Pavilion Digest: July 2009

A plethora of perplexing pavilion posts. The Pavilion Annex thread, the Pavilion Discussion thread, and monthly digests of all messages from the Pavilion.

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Adam-Troy
Posts: 301
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One Correction

Postby Adam-Troy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:38 am

Name: Adam-Troy Castro
Source: unca20091007.htm
You can tell Harlan Ellison what to do and what not to do, without getting your head bitten off. You just need to be able to come up with reasons he can respect.

Adam-Troy
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:05 am
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One Correction

Postby Adam-Troy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:38 am

Name: Adam-Troy Castro
Source: unca20091009.htm
You can tell Harlan Ellison what to do and what not to do, without getting your head bitten off. You just need to be able to come up with reasons he can respect.

Turd Gobbler

Turd Gobbling

Postby Turd Gobbler » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:16 am

Name: Turd Gobbler
Source: unca20091007.htm
I'll make this quick 'cause I know Ellison needs to eat his mashed bananas, maybe get his Geritol and Metamucil...and, Rick, this will be my last post here 'cause this is really addressed to you and Barber.

This IS Ellison's house and he can be as classy as he can manage. Which isn't much, especially when he wants to run this place like white trailer- trash. I know all about white trailer-trash 'cause I used to be one. Emphasis on 'used to'.

So the reason Jim and I tried to be a voice of reason on this unreasonable site is precisely because of the following:
--------------------------------------------------------
Mary Stubbs
Windsor, Ontario - Sunday, July 26 2009 6:38:40

Harlan's involvement in the ERA, Octavia Butler's career and Dr. King's march has earned him the right to call anyone "nigger" or "bitch" he wants to. He always uses such words properly, and I wish he'd jive-talk more often.

Love, Mary
--------------------------------------------

Seriously? THAT'S keeping it classy, Ellison? Or Rick, or Steve? By not even addressing such statements, you condone this type of behavior and cult of personality that exists. This isn't the first time someone on this site has said something like this, and I'm sure someone somehow will be able to defend the above statement. Like, maybe, "he always uses such words properly". Yeah, we need to make sure that we know exactly what we're saying when we use the most insulting words to address someone. If I have to explain why a white guy (especially an old one) can't call a black person "nigger" then it's already gone, Daddy, gone. (By the way, Lapine's post defending Ellison is inane. Ellison did call Tempest an 'NWA' and instead of 'nudge nudge, wink wink' he went with "oooh, did I say that?")

Ellison's an old man, and apparently getting more deranged by the second, so I guess maybe I can understand why he won't change. He can't. But you guys need to do better. I mean, really...the next post from A-TC completely ignores Mary's words. Thanks for making that one correction, A-TC. Nothing else needs to be corrected, thanks.

So, yeah, Jim posts when the shit gets out of hand 'cause NO ONE ELSE WILL. Tilting at windmills we are in the hopes that someone on this site will get it, and understand that Ellison is not a demi-god.

But I'm done completely. Rick's and Steve's emails are no longer in my address book, and numbers have been deleted. I really did like some of the people on here, including Rick and Steve, but...no more. I can't be associated with people that turn a blind eye to outright lunacy.

Rich




Turd Gobbler

Turd Gobbling

Postby Turd Gobbler » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:16 am

Name: Turd Gobbler
Source: unca20091009.htm
I'll make this quick 'cause I know Ellison needs to eat his mashed bananas, maybe get his Geritol and Metamucil...and, Rick, this will be my last post here 'cause this is really addressed to you and Barber.

This IS Ellison's house and he can be as classy as he can manage. Which isn't much, especially when he wants to run this place like white trailer- trash. I know all about white trailer-trash 'cause I used to be one. Emphasis on 'used to'.

So the reason Jim and I tried to be a voice of reason on this unreasonable site is precisely because of the following:
--------------------------------------------------------
Mary Stubbs
Windsor, Ontario - Sunday, July 26 2009 6:38:40

Harlan's involvement in the ERA, Octavia Butler's career and Dr. King's march has earned him the right to call anyone "nigger" or "bitch" he wants to. He always uses such words properly, and I wish he'd jive-talk more often.

