Heather:
I was, repeat, WAS going to lay into you regarding this whole "Why are men so hung up over the absence of fathers/male role-models in their lives?" thread; it seemed to me that you were affecting a kind of deliberate obtuseness which, quite frankly, was driving me totally batshit. I thought you were asking a perfectly obvious question, like "Is water wet?", or "Is sugar sweet?", or "Are the films of Harmony Korine pretentious crap?" (What's a word that describes situations where obviously intelligent people act UTTERLY clueless about certain topics in order to provoke a response? I'm sure there's a foreign word out there that fits--Hell, the Germans came up with 'schadenfreude', after all.) Although I STILL think you're being a little too twee about this for my tastes, it is entirely possible, as you've indicated, that this father-quest can seem mystifying to someone who hasn't experienced it--I shouldn't always assume that what is obvious to me is crystal to everyone else. So, as someone whose father essentially crossed me out of his life twentyplus years ago, I can only say that the absence of a male parent/guardian in the formative years of a man's life can wound in the deepest, most furtive ways. The wounds aren't always visible at the time, but they're there, and it can take many, many years to realize that you've been walking around with a long trail of blood behind you.
And you often want to inflict your pain on others, too. That, in my never-humble opinion, is the worst result of having this vacuum in your soul. You want to stuff this hole with love, but you're like the Frankenstein monster who, in his attempts at tenderness, crushes the life out of everything he touches--And who howls in dismay when the local villagers swarm after him with pitchforks and torches.
It can take a long time to work this shit out, believe me. I'm in my thirties, and I STILL don't know when I'll grow up to be a man. I keep hoping that I'll experience some kind of life-shattering epiphany about the whole business, but I ain't bettin' the nestegg on it. In the meantime, I try to glean as many small nuggets of wisdom as I can, though many are lost through the holes in my sack. It always seems to be a process of "two steps forward, one step back", though I guess I should be glad that I'm making ANY forward motion at all. Many male role-models, including Harlan, have helped me in my journey, so I can't complain too much.
(I know, I know, you don't want to hear that, Harlan, but it's true. Let me assure that I'm not some starry-eyed acolyte who thinks you shit frankincense and myrrh. You, as you have pointed out innumerable times, are as flawed as anyone else, maybe more so. That's besides the point, though--I don't admire people, and find things in them worthy of emulation, because they're perfect, but because they strive, as mightily as they can, towards those ideals of honor and bravery that everyone else says are defunct. And you, in my possibly myopic eyes, are one of those people. So, deal with it, all right?)
(OK? Sheeeesh, you can't compliment the guy on ANYTHING...)
Onward:
Harlan, your story of the interview in Salt Lake City reminded me of one of MY reactions to the death of my mother, and how hard it was/is for people to understand it. I recall picking up my mother's ashes from the crematorium, and how I felt a strange elation as I drove home. I know, how could I POSSIBLY feel elated? What kind of a sick bastard would feel ANYTHING but sadness then? But I did, and it was one of the purest feelings of simple joy at being alive that I've ever experienced. I think I had lived with death for so long, had made space for that fucker in my home for too many months, that the life force within me needed to assert itself in the most direct way possible. I still remember the drive home, and how the world looked as if it fairly GLOWED with possibility. And how happy I was to be alive in it. Grief later damped that feeling, of course, but I can still recall my rapture with complete vividness, even four years later.
I know, as much as I know anything this side of the grave, that my mother would have understood my strange joy, and she wouldn't have wanted me to feel guilty about it. But I know that few people understand how joy or relief can coexist with the more 'normal' feelings of sadness that accompany the death of a parent (as I learned from the dismayed looks on the few friends I shared this with). All I know is that the process of grief is stranger and more byzantine than I ever could have guessed. And it doesn't always play out according to Hoyle.
So, believe me when I say, I understand, Harlan.
God, what the hell is it about this board that makes me go on like this?
Joseph: I have to say that I'm in sympathy with 7 seas' rant, myself. Although I suspect that, even if all the world's religions disappeared tomorrow, humanity would still find another way to divide itself against itself, I believe that organized religion needs to be junked. Its insistence that infinite rewards and punishments await those on a finite plane of existence will ALWAYS result in the kind of crazed behavior we saw on Sept. 11th. You tell someone that life is just a delusion and a snare, and the only source of morality and responsibility lies in the sky, and you're giving him a license to kill. It may be a cliche in some circles that organized religion is intrinsically bad, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Of course, as I'm sure SOMEONE will point out, I admitted in an earlier post that I prayed in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks. But it was a prayer more bitter and angry than pleading in nature, and I was never convinced that anyone was receiving it. But maybe I'm a hypocrite just the same; what do they say about atheists (or agnostics, in my case) in foxholes...?
Mitch/Joseph/Heather: Gene Hackman rules. His performance in THE CONVERSATION is just sterling, as fine as screen acting gets.
Harlan (again): If you're gonna disembowel Lynn, then at least give her a shot of Novacaine first, ok? And maybe a shot of whiskey from your liquor cab...oh, fergit it.
Resolving to write about light, happy topics like international terrorism and biological warfare next time,
Jim
I'm glad I wasn't the only one to have been put off by 7 Seas' er, well, uh, REMORSELESS MUTILATION OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. I also know people whose "style" has nothing to do with their considerable brainpower, but just the same, I wish, oh, do I ever wish, that the Internet didn't mean the end of decent spelling and basic grammar for no reason aside from the elimination of a keystroke or two. It's grating, it implies laziness, and I'm whining.
Re: Investing in web companies - They reek of fad. I'll probably be proven wrong once we get ourselves back on solid ground economically, but they're just electrons: I'd feel safer putting my money in a toilet plunger manufacturer than a business that operates solely from the web.
(As a side note, do others feel the way I do? I would think a lack of a physical "presence" would scare off a lot of potential investors, but back in the day, all that money may've outweighed those kinds of objections.)
~Jeff
Joseph:
Personally I am looking forward to Guillermo del Toro's new ghost-story, "The Devil's Backbone" ("El espinazo del diablo", it takes place during the Spanish Civil War at an orphanage); "Amelie" by one of the co-directors of "Delicatessen" and "The Island of Lost Children" (his name escapes me now); Alfonso Cuarón's "Y tu mamá también" the movie that beat "Amores perros" at the Mexican box office (Cuarón directed a wonderful adaptation of "A Little Princess" a couple of years ago); Cedric Kahn's "Roberto Succo"; Dominique Cabrera's "The Milk of Human Kindness" and so much more. I feel like a kid in the proverbial candy store. This year's program plus the fact that the fest will be held in Chicago's two best screens (The Music Box, and the Century Centre cinemas) makes the festival the equivalent of an oasis in this desert island of Hollywood inanities and tomfoolery. Oct.4-18. Saw "Waking Life" and intend to see it again. Too much goodness in that movie to be appreciated in just one sitting.
Neil Gaiman Chicago alert: Neil has been invited by the Chicago Humanities Festival to speak in three panels. He will be doing a solo lecture on his most recent works on Thursday November 8; then he will be interviewing Will Eisner at the Harold Washington Public Library on Friday November 9; and on November 10, he will participate in a Forum on Graphic Literature to hich, if I am not mistaken, the author of The Adventures of Cavalier and Klay, Michael Chambon (did I get his name right?) has also been invited. The Humanities Fest. has a website, but I don't have the URL at hand. Feel free to post it here.
Mark your calendar folks. Make it Chicago this next two months (wanna take a stab at explaining that reference, oh my fellow Chicago webderlanders?)
Lotsa replies, even one to Harlan;
To Harlan, re father figures. You're right, and I guess I can admit that your writing were kinda sorta that way for me when I was a teenager. But, I guess I was either smart or lucky enough to know that I shouldn't put _immense_ emotional investments in such things. Sure, there were people whose work I admired, but I always kept a kind of emotional distance, too. I think it's because I was aware that, like a lot of people, I was taking bits and pieces of others' examples to build _myself_ into something that I could respect. (It's also probably why I never sought a writing mentor-- good ol' emotional defensiveness.)
To Heather: Birthdate is February 21, 1963. You remember, when the rivers ran blood and the clouds sang the laments of the ages?
Re Harlan's comments on 7 Seas Jim: I have to admit that my first reaction was that the guy was a nut-bag. But this judgement was based solely on the _style_ of presentation, and had nothing to do with the substance of his arguments.
Lemme explain. Back when I was at _The Humanist_, I ran into a lot of people who could be termed "rationalist cranks." It wasn't that they disliked religion-- it was that their dislike of religion amounted to one mammoth bug up their ass, in that they were _driven_ to attack it. Every conversation with them eventually wound around to the topic of how bad religion was. They would _live_ for moments when evangelists would try to witness to them, so they'd have the opportunity to use all of the arguments and gambits and scatological jokes about Jesus that they'd spent their waking hours developing. It was as though their minds were bicycle tires that had suddenly slipped into a trolley track, and were unable to get out of the rut.
In other words, this has nothing to do with the actual content of Jim's note, nor with Harlan's perfectly reasonable attitudes about religion. It's an evaluation based on Jim's style and some distasteful encounters I've had in the past. Their _arguments_ might have been perfectly valid and historically accurate, their _style_ was an indicator of something, well, Less than Wholesome in their outlook.
Now, there's a _very_ good chance that I'm wrong about Jim. I've had some friends send me their first Email, and the style is so crabbed and inept that I can't _imagine_ it coming from the sane and reasonable human beings I know. So writing style and one's personality aren't exactly related, and Jim might be utterly unlike the image I got when I read his note.
Harlan:
WTF? Am I in trouble for recounting a publicly shared anecdote in the presence of BBQ attending, pork-suit wearing, previously described want-to-be Torquemadas? If I am, then my entrails are your entrails. Any time you need 'em, just come and get 'em. You have my address.
Gonna run out and see if they have any extra sunday papers. Might need to sop up all the evidence.
L.
Mitch and Heather,
Lucky me! "Heist" premieres here in Chicago at the Chicago International Film Festival. All I have to do is score a ticket for opening night this weekend.
Joseph (not gloating, 'cause god knows if I'll get a ticket, and I'm really looking forward to Linklater's "Waking Life" at the festival anyway).
Heather - Gene Hackman is starring in David Mamet's latest movie, "Heist", which should be out in the next few weeks, IIRC. Can't wait for this one. Hackman's solid performance meets Mamet's salty goodness. Woot!
Mitch
A small P.S.:
I have written a longish review-essay on Ray Bradbury's just-released FROM THE DUST RETURNED. It will be the front page review of next Sunday's Los Angeles Times Book Review section.
It's a first publication, Tim.
For those who enjoy my essays, you'll probably like this one. For those who admire Bradbury, you'll find it a celebration of his talent.
Ray was recently back in the hospital, a smallish stroke that somehow escalated into a problem with his leg. But after four days in the St. John's Medical Center, he's out; and back home.
In time to read his review on page one of the October 7th LA Times. Not a bad Halloween gift from one friend to another.
If any of you are in LA and have access to extra copies of this Sunday's paper--Susan and I will be in Boston, of course--I would appreciate your not tossing them, but saving them for me, as extras for my files.
Thank you. Harlan.
Harlan,
Methinks my response to 7 Seas might have been a bit terse, and perhaps I did not get my full point across (sue me - it was early). I do venhemently disagree with the equating of religion, in the large sense, with terrorism. On the otehr hand, there are certainly a lot of dickheads out there who would have been much better off (and the world would have been better off) if they had never been exposed to their particular killing-advocating brand of religion (or religion at all). Believe me, I'm not saying religion is right or wrong for everybody. That would be horribly foolish, since it's unprovable. I just disagree with your position on religion, and I thought 7 Sea's elucidation of his thoughts rather insulting, as it made broad statements that affected me directly.
Basically, I shot my mouth off. Sorry 'bout that. But not about my opinions.
Regards,
Joseph
Very much persiflage and replying to 1 & Awl:
Joseph Finn: Yes, I understood full well that Michael wasn't
suggesting MY father had "run out on us" as Stephen King's father apparently did. What I was hinting at--and I really don't want to make a big Who-Struck-John of this--was the
perception to an adolescent mind that one's parent dying is
transliterable as "leaving" or "running out on." It produces an
irrational anger, born out of loss and emptiness and just plain frustration, that can be utterly unidentifiable, lying dormant but malignant like a carcinoma. Until, at some later time, if one is lucky, one gets the epiphany that the reason one has been anti-social, or violent, or an alcoholic, or cranky, or a druggie or whatever...is the endless unresolved fury at one's parent "deserting" you by dying. It is sad, sophomoric and
looney; but when confronted it is easily reconciled as mere the manifestation of love/loss/rejection when analyzed by a mature insightful mind; thereby freeing you. But as a kid, it is an invisible, powerful impetus to anti-social behavior. Emotional shackles, easily broken out of...when one is ready to do so.
One other thing, Joseph. And I fear it may dismay you. But the guy who posted in as "7 Seas Jim" is not, in my world-view, a nut-bag. I express a great many of his sentiments about religion--organized and otherwise--all the time. It gets me in
deep shit with my audiences, such as the one at Claremont-McKenna just last week, where I proclaimed several positions that match 7 Seas Jim's. I see him not as a nut-bag, as you viewed him, but as a pragmatist. I know there are a great many people who need faith and religion and even structured life-rules
as promulgated by organized religions, and I gainsay them naught. I believe everyone should find succor where best it is available to them, as long as it does not oppress or corrupt others. But as much as the right-wing religiosos bleat about the imagined assaults on "Freedom of Religion" (which usually turn out to be attempts to limit the rapacious overreaching of certain Churches), we still are inundated night and day with narrow religious viewpoints and entire god-channels filled with irrational and hateful elitism, promising death and perdition to those who will not succumb to the hellfire blandishments of self-styled little Religious Emperors. Bill Maher (not one of my favorite people, despite the number of times I've been on his show) suffers phony patriot's castigation and the opprobrium of the Politically Timorous for saying something fairly rational--i.e., you can call the bastards who flew those planes into the Towers a lot of things--nut-jobs, zealots, fanatics, monsters, self-deluded martyrs, evil muthahfuggahs who should burn forever in the worst hell they can imagine in their mythology--but they were definitely NOT cowards. Demented beyond understanding, zealous beyond comprehension, but crashing yourself into a building at high speed, riding a torch of the most exuberantly explosive jet fuel in the world, is not the act of a coward. An idiot, maybe; a terrorist, for certain; a blasphemer of his own god, fer shure. But not cowardly, no matter how smoothly the word rolls off the forked tongues of politicians and moron flag-wavers. But Maher can catch a tsunami of shit-scorn for saying something just that simple and sane and obvious, because it does not buy into the line of sunshine Bush and Ashcroft have been blowing up all our asses with wind-machines since the September
massacre, all that puffed-up macho braggadocio about how we won't take this and we won't take that and how powerful we are when aroused and how we will track them to their lairs and ferret them out and blahblahblahblah, as if we weren't aware of how determined and insane this enemy has been for a decade and more...Maher can be treated like a Fifth Columnist, but no one has very much beaten the crap out of Falwell and Robertsdon for their monstrous remarks blaming the bombings on homosexuals, liberals, those who believe abortion is an acceptable choice for women if they so desire, artists who produce "degenerate" art,
members of the ACLU, atheists, the Women's Movement and, oh yeah,probably anyone who plays Dungeons & Dragons.
In my view, those two scumsucking Pimps of Hosannah, with their unclean hands in the pockets of the frail and gullible, are as evil and destructive as the bombers. They spread their poison without let or diminution, they produce bigotry and racism and anti-Semitism and homophobia wherever they touch their dusty wings, and they do it most egregiously, shamefully, by bastardizing the wisest teachings of prophets who meant the world well. They are one and the same as the Islamic zealots who kill and poison in the name of THEIR god. Falwell and Robertson, with their smarmy, well-tailored, silver-coiffed con-man demeanors, should be thrown into the same jails as the fundamentalists the FBI says aided and abetted the bombers.
No, Joseph, 7 Seas Jim ain't a nut-bag. He just isn't going for the okeydoke that ALL organized religions have been serving up since the days of the golden calf. They all bleat about the "threat to Freedom of Religion" but The 700 Club is on 24 hours a day, and our money says "In God we Trust" and they make you swear on a bible in court, so help you Gawd, and we take no paid legal holiday for Rosh Hashonah or Yom Kippur or Ramadan, yet the malls sure as hell know when it's Xmas, and the NYSE closes down along with the Post Office. And the one thing we CANNOT HAVE in this country, as much freedom OF religion as there is . . . is freedom FROM religion!
Many of you were wondering if my anger is real. Some of you think it's affect. Bite me.
Amy: I don't mind talking about such matters as the death of my father. Or anything else. I have no secrets. Well, I have one, but no one even suspects what it is; and the one person who knows of it...doesn't know s/he knows. I can talk of these things freely, as I have in endless introductions and essays. Not because I feel the need to reveal such things to you or you or even you, but because talking about these aspects of the human condition is what I do. I write about people. I am a people. Ergo. Res ipsa loquitor. (Likely misspelled.)
And one more reason I don't mind dealing with such troubling, traditionally "private" topics. The reason illustrated in an
anecdote. As follows. I was on one of the many speaking tours for the ERA I did some years ago, trying to get the last few states needed to ratify, and I was in Salt Lake City, of all places (not a salutary venue for convincing women they ought not to be in thrall to their menfolk), and during an interview on tv or radio, can't remember which, I mentioned that I had been relieved when my mother finally, after years of ill health and
a lingering demise, finally passed away. I was fairly emotional about it, and said how horribly guilty I felt at being relieved that no only was SHE free of pain, but that I, ME, I, was also free of pain. The interviewer was horrified. Said it was a
damnable, that was her word, "damnable," sin on my part. Well, I didn't care to argue the point with her, I thought it was a damnably HUMAN reaction, if such there can be; and I left the show. Perhaps two weeks later a letter reached me via one of my publishers, and it was from a Mormon woman in Salt Lake City who had heard the broadcast. Her letter was one of the most heartfelt I've ever received, and one would've had to have been made of anthracite not to have been touched by it. She said she had been harboring the same, very same, sense of shame and guilt at the death of HER mother; and it had been her solitary punishment to suffer this torment alone and unsuccored, because she thought she was surely the only person who had ever felt that way. But that when I spoke, it opened for her the floodgates of memory and tears and pent-up shame, and she thanked me for sharing my insight, that it was a light to her.
Well... I have trouble accepting the compliments, because as I've said here before, that means I have to accept the horrors that someone might commit in my name or because of something they read that I had written. But insofar as Amy asks if I mind discussing, or having duscussed, these personal topics as if I weren't "here," well, no, I don't. Because it doesn't bother me, and if it helps someone else who is less verbose and unfettered, well, hell, that's a Good Thing. I guess.
So, no need to be trepidatious, Amy. As opposed to Lynn, whom I'm going to disembowel next time I see her.
Barney: hello, old friend. Glad you're back in the Land of the Living.
Heather: I didn't say all this father business was MAINLY a guy thing--as you misquoted me. I was only speaking about the epiphany for ME of the Faulkner quotation. You're a very nice lady--if a touch too omnipresent with every last thought that passes through your clever head--and you clearly have a kind spirit and a good heart. But...
I would take it as a favor if you didn't quote me quite so loosely. I hate being responsible, or guillotined, for an approximation of what I said. Peaches knows, I say enough shit on my own to get me beheaded. I ask for specificity from all of you. Just till I reach puberty.
And last, Brian Siano. This thing of seeking father (or in my case, big brother) surrogates in others, is a chancey, dangerous business. As I've told everyone for years, I am no one's hero. I fuck up worse than most of you at your dimbulbest fumblethumb flounderingess. See in me El Cid at your peril. Same goes for those you and I starstalk with demands of "father greatness" and heroic perfection. Poor devils, they're at worst only as human and frail as you and I, kiddo.
That brings me up to date with all of you. I'm looking forward, not to the inconveniences of flying LAX to Logan next Friday, but to the melding with Neil Gaiman and Peter David for a madcap evening at MIT. And to eating my way up one side and down the other of the Food Court at Faneuil Hall.
Yours in arterial cloggage and obscene gourmondage,
Mr. Creosote.
Barney -- I'm so pleased to see you! I actually hoped to meet you at Dragon*Con this year (there was some unpleasantness the last time between us in email, amicably resolved, 'nuff said) and take you out for dinner or something. I'm sorry to hear about your computer troubles...that's the worst thing about working on computers--sometimes they just up and eat your work.
PayPal vs. Billpoint -- PayPal is my method of choice, too, though I have accepted Billpoint from time to time. PayPal was a completely free service when I started using it--Billpoint either did not exist or was for full-time business-type clients. I believe PayPal's fees are still lower than Billpoint. PayPal's only disadvantage was that it was US only, and that has since changed. It'll be interesting to see how member services are affected by the competition.
Amy
Okay, I've put my nineteen cents in. That otta hold ya for a while. I want to work on some of these stories I've been scribbling so I'll talk to ya in a while. K?
Play nice, people. As you are.. nice.
Heather disparuing.
Heather,
A lot of people prefer PayPal over Billpoint for the flexibility, though I'm sure that you'll find plenty of advocates to say otherwise. eBay does indeed own Billpoint, but I actually use PayPal, as it just seems to work better for payments when I sell stuff on eBay. PayPal does also seem to have critical mass going for it, as well as being set up to work with a range of auctions (Amazon, Yahoo, etc), not just eBay.
PayPal IPO? Should work. It's not a bubble company as far as I can tell, and seems to have some solid business practices behind them. There's apparently some questions about the viability of internet-only banking companies, but we'll see.
Regards,
Joseph
Billpoint versus PayPal. Uh oh...
Who are the big money backers of these two? I can see Ebay's just bought Billpoint, yet I also see associations on Billpoint's part with Wells Fargo and VISA. Richard, you up on what's happening with all this?
Ebay, with one 'operating/tranaction' app (Billpoint) versus Paypal with another. Are the technologies the same? Or is one in a better position to sweep the market than the other?
Heather
Maybe not new news to you, but, PayPal files for an IPO, eh..
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-7340170.html
Feed Harlan's Kitty
Help Harlan KICK Internet Piracy
http://www.harlanellison.com
Perhaps, a non-sequitor, but I know we have techies here.
IBM supports Linux?
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/09/28/0024216
What? Really? Cool!
Heather
Tony Rabig:
Oh, no; you've got THAT one right. I almost can't remember the movie but for some reason, I have this REALLY strong..hmm..visual?..on the Melvyn Douglas/Gene Hackman, "I never sang.." character connection in that movie. Melvyn Douglas was GREAT, wasn't he? Good movie.
DE-FIN-IT-ELY.
Hey, what's Gene Hackman up to these days? And hey, who impressed you as a male actor.. in the realm of THIS convo--I gotta admit I _liked_ Hackman; McQueen too--as an actor.. as you were..say... growing up.. or during your "I will watch lots and lots of movies" phase? That second phase, for me, at least, was in the early eighties. Man, funny what not watching television and movies the way one used to does to one's memories of said things.
Lynn..did you ever watch a series -- we had it on "TV Ontario"; a public t.v. channel -- called.. lemma think.."Between the Lines".
This was a Brit cop show/series with .. some guy.. Pearson, was his last name, as the cop. There was a sadsack-faced happy guy other cop and a lesbian female cop (first time I'd ever seen lesbians portrayed as normal people with normal relationship problems) in it. They 'cooked' as a trio on the show.
Further into the series -- it ended, I won't give it away --- WHAT A CHILLER! -- they were faced with an storyline where there was a kind of..(forgive me, I DO NOT KNOW POLITICS) group uprising that the main cop came across. It had a "Nazi-like, we are the pure, we are the chosen" quality to the group (and to be honest with you, I'm PRETTY sure this is based on a real political group that may have started to gather in Britain/Ireland at the time) and this cop had to go sorta undercover with them. There were some scenes in one episode to do with that ideology -- two people talking about the coming uprising -- that chilled me in a way that television isn't USUALLY bound to do.
People, with any kind of feeling that "they" are the chosen and can do so/dispose of others as their ideology chooses for them to do.. frightens me to the core.
Brrrrr...
Heather
Brian:
Mine's Sept. 20th. What day in Feb. is yours?
Heather
Re: the Dad thing
I commend to your attention Robert Anderson's 1967 play I NEVER SANG FOR MY FATHER, either the stage script or the filmed version with Gene Hackman and Melvyn Douglas. While there may be a few out there who'll think I'm outta my f-ing mind for saying so, for my money this play is the great American tragedy, and it's got a lot to say about the Dad thing.
Bests,
--- TR
Joseph:
Glad to hear you see the Internet and the companies on it as being as viable as any other solid business. That speaks volumes to me. I'm sure there are more people like you out there.
I was researching book and music site ideas in Brandon. Had some weird ideas. This was two years ago now. I'm sure the nature of the 'net has changed a hundredfold since then. I'll have more time now to do some research in those areas.
I had this one idea once, at one point (pre-Napster foofaw and legal issues, mind you):
--One musician puts the complete body of his work on a web site for free music download. He makes his 'money' in other ways.
_Or_ have a website with a _group_ of musicians that are plugged EQUALLY; and, unlike, a site with strictly established musicians, have a mix of new and established musicians -- each, used in various ways to draw to the other. (I saw THAT being done on a few music sites. People had 'associations' already with the established musician and were offered similar associations with the new musician. A few flaws there but..)
--The 'turn' or twist in the thinking here is this: The music ITSELF, is used.. as a kind of business card, for the musician. You come to his site, you HEAR all his music, you go 'neat' or 'bleh'. How does he make his money?
----Hmm...Sponsors, for one, possibly. The site is sponsored by associated companies or industries or whatever to help this guy get a decent wage for creating music. (Hell, in a sense, BOOK PUBLISHING companies are 'sponsoring' the less profitable authors by paying them from the money they reap from the superstar name-brand authors like ole Stevo.)
And a "sponsor" could be you or me or anybody, Joseph. It doesn't have to _stay_ in the hands of the flipping music/book/corporate dinosaur/behemoth--he'd be a "stockholder"..to twist that word to a new use (I would WISH..., as the word stockholder has its problems too).
