Pavilion Digest: July 2009

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Harlan Ellison
Harlan Fucking Ellison
Posts: 847
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:24 am

OPEN LETTER TO MS. KAY TEMPEST BRADFORD

Postby Harlan Ellison » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:35 pm

Name: HARLAN ELLISON
Source: unca20091009.htm
Dear Ms. Bradford:

You have a number of good friends who also happen to be good friends of mine. They have rallied on your behalf, to contact me by phone (four today alone), to tan my bottom in regards to my, well, at best, at very minimally best, my "snarky" response to what I perceived to be yet another Total Stranger Meanspirited Internet Troll Assault. I fear there is still a tot too much "street" in me to let such perceived calumny go unanswered.

Apparently, I received inadequate information, some of which I interpreted incorrectly, some of which was simply wrong.

One of the heartrending epiphanies of the current Paradigm Shift is that the most adolescently ignorant demographic of this far-from-perfect society needs to (as my President said today) "ratchet down the noise-level." The moment one such as I goes for the okeydoke and begins to believe this "geezer" bullshit, is the moment one realizes that we like in a Momentary-Celebrity Culture, and for everyone claiming sexism, racism, elitism, et al ... there are 10,000 arrogant little twits, semi-literate, semi-humanoid, and less-than-semi-courteous, who truly believe that to have SURVIVED and STILL BE PULLING THE PLOW, is to grant them power over you. Depression and anger and suicide follow therefrom.

I am 75. I'm old, I ain't senile.

I still work, I still publish, I still have very cool thoughts and do very cool deeds, every day. I'm not quite ready yet to let monkeybrain bloggers who need Google to know who Colette or Guy de Maupassant are, predicate my existence.

Mmm. I've drifted. Your friends tell me to back off and not attempt to exact the demonic vigerish that is my wont. Several people known and unknown to me personally advise me that you are rather a cranky soul yourself, so you shouldn't be TOO 'tude about my responding in kind.

That it turns out you're not as deserving of my bestial attentions as others I've used as objects of scaphism, warms my li'l ole heart, and if any part of my reply to your various blogs here'n'there was over the line, consider this a gentlemanly apologia. I know this message will get to you, via one or another conduit, so here's my IfYouTalkTheTalk you'd better be ready to WalkTheWalk: I have no idea where you live, but if you are anywhere near where I am, please name the time and the day, and my wife, Susan, and I would be condign taking you for an excellent meal at one of the great joints I frequent.

THEN--and ONLY then--you'll be able to make your own informed judgment about me. And you won't have to poison yourself with the fanboy/fangirl gossip that substitutes for ratiocination on this electronic asswipe of a medium.

You know where to find me.

Respectfully, Harlan Ellison

shagin
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:58 pm
Location: Bremerton, WA

Postby shagin » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:48 pm

Name: shagin
Source: unca20091007.htm
"You know where to find me.

Respectfully, Harlan Ellison "


And that, my friends, is the voice of a gentleman.


Sandra

shagin
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:58 pm
Location: Bremerton, WA

Postby shagin » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:48 pm

Name: shagin
Source: unca20091009.htm
"You know where to find me.

Respectfully, Harlan Ellison "


And that, my friends, is the voice of a gentleman.


Sandra

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Robert Morales
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 3:59 am

What I just posted on Bradford's site

Postby Robert Morales » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Name: Robert Morales
Source: unca20091007.htm
Tempest. as a man of tint who has been on the receiving end of the N-word long before white guys used it with their weird post-hip hop assumption of cultural bonhomie while Im relieved you removed your N-word-laced post from yesterday, I wish you hadnt because it included your mention of sexism followed by the parenthetical mention of the Harlan boob grab that clearly pissed him off. You removed the context of his overreaction, which was to to mock your rhetoric. He was mean, but - this is for ALL of you reading now - it doesnt make him a racist.

Chip Delany, who speaks highly of you, gave me your email, and I hope we can communicate privately, but I see this situation getting out of hand here and there a few things Id like to point out before I disappear.

There are real racists in the world and it doesnt do for everyone to accuse someone of being one because he says something (intended!) to piss you off. Yeah, Harlan helped Octavia, and me, and - it would be safe to say - HUNDREDS of writers to have their careers, writing pretty much what they wanted. Not just writers of color or women - but that he championed people past the prejudices of sf and fantasy and comics and mysteries, and so on, SHOULD MEAN SOMETHING TO YOU. Lets not undervalue that.

I havent hung out in the sf community for decades, so I dont know who the racists are, if any. But I do hear tell of several old school lecherous gropers in the field, none of whom get called on it although people love to tell me about them.

