THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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diane bartels
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby diane bartels » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:22 am

Happy Birthday Steve Barber. Hope you have a great day!

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markabaddon
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:27 am

Here is some more details on the exchange with my Neo Con friend that I described in the Pav:

We danced around the subject at first, then I finally asked what his purpose was in sending that email. He said that I stated that the ADL would be the authority on blood libel and they said it could be used in a broader context, and that they "wished she would have chosen a different phrase" but did not condemn. My reply was that pretty mcu all other Jewish groups condemned the use of the phrase, as well as many rabbis. Then he stated that the term originated in the 2nd or 3rd century and was used against Christians . When I countered that, how about the use of the n-word, there is a word that has taken on a broader context, would you care to use that term? He said that he would not approve of it, but danced around whether or not it was appropriate

Regardless, I said that the phrase had, for well over one thousand years, been used as a specific term to describe actions against Jews, that the phrase was never used in a broader context. I asserted that Palin could easily make a statement saying that she believes she was unfairly accused of inciting violence (I disagree but at least that point is debatable), but that she apologizes for the use of that term with all of its historical context. Neo-con continued to say that it was valid and appropriate to use.

I then called him an anti-semite, and brought up another case from a couple of years ago. A Jewish couple sued a county in Delaware over their use of a Christmas show in school. The couple was threatened, and Neo-con said at that time that it was OK, as long as no one committed violence. He then backed up that belief when I said it today by stating. "well it depends on the kind of threat..."

Finally, I asked him to talk more about his belief that private companies have the right to deny patronage to any groups they choose. He said that if a restaurant wants to say no blacks, no Jew, or no gays then they have the right to do so. He said that he would not patronize such places but that businesses had that choice. I asked if whites only counters were permissible and he said yes.

At that point I said "we're done." He asked what does that mean, and I said we should not talk for a long while, then we both hung up.

Wish I could say I feel good about this, but I feel sick. Neo con has probably been one of my closest male friends for over 15 years, but he is moving so far to the right in his political ideology that it really scares me. When you start espousing beliefs that would deny my kids access to wherever they want to shop or eat (and since he wants to privatize everything, there are even greater implications, such as Fire or Police services being denied), that is not someone with whom I can associate on a regular basis.

Barber, I really hope that you do not have an encounter with Neo Con Jim like this at some point in the future.
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:41 pm

Spankin machine for Barber, spankin machine for Barber!! Whoop that butt, whoop that butt!

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:33 pm

Birthday? I was just on FB and and must have missed the anouncement (or was there intentionally no anouncement? Women are the only sensitive ones. . .)

Mark, I've also got a neo-con friend. He was probably my closest friend throughout university, but never saw him again after he moved back to Mississippi. There are times I still miss him. I see him on Facebook every so often, and learned that he's since joined not one but two Rush Limbaugh fanclubs, which means he must sees the world very differently from how I do. I knew him at the hight of my political radicalism, and when I think of some of the Marxist rants I threw at him, I can only imagine how he remembers me. I really don't want to know, and dread the day when we might discuss politics.

(Then again, discussing anything at all might be nice. . .)

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markabaddon
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby markabaddon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Mr. Evil, I only go on Facebook maybe once a week, so I have no diea if it was posted there or if Barber deliberately left it off his info (as an aside are we connected on Facebook?)

As for my friend, there ain't no easy answers. He has been a great friend to me and to follow up on Steve Perry's point in the Pav, I do think he would help me in any way he could, as his past behavior clearly shows. It ain't totally fair, but I keep thinking back to the Germans during the Nazi regime. Many Germans had Jewish friends and when asked after the war how they could allow to be committed, the common response was that the Jews they knew were good people but it was "the others" that were a problem. I have this nagging feeling in the back of my head that something similar may be playing out with my friend

Even if we were to stay away from political discussion, I think it would still be difficult to be friends with him knowing that he thinks it would be OK for a storeowner to tell me, no Jews allowed in this place, get out.
Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristrocratic forms. No gov't in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, gov't tends more and mroe to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:02 pm

Mark -

That really CAN be a pain-in-the-ass!

Won't surprise anyone here to know I had a similar experience as well, with a friend of more than 10 years. In our case, it was also because of our egos.

Your own clash reminds me of the story between Henry Fonda and Jimmy Stewart, who were close pals for years, but politically opposite. In their younger years, so the story goes, they even had a fist fight over politics (Fonda reportedly won!).