Love, Mary
--------------------------------------------

Seriously? THAT'S keeping it classy, Ellison? Or Rick, or Steve? By not even addressing such statements, you condone this type of behavior and cult of personality that exists. This isn't the first time someone on this site has said something like this, and I'm sure someone somehow will be able to defend the above statement. Like, maybe, "he always uses such words properly". Yeah, we need to make sure that we know exactly what we're saying when we use the most insulting words to address someone. If I have to explain why a white guy (especially an old one) can't call a black person "nigger" then it's already gone, Daddy, gone. (By the way, Lapine's post defending Ellison is inane. Ellison did call Tempest an 'NWA' and instead of 'nudge nudge, wink wink' he went with "oooh, did I say that?")

Ellison's an old man, and apparently getting more deranged by the second, so I guess maybe I can understand why he won't change. He can't. But you guys need to do better. I mean, really...the next post from A-TC completely ignores Mary's words. Thanks for making that one correction, A-TC. Nothing else needs to be corrected, thanks.

So, yeah, Jim posts when the shit gets out of hand 'cause NO ONE ELSE WILL. Tilting at windmills we are in the hopes that someone on this site will get it, and understand that Ellison is not a demi-god.

But I'm done completely. Rick's and Steve's emails are no longer in my address book, and numbers have been deleted. I really did like some of the people on here, including Rick and Steve, but...no more. I can't be associated with people that turn a blind eye to outright lunacy.

Rich




Adam-Troy
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:05 am
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Turd Gobbler

Postby Adam-Troy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:47 am

Name: Adam-Troy Castro
Source: unca20091007.htm
Thanks for choosing such an evocative and accurate handle. I could not have chosen better.

Adam-Troy
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:05 am
Contact:

Turd Gobbler

Postby Adam-Troy » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:47 am

Name: Adam-Troy Castro
Source: unca20091009.htm
Thanks for choosing such an evocative and accurate handle. I could not have chosen better.

reddragon70
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:06 am

Oh look.... A troll.

Postby reddragon70 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:53 am

Name: Iain Aitken
Source: unca20091007.htm
OK so here it is again, as it is in just about every forum on the internet. The anonomous troll, flamer and assorted insulter who hides behind the anonimity of not supplying a real name. Oh such bravery. I am trully underwelmed.

So you want to have your say, thats fine, that is what forums are all about. At least have the common courtesy and indeed the balls enough to actually use your name, email address, location (although if you do I am sure they'd be fake cos you are such a brave soul) and at least let us and Harlan counter your accusations directly if need be. At the moment I can see the kettle saying to the pot "What the fuck did you call me?" with regards to your own little diatribe.

What amazed me most though, was for all its length it actually managed to say nothing. Seriously. Nothing at all. I dont try to tell Harlan what to write, after all he's been doing for longer than I have even been on this Earth so to do so would be rather presumptuous. If you dont like what he has to say, then simply stop reading. I mostly agree with a lot of what he says, occasionally I will disagree, but I will never harangue him for expressing his ideas in his own way.

As for the use of certain "Forbidden words never to be used by the degenarate white elitist liberal/consrvative/communist (delete as applicable to your accusation) writer".... Its called shaking people up. And to do that there is nothing that is forbidden, as the very act of using forbidden things does shake people. Its kinda the point sometimes.

reddragon70
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:06 am

Oh look.... A troll.

Postby reddragon70 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:53 am

Name: Iain Aitken
Source: unca20091009.htm
OK so here it is again, as it is in just about every forum on the internet. The anonomous troll, flamer and assorted insulter who hides behind the anonimity of not supplying a real name. Oh such bravery. I am trully underwelmed.

So you want to have your say, thats fine, that is what forums are all about. At least have the common courtesy and indeed the balls enough to actually use your name, email address, location (although if you do I am sure they'd be fake cos you are such a brave soul) and at least let us and Harlan counter your accusations directly if need be. At the moment I can see the kettle saying to the pot "What the fuck did you call me?" with regards to your own little diatribe.

What amazed me most though, was for all its length it actually managed to say nothing. Seriously. Nothing at all. I dont try to tell Harlan what to write, after all he's been doing for longer than I have even been on this Earth so to do so would be rather presumptuous. If you dont like what he has to say, then simply stop reading. I mostly agree with a lot of what he says, occasionally I will disagree, but I will never harangue him for expressing his ideas in his own way.

As for the use of certain "Forbidden words never to be used by the degenarate white elitist liberal/consrvative/communist (delete as applicable to your accusation) writer".... Its called shaking people up. And to do that there is nothing that is forbidden, as the very act of using forbidden things does shake people. Its kinda the point sometimes.

