Dark Knight Review

For the discussion of Movies, Television, Comics, and other existential distractions.

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markabaddon
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Postby markabaddon » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:08 am

There are a number of extraneous factors that were involved in the Bane storyline, including the eventual inclusion of the Azrael character. You could drop those, though, and just focus on a bad-ass dude, hopped up on a super-steroid with tremendous fighting skills to match his strength.

Robin will not be in these films, irrespective of Bale's comments, he just does not fit in with the overall tenor of the films.

Poison Ivy could work as a villain, but she may not be strong enough to carry the film on her own, and then you start down the path of some previous iterations of the Batman franchise

David, that scene on the ferry was one of the favorite parts of the film, but I did not want to touch it in the review because I was afraid of spoiling things too much.

I thought Lucius was a character that was in the comics, although not a major one compared to others in Bruce's life, and I just checked Wiki and found that is correct. Here is the entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Fox

Oh and Anthony Michael Hall has been doing good stuff for a number of years. He was a bully in Edward Scissorhands, he was Bill Gates in the TV movie about the rise of Microsoft, and he was in a TV show based on The Dead Zone.
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Postby Moderator » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:10 am

David - I rather suspect Fox was a character but will let others weigh in. Anthony Michael Hall has been starring in a series based on Stephen King's DEAD ZONE on basic cable for the last few years.

As to the topic of neat-o cool opponents for another film: Deathstroke.

Equally trained, equally resourceful, equally motivated, and as deadly an opponent as Batman himself. He's what Batman would be if he became a mercenary. And, with his public identity the film would open up to exploring more of Bruce Wayne's "world".

Not even sure if they've met in the comics -- I'd be shocked if they haven't, I just haven't seen it if they have -- but Deathstroke made an appearance in the old Vigilante comic that left an impression on me to this day.
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Postby markabaddon » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:57 am

Slade Wilson (Deathstroke) vs. Batman is something I am dying to see, but am not sure it would work on the screen too well. Slade just is not well known enough outside of the comics universe.

Thye have faced each other, most recently in issue 7 of Infinite Crisis, but it was not a highlight of that story, to my disappointment. If they made a limited series of Bats taking on Slade I would buy it in a heartbeat

Just one dispute on the comparison between the two, though: Slade was enhanced by the Army. Not as much as a Captain America, and he was excellent before he was enhanced, but he has had some modifications. Bats is a completely self made man.
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Postby Moderator » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:10 am

I dunno. I can see an ad campaign built around "They Call Him Deathstroke". Fast cuts between various action sequences. Pounding music. Sudden silence. Then the sound of his sword "ching"ing through the air, a flash of reflected light, cut to black. Fade up on a dark headshot of half his mask (well, we know the black part is there...just not visible).

That'd get 'em in the doors, I think.

Yes. Slade was enhanced. Quicker reactions, etc, but his training was equal to the Bat's.

But the difference between Deathstroke and every one of the Batman's film foes, save Qui-go...err, Ra's al Ghul, is that they are basically insane caricatures. Terrifying, yes, but insane.

Wilson isn't. He does what he does for money. Immoral at times, moral at others, but completely understandable in a mercenary way.

And that is what would make the film interesting, IMHO.
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Postby Ben W. » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:54 am

If Christopher Nolan really wants to continue his theme of "no goofy superpowers" (in addition to the established format of one primary and one secondary villain per movie), the Riddler or Catwoman would seem appropriate.

Black Mask is too a little too obscure, even for Batman fans, and Nolan's already frowned on the idea of using the Penguin in the past. Mind you, Heath Ledger managed to pull off a similarly "unreal" character; why can't an experienced thespian do the same for old Oswald? Jack Black would be my personal choice; sure, he's only known at the moment as a wise-ass comedian, but I think he's got plenty of untapped potential. His performance in KING KONG gives a hint of what he's capable of in terms of darkness.

Poison Ivy could work, but the "femme fatale" persona would have to go; maybe a freakish mutant hybrid, like something out of Harlan's THE DISCARDED?

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Postby Moderator » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:27 pm

I'm not sure the general public needs to or is going to know all that much about the villain. Before Batman Returns, how many of them were aware of the Scarecrow or Ra's Al Ghul???

Batman is the known product. As long as the quality remains the villain simply has to be marketable, not a necessarily known quantity.
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Postby FrankChurch » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:28 pm

At least he didn't sell his soul like Sam Raimi.

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Postby Duane » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:40 pm

"David, that scene on the ferry..."

What, there's a FERRY in the movie??? Dammit, now the movie's spoiled for me forever. No way it'll be worth it to fork over a sawbuck to see it now. Thanks a lot.

By the way, as a guy who's ridden all kinds of two wheeled contrivances over the years, NO WAY IN HELL can a motorcycle have wheels that cumbersome and in any way be operable. Just sayin'. Vroom vroom, baby!!