Non-sequitor: I am a 'sponsor' for Harlan Ellison. He 'bakes' good word cakes. I have a hunkerin' for Harlan.
[Scott created a fanbase at a "millions and billions and trillions" of people/author site; he could do that on a writer's site like the one I describe for musicians..TOO I imagine. (Just throwing that in, to keep the thinking personal, here.)]
I remember a Sarah Brightman site with a load of devotees/forum posters. I laughed -- at first -- at their "our Sarah" mentality; they acted like they OWNED her; like it was THEIR job to tell her/admonish her on how she acted (no, she wasn't present at this site; which made it all the more eery, I think). I don't mean I'd want 'sponsors' doing that but it made me realize that people DO want to get involved -- in some way -- with the artists/musicians, that interest them.
----That's ONE of the reasons I thought (a while ago, it's being used in the net now) of the downloadable poster idea. A devotee could help the musician/artist cause in a very PALPABLE way.
People _like_ being/feeling palpable, don't you think? This air crash aid effort is yet another example of that. (Course, I'd LIKE to think that it doesn't have to come to a CRISIS or implied crisis for people to support/help one another. Hmm...let me wave my KICK banner again right here, shall I?)
----How else does the musician make money? On CDs. You people keep telling me how booklovers love their 'hardcopy' books; I've seen the walls of music CDS, records, tapes of music lovers; I'm gonna stretch that thinking to possibly (perhaps wrongly) include the Beatle lovers who want that CD FROM the artist (autographed "bookplates", with a poster, with outtakes, with conversations on making music, I DUNNO WHAT ELSE) that he can put on his music shelf.
You say the world is filled with eBay "stuff" buyers? I'm gonna guess they still like music STUFF. It may just be packaged a little differently from a current CD (hey, maybe this website could include a tiered/product/specialty channel/pay for THIS on your CD, but get THIS for free kinda deal.)
----What else could he make money on? Concerts, posters, musician-favoured items (jellybeans? cheese crackers? *smile*) teeshirts.. all the USUAL associated paraphernalia. And with a smaller overhead of using the web site for marketing, perhaps he need not go so into debt to cut a CD or go on tour (Did I mention the music network to help touring artists cut costs on either travel or accomodation? A kind of Club Med for musicians *laugh*)
----What else could he make money on? Well, perhaps a 'premium' subscription element on the site -- vis a vis an author and his monthy web column -- that the user could buy on a micropayment, pay as you download the microconcert in Justin's livingroom or five times a month, when David feels like explaining the background of the musician or on a six-month health club-like membership -- subject to renewable, you're on our email list and we'll send you a six-month autoresponder notice.
I'll stop here as your brains are hitting cookie-like overload.
But you get the idea.
Heather, brief, as usual. NOT *laugh*
Took a break from cleaning my house (and coughing up clots of Comet cleanser) to check in.
Barney, I'd like to mention that I'm really at the _very_ tail end of the baby boom: born February 1963, matter'o'fact.
What I liked most about Bly was that, unlike such figures as George Gilder, he wasn't using the neglect of men's issues as a means of bashing on the feminist movement. For a while, he seemed to be the lone exception to the hordes of resentful, wounded men who'd pinned their troubles on some horror-movie image derived from equal parts of Andrea Dworkin and Hillary Clinton.
And sadly, the pain of men's lives was something that had been more or less dismissed by most people, even men. After all, men aren't supposed to complain, or wail about missed paths and lost youth; we're supposed to lump it, keep the carapace on, and take our problems to the grave where there _might_ be a sympathetic audience. But when one tried to apply the insights of the feminist movement to men-- say, developing support groups, ultivating a distinctly male outlook, social and economic analyses specific to men-- there was no end to the scorn. Many feminists felt the men's movement was some kind of fraud, to try to seize women's issues for men. Others felt that men didn't _need_ a movement, since we ostensibly had the better salaries, no glass ceilings, and less fear of domestic abuse, so what right did we have to complain? (Which sounded, to me, an exact analogy to anti-feminists askign why housewives should complain because they didn't have to have _jobs_. No end to the idiocy, eh?)
(Also, unlike the aforementioned clown, Bly was clearly on the good side in terms of politics: on NPR, after they'd interviewed him, they announced new updates from Riyadh during the Gulf War, and Bly in the background shouted out "Yeah, more lies!" Nice moment, that.)
As for mentorship, there's an area where I really missed out. I've done some pro-level writing, not much, but I can't say I've ever had a _mentor_ in any real sense. There were courses I'd taken, and one or two editors who'd suggest changes. But I'm not sure whether I can take credit for being self-taught, or feel like I've missed out on something because I haven't had anyone take an interest in shaping me in some way.
To Heather, re impressing our fathers. It really depends; I'd have to say that my generation does seem to have father issues, but there are always those who lucked out. I've read all kinds of analyses that attempt to "explain" why one generation or another made for better or worse parenting. It may be that certain kinds of parent anxiety turn up through social pressure to conform to what your gender's supposed to be like.
Barney:
Hi, I'm Heather. I've seen you around but that was a while ago; and in dribs and drabs recently. Glad to see you droppin' in.
Working backwards from perhaps greater to lesser importance...here's a thought:
When I left my job in Brandon, I took three zip disks and two CDs of the stuff I'd made, created or shot. Not having my own 'puter puts me very much in mind of how you must be feeling right now. Sorry to hear of the 'loss'--that musta been devastating.
And NOT to sound like a .. I dunno...but try putting stuff on a CD -- that means EVEN archived email -- cos.. you just never know.. if you may have to leave.. or it may have to leave you, if you catch my drift.
Now, to Robert Bly.
He sounds interesting--particularly the use of clear prose. I think by the time he arrived in the bookstores, I'd gotten my head pretty straight on the whole "male lore".. as it happens. (or maybe, at the time, I was just psychology-booked OUT and didn't read that one. I'll see if I can find it now, though, thanks). Funny..your use of the phrase:
"..simply having to defend myself for being male."
When I read that, it made me think of replacing the last word with its counterpart. Weird, eh? Maybe I was right, in early days, when I said men and women think alike (only the dialects are different..hm.)
As for Ellisonite females, I can't say if my view is a standard one, but I bet, in some ways, it is. My 'take' on Ellison comes from more a 'feelings' area than any subject/genre specific elements of his writing. (Sorry, that's not clear.)
Personally, I was looking for something MORE...than just Stephen King (though good) when I found Ellison. My first view of him (that sticks deeply, I mean) was the stuff in "Slippage." I thought, "my GOD, there's more one can put into one's writing than some of what _I've_ encountered throughout my life.
I was looking for a "point" to coming a writer. I had some good ones PRIOR to finding Ellison, but, in brief, he 'supercharged' the purpose of becoming one, for me.
The small, perfect truths I recall from things I've read by Ellison, do not take on a male/female 'quality'.. they take on a "human being" quality.
Just now, I'm reminded of his walk across a jailyard where the inmates were hooting at him like one does to a female.
THOSE are the kinds of hooks Harlan put into me.
Nuf said.
Heather
Heather,
I've never made the artificial distinction between Internet and non-Internet companies. I wouldn't invest in a business in either area that didn't have a solid business plan for making money. The Internet is a useful tool, but it's silly to think that means it can extend the time an IPO has to succeed before it burns through all it's money. Amazon has a chance, but it's a little overextended. MP3.com is a good start, but has to deal with running up against the nitwits who expect to get music for free. The other problem is that the recording industry, artists and corporations alike, has yet to come up with a comprehensive profit sharing model for internet distribution. Until that happens, many people (wrongly) are going to feel justified in downloading illegal MP3s to make up for being robbed of $17 for crappy CDs with one decent song.
God, I miss the Beatles - they had albums filled with good songs. And every six months in the early days. Sigh.
Regards,
Joseph
Brian:
I was looking at your post again and thought about this phrase:
"our desire to please and impress our fathers"
Stephen King was the first, Harlan, the most recent..I kept reading about this "dad" thang...(stay with me, I'm being brief on this)
What _I_ realize is I never felt the urge/need/otherwise to IMPRESS my mother. In fact, for the most part, I wasn't really IMPRESSED by her..so why would I? (Oh, we do fine these days but I think you get what I'm sayin' here.)
I guess, this is partly where this "is it only a _guy_ thing?" starts.
I was close to my Dad; he was the stronger influence of my parents. My mom's a good person, but she didn't exactly inspire me much. So when Stephen, Harlan and you suggest the child-father connection is MAINLY a guy thing, it made me wonder. I don't feel I lacked for anything--as I HAD my dad. Though, as I mentioned in EARLY days, there WAS that aspect of realizing that the male/my dad was being a bit of a "head-patter."
Are you still with me? *laugh*
Heather
Joseph:
Ow!Ow!Ow! Racoon eye sunburns, that's gotta HURT. Feel better. Or, put a case of beer on it (or in it. You pick.) *grin*
You're an eBay stockholder? How does that work? You bought stock in the company, is all? What do you think of places like MP3.com or Amazon.com? (take that WHEREVER you want -- but I must admit, I'd appreciate "business model" convos, as well.)
Question: Does the Internet feel REAL to you? In the sense that there are businesses on it that you'd buy stock on or make purchases at, just like an offline business? Have we REACHED that.. hmm..visceral..threshold yet with our view of the Internet?
Heather, still not sure where this convo's going, so the thinkings a mite convoluted...
Since it would be impossible [or at least Sysyphean] to attempt to catch up on the last 2 months I'll just jump in.
*Brian* - I think you're dead on about Robert Bly and Susan Faludi's "Stiffed". I read a lot of feminist rhetoric in the 1980's but pretty much lost interest in the issues after awhile. Part of it was disinterest in semantics, part of it was my lack of outrage at what most people were calling "pornography", but most of it was simply that, like a dutiful salmon, I had swum up-stream and spawned and now my scales were coming off and I felt it was somebody elses fight. Then I started reading Robert Campbell and Bly's "Iron John" at about the same time and realized that what I was "tired" about wasn't my imminent demise [hardly], but rather, simply having to defend myself for being male.
Like our "new war", the notion that being male needed to be justified or defended a priori was, and is, an unwinnable one. So Bly's stuff came along at about the right time. Actually, I'm at the very tail-end of the "boomer" generation at age 42. Guys 5-10 years older must have been feeling MUCH more hammered than me by 1990.
What is it about Bly for me? I really liked the way it addresses things like wounds, journeys, absent mentors, and rites of passage as being essential or intergral parts of male experiance. Campbell hits on all the same stuff, but the prose was so dense that the simple power of some of these things was lost on me. Bly's poetry, on the other hand, you can keep.
I've often thought that one thing that made Harlan *not* a SciFi writer, not even a speculative fiction writer, but simply a Writer was that his audience is a fairly good split between men and women. The demographic gets skewed way toward the male at a comic shop signing but college audiences and even the lines at science fiction conventions seem to demonstrate this. What I don't know is, are the women responding to something in the fiction, the non-fiction, or the charisma of the writer. I know now that it was the non-fiction voice for me [when I was 16] but what the difference may be [if any] between a male or female Ellison reader is something that just now bubbled to the surface of my consciousness. Since I'm not driving toward a point with this and since the high verbalness on the board is about an even split between men and women I'll just throw it out there.
Backtracking - As far as the events of September 11th, I think "heartsick" pretty much sums it up. I can honestly say I have never been able to take much comfort in being an atheist until this week. It isn't that I want to disengage from the issue but a little distance has been nice. Of course the "loose lips sink ships" informational hammer has come down and you have to dial further up the cable dial than ever to find content but that's nothing new. Our collective geo-politics of the last 50 years have us "reaping the whirwind" and I curse the Chinese curse of living in interesting times.
On a more personal note - About a week and a half or so back I had a virus get over my cyber-transom. I lost 11,000 files including 4 years of e-mail. I also lost 1,500 images which were earmarked for Tim Richmond's Ellison bibliography "Fingerprints On the Sky", but I was able to salvage abot 700 of those. If you ever received an e-mail from me or you think we have outstanding business [Shane, Walter, Sue, Bueller...] those records are GONE and I am starting over. While many of you post your addresses on the bulletin board, if you need me to get or stay in touch, please assume that information is not at my immediate disposal and feel free to bounce one off me. Thanks.
** Harlan ** yeah, if it matters I'm all better now, or at least done with my little petit mal seizure.
It's great to be back. I've missed you all. Hi Tim!
Brian:
Thanks for the comments--I knew I might count on an effective responsive from y'all. *grin*
I've read a lot of psychology in my life--perhaps I have a higher threshold of the issues one discusses and the ones one doesn't--I've learned how UNDISCUSSED issues sometimes lead to problems.
Some of the subjects I read about pertained to me, some of them pertained to people I was dealing with, some of them pertained to people I was trying to understand.
You might also note, when I converse about something--or in this case someone, such as Stephen King who's a child of divorce and Harlan Ellison, who's dad died when he was a teen, I also mentioned myself. I also mentioned that I was using Stephen and Harlan as EXAMPLES of people I know or have read of who had a period in their lives -- literary or otherwise -- where the ABSENCE of a parent -- real or imagined (ie. a workaholic father who was home long enough to pat a kid on the head and nothing deeper -- I imagine there are a lot more kids out there like that and I think that's sad) placed a stong urge in them to seek..seek..some kind of self-completion, perhaps? (I'm answering my own question, it appears).
But what I ALSO wondered was, "is this merely a guy thing?"
I remember Stephen King seemed to have a very close relationship with his mom; yet, he still felt like he was missing something. It got me to wondering (here I am answering my own question again) if it was the lack of a "male" role model or the lack of a model, during a period in his life, that he needed feedback from.
Hmm..."lack of feedback". I can understand THAT one. *grin*
Per usual, when the guys talk and when the girls talk, there is this implied male and female-centric way of thinking behind it. Not the case here. I'm wondering if it was less to do with the gender of the person, then simply having SOMEONE there, they could 'relate' to.
Thanks, Brian, I thought there was something to that and the inevitable "surrogate" parent/role model search. I think I did THAT to some extent--course, that might also just have been what one does, when one is trying to learn/understand something.
One goes to the source. Ah...is dat what I'm doing here? Hmmm..THERE'S a thought.
Heather
I want to throw my weight (average, admittedly) with Harlan on the "you can't explain it" business. I'd thought about replying to Heather's earlier questions in detail-- explaining that most children grow up identifying with the parent of the same gender, that there are some things that fathers and mothers give that can't be given by the other, and that there are some needs that men and women have that aren't shared by the other as well.
I guess that, with enough time and brainwork, I could explain what it is about men, and our desire to please and impress our fathers, and to have that sense that we've Grown Up Good. Men who've had good relationships with their fathers can feel it. Harlan lost his father just when he was a teenager, so he had to travel to maturity without that particular Pole Star. Me, my dad was away a lot, and while he and I talk occasionally, I get the sense that he regarded the family as a loss, and moved on when he got the chance. (So I privately adopted a lot of surrogate "fathers," people who seemed like good influences.)
The men's movement derived a lot from this. I wasn't too keen on the drum-beating New Agey crap, but there were certain truths that Robert Bly was addressing. (I was always amazed that women I knew who were "exploring the Goddess" would regard Bly's analogous rituals as empty, silly, and politically aligned with the Michigan Militia.) I don't know if I'd recommend any of his books on the subject, since they seem to be written for men to read-- directed at people who'll respond in certain ways. Susan Faludi's _Stiffed_ addresses the same themes, and does it very well, but she fails to give Bly the credit he deserves.
Well, at least the last sentence of that previous post made sense - sadly, as a description for the poster.
your wrong lynn...there is such a thing as religious terrorism. Not all terrorism is religious in nature but all organized religion is terrorist in nature. Sound harsh? Not as harsh as some 65 year old pedophiliac telling you that if you don't do exactly as god says(actually ,its more like as the preacher interpreting god says) that you will burn in an everlasting pit of molten lava. ALL organized religion should be banned! Its the festering seed of evil that invades the brains of simpletons and perverts. People are guarenteed the right to worship as they want, but there is no constitutional guarentee for the power that organized religion is allowed to wield in this country. If there's one thing that people of different religions can agree on, it's that terrorism in the name of god is good. Look at jerry falwells comments after the WTC bombing. All fundamentalists should be considered outlaws by intelligent and free-thinking people. Only by wiping this egotistical under-sexed scum from the face of the earth shall we have true peace on earth. BTW...for the few of you on this board who think jesus was such a great guy, why did he feel the need to take a bullwhip to the people in the temple selling their goods? Couldent he reason with them? I guess not. One more right-wing nutbag for the books.
No one in particular:
Two points I feel must be made at this juncture.
Point the First: There is NO SUCH THING as *Islamic* terrorism. The suitcase bombs and car bombs used in the Northern Ireland dispute are not left by *Catholic* or *Protestant* terrorists. Jerusalem doesn't have *Jewish* terrorists. Timothy McVeigh was not a *Christian* terrorist. It is TERRORISM, pure and simple. It knows no religion. And I'm fucking sick of hearing it.
Point the Second: Racial profiling is lazy policing. So all of you folks that are thinking that the Arabs (or Arab-Americans) out there should just get used to be harassed for belonging to a certain culture are whinging about the wrong thing. If I were you, I'd get a whole lot more pissed off that your SECURITY people can't get off their asses and do their job the right way and pick the THREAT out of a crowd of people getting on an airplane. 'Cause while Mr. Powdered-Donuts-Look-At-Me-I-Gotta-Gun-Security-Guard is hassling Mohammed, Mr. I-Swore-An-Oath-To-Uphold-The-Constitution-McVeigh (or his twin brother) is using his Southern Charm to walk right past you. Profiling is a *tool* that should be a piece of a well-defined skill set. It is not a miracle cure.
I'm done.
L.
Justin -- yes indeedy. That's Mark Twain. "There is no sadder sight than a young pessimist, except an old optimist."
amy
Does anyone know who said (and this may not be an exact quote), "The only thing sadder than a young pessimist is an old optimist." Thanks in advance.
J
Dear Harlan,
Is it annoying when people discuss you and your life as if you're not "here," or do you prefer things that way? It always seems odd to me when people bring up topics online that they would probably NEVER touch in direct conversation. I'm a fairly blunt person by nature (wow, there's a shocker), which is why I'm asking the above question, but even I try to avoid topics that are likely to hurt someone else while gaining me nothing.
curious, and a bit concerned,
Amy, the rugalah chick
Harlan,
To be fair, Michael mentioned Stephen King's father walking out on his family, and not your father. Personally, I've avoided weighing in on this whole discussion because I find it a bit - distasteful, to tell the truth. It's a personal subject that I find myself horribly unqualified to speak on, and so exeunt.
Regards,
Joseph
My father didn't walk out on my mother and me. He had a coronary thrombosis in front of us, on a Sunday morning, May 1st, 1949; and he died as I watched and could do nothing to stop it. The quotation from Faulkner, that I ran across twenty years later, was this: "No matter what it is a writer is writing about, if it's a man, he's writing about the Search for His Father."
And if she doesn't understand that, well, there's no way of explaining it. The concept is pure epiphany; and the concept transcends explanation. So move on.
Harlan
Heather: As far as the "nobody" thing goes, I'm addressing the concerns of people who think that, if they ain't heard of ya, you're a nobody. S'okay with me.
Actually, you're right about the banner ad thing (I think I misinterpreted what you wrote). Not enough people were clicking the ads (possibly because of the homogenization of users? Just wondering). I got "favored column" status because half or more of my readers were outsiders, many of whom apparently DID click on the ads--I don't have any numbers on that, though, just what I was told by my editor. (The only concrete numbers I had were the number of page views per article.) Maybe the writer-users ignored the ads out of familiarity? Just throwing out some other possibilities.
I mentioned eBay as a working business model mostly because they make money. (Didn't mean to imply anything negative; I've just never used it as a buyer, seller, or stockholder.) People LIKE using eBay. Some suggestions I can make is that, while a webpage needs to be attractive and well-thought-out, it has to be relatively simple (so that all of us with prehistoric connection speeds can view the page) and easy to navigate. (And avoid pop-ups; people HATE pop-ups.) I don't know what sort of incentives would work, though.
Scott
All,
In terms of eBay's successful business model (and as full disclosure, I both use and am a stockholder of eBay), it's a fairly simple model that has been well-marketed. What you have is a fairly simple way for people who have something to sell to get in contact with people who are looking to buy that particular thing. Sounds simplistic, but it was founded for Pez dispenser collectors to sell among themselves. They've managed to form strong and non-constricting business partnerships, and keep growing through making as few restrictions as possible on their membership (no guns, body parts, etc & adult verification on viewing and selling adult items). Hell, I was surprised to see that they're actually making the Motors section of their website work: it's 18% of last year's revenues. The model worked because they charge an appropriate commission, and don't have that much overhead.
Regards,
Joseph (who realizes the above is rambling, but has a nasty raccoon eye sunburn from the White Sox game on Thursday, hasn't been able to land a copy of Mac OS X 10.1, and is too irritable to revise)
Scott, you also said:
"A business model that might work... eBay seems to be doing all right, maybe because it's addictive--a lot of people shop on it compulsively. (I've never used it either way, so I can't speak from experience.) I'm sure that someone will come up with something that works obscenely well someday--I'm also sure that it won't have much reference to existing business models."
I've never used Ebay either, though it looks like fun. I'm just not into much materialist stuff, I guess. (I read a quote recently, attributed to ee cummings.. something about "people who aren't into the 'made things'.. but the act of 'making'.. I can dig that.)
I'll go look at Ebay though. I'll bet there's SOMETHING to be learned by this business model, thanks.
---asshole mode on -- the faint of mind need read no further
I was looking at Bob's article the other day -- he knows which Bob, he's busy, he ain't here, it doesn't matter -- and I marvelled at an observation he made about the air crash scene and the plethora of product -- all in the aid of 'aid' -- that crowded the WTC scene at one point. My brain made a slight turn at the phrase, "throwing money (materialism) at a problem" when I read of the Gatorade (was it?) and other products that where offered by helpful people who wanted to "help" the victims or whoever.
I've only, in recent days, begun to do any reading on the air crash--I limited myself to photos for the first few days only, nothing more--a picture being worth.. and all that--as (unconsciously, though consciously enough) I realized I'd be inundated with the usual crap of 'good-hearted' souls running to the aid of their party or victims or New Yorkers, or whatever.. waving their product logos behind them.
Sigh.
Oh, it's out there, like many mindsets in this world and I realize it isn't going to go away -- I always wondered if the reason why they haven't found a cure for things like cancer is because they can't FIND one or there are too many people's jobs riding on that industry. Nasty thought, you say?
So is making people suffer, no?
Heather
child of myself and glad of it
--------asshole mode off
Scott, you said:
"I'm pretty much an obscure nobody. That's not insecurity; it's the honest truth. I've never been published in a big enough venue (for lack of a better word) to get any attention, good or bad."
I know what you are getting at (and so do you) but I still wanna comment here. Being published, making money at writing...or the lack thereof, does not make you an obscure nobody. (I KNOW what you meant; you already commented on leaving your "I'm nobodyisms" at the forum door)
Cos, think about it: If I'm not a writer/actor/pick one with millions drooling over my toenail clippings -- that makes me a NOBODY?
I think not.
I could be a plumber (one of HE's favorite alternatives) and be a lot of things--but I ain't obscure and I ain't a nobody.
Merely la nourriture pour a pensé, okay? I think that's why I feel this writer gig will work for me -- and I don't say that to sound arrogant -- I just know what I've been and what I am and what I'm becoming.
And this gig "fits". I wish the same for you, Scott.
Heather
I could be wrong, but I thought I read somewhere that Harlan's early attempt at catching the big ring in the world of screenwriting was thwarted. What was this all about? I seem to recall something about a screenplay/movie that came out and due to how it was 'handled,' it rather snubbed Harlan's further inroads to this field (at the time, that is. Again, my knowledge of Harlan's background is still rather sketchy. Fill me in, if you can).
I sometimes get the sense that there are/were areas that Harlan wanted to get INTO that he wasn't ABLE to get into, due to little bits of crap like this probably, VERY old situation. (Star Trek? Let's not even mention that one, okay? He wrote a book about it. I read it. There's not much more to tell on THAT subject--by the way, that was one REALLY good example of that "suggested/angry" style I was alluding to. Some people feel he went on too much in that book. _I_ don't. I KNOW what it feels like to have been in some situation were you weren't being listened to or believed and felt the need to talk about it/explain it and it seemed (to the uninvolved, that is) like you were going ON AND ON about it--but if it's never happened to YOU, you have no idea what that sensation feels like.
I'm surprised Ellison managed to contain himself as much as he DID on that subject.
What is the nature of the screenwriting world these days? Does one have to sleep with Mickey Mouse, Stephen Speilberg or the latest one-minute wunderkind to get INTO this field?
All thoughts accepted at face value. Pennies are most appreciated too. (Try being a cashier sometime; you'll understand the importance of pennies.)
Heather
Scott:
I proffered the possibility to you that not enough banner ads were being clicked at Themestream as I figured this was, most likely, part of the problem. I've been reading how some people feel banner advertising isn't as effective as first hoped and are in search of a better method of financing these dot.com trial balloons.
But you're right. I'm sure the overspending and hypermarketing by head office led to Themestream's demise.
I also realize -- for the short time I was there -- that there were a lot of authors posting but maybe not so many non-authors reading.
But then, wouldn't that be similar to MOST writer-like communities? (Note the distinction between a writer-like community and a lurker community, like the ones you find on a lot of forums--hint, hint *grin*)
Sorry, I'm trying to wrap my head around some possible new views here. A short field study, of some kind, on this process, prior to setting UP this site would have/should have revealed the possibility of this happening.
Or is this just the point? No one really thought much about it before they created the site?
Why does television work, for example? Or a print magazine? Is it the 'narrow chute' of entry (dictated by "let's use last season's success" or "let's not rock the boat" people; that may, perhaps, contribute to the death knell of these two forms of media, if, in fact, it hasn't already) to these kinds of media that guarantees a better chance at its survival? I understand Lynn's monkey and the typewriter analogy but are we stuck between a rock and a hard place with the thinking that it's an all or nothing media where either 'the kids' are slapdashing their stuff -- crap or not; all over the web -- maybe by way of a sugar-daddy-for-the-moment-til-the-money-runs-out escapade like Themestream or the corporations are simply moving their mile-high tents online?
