Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

General discussions of interest to readers and fans of Harlan Ellison.

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cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:34 pm

wow
follow your bliss,mike

diane bartels
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby diane bartels » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:21 pm

Frank, do me a favor and take some college level classes. You are an intelligent man and you canboth think and write very well and logically when you want to. But most everything youve posted here on politics and current events in the last year has been the most errant nonsense. Anarchism is silly. I'm sorry but it is. Socialism has never worked in any larger modern country anywhere in the world to my knowledge without becoming dictatorship and tyranny. To pretend otherwise is false and wrong. The problems of capitalism are the problems of the human race- pride, greed, envy, sloth. State sponsored corporate welfare is wrong and anticapitalist. There is a tyranny of wealth and power in this country. The solution is better laws better education and yes free information. But accurate info. You could be such an influence and power for the left in this country. Resorting to Well its a fact in my mind and screw the rest of you is a sucky attitude. Its why folks here get pissed at you including those who really like and agree with you most of the time. Just saying is all

cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:24 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Mike, I will comment on the Williams video on my politics thread, so Ezra doesn't throw up.

i assumed you refered to this thread.
how convienient.
it was where the offer was.
but you may as well have left it in religion
FrankChurch wrote: Call it irrational, but at least that irrationality gives us succor.

wave your hands.
yeah frank; he's another one of those facist libertarians. :roll:
that's so sweet, it's almost as though you attempted to raise actual concerns on fact and evidence without taking a few grains of truth, adding to, and expanding them to into a wild warped fantasy.
good for you. :D
morph libertarianism into whatever pleases you lil' buddy.
calling youself a libertarian sounds good doesn't it?
follow your bliss,mike

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Steve Evil
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:37 am

diane bartels wrote: Socialism has never worked in any larger modern country anywhere in the world


Oh I dunno; socialist ideals have informed the policies of most of Europe (and to a lesser extent Canada) for decades. And I mean in the democratic western part, not just the Russian empire. . .

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:52 am

Evil Steve, European countries need huge welfare states just to protect them from the irrational and downright loony externalities of markets, the ones Diane loves so, even though these wonderful markets are not making her or I rich.

Adam Smith said that Markets could only work with perfect liberty. We aint close to that.

Hell, socialism is working pretty damned well in South America. Too bad the colonial powers have to keep using their henchman to try and stamp it out. Good to see Peru might soon be going left.

Socialism worked so well here Woodrow Wilson and his ilk had to jail dissidents and crush it. That's how scared they were.

Socialism almost worked in Spain but the fascists stamped it out.

Socialism is still such a dangerous idea here that corporate media has to come up with crazy filters just to keep it from the people.

I will put the intellect of a socialist up against any capitalist.

Dissidents have always been thought of as silly or crazy or dangerous. That's how they try to stamp out our voices, but truth always wins in the end. I will let it speak for me.


cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:00 pm

FrankChurch wrote: European countries need huge welfare states just to protect them from the irrational and downright loony externalities of markets,
well frank, think of "irrational and downright loony externalities" as acts of god.

feel better now?
FrankChurch wrote: the ones Diane loves so, even though these wonderful markets are not making her or I rich.
i don't think Diane is primarily concerned with getting rich.

i do wonder if you are all bitter and twisted because you are not.
FrankChurch wrote: but truth always wins in the end. I will let it speak for me.
that will be a welcome change
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:08 pm

See, the actual Communists hate my Chomskers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKIu-Jjf ... re=related

He also schools the truthers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HULdCJdE ... re=related

We are rational. Love us.

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:09 pm

Mike, are you 12?

I just love you more.

cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:37 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Mike, are you 12?
I just love you more.
is this the "truth" part , or the "debate" ?
follow your bliss,mike

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FrankChurch
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby FrankChurch » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:58 pm

Quit talking in circles, I dizzy easy.

cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:23 pm

FrankChurch wrote:Quit talking in circles
just trying to follow your..."point"(?), lil' buddy. :)
FrankChurch wrote: I dizzy easy.
yes frank;
you often make that painfully obvious. :(
follow your bliss,mike

cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:57 pm

back to an attempt at sharing thoughts and discusing ideas.
(as opposed to repetitively spewing dogma, passing gas and flicking boogers)
Steve Evil wrote:
diane bartels wrote: Socialism has never worked in any larger modern country anywhere in the world

Oh I dunno; socialist ideals have informed the policies of most of Europe (and to a lesser extent Canada) for decades. And I mean in the democratic western part, not just the Russian empire. . .

don't all political "ideals" have in common the advancement (point to a communal consensus of what that is) of mankind.?
(wide ranging; from annointed/monarchic wisdom to individual desire)

the socialist "method" and performance was the point of Diane's comment?
communal planning, ownership and wealth redistribution.

and how is that working out ?(informed euro policies)
some good some bad, i suppose it's always a good thing to try. Don't want anyone to starve.
but to focus blame (that seems to be the main event) on any one class as our growing pains continue invites needless chaos.
so of course; that must continue.
socialism can, and must, arise spontaneously.
the phenomena (or rather; varied facsimile) have, and will likely continue to occur, hopefuly for larger populations over longer periods than has been seen.
but without the entire population enjoying homogenous knowledge, technology, access to resources, abilities and ideology; it is not viable.
but, have i already offered that possibility; to little or no comment?
not that it is worthy mind you.
it's certainly not the main event.
follow your bliss,mike

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Steve Evil
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby Steve Evil » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:36 pm

Well, you bring up alot there, so I suppose here's as good a place to start as any:
cynic wrote:but without the entire population enjoying homogenous knowledge, technology, access to resources, abilities and ideology; it is not viable.


I seem to recall that one of Marx's central contentions was that industrialisation and mass production made a more equitable society possible because for the first time in history there was enough for everyone. At the very least, the vast majority of humanity who toil away their lives creating massive material wealth should have some small share in it.

To some extent, the idea has taken hold. Today, the most advanced economies do have collective bargaining, minimum wages, child labour laws, weekends, overtime pay, eight hour work days, workers compensation and unemployment insurance. These things didn't always exist; they only came about after years and years of bitter struggle. We may not have a socialists utopia, but tremendous gains have been made. So I would strongly dispute any claim that the socialist project was completely thwarted. . .

cynic
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Re: Frank Church's news corner, the sequel.

Postby cynic » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:01 pm

and you will not find argument with me in that respect, Steve E..

i have never offered any other than respect for, and reasonable rewards for, the efforts of those involved.

a fair share.

charity is good, right and necessary as well.

"I would strongly dispute any claim that the socialist project was completely thwarted. . ."

did anything i offer suggest that?

please steve, show me where i seem to have gone so terribly wrong.

"the socialist project ", as you put it, seems based on empathetic intent, yes?

have i somehow consigned any to the meatgrinder?
follow your bliss,mike


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