THE PAVILION ANNEX

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:19 am

I listen to what other people say, but I disagree with it, using the facts to back it up. Believe you me I am nothing without my facts, which scare me to no end.

I know that's arrogant, but I know what skills I have and what I lack. It's a bit of a self defensive shield, to be sure.

Diane, I wasn't saying you are uninformed but you constantly misstate my views and act like my sources are out there in bug land, when I use the top sources on the planet.

Respect has to go both ways.

Take Ezra, he still misstates that I support centrally planned communism. I must have said five billion times that I support worker control of the means of production, the complete opposite of central planning. There would be no planners, we would plan our own lives--that's why we use the term libertarian.

And this guff about how utopia is some pipe dream, when there is no evidence that it is, just anecdotal. How is that use of the scientific method?

I may get things wrong at times, but so do the most rigorous scientists. They still debate about what quarks are.

I be only human, dear ones.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:24 am

Mark, pleasssssse, from the person who posts a right wing smear against Noam Chomsky, the eighth most sighted person in the humanties. You don't have a rock to stand on.

By the way, I don't respect all opinions, because some opinions are dangerous. Debate is one thing, reality is another.

Mine are vetted by history and by the enlightenment. Your job is to prove that the enlightenment went too far. At least the right wing admits, they think that period was crazy, that they prefer the coming of the Pilgrims and our virtuous past, the usual bullshit.

I come in peace.

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:42 pm

Frank

If you honestly debated things this wouldn't be a problem. Case in point, I asked you a bunch of questions about the lottery system of electing our officials. I am going to assume that you don' have good answers fo them and don't want to look like a fool.

Diane hit the nail on the head, so I'm not going to belabor the point.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:29 pm

"I can think of so many reasons why that is NOT the way to run anything, 'specially a nation. Who keeps track of those who don't want to do the job? What is to keep someone from making the lottery illegal and thereby becoming a dictator? What happens if you pick someone who isn't mentally competent?"

Take the first one: Obviously the majority would have to agree to play ball, as they do now by paying taxes, abiding by laws, etc.

Second one: How could someone make the lottery illegal, when we don't have elections? I think the majority would be able to stop one person from wanting to be a dictator. Dictators tend to respond to bad societies, not good ones.

Third one: People who were mentally incopetent would be taken care of, not allowed to be part of it. There would obviously be welfare cases, like old folks who couldn't participate, but they could vote on what custard they could have for dessert..lol

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:31 pm

You folks who don't watch the documentary are wimps.

Boy, the interviews the guy got. Wow. Nice.

Mike, you know I meant Mike Moore.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:43 pm

Rocco Rizzo??

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:48 pm

FrankChurch wrote: Mike, you know I meant Mike Moore.
uh, no.
i've made it obvious my opinion of moore is low.
why would moore's be "my" film; what an absurd notion.
moore & pilger pander to, generaly, the same audience.
moore is mainly pilger with half a brain.
i truly hope you are just a troll frank.
none that even appear to be so utterly confused should be forced to live in the real world.
geeze, your life must be some kind of hell .
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:28 pm

Well, I hold high esteem for Michael Moore, just not that one film.

Pilger was able to get an interview with the Assistant Secretary of Defense, while Moore could not get anywhere near a high end government official.

The evidence in the film is beyond dispute, while Moore's film has more of an obvious slant.

These are important topics, should go beyond your usual snide commentary.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:29 pm

Pilger is a serious journalist, Moore is...you get the picture.

cynic
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby cynic » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:42 pm

cynic wrote:some of what i've heard and read from pilger seems to come from the pov of a naive utopian, selling righteous indignation to an audience starved for a sense of purpose.
if my view of this vid is much different, i will surely express my gratitude.
you will , of course, notice the glaring absence of expressions of gratitude on this general subject.
follow your bliss,mike

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Ezra Lb.
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Ezra Lb. » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:57 pm

Frank, I'm sure personally you're a nice guy, and a good friend and I take it on faith (believe it or not) that anyone who is a fan of Harlan Ellison must be of worth. Over the years there have been many times I have really enjoyed our back and forth.

But you're wearing me out man.

You seem totally clueless how patronising and condescending you were to Diane (and with all due respect you're really not in a position to be so to anybody on this here board).

Like Father Brian O'Blivion in David Cronenberg's film Videodrome, your preferred mode of discourse seems to be the monologue. You're the only one who thinks you're having a real conversation.

Lori and Diane just tried to tell you something important but you didn't get it.

I don't want you to go away and I'm not blowing you off.

But you're wearing me out man.
“We must not always talk in the marketplace,” Hester Prynne said, “of what happens to us in the forest.”
-Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter

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Lori Koonce
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby Lori Koonce » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:10 pm

FrankChurch wrote:"I can think of so many reasons why that is NOT the way to run anything, 'specially a nation. Who keeps track of those who don't want to do the job? What is to keep someone from making the lottery illegal and thereby becoming a dictator? What happens if you pick someone who isn't mentally competent?"

