THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:03 pm

one might say more along the lines of:
http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html
hokey smokes comin' up on 7 bil. :shock:
follow your bliss,mike

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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Moderator » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:07 pm

Ezra Lb. wrote:You fellows are just joshing but you know we really do live in two countries.


I'm not joshing. I don't like the country some would have us living in.
- I love to find adventure. All I need is a change of clothes, my Nikon, an open mind and a strong cup of coffee.

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:08 am

Ezra,
i suppose there are many distinctions and any number of divisions one may note in the U.S.population ; which two did you have in mind?

Steve B.
i've been a fan of decentralization in many things for many years.
political power not being the least of them.
i wonder if the 10th ammendment might get more of a workout in times to come (as i alluded to in the past), rather than secession movements.

some articles you may all enjoy:
(if i had to choose my fav.)
"California Split"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/10/opini ... ovitz.html
" Few Americans realize just how huge this nation is. Germany could fit within the borders of Montana. France is smaller than Texas. Leaving aside three nations with large, unpopulated land masses (Russia, Canada and Australia), the United States is geographically larger than all the other advanced industrial countries taken together. Critically, the American population, now roughly 300 million, is projected to reach more than 400 million by the middle of this century. A high Census Bureau estimate suggests it could reach 1.2 billion by 2100. "

"If at first you don't secede"
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature ... index.html
(you may have already enjoyed these last two steve, if not their seed or fruit)

"Long live secession!"
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature ... index.html
follow your bliss,mike

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:42 am

...i suppose there are many distinctions and any number of divisions one may note in the U.S.population ; which two did you have in mind?

Well I agree that the red state/blue state thing is a bit simplistic. I was referring more to polls that show almost a fifty/fifty split on various issues. However I think you can see a definite cultural dichotomy between rural areas and urban centers and the coasts and the "heartland".
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:16 am

Ez,
"definite cultural dichotomy between rural areas and urban centers and the coasts and the "heartland"."
yep. at least i accept that as the case. (i think that scene is mentioned in one of the links above)

during what i recall as the first exchange on the secession issue, did you refer to what a good portion of the 3rd link above delt with ; (i paraphrase) "that issue was decided 130 years ago" ? (the civil war)

from the 2nd link above, this struck a chord with me;

" Ironically, the Stranger suggests that this means adopting a right-wing attitude toward taxes and social welfare. "To red-state voters, to the rural voters, residents of small, dying towns, and soulless sprawling exburbs, we say this: Fuck off. Your issues are no longer our issues. We're going to battle our bleeding-heart instincts and ignore pangs of misplaced empathy. We will no longer concern ourselves with a health-care crisis that disproportionately impacts rural areas. Instead we will work toward winning health care one blue state at a time." "
" Some liberals warn against giving in to this kind of thinking. "We're talking about tax dollars going to the very people who are in need," says Peter Cannavo, an assistant professor of government at Hamilton College who specializes in environmental politics. "You're talking about withdrawing tax dollars from the red states and punishing people, punishing people who do not deserve to be the target of this wrath. It's just a way of collectively venting and taking on a gated community mentality. One has to strive for more than that." "
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:31 am

No, you could divide Northern California and southern Oregon, make them one lefty state. Southern Cali would have to be a GOP bastion. Sorry Barber. You either move or buy a bunch of brown shirts.

Texas could be two states.

Minnesota would be split. Deluth deserves what it gets.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:09 pm

I won't comment, but look at this and cringe.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/146651/Expan ... cerns.aspx

I feel like punching someone.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:45 pm

I hate to tell Harlan's friend, the libertarian, but libertarianism comes from the enlightenment--you all know this--to be an actual libertarian you have to be on the left. Without economic justice there is zero freedom. A poor person does not have the same freedom as rich people, that's just how it is. From the police to getting a good seat in a restaurant. Socialism is the only way to even the playing field. Economic stress kicks the ladder from under people, while the rich are on top.

Be back.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:52 pm

I thought Harlan was a man of the left? I am on the left.

To be fair to him, he has opted out politically for quite a few years. But I hate to tell Harlan, but we are more alike then he would like to admit.

I mean, the guy reads the Week for his news. hehe.

I do want to debate his friend.

He argues politics with his friend, but avoids it here. Scratches his head. Harlan is one odd duck.

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:59 am

FrankChurch wrote:I hate to tell Harlan's friend, the libertarian, but libertarianism comes from the enlightenment--you all know this--to be an actual libertarian you have to be on the left. Without economic justice there is zero freedom. A poor person does not have the same freedom as rich people, that's just how it is. From the police to getting a good seat in a restaurant. Socialism is the only way to even the playing field. Economic stress kicks the ladder from under people, while the rich are on top.