None of them is Harlan. What people leave out of the boob story is that it was part of a skit that was on a stage. It was a bit; it was a failed Artie Johnson sketch that I didnt find funny, but enough people did - women as well as men - that the mythology built around it in a supposedly creative community is despicable. It wasnt in a hallway, in a stairwell, in an elevator. It was this: Connie asks Harlan on stage if hes going to be a good boy and he pretends to be a 5-year-old and blindly paws at her chest. He didnt grab her, he didnt give her a titty-twister - he may have been inappropriate, but there was nothing that struck me as lecherous. It was dopey.

On a Comedy Central roast - modeled like most sf stage presentations for at least 40 years on the truly vicious Friars Club Roasts - nobody wouldve even have registered it as any more than something that didnt work well, at least for me. What strikes me about this boob myth is two things: The field is too cowardly to call out its sexual abusers but will conveniently use the rap against a guy that annoys them. And that a creative community may have become too pious to allow for creative failure outside its comfort zone. In other words, values that reflect the exact opposite of those that originally attracted me to sf.

Im saddened by the piling on here, not the least because of its ugly ageism exercised by people clearly smart enough to know better. Tempest, I think you and Harlan should be fighting on the same side. To all the rest of you, take care.

User avatar
Robert Morales
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 3:59 am

What I just posted on Bradford's site

Postby Robert Morales » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:58 pm

Name: Robert Morales
Source: unca20091009.htm
Tempest. as a man of tint who has been on the receiving end of the N-word long before white guys used it with their weird post-hip hop assumption of cultural bonhomie while Im relieved you removed your N-word-laced post from yesterday, I wish you hadnt because it included your mention of sexism followed by the parenthetical mention of the Harlan boob grab that clearly pissed him off. You removed the context of his overreaction, which was to to mock your rhetoric. He was mean, but - this is for ALL of you reading now - it doesnt make him a racist.

Chip Delany, who speaks highly of you, gave me your email, and I hope we can communicate privately, but I see this situation getting out of hand here and there a few things Id like to point out before I disappear.

There are real racists in the world and it doesnt do for everyone to accuse someone of being one because he says something (intended!) to piss you off. Yeah, Harlan helped Octavia, and me, and - it would be safe to say - HUNDREDS of writers to have their careers, writing pretty much what they wanted. Not just writers of color or women - but that he championed people past the prejudices of sf and fantasy and comics and mysteries, and so on, SHOULD MEAN SOMETHING TO YOU. Lets not undervalue that.

I havent hung out in the sf community for decades, so I dont know who the racists are, if any. But I do hear tell of several old school lecherous gropers in the field, none of whom get called on it although people love to tell me about them.

None of them is Harlan. What people leave out of the boob story is that it was part of a skit that was on a stage. It was a bit; it was a failed Artie Johnson sketch that I didnt find funny, but enough people did - women as well as men - that the mythology built around it in a supposedly creative community is despicable. It wasnt in a hallway, in a stairwell, in an elevator. It was this: Connie asks Harlan on stage if hes going to be a good boy and he pretends to be a 5-year-old and blindly paws at her chest. He didnt grab her, he didnt give her a titty-twister - he may have been inappropriate, but there was nothing that struck me as lecherous. It was dopey.

On a Comedy Central roast - modeled like most sf stage presentations for at least 40 years on the truly vicious Friars Club Roasts - nobody wouldve even have registered it as any more than something that didnt work well, at least for me. What strikes me about this boob myth is two things: The field is too cowardly to call out its sexual abusers but will conveniently use the rap against a guy that annoys them. And that a creative community may have become too pious to allow for creative failure outside its comfort zone. In other words, values that reflect the exact opposite of those that originally attracted me to sf.

Im saddened by the piling on here, not the least because of its ugly ageism exercised by people clearly smart enough to know better. Tempest, I think you and Harlan should be fighting on the same side. To all the rest of you, take care.

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Kate
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:14 pm

Postby Kate » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:07 pm

Name: Kate
Source: unca20091007.htm
Mr. Morales -- what an excellent post. Thoughtful, well-stated and gentlemanly. I like your style.

User avatar
Kate
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:14 pm

Postby Kate » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:07 pm

Name: Kate
Source: unca20091009.htm
Mr. Morales -- what an excellent post. Thoughtful, well-stated and gentlemanly. I like your style.

