re: reading and more reading

Postby Barber » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:52 am
I am midway through A COOK'S TOUR by Anthony Bourdain. The season has caught me with limited reading time, so I'm down to the one.

Oh, and it doesn't really qualify as reading, but I'm doing a lot of perusing the Eyewitness Travel - Australia travel guide.
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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Richard Keeney » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:22 pm

Jan wrote:I have one volume and never found a great story in it..


Which volume do you own, Jan? That surprises me.

Rick
"It would be interesting to know what it is men are most afraid of. Taking a new step, uttering a new word is what they fear most."
--F. Dostoievsky, from CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby Lori Koonce » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:52 pm

call me perverse, but I'm reading the Stand. It hit me what a strange book that is to be reading during this time of Swine Flu and what have you!

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Re: Whatcha reading?

Postby cynic » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:21 pm

okay lori, you're perverse.
Gerald's Game was good, traded with my daughter when i gave her Danse Macabre .
GG was good, reminded me of my first memorable read (a bit), The Pit and The Pendulum .
The Stand is the only other S. King on my list.
follow your bliss,mike


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