User avatar
Jim Davis
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:27 am

Postby Jim Davis » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:12 am

Name: Jim Davis
Source: unca20091007.htm
"Turd-gobbler"? And who says Oscar Wilde is dead?

IAIN AITKEN: Wrong again. Rich gave his name at the bottom, which you would know if you had actually read his post.

STEVE: Nice try, but that wasn't what Alan Coil was talking about, and you know it. No one deleted any posts, just like Tempest didn't call HE a sexist or create the mock-cover and no one called for a boycott of Realms. Now, though? Take a gander at what a shitstorm all this has become: http://www.icerocket.com/search?tab=blo ... on&x=0&y=0 Really, if I could imagine a meltdown scenario for HE, calling a blogger of color who specializes in issues of race and s/f an "NWA" (which we all know is cutesy-pie for "nigger") would definitely be one of them.

As for why I bother? Well, since you saw fit to approve the posting of a private message of mine on the Forum, that venue is out, as I will have nothing to do with a board which you moderate. And I can't really see shooting the breeze on here, so I guess only crap like this makes it worth it to post anything these days. But you're right--it is futile to think I'll reach anyone here, so, yeah, this is goodbye. (I'll always remember your whining, though, so that's something!)

I'm also glad to see how, begrudging admission of "validity" aside, you saw fit for the umpteenth time to avoid addressing any of my points. The first one still stands: it's difficult to believe that a board where folks trip all over themselves to hunt for the one-billionth tchotchke for HE's groaning shelves, and where they endlessly debate whether it was a nazi swastika or an aztec swastika or a triskelion or a spindizzy or whathaveyou over Von Braun's door, couldn't generate ONE comment telling HE that he got his facts wrong. And that some folks actually dropped a dime on Bradford and named her to Ellison? That is so far from what I consider mature behavior that you might as well be describing the mindset of an alien to me.

But that has nothing to do with sycophancy or fear of contradicting Harlan Ellison? Just keep telling yourself that, Steve. I hear self-hypnosis can work wonders.

HARLAN ELLISON: It's funny, I can't even be offended or upset by your insults anymore. It's like it's some pro forma thing you do, or the results of a random insult generator. It's like you're not even THERE, really. That thoughtful, considerate guy I spent time with is gone, and in its place is this persona that, whatever its efficacy early on in your career, is dragging down your reputation by the minute. What should have been a celebratory thing--Harlan Ellison publishes a new story!--has been overshadowed by an outdated shtick that is doing you no favors whatsoever. People outside of your cult don't care what you did 40+ years ago, or that you "discovered" Octavia Butler (like Columbus "discovered" America, I gather). They care what you're doing today, and what you're doing today is disgusting them.

On some level, you have to know this? Right?

In any case, it's not my problem anymore. Be happy in your Wonderland. In the eyes of many, though? It's become a Masada.

User avatar
Jim Davis
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:27 am

Postby Jim Davis » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:12 am

Name: Jim Davis
Source: unca20091009.htm
"Turd-gobbler"? And who says Oscar Wilde is dead?

IAIN AITKEN: Wrong again. Rich gave his name at the bottom, which you would know if you had actually read his post.

STEVE: Nice try, but that wasn't what Alan Coil was talking about, and you know it. No one deleted any posts, just like Tempest didn't call HE a sexist or create the mock-cover and no one called for a boycott of Realms. Now, though? Take a gander at what a shitstorm all this has become: http://www.icerocket.com/search?tab=blo ... on&x=0&y=0 Really, if I could imagine a meltdown scenario for HE, calling a blogger of color who specializes in issues of race and s/f an "NWA" (which we all know is cutesy-pie for "nigger") would definitely be one of them.

As for why I bother? Well, since you saw fit to approve the posting of a private message of mine on the Forum, that venue is out, as I will have nothing to do with a board which you moderate. And I can't really see shooting the breeze on here, so I guess only crap like this makes it worth it to post anything these days. But you're right--it is futile to think I'll reach anyone here, so, yeah, this is goodbye. (I'll always remember your whining, though, so that's something!)

I'm also glad to see how, begrudging admission of "validity" aside, you saw fit for the umpteenth time to avoid addressing any of my points. The first one still stands: it's difficult to believe that a board where folks trip all over themselves to hunt for the one-billionth tchotchke for HE's groaning shelves, and where they endlessly debate whether it was a nazi swastika or an aztec swastika or a triskelion or a spindizzy or whathaveyou over Von Braun's door, couldn't generate ONE comment telling HE that he got his facts wrong. And that some folks actually dropped a dime on Bradford and named her to Ellison? That is so far from what I consider mature behavior that you might as well be describing the mindset of an alien to me.