User avatar
Jim Davis
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:27 am

Four things

Postby Jim Davis » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:17 pm

Name: Jim Davis
Source: unca20091007.htm
1) In all this foofaraw, among all the "Right on, Harlan!"s that this little controversy over the Realms of Fantasy cover engendered, there wasn't ONE post here by any of the regulars pointing out that Harlan's original comments were misinformed and off-base. No one, to my knowledge, called HE or publisher Warren Lapine "sexist," or hinted at any repercussions whatsoever for publishing a story. Didn't happen. Yet, no one here thought to check things out and see if the old man had his facts straight; or, if they did, they kept their findings to themselves. Doesn't say much for the level of independent thought on this board, does it?

2) As for the comments about the cover, sure, there were some who thought the nudity offensive, but most simply found it uninspired, as in "To celebrate the relaunch of X Sf/Fantasy Magazine, let's throw Stock Artwork of Freaky Female Nude #83,497 on the cover." It's not so much the painting is shocking, it's more that it's BEEN DONE TO DEATH. To many potential readers, it hangs a big sign that says, "NO GURLZ ALLOWD--we can't be bothered to do something different from everyone else." (Not to mention that the whole design, from choice of fonts to positioning, made what could have been a nice piece of artwork, no matter how problematic, clunky and garish. But that's another issue.)

Some readers don't need to be "allowed license with the things (breasts)"--they actually possess a pair. It would be nice if publishers kept them in mind, too, instead of constantly pandering to fanboy hormones.

3) Let's not beat around the bush, here. HE called Bradford an "NWA," which, to many folks, looks like he called her a "nigger." Now, before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not calling him a racist. What I AM saying is that when addressing a woman of color you don't know, using a term like "NWA" makes you look racially insensitive AT BEST. Of all the names you could have called her, did you really have to go for a racially charged one? (And what's wrong with someone calling themselves a Person of Color, anyway?) Also, past actions, no matter how noble, don't give you a "ghetto pass" to call anyone anything you like. As someone put it, if you help an old lady across the street, that doesn't mean it's okay to kick her later.

4) Harlan, you may hate my guts, but what I'm about to say is true: as long as you rely on others to navigate and interpret the Internet for you, you will always lack a first-hand accounting of what goes on there, and misunderstandings like this will always occur. My grandmother had a saying, "Shit or get off the pot." So ditch the dial-up, get a decent connection, be it DSL or cable or whatever, and learn to do for yourself. Isn't that what you always counsel everyone else?

User avatar
Jim Davis
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:27 am

Four things

Postby Jim Davis » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:17 pm

Name: Jim Davis
Source: unca20091009.htm
1) In all this foofaraw, among all the "Right on, Harlan!"s that this little controversy over the Realms of Fantasy cover engendered, there wasn't ONE post here by any of the regulars pointing out that Harlan's original comments were misinformed and off-base. No one, to my knowledge, called HE or publisher Warren Lapine "sexist," or hinted at any repercussions whatsoever for publishing a story. Didn't happen. Yet, no one here thought to check things out and see if the old man had his facts straight; or, if they did, they kept their findings to themselves. Doesn't say much for the level of independent thought on this board, does it?

2) As for the comments about the cover, sure, there were some who thought the nudity offensive, but most simply found it uninspired, as in "To celebrate the relaunch of X Sf/Fantasy Magazine, let's throw Stock Artwork of Freaky Female Nude #83,497 on the cover." It's not so much the painting is shocking, it's more that it's BEEN DONE TO DEATH. To many potential readers, it hangs a big sign that says, "NO GURLZ ALLOWD--we can't be bothered to do something different from everyone else." (Not to mention that the whole design, from choice of fonts to positioning, made what could have been a nice piece of artwork, no matter how problematic, clunky and garish. But that's another issue.)

Some readers don't need to be "allowed license with the things (breasts)"--they actually possess a pair. It would be nice if publishers kept them in mind, too, instead of constantly pandering to fanboy hormones.

3) Let's not beat around the bush, here. HE called Bradford an "NWA," which, to many folks, looks like he called her a "nigger." Now, before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not calling him a racist. What I AM saying is that when addressing a woman of color you don't know, using a term like "NWA" makes you look racially insensitive AT BEST. Of all the names you could have called her, did you really have to go for a racially charged one? (And what's wrong with someone calling themselves a Person of Color, anyway?) Also, past actions, no matter how noble, don't give you a "ghetto pass" to call anyone anything you like. As someone put it, if you help an old lady across the street, that doesn't mean it's okay to kick her later.

4) Harlan, you may hate my guts, but what I'm about to say is true: as long as you rely on others to navigate and interpret the Internet for you, you will always lack a first-hand accounting of what goes on there, and misunderstandings like this will always occur. My grandmother had a saying, "Shit or get off the pot." So ditch the dial-up, get a decent connection, be it DSL or cable or whatever, and learn to do for yourself. Isn't that what you always counsel everyone else?