Thereafter, they avoided the subject entirely in order to keep their friendship intact.

If this friend is important enough to you, maybe the answer lies in the Fonda/Stewart solution: send him an email explaining your friendship is more important to you, and if he feels likewise, agree to avoid the subject of politics all together. If he disses that option, then you're right: loyalty is hard to come by.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby RocRizzo » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:35 pm

Happy B-day Barber. May you have many more healthy, happy and prosperous ones ahead.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:43 pm

I wonder how drunk he is by now? lol.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:45 pm

He's stabbin his birthday cake: "Fuckin Frank, Goddamn fuckin ass, skank ass Frankkk!"

Cris, serenade this man, we love him so. We really do adore him.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:11 pm

Mark, that is a tough position to be in. I have a cousin who is way out there, politically. Waayyyy out there. He's going through some tough times right now, and I've tried to reach him, including through the mail, but not a peep. I don't know what I'd do if he started spouting off like you neocon friend did. Generally, we've kept away from major political discussions in the past, but I don't know if he'd do that now.

I think Rob came up with the best suggestion. If he agrees to steer clear of politics, then maybe the friendship can be salvaged. If not, well you tried. Best of luck working this thing out. It can feel strange and rather lonely when someone close talks like an enemy.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:25 pm

Steve B Happy Birthday!

The big FIVE-OH huh? That was me last year. THis one didn't bother me that much. 40 gave me pause. I keep wondering when I turn into Ward Cleaver? Where are my pipe and slippers?

June? June?



Mark, I draw the line when ideas start hurting people. Explain to your friend that he's hurting YOU and he's driving YOU away.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:06 am

First, thanks guys! It was indeed a very nice birthday. No stabbing of cakes, and I was serenaded by my lovely wife (and friends), though at a relatively quiet level considering the restaurant's close quarters. 50 isn't bothering me too much, I agree 40 was a much bigger transition. Fifty just feels right. Got a call from the man. He steadfastly refused to sing the birthday song to me, but DID remind me that he was a middling man of fifty when he met Ms Susan. So life can begin at 50 and that's the way I'm choosing to see it. Cris, on the other hand, turns the big 5-0 in a few months and is already having palpitations. We may begin counting backwards. (Frank, though the cake was heavily maimed it did survive the evening. Well...parts of it did.)

BTW - No announcement was made on FB. Apparently the service automatically notifies people of impendi...er, upcoming birthdays and anniversaries.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Mark -- We've corresponded on this, but a couple more thoughts.

As I noted, he obviously feels the rights of the businessman trump those of the individual. You feel sick about it because you still care for him as a friend, but it was his own words and actions which foundered the friendship, not yours. As I noted, I cannot fathom this sort of thinking. NeoCon Jim and I nearly ended our friendship over Prop 8, but it is now stronger than ever. We still disagree, but know that there are certain topics which do drop to such a visceral level that they cannot end but badly. So we avoid them and respect our differences.

In the case of your friend, if you ever have the opportunity, perhaps it's a barrier you too should put up. He will likely not again be as close, given that the trust is damaged (he doesn't appear to "have your back", IMHO), but you can still enjoy the company and certain conversations. Once this cools down -- and if he reaches out -- you might consider a "diminished" friendship.

But, to be brutally honest, if he does not it seems that you have lost an emotional attachment, not a true friend.
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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:16 pm

Barber, bring me Neo-con Jim!

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:55 pm

Sounds like we've all got our own Neo-con Jim. The scary thing is they probably go 'round to all their neo-con friends and talk in exasperated tones about their "liberal Steve"s.

markabaddon wrote:(as an aside are we connected on Facebook?)


I don't think so. I'll you up through one of the other weblanders. . .

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:23 am

Chuck Messer wrote:
I think Rob came up with the best suggestion. If he agrees to steer clear of politics, then maybe the friendship can be salvaged. If not, well you tried. Best of luck working this thing out. It can feel strange and rather lonely when someone close talks like an enemy.

Chuck


May I ask a question? Could you be friends with someone once you found out they were homophobic?

To my mind that's kinda the situation Mark is looking at. Granted, it took his friend a good long while to show his spots, but he did. You can't draw the curtain on this, and ignore it. Most humans would let it color every interaction with this person, and that can be very tiring to say the least.

Mark made a very good decision IMO. Hell I've lost friends over the way they talk about blacks, and I'm almost albino white myself.


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