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Postby David Loftus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:45 pm

Yeah, I was wondering how it could also be so flexible without tearing itself apart.
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Postby markabaddon » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:57 pm

Steve, that could be a plausible setup for the introduction of Slade. You could even have Eric Roberts reprise his role as Moroni, saying that he hired a crackpot to get rid of the Batman last time, and now wants to use a professional

Ben, not sure Catwoman will be included any time soon between the use of the character in Batman Returns and the ill fated movie with Halle Berry, she probably needs to be shelved for a while

Sorry for the spoiler Duane :lol:

In a film like this, I am willing to suspend disbelief. The motorcycle, being whisked away from Hong Kong by that balloon, the fall from the top of a building that did not injure either he or Rachel, there was lots that was improbable. Still was one hell of an enjoyable movie
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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Postby alexanderthesoso » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:55 pm

why can't an experienced thespian do the same for old Oswald? Jack Black would be my personal choice; sure, he's only known at the moment as a wise-ass comedian, but I think he's got plenty of untapped potential. His performance in KING KONG gives a hint of what he's capable of in terms of darkness.

dude, thats just.... thats perfect. I would love to see jack black as the penguin. Let him play the villain for once.

as for scarecrow or rhaes al ghul, the majority of people going to the theaters are ones who were kids during the latest batman cartoon in the 90's. And both of those characters were very recurrent in that series. In fact, I love how much batman begins reminded me of the cartoon, only more adult, in the themes it explored.

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Postby kevinkirby » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:58 pm

IMO, the Riddler is the only character capable of following up the Dark Knight, within the style of Nolan's current Batman cycle. He could easily begin as somebody inhabiting the organized crime circles, as introduced in the new film. But, touched by the infective philosophy of the Joker, he goes off the deep end. As an insane kidnapper of the extremely rich, his demands take the form of indecipherable riddles. And when his demands go unmet, his hapless victims meet with the most gruesome fates imaginable.

Only when he decides to target Bruce Wayne, though, does the Bat enter the picture...

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Postby Barney Dannelke » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:23 pm

I thought I would place this very delayed reaction to one reading of the new BATMAN movie here. All you need to know is that my response to this article is part of a series of letters I have been writing to a friend of mine. My central thesis is that torture has no place in a modern society. No exceptions. My analogy is that it is exactly AS wrong as slavery. My correspondent agrees there is NO justification for slavery, ever, but is not ready to make the same blanket statement regarding torture.

This half of a single exchange is just one small part of a much larger back and forth he and i have been having since they opened GITMO for "enhanced" interrogation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/opini ... ess&st=cse

and my response;

M***,

I thought the Letham piece was FINE until the very last two lines which I felt were running away from his premise - that he did indeed know who this iteration of the Batman was - and then proceeds to make the mistake of making "us" the Joker when, clearly, the Joker (in his thesis) ought to represent outside chaotic forces and not internal ones. Urban decay is a separate problem and should not be ascribed to the Joker/symbol.

With my personal focus on torture this reading of the Batman did occur to me - but I'm standing pat with my better and more reality based slavery as INexcusable* moral lapse analogy.

What neither Lethem or Klaven do is go the extra mile and consider the notion put forth by the movie that omniscient surveillance capacity is somehow better left in the hands of a wise black man (Morgan Freemen/Lucius Fox) - which I only point out because it seems if you are in for a penny with this sort of metaphor then you might as well go the whole pound.

But M***, the purpose of this ought to be to ask one basic question. Is this where we want to be? Are we a culture that has decided to line up it's moral values with that of an adolescent wish-fulfillment comic book character?

I sincerely hope we have not sunk quite that low. But perhaps we have.

- Barney Dannelke

Batcave, PA.

* (George W. seems to prefer "UNexcusable" which is just another executive branch decision I call into question)
History is a vast early warning system. -Norman Cousins (1915-1990)

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David Loftus
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Postby David Loftus » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:18 am

Barney Dannelke wrote:* (George W. seems to prefer "UNexcusable" which is just another executive branch decision I call into question)



Aw, man, that's just dis-excusable.


(There was a terrific Peanuts cartoon, long long ago, in which Linus says something to his sister about something being obvious and walks off. She yells at him, "Well, it may be obvious to you, but it sure is dis-obvious to me!" In the final panel, she's staring out at the reader with a puzzled look and saying, "Un-obvious? De-obvious? Sub-obvious. . . .?"
War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off. - Karl Kraus

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Postby Steve Evil » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:10 pm

Just got from a budget screening. . . now I know what to be for Halloween!

I never liked the Riddler. That quirky villain stuff is the sole domain of the Joker, and I've never seen it done satisfactorily anywhere else. (I will never forgive RT Davies for what he did with The Master). We need a more subdued figure to follow up Heath Leger. My vote's for Penguin. Or rhaes al ghul. That would be cool. . .

Barney (If I may):


The torture in this film seems pretty ineffectual. The heroes don't gain any useful information from beating up their captives. The Joker does not crack under Batman's fist - he rather seems to get off on it. Torture seems more an expression of rage and frustration than a useful tactic, and I wouldn't say it's endorsed in this film.
But I agree with you: torture is morally wrong, and I would hope that a Hollywood film wouldn't significantly influence someone's attitude towards it.


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