I'll keep looking. I think there's a better way...somewhere.
Heather on the RAM(as in computer memory)page
Just from memory, I think King's father simply walked out on them one day and didn't come back. That might be an out-of-date story, don't know.
And at least in Harlan's case, it would seem that he was quite unconscious of the desire...as he said, until he realized it twenty years later. I don't know how direct the influence was...maybe it was a subtle push towards creating more quest-type stories.
Stephen King seemed to mention a similar 'search' for the male parent. Could you tell -- from whatever point of view you want -- what that's all about?
Are you suggesting that guys look for their fathers, and that gals look for their mothers, if the parent is "missing" in some sense? Wouldn't the sister (if there was one) miss the male parent in a similar way?
And again, why? Does Harlan or Stephen or someone else who missed a male parent feel they lost OUT on something by not having that parent around to.. what..to learn or absorb or get feedback from? Is it the similar _gender_ model we're talking about here or a familial role model, in general?
If the mother was able to, wouldn't she have "filled in the blanks" for either person mentioned? (I'm using them merely as example. Use your own, if you wish.)
How is that any different from having a parent..or parents who ARE there but are not "available" in some sense? I could start a list of all the possible angles to that: parents that differ from the child, parents that are workaholics so the child is left to his peers for support or learning experiences..etc., etc.
Not being male, (obviously) I'm not clear on what goes "missing" when a parent is not there--in Harlan's case, the parent died when he was a teen, in Stephen's case, there was a divorce. I've experienced neither. Though perhaps I've experienced OTHER elements that made me feel "unbalanced"/"incomplete"/"not like the others" or something.
Thoughts? Other experiences? I know you're out there, sucking all this down like a blue raspberry Slurpy. *grin*
Heather
Lawrence Block mentioned, in one of his columns, that at one point in time, the market for western pulps sagged and writers moved from magazine pieces and short stories to paperback novels--mysteries, I think. Some writers couldn't make the jump from short pieces to longer ones, such as novels.
Another one of those "obvious" questions: Why would that be? What's the difference between writing short stories and writing novels?
Harlan shines at the short story and the essay. I've yet to read a book of his, only because I can't find one--old story; I told you that before.
I imagine Harlan could write a novel just as easily but why is that not the case for someone else?
Thoughts? What makes it 'different' or harder for someone to write short stories and magazine pieces versus a novel?
Thanks.
Heather
HARLAN---
I was about to call you, but I've misplaced my phone and address book. It's a victim of the Bat Mitzvah addressing marathon for my daughter's 13th. Please call whenever it's convenient (and if I find the furshlugginer thing, I'll call you immediately). I'm at 216 561 8078.
Best,
Alex
Heather: Themestream didn't fail because they had ad banners, or because nobody clicks on ad banners (enough people do on enough websites to keep net advertising a viable proposition, if not a hugely enriching one), but because most of the readers were also the writers, and because they spent heavily on frivolous things, as I understand it. They didn't have enough of an outside readership, so the money they were putting out never quite exceeded the money that was coming in. That's the interpretation I came up with after talking with a few of the other contributors.
And not everything I ever wrote was on Themestream; that was just everything I had on the 'Net (which was 90% of everything I've had published, and about 1/100th of everything I've ever written in my life--that stuff is what we rightly call "juvenilia"). What I have done outside is mostly small-beans stuff (read: I got paid in contributor's copies). Op-ed columns (fee: nothing, obviously), student newspaper stuff way back when, a few tiny 'zines. (A very few.) I'm pretty much an obscure nobody. That's not insecurity; it's the honest truth. I've never been published in a big enough venue (for lack of a better word) to get any attention, good or bad.
A business model that might work... eBay seems to be doing all right, maybe because it's addictive--a lot of people shop on it compulsively. (I've never used it either way, so I can't speak from experience.) I'm sure that someone will come up with something that works obscenely well someday--I'm also sure that it won't have much reference to existing business models.
Matthew Davis: The James Joyce reference was me being cute and facetious in referring to a remark of mine from an earlier post (in discussing how I've often overdone things in my past, I noted that I read as much Joyce as I could in high school simply because the local school board considered his work morally bad). As far as that goes, you're absolutely right that he didn't "invent" symbolism. I suppose that I was just asking to get nailed, and I did.
Incidentally, I think what Harlan actually said was more along the lines of it took him 20 years to figure out that many of his stories were about the search FOR his father, not literally about his father (that's the Faulkner quote that goes with it, I think--I'm going to quote and will probably get it wrong myself--"I don't care what a writer says; if he's a man, he's writing about his father").
Heather: thanks for the nice words.
Lynn: I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I just think people tend to remember Harlan's vitriol sometimes more than his humor.
G'night, Heather!
Heather
*smile*
Oh, and y'all..
Though we had a nice little 'semantic' go-round, ya didn't answer my kuesteyon. 'Member me, and my "obvious" questions about writing mode?
It ain't about dictionary definitions, here, y'all. What I was wondering--though John Thompson touched on it when he said:
"I say articulating your anger in a creative way tempers it."
--was that I still have a sense that there is this "quality".. this whatever you wish to call it..that is an element of Harlan's toolkit.
Yesss.. I know.. if we asked him, he'd say, "I dunno" as he did once before about how the Ellison Word Toaster works.
And I'm not going to dwell on this point if it ends in more debate team handball, semantic udderances or conflagration.
I've seen little to few people write in this "style" of "suggested/..anger" and Ellison does it, to good effect, as I mentioned earlier.
I could sit here dumbly, like a toad on a marshallow, and not worry about it -- hmm.. maybe this is one reason why I don't learn the 'proper words' to use; I end up in Little Prince conversations with big people who deviate into their OWN agendas -- be they correct, or not; tis not the point.
But the li'l prince here says, it looks like a snake that swallowed a house and the dictionary queen is saying "OFF WITH HIS HEAD! The ingrate.
Me go back to sandbox. Play by myself. SAFER there..
*laugh*
Heather
science fiction book cover collection
http://swezlex.com/sfcovers
some are great books, some are great covers
more coming tommorrow.
Frank, baby, you said:
"Heather, I notice you seem to have a thing with imitating Ellison's writing style. hehe."
Which part, the "angry" part? hehe...
*laugh*
Frank, forgive the mindbend but, as I just finished referring to my city of abode as "Weinerpeg" (versus Winnipeg) and my brain turned to "hotdog" mode (hotdog, haha..two meanings THERE too)...
May I ask.. what is your middle name? I was wondering if it was kinda maybe could be "inna"
which made me think of Beans 'n' Franks and Pigs in a blanket and
Franks inna Church?
Just wondered.. (as in the kind that doesn't mix with marble rye).
Heather Name that tune
John:
True. __Passion__ is a better word than anger--agreed. ("Intense" would be another.)
And I offer THAT point to the Harlanites--particularly, the naysayers; who are ignoring him and his issues--the KICK one being a rilly, rilly, good example--because they just figure he's some crackpot. (I've seen this word being associated with Ellison a wee bit too much, just lately.)
Which is the beside the point of my original question but, still, you are co-wrecked, John. Thanks.
And that would ALSO give a little more credence to what Harlan says, when he says he AIN'T pissed all the time--the way some people seem to want to see him.
The even-tempered person --- Michael Hurley; I looked it up, finally -- could write with as much "anger/passion/enthusiasm/vitrol".. whatever word he wished to use.. as Harlan.
Okay, Michael?
Heather
ALEX KRISLOV: I need to talk to you. You know my phone number. Call at your earliest convenience, please.
HE
Inspiration..lol
Saw a hilarious quote by singer, David Lee Roth, that I bet Harlan would agree with: "Some people drink deeply from the waters of imspiration, while others just gargle".
Heather, I notice you seem to have a thing with imitating Ellison's writing style. hehe.
Someone mentioned Clive Barker. Frankly the man writes long, winded tomes that bore me to tears. Wish he would delve back into the "Books Of Blood" genre. His prose style is really overwrought also.
pas·sion n 1: strong feeling or emotion 2: intense passion or emotion Usage: When any feeling or emotion completely masters the mind, we call it a passion; as, a passion for music, dress, etc.; especially is anger (when thus extreme) called passion.
an·ger n. 1. A strong passion or emotion of displeasure or antagonism, excited by a real or supposed injury or insult to one's self or others, or by the intent to do such injury. Usage: Anger is a feeling of keen displeasure (usually with a desire to punish) for what we regard as wrong toward ourselves or others.
John, respectfully, I'm pretty sure what I saw was anger. HE was talking about the lawsuit with AOL/RemarQ (she noted, waving to the lawyers). And to these eyes, it was genuine, unadulterated and righteous anger. Something about thumbscrews? [Wondering just how a court reporter would document such a gesture and how it would be read back from the record.]
se·man·tics n. 3. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.
I believe that passion is the umbrella under which all of HE's emotions shelter. Anger is certainly one of those emotions.
Warmest regards,
L.
Heather and Lynn: I would suggest replacing the word "anger" with "passion." Harlan writes passionately about the things that thrill and annoy him. Someone else mentioned that it would be impossible to write in a state of sustained rage. I say articulating your anger in a creative way tempers it. (Have you ever noticed that people that can't express themselves are the first ones to start throwing punches?) Maybe this is why creators who delve in the dark side--people like David Cronenberg and Clive Barker--tend to be really nice people.
---Amy:
Auh, DUH..I GOT it from this site. I read it, came back, posted the URL to give reference to what I was saying 'wow' about and that was that...Hmmm? *laugh*
---Scott:
Themestream..yeah, I arrived five minutes before they cut back the author rate. All that you wrote?.. I figured that might be the case. Clicking on ads doesn't seem to be quite the business model, does it? So the question is: What business model MIGHT work?
+++
Original reason for post:
Hmm...
Harlan has Hutzpah
Want some?
Harlan has Chutzpah
Get Hooked on Harlan
Hooked on Harlan
Harlan Hooks ya Hard
...
H
Scott Miller:
Symbolism: Blame the 19th century. Actually, Joyce and T.S.Eliot are the _last_ in the line of Symbolist writers. Writers like Shelley, Blake and Coleridge first picked up on the power of using private symbols to reintroduce a an intensely felt spiritual (not merely rigidly religious) element into their writings – read Blake’s “O Rose Thou Art Sick” to see how much interpretation one small poem can take and survive. Curiously, the writer who may have had most influence on the development of symbolism is A.E.Poe. Despite having a native symbolist precursor in Gerald de Nerval (“I like lobsters because they know the secrets of the deep and they don’t bark”), it was Poe’s poetry and somewhat self-exculpatory/exultory theorising that was picked up and developed by the 19th century French poets like Baudelaire, Rambaud, and Mallarme, commonly known as the “Symbolist Movement”, and who were such an influence on US and UK writers in the early 20th century.
And yes, writers can find themselves using symbolism unconsciously. Ellison himself wrote somewhere in the mid-70s that he hadn’t realised until then how many of his stories for the last 20 years were about the search for his father.
Amy:
Last Thoughts On Symbolism: I blame the whole thing on James Joyce. As you said, Harlan's method of just smiling and looking modest is the only way to deal with it. I bullshitted through every paper I ever wrote in high school and got A's for all of them (highest grades I ever got for doing anything). An excellent example of negative reinforcement. I wish I'd thought of that CUJO paper, though. Nice touch.
Writers do use symbolism; it's just that it tends to be obvious and upfront (i.e. Stephen King giving his convict the initials J.C. in "The Green Mile") rather than clever-clever background stuff that only academics have the time to find (hello, James, what was "Finnegans Wake" about again? History tends to go in circles? Writing so many puns that not all of them will ever be figured out is one helluva lot of evil fun? Something like that).
On Critiquing, Classes, And Other Writerly Stuff: Yes! Yes, the participants are almost always afraid of hurting the feelings of their fellow students, so everything is kept on a nice even keel, so that us fragile writers don't go home and emulate Sylvia Plath upon having our fragile egos crushed. I can be a sensitive person, certainly, but after having stuff turned down by half the fiction magazines on the planet, one develops a certain resistance to these things.
I think that the specificity you mentioned wanting (and that I know I'm always looking to get) is what you NEED from a critique. You shouldn't take it too seriously (after all, an opinion is only an opinion), but it can be a great tool. I don't think that's masochistic. (A masochistic act would be to hammer your head into the nearest brick wall, or to listen to the Billy Ray Cyrus song "Achy Breaky Heart" of your own free will.) Also, consider the source of the criticism: I consider myself a reliable judge of writing, but then I also eat squid and have been known to wear a shirt inside-out without noticing for hours at a time. That may not be the level of wit and acumen you want the person responsible for critiquing your work to have. Try to sound him/her out first. And don't accept anyone's word as final, because even reliable judges of writing can be wrong. And there are always people who don't know their asses from their elbows, and couldn't find same with a map, a flashlight, and the help of ten very concerned people.
Old Technology: I sold my typewriter just before I moved out here (and regret it every day), so I've simply reverted to writing most of my first drafts by hand. The improvement in quality wasn't huge, but it was noticeable all the same. Computers ARE great for revisions (no more having to shred paper and having to tape it back together again when you want to move something); I just don't find them to be very good tools for the basic writing. Too easy to babble. (I know that danger VERY well, and succumb to it often, as some of you MAY have noticed, ho-ho....)
Heather: No offense, but I believe that someone already posted the Faulkner link today. Synchronicity strikes again. It's a wonderfully inspiring speech (and now I know where Harlan got his quote from viz "the human heart in conflict with itself"). Hopefully it's not pirated, or is in the public domain, or something *sweat sweat sweat*. I'm hanging a copy where I can see it when I work.
Contest: No useful comments at this time. Unit in need of repairs.
heading for maintenance,
Scott
Joseph: You're right. I should have made the distinction, as so many people seem to consider vanity presses and pure self-publishing as one and the same thing. They're not. Thanks to posting that link; it was a fascinating article (even if overwrought at times; chalk it up to passion, I guess).
The Themestream Story (offered in brief): A Cautionary Fable For The Unwary
Themestream was (at base) another one of those unworkable Internet business models. It attracted would-be authors with the lure of filthy lucre and exposure. The idea was that each writer would post articles within circumscribed topic areas (kind of like a grouping of hobby journals) and be given a micropayment for each page view. The writers would then build up a circle of outside readers. Then, the Themestream people would buy outside advertising. The entire economic model was built on the supposition that a large percentage of the readers would click on the ads, buy something, and give the advertisers a reason to keep buying space (or to buy more space).
Now, this works in theory, but in practice, it was a miserable failure. At first, most of the contributors were a mixture of competent neophytes, competent hacks, a few good writers, and the rest were somewhere inbetween. As time went on, and as no restrictions were made as to quality (at least for normal articles), the standards dipped considerably. As more people posted two or three paragraph articles hoping to get rich or to get attention, and as few people ever really bothered to click on the ads, and as most of the readers were already contributors, the whole thing fell in on itself. Their spending habits didn't help; they contributed money towards their CEO's desire to race his yacht in the America's Cup (an event which was duly written up by the editors), they were constantly trying to gain readers with giveaways, their offices were full of brand-new unused equipment, and so on and so on. Eventually they made a diminished royalty rate retroactive and shrunk earnings caps and fired editors left and right. In April, they joined the list of dead 'Net start-ups. I was cheerfully told that, due to existing bankruptcy laws in the state of California, contributors were considered the least important of their creditors "and so we will probably never have the opportunity to pay any unpaid earnings to you. Even should we be able to do so, it might be at least eight years(!) until you received any monies owed."
Some writers never even received their royalties (you had to earn at least twenty-five bucks to get even one check); others didn't see more than one check. I don't know how I made any money out of it, but I did. And I'm never going to be foolish enough to go near such a place ever again. And I would advise anyone else out there to do the same.
Note: This was one of those "obvious" questions I talked about asking.
Lynn...
Nu-nu-nu-nu-nu...
You don't get what I'm saying.
And man, do you go up a wall and take the rest of us with you, huh?
I'll overlook that point and return to my original comment.
Someone said, that they seemed to think that writing in an angry tone--full of 'vitriol' as they put it--required being in an angry, seething, venomous.. yadda, yadda, yadda, 24/7, every-time-one-sits-at-the-typewriter mode.
Consider that, for starters, how coherent could one be if one was ANGRYANGRYANGRYANGRYANGRY.. when one was writing, ALL the time, ALL THE TIME!
I even draw your attention to Ellison's comments himself, in "Love ain't nothing but.." and his response to people who think he barely has time in his day for a happy thought.
His comment was '"Fuck you," I say politely.'
There is the obvious element of passion and truth in what Ellison writes--I'm not discussing or debating (me? debating? Pshaw..) that right now.
What I'm saying is--particularly to that even-tempered individual who felt he'd need to be anger to WRITE at the temperature at which Ellison sometimes does--that I really don't think this is what Ellison is doing. Sure, he can be angry, _I_ know that. But hey, _I_ can be angry too. I get the SENSE that Ellison is USING this "style," this "signature," if you wish, of sounding angry -- on paper -- about something.. as a part of his toolkit.
I can't speak for Ellison -- Hell, that's why I asked the bloody question *smile* -- but I sense, that in a certain way, he is DISTILLING his anger and putting it to work in the form of a column, opinion, or other piece of prose.
I think that would be an interesting thing to be able to do, as his writing SHOWS how effective this can be in entertaining, educating, sending a wake-up call, titilating.. or WHAT HAVE YOU!
WHY AM I YELLING?
Ahem. As I was saying...
I could get up a head of steam over a number of things that I feel passionate about. In fact, that's ONE reason why I stayed OUT of this war and love of country conversation--I don't even want to get INTO that topic again--at least, and most particularly, in debate mode.
A story? Perhaps. But not a word debate.
My days of explaining myself, in a certain sorta way, are over. *smile* -- "I've got some flying to do." Remember?
With respect, as always.
Heather
Lorin...
Per poetry.com:
Hmm...interesting. I guess I'll truly have to go grill this kid (how apt, he works at the grill sometimes) about this website.
Lorin, he says, (hmmm...) He SAYS, he won ten thousand dollars in a contest for his poem. This is just some dumb 18-year-old, okay? He's a rather friendly, talkative sort. I DON'T think he's bullshitting me. (.....!?)
Hmm.............
Heather
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/faulkner/faulkner.html
Just read this. Never read it before.
.....wow.
H
Matthew Davis:
"apothegms"
Okay, I had to get up, cross the library floor and look that one up in the lovely big dictionary set on the podium.
Apothegms -- short, pithy sayings, usually instructive.
I've been standing and hauling and carting and jogging too much the last few days. I'm getting stiff. Give me another word to look up so I don't turn into a Frankenstein monster when I walk--my RIGHT leg, oh bey!
*laugh*
Help Heather Walk
Feed her big words.
Do it now. Before she gets stiff.
copyright 2001 Trademark whatevers, as well.
Oh? Did I mention there'll be an entrant's fee. *laugh*
But it all goes to Harlan, dig?
I'll do all the damn legwork -- started jogging today, my right leg is stiff -- and will wipe all the damn noses and keep calling the stupid printer, okay?
Ah, yes, all this background of mine, it all starts falling into place, doesn't it? Ahhh...Buddha-like smile..
*LAUGH* Did I mention I'm a charter member of "Assholes-R-Us?"
Heather
Oops.. sorry for the second post, so soon after the first, but you caught my eye here.
Ah yes.. THEMESTREAM. What the HELL happened there? I showed up and not too long after that they shut down.
Wha happen? Thoughts?
---Scott Miller:
You said:
"but it awakened a serious lust, not for more money, but to climb to the top of the heap (so to speak). Not in a competitive sense; I just don't want to be merely competent. I want to be GOOD. I want the words to bleed fire. I want to provoke people, to make them think, to shock them and move them. I don't know if I'll ever make it, but it beats working the night shift at Target, stocking toilet paper and dog food and light bulbs."
Sigh...yes..YES! EXACTLY!!!
Oh, and I was thinking something (got paid yesterday. You know those things. Two full weeks? Forty odd hours a week? Forgot what that FEELS like. Don't ask. *laugh*)
And easily, EASILY, by say, oh, how does December or Christmas or January sound, I could have a chunk of money in hand. I plan to pad Harlan's pad a bit, doing other things as well, but that's more a "make money" situation.. but I was thinking..
Hey, let's have a writing contest on this site. You decide what sorta THANG you wanna do.. and I'll supply the prize money--how does that sound?
Am I serious? The same way I'm serious about being a writer, me boyos (and girlos).
Give me feedback, give me some categories. I'll whip up web pages, or scripts, or talk to Rick about scripts and such, I'll supply the prize money (or, in my searching for Harlan/KICK related stuff, I'll find something you might want--we'll get THAT, instead or as well) How does that sound, hmm, kiddles?
Heather
Cookie,
You’re undeniably a worthy successor as the great thespian ham of the interplanetary spaceways; immortality is yours.
Lynn,
I hope the not-too-distant future frees me up a bit in both time and economics to intercept more of Harlan's appearances; this last gig sounded mighty interesting, if not a bit cryptic. My Pinks outing was my first and only thus far. Once I can shift certain priorities I'm going to try and show up more. It'd still be nice for some of us local yokels to get together some time.
Joseph,
I'd like to borrow one of those hamsters of yours; my car is starting a bad case of the conks.
Amy (and anyone else interested), my local writer's group here in Salt Lake has disbanded after many years, and I've been thinking of trying to start a small online critique group for lazy hacks just like thee and me, with the aim of unlazifying us. Anybody interested?
Billy D.
It is good that someone mentioned the comment about the "Bin Ladin Left". I am not surprised that a new form of McCarthyism has reared it's ugly head. If you criticize the government in any way now, then you are automatically in the terrorists greeting card circle. Free speech is a lie. You are free only when you have the right story to tell.
COOKIE AS KIRK: [clutching her head and staggering across the set]
Brain---reaching maximum containment! (pause)
Need (beat) threaded discussion! (agonized pause)
Attention span----overloaded. [cookie collapses in a heap]
OK, so a scriptwriter I'm not!
Will try to catch up as catch can. Am especially interested in the pro-pornography feminist stuff Loftus et al are mentioning. Those sound like classic texts. Think a library would have them? We have pretty good libraries here (Thank Ye Gods). At any rate, I'll tuck away the titles and authors in my wallet and see what I can find next time I'm at the library.
You guys are waay smart and cool. And yes, so is Harlan (I haven't looked for his stuff at the library lately. HIS stuff I'll buy sight-unseen assuming I have the bread to do it).
Lynn, re: Harlan -- Thank you! I agree with you completely. The short time I spent with Harlan just confirmed what I already believed--there is no pretense. He is what he is. He writes what he is. No bullshit, no pulling punches nor adding emotions that are not truly felt. He's the genuine article, as are his stories. He radiates feeling and energy. Being with him is like hiking up a mountain on a day that has both sunshine and chilly breezes. When you finally reach your destination, you just lie back on the cool, moss-slick rocks, watch the sky and realize how tiny you are.
Fanboyish enough? I'm blushing. Sorry, Harlan--you're just COOL.
embarrassed,
amy
Lynn -- You're not alone in your return to the typewriter. Recently, I've started to believe that my writing is REALLY suffering as a result of using a notebook computer. Funny, I've been using a computer for years, but didn't see a problem. I believe that the degeneration is a slow process. I think my writing skill mirrors my typing skill. When I first learned to type (on a TYPEWRITER, not a "keyboard"), I was positively flawless as well as speedy. Never needed to reach for the white-out. Since switching to the computer, I've gotten pretty sloppy. After all, it's simple to backspace and correct (or cut & paste the whole damned thing). Same thing with my stories. I NEVER used to do rewrites. I put down what I wanted the FIRST time. Where before, I chose words carefully, I now slap down something that's "close enough" and figure I'll fix it up later. What the hell is that? That's just plain LAZY!
I wanted to be a published writer by now. But now I find that I'm a lazy typist, a lazy writer, and--you guessed it--lazy with submissions. Guess what that makes me? Another freaking hack with a trunkful of mediocre stories that will never see the light of day. Will changing my methods change the big picture? I don't know. Maybe. I've read my old handwritten stories and decided that it's worth a shot.
It's sorta like going to the gym--sure, it's a pain at first. It cuts into your time, you get sore, and sometimes it feels like you'll never reach your goal, but one thing's for sure--if you don't suck it up and START, your fat ass is just gonna get bigger.
Heather: Why yes, I AM a redhead with hazel eyes and baggy jeans and a chewy t-shirt! How'd you know?
Jim: You are a peach, and very much appreciated. Thank you.
Off to the fingertip gym,
Amy
Scott -- I got a huge kick out of your description of writing group participants. I've attended quite a few of these groups, and you described my experiences perfectly.
The symbolism people always reminded me of my high school English teachers. I liked to treat them to essays about "crime and punishment as demonstrated in Stephen King's CUJO". The fact that Stephen King doesn't even REMEMBER writing Cujo gives me an even bigger giggle. The symbolism people I encountered in writers' groups tended to TELL me what my imagery symbolized rather than ask. I think that's where I developed my habit of smiling to myself and looking at the table (which I still tend to do--Harlan can verify).
Unfortunately, I never got the quality feedback that you did. I think a lot of these groups are just too squeamish about seeming negative--crushing the artist's fragile spirit and all that. When I present work, while I do like hearing how people liked it, what I REALLY want to know is: what DIDN'T work? I'm a masochist. Tell me how I suck. I can pat myself on the back all day. I want USEFUL information. I've gotten better info out of two personalized rejection letters than all the writers' groups I've ever attended.
But I STILL wish I could've gone to that writers' retreat with Harlan...*sigh*.
Amy
Lorin O.~
Please drop me a note. I want to talk to you about this writing marathon and your experiences. I'm sorely tempted...
L.
Heather~ I've been a reader of Harlan's work since I was fourteen. What drew me to his words then and now is that they are genuine. Now that I've had the pleasure of seeing him speak in person, I can tell you, I've seen that anger is genuine. So is the passion. So is the joy. So is the humor. So is the sadness. It's all right there on the surface, and in our world of carefully worded political correctness, in our pale day to day existence of consumerism and icono-literacy, genuine emotion is an affront to the peaceful non-existence that most people prefer.
