THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:19 am

Lori Koonce wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:According to the research Moore did for Bowling for Colombine, Canada has twice as many guns as the US do.


Not quite. Gun ownership is legal, but almost entirely confined to rural areas. Gun ownership in the cities is almost unknown. There is strict control over the types of guns bought and sold. Farmers and ranchers tend to own hunting rifles and shot-guns; concealed handguns are illegal. Almost no one owns automatic weapons.

This idea that citizens have a right to own grendade launchers and gattling guns does not pervade the public. It is thought to be quite bizzarre in fact. Large scale demonstrations are by large held without the use of guns.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:36 am

Canada came to grips long ago with the reality that white folk ain't fightin' injuns no more n' there ain't no more frontier!

Having perverted the practical concept of individualism, and treating guns like a religion as we're weened on myth, a good proportion of American society is culturally inbred!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:10 am

Steve Evil wrote:
Lori Koonce wrote:
FrankChurch wrote:According to the research Moore did for Bowling for Colombine, Canada has twice as many guns as the US do.


Not quite. Gun ownership is legal, but almost entirely confined to rural areas. Gun ownership in the cities is almost unknown. There is strict control over the types of guns bought and sold. Farmers and ranchers tend to own hunting rifles and shot-guns; concealed handguns are illegal. Almost no one owns automatic weapons.

This idea that citizens have a right to own grendade launchers and gattling guns does not pervade the public. It is thought to be quite bizzarre in fact. Large scale demonstrations are by large held without the use of guns.


(First, let me correct the statstic -- Canada has twice as many per capita. Sorry, that's been bugging me.)

I'm curious what the impact of television programs such as Flashpoint -- Canadian made with identifiable Canadian locations -- will have on the population's perceptions of privately held guns.

(I do agree with the suggestion that it's the American mentality rather than simple possession of a gun which is the dilemma.)
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:32 pm

But as Michael Moore showed Germany, France, Britain, all have histories of violence that rivals us, but they have lessened violence and strict control of guns.

Obviously we have urban issues they don't have. Poverty that creates this system of anger and violence. The drug war is the flashpoint.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Douglas Harrison » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:59 pm

Gotta chime in here. Sorry, Lori, but I don't believe Canada has higher per-capita gun ownership than the U.S. I refer you to this Reuters article, which cites the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies: http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/ ... 3820070828. According to that survey, no other country comes close to the U.S.

Also, I can't speak to the precise requirements for obtaining a PAL (Possession and Acquisition Licence) in Canada--I've never applied for one--but I question whether actual affidavits from spouses and ex-spouses are required. However, there are multiple background checks and "eligibility screening over the term of the licence:" http://pub.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fact ... ex-eng.htm.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:09 pm

*cheeks flushed crimson and a look of contrition on face*

Oh alright all ready! I may have gotten the statistics wrong, I've never been good with numbers.

But, as others have said, the Canadian attitude towards guns and the violence they bring cannot be denied.

BTW, you ever try to discuss with a gun nut what the actual second admendment says. As I read it militias were the only thing that the government choose not to regulate. Meaning that the right of your average Jo(e) Blow to own a gun is totally able to be regulated by the federal government.

The longer I remain a citizen the more I realize that gun violence is becoming a part of the national fabric. And while life itself is violent, this scares me.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Douglas Harrison » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:31 pm

Barber wrote:I'm curious what the impact of television programs such as Flashpoint -- Canadian made with identifiable Canadian locations -- will have on the population's perceptions of privately held guns.


I don't think those programs will have much effect. For years we have watched pretty much the same TV shows as Americans and, despite the locales, have embraced the stories and characters in much the same way you do. There is significant cultural overlap. (And I say this as someone who regularly travels to the U.S. for work.)

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:52 pm

Douglas, so it's the Canadians who are taking all of our jobs.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:33 pm

Listen, you can't take a man's gun from him and STILL call him a man!

That's like trying to turn Sherman into Shirley!

And if that IS a guy's attitude, then you HAVE take his gun from him!