But that has nothing to do with sycophancy or fear of contradicting Harlan Ellison? Just keep telling yourself that, Steve. I hear self-hypnosis can work wonders.

HARLAN ELLISON: It's funny, I can't even be offended or upset by your insults anymore. It's like it's some pro forma thing you do, or the results of a random insult generator. It's like you're not even THERE, really. That thoughtful, considerate guy I spent time with is gone, and in its place is this persona that, whatever its efficacy early on in your career, is dragging down your reputation by the minute. What should have been a celebratory thing--Harlan Ellison publishes a new story!--has been overshadowed by an outdated shtick that is doing you no favors whatsoever. People outside of your cult don't care what you did 40+ years ago, or that you "discovered" Octavia Butler (like Columbus "discovered" America, I gather). They care what you're doing today, and what you're doing today is disgusting them.

On some level, you have to know this? Right?

In any case, it's not my problem anymore. Be happy in your Wonderland. In the eyes of many, though? It's become a Masada.

Alan Coil
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:21 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan

Postby Alan Coil » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:27 am

Name: Alan Coil
Source: unca20091007.htm
"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved."

Alan Coil
Posts: 538
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:21 pm
Location: Southeast Michigan

Postby Alan Coil » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:27 am

Name: Alan Coil
Source: unca20091009.htm
"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved."

maggiehoyal
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:39 pm
Location: Saugerties.N.Y.U.S.A.

ENTERING INTO A SHIT STORM

Postby maggiehoyal » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:32 am

Name: maggie hoyal
Source: unca20091007.htm
speaking of personal asults who the hell is Rich and why should I bemoan his absense from this HARLAN site. HARLAN IS HARLAN. IF YOU DON'T GET HIM, DON'T LIKE HIM, ACOMPLISH SOMETHING TO YOUR OWN CREDIT AND START YOUR OWN RICH SITE. I HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO COMPREHEND PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN OF SOME SORT OF PC SLIGHT BY UPING THE ANTE AND HITTING BACK HARDER AND NASTIER. rich must be very young or very unwise to miss the fact that we are all mortal and will all with any luck experience old age. AS TO HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE USAGE OF THE WORD IN QUESTION, "nigger" NOT MY CUP OF TEA BUT THAT IS JUST ME. one of my top favorite writers is FLANERY O CONNER and she also found it nessacary to incorperate the offending word. I find myself hoping steve barber will remove riches post. I for one found it very offensive. I am not by any means what you would call a delicate flower but to me it just went over the line. Jeff. Get a -----life.

maggiehoyal
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:39 pm
Location: Saugerties.N.Y.U.S.A.

ENTERING INTO A SHIT STORM

Postby maggiehoyal » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:32 am

Name: maggie hoyal
Source: unca20091009.htm
speaking of personal asults who the hell is Rich and why should I bemoan his absense from this HARLAN site. HARLAN IS HARLAN. IF YOU DON'T GET HIM, DON'T LIKE HIM, ACOMPLISH SOMETHING TO YOUR OWN CREDIT AND START YOUR OWN RICH SITE. I HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO COMPREHEND PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN OF SOME SORT OF PC SLIGHT BY UPING THE ANTE AND HITTING BACK HARDER AND NASTIER. rich must be very young or very unwise to miss the fact that we are all mortal and will all with any luck experience old age. AS TO HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE USAGE OF THE WORD IN QUESTION, "nigger" NOT MY CUP OF TEA BUT THAT IS JUST ME. one of my top favorite writers is FLANERY O CONNER and she also found it nessacary to incorperate the offending word. I find myself hoping steve barber will remove riches post. I for one found it very offensive. I am not by any means what you would call a delicate flower but to me it just went over the line. Jeff. Get a -----life.

Sam Waterman

Jim Davis LIES again

Postby Sam Waterman » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:46 am

Name: Sam Waterman
Source: unca20091007.htm
Jim Davis claims nobody could "generate ONE comment telling HE that he got his facts wrong."

FinderDoug
- Thursday, July 23 2009 20:57:31

HARLAN - One brief factual correction to your post, RE the mock REALMS cover: Ms. Bradford didn't cobble it together - certainly posted it and sung its praises, but she gives full credit (and a link back to the original posting) to the commenter to her blog who did create it, named "Charlotte".


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