THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:32 pm

Mubarak has resigned, thank god. I could see the makings of a real massacre in Egypt if he didn't. Now let's hope for the best for the people who really put it on the line to make this happen. They deserve it. They earned it.

Chuck
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:09 pm

But what will replace Mubarak?

It's a vital start, but bloodshed may STILL await the Egyptian people when they face the question of whether the figurehead will be some clone of Mubarak. After all, the system itself hasn't changed, and the public has a real uphill battle ahead (I suspect).

We've seen it too many times, wherever the U.S. stupidly, greedily, and hypocritically supported dictators out of its own interests (mostly corporate) at the expense of the people and perpetuated widespread poverty in that particular nation.

I DO, however, commend the Egyptian crowds for brilliantly maintaining MOSTLY peaceful demonstrations and the military keeping itself in synch with the hearts of the people. I think at this juncture that is the most important aspect of this outcome, showing the world how solidarity CAN oust a corrupt leader with minimal bloodshed.

Now the hard work in Egypt for the LONG-RUN begins!

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:23 pm

True enough. The outcome can still turn out worse than Egypt under Mubarak.

Chuck
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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:21 am

It seems most are taking it for granted that Egypt will end up worse off than before (I was even told it was arrogant to assume there could be democracy in Egypt). Some experts though seem a trifle more optimistic:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 13292.html

And let us never forget what the people themselves have to say:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 12487.html

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:10 pm

I like to think of the fall of Pinochet in Chile and Jaruzelski in Poland, both of which were bloodless (or at least relatively bloodless) coups that did result in a more democratic nation. Here's hoping Egypt can do the same.

Chuck
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:57 pm

I agree, Chuck. I also have noted the so-called bloodless revolutions in Ukraine and the former Czechoslovakia.

We can hope.
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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:28 pm

Bloody or not the revolution was televised. This is one moment where maybe Neil Postman got it wrong.

-------------

Evil Steven, Al Jazeera has had on the real experts, while our media has had on people like Robin Wright and Thomas Friedman. What do white people know about the middle east? A real expert should have some sympathy with the people and culture.

Robert Fisk is one exception.

----------

Susan was giving Harlan a goofy look in that video.

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Steve Evil
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:35 pm

Your media maybe: I quoted British sources, including Fisk. The "experts" (I don't know what their qualifications are) quoted therin seemed optimistic to the point of naivete. I trust you did read them?

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:53 pm

Is it better to write "had never forgiven" or "never forgave"? I hate grammar. . .

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:13 pm

Hey Frank

You can't even put together a CV about your own political activities. What makes you qualified to determine if someone else is an expert?

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:04 pm

What's the expression when some animal flees its captivity? "The _________ has flown"? Or "the ______________ has bolted." The horse? THe eage, the swallow? I can't remember. My synapses aren't connecting.

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:59 pm

I've always heard "The pigeon has flown the coop" and "The horse has bolted the barn".
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:20 pm

Hi, guys and gals, sorry I've been away so long. As my homegrrl Lori put it: sometimes she gets the bear, sometimes the bear gets her. Or somesuch. :)

Frank, there's a good article by Tariq Ramadan I think you should read: http://www.tariqramadan.com/Emotions-et-Lucidite.html

He makes the point that while the people did a great and historical thing in forcing Mubarak to step down, the entrenched bureaucracy is still in place. He calls for vigilance, lucidity and courage from the Egyptian people and, I think, by extension by the world. We all need to work together to ensure that this fledgling democracy takes flight. There are still many things that can go wrong. Washington is as muddle-headed as possible on the subject and I think Obama has shown remarkably poor leadership.

I think Rob made a very good point in his post about the moonshiners and the historical tension between the "free" Americans, whom I would classify as being more on the Libertarian side of things, and the power of a centralized government. I posit that we extrapolate that to the Egyptian situation: the young bloggers and Tweeters who spearheaded this revolution managed to do in 18 days what the Muslim Brotherhood hadn't been able to achieve in 80 years. (And yes, I *do* know that Ramadan's grandfather founded the Brotherhood.) I've been watching Al Jazeera via the web, and I've seen Coptic Christians and Muslims guarding each other at prayers during the conflict. I've seen and heard the testimony of neighborhoods coming together to stop looters. Women in and out of hijaab took part in the demonstrations (that means some gals were wearing scarves, some not). The youth is all about freedom. As one young woman put it during an interview from Tahrir Square, "Let them (the Muslim Brotherhood) come to the elections -- they would get about 10% of the vote."

Egypt has always had a strong centralized government dictating to the people. That is why it is so vitally important to remain vigilant, like the moonshiners, to the tendency of the old octopus' tentacles wrapping themselves back around the society. Most of the political apparatchiki remain in place. The prisons have yet to be opened (at least to my knowledge). Political prisoners need to be freed, those who tortured them must be brought to justice. The economy must be kept moving and bread provided to the people, most of whom struck, not out of political outrage, but out of years of social repression and economic depression.

About Egypt becoming like Iran - although anything is possible, the two revolutions are dissimilar: Iran's was led by the religious right protesting the social and political injustice of the Shah's reign; Egypt's was led by young bloggers and Tweeters who mobilized the masses protesting primarily *economic* injustice. It's a layer cake: at the top were the political protesters, supporting them were the common and poor people. (Nick Kristoff of the NYT did a great op ed on this, I can't find it now but check it out.) In the former case, the implementation of Shari'a law was a goal of the revolution; in Egypt's case it's economic parity and the right of citizens to freely express themselves without being thrown into jail to be tortured and killed.

Oh well, my 2 cents on Egypt. That and $1.48 will get you a "short" coffee at Starbucks, (they don't advertise their smallest beverage) which is planning to introduce a new size ...
"Dillon Sorenson writes for Culture Map, "Currently, Starbucks offers three sizes: Tall (354 mL), Grande (473 mL), and Venti (591 mL). And beginning May 3rd, you will be able to get your beverage of choice in a new 916 mL Trenta size. How big is 916 mL, you ask? Well, an average bottle of wine is 750 mL, and the average capacity of the human stomach is 900 mL."

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:51 pm

How big is 916 mL, you ask? Well, an average bottle of wine is 750 mL, and the average capacity of the human stomach is 900 mL."


Yikes! A piping-hot diuretic firehose!

Chuck
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Gwyneth M905 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:10 pm

Chuck Messer wrote:
How big is 916 mL, you ask? Well, an average bottle of wine is 750 mL, and the average capacity of the human stomach is 900 mL."


Yikes! A piping-hot diuretic firehose!

Chuck


mind...trying...to...block...image...daisies...girls in white dresses with blue satin sashes...snowflakes...whiskers on kittens...milk...coffee...oh $#*!

Yup, Chuck, I imagine that'll get a lot of people unplugged in the a.m. And wired as well. Starbucks' new slogan: Unplug and get Wired with the new Trenta--more coffee than you should consume in four days at one sitting! :twisted:
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