Alan Coil
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:21 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan

Postby Alan Coil » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:40 pm

Name: Alan Coil
Source: unca20091007.htm
Concerning the Realms thingy, it's no surprise that some posts were deleted. That's another problem with the internet, the ability to say something stupid, then deny it was said.

And if you are making a comment about a post that has been deleted, it sure makes you look foolish. And when someone then takes you to task for over-reacting, it makes that someone look rather foolish, too.

Get the point, Jim?

Alan Coil
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:21 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan

Postby Alan Coil » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:40 pm

Name: Alan Coil
Source: unca20091009.htm
Concerning the Realms thingy, it's no surprise that some posts were deleted. That's another problem with the internet, the ability to say something stupid, then deny it was said.

And if you are making a comment about a post that has been deleted, it sure makes you look foolish. And when someone then takes you to task for over-reacting, it makes that someone look rather foolish, too.

Get the point, Jim?

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

I can't even leave youse guys alone unwatched on your own

Postby diane bartels » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:22 pm

Name: diane bartels
Source: unca20091007.htm
More major brew-ha-ha. Lord, every time I don't come here for a bit, the whole site goes CRAZY. Jeez, Louise. Harlan and Susan, most important stuff first - Glad your thingy went well. I did read a few times just to make sure, but hadn't the time to post. Now due to brief parting of ways with my beloved sister, and procrastination re getting the Internet on me own, I am here at Kinko's.
So, therefore, I must be brief. Had the most killer idea for a story last week, but life and my darling siblings intervened with its writing. Things having calmed back down, I told them to leave me the fuck alone for awhile; my hopes are to get back to the writing tonite.
Paul, I have not any marvelous rare copy of an HE book, but kind thoughts are afloatin' your way.
Just an observation: I'm certifiably a girl/woman. And I like breasts. At worst they are harmless, inoffensive critters; at best, they can be quite lovely and spendiferous.
When I was in LA, to see DWST and listen to Harlan, he used the word cripple. Although I can qualify for the term with ease, (head injuries, brain surgery, hip replacement, knee replacement, etc.- We have the technology, we can rebuild her -
I took not the slighest offense. Two reasons ,well maybe three,
I know Harlan would be the first to march for disabled rights, the first to insist on handicapped access to public places, the first to help me up a curb or down a step should I need it.
Two, when something is said hyperbolically for effect(I not sure I'm right on the use of the one word or the spelling of the other, forgive I am in Kinko hell.I mean hyperbole,) ala Lenny Bruce, by some one I know (kinda sorta), like and respect, why would I burn time, brain cells, emotional energy getting distraught. In fact, whatever the context was, (my thyroid now hates me too)I laughed. You were funny that night Harlan. The third reason is I do like Harlan and Susan both, and Harlan would have to kick my cats on Hollywood Blvd, or some other such atrocious act to earn ire from me. (or debase "The Prophet", she said whimsically with a soft and gentle smile).Besides the man saved my life last year with his advice on heart attack pain in"Shattered."
I owe him one or two.
I am reading a John Le Carre novel," Mission Song". I like it; my first Le Carre novel. Also read a autobiography of Lorraine Bracco. Liked that too. Am attempting for the third time to read Amy Tam's (or is it Tan; damn my memory) "Saving Fish from Drowning". I like it; it's just a bit slower. I am smack dab right in the middle of "The Brothers Karamazov". I am stuck, as in a bog, or a fog, or devoured by a large black dog. Heeeelp!she cried forlonly. It's not that I don't like it. It's just that I can only do ten or fifteen pages at a time;then I need digestion time. Was this anyone's else experience? Harlan, David? Barney this is allll your fault. Your stating some months back that you were going to read the Russians got me started on this. Have I just had tooo many brain surgeries, or am I proceeding at a proper pace for this book? This is a lot slower than my usual reading speed.
Anyway, that's about it. Oh, I have a joke. Do not read if you are easily offended.
Guy walks into a pharmacy. The pharmacist asks "Can I help you?"
Guy says, "I'm looking for some condoms." "Oh, the married kind or the single kind" "Well, what's the diff?" "Well, there's twelve in the married box and seven in the single". Why would that be? Well, the single guy needs Sun. Mon. Tues. etc. The married guy needs Jan. Feb. March.
That is all, folks.
- Hoping to soon be released from Kinko hell. Which would make it Kinko purgatory, I guess.DB
P.S. This will be silly for non-animal people; but my one pet rat died about two weeks ago. I came home and found him dead.
I cried my eyes out. He had a good life for a rat. Snowflake, the other rat, misses him a lot. But Snow is okay. And the cats are okay. No matter how small or incongruous they are, it hearts bad when our pets go. Even is they had their span and were content and happy. I am better now, but I don't know why I keep doing this to myself. More animals and more animal. Must be truly stupid. DB

diane bartels
Posts: 1255
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: CHICAGO IL