The attitude: the European attitude, overall, is minimizing access to guns, PERIOD! It works fine for THEM. Canada apparently bans handguns, as I understand. That works for THEM. We have guns ALL over the damn place - enough to outarm the cops sometimes - and this is what we perceive as the norm! We can't even SEE the insanity of it.

What I'm saying is, the attitude and the degree of accessibility are the constructs of environment; our mores are a product of environment. It is not enough, then, to attribute the problem here as simply "our attitude". Attitude and perceptions are shaped by environment.

It's still one of my favorite lines: "if you give a chimp a gun and he shoots someone, you don't blame the chimp!"

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Douglas Harrison » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:40 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:But, as others have said, the Canadian attitude towards guns and the violence they bring cannot be denied.

I think the difference in attitude has to do with the notion of the need for self-defence, which is fueled partly by the actual proliferation of handguns and partly by the sensationalization of crime. There are those in Canada who like to use public safety as a political weapon and who actively propagate a fear of one's fellow citizens, but it's harder to make the case for immediate threat (from guns, at least) in a country where the possession of handguns is so rare. Handgun ownership here remains a kind of Pandora's box. (I say "kind of" because you can still acquire a handgun if you jump through enough hoops.)

D.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Douglas Harrison » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:44 pm

robochrist wrote:What I'm saying is, the attitude and the degree of accessibility are the constructs of environment; our mores are a product of environment. It is not enough, then, to attribute the problem here as simply "our attitude". Attitude and perceptions are shaped by environment.

I completely agree.

D.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:58 pm

The fabric of American society grew from a broad cross-section of cultures, many of which stood independently of one another.

I caught a great documentary on the History Channel, GUNRUNNERS, BOOTLEGGERS, AND MOONSHINERS.

The show woke me up to the stem of gun-toting anti-government paranoid sentiments that go back to the birth of the Republic.

The early moonshiners survived selling alcohol. Federal agents were attacked when they came around to collect the tax, sometimes tarred and feathered. In 1794, when several hundred angry citizens took over the city Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, President George Washington called for a gathering of militiamen under federal authority. Thirteen-thousand troops dispersed the mob and captured its leaders. This Whisky Rebellion was the first major test of federal authority for the young government, but the moonshiners a many relocated into the hills to continue business unseen. Come after'em and they'd blow ya away!

This mentality remains a solid part of the American bedrock. Putting it another way, the hillbillies run the country! Again, environment breeds attitude. You cannot argue one at the exclusion of the other if we're to see the whole picture.

From fighting Indians to running with the KKK in the postbellum, the perception of "individualism" here was, by-and-large, shaped by the uneducated portions of our population who lived by the justification of greed, killing, hording land, and "fighting the Feds".

With a complex and disjointed backdrop like this, I see little hope soon for sane and erudite America. I would contend it's a legacy even stronger than the Constitution (after all, it's these crowds who continually misquote or distort the Amendments and the Bill of Rights, with listeners equally clueless!).

It really makes the whole damn thing a hopeless mess!

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:48 pm

I wipe my genitals on the fabric of American society.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:06 pm

While your are showing adolescent contempt for America, just remember that this is one of the few places on the planet where you don't have to worry about jail, harm or death for saying what you feel.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby RocRizzo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:35 pm

Lori Koonce wrote:While your are showing adolescent contempt for America, just remember that this is one of the few places on the planet where you don't have to worry about jail, harm or death for saying what you feel.


Tell that to the gay guy who was beaten up in a bar, then got dragged behind a truck in Texas a couple of years ago.
Tell that to the kid's parents, whose kid got shot, because some cop thought his gun was his taser in SF a couple of years ago.
Tell that to the parents of the gay kid who was bullied so much that he committed suicide.
Tell that to the people who went to see Congresswoman Giffords in Arizona last month.
Those are just some examples that I can think of off the top of my head.

Sorry Lori, we all have to worry about jail, harm and even death if we say what we feel. ESPECIALLY if our skin pigmentation isn't lily white.
How many times have you seen someone getting pulled over by the police because they are engaging in the dreaded "crime" of driving while black? Really... Think about it.
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