THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:49 pm

LORI (finally) - Did understand you exactly. Don't know what part of my message indicated otherwise, but never mind.

---

Mainly regarding Rob's third-from last posting, then moving on to newer ones.

To me it's not a question of what is "out of bounds". I simply suggested we limit one liners and pure banter to make discussion easier (and/or able to happen at all in a sense that deserves the name). Rob in particular doesn't seem to understand this. I never said anything was "out of order" - words he is fond of quoting and getting pissed off about. I don't care much about the content of any banter or jokes, I care about their amount in relation to the amount of discussion or expression of real thought. There have been worse times when I said nothing - all I care about is the long term, I really don't care about the one or two more recent examples. The thread could be in better shape and I'd hate it to degenerate. One liners lead to more one liners, while discussion leads to more discussion.

That said (or rather repeated again), I could live without postings in this thread that mainly consist of "tongue-in-cheek banter" like: "We ALL know Frank's nuts, but I've actually TASTED them!" - "Red, put your tongue in my mouth. haha." - "I certainly know more than know it all college boys." (sic)

I don't see how the Annex is "probably the ideal place for that" (Rob).

Not to mention for: "Stick that in your Teutonic tunic!!" Among others.

At such a point, normally, a moderator needs to step in and tell the poster something about comon respect. We have a moderator for this reason.

Apart from having bad manners, Rob somehow thinks he can make the rules here: "I dismiss any of Jan's requests and shall continue to say whatever my protracted adolescence might dictate!"

This is not a parody. He says it and he means it.

"So, whether or not Jan is capable of giving it a rest (or using some logic), the Annex is pretty much serving its namesake."


Why would I not be capable of using logic, unless I was somehow retarded, which is, if I understand correctly, what Rob it intimating.
He's also intimating again that I'm unable to "give it a rest" - how about unwilling to give it a rest? How about I have reasons?

SWP: "I thought this was supposed to be where we got around the one post a day rule on the other side. And no other changes to the basic rules set forth for the ADDP."

Rob: "EXACTLY! ..."

Well, I put the Annex in place with Barber and Rick and explained it in the Pavilion, at the top of the thread, and about a zillion times along the way, including, to a degree, yesterday.

+ Place for overflow from the Pavilion.
+ Place for smaller topics that don't require threads of their own.
+ Place for intelligent conversation in general.
(Against my wishes, I need to put "intelligent" in there because some people have strange notions about what a decent conversation is.)

This thread is for discussion, anything else is extraneous. Doesn't mean "anything else" can't happen, but it shouldn't become so prevalent as to get in the way or take the place of the discussions.

Rob doesn't get to define what the Pavilion Annex is, I'm sorry. Rob can open threads of his own where he can dismiss suggestions and piss on the walls.

THIS is NOT Rob's living room.

---

Later post:

"We don't need anal retentive individual members urging the removal of someone's posts"

Needless to say, I expect an apology from Rob.

"So, LET it be the main dumping ground - for continuing threads in the Pav, OR to toss whatever salad of comments goes IN!"

A typical case of someone unwilling to make slight changes in habit to help improve something.

---

Regarding Rob's last posting, words of Harlan's come to mind:
"I don't care if your parents locked you in the basement. Stop doing it!"

We all have emotions, Rob, and yours excuse bad behavior no more than anybody else's.
You missed your first chance at an apology right away. You talk about how bad you behave and still don't apologize. I find that dispicable.
"Yeah, I acknowledge that." - Is that all? I think Barber deserves an apology. You're wasting his time just like you do mine. "You can step in, as you deem appropriate" - Yeah, so Barber is your BABYSITTER, and everything you do is fine unless he "steps in".
You do not "take shots" here, even if you consider them "shots back". (I never shot at you. I suggested. I gave reasons. I said please.)
We don't do "tit for tat" either, you got that?
There is no excuse for you being such a Neanderthal when you disagree with people.

I have no great desire to talk to you again, Rob, or to read any of your postings, with the exception of the forthcoming one containing the apology.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:36 pm

"THIS is NOT Rob's living room."

Nor is it yours, Jan. That was the point I felt YOU needed originally, which is the reason I went ON about it.

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:36 pm

Nice try. I have dealt with your misinterpretation of my intentions and my role here in my previous posting.