In the post-September 11th era (knowing full well that you do not share these emotions, Heather, you'll have to extrapolate for me), where we have all had our hearts ripped out and handed to us, still warm, still beating, I have marvelled at the outward expression of genuine emotion all around me. As this phenomenon fades and life returns to a certain normalcy, so to does this genuine emotion fade. Why? Because it makes us uncomfortable.
Harlan's anger is most definitively NOT stylistic flourish. It's genuine. And can you imagine if we all felt as strongly as he does about the things we care about, and weren't afraid to show it, to talk about it, to write about it, what a terrifying and wonderful world this would be? The coming days will tell.
(There's a rant about education, self-expression, and the media in there. Something about the pen being mightier than the sword and not having to fly yourself into a skyscraper to get your fucking point across.)
Yours with heavy heart this morning,
L.
Heather:
You adverted to my "photography background" -- that's a different David Loftus. Lives on the East Coast, I think. Probably Irish background, I'm guessing. I'm a descendant of Norwegian Loft(h)uses. My ancestors raped and pillaged those johnny-come-lately Irish Loftuses.
David Loftus doesn't seem like a very common name, but I've heard of many others -- even two with the same middle initial -- and I occasionally receive emails from people looking for a different David Loftus. (One was an Irish priest, another an Olympic swimmer from Australia.)
That being said, I do enjoy "doing photography"; I just haven't done it professionally.
Peter:
You raised the issue of writing contests and reading fees. As to the latter, it all depends on WHICH contests and in what context. Longtime writing contests that have nothing to do with the Internet are likely to be more respectable, of course.
I think writing contests can be useful, but not for the obvious reasons. If they spur you to write, then that's all to the good. Any excuse to write is a good one. Forget about winning anything, just like you should forget about publishing. Just produce, get the stuff out there where someone else sees it, and go on producing.
Jim Davis:
Yes, I am tired of people asking if I did a lot of research -- as a joke. If they pose it as a serious question, as I think you have, then I have no problem with it. I DID do a lot of research, but not into pornography itself. Oh, I rented "Deep Throat" and "Behind the Green Door" because they're classics and I'd never seen them, so I figured I should know what other people are talking about, and maybe a couple others, but my research consisted mostly of reading what OTHER people have written about porn, from the radical anti-porn feminists to the Christian presses.
Since the latter are not widely available, I reluctantly had to order copies of distraught Christian wives' memoirs of their hubby's "addictions" (what arduous reading that was!), and crusading researchers' attempts to prove the deadliness of porn and the evil of Kinsey. (Dr. Judith Reisman, now THERE's a character.)
I should point out that my book is not about pornography, really; it's about men, and what they think and feel. I spent a lot more time talking to guys -- in person and on the Net -- than doing research, let alone looking at porn. I asked a broad variety of men about their experiences, attitudes, perceptions, tastes, recommendations for social policy.
All the research was tiring, though, and made me fantasize about writing a novel next. Surely that would be easier, I thought, though I never believed, before I began this book, that I could write fiction. Now I think I may have to give it a try. I have an idea for a novel. But of course it will require lots of ... RESEARCH!
Joseph:
I wasn't that impressed with McElroy's book. If you're interested in women's personal accounts of their fascination with pornography, I suggest you seek out _Tales From the Clit_, a collection of essays edited by Cherie Matrix. It's earnest and honest, despite the facetious and tacky title.
If you're more inclined toward scholarly analyses of pornography and its role in American culture, the best books are Linda Williams's _Hard Core: power, pleasure and "the frenzy of the visible"_ (in which the UC Berkeley prof compares the style and techniques of video porn to movie musicals), and Laura Kipnis's _Bound and Gagged: pornography and the politics of fantasy in America_ (in which porn's transgressive approach and aims are discussed; the chapter on Hustler magazine and nude Jackie O pics is incredible).
One more quickie.
LYNN: Thanks for your comments on my FORGET-ME-NOT story. Gave me a proper goose for the day, it did. (Read that in some kind of Cockney accent, and it may work better). Thanks too for posting the Terry Bisson URL. I DID laugh aloud at that story, and days later keeping thinking about "meat flapping" as our means of communication. :)
You definitely picked up on the not-so-subtle subtext/symbolism of the story, though surprisingly few people did. (One person thought I was writing about the inside of an Etch-a-Sketch! Which is kind of an interesting idea, now that I think about it, but of course patently goofy.) I, too, wonder where my mental faculties are going to be when I head into my twilight years. I had a grandfather with Alzheimers but also a grandmother who at 93 could calculate the Pi to the kajillionth digit. Crap shoot, I guess. In the meantime, I try to read more than zone in front of the t.v., engage my brain in mental puzzles, and generally tell myself that when I say, "Did you put the cat under the mat" (insead of KEY), it's just a sign of speaking faster than I think and nothing more sinister than that.
More later on the voluminous posts, but I just wanted to send a shout-out to Heather, re: poetry.com.
RUN, HEATHER, RUN! Don't enter their contests. Don't post on their website. Don't have anything to do with them. They ARE the same agency that has been defrauding writers for I-don't-know-how-many-years now.
The way it works is that after you submit, they write to tell you that you're a "runner-up" in their contest, and that they'd like to include your work in their "Greatest Living Poets of All Time" anthology. They don't pay, even in copies, but if you'd like to purchase said anthology, well, it's a mere $50.
Even if you see that for the scam it is, many people do not, and by submitting to them you're helping them perpetuate what is basically fraud. Those who DO shell out the money for said anthologies are generally mortified to find that their poem has been crammed on a page with eight others in a book where you're lucky if you get seven-point type.
Grrrr.
Over and out --
Lorin
Peter:
I agree with ya. I wouldn't normally bother with writing contests as I think, in most cases, it's simply a license to print money for those collecting entry fees. I promise to be careful with poetry.com too. $10K for a poem -- I saw the fellow's poem, nothing special -- but it may have been as much a marketing sorta thing. yanno?
My take, right on, on paying gigs.. contests or otherwise.. will be to make money for KICK.
Longterm.. with the way the Internet is.. I'll work on having my OWN site with ebooks or whatever.. but in the meantime, and while Harlan needs dough.. I'll try the contest, etc. route.
Please comment..as you have done.. on any contest sites you've heard rumors about. That website Lori did the contest on, has a newsletter and, in it, they mention notorious paying companies, on occasion. Good resource, that sorta thing.
Now.. to my original quick comment.
Someone said they can't toss the vitriol the way Harlan does. They are too even-tempered.
Uhmm...I realize Harlan has a rep (that's just IT, it's a rep) but if he was in this constant state of anger you sense he's in while he writes, he'd have blown more than a heart gasket, years ago.
I sense Harlan's "anger" is something of a stylistic flourish? What's your take on that?
Anyone can get up a head of steam and write their heart or mind or thoughts out..and add a little venom.
Just my opinion. Off to collect $20 bills.
Heather
Leonardo who? :)
10:30 pm -
11:30 pm Leonardo DiCaprio and Sir Arthur C. Clarke - a Titanic effort to save the gorillas. chat at Yahoo! Chat
Never pass up on a chance to hear from Sir Arthur C. Clarke!
Since the writing thing seems to have come up again, I direct your attention to Faulkner's acceptance speech for the Nobel Prize:
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/faulkner/faulkner.html
Take it to heart.
For your consideration:
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa01024.html
A little over the top at places (Clinton as a smiling mask and window dressing?), but a fine look at anti-Americanism.
Scott,
And let's distinguish vanity presses from the entirely different self-published side, just to be complete.
Jim,
Yep, as usual, Twain has sometin' to say about the situation. For some reason, I've also had "A Letter To Earth" and "The Story of a Campaign That Failed" rattling around in my head.
Regards,
Joseph
Jim:
Auden himself would have been deeply upset that “September 1, 1939” has been revived. He rejected it not long after it was first published and it never appeared in another collection during his lifetime. He felt it offered the sort of shallow apothegms which people expected of poetry but of which he had higher expectations – “The most dishonest poem I ever wrote. I pray to God I shall never be memorable like that again”. He was outraged when it was later misquoted in the infamous Lyndon Johnson daisy chain/nuclear bomb TV campaign – “One cannot let one’s name be associated with shits.”
The poem by Auden I was afraid was more likely to get dragged up for partisan use was “Spain 1937” with the lines (later amended):
“Today the deliberate increase in the chances of death;
The conscious acceptance of guilt in the necessary murder;”
Further oops--when I mentioned vanity presses in connection with fee-charging agencies, I unintentionally implied that all vanity presses are dishonest. Not so. The dishonest vanity presses I was speaking of are usually tied into or owned by said fee-charging agencies (like, for example, Sovereign Publications, which was owned by the same people as the Deering Literary Agency).
Oops--forgot to type the entire URL.
The URL for "Writer Beware" is:
http://www.sfwa.org/beware/
Peter: Generally, I avoid *anything* that involves a fee. I don't know what my position on those contests is--I don't know much about them--but USUALLY editors (or agents) that charge reading fees right up front are either bilking the writer, or involved in a vanity press (which ends up being dishonest). The saga of the Deering Literary Agency is a very good example--I don't remember all the specifics of the case, but they would solicit manuscripts (targeting new or unpublished writers), charge them a reading fee, and then the books would go to a vanity press (which they had a huge stake in), where the writers would pay pretty much the entire publishing costs, plus a little lagniappe for the Deering people. Their methods were underhanded enough (and so few people apparently got the books that they had paid to print) that the Deering agency ended up being prosecuted for fraud.
http://www.sfwa.org
(the official website of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association, for those of you who may not know) has an entire section called "Writers Beware" full of stories like this one and some very pertinent warnings if you're curious.
Scott
Heather: All right, writing is not a competition, but, figuratively speaking, I've only been diving into the pool (officially) as a full-time amateur for three years (with many, many years of private scribblings that I rarely, if ever, bothered to try to submit to anyone before that; my first submission was, let me see... I tried to submit a mystery to Alfred Hitchcock's Mystery Magazine when I was fifteen, but they turned it down--natch--and not even with a form letter, but with a Xerox copy of a form letter. I still have it and plan to hang it in a bathroom someday). I never got paid in cash for anything I'd ever done until last year, but it awakened a serious lust, not for more money, but to climb to the top of the heap (so to speak). Not in a competitive sense; I just don't want to be merely competent. I want to be GOOD. I want the words to bleed fire. I want to provoke people, to make them think, to shock them and move them. I don't know if I'll ever make it, but it beats working the night shift at Target, stocking toilet paper and dog food and light bulbs.
As far as what I have on the 'Net: basically, nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Back at the very beginning of April, 90% of my entire career was archived online at Themestream.com (someday I'll tell that story, but not right now). On the 13th, they closed down operations (owing me a few hundred dollars and with no advance notification, even though they claimed to have notified all of their contributors). And when they declared bankruptcy, they shut down the entire site as well. Anyway, nearly all of it was nonfiction, which is sort of outside the discussion anyway. So, if you'd like to see something I've done, I'd have to e-mail it to you privately.
I'm not confident in my abilities, not just because of my age, but because I'm mostly self-educated. I'm a college dropout. I've got a high school diploma but I never paid much attention in school; it was too boring and slow. I did have several good teachers, but they were held back by having to teach at the pace of the students who had the most trouble learning. I've had to learn most of what I know through either experience or reference books. I promise to throw the insecurities into the ditch from this point on. (Actually, I'll have to do it in the morning; I'm not walking out there in the middle of the night. Er, morning. Whatever.)
so, okay, this guy walks into a bar,
Scott
Finder: Yes! Felix Roma's! The best Italian bread I have ever had in my entire life. It's been five years since I've had any at all, but I still think about it from time to time. I will always thank my grandmother for introducing them to me at an early age (she lived in Sidney and I've got other relatives all over Central NY and the Southern Tier, though not in Endicott).
Found scribbled in the margins of the Lindisfarne Gospels...
Joseph: You know, I wondered how The Onion was going to deal with the horrors of the last two weeks; it seemed to me that the only proper response was silence. Well, I was wrong. We NEED fearless satire now more than ever, and the new issue pulled it off in spades. I emailed the article on God's press conference to a dozen people, and I thought that the depiction of the terrorists' punishment in Hell was the most obscenely funny thing I've read in a long time. It kind of reminded me of Harlan's "Bleeding Stones", now that I think of it...
David: Congratulations on the new book, my man! You've got at least ONE future buyer here. What was the original title, by the way? And aren't you tired of people asking, "So, um, did you (wink) DO A LOT OF RESEARCH for it?"
(Pause)
So, um, DID you do a lot of research for it?
Amy: Don't, don't, don't, don't, DON'T apologize for your earlier post. Hell, if you can't vent your feelings on a lousy message board (no offense to the fine men and women here), then what good is the damned thing? Besides, if you want to see a primo example of Weltschmerz, read my bleak wail of a post from a week ago. I wouldn't take it back if I could, so don't fret about anything you may have written in a moment of despair--life can break your heart sometimes, and it often helps, in a strange way, to serve notice of that fact.
You know, I was thinking lately about perception, and how it shapes reality. Part of me is repulsed by the notion that something good can come out of the terrorist attacks; it seems facile and self-indulgent in the worst way, as if all those people died just to aid the living in some silly process of self-actualization. I remember the lines of a poem by Randall Jarrell: "Pain comes from the darkness/ And we call it wisdom. It is pain." Just the same, I've decided to dwell (if dwell I must) on the good I've seen in people the last two weeks: their generosity, their selflessness, their kindness, their determination to keep going on. It may be a delusion to think this way, but it's the delusion that sustains me and gives me a reason to hope.
I mean, what other choice do I have, really?
So I think about perception, and how it can transform. I'm reminded of the story about the very long spoons that the damned are given in Hell, and how the tormented souls cannot feed themselves as the spoons are longer than their arms.
And how the same spoons are used by the souls in Heaven to feed each other.
Some links for your delectation:
Joseph, you mentioned Twain. Well, as always, he had the definitive word on humanity's bloodlust:
http://www.lone-star.net/mall/literature/warpray.htm
This poem by Auden, "September 1, 1939", has been making the rounds the last two weeks:
http://www.poets.org/poems/poems.cfm?prmID=1391
This week's installment of "Jim's Discoveries", #13378:
There's a WONDERFUL little story in the Oct. 2001 issue of Harper's--"Changs and Wrens", by Eliot Weinberger. It's reminiscent of Borges and some of Harlan's later work, and y'all should read it as soon as possible.
You know, I was going to weigh in on this whole cat/dog foofaraw, and how telemarketers are really gnawing on my last nerve, but that'll have to wait for a day or two. (Can hardly wait, can ya?)
So sleepy, Imstartngtopassoutatthkeyboral,
Jim
Heather,
You've got the right idea. The only reason to write is because you wanna. Ya gotta want it. Crave it. Gotta have it!
To quote Kurt Vonnegut, "Don't write to make a living. Write to feed your soul."
Chuck
I believe poetry.com is the same group that used to publicize poetry contests in the sunday comics. If they are, I've been warned away from this group by several people who I would trust with my very life.
To that end, I want to ask many of the wannabe publishees (I won't say wannabe writers because the only wannabes in writing as far as I'm concerned are those who constantly talk about wanting to write this, or write that, and never get down to the actual task of stringing together letters and words and sentences, except maybe to talk about how much they want to write, except they don't really have the time...) what value do you place in writing contests? I, personally and philosophically, am repelled by any kind of competition, or agency, or publication that imposes any kind of "reading fee." I want to be PAID for my writing, even if that payment is in contributors copies . . . I want to be paid. There is no way in the deepest darkest depths of H.E. double hockeysticks that I'm going to PAY for anyone to read my work. As far as I'm concerned that is Bass Ackwards and stupid. Yeah, some of these fees are nominal, like six to fifteen bucks. But even if it were two cents or thirty pieces of silver, I wouldn't do it. Am I being unecessarily stubborn in this attitude?
Sure, six bucks may be a small price to pay for $10K, but I would rather sell a story for $250, $25, or two copies, than plonk down anything greater than, or at least, beyond postage for the privilege of having my story perused. At least there is a smidgen of respect for having your story rejected from a slush pile. I wouldn't want to pay for the privilage of being rejected.
Sorry if I'm ranting, but I was downstairs in the English department, (the chair of the Philosophy department used to say when students accidentally came up here looking for English that "English is beneath us, where they belong.") and I was glancing over the bulletins for various contests, more than 75% of which had "reading fees" which pissed me off to no end. As I said, at least I can respect myself after an "alas" from GVG, or whoever that "editorial assistant" of his that responded to my last submission is.
---Peter (who must now catch a bus so as to get home before midnight HMT)
Heather,
I'll agree with you....halfway.
Satire doesn't need to be funny...just effective.
Regards,
Joseph
Again: Might I suggest you check out Amazon.com's honour system:
http://auctions.amazon.com/exec/varzea/subst/fx/home.html/ref=gw_m_ln_os_new/ref=gw_hp_ls_3_1/107-9087809-8629358
for payments for content.
H
night tall!
---Joseph:
Oh...satire has it laugh factor. *grin*
+++
To all:
This won't be for a while but here's the latest on the writing contest Lori was in:
ALL FULL!
The Fall 24-Hour Short Story Contest, to be held on September
29th, is already full! Entries are now being accepted for the
Winter contest to be held on January 26, 2002. (*There's a small fee. VERY small*) Don't miss out on the ultimate source of creative stress and tons of fun! Guidelines and prize list are here.
http://www.writersweekly.com/misc/contest.html
+++
And don't ask me how or why but.. I just talked to a guy at my work -- an 18 year old -- who won a $10K poetry contest prize when he was in the ninth grade -- at poetry.com
Food for thought/Rubles for Harlan.. DIG?
---Rick: Scott from Fictionwise has a link for Ellison, it's just not on the fan link page--Sos ya know. But he also said he'd put a KICK link on the LINKS page. Cool, eh? He said his brother has been very helpful to Harlan on this KICK issue.
Heather
Heather,
You know, I don't think The Onion was going for a laugh in that article - or in anything this issue. Just satire. Clean, vicious, shiv-in-the-ribs satire.
Regards,
Joseph
---Scott: (Also...)
I know what you mean about the "I like it/I don't like it" Pod People. *laugh* Aren't they FUN?
I have to admit, I wasn't great at critiquing my friends work in the early days (partly, as I didn't know what WORDS to use) but I think, as I continue to create, I will have more to say about what I like about yours (or someone else's) work.
I know, the other day, I probably drove a friend NUTS when I offered comments on a poem she wrote. *snort*
I'll offer comments--even tho they may be completely off the wall (like me)--but I am starting to understand a little bit about what this kind of feedback does for a writer--even on simply a 'subtle' level. (Though, I also agree with the Ellison mantra, "Listen to no one!")
Have you got anything online, by the way?
---Tony Rabig:
I was in a used bookstore this summer and I'm SURE I read Stephen King's "..the third eye." I've been at THIS library at the school and have shuffled through the early detective-like writers too and I MAY have seen something of MacDonald's. I'll go back to the used bookstore and see if that was the edition. Thanks.
---Brian:
Per Harlan's comment about a ...hm...Dickerson?..short story...ah...argh.. too many names..I read an intro of his on the idea of HIS cat description never truly looking the same as the one _I_ would envision. It hadn't completely occured to me before I read that piece. Your comment mirrors that point. I thank you.
---David Loftus:
YOUR comment, in particular, reminds me of this--I talk too much. (Stupid way of putting it.) I could talk for days. But I am preferring to learn how to WRITE at such a level that a reasonable majority of the readers will stick WITH me because I DON'T go on and on.
Truth time--I guess that's what I'm getting at here. I KNOW I could hobble down this garden path -- yet, another one, for me --and be a writer, babbling on and on..
but I don't. And I won't. And this is important. And this is why I ask.
Oh.. and you have a point--it DOES depend on the story, as to how much description should be used. I still find it interesting how memorable Harlan's description of the pages in that Publisher's Weekly magazine was. It went on and on, in great detail about the way science fiction authors were "positioned"--yet it drove home, very DEEPLY, the point for me, as to how science fiction was being viewed at that point in time.
So, I get what you mean, David.
HEY! YOU SHOULD BE GIVING ME COMMENTS ON SEX, HMM??? *laugh* Congrats on the book.
Cool. You have quite the photographer background too, don't you?
---Joseph:
Per "God Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Comment."
*laugh* Oh.. shit. "My bad!".. *laugh*
Hey.. maybe Harlan IS god! Look at all the swearing the guy in this piece does, hey?
*Laugh* Thanks, Joseph!
---David Loftus:
You said:
"Jesus. "Four weeks from the World Trade Center"? Where was my head at? That was supposed to be four blocks, of course."
Who knows? I was thinking maybe they'd been blown back in time, being so near to the WTC...?
No? *laugh*
---Lynn:
You said:
"I've gone and misplaced my mind again. It happens. And I actually found a website that has SERVICE MANUALS for the bloody thing."
MY GOD, WHO ARE YOU? There's a website somewhere with a service manual on YOUR MIND?
Wow. I'm impressed!
Heather
David,
Wendy McElroy! That's the one! I should've known you would have encountered that one in your research... Thanks a lot. I'll have to rustle up a copy.
Lynn,
Thanks for the chuckle of the evening. Pre-pornography feminism, indeed..... How's the coffee?
Regards,
Joseph
Scott:
I don't say this to sound smart--cos I MEAN this.
You said:
"I'm a little leery of offering advice to anyone ahead of me in The Craft Of Writing Dept."
I THINK it's because of the oddball way I came by this writing 'gig' I'm into, that...hmm...it bothers me when you.. or ANYONE.. suggests that you are 'ahead' or 'behind' me in all this stuff.
Hmm...maybe it's just me...and also cos Lawrence Block just told me (by way of his book; no, we aren't on speaking terms..YET *laugh*) that this writing thing is NOT a competition. You can't write like me. I can't write like you. "Apples and oranges" I think Block said. And I can't STRESS this enough for anyone who is looking at me (or anyone else who writes on this forum) and saying, "ooooh.. geee, I can't do THAT."
Hey! You don't have to. Do you have red hair, hazel eyes, baggy jeans, and a chewy, old teeshirt on? Hey! You don't HAVE to write like me.
What you have to do -- only if you wanna --
is write like YOU. And your advice works for you and that's a pretty good sign.. for ME. If you catch my meanin'. (Dropping a lot of "g's".. could someone pick them UP, please?)
The forums and listservs I've been on consisted of a lot of 20-somethings. That's partly because of fate, and partly because those are the people on the Internet right now.
And if I was to think you would think TWICE about offering me some of your thoughts or FEELINGS on this subject because you.. hmm... AIN'T ME! *laugh*
...that t'would just be silly.
Anything. Tell me.. ANYTHING. You may have NO idea just how much it might help. Nnkey? (It might even help YOU and that would be good too. You know that old phrase about how teaching someone something sometimes helps YOU to learn it better.. 'n' all?)
Well, it just might, K? So thanks for the feedback.
Heather
Sept. 10th, NPR, All Things Considered: Noah Adams talks with British Chess Grand Master Nigel Short, a chess columnist for the Sunday Telegraph, about why he thinks he may have played American chess legend Bobby Fischer on the Internet.
I meant to mention this but life distracted me. I would paste the link to the article but it's long and ugly, so if you're interested, use the search function at http://www.npr.org.
Can you believe the things this Net reveals? It's like Pandora's junk drawer. I'm actually looking into buying a typewriter - an Underwood No. 5 to be specific. Don't ask why - I've gone and misplaced my mind again. It happens. And I actually found a website that has SERVICE MANUALS for the bloody thing. Now, I will stipulate the invalidation of the Typing Monkeys Theorem, but GEEZ. (Typing Monkey's Theorem: If you put a sufficient number of monkeys in a room with a sufficient number of typewriters, sooner or later, they will produce the Works of Shakespeare. The Internet has easily disproven this.)
L.
Jeff Homes:
No.. but you see.. that's EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm looking to hear. It occurs to me that this kind of thing is the reason I tend to appear more knowledgeable on a subject after a brief time talking to people; asking questions; listening, in a certain way.. I dunno...
It's like..someone asks you to tell them what the English language is; to describe it, perhaps; and you think to yourself, "okay, this is obvious, this IS obvious, and .. yet"
concise..word pictures (yes--I picked up that rather freaky--or so I think so--habit of working from 'word' pictures) and trying hard not to deviate TOO far off to the left or right..
Which brings one back to your word -- concise..
Exactly.
Talk about a weird conversation.
That MAKES.. perfect sense.
Thanks, Jeff.
H
Lynn:
I said I'd ask 'obvious' questions. Shoot me. *grin*
Part of what's happening to me is that I'm learning to attach a "word" to the actions I am already in the act of performing. Recently, while reading over Lawrence Block's book, I was amazed at how much of what he's saying, I've already experienced--simply; maybe; NOT verbalized it.
I've always been bad at learning how to do things and learning what the proper words for it are. (ie. I can do your bookkeeping for you but I can't 'talk' accounting.) Never had the patience to learn the words -- just learned the "logic" of how to do it. In this case, perhaps, I'm trying to learn the "words" for the action.
But still, you are right in what you say. Thanks.
I'm 45. Been living on a similar planet to most of you veg-E-Tables for some time now. Been playing it, a HELL of a lot, by ear.
Must admit my ear is pretty good. Or so _I_ think.
But I also realize--as I am dead serious about this gig-- that I gotta be SURE about all this, a'fore I dive in. A wee bit ago, I was paddling around in the piddle pool. By way of a few poissons -- Stevo, Harlan, Lawrence, a few of you all, etc. -- I'm standing on the eighty-foot high dive and for some DAMN reason, I've lost whatEVER fear of heights I ever had. And I plan to dive. Again. And again. And again. Just watch me.
But I JUST figured I'd ask the odd bystander--JUST IN CASE I find it necessary to need to do so...
if there is water in the pool and if it's okay if I use the high dive today.
Dat's all the 'obvious' questions are about.
With this writing gig, I feel like I've been PRACTICIN' for it, my whole life long; only it hadn't occured to me to do so--not sure why; all the signs are there and I've never FELT so "in my own skin" about doing something.