Take the first one: Obviously the majority would have to agree to play ball, as they do now by paying taxes, abiding by laws, etc.

Second one: How could someone make the lottery illegal, when we don't have elections? I think the majority would be able to stop one person from wanting to be a dictator. Dictators tend to respond to bad societies, not good ones.

Third one: People who were mentally incopetent would be taken care of, not allowed to be part of it. There would obviously be welfare cases, like old folks who couldn't participate, but they could vote on what custard they could have for dessert..lol


1. That dosen't answer my question. You said I could turn the job down.. Someone, or maybe a group,, would have to keep track of this. Without a way to make sure the list is accurate what good does it do? And how do you make sure no one is putting people on the list who don't want to be there, or taking people off that want to be on it.?

2. Once again the Stanford Prison Expirement shows that if you give the right person the wrong kind of power they have the ability to do great evil. How do you make sure this dosen't happen?

3. And how do you go and make sure that 35o+ million people are all sane?

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robochrist
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby robochrist » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:17 pm

Ezra: "Frank...You seem totally clueless how patronising and condescending you were to Diane (and with all due respect you're really not in a position to be so to anybody on this here board)...your preferred mode of discourse seems to be the monologue. You're the only one who thinks you're having a real conversation...Lori and Diane just tried to tell you something important but you didn't get it."

I believe "Frank" was here even before 2000, and he hasn't modified his tone by a single inflection or shown hints of growth in his knowledge. He has no concern for factual accuracy or coherence. Same wheelchair-bound act for more than 10 years: that's a helluva long time to be playing off key. Whatever his personal hang-ups, he obviously doesn't care. For whatever reason, he likes to shoot off with no interest at all in what you, Lori, or Diane have to offer.

Thus, you're being played for chumps whenever you try to seriously engage him. I suspect that the condescending tone he tosses at Diane, Lori, and others is a defense mechanism, because he knows he has disadvantages. It's a shame: a guy who is more forthright about his weaknesses instantly earns more respect and tends to be more engaging. But a guy who flashes his weaknesses while disguising them as stalwart anarchism just comes across as a phony dipshit. Doesn't have to stay that way, though. It's never too late to come across as the good human being you might well be.

Footnote about the Ellison side of it: "Frank" considers Harlan a political ally. I think that''s his only interest in Harlan. Of course, it was a big interest of mine too, when I was a kid, but ALONG with Harlan's other great gigs as well!

My point: don't be chumps. Offer your points w/o expecting "Frank" to seriously weigh them, respect them, or even READ them!

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FinderDoug
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FinderDoug » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:26 pm

Remember, to defend your own personal copyright you are willing to give up most freedom itself to unaccountable tyrannies? This is why this subject bothers me so. It's not just about some dumb shit streaming a Metallica video.


Define ONE of the “unaccountable tyrannies” that me defending my personal copyright surrenders my freedom to. Just one. What I see is my ability to tell people to stop sharing my shit for free. If that means that CNBC may get pissy if I try to post a 20 year old interview, oh freaking well.

Then again – don't bother, because I'm going back to my previous stance with your posts.

I listen to what other people say, but I disagree with it, using the facts to back it up.


Much like the unicorn, I'm not sure I've witnessed this across almost 10,000 posts.

Also, you can address Mark all you want, but he doesn't see your posts. phpBB provides that functionality: selective screening. I know because I use it too. That he's indicated this multiple times and you still don't get it suggests that you're simply not paying attention.

And finally - Chomsky's vision might be that fabulous, but I think you wanted “cited” back there.

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FrankChurch
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Re: THE PAVILION ANNEX

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:30 am

Rob, you have always gone after me, even if I were to say that the sun was warm or that water was wet. You just are the snide college dude who thinks his shit don't stink.

Actually, Barber defended me with Diane.

-------------

Lori, you keep throwing out anecdotal stuff--with the complexity of any system it is hard to answer the nit picky stuff. I mean why does our system work? Why does the family? Why don't most fathers take the money and kill the children? There are certain internal ethics that are manifest in each of us. We are born basically good. Every Religion teaches this.

To be truly honest, this subject is beyond my pay grade. Even Chomsky admits that he cannot answer how an anarchist system would work, that it's even beyond him. What I suggest is emailing Michael Albert, who wrote paraecon, which is what we both dote on. He could explain it better then I or Chomsky could.

As Chomsky has said we know next to nothing about human nature, so this system could work rather well. We certainly cannot guess that something will fail, when that something hasn't even been tried.

Then there's the fact that anarchism and socialism has been crushed in America, which gives me a sense that power interests do fear that socialism could be like candy, if presented in a free way in our society.


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