I can't even leave youse guys alone unwatched on your own

Postby diane bartels » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:22 pm

Name: diane bartels
Source: unca20091009.htm
More major brew-ha-ha. Lord, every time I don't come here for a bit, the whole site goes CRAZY. Jeez, Louise. Harlan and Susan, most important stuff first - Glad your thingy went well. I did read a few times just to make sure, but hadn't the time to post. Now due to brief parting of ways with my beloved sister, and procrastination re getting the Internet on me own, I am here at Kinko's.
So, therefore, I must be brief. Had the most killer idea for a story last week, but life and my darling siblings intervened with its writing. Things having calmed back down, I told them to leave me the fuck alone for awhile; my hopes are to get back to the writing tonite.
Paul, I have not any marvelous rare copy of an HE book, but kind thoughts are afloatin' your way.
Just an observation: I'm certifiably a girl/woman. And I like breasts. At worst they are harmless, inoffensive critters; at best, they can be quite lovely and spendiferous.
When I was in LA, to see DWST and listen to Harlan, he used the word cripple. Although I can qualify for the term with ease, (head injuries, brain surgery, hip replacement, knee replacement, etc.- We have the technology, we can rebuild her -
I took not the slighest offense. Two reasons ,well maybe three,
I know Harlan would be the first to march for disabled rights, the first to insist on handicapped access to public places, the first to help me up a curb or down a step should I need it.
Two, when something is said hyperbolically for effect(I not sure I'm right on the use of the one word or the spelling of the other, forgive I am in Kinko hell.I mean hyperbole,) ala Lenny Bruce, by some one I know (kinda sorta), like and respect, why would I burn time, brain cells, emotional energy getting distraught. In fact, whatever the context was, (my thyroid now hates me too)I laughed. You were funny that night Harlan. The third reason is I do like Harlan and Susan both, and Harlan would have to kick my cats on Hollywood Blvd, or some other such atrocious act to earn ire from me. (or debase "The Prophet", she said whimsically with a soft and gentle smile).Besides the man saved my life last year with his advice on heart attack pain in"Shattered."
I owe him one or two.
I am reading a John Le Carre novel," Mission Song". I like it; my first Le Carre novel. Also read a autobiography of Lorraine Bracco. Liked that too. Am attempting for the third time to read Amy Tam's (or is it Tan; damn my memory) "Saving Fish from Drowning". I like it; it's just a bit slower. I am smack dab right in the middle of "The Brothers Karamazov". I am stuck, as in a bog, or a fog, or devoured by a large black dog. Heeeelp!she cried forlonly. It's not that I don't like it. It's just that I can only do ten or fifteen pages at a time;then I need digestion time. Was this anyone's else experience? Harlan, David? Barney this is allll your fault. Your stating some months back that you were going to read the Russians got me started on this. Have I just had tooo many brain surgeries, or am I proceeding at a proper pace for this book? This is a lot slower than my usual reading speed.
Anyway, that's about it. Oh, I have a joke. Do not read if you are easily offended.
Guy walks into a pharmacy. The pharmacist asks "Can I help you?"
Guy says, "I'm looking for some condoms." "Oh, the married kind or the single kind" "Well, what's the diff?" "Well, there's twelve in the married box and seven in the single". Why would that be? Well, the single guy needs Sun. Mon. Tues. etc. The married guy needs Jan. Feb. March.
That is all, folks.
- Hoping to soon be released from Kinko hell. Which would make it Kinko purgatory, I guess.DB
P.S. This will be silly for non-animal people; but my one pet rat died about two weeks ago. I came home and found him dead.
I cried my eyes out. He had a good life for a rat. Snowflake, the other rat, misses him a lot. But Snow is okay. And the cats are okay. No matter how small or incongruous they are, it hearts bad when our pets go. Even is they had their span and were content and happy. I am better now, but I don't know why I keep doing this to myself. More animals and more animal. Must be truly stupid. DB

Diane

Postby Diane » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:27 pm

Name: Diane
Source: unca20091007.htm
I forgot. His name was Stormy. He was grey. The rat. Back to the horned devils in Kinko uniforms with their whips and chains.

Diane

Postby Diane » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:27 pm

Name: Diane
Source: unca20091009.htm
I forgot. His name was Stormy. He was grey. The rat. Back to the horned devils in Kinko uniforms with their whips and chains.


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