But I still figure I should check. Dat's all this crapola is about.
Sos ya know. I ain't makin' any a ya liable or nuttin'. But I just figure I should check....
Cos I gots this great big piece of blank paper (and thanks to people like Steve and Harlan, it's even bigger than I could have imagined) and I plan to write on it -- even if no one reads it; cos I do it..cos _I_ wanna do it.. and that's the best and only reason to do so.
H
Joseph:
Were you thinking of Wendy McElroy's _XXX: A Woman's Right to Pornography_, perhaps?
Or one of the British collections edited by Avedon Carol (who happens to be a longtime SF/Fantasy fan and 'zine writer/editor) -- _Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures_ or _Nudes, Prudes & Attitudes: Pornography and Censorship_?
::DOH:: PRO. not PRE. PRO. Okay - I'm awake now.
L.
Joseph~ Pre-pornography? There was a time when feminism existed and pornography didn't?!
L.
David,
Oh, I'm well aware of how a project can take on a life of it's own, far away from the author. That's why I'm waiting to pass actual judgement until I read the final text. Now if I could just remember the name of that book from the early '90s about pro-pornography feminism....
Regards,
Joseph
Oh, and Joseph -- I'm not wild about the cover, either ... what I can make out of it. I had my own cool idea for cover art -- huge closeup of a human eye with the shadowy figure(s) of a nude female or couple framed in the pupil -- but then, so much of this project is out of my hands now. It's not my title, it's not my cover art, it's not even my manuscript right now (an editor on Manhattan is cutting and rearranging it).
You lose a lot of control of the project once somebody agrees to pay for the trouble of bringing it to life and placing it before the public. So you just have to go along for the ride at that point. I just want it to be over.
Jesus. "Four weeks from the World Trade Center"? Where was my head at? That was supposed to be four blocks, of course.
David,
Congrats on the new book! I'm actually interested to read it and see what you have to say about the subject. Can't say that I'm wild about the cover, but it is kind of a delicate subject (I mean, you can't just have a guy watching a TV, can ya?)
Regards,
Joseph
I highly recommend that everyone go over to www.theonion.com and read the latest The Onion issue (or pick it up, if you're lucky enough to be in a distribution area). They forego the good-natured ribbing for this week and focus purely on satire, for some of the best encapsulation of the mood since the attacks that I've seen. In particular, take a look at the article entitled "God Clarifies 'Don't Kill' Comment." Now THAT'S an editorial. Twain would have been proud.
Regards,
Joseph
The various comments on "amount of description" are all helpful and true, despite their ostensible contradictions. Simply put: different tales call for different amounts of description. Sometimes as a writer, you may know in your gut what works, other times you'll probably go out on a limb ... and you'll encounter readers who regard the results as perfect and others who disagree. That's how it goes. But conciseness is a good rule of thumb to stick by.
The country is getting its sense of humor back. I've seen a suggestion that we flush out the remaining Muslim terrorists stateside by asking all American women to join hands and sing "We Are the World" ... in the nude.
Best political cartoon so far has been Deering of the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, who showed terrified Muslims reading a note that says: "Taliban: Hand over Osama bin Laden or we will send your women to college!"
Monday afternoon, rather by accident, I discovered that my upcoming book is now listed on Amazon, with cover art, price, number of pages, publication date and everything:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1560253606/qid%3D1001369096/sr%3D1-2/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F4%5F2/102-5397235-3276145
While this is exciting, it also makes me very nervous, because my publisher moved to new digs two months ago that turned out to be just 4 weeks from the World Trade Center and I have yet to make contact with anyone there by phone or e-mail. I suspect the folks are all right, but I wonder whether we're going to remain on the schedule they set....
Shame of shames.
That's "spiedies". Not "speedies".
I've simply been away from Binghamton too long, and it's far too early to be thinking of food - even extremely good regional specialties...
Scott: Felix Roma - bakers of the finest, nay, the only true and proper italian bread on which to eat speedies. If I learned nothing else in my five plus years on the southern tier of New York, it is this. And thanks, because now I really want to go to Lupo's in Endicott for lunch, and the one-way six hour drive is more than I think my boss would allow... (If Lupo's is even still in Endicott - my, but how time slips away...)
Re: description. Hit your local library & try to scrounge up the Writer's Yearbook, edited by S. Burack, for 1982. Two articles in there address this nicely. First is Stephen King's "Imagery and the Third Eye." Second is John D. MacDonald's "Creative Trust." They look at the process from slightly different angles. If you can't turn this up in your library & need the citations for the original magazine publications of these pieces, post here or email me & I'll try to scrounge up the original cites.
-- TR
I DID forget someone... (don't worry; unlike previous dia[rrhea]tribes, this will be short).
Cookie: Hello there. I greatly miss NY this time of year. There simply aren't as many trees up here and autumn just isn't as interesting. Plus the trouble I have to go to to get REAL maple syrup.... it could drive a body crazy. I also miss the Finger Lakes and these rolls made by a company called either Mama Roma's or Felix Roma's (I can't remember). Some of my more disreputable family members miss Grandma Brown's baked beans, but I try not to let beans or bean-like substances through my lips.
A word about descriptions in a story: It's good to keep conciseness as a byword. But consider that the experience of the story comes out of the words on the page, and the set of images, ideas, and staging that the reader has in his/her mind. So what the reader comes up with is always unique.
This means that no writer can really expect to create, in the reader's mind, precisely that which he imagined. If you try to be ultra-descriptive, and try to describe every detail as though you were developing the set design for a movie, well, it's just not going to read very well. Not only does this stop the narrative cold, but it forces the reader to focus more on that than the story itself. (Sometimes a lengthy, detailed description can work, but only in special instances. See Ellison's description of the contents of the shop in "Shoppe Keeper.")
On the other hand, this means you can use some very short descriptions, and _evoke_ a lot more than what's on the page. Some writers work with visuals that most people have in their heads already: J.K. Rowling, for example, describes places like Hogwarts and Diagon Alley with a few details here and there, but we sort of know what castles and old English schools and secluded streets of shops are supposed to look like. On the other hand, Hemingway could mention one detail of his scene, and from that, the reader'd get an extremely vivid idea of everything else in the place.
Harlan,
RE: The Flight of the Curmudgeon
The crowd may have been tough, but I'll bet that they all learned something from you. For every person who left that room "offended" or "angry" there were another ten who were enlightened and learned something. I spoke to a woman after the lecture who had never heard of you before, yet she was so stimulated by your knowledge and candor that she picked up a "50 Year Restrospective."
So (A/V problems aside) the lecture was, from my perspective, flawless.
Did I mention that my friends and I loved it?
And again, I thank you for being so amiable, helpful, and warm during our chat afterwards.
-Matt "The guy who says 'like' when he's nervous" Wilkins
I meant "easily found," not "easily available."
Yours in mangling of the English language,
Scott
First off, thanks to David, Michael, Heather, and anyone else I forgot for the warm welcome (wait, did I forget anyone? I think I needs to eat me some carrots).
Heather: I'm a little leery of offering advice to anyone ahead of me in The Craft Of Writing Dept., but one of the areas in which I do have some years of experience is critique groups, creative writing classes, and seminars.
I've got mixed feelings on this subject; I've learned just enough from these sorts of things to not consider them a waste of time, but on the other hand, I've also had to put up with being grouped with people who were even less experienced than I was/am; I had to put up with people who didn't even understand how to write a simple query letter (or who thought that telling an editor that "soon we'll both be rich if you publish my book" was a satisfactory sales pitch); and I had to put up with many, many people, in every group, who did not understand the critique process. I call them the Pod People, simply because their responses tend not only to the vague, but because they always follow one of two patterns:
--"I like this."
--"Something's not quite right about this."
(There are also the Symbolism People, who insist on asking you about the meaning of every little detail including why page 9 happens, in fact, to fall on page 9, which just happens to be a multiple of three, which is apparently a significant number in Symbolic circles; and of course we can't leave out everyone's favorite, The Student Who Feels Superior To Everyone Else, Including The Instructor, But Writes Like A Three-Year-Old Stoned On Children's Tylenol. These people tend to be in the minority in any given group, however, and don't need to be discussed at length.)
I really don't like the Pod People's method of critiquing; it's all right to say "I like this" or "I don't like that," but they never get any more specific than that. At times I've been left staring at my manuscripts, wondering if accountancy is really such a bad career option after all. I can say that these groups really benefit when the group leader/instructor has the skill to keep things organized, and pro writers also tend to be much better instructors than English profs.
On the plus side, I also got a great deal of specific, useful criticism. I learned that my digressions tend to make me lose the thread; I learned how to better structure a story, or how to make a transition more clearly (one of my earliest and biggest problems as a fiction writer; I'd skip right ahead without so much as a "meanwhile," assuming that simply showing the passage of time between two sections was enough for readers to make the jump--I blame this on my time in film school, because in a film, you can show such a transition and make the passage of time obvious, whereas you can't do it in fiction if you haven't got the skill, and I certainly didn't have the skill); I learned how to delineate a character much more cleanly and quickly, a skill which repeated re-readings of Hemingway have helped to ingrain in my skull. Hemingway's work is a great teacher if you want to learn how to work with economy (a skill I certainly haven't mastered yet, or else I wouldn't keep writing long posts).
All in all, I think these groups can be useful IF you know what you want out of them. (For a different opinion, check out Chapter 14 of the "On Writing" section of Stephen King's book, if you haven't gotten that far yet--starts on page 231 in the trade hardback, and I-don't-know-where in the edition you've got. Although I'm struck by the fact that he wasn't too pleased about vague critiques either.) Otherwise, I guess I'd have to agree with the others and recommend that you simply closely reread whatever fiction you happen to be reading. That's what I've done. Specific recommendations: Hemingway's "The Old Man And The Sea," for economy; Raymond Chandler, "The Big Sleep" or "Farewell, My Lovely" or "The Lady In The Lake" for description and a sense of place; and for characterization tips, you can't beat Harlan's essay "Telltale Tics And Tremors," which is easily available in both versions of "The Essential Ellison."
best,
Scott
Heather,
How much description is too much, how much is too little? it seems like you're on the right track, as far as your own writing is concerned. There is a trend in some writing (The Horse Whisperer is a horrible example) of being too "writerly". A line, a paragraph is all you need to tell a reader about a character or place. Sometimes you can encapuslate a character in an action or physical description, like Dashiell Hammett revealing Sam Spade by describing the sharp, v-shaped features of Spade's face, capping it with the impression of a "Blond Satan". The reader can tell Spade is NOT going to be a noble and wartless hero, just from the description.
Keep it lean, and the rest will follow.
Chuck
Heather: Description. Description, description. In the most general sense, one word sums it up nicely: concise. A couple well-worded sentences or even a short paragraph should do it. Also (and you may already be doing this) try to work from a single, crystal-clear image of the object you're describing: this really isn't that much different from writing picture-poems, I think. Once you have this image--and this is most important when you're dealing with characters--put it in the middle of a scene of some sort: the goal here is to intertwine physical description and characterization. This may be and probably is obvious to you, Heather, and I apologize if I'm insulting your intelligence, but...you asked. *grin* Sorry I couldn't be more specific, but, y'see, I suddenly feel like I've been charged with helping a blind person cross the street, and me without my seeing-eye dog.
Oh, well. Hope it helped a bit.
~Jeff
Heather~ The universal answer to all of your obvious questions is: Enough. Not too much. Not too little. Just -- enough.
How much sex? How much swearing? How much violence? How much description? How many big words? How many characters? How much dialect? How much dialogue? How much angst? How many sentence fragments? How many dangling participles? How many commas?
Just -- enough.
This isn't a quantifiable science. As you yourself are so fond of pointing out, it's magic. Each story is a spell, unique and unrepeatable. There is no recipe, there is no teaspoon or tablespoon measure, there isn't even dash or sprinkle or smidgin or skosh or anything!
Just -- enough. That's all.
There are two absolute truths I have learned about this writing business and how to do it well. Absolute truth number one: You must READ. Absolute truth number two: You must WRITE.
The rest is just details.
L.
John:
you said:
"You can't beat studying a great author. If you reread a classic story to see the underlying structure, you can save years of misspent energy. Poe and Dickens and Harlan are also good writers to study, just to see the variety of approaches available to you."
Yes, I know. I can't remember now what I was doing before January of this year when I went wall to wall reading Stephen King (I sucked back the 600 plus page "Bag of Bones" like a cold drink on a hot day--I kinda SCARED me, actually, how quickly I read it) and I found a library large print copy (*laugh*) of his how to book, plus read a number of other how-to like books and pieces of his. And then I found Ellison and did a similar drug addict stint on his stuff as well..
And I find now.. with the little bits of prose I have done, I go to a book like Lawrence Block's how-to (one of a collection of his Writer's Digest columns) and little by little, these points about structure or questions about format, etc. become more and more clear to me.
I'm definitely a "hands-on" type. I learn best by looking at models -- Steve and Harlan being good examples. I'm not sure how well I'd do in a classroom situation as some of what my English major friend has told me about classes she's taken sound a bit.. I dunno..'abstract' or summat.
I do best jumping in the deep end. It's like if I was to play tennis with a player twice my ability. I learn better that way.
New subject: How much description is needed? I jumped from word picture-like poems to short stories. I seem to be doing okay thinking of storylines...
Now.. the question is.. how much description -- broad question there, I know -- does one consider adding?
I realize even Stephen King admits -- as does Lawrence Block -- of digressing a lot, therefore adding to the thickness of a story. I KNOW I won't have any problem digressing--I'm sure YOU know that too. I'm just looking for some feedback again, and how best to gauge this sort of thing.
I plan to ask a lot of "obvious" questions, you might say.
I think I'm similar to you. I understand Harlan's vocab but might not use it myself--though, in the last two months, I've spent a LOT of time looking up words that come to me as I write; I imagine it's simply a matter of doing it that gets you to the point where you are using a larger vocab. (I DON'T think Harlan does it to sound smart, is my point--on someone ELSE, I might believe that; but on Harlan, not the case. But it surprises me from day to day the four dollar words that pop into my head. I'm sure I'll be surprised at myself in a few months with just how many of these so-called BIG words, I use.)
Off to fill a pot of coffee and set out some 'dainties'.
Heather
But seriously ladies and germs...
Michael, you are far too kind. No, I'm not going to go out and enlist, yet (but if I do I'm going Rangers, baby). In regard to your writing suggestion, I do have a somewhat half-assed written record of how I've felt and thought about things in the past, and I'm sure I will continue to cultivate that. Problem is, whenever I do look back at that stuff all I can think is, "Almighty Christ, how is it possible that one man could have ever been such a jackass?" But what can ya do?
Amy- Regretably, I have not had the pleasure of having a duck as a pet. Just a beagle. Beagles, represent!
J
Van Gogh gave his severed ear to a prostitute named Rachel? Well I'll be a striped-ass ape! You learn something new every day, don'tcha?
I'm sorry to hear that the lecture was so difficult, Harlan. THE FOOLS! You do have an open invitation to come lecture in my livingroom, you should be aware of that. A smaller venue, to be sure, but just you wait. Once I get all my old Star Wars figures lined up on the coffe table and bust out with my elderly pet sock, Melville, you will find an endlessly receptive and appreciative audience in an environment that will eerily resemble a packed auditorium of enraptured thousands. Your talk is bound to go down better than the last lecture delivered here at Livingroom I've Never Bothered To Dust Auditorium (for the curious, the prevoius speaker was a Missus Torville from the apartment office, and the subject of her lecture was "Why Expressing Peristaltic Fury By Issuing Detailed and Graphic Threats At the Top of Your Lungs To Inconsiderate Neighbors May Not Be Entirely Wise"). All you have to do is provide the time, effort, money and transportation, while I tirelessly sit around on the couch watching cartoons and waiting for you to show up. This generous offer stands indefinitely. Thank you and good night.
J
Just got back from lunch and had to share this exchange I had on the elevator with a colleague.
Colleague: What's that you're reading?
Me: Ray Bradbury. (Flashing the cover of "Zen In The Art Of Writing") It's a collection of essays on writing.
Colleague: Oh. You into writing?
Me: Yeah, you could say that.
Colleague: Professionally?
Me: Not yet. Perhaps someday.
Colleague: [Looking perplexed.] Why?
Me: [Long pause as I realize he's serious.] It's a sickness. Don't worry. I'm in therapy. [What else am I supposed to say?]
::shaking my head:: People.
Yes, Harlan. It was a tough room. Wonder Bread and marbled rye don't mix well. You challenge the accepted order of things. You leave deep gouges in the veneer of polite society. You dare suggest that flag-waving isn't going to solve our problems. You serve up ten dollar words when speaking to a generation used to dining on MTV sound bites. It is your very nature to seek out the boundaries and push them. At the very beginning of the evening, you acknowledged that the lecture was going to be unlike anything these people had ever experienced. And it was. You made them uncomfortable, perhaps especially so in these post-September 11th days, when people from all walks of life are desperately seeking things to make them feel comfortable, feel safe. The one thing you don't do is make people feel safe.
And that's a good thing. This is not an age for apathy and talking heads. Heavens forbid you expect people to be cognizant of their own failings, their own limitations. (The "Dachau" example still chills me.)
Yours,
L.
Thought everyone might find this interesting.
The Coming Attractions website has posted info regarding "Hardwired" with "some characters and concepts from the I, Robot short stories".
Here's the link
http://www.corona.bc.ca/films/details/hardwired.html
-Andrew
P.S. Something tells me that nothing good can come of this. -AR
In a history of many many hundreds--perhaps, by this time, well into a thousand-plus--lectures I've delivered in venues as disparate and eclectic and oftimes taxing as Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, MIT, Caltech, the London School of Economics, the Sorbonne and Billings, Montana where they took a shot at me as I delivered my talk . . . the one last night, to which Lynn's peachy anecdotal posting makes reference, was one of the most strenuous and actually difficult gigs I can recall. It was a
most odd commingling of demographics, and as "tough a room to work" as recent memory recalls. I'm temporarily at a loss to be more explicable than that. Strange evening.
Joseph~ Subaru used to make a three-cylinder vehicle, the Justy. Three-cylinders AND all-wheel-drive. So if you saw that pebble in the road, you could floor it and go for it!
L.
My wife, who owned a Geo Metro, loved to confound mechanics with the vehicle. It had a certain feature of the engine that always caused mechanics (and my father, an insurance agent for 37 years) to do a double take: a 1995 Geo Metro had three cylinders. Yep, not two, not four, but three. Damned if I could figure it out.
Of course, I always claimed I could hear the hamsters wheezing in the engine as they struggled to propel the car past 45, but I'm a smartass...
Regards,
Joseph
Things I Learned at Harlan's lecture last night at Claremont College:
Fact: Wonder Bread and marbled rye don't mix well.
Fact: Turning your eyelids inside out will scare off any bully. That is, providing you're in the fifth grade or lower.
Fact: It is possible to type 120 wpm on a manual typewriter using only two fingers.
Fact: A 1989 Geo Metro gets 52 mpg in the city, 57 mpg on the freeway.
Fact: Being hit on the head with the trunk lid of a 1989 Geo isn't as painful as one might imagine.
Fact: Creative properties are not "information." They are someone's livelihood.
Fact: In a room full of college students and faculty (perhaps 300 people), half of them won't know what the word "Dachau" represents.
Fact: "Like a prime number, the punchline stands alone." -Daniel Pinkwater
Fact: Radamanthus apparently follows baseball.
Fact: Laughter, true heartfelt belly laughter, can soothe aching hearts and lift despairing spirits. Of course you have to have a sense of humor for this to happen.
Fact: IHOP's Pumpkin Pancakes are pretty darn tasty.
Fact: A person's age is not necessarily linked to the number of years they have lived.
Fact: Donald Duck noises are universally entertaining to babies.
Fact: Nickelodeon's Invader Zim (http://www.nick.com/all_nick/tv_supersites/zim/) is so funny, you won't believe what you're seeing.
Fact: If Susan starts any story talking about an animal, it is advised that for your own sanity, you must cover your ears and sing the "Doom Song" from Invader Zim (or any other sufficiently loud tune) to cover her words.
Fact: Van Gogh gave his severed ear to a prostitute named Rachel.
Fact: If you are going to answer a question that you know you don't know the answer to, the proper response is "Naomi Campbell."
Fact: The perfect cheeseburger consists of a thin patty, cooked extra, extra, extra, extra, extra, EXTRA (that's six extras) well-done, until it's crisp around the edges, two slices of American cheese (one above and one below), bun lightly toasted, nothing else.
Fact: Even a fry cook at the Marie Callendar's in God Town can approach perfection.
More later,
L.
One last thing. Anyone else ever have a duck as a pet? They're super-neat (meant in the cool sense, not the clean sense). I have a pair now that I've had since they hatched. They follow me around the yard like a couple of puppies. Duck eggs are tasty, too.
Amy (also had turtles, tortoises, mice, parakeets, raised a robin...neighbors know me as the weird animal chick)
Michael--there was a time when I would've wholeheartedly agreed with your opinion of cats. That time was, well, my whole life up until about three years ago. I am now a cat (single cat) owner. NEVER thought I'd have one. Didn't like 'em. Saw the remake of "Incredible Journey" and cried over the tearjerky dog scenes, but thought 'oh, look at that, the cat's dead' when the little hairball went over a waterfall. I married a guy who had cats, but they live with his parents now.
Then Fizz came into my life. He is the antithesis of Cat as I knew it. Doesn't scratch us or the furniture (never has). Comes when I call him. Will walk away from ANY food for the chance of a lap snuggle. Plays with my Standard Schnauzer. He genuinely likes to be with people. My husband says he's never seen a cat like him. I can clip this cat's nails without fear of bloodshed--don't even need a helper. He lets me pry open his mouth and shove meds down his gullet when necessary. He has never been anything but a total sweetheart.
Now, I realize that MOST cats aren't like Fizz--hey, I worked as a vet assistant and got my share of wounds--but I must grudgingly admit that they don't all suck. And I'm as doggy a dog person as you can get.
Amy
Harlan quoted something in his "Saturn, November 11th" -- published in "Stalking the Nightmare", Berkley edition -- by an anonymous New York Times writer, concerning the difference between real crises and fake crises and how no one knows what comes next. It's a graceful and prescient snippet, which has been looming to mind ever since the 11th of September. Harlan's legal fight has made me freshly chary of doing certain things, such as reproducing that paragraph here. So: go buy whatever collection "Saturn" is currently in, and you'll know what I'm talking about.
Someone mentioned psychics being finished by this. By the vagaries of e-mail lists I intercepted one offering by Scottish psychic David Spangler, saying that he had been unable to "tune in properly," having encountered a "powerful maelstrom or cloud of psychic energy." Other explanations are likely to be forthcoming...
Hey, Brian: No pretense at any exceptional control over our government did I intend by my "attack dogs" comment; just the usual amount of fractional, remote, frequently after-the-fact control we Americans are raised on the premise of having as citizens, and as compulsory contributors to the dogs' care and feeding. But my tiny fraction (even tinier because I didn't vote for the commander-in-chief) is nevertheless committed. And hell, I'm just an artist, not even a high-verbal.
Fiercely defending my lil' shotgun-shack,
Mark Z
Goddammit, I SURVIVE! Howdy, folks! (said in best imitation Big Tex, which frankly isn't so great) Life is better, and therefore, so am I. I apologize for my overload posts of several weeks ago, and appreciate the concern of Lynn and others.
Harlan, I need a favor. I'm going to Shreveport, LA on October 13, and I desperately need some of your blackjack luck. Y'see, if I win for a change, I can come see you and Neil Gaiman in Wisconsin. So please, wish away some of my innate bad juju. I'll repay in baked goods. Cherry!
your pixiesque friend,
Amy
p.s. - Gir is freaking hilarious. Thanks for the heads-up.
David - thank you for the proper attribution - not quite what I had hoped, but hey, it is a Shakespeare quote...
9:00 pm -
10:00 pm
Author Neil Gaiman - who are the American Gods? chat at
SCIFI.com
From "daily wire" for 9/25/01 on yahoo.com
Heather, if you can get your hands on it, I would recommend a book-length interview with Michael Moorcock entitled "Death Is No Obstacle." He discusses how to structure several types of stories. Very informative. When you're starting out (and believe me, I am still learning myself), structure is the support you need...to protect your storyline from going off the rails. I found this title, a British import, through Southern California's own Dangerous Visions bookstore (they have a mail-order service and website as well).
And if you can't find this particular book, just read some of Moorcock's work. We're talking about a guy who's written mainstream epics, fantasies and mind-bending science fiction. I admire versatility and lyricism most of all and his work contains both.
You can't beat studying a great author. If you reread a classic story to see the underlying structure, you can save years of misspent energy. Poe and Dickens and Harlan are also good writers to study, just to see the variety of approaches available to you.
Nay, Heather.
T'was I who spake of the facial interplay with cats and dogs.
You don't actually believe I'm going to let Lynn take the credit for that do you?
Hm. I tried writing like Harlan once, just as an exercise, and out of curiosity (I'd just read Stephen King's piece in Edgeworks)---didn't work. Not at all. First and likely foremost because I couldn't summon the vitriol. I'm a very even-tempered person and it's rare that I get worked up over anything. Also I must say that there is a large discrepancy between my recognized and functional vocabularies, which wouldn't matter so much if I was Hemingway (cough...hah)...but Harlan's work tends to have quite a few words that I understand but never actually would use.
Also, anyone who has had a dog knows that a cat is a sorry excuse for an animal companion. Maybe I'm just saying that because the last two cats I have come into contact with have both drawn blood. (Maybe b/c I smelled like dog?) Birds are a lot of fun to watch, for some reason. I have seen a cockatiel climb a 3-foot-high pencil-thick metal pole using only its beak (its wings were clipped). Weird.
Oh, and Brian, how could you POSSIBLY hate cats? They're just NEAT little creatures. And Lynn's right (was it Lynn?) about them having facial expressions. I still remember a cat I had once--GAWD the looks and sneers he could give me.