It was only a small matter, a small favor I asked. Reasonable enough and nothing too difficult about it that I can see.

But like I already said, have it your way - what else can you want?

That doesn't go for the apologies you owe, naturally.

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:50 pm

Well...whatever.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:07 pm

*Ahem*

Okay. Both of you. Retreat to corners and back off.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

Richard Keeney
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Richard Keeney » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:25 pm

SB,

My two cents: The Annex is not brokern. haha

I've understood that the boards are for the long-winded. I've lately learned that there are posted rules of decorum here as well. Too, I post my email address because that's the place where the flaming can happen. If you want to start a pissing match, step into the velvet. rick_keeney@yahoo.com No audience needed.

One post a day in the Pavilion, behaving as if you were in Harlan's home. Blather 'til you burst on the boards, with certain rules for well-mannered behavior. And email me the poop you'd like to see on my shoes.

peace,
Rick
"It would be interesting to know what it is men are most afraid of. Taking a new step, uttering a new word is what they fear most."
--F. Dostoievsky, from CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:15 pm

The Pavvy Annex has always been a good place to take discussion of items from the Pav (like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict) into a forum where they can be hashed out in more detail -- finally to the point of developing a separate thread for said discussion(s).

I tend to agree with Jan that one-liners intended as conversation stoppers are annoying, but I've been guilty as charged myself.

I see it as a way to banter back with the boys in a way that counters the pork-swording on the Pavvy.

For example: the one post a day rule ruled out my responding to Josh Olsen's defense of James Cameron's "Titanic" script's dialogue. I'm sorry, but it *is* anachronistic.

I based my opinion from reading porno of the time, as well as earlier works: The Pearl, Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure, etc.

Josh dismissed me with a "less-well educated people will think that the language lacks veracity" or some such. I don't remember what he typed verbatim, which is a disfavor to him.

I have no beef with Josh, I respect him tremendously, wouldn't want to e-mail him privately to discuss this minor item, but, would like a place where I can bring my argument and disagree publicly.

Then it could be discussed -- or not. But at least I'd feel that I got my two cents in, which counts for a lot in feeling that I'm part of a community and not just an outsider leaving post-it notes on a flagpole on a windy day.

I'm overly medicated (been going through some really, really hairy rough times mentally) so I'm not sure if this makes sense.
Oh well, it's my post-it note, so I'll leave it to Lori to translate for me! :wink:
I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi Knight, the same as my Father.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:11 am

R. Keeney: "My two cents: The Annex is not brokern. haha"

There now, you see? A little levity and nobody notices the corpses I bury in the backyard! That's all it takes.

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:59 am

Moderator:

You need to see to it that people can come here without being insulted or are at least protected when it happens.

The original reason of this discussion was nothing all too important, so I've let that go, but common respect is something essential in a moderated forum and especially in the Annex which is connected by direct link to the Pavilion - to Harlan Ellison - at my request. So it matters to me what happens here and how people talk to each other. It was not meant to be the wild west. If that's what it becomes, we must remove the link in the Pavilion.

Rob has shown me (and several others, including people in the Pavilion) considerable lack of respect several times in the course of a year or two.

And it will happen again. Rob told you: "But if I interpret someone as being a wise-ass with me, it's tit-for-tat as far as I'm concerned." No response from you.

I can simply not come to the forum if it's not "safe", and if discussions aren't fair. (Does this seem fair to you? - "We don't need anal retentive individual members urging the removal of someone's posts because HE thinks it doesn't belong.")

Him saying he "shall continue to say whatever my protracted adolescence might dictate!" That, too, requires a response from the moderator, especially because I'm not seen as having anything to say here. (I've no reason to think you see it the same way, but just so there are no ambiguities, I officially give up the honorary advisory function in this thread, which seems to mean nothing and is not backed up by you.)

I have seen enough, but I'd still like to witness, this time, a proper resolution that gives me some hope, before I retreat (forever) into saner areas.

--

Gwyn: For the record, I don't feel anybody (with one exception) was "guilty" of something as far as "one-liners" are concerned. That kind of vocabulary was introduced into the discussion after me. What I asked of people since the beginning was for practical reasons, and the only laws involved would have been those dictated by common sense, goodwill and taste. I've enjoyed a little banter here from time to time. I think people do keep off-topic and pure joke-y posts to a comfortable minimum in the Annex; even Frank promised us to be considerate. If everyone was feeling about the Annex the way Rob does, I think it would be almost a complete mess. It's certainly more vulnerable to becoming a mess than threads with fixed topics.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:07 am

Jan, you can be mean as well. Ezra has been very vicious as of late. We all have our moments.