Be back.



Except modern Libertarianism has been largely influenced (if not taken over) by the Ayn Rand faction, which is about as useless to the Left as anything since Stalinism. The kind of Libertarianism you're talking about came about hand-in-glove with the original Liberal movements, which were all about free trade and markets, which has been hi-jacked by the Right. Time turns everything into its opposite.

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:29 am

FrankChurch wrote:I thought Harlan was a man of the left? I am on the left.

To be fair to him, he has opted out politically for quite a few years. But I hate to tell Harlan, but we are more alike then he would like to admit.

I mean, the guy reads the Week for his news. hehe.

I do want to debate his friend.

He argues politics with his friend, but avoids it here. Scratches his head. Harlan is one odd duck.


Frank the truth is, you are an idealogue and a fanatic and HE is not. HE has his bag of truths but you have THE TRUTH. That makes all the difference.

Mark wrote

Time turns everything into its opposite.

And one can start out as a liberal and in twenty years be considered a conservative without changing a single idea.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Chuck Messer
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Chuck Messer » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:57 am

Read some of Eisenhower's speeches. There was one where he complained that the cost of one B-52 bomber could pay for several public schools. He'd be condemned as a flaming left-leaning liberal by the so-called conservatives today.

Chuck
Some people are wedded to their ideology the way nuns are wed to God.

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:41 am

Mark Tiedemann wrote: Except modern Libertarianism has been largely influenced (if not taken over) by the Ayn Rand faction, which is about as useless to the Left as anything since Stalinism. The kind of Libertarianism you're talking about came about hand-in-glove with the original Liberal movements, which were all about free trade and markets, ...

"which were all about free trade and markets"
and individual liberty.
which is largely what Objectivism and Rand are/were about.
anti-communist
anti-fascist
limited government

which is apparently what ellison's libertarian friend is about (a (small "o")objectivist),
at least that is what he said.
follow your bliss,mike

Mark Tiedemann
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Mark Tiedemann » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:58 am

cynic wrote:
Mark Tiedemann wrote: Except modern Libertarianism has been largely influenced (if not taken over) by the Ayn Rand faction, which is about as useless to the Left as anything since Stalinism. The kind of Libertarianism you're talking about came about hand-in-glove with the original Liberal movements, which were all about free trade and markets, ...

"which were all about free trade and markets"
and individual liberty.
which is largely what Objectivism and Rand are/were about.
anti-communist
anti-fascist
limited government

which is apparently what ellison's libertarian friend is about (a (small "o")objectivist),
at least that is what he said.


The only problem I have with Rand---and it's a big one---is that she only cared about the freedom of individuals who she thought "deserved" it. If you weren't a polymath, hypercreative, singularly autonomous, you then probably needed other people's help and so didn't count. She completely failed to recognize that the Americans she thought so highly of couldn't have done any of what they did without the community upon which they depended (whether they acknowledged it or not). For her, such men (and a few women) sprang fully actualized and complete from the head of some bizarre Zeus.

The early Liberals were all for individual liberty, too---as long as it didn't cost them anything.

Limited government these days is code for allowing plutocrats to do what they want.

Finally, the misnomer in all of this is: there's no such thing as a free market. Perhaps a more useful term would be Open Market, but even that has certain semantic shortcomings.

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:32 am

Mark Tiedemann wrote: The only problem I have with Rand---and it's a big one---is that she only cared about the freedom of individuals who she thought "deserved" it. If you weren't a polymath, hypercreative, singularly autonomous, you then probably needed other people's help and so didn't count. She completely failed to recognize that the Americans she thought so highly of couldn't have done any of what they did without the community upon which they depended (whether they acknowledged it or not). For her, such men (and a few women) sprang fully actualized and complete from the head of some bizarre Zeus.
.

these fantasies and bizzare rhetorical condemnations are not uncommon .
after hearing these horror stories myself, and coming to use the information available, it became clear that they are often warped, paranoid fabrications .

charity is fine . when it is voluntary. everyone is entitled to the same rights and protections, none more, none less.

don't believe me (as if that is at all likely :lol: ).

beside reading the work, you can see mike wallace and phil donahue tear into this sick evil waste of protoplasm on video'.
they address most of the same disgusting vicious attitudes that concern you.
go to google video and witness for yourself the venomspitting heartless slavedriving harpie spread her wicked words.
follow your bliss,mike


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