Oh, yes, Brian, I think it's fun to have a creature that can just go "wwwtt.." with his tiny paw.. and make nice little scratches or punctures on your arm or hand. (I still have a scar on my right wrist and forearm from a cat that took off on my arm when she was scared by her "brother" the doberman -- told you I've had a strange life--and this happened in the early eighties. Gawd.. and I still have the scar!)
*laugh* I'm being silly. I like cats, dogs AND birds. Went through a pigeon phase on my 14th floor balcony in Toronto a few years back. You DON'T wanna know about some of the stuff I did. BUT..
Learned about birds. What amazing creatures. Changed my view on the creatures I see skittering around in the park or wandering in the alleyways or on the rooftops.
And don't you just LOOOVE that pigeon shit?
Snort.
I could tell you... but I won't. But it was neat.
Heather, who's held babies -- so soft -- and watched them learn to fly. SO cool!
Jim: I'll see if I can find "Endless Love"--thanks. *smile*
Matt Wilkins: Yes, point taken. I plan to.
What's really weird with this writing gig for me is, I feel like I'm starting at absolutely square one (which is good, as I don't let a lot of my past reading experiences influence my style). Of all things, when I first started in on this writing pursuit, I wrote poems. I NEVER used to read poems; but there I was WRITING them.
I've since moved to little bits, here and there, as you've seen, for example, on THIS site. And, due to something I am considering writing, I got to this "sex" issue. (I read some Lawrence Block last night. He agrees with you on the thought of writing what works for YOU, never mind what others say or think).
It's so strange--perhaps others have experienced this; I don't know--my SENSE of how to do.. this.. is at absolutely fucking ground zero--though I realize I'll pick up speed at I start to attempt these different things. (I can't write like a twenty-year old cos I ain't one. I'll end up writing like a 45-year-old. I can't wait!)
But there is SUCH a world of difference between reading someone else's story.. and writing your OWN story.
Emulate anyone? I have no worries about that. I realize Harlan has brought me to a larger WORLD, let us say, by showing me what he writes about and some of the particular "styles" (for lack of a better word) he uses. I really hadn't realized you could DO some of the things he's showed me, in his writing.
And I'm exciting by the prospects of creating some of it myself. It excites me in a way that NOTHING has.. for a very, very, very long time.
It's like I said when I arrived here, "Dammit, I wish I'd come across this Ellison guy sooner."
Heather, who recalls leaving the apartment this moring, thinking about what's changed for her in the last year, and she answered, "I'm a writer." And I meant it. Good lord!
Welcome, Scott, you're doing fine.
Oh, and as I haven't mentioned it LATELY, so do the rest of you people. Thanks for your thoughts and your thinking--all of you.
Heather, reading voraciously
Justin:
Oh, and I was reading your web school's website.
Try this URL:
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/95/23/03_1_m.html
Heather
Justin, you said:
"but these terrorist groups need to be torn limb from limb before they get their hands on a nuke or start releasing chemical/biological agents on us or our allies. We can't even be sure that they don't have those materials at their disposal right now. We need to go after these people, and if I feel compelled to join the fight, I'm not going to shiver and hide behind my inherent cynicism and say, "Nope, sorry, I'm just not 100% sure I'll always be doing the right thing over there."
I have a good sense of where you are coming from--I know your intentions are good; but I STILL have a problem with comments of the above nature.
The issue here is, they coulda had these bombs and shit and things before. Therefore, it woulda been JUST as logical to pull out an argument like this BEFORE the WTC was destroyed, and "tear the buggers -- whoever they were or whoever we needed them to be -- limb from limb."
I realize my discussing it now isn't going to change your viewpoint and we can agree to disagree.
But my point is this: why does it always have to start in this corner of the thinking? Why do we always have to start with the idea of "let's get them; they're probably up to no good and plan to do something worse--it strikes me as a formula for escalation on both sides and no one, longterm, wins but the bomb manufacturers.
I don't try too hard with arguments like this: I realize it's a common kind of thinking with a lot of people; for a lot of different reasons.
No, I'm not preaching pacificism or tree hugging for stuff like that. All I know is that in my generation and a few generations before mine, someone USED this ideology and all we ended up with was a lot more dead people--I don't really think you OR I can fathom just how many people died in these wars; not really, NOT really, Justin--whether they were they soldiers, civilians or workers in an office tower. I've had ONE close friend in my lifetime die. She was 29. I really don't think I could fathom thousands or millions--not really. And maybe, that's partly the problem with a lot of us. We have NO idea.
I read a phrase the other day that "war is akin to rape"--rape is a man's game and it's no wonder men like war. I don't completely stick with that chauvinistic, idea as I think, these days, if you got enough women being sent off to war, they'd quickly develop the similar rationale you and others seem to be displaying--it's called cognitive dissonance. There's even a weird little phrase floating around in my head of "well, that's the way it's always been done before. That's the way we should be doing it now."
We need to FIND another way. That's all I'm saying. The same way that the offline companies need to find another way to view the uses of the Internet. The Internet is unlike ANYTHING we've ever encountered before and I envision a lot of changes in our world, because of it. (This copyright situation is a good example, but it is but the TIP of the iceberg, as far a I'm concerned.) We live in a different time, different place, with a little more experience under our belts about what these situations can engender. And, I simply don't believe that sticking a knife in my belt and headed off to kill someone -- they may not even be the right ONES -- is going to solve anything.
Oh, it's gonna make some people feel better in the short-term; maybe even longer; some young guy who's full of the need to show his worth to the world will get his chance to get his belly full--I know that's important at a young age (and older).
I just wish, to Christ, it didn't haven't to involve pointing a gun or a bomb at someone. I'm simply at the point in my life/development/whatever where I find that kind of thinking "alien" to me.
The universe is neither just nor unjust; it simply IS. It's up to us to interpret it and the things that go on in it and think hard about what happened before and what could happen again.
And living in either fear or anger is a shitty way to go.
Just my view. As you were.
Heather
David,
Very nicely stated and I thoroughly agree. Another quote, from King Henry VI, went something like, "Hung be the heavens with black, yield day to night!" An event I believe we'll see if we don't cite the errors of our ways (and to cover my ass from the blind patriots out there I don't believe "we brought it on our selves"; but our actions of the past were a factor and how we view ourselves in the world now will determine our actions in the future).
Personally, I DON'T expect great things from GWB; I don't trust his gang of big oil friends who are drooling over the north slope of Alaska, or for that matter his stupid insistence on developing a costly missile defense system that will accomplish nothing but make a bunch of his buddies even wealthier.
This administration has hypcrisy written all over it: getting elected on the usual "we gotta shrink big government" and "leave it to the free market" line, then promptly creating a new cabinet post, giving billions to the airline industry which wasn't cutting it even BEFORE the terrorist bombings, and realizing "gee, maybe private enterprise isn't up to the job of airport security."
Not that I was terribly fond of the other guy, but I got a kick out of a bumpersticker I saw over the weekend: "Reelect Gore in 2004."
Oh, and Xanadu: the line "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon 'em [sic]" is from Shakespeare's _Twelfth Night_. If I remember correctly, Sir Toby Belch and Maria insert that line into a letter to Malvolio pretending to be from his employer, Lady Olivia, as a joke on him. So, like the oft-quoted lines from buffoonish Polonius, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be...," Shakespeare may have written them largely with tongue planted in cheek.
Actually, I retract one line: I think 1951 provides an outstanding measuring stick for the progress we've made in this country; but not with a connotation that those were years to be terribly proud of.
Rich
Straight out, I'm sayin' the country sucked big time 50 years ago, as a land still reserved primarily for whites; "'even' better" implies we were rather doin' rip-roarin' well, at least to me. I just don't think that was a very effective measuring stick. Thus, I thought I'd use that burr up my butt to reinforce my key argument. I hope the latter was at least clear to you. N' I think I have a damn good point, even if I'm the only one here to say so. So there, quibble-meister.
This works for me. This argument is exactly what should be happening - and I'm glad it's here.
Brian - you almost hand me my points in order - The idea that the US is uniquely placed in this conflict is clear to everyone involved - we are the aggrieved party, we are the only superpower, and as such, we have the military and economic might to pull this off, and we are probably the best damn country on the planet - despite the grievious and horrific acts of our past. (As an aside - name one country that hasn't precipitated terrible things in their history - you can't because there aren't any. This is a history, after all, of the human race.)
You proceed to list a few "what-if's" - I smile, because in every single case the only country in a position to do anything about any one of them is the US. (Like the United Arab Emerates, or any other country, are going to dictate changes in US policy.)
You are unwilling to grant any of our leaders any of the nobility of our forefathers - they haven't earned it. Yet, in the same breath, you will gladly heap every awful thing ever linked to US on them in full measure. Well - I have a problem with that - 'cause, you see, they didn't earn that either. Sins of the father, as well as virtues, cannot be laid upon their children. (And don't think I don't recognize the irony at play here with Bush Jr.)
Someone, I'm sure, will hand me the attribution of this quote fragment (I'm sorry, but the source does not come to mind at this moment) - "..and some men have Greatness thrust upon them."
Hell, for all we know, at some point in the future Bush could be judged as one of America's greatest presidents, of this or any century. (It's not intrinsic in the man, but alone of any of the presidents in my 34 year life, he has the opportunity to do the greatest good. - And believe me, I am unutterably heartened that we have not already bombed anything - this does speak volumes.)
You have already judged our leaders as monsters or worse - I just can't go there - not yet - but we are facing known monsters, in bin Laden, and his ilk. As I said before, (funny how this all ties in together), perception is the key to all of this - you see "the lesser of two evils" - I instead, see "which side is more likely to get me were I want to go" - and when you look at it that way - there really isn't any choice.
Rob - I almost hate to do this - but the quote you use - "we?re EVEN better than we were 50 years ago" - which you attribute to me in your first response - is wrong. I said, "The US of 2001 is a better place than the US of even 50 years ago, the US of 2051 will stand similarly advanced."
This misquote invalidates your argument - since we agree that the US of 1951 weren't so hot.
But your point is well taken anyway - and I think you answer it well - the mere fact that we aren't carpet bombing countries - that all of our leaders are stressing the vital need to differentiate between Islam and madmen - and the fact the Bush acknowledges that the tactics of the past will not work here are an important indicator that despite our misgivings concerning the man, he IS aware of our history and he IS making informed decisions based on it.
He may make a whole slew of new mistakes, I don't know - my crystal ball is in the shop - but he may not. In any case - he is the guy in charge.
And one last thought before I close this unending post - dispite America's complicity - most of the awful things attributed to us were, in fact, the actions of others - the fact that we supported and trained Noriega, Hussein, bin Laden and others doesn't reduce their direct culpability for their monsterous actions. And this ties in with my argument of another day - the best answer for bad or criminal behaviour is punishment - swift and terrible.
Punishment is the answer - deciding the best way is the conundrum.
Rob,
Having re-read your statements and Xanadu's original statement, I still don't know what point you were trying to make and what the word "even" had to do with it since Xanadu was using it as a reference point (like "even 100 years ago" or "even 75 years ago"). I took Xanadu's statement as meaning nothing more than what it said: "The US of 2001 is a better place than the US of even 50 years ago." I would agree with that statement.
Having said that, I do agree with you on the rest of your treatise and have no quibbles with you on that. I don't even have any quibbles regarding the word "even".
Your friend for a quibble-free future,
Rich
Jeez, get a cold for a couple of days, and look what you miss…
Regarding this latest line of discussion: yes, the US has done terrible things to other countries. Yes, we have also done beautiful things, though I am the first to admit that they do not outweigh the bad. Yet I cannot accept any point of view that says “We brought this upon ourselves.” The people who were killed in the tragic events of September 11th (including six of my friends, who never uttered an unkind word against ANY foreign national and/or faith) did nothing whatever to deserve what happened. Do I feel that we need to retaliate against those responsible? Well, not as such...but I DO feel that we need to let them know that this behavior will not be tolerated. Ever. Should that involve military action? Yes, if necessary. Do I believe that our government will screw that up horribly?
...to be honest, very likely. Yet I still maintain that they SHOULD take action. I find that I do not so much desire vengeance for losing people I love, but I have a deep and abiding conviction that those responsible must know that they will not be allowed to do that again. Ever, ever, ever.
Ch-ching! 2 cents.
Scott: the fact that you are worried is a source of great hope to me. As long as someone your age is thinking about these things, we have a future.
And finally: Justin, m’boy! Glad to see you reaching out again, if only electronically. Even more glad to hear that you have eschewed the fraternity lifestyle! It could only lead to conflict with those values that I know have harbor in your pallid, soon-to-be-more muscular breast. It makes me proud to see you stand by your convictions no matter what, however, let me again plead with you not to join up, at least not right now. I know of your feelings and respect for the military, but given the timing inherent in the armed forces, chances are you would never be involved in whatever action is to come. You have a rare gift for language; perhaps the best thing you can do right now is just write. Write about what is happening around you, and how you feel about it (and that goes for all you other writers as well, ‘though I’m sure such puerile advice is unnecessary). If nothing else, you can look at your words twenty years from now and say, “Oh, yeah, that’s who I was back then.” Not to mention the fact that I am tired of losing friends. I need to know you’re still around.
On that note, something to all of you: I want to thank you for your words of encouragement and advice to my young friend Justin, especially from you, Mr. Ellison. I may give him a hard time in the name of friendship, but I think he is everything a young person should be, intelligent, irreverent, iconoclastic and inquisitive (oh, stop blushing, asshole!). I know that your comments have a positive impact on his life and thinking. It’s refreshing to see people so willing to help a stranger...and they don’t come much stranger than Justin!
‘cept me, of course.
Yours in Kleenex,
Michael
Rich,
Well...nothing I say is ever obtuse.
Since you left one word out of my quote you misinterpreted misrepresented my point. I said "...EVEN better than it was 50 years ago". That means I'm making a point. The point being 50 years ago - in other words, 1951 - we had a helluva leap to make in social maturity (although, Xanadu MIGHT have had that in mind). "Even" doesn't sound like much of an acknowledgment there The 60's would ring the wake-up call for the need to re-evaluate ourselves. Now we're facing a new wake-up call; possibly the biggest and most complicated in our history. Xanadu made some important points because when any nation is wounded morale is so damn vital. My own central point is, because the conditions are so unusual, this is precisely the time to look at our own policies of the past - not to play the "blame game" but to map out the right counter-measures. "Know thy enemy", right? In this case, as most of us seem to understand, we need to discriminate the Muslim culture from the Extremists. Fer instance, if we understood them better we wouldn't be using so loosely terms like "crusade". Most in those regions have a differnt interpretation of that word; one that rings of disturbing generallizations. We don't want this to become "our God" versus "their God".
Having said that I do believe we're covering these bases, at least to a good degree. Only the long stretch will show if it's sufficient. Covert activity is going to have to dominate this war. But I believe some ingenious creative thinking is going to have to be implemented. East Germany was like a mine field of espionage during the Cold War; this is going to have to be more like the hydrogen bomb of espionage. I worry about this conflict degenerating into a guerilla war, which we cannot win. Likewise, we can't go around massacring innocent populations. And then, of course, there's the terrible anxiety of bacterial warfare. These are the dimensions of the complexity here at the most superficial level. So, much of the work has to be done from the inside; to do so we have to understand the people over there. To do so we need to look carefully at where we went wrong in the past.
David,
Sometimes those "little old ladies" will surprise you. Though many of them are quite happy to keep re-reading the books of their adulthood, many of them get bored and llok for somethign a little different. I noticed this in my bookstore days, where I would quite often have a request from a nice older lady to try something a little different from the latest Jayne Krentz (who, by the way, I was quite amused to see had a blurb for Hamilton's "Obsidian Butterfly," a book that could not be further from Krentz's writing). It was actually a highlight of my day to try and come up with something that was still in these customers area of interest, and yet would help them to strecth their reading skills a bit.
Regards,
Joseph
Peg: a similar version of your malice v. incompetence comment, attributed to David Reisman (sociologist famous for a book called _The Lonely Crowd_) -- "It is more comforting to think of villainy than muddle."
Scott Miller: Your contributions are just fine. Welcome, friend. And though there are a lot of young people out there who are dumb and who vote, the good news is that not many of them do! Voter turnout is consistently low among teens and twenty-somethings.
Wish I could remember the name and properly credit the person who wrote, nearly a century ago, "I'm no longer young enough to know everything."
Heather mentioned the surprising lack of HE books in libraries (not to mention bookstores; we know why they're unavailable in used bookstores: folks like us snap them up pronto! But why are HE books so un-plentiful on the shelves of new bookstores?)
When I lived in southwestern Oregon, over a decade ago, the local library had a book talk series, where patrons could give a little lecture on a favorite author to other patrons (mostly little old ladies, I must admit). I did an hour on Ellison, of course. Shortly thereafter, I noticed some HE additions to the Douglas County Library collection, including _Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed_. Just one of my many good deeds.
I'm going to make sure that when I die, my Ellison collection gets neatly and appropriately divided between some of my favorite libraries, from Harvard on down....
Wow! So much writing. I'll try to get back and read more later but a couple of quickies:
Peg: Yep. I think many American evils are less about evil intentions and more about plain not thinking things through. When I was in HS, I was on the debate team. My first year, the topic was about arms proliferation. Even back then, I remember arguing that selling arms in other countries was bound to come back to bite us. I found it harder to argue the other side.
A special welcome to Scott because his childhood home is right next to my adult home! Hi, Scott. You sound like me---tell me something is banned or forbidden, and I rush right out to read or do it. I, too, have had to look up a lot of things in Harlan's books. That's okay. I like to learn new stuff.
Finally, my husband and I were talking about the "blame game" and we came to the conclusion that if you gotta blame something, you gotta blame world history. Looking back is important, but if we don't look forward and ALL try something different, we're doomed.
Xanadu,
Thanks for putting into words what I've been struggling with elucidating (which is why I haven't been weighing in on this discussion). We'll just have to try harder, to build on the good things of our progress, while we try our damndest to eliminate the bad side of our progress.
Regards,
Joseph
Thankyou, Peg, for stating so succinctly the reason the US always gets its ass bit down the line. Though, I think, another statement to explain policies that come back and haunt us 10 years later: It seemed like a good idea at the time.
To Rob, and to a lesser extent, Brian:
Look. We're doing the best we can with what we've got. Could we do better? Sure. And because we haven't bombed the shit out of anyone just yet speaks volumes of how we're tackling this particular problem. Is it a problem we made? Maybe. The fact is no one knows for sure what digression a policy we put in place will take ten years later. Given all information at the time, it seemed like a good idea. And I think, for the most part, we recognize our mistakes and try to rectify them when pointed out to us. And pointing out those mistakes is OUR job.
Now, we can navel-gaze and berate ourselves to infinity (and beyond), but we shouldn't let uncertain futures dictate actions we do today. I'm not saying we shouldn't question ourselves in any action we take, but questioning to the point of inaction benefits no one.
And Rob, I think you're being obtuse when you say you don't know what Xanadu meant when "we are better than we were 50 years ago". Yeah, there's racism and minorities are still the minority and have all the baggage that goes along with being a minority, but we (and I mean everyone, majority and minority) ARE better off than we were fifty years ago. Take the blinders off and look around you.
Regarding atrocious US actions of the past... I try to keep in mind this variant of occam's razor:
Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.
Not sayin' that's true 100%, but it's gosh darn gotta be true more than it isn't.
Xanadu,
Here's where I have to disagree:
Even that abecedarian Bush concedes in the few words he got right that the solution to this new type of war will be complicated and variant. No type of reprisal used in the past will serve our purposes in the long run. In effect, "claiming that we may bear some responsibility for this problem" is actually an essential link in the long chain of factors for the right solution. In other words, to formulate the necessary tactics for the desired outcome we have to understand the complicated reasons that led up to the tragedy; if our policies of the past were in ANY way responsible THIS is PRECISELY the time to re-evaluate ourselves. If we are to excise the dispicable Taliban (along with, ideally, the other would-be little Hitlers of the Middle East) how will it be done? Once they’re gone how do we administer our policies and corporate interests thereafter? Will we understand the cultures of the Middle East better? Or will we still go around using the word "Crusade" like an uneducated American, forgetting the three bloody centuries cemented in the collective memory of the Muslim world the west brought down on them in the self-righteous name of Christianity? (And,I must add, I’m not sure what you mean by "we’re EVEN better than we were 50 years ago". I mean, we've a long way. But to an AWFUL lot of people who weren’t white - inside and out of the country -we were a pack full of hypocritical assholes; keep in mind, those victimized by those times would remember it and feel it more than you or I ever could).
No. To have a complete vision of the necessary strategy, to understand what’s in order, we have to look at our own mistakes NOW - as though it were part of drawing a military map for the battle field. Facing our own blunders and evils of the past is simply going to have to be part of that battle and the path to greater maturity (an issue you did emphasize). That’s why I firmly believe this to be an issue of world unity not blind patriotism (particularly, after all, since people from different nations were in those towers when they came down). I was moved today by the massive image on the tube of our diverse population (including, very importantly, Arab-Americans) for precisely that reason.
Hokay, Brian...yes, I would have to agree wholeheartedly that when the US fucks up we fuck up big time, and we're usually far enough away from the consequences not to have to give those mistakes too much thought. When major atrocities have been commited by the US (nuking Japan and Operation Rolling Thunder spring readily to mind), we do actually hear about them and continue to ponder them years later--at least some of us do--but we always manage to justify them, however feeble or based on misinformation those justifications may be. I'm with ya, and I think the reasons why our mistakes are so huge is because we are the A #1 SUPREME WORLD FRIGGIN SUPERPOWER! We operate on a huge scale, and the actions and policies of the United States are usually likely have a bigger impact on the world as a whole than those of any other nation. Just don't forget: that applies to the good we do, as well as the evil.
You remarked, "I'm saying that their actions have caused terrific ruin in the rest of the world, that they were probably well aware of the consequences, and that this has been a part of state policy." I would have to see some hard evidence that individuals within our government sat down on numerous occasions, twirling their mustaches, trying to figure out how to intentionally destroy the lives of thousands of foreign innocents, and do so without any justificaiton whatsoever. I don't think it happens, and to assume that it does makes our government officials sound a lot more insidious than is perhaps entirely necessary. I don't trust the swine any more than you do, but why should we be asked to assume that the people we trust with our security as a nation are a bunch of hideous evildoers bent on the propagation of human suffering?
Yes, the U.S. has made a number of mistakes and commited a number of UNFORGIVABLE crimes...but don't forget that we are the nation of cowboys responsible for pimp-slapping the Axis powers, and quite often when disaster strikes in other countries (earthquakes, environmental catastrophes, food and medicine shortages, etc.), while the United States is rarely able to go in and completely band-aid the situation, there is always a team of U.S. aid workers on a plane flying in to help out. How many billions of dollars in aid and disaster relief have we spent over the years, helping other nations? I'm too lazy and have far too much MTV to watch to be bothered to look up the exact figures at 1:04 AM, but here's the point: we do good, we do evil. We do both on a massive scale. We piss some people off, we make others quite happy. We kill lots of people, we save countless lives. The hands of our nation are bloodied quite often, but we're not an evil country. We ARE a country that has been attacked, and we ought to respond with the same ruthlessness our enemies have shown us. The alternative seems a great deal more dangerous and deadly, at least to U.S. citizens. If people are going to be killed because of terrorism, I'd rather that the people being sacrificed are not mine. It's not a very nice thing to say, but I was sick the day they were handing out easy lives free from conflict, ambiguity, and tough choices.
In an attempt to mend my old "glurge-riffic" ways, I caught myself rambling on at the end of my previous post and decided to separate the general stuff.
To wit:
I'm only 24 years old and fairly low down on both the Amount Of Lifetime Knowledge Accumulated chart (right underneath sphagnum moss) and the Talented Writer Scale (where I probably fall beneath the bottom of the list, along with Sidney Sheldon and those nameless souls who write pieces such as "101 Exciting Things To Do With String" for cereal boxes, although they might be much more talented; it's hard to tell when you have that little of an incentive to write well). Certainly I know where I rank amongst the rest of you (at the bottom). I have no pretensions on that score.
As far as knowledge goes, too, I'm handicapped. When HE mentioned Bert Williams and Edith Piaf in his Onion interview, I had no idea who they were until I looked them up. In school, even such a mildly controversial theory such as plate tectonics was kept out of the schoolbooks, because fundamentalists controlled the school board, and, thus, the texts that could be used in class (we weren't allowed to read "The Catcher In The Rye," either, so, in grandiose overreaction, not only did I read it, I plunged into the works of James Joyce shortly afterwards, simply because he was on the "iffy" list; not surprisingly, I nearly didn't make it, but I did fall in love with "Dubliners" and "Portrait of The Artist As A Young Man"). This was during my childhood in Dryden, NY (a big "hello" to all Webderlanders in New York State; my thoughts are with you). Since then, my education has mainly consisted of me trying to fill all the gaps in my knowledge.
Haven't even come close yet.
I'm offering myself as proof of Harlan's contentions: Many of us young'uns don't know shit. Worse yet, unlike me, there are some out there who don't seem to care.
And I see people my age and younger advocating that an entire country be bombed back into the Stone Age when the Soviets already did so years ago because of a few despots and the coordinated work of what seems to be many terrorists in an unknown number of countries. And I see them advocating immigration restrictions for all Muslims. And I realize that these are people who don't know or care about anything that happened before, say, 1995; and I realize that they have the right to vote.
I'm just a little worried about this. Just a bit. And I am not comforted when I realize that this is far from being a new phenomenon... because it increases the number of seriously ignorant, angry people out there who think they have a right to decide what happens to the rest of the world even if they aren't intellectually capable of making an informed decision. Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating fascism or totalitarianism or any other dangerous, restrictive form of government that comes with such -isms. I simply wish it was easier to make sure that these were not the people who get heard the most often simply because they are the loudest.
As for me, well, I hope you'll understand how intimidated I feel when I post here. And why I'm worried.