We all need to remember that we're all mostly pretty cool. Better that we hang out, slap high fives. Aggravation is a waste of time.

Richard Keeney
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Richard Keeney » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:54 am

Honest-to-Zeus!

After all this exposure to his vitriol, Harlan hasn't helped ya'll thicken yer hides?

There's lotsa things one can do for oneself to thicken one's epidermal layer: (Reading and conversing with the man is not the least of these.) Wear emery cloth underwear, gargle with piranhas, shave with a blowtorch, whatever it takes. Sometimes, when the b.s. gets too thick here, I send Barber a bitchy email-ostensibly, to thicken HIS hide- and then I just GO AWAY for awhile.

There's indeed some serious bullshit goes on here; makes me manic as a revolving door--in-or-out-in-or-out-in-or-out. Trick, it seems to me, is to recognize the odor and move upwind. We don't have to stand in it.

only APPEARING to be holier-than-thou,
Rick
"It would be interesting to know what it is men are most afraid of. Taking a new step, uttering a new word is what they fear most."

--F. Dostoievsky, from CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:41 am

Richard Keeney wrote:Sometimes, when the b.s. gets too thick here, I send Barber a bitchy email-ostensibly, to thicken HIS hide- and then I just GO AWAY for awhile.


Oh, so that's the reason!!! :wink:

My hide is actually pretty thick, but sometimes it's more expediant to play the injured party than it is to try and reason with people.

Richard Keeney wrote:There's indeed some serious bullshit goes on here; makes me manic as a revolving door--in-or-out-in-or-out-in-or-out.


But, to give our devils their due, our bullshit level and dissonance are a fraction of what a lot of boards experience. In a way it does seem to restrict the participation -- for some reason we're not as active as we were before the moderation started, but that's kind of a trade off. Once we became moderated, several frequent posters were either banned or disappeared on their own. We've got some great new voices which might have been previously drowned out, but also more restricted participation.

But again, our "bullshit" is kept to a relative minimum and everyone who posts here is an above-board intelligent sort who listen to reason. At least after I smack them over the head behind the scenes...
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:43 am

One of the main reasons Harlan likes me. I have a strong hide.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:03 pm

Ya know gang, the only person anyone has total control over is themselves.

Rick and I have the same strategy for dealing with this place when it gets to be too much, and you'd be surprised how well it works. I don't have to worry about insulting people because of a bad attitude, and the rest of ya all get your chance to do as you please. Win, Win in my book.

I've never written a Bitchy message to Barber, but there have been a few times I have let him know how I'm feeling. And I trust him to deal with it in the correct manner. And sometimes that manner has been to tell me to calm down. He's doing the best job he can given the fact that he leads a full life without this place getting in the way. Short of finding someone like me, who has plenty of time on their hands, and not much to do with it, what else are we going to do for moderation?

And before any wise ass suggests I take the job.... I'm not willing to go there :D

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Jan
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Jan » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:36 pm

Frank, if you see something that looks mean, indicate it to moderator next time.
The whole laissez faire and we're-all-like-Rob attitude of some of you is wrong. This place is moderated and the aim should be that there is absolutely no meanness.
People like Lori and Rick or me should not have to go away or think about it because of bullies. They are 100% right to be here, the bullies and liars should get a handle on themselves or be banned. They are 100% wrong.
If Barber needs help, it's about time he said so.
We don't need a comparison with other boards. All I see at the moment is room for improvement. This is Harlan-space, and I don't care how much better it is than the Dolph Lundgren fan board. It's supposed to be better and has every chance of being better.
If the same people show lack of respect and taste again and again, whatever the moderator did the time before *didn't work*.

I'm not of the opinion that it takes an inordinate amount of time to moderate properly in a rude-behavior situation. The moderator has power to do what needs to be done with two or three appropriate sentences, wheras it takes everyone else a long time to deal with bad behavior, which isn't their job. When I have to point out misbehavior to people on my own, without back-up, it sometimes only makes things worse and leaves the moderator with a bigger problem.


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