Lynn: Thanks very much for the kind welcome. I would've responded in a much more timely fashion, had I not been away for the last week or so. As far as the quotation marks around pagan: I deeply apologize. I should have just never used those quotation marks in the first place. I have nothing against pagans, Wiccans, or any religious person of any persuasion who is free of this sort of hatred (and there are many, many such people). I do have a monstrous chip on my shoulder for people like Falwell (and Robertson). Speaking of whom, thank you also for correcting me on that matter; in my rush to denounce their hateful cruelty and stupidity and insensitivity, I made a hypocrite out of myself by tarring the wrong man with the right bush (sort of like the man who speeds 49 days in a row, then gets wrongly ticketed on the fiftieth day; Robertson deserves criticism, but on this occasion, he didn't actually say anything).
Best,
Scott
Response to Xanadu
Your first point, about the U.S. being "the only country capable of doing what needs to be done," isn't something I'd agree with at all. For one thing, it seems to assume a _lot_ about what needs to be done-- and that sort of stacks the question so that the only answer is "The U.S."
Suppose that "what needs to be done" requires changing a lot of the U.S.'s current foreign policies-- say, using our support of Israel's military as leverage to ensure the creation of a Palestinian state, or stopping the sanctions against Iraq which have killed hundreds of thousands of otherwise innocent people. This may very well be necessary to reduce terrorism-- it'd certainly undercut a lot of the reason that people join the likes of bin Laden. But this'd require acknowledging that the U.S. has _contributed_ to the growth of terrorism, and the matter of "saving face" kind of ensures that the U.S. isn't likely to do this.
As for the argument that the U.S., for all of its faults, is better than the alternatives... well, I'd mentioned that in my earlier note. As for the comment about "faults, failures, foibles and fuckups," well, I'd have to say that the U.S.'s actions haven't been as trivial as those words make them sound.
For example, Clinton's attacking the pharmaceutical plant at Al Shifra could be seen as a mere "fuckup." But that was done on almost no real evidence, didn't need to be done at all, and wound up eliminating the major source for pharmaceuticals for that region. The consequences of that attack are _gigantic_. Or, take the U.S.'s support of Saddam Hussein, which continued even after he gassed Kurdish dissidents-- would you call that a mere mistake, or an indication that the U.S.'s policies involve supporting murderous dictators?
In other words, when I say that our leaders are not on the side of civilization, I'm not saying that they're well-meaning dopes who make mistakes with huge consequences. I'm saying that their actions have caused terrific ruin in the rest of the world, that they were probably well aware of the consequences, and that this has been a part of state policy. My analogy to a bunch of corrupt cops was not lightly chosen.
Reharding your point that "Claiming that we may bear some responsiblity for this problem may be accurate in fact, but it makes the wrong point at the wrong time," doesn't convince me. (And the analogy about the burning house just doesn't apply here.) Given that we're faced with a consequence of our nation's policies, it seems an extremely _important_ time to remind people of these facts. After all, if the house burns down, one does wnat to understand _why_ the fire started-- even if you have to get out _first_.
Your comment about my "dismissing" the sacrifices of people in the armed forces is, well, off-base. I don't regard their sacrifice as trivial-- I think it's a fucking _sin_ that their lives are thrown away on battles for the likes of our leaders. I can honor a soldier's patriotism, and his or her desire to serve the country... but I must _hate_ the way that those desires are cynically used by corrupt leaders on meaningless, wasteful, and murderous adventures.
HARLAN:
This past Saturday afternoon in Roanoke Virginia, the membership of the Two-Fisted Writers and Artists (TFWA) saluted and paid their respects to a great writer whose work has spanned every medium and six decades; Nelson Slade Bond, and his wife, Betty.
It could not have gone better, and it was largely due to your willingness to send me a few words of respect and affection. I also received tributes from Algis Budrys, SilverBob, Jack Williamson, John Betancourt of Wildside Press, Peter Ruber of Arkham House, Mike Ashley, and Jack Cullers of PulpCon.
As each of the tributes were read, Nelson and Betty beamed more and more, nodding and smiling as they remembered past meetings or correspondence with you. (When Jack Williamson's was read, Nelson cleared his throat and said loudly enough for the group to hear, "You know, Jack is six months older than *I* am!")
And Harlan, I saved yours for the last. He looked a little quizzical at first (I had instructed the various members who read the tributes to not mention the senders' names until the end of the tribute), but as your note got warmer and warmer, he smiled more and more. When I read the last line - "Your pal, Harlan Ellison," he laughed and good-naturedly explained to the Gathered what it was all about. I think he enjoyed yours most of all, Bubba, and he says it's absolutely okay for you to send him your copy of Mergenthwirker to sign. Contact me off-line and I'll send you his address, unless you already have it.
At the end, the printed-out tributes were presented to Nelson. He kept pulling them out of the envelope and paging through them one by one; he was obviously touched and moved by them all.
For the rest of the afternoon, he and his wife were in high spirits and humor, telling jokes and signing the copies of the Wildside Press edition of _Lancelot Biggs: Spaceman_ that John Betancourt generously provided. We then presented him with a certificate of honor, and Betty with an arrangement of her
favorite flowers, roses.
Guy, you are da BOMB. You couldn't have done me a greater service, or Nelson more proud, had you come in person. At the age of 90+, to be recognized by your peers and feted by a roomful of new fans (a friend of mine bemoaned the fact that he'd not read any of Nelson's stories, until he began thumbing through the Wildside book and realized that he'd read it when he was a kid) when you were sure you'd been long forgotten....Well,
you made more than just his day.
I am eternally grateful to you, Harlan Ellison, and I hope that someday I can do you a service one one-hundredth as wonderful as you've done me.
Hell, I'll even stop telling people you wrote _The Golden Spike_.
Brian - Just a quick note - 2 cents from my neck of the cyberwoods, in no particular form and with no particular coherence.
You have a dilemma - you see a "Clear and Present Danger" in the form of bin Laden and his ilk, yet you also see that the US, girded in the cloak of "righteousness" and bearing the standard of "civilization" is an ill-fit for the role of "Protector". Am I following you so far?
O.K. Now my point. Despite all the faults, failures, foibles and fuck-ups - is there another country in this world capable of doing what needs be done? We have the position, preeminence, and power - we are the only logical choice.
Sure, our history is littered with missteps, we are hardly the noble ideal. But no country is. It is the very nature of the word "human". The US has made errors, will make them - but, almost alone in the world, it actively learns from them and it gets better - we have a 200 hundred year history and a remarkable document called The Constitution to guide us. The US of 2001 is a better place than the US of even 50 years ago, the US of 2051 will stand similarly advanced.
Claiming that we may bear some responsiblity for this problem may be accurate in fact, but it makes the wrong point at the wrong time. In a burning house, arguing about who made the matches is not only irrelevent but it invites angry response.
Bush and the rest of our leaders are human - they will fall short of the highest ideal - but they are what we've got, and they are the ones who will make the decisions - you may not like it, you may not agree - but that is the fact.
One last note - the soldiers in the various armed forces that fight for this country are living a noble ideal - even if their leaders are so much less than perfect - to dismiss their sacrifice, even when casually used for the least of reasons, is to dismiss the very heart of what it means to be free.
You asked what a "civilized" person should do? That's easy. Support the most "civilized" position - it ain't perfect, but nothing is. Until you are leader of the world, that's all you can do. Humanity is perfectable - not perfect; spending time and energy bemoaning that fact is a waste.
Bud Webster - a belated thank you for the heads up on Mr. Glick - it turns out he has a Rochester, NY connection, and that connection also links to Francis Bellamy, the author of The Pledge of Allegiance, born in my hometown.
I'll be driving from Phoenix and then driving back after speech. Hope to see as many people as possible from this board there.
Mark, the only thing in your note that I'd take issue with is your statement that "I'll gladly use the ranks of our morally smudged attack-dogs to take the worms apart." It'd be nice if that were the case-- but the truth is that you're not the one in a position to "use" the attack dogs. You and I are more likely to be among those who _are_ used. (Maybe you-- I'm well past draft age.)
An open-eyed and hard-headed response, Justin. I desperately and selfishly hope the defense ranks are swollen rich with individuals like you.
Brian: Listen to Rich; he's right; that's what we can do. We can't mope around until our leaders(?)/defenders are perfect. Improving this world is an in-the-trenches fight that doesn't end till we croak. Our spies are going to murder in the line of work. Ugly. But in our day, it may also mean that 6500 people don't get slaughtered for showing up for work in the morning. It is a mark of some distinction that the West has been pursuing a "surgical" war model for some years because of a growing and just aversion to broad slaughter -- while our adversaries have been packing ammo bunkers with families precisely to increase it. The latter is not a new approach but an ancient one -- whole cities were routinely put to death upon conquest in Alexander's day and in World War 2 the twenty-million(!) troops killed was astoundingly exceeded by the number of civilian dead.
We must give credit for intentions, and we are up against those (based wherever) who wouldn't mind the world going up in flames pursuant to their megalomania, and whose hearts are made "glad" by "pieces of infidels flying like dust," to directly quote Bin Laden.
No sitting on the fence for me. A noble, mostly free, international and intellectually vibrant city has been struck at with simple hate. I'll gladly use the ranks of our morally smudged attack-dogs to take the worms apart. At least our attack dogs go back to the kennels, mostly, afterwards.
Mark Zug
To Heather: Actually, I've given the same kind of advice to younger people, only without the graphic Snowden-like details. I usually phrase it like, "If you go into the military, you are letting yourself be used as garbage by the rich fucks who own and run the country. Never throw your life away on saving the face of a ruler who doesn't _care_ about your life."
To Rich: Sure, i'm aware that the U.S. has done some good. But frankly, I see no reason to give our current leaders the credit for any of those good things. (Basically: the fact that Franklin Roosevelt led us in a fight against Fascism doesn't make thugs like Nixon or Clinton or the Bushes his heirs.)
But you're right about what we can do-- basically, stand for civilization even when our own country may be sliding into chaos.
The fact that there are ambiguities in the world isn't news to anyone. The idea that these terrorists hate us simply because they "hate freedom" and are "jealous" is ludicrous, and the worst impediment to understanding I could possibly think of. And yes, this country has done bad things. F'rinstance, I have come to believe that dropping the bomb on Japanese civilians in '45 was done not because it was absolutely necessary to end the war in the Pacific, but primarily to scare the shit out of Stalin and show him the kind of horror we were capable of unleashing on him if he got out of line. Every country has had its moments of pride and its moments of shame. That doesn't mean that we need to cower and scuff our toes and wring our hands when we are attacked and compelled to respond to that attack.
So, we don't trust our nation's leaders? What's new? Not a thing. We didn't trust them or their motives before and we shouldn't trust them now, not entirely at least, but these terrorist groups need to be torn limb from limb before they get their hands on a nuke or start releasing chemical/biological agents on us or our allies. We can't even be sure that they don't have those materials at their disposal right now. We need to go after these people, and if I feel compelled to join the fight, I'm not going to shiver and hide behind my inherent cynicism and say, "Nope, sorry, I'm just not 100% sure I'll always be doing the right thing over there. I'll just let other people do the fighting and the dying in my place thankyouverymuch." I'd look in the mirror and all I'd see is a bitter, cynical, defeated coward. Yes, war is inconvenient. Yes, war is horrible. But, to misquote Denzel, there are some profoundly evil people walking the streets right now, and they need to be taken out. Trust me, the evil people ain't us.
Lynn: Cool, I'll let y'all know if I ever go back to LA. Nope, no Australian yet, but we get to do more rapelling during our field-training exercise out at Ft. Huachuca. I'm going to ask Master Sgt. Klein to teach me Australian before then. I hope he's allowed.
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/95/23/01_2_m.html
J
Idea:
Webcast of MIT 3-High Verbal program on the level of a production like this one. Hmm...sponsors, sponsors...
http://www.foodandwine.com/FWLive/Webcasts.cfm
(check out the opening Flash pages of this site--it's a wowser. American Express, of course; lots o money there!)
Heather, noodling around, it seems
Oh GREAT!.... I found a nifty little element here.. if I use "" (greater than or less than) signs I lose copy!
Try this again: (just this once, as it breaks the flow..dammy!)
-------------------------------
Rich: Well put.
Brian: Also, well put. Did you absorb my comment about publishing a column at Contentville? Run, do not walk, boyo.
now..
---asshole mode on---
This is what you do, Brian. You turn to the kid beside you, oh, let's say.. you.. you, Justin, and you say:
Do you know what happens when you go to war, Justin? You die. You get shot in the stomach and your intestines squish out and hang down around your penis and you bleed to death...long, and slow, and painful.
And do you know why you died, Justin? You died because some high and mighty, highly charismatic, highly-verbal, highly "I want to be in the spotlight/power position/get all the chicks/pick one" dude (or dudette) decided that the economy's down/the stock market's slow/I need my Arnold Jolt Cola macho fix/let's GET those terrorist bastards/three cheers for the mother country said let's have a war--do you REMEMBER those?
----------------DO YOU REMEMBER?-------------
Do you remember all those stories your grandmother or mother told you about your father/grandfather/uncle/brother/distant cousin and the "Big One" -- course SHE'S telling you because all those men are long dead or depressed or worse, or in a V.A. hospital somewhere peeing down their leg.
Ah, but you'll make a nice memorial statue, won't you dear one?
-end asshole mode-
Heather
the buck stops here
Lorin: Thanks for the input. "Write the scene as the character would envision it." Good point. And there's plenty of room for author plugs, as you be a frequent flyer here. We wanna know who we be talkin' to, dig?
Rich: Well put.
Brian: Also, well put. Did you absorb my comment about publishing a column at Contentville? Run, do not walk, boyo.
now..
This is what you do, Brian. You turn to the kid beside you, oh, let's say.. you.. you, Justin, and you say:
Do you know what happens when you go to war, Justin? You die. You get shot in the stomach and your intestines squish out and hang down around your penis and you bleed to death...long, and slow, and painful.
And do you know why you died, Justin? You died because some high and mighty, highly charismatic, highly-verbal, highly "I want to be in the spotlight/power position/get all the chicks/pick one" dude (or dudette) decided that the economy's down/the stock market's slow/I need my Arnold Jolt Cola macho fix/let's GET those terrorist bastards/three cheers for the mother country said let's have a war--do you REMEMBER those?
>>>>>>>DO YOU REMEMBER?
Heather
the buck stops here
Brian,
I also agree with you concerning your doubts on "Civilization vs Evil/Chaos" (and, I would guess, it's personal this time). Osama bin Laden has made it clear that he is willing to destroy the so-called "American" ideal and every American man, woman, and child along with it because we have contaminated the holiest of holies: Saudi Arabia. At the same time, as you mentioned, the US government helped make this guy and many others. We are in a very real sense reaping what we sow.
However, your analogy is too much the extreme. Not every cop is a thug and not every politician is a crook. We have done good. I want the ones responsible for this tragedy to hang. I also want us to differentiate between those that did this and those that did not. Considering the administration that is currently in place, I'm pleasantly surprised that immediate retaliation was not called. I applaud this. I also applaud the effort we are making with other countries so we don't look like the Charles Bronson/Clint Eastwood of the world. Maybe we do have some folks that deserve to be in Hell, but we also have some folks that deserve to be in Heaven.
I think the Good vs Evil that seems to be the rhetoric is too simple, but I also think that it is a case of the Not So Good, But Trying vs. the Nuts Who Just Want to Kill. The lesser of two evils doesn't fit here because I don't see the US as being the lesser of any evil as it doesn't have the capacity to fit into this concept any good that the US does do in this country and abroad. I'm not apologizing for the ills that we do across the globe and I'm not tooting our horn for the good that we do across the globe, but this government and country consists of you and I and many others who give a shit and those that don't and those that are blissfully unaware of our place in the world.
What can we do? We can get involved. We can write our representative telling them how we feel. We can contribute time/money to the cause we are most interested in. We can attend city council meetings. We can write letters to the editor of the local newspaper. We can voice our informed opinion. That's what we can do.
Brian: There's little I could add to your post that wouldn't seem redundant. You have put your finger on the Defining Dilemma of Our Age, and I would be a liar if I said that I had a solution.
*SIGH*
How did we allow things to get so royally screwed-up?
Chagrined beyond the capacity to describe,
Jim
I've been feeling extremely frustrated over a lit of the commentary about the WTC attacks. I've been running things around in my head for a while, with no real resolution, until a few minutes ago. I was sending a note to Faisal Qureshi, who I know through the Kubrick newsgroup and transatlantic phone calls, and I figured I'd vent at him. And then I figured I ought to toss this out publically. Here's what I sent him:
On another front, namely, the WTC attack and what's looking like war with Afghanistan... I can't remember a time when I've been this conflicted over what's going on. I hope you don't mind my venting a bit, even if an opinion or two of mine might strike you as being, well, as naively American as any other bullshit the rest of the country has been swamped with. So bear with me on this.
I've been reading a pretty wide range of opinions on what's going on, and one theme keeps turning up. People have been extraordinarily quick to cast this as a conflict of Civilization versus... well, Chaos, evil, disorder, or whatever. In one sense, that's true... but _only_ if it's seen as a matter of relatively humanistic cultures facing attacks by fanatic, absolutist, religiously-oriented murderers.
Granted, the Taliban certainly fit the second half of that boxing match. It's obvious that neither they, Osama bin Laden,
or any of the other terror groups suspected of complicity with the attacks have any real interest in the liberation of the
oppressed. It's almost a trusim to say that they welcome the oppression of others by the West, because it drives more
people into support for their efforts. I think most reasonable people would say that they'd prefer to see such organizations either eliminated, or at least kept under a tether tight enough to keep'em from doing any damage.
But, as some of us recognize, and as you certainly know, the United States doesn't have a terrific claim on the title of Civilization. We know its role in the rest of the world has been pretty awful; support for dictators and oppressive governments, willing to support the Saudi regimes in exchange for oil access and military advantage, provsion of material and diplomatic support for Israel's vendettas on the West Bank and Gaza Strip... well, we both know large chunks of the sordid stories.
In spite of this awful track record, the United States, and much of the "West," can make a credible claim of moral superiority to regimes such as the Taliban's. We haven't reduced our own cultures to levels lower than that of, say, North Korea. Most of our citizens are prosperous, and we enjoy tremendous freedoms. Our history has its share of mass murder, oppression, and imperial conquest, but it's also had periods of advancement, growth, and even heroism. I would never say it's a perfect place to live, but it is one of the better places to live.
But this enables any number of apologists for the U.S. to argue, more or less, that this vindicates anything the U.S. might do against the Taliban, or whatever target they choose. The "logic" works like this: Sure, we _might_ have done some bad things to other countries. But if the terrorists win, they'd make the world a charnel house. Thus, the wrongs that the U.S. _may_ have committed in the past are not as important as the U.S.'s role in protecting civilization from certain ruin.
Some have even gone so far to argue-- again, more or less-- that to even _mention_ the U.S.'s shortcomings as the Defender of Civilization is a mark of bad taste, of disloyalty, of an empty and fanatical cynicism that can only weaken the U.S.'s resolve in this great conflict. (After all, the logic might go, if you're faced with a Hitler, are you going to tell people to not support Britain just because of Amritsar or the ruin of late 19th century India?)
So I've had the genuine displeasure of seeing ostensibly liberal-left commentators denounce figures like Noam Chomsky and Edward Said and Howard Zinn and Christopher Hitchens for having the temerity to say that the U.S.'s actions have probably encouraged the growth of terrorism in the world. It's been a revolting spectacle-- Clinton apologists like Joe Conason, trying to portray Noam Chomsky as a befuddled dupe, and the retarded children over at Mediawhoresonline.com calling Chomsky, Said and Hitchens "the Bin Laden left." One idiot at the Times took a long swipe at Said the other day; Said's one of the most cultured and humanistic people around... but this fuckhead tries to work up a snobbish giggle over the "paradox" that Said practices the ideals of the Enlightenment while denouncing the
West. And even Hitchens has criticized Chomsky and Zinn on this point-- not because he thinks it's disloyal, but because it doesn't seem to help what he regards as a _real_ conflict between civilization and ruin. In other words, these men have criticized the U.S. for the times it's fallen short of the ideals of civilization, and now they're being accused of attacking the very idea of civilization with their hand-wringing and second-guessing.
At least Hitchens had some reasons for critizing Chomsky that, well, I'm sympathetic with. (Chomsky will probably never lose my respect. But he can be frustrating, in that he's great at cataloguing the U.S.'s evils... but he doesn't say much about what people can do about it. God, I wish he'd do a book on activist tactics.) In a sense, I do see the WTC attack as part of a conflict between ideals I believe in-- humanism, the enlightenment, the dignity of humankind and hatred for its suffering-- and every evil, small-minded, tribal, hate-swollen impulse that gives rise to things like abortion-clinic bombings, the WTC disaster, racism, slavery, unrestrained capitalism and total state power, religions fanatical and otherwise, and... well, you know what I mean.
But what the hell _is_ a civilized person to _DO_ here? The people who claim to be defending civilization are people who have _no_ record for being civilized. I cannot bring myself to see George Bush, or Bill Clinton, as heroes who'll spend their political lives trying to improve the world to the best of their know-how.
The analogy I came up with goes like this. Imagine you live in a city where the cops are thugs and the politicians are crooks. The cops beat confessions from suspects, lean on blacks and Latinos, shake down gays, and aren't really enthusiastic about investigating rapes. The politicians shake down businessmen, boost taxes when they want new pools, and wag their tails for the highest bidders. It's not a police state like, say, 1979 Chile, but it ain't great, either.
But then, one day, a gang of Really Evil People, known for its violent tendencies and generosity with graft, lets loose with a gigantic massacre that wipes out a supermarket full of housewives and children. Suddenly the call goes out to eliminate these drug dealers from the town... and the people in charge of this effort are the same thugs populating the precincts and City Hall.
Why the _hell_ do I want to give these assholes the opportunity to pretend that they're the saviors of all that's fine and good in the world? Especially since it's obvious that they're not likely to _change_ their habits, which clearly encouraged the development of terror groups, and the policy changes that _should_ be followed will be resolutely ignored. And I do _not_ want to be forced into even tacit support, if only because I resent the "lesser of two evils" strategy that always seems to guarantee the worst in the final outcome.
So you can imagine how frustrated I am over this. There's real evil in the world, but the people who are going to be waging war against it have earned their own places in Hell. The only actions available to anyone of conscience seem to be directed at influencing our leaders-- urging different tactics, like adherence to international law, changes in foreign policy, and maybe even more than lip-service to "defending civilization." And these actions seem especially impotent, in that the right-wingers in charge are clearly not interested in what we have to day, and the liberals have decided to become hawks who won't tolerate dissension in the ranks.
Roll call:
Who's going to be at Claremont McKenna to see Harlan's lecture tomorrow? (Besides Harlan and Susan, of course.)
I want to know so I can make sure to say "Hi" and put a face to a name.
-Matt
Y'all~
The newsgroup rec.humor.funny.reruns is currently running one of my favorite short stories.
Meat (http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/96q1/meat.html)
By Terry Bisson
Published originally in OMNI magazine, Nominated for a Nebula.
Reprinted with Permission
Please don't try to read this story and drink hot coffee at the same time.
L.
Lorin~
Wow. What an amazing piece. The immediate thing it brings to mind is a phone conversation I had with my mother last week. She was born in 1940, her father an FBI agent and thus, like many gov't sponsored families, grew up in several places, one of them New York. She has told me many times of standing on the waterfront watching the warships leave to go to Europe. Must have been in the last years of WWII. The words that chilled me, made my heart catch in my eyeteeth:
"It's strange,Lynn. I don't remember them. The Twin Towers. I mean, I remember the Brooklyn Bridge and the Empire State Building, and I remember watching the ships."
"Mom, they were built in the seventies."
Long pause on her end.
"Yes, of course they were. I meant when we went in '92 to Westminster. We got the tour, saw Lady Liberty, the Stock Exchange. All that touristy stuff. But I don't remember seeing the World Trade Center."
Long pause on my end.
"They were probably so tall you didn't even notice being right under them. I mean, you never noticed 10 UCP before I worked there and it's thirty-five storeys."
"Oh that must be it."
I have her eyes, her chin, her nose, the same nose that she got from her grandmother, affectionately termed the Baker nose. So distinctive the cousins used to line up at Thanksgiving to have the profile picture taken. Before my uncle and my cousin passed. I have her quick wit, her twisted sense of humor, her love of things literary. Did I also get the mind that frays and wears thin, the same mind that I watched my grandmother lose in her own pale twilight? Only time will tell.
I'm sorry, what was I saying again?
L.
HEATHER: One thought, re: writing and sex. One of my guiding principles is that a sex scene should be like any other scene in a novel or story. That is to say that it should serve a purpose, further the plot, reveal something about the characters, especially the scene's viewpoint character. It's when a scene does none of those things that it tends to feel gratuitous.
In terms of how explicit to be, it's the same idea. A sex scene has to fit organically within the piece. So, it should use language that's in keeping with the tone/voice of the narration, and its graphic content should reflect the viewpoint character's perceptions, experiences, upbringing, and so on. It's all part, one hopes, of a big, cohesive, whole.
FYI: there's a great book about writing about sex called THE JOY OF WRITING SEX, by Elizabeth Benedict. Highly recommended.
Over and out,
Lorin
FRANK: Small correction here. The real story is that some executive a few rungs down the ladder at Clear Channel put together a list of songs that their stations MAY wish NOT to play. The list was compiled pretty haphazardly, and stations under Clear Channel have complete autonomy to ignore the list, which is exactly what the vast majority of them are doing.
I agree, of course, that the choices were pretty mind-boggling and inane, but the whole matter is really a tempest in a teapot.
HEATHER: Aren't you a sweetie for promoting my story? That piece was borne of about 10 minute's inspiration and about two hours of work, as a result of Writers Weekly's Twenty-Four-Hour Fiction Contest. It's kind of the cyber equivalent of HE's bookstore window writing stints (please note, I do NOT hold myself up as a writer of equal talent!). A topic and word count limit is sent out via email and one has, you guessed it, twenty-four hours to complete the story. That was great fun. Maybe all the writers in here should get in on it and we can donate any prizes to KICK?
As to self-promotion...well, my feeling is that there are forums that are appropriate for such things and forums that aren't. I don't mind at all if others plug their work here (in fact, I'm interested), but I feel reluctant to do so myself. Lots of reasons, I guess, foremost among them the fact that this isn't the Lorin Message Board! :)
Anyway, have lots more to say about other things that have been posted in my absence. I was in Las Vegas, of all places, during the attacks. The strip was closed down. Hotels/casinos were off-limits to non-guests. It became very ghostly, very surreal.
But then I'm sure it was that way all over.
More later --
Lorin
Dear John:
Thanks for the update re: MIT.
All best--Susan
Dear John:
Thanks for the update re: MIT.
All best--Susan
Web applications can be frustrating.
Just finished creating another 3-High Verbals postcard at the Amazon site. The 'preview' showed it as text, spaced and centred so I followed along.
Got the postcard. It's all one paragraph, and of course it looks stupid. You'd think the guys who create these apps would think about stuff like this. Sheesh. I SO love wasting my time on things like that.
Talk to y'all later. Hope you all are feeling better these days.
Heather
hey...
Tell me what you think of THIS web site and its stuff (they're in 50 states, apparently):
http://tailwags@tailwags.com/
Rob and Brian:
Actually, I seem to feel PI has a pretty open mind when it comes to guests they put on. Some of the names you have mentioned have been on. Barbara Ehrenreich was on recently. Lets not forget, Bill Mahar is especially fond of Barbara's latest book, "Nickle And Dimed".
I have no idea about the "changing of the guard," but I will do my best to get Ellison back on the show. Bill Mahar is always saying that he reads all of his mail. I don't know about age demographics, but I think Mahar has the power in who he gets on the show. Obviously, his producers want certain people on to bring up the sagging numbers. I still see quite uncommercial guests asked on. It may also be that Ellison has been on so much that they want to wait. Joe Queenan used to be on a lot, but when was the last time we saw him??
Actually Rob the reason Noam Chomsky is never on PI, is because his appearances usually entail at least a year in advance set up. Noam is a busy little bee. His thoughts about the bombing are quite pungent.
Rick: (or anyone who has used this)
Are you familiar with this at Amazon?
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/subst/fx/home.html/ref=zm_pb_h_09/058-7782436-2282367
Oh dear.. This sounds interesting...
Heather
Did you all know that radio stations are banning certain songs from being played. Imagine, by John Lennon is banned from Clear Channel stations. I heard this from Micheal Moore's websight. Mike has some good things to say about the terrorist bombing. you should check it out. So far more Muslims have died in the Trade Center than other creeds. How ironic eh? Black and brown skin people are the majority of dead. Better not let that get out, they may decide to call off the search.
I can see it now folks. Bush is gonna bring us to anothe Vietnam. Strap on your safety belts for dear life!
Missing for days, I stumble into the room, unshaven and stinking of camphor and licorice:
Justin: You're scaring me, son. It's possible to become addicted to vomiting's sedative effects (due to stimulation of the vagus nerve, I think), so beware. Avoid all-you-can-eat buffets at all costs.
Is anyone else disturbed by the FBI's open pleading for help from fluent Arabic and Farsi speakers? There's nothing like proclaiming your paucity of vital language skills to the world, though they probably have little choice. The sad fact is that intensive courses in Middle Eastern tongues are barely taught in American universities; the languages are extrememly difficult, and schools are leery of the political ramifications of their presence in the curriculum. I think the national number of students majoring in Arabic is 400 or so; in Russian, approximately 100,000. Only Yoruba may have fewer scholars on the academic level. Very worrisome, indeed.
I have real difficulty reading eBooks, or ANY electronic text, for that matter. The problem is a physiological one, I think. Text on paper is reflected to the eye, while text on a computer screen is RADIATED, which makes all the difference. How many people out there routinely PRINT web pages containing more than a thousand words? The present state of computer screens makes reading e-text wearying, to say the least, even with anti-glare screens. Let's face it: The printed book is a perfected piece of technology, with thousands of years of work behind it. As much as pundits trumpet the tools of the information age, the fact remains that they're barely out of their infancy, though growing daily. I'm sure that techheads will lick this problem in my lifetime, but I'm holding off on adding that eBook wing to my library for the time being.
Heather: The best use of graphic sex in modern fiction that I can think of is by Scott Spencer in his novel ENDLESS LOVE. (Yeah, I know it was a shitty movie and a cheesy song, but the BOOK was great, so shut up already if you haven't read it.)
And then there's Jerzy Kosinski. Jesus, don't even get me STARTED on him...
Harlan: Do you have any personal copies of the Feb. 2001 F&SF for sale? And will "From A to Z, in the Sarsaparilla Alphabet" be reprinted any time soon? (I've never read it, and would like to.)
And now it's becoming scoundrel time as our elected officials tear away their masks, revealing their true faces. Representative John Cooksey (LA 5th R) was recently quoted as saying, "If I see someone (who) comes in that’s got a diaper on his head and a fan belt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs to be pulled over." This idiot actually has a chair on the International Relations Committee. (As if I need ANOTHER reason to lie awake at night.)
As I watch and read the news, I'm hoping all this won't play out the way I fear it will. Bush has shown restraint thus far in the use of military action, but that won't last long. While I have no intrinsic objection to the use of limited ground troops, regular and Special Forces, in Afghanistan (though that country has proven to be a killing floor for invaders in the past), I fear that full-scale carpet bombing is already a given. The Afghan people have suffered enough, and if my disgust at the further killing of innocent civilians makes me a commie-pinko, well, so be it.
A completely irrelevant thought I had while bathing my two German Shepherds: Has anyone ever written a children's book with the title THE LITTLE TICK?
Crawling out the bedroom window,
Jim
For example:
http://www.writersweekly.com/index-2ndfall99.htm
I really like this one. Good premise. Good story.
Heather
Lorin:
For someone with as much writing background as you have, I sure don't understand why you wouldn't want the people on this site knowing about it.
Some o' u writers.... When it comes to pluggin' yer damn selves, I jus don no!
Heather
Heather,
Just write what you gotta write. Don't worry about whether there's too much cursing, too much sex, too much whatever.
If you're going to censor what you write before you even write it, you've got big problems.
Never let someone else (even Harlan) influence your style of writing. If you want to put a lot of "foul language" in, who cares? If you want to put a lot of sex in, who cares? It's your work!
Serve your story, don't serve your readers.
-Matt
...now THAT was a question I wanted to ask--I keep forgetting to.
I understand--per Harlan's comments--the use of cursing in one's writing.
Now..peebles..any of you..
How much sex is okay?
I mean, how GRAPHIC or suggestive can sex be in a written piece? (Or does it simply depend on the purpose it's being used -- ie. to show character development)
I'm not talking about trying to get people's rocks off (not specifically); I'm not interested in Harlequin Romance fluff(?); I'm not interested in sex scenes that are the equivalent of splatterpunk gore; I'm certainly not prudish (Somehow, I acquired a rather healthy view of sex--don't ask me how) but I DON'T want to write sex scenes in a piece of work that make people roll their eyes and say, "oh GIVE ME A BREAK."
Do you get what I mean?
Heather, groping for feedback
Hi Chuck: Thanks for the heads-up about the Harlan books, but that ain't my point. My point is, there are a number of people in this world who will never know about Harlan Ellison because his books _aren't_ in their local library or bookstore (which makes for a good case for selling ebooks of Harlan's at the library).
And as far as it goes, I plan to buy all my books DIRECT from Harlan. *grin* And I plan to pay him "HIS MARKET VALUE" as far as it goes; for any books I poichase.
Harlan Ellison Roks. Did you know that?
Speaking of which, does he HAVE any rocks in his backyard?
Heather, doing story research
I was right about MIT being involved in some kind of online courseware project. Thing is, it's in its infancy. But it's definitely something to keep an eye on. I was doing research when I worked for that company, on the state of online teaching. This MIT project sounds very promising--the kind of thing even an author might want to contribute to; oh, say, a course in writing or studies of science or speculative fiction..hmmmmm...?
http://web.mit.edu/ocw/
Heather
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news....EC artist Johnny Craig has died.
I forgot the quote for the banned books week:
Paper burns, but words will fly away.
Akiba Ben Joseph
Heather:
If it's Harlan books ya want, check out the Tattered Cover book Store on line at: www.tatteredcover.com. They'll practically swim the english channel to get the books you want. (I am not an employee of that fine establishment, just an enthusiastic patron.) They are an independent store, and have books that the Conhugeco/Conglomcorp book store chains won't carry. You can shop and buy on line.
By the way, Tattered Cover is having Banned Books Week Sept. 22-29 to make people aware of the books that the goose-stepping troglodites have succeeded, and are trying to ban.
The second floor has a nice place for authors to talk to people, a comfy, intimate venue right next to where Harlan's books are shelved. Maybe Unca Harlan might want to stop there some time?
Chuck
Ah.. yes, and to finish...Harlan's Kitty
Go heah:
http://www.postcardmaker.com/cgi-bin/postcard.pl?action=receive&card_name=IGTVDK
Harlan:
Bet you could win at this contest:
http://www.vanmag.com/win/win.html
Contest closes September 30.
David Loftus and Brian Siano:
Are you familiar with Contentville.com?
Would you do something on their site? Here's a blurb from the site:
4. Recommendations and critiques: Everything you read from our independent experts is just that -- independent. We do not tell them what to think or write, and our agreements with them provide that any compensation they get from Contentville is not in any way tied to whether we sell any particular products. Also, our agreements with them require that they not have any financial interest in recommending or criticizing anything they are writing about unless they clearly disclose it.
Jus askin' jus' diggin' (Daniel Pinkwater seems to have a column on this site.)
Heather
It wouldn't be right to say I find it weird but I don't understand what all the fuss is about with reading online.
I read books as a kidlet, read books through my life in a range of subjects, worked my way to the web, got innerested in writing and spents yards of time reading posts and stories from udder web folks, I don't need glasses -- yet; my eyes get fuzzy from time to time from reading endlessly online but that's just the point--I can READ endlessly online.
I understand the drool reaction for having book in hand; went through the "I must have bales and bales of books on the bookshelf" (reformed; sent books bye-bye to various libraries) and here I sit now going out of my fucking mind reading scads and scads of topics online that interest the HELL outta me--I know the library from every city I ever inhabited; I do books BIGtime.
But this Internet drug; and its attendant, "read WHAT you want, to the DEPTH that you want" will fill my soul and brain and eyeballs til I keel over.
The idea of limiting myself to what I can get at the library or bookstore -- hey! no Ellison titles on any of my local bookstore shelves; am I making my point here? -- drives me to drink.
I remember during my early computer book reading phase -- before places like Chapters had walls and walls of computer books for sale -- when I couldn't find dickshit at the library or the manuals were so outdated to be useless.
I guess I've simply EVOLVED to what the Internet offers me. And I can see myself being a L A R G E user of ebooks once I have the facilties to do so.
End of weird rant.
As you were.
Heather Hornbook
eBooks? Lord.
Okay, it's a great idea for textbooks and technical texts. But it's hardly an improvement over one of the most technically perfect devices on the planet. Also, as someone who decorates with books (don't laugh - take a look around at your bookshelves and admit that you are doing the same thing), I find the idea of moving to electronic versions laughable.
On the other hand, medical texts, updatable at will, would be a great idea for eBooks. They should make that much more available for doctors, giving them access to the latest ideas and techniques. Could save more lives.
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. The idea sucks for fiction, though. Call me a Bob Green on this one (he's a notorious writer here in Chicago, who has some sort of phobia for everything past 1960), but I love the feel of books.
Again, not understanding what you are involved with, do you use the services of this agency?
http://www.copyright.com/
Is this service a good idea?
Heather
Harlan: Here is a link to a list of ebook retailers. I followed a link from Fictionwise/Ereads to this. Would any of these companies be worthwhile places to pursue being interviewed on?
http://www.ereads.com/retailers.asp
I notice Ereads has an Internet Piracy link for you.
Heather
Justin:
My SO was reading your post over my shoulder and is now cackling gleefully in the other room, saying something about if you ever come to Los Angeles, teaching you how to rappel inverted while maintaining a sight picture... Oh and Justin, I think he's serious. Ever done Australian?
L.
Rick:
Do you have a link for Harlan Ellison's web site at Fictionwise? I'm not sure I saw one. Do you think that might be a good place to have one?
Heather
Ooh, I actually can contribute a thought. This is in response to Heather's last post:
EBooks will be huge in the future. There's no stopping it. Initially, I thought it was a ludicrous idea. I was incredibly resistant to it, but I did end up reading an e-book on my laptop a few months ago, and instantly changed my mind. I don't prefer it to holding a "real" book in my hands, but reading a book on my computer wasn't nearly so horrifying an experience as I was expecting. All that needs to happen is literate people need to get over their initial resistance to the concept. Eventually, EBooks will catch on like wildfire. Just think of all the obscure, out-of-print works that will eventually be made available again in EBook form. It's exciting!
J
You good people have had to stand by and watch as the quality and frequency of my posts have degenerated ever since I started college, and for that I make many humble apologies and nominate myself to the post of Ellison BB Negligent Jackass. I assure you I will uphold my duties in the steadfast manner to which you have all become accustomed.
A quick update: First of all, I've dropped this fraternity business like a hot rock. I gave it a shot and stuck a few toes outside of my comfort zone, and that's what I'm all about this semester. Still, it definitely wasn't me, and in the end I should have saved myself the hassle and listened to you guys in the first place. You'd think that I'd listen to advice from my main man Michael (who I didn't even welcome to the board when he finally de-lurked, because that's just the kind of asshole I am) and from Harlan Freakin' Ellison hisownseff, but nooo, that would mean I would have to stop slamming my forehead into my knees and drooling on myself for at least five minutes. Unthinkable.
So...y'all know me and know what a salivating war-crazed ROTC psychopath I am. I have to admit, ever since Tuesday I have thrown myself into this ARMY business more than ever. Wednesday I went rapelling off of the tallest building on campus along with some of my fellow cadets, and damn near ended up going through a window. Then this morning I worked so hard in physical training that I threw up repeatedly, at which point the Master Sergeant started yelling at me, and God help me I do love it so. I don't know if this is the same sort of massochism that led me to major in Creative Writing, or if we're dealing with a whole new set of crossed wires here.
On campus, a lot of students here at the U have been asking me whether or not there's a danger of a draft. These folks are really scared about it, though I don't think they need to be. It may also be worth mentioning that the U of A has one of the largest populations of Middle Eastern students in the country, and there was an article in the paper yesterday talking about how a number of them have withdrawn from school to return to their native countries. Thankfully there haven't been any instances of violence against these students that I'm aware of, although there was an incident last week in which a middle-eastern student stood up and started shouting during a moment of silence.
I'm not responding to any individual posts or offering any opinions here because there is a lot of highly intelligent, quality discussion going on here as usual, and I really don't have much to contribute.
JUSTIN: Bomb the sum'bitches.
THE REST OF THE BOARD: Which sum'bitches, and why on earth would you say such a thing?
JUSTIN: Alla them sum'bitches.
See? It wouldn't work. Alright...I'm not THAT bad, but I don't imagine I'm thinking about this stuff as clearly as the rest of you.
Take 'er easy, good people.
J
p.s. the young lady I was telling you about a week or so ago just wants to be friends after all, but that's okay because now I have another one in my sights, the poor pitiable creature.
This URL MAY not post:
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FWE/2_5/71359430/p1/article.jhtml?term=%2BUser+%2Bgroups+%2BLaws+%2Bregulations+%2Betc
For consideration: ebooks at the library.
Many people keep saying ebooks won't take off as an industry. Hmm..
due to cost.. the libraries may like them. It would make sense...
Thoughts?
Heather
they're as in they are - it's late, i'm going home now.
L.
As of Friday, 5:30 pm, Sept. 21, Claremont McKenna's website is down, so let me pass my research along and save some of you poor shmucks the trouble:
Marian Miner Cook Athenaeum,
Claremont McKenna College,
385 E. Eighth Street,
Claremont, CA 91711
(909) 621-8244 (according to their message, office hours 8-5 M-F)
Fax: (909) 621-8579
athenaeum@claremontmckenna.edu
http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/mmca
I did let them know that their website is down. As soon as I find out about parking, I'll let you know. (Probably Monday as their out for the weekend).
Have a good weekend folks.
L.
Harlan: How do you decide what places to sell your books from the web? I came across a bookselling, science fiction books page at ThinkGeek.com, for example. Would you sell your books at a place like this?
Heather
A friend sent this to me. I thought it was rather interesting:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3513/christ_islam.html
Heather
"Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance."
--Sam Brown
Okay.. I've got this postcard app to work, it seems.
Rick, please leave this one ON!
(The trick? Don't use "" marks in your text. The application doesn't read/process them properly and your text inside or after the quotes may not appear (even though it will preview for you, before you send it).
Here it is, for the 3-High Verbal invite. You can forward the postcard to another person. (Okay, one thing -- check the spacing! When you press the 'forward it' button, the text setup spreads OUT. Gawd, don't ask. Get rid of the extra spacing and off you go! The programmers who created this app, obviously didn't test it too much.)
~~~~~
The 3-High Verbals (childofellison@yahoo.ca) has sent you a postcard from www.postcardmaker.com
You may pick it up cutting and pasting the following link below in your browser address field:
http://www.postcardmaker.com/cgi-bin/postcard.pl?action=receive&card_name=WNSIJR
or
You can pick go to this this postbox URL:
http://www.postcardmaker.com/code.html
and enter your card claim ticket code, which is: WNSIJR
(P.S. Sometimes, this second method displays a "no image" message. Welcome to the Web, honeybuns! Just refresh your screen, and start again.)
I'll redo the Harlan Kitty one in a sec. It worked last night. But then.. THAT was last night. *grin*
Heather
Brian,
Re: Gore, Bush, Nader or Carls Jr.
Sure, it all comes out the same in the end and out of BOTH ends; it's just that one had brains and the other didn't. Daz m'only point. I would still vote fer the ones with more brains.
David,
I think of the NRA and the ACLU both as imminent dinosaurs - one being insane the other restless. Speaking of which, that bit you related in recent findings connecting whales and hoofed animals was fascinating; I wish I'd caught that. I'll look for it in Nature or Science. I read about the morphology once: primitive fish appeared first, amphibians later, then reptiles, then primitive mammals, then legged whales, then legless whales...then politics and war.
Rob, your dscription of the students with the USA-shaved head and the disgust for Al Gore puts me in mind of something I'd love to say, if the opportunity ever comes up in conversation. "This wouldn't have happened if Ralph Nader were President!"
Sure, I know it's nonsense, but it's no more nonsensical than saying that Gore would have been better pr worse than Bush in this crisis.
David~ I heard the same pieces you did. Which is why I think it has been weighing heavy on my mind. Someone pointed out to me that the SS was basically Homeland Defense. And on the flipside, I can't believe we've lasted this long without it.
L.
Per the whale news, I'm reminded of Steven Jay Gould's use of the proof that whales descended from land animals (the essay is in "Dinosaur") to drive the final stake through the heart of the anti-evolutionists (sorry, but I hate the term creationist - I believe in both the creation of the universe(s) by God and in the science of evolution). It's a great essay, and ties into the fossil evidence discovered in the Afghanistan/Pakistan area.
Weeeeee! I finall received my copy of "Night and the City" in the mail! Now I can see what all the fuss is about Gerald Kersh. It's a 1946 copy (fourth printing), so it has that lovely acidic smell from the paper.
Regards,
Joseph
Lynn and Joseph:
Politics (and war!) makes strange bedfellows. Last night NPR noted that, as happened last year, Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum and the NRA were lined up alongside the ACLU to fight the administration's attempt to legislate curbs on civil rights in the name of security. The only difference is that last year, Congressman Ashcroft was one of the leaders on Capitol Hill against such a move; this year, as Attorney General, he's singing a different tune.
Another story last night on "All Things Considered" concerned the way the executive branch, throughout history, has arrogated to itself broad new powers during wartime, some of which recede at war's end, some of which hang on, and some of which disappear for a time and then come creeping back. They cited income taxes and the draft, for instance, which were both invented by Honest Abe Lincoln during the Civil War, were killed after the war, and then returned later.
I'm curious to see how long this new "temporary" Cabinet post lasts in our lifetimes....
Joseph~ Dropped you an email and started a new thread on my boards (Under "Entropy", entitled "We're the government and we're here to help.")
Warmest regards,
L.
Hey, Gunther: Good call! Comes this morning's news that Ashcroft says they're probably going to change the "Operation Infinite Justice" name because Muslim clerics have complained that only God can dispense same. I'm surprised more Christian ministers didn't jump on that one.
I think the coolest news of the week is fossil evidence to support the molecular biologists' claim that whales are closely related to pigs and other hooved animals (such as sheep and deer), and are descended from a common ancestor who saw what a bad deal land-based living was and went back to Mother Sea about 50 million years ago. (See the latest issues of "Science" and "Nature," although I heard about it on NPR and saw wire stories.) Too bad they won't be able to investigate the matter further, for now: the evidence was dug up in Pakistan near the Afghani border!
Joseph,
Regarding Ashcroft's considerable presence:
I've heard tap clicks on my phone for years. It really isn't that bad.
Incidentally, last night, in a class I'm taking, a guy with "USA" shaved in his hair commented how elated he is now to have the heart and intellect of George W. headin' the charge; how Gore, if he'd been elected, would now be stiffly imploring the public to "rally and unify the country; that we must work together", as opposed to the genuine anger Bush is clearly feeling. Now, none of us are denying Gore's lack of connection; but this premium on the "feel" rather than the "content" by the public constantly frustrates me. That guy conveyed a narrow view because he attached a pre-election image to an active one; Gore fucked up in the way he was "packaging", but he isn't stupid. Obviously, he'd have been emotionally drawn into this. My myopic classmate had a point; but his follow-through disregarded so many ramifications.
Incidentally, to change the route here, did you notice how the airlines, i.e., corporate America, suddenly acknowledge a virtue in government subsidy ("socialism")? Ah, the merit of hypocrisy goes on. Beaut-ee-ful, ain't it? Back in days when I once wanted government assistance (and ultimately backed down from even using it) those were the guys who protested its availability. In summary: "assholes".
In truth, Federal subsidies in American industry always existed and were always pursued; so-called entrepreneurs were never really "pure capitalist", except when arguing against available help to the impoverished and unemployed. That's why I used to tell Yuppies to shove it up their butts.
Well, so much for my a.m. ramblings.
Harlan, buddy:
Re: your PI appearances. Actually, you made Mahar's jaw drop a couple of times. I counted them on my recordings. I didn't know panels were chosen that way; some how I thought Mahar always approved regulars. And I had the impression you two were pals. Anyway, it's disappointing to hear that; I always listened for your name in the "next week's guests" announcements. The "changing-of-the-guard" sounds like a couple of punks.
Susan,
I tried the URL you provided for the October appearance but had no luck.
This one does provide more information:
http://events.mit.edu/scripts/event.pl?32007
John Q.
Hey you!
The 3 High-Verbals (childofellison@yahoo.ca) has sent you a postcard from www.postcardmaker.com
You can pick it up from the postbox located at:
http://www.postcardmaker.com/code.html
Your card claim ticket code is: NQCDCW
Arrghh...cutting off message but you get the idea.
Hache
Hello there, fellow creative entity!
Heather (childofellison@yahoo.ca) has sent you a postcard from
www.postcardmaker.com.
You can pick it up from the postbox located at:
http://www.postcardmaker.com/code.html
Your card claim ticket code is: UWCAOU
Ooooh. THIS WORKS! Fast too! Online editing of web animations too!
Hache
Okay, so that URL didn't work. Lemme try this:
Heather (childofellison@yahoo.ca) has sent you a postcard from
www.postcardmaker.com
You may pick it up by clicking on the link below
http://www.postcardmaker.com/cgi-bin/postcard.pl?action=receive&card_name=CGRIPO
or
you can pick it up from the postbox located at:
http://www.postcardmaker.com/code.html
Your card claim ticket code is: CGRIPO
Okay. That one works..
Hache
I worked for geeks. They were into open source and Linux. They were also into making money. The two are not exclusive of the other.
Also, geek places like these are rife with forward thinking Ellisonians who don't like the "corporate man in da house." (ie. Billy boy and his "just get it ta hell out there, we can worry about all the bugs later" mentality. Bill and his bugs drove my guys to drink sometimes with his oftimes slapdash methods of development -- all in the name of the holy dollar.)
I know what you are getting at but if these guys were all into the "information must be free" headspace -- they wouldn't be getting paid, now, would they?
Hache
HOWECUM I CAN STILL POST?
Lynn,
With deepest respect,
Giving a badge to President Bush is one thing. For him to wave it around as a talisman of rallying whole-hearted support of the abrogation of civil rights is another. It was ghoulish and pathetic.
Attorny General Ashcroft, in the wake of the attacks on America, has proposed wide and sweeping changes, such as the ability to detain immigrants for 72 hours (up from 24) without charging, and the ability to detain them indefinitely in the case of "national emergency." What else, you ask? A wide extension of the ability of police and FBI to institute wiretaps.
Boy howdy, that's a lot, isn't it?
I fully support appropriate action against the pathetic fucks who killed thousands of humans. How moving the United States further down the path to a Republican rich-vs-poor police state is supposed to do it is beyond me.
Regards,
Joseph
Just testing something:
http://www.postcardmaker.com/cgi-bin/postcard.pl
Heather~ Actually mine is the "RTFM" shirt.
L.
Heather~
You missed the entire point of slashdot. They are proponents of Linux, an open source operating system. It is not a place for someone who likes to get paid for what they write (code or prose) to bid their cause. Copyright infringement issues aside, these people are the banner bearers for the 'Information must be FREEEEE!' movement.
Just thought you'd like to know,
xoxoxox
L.
Four points:
terra'
strenth
sussessful
and one for the gallery, Ooobekistan, wherever the hell that is.
Other than that, I think the President's speech left no point untouched. I was especially heartened by his separation between the people of Afghanistan and the Taliban regime.
Homeland Defense will be the coordination point of all law enforcement, something the Department of Defense has nothing to do with. And don't worry, Joseph. The ACLU is already all over it. I still think little oversights like only being able to tap the hardware instead of the person need to be corrected. In the day and age of free cellphones, a wiretap that is limited to only one phone is ludicrous. And did you see those nine folks in black, studiously not standing or even applauding? Don't worry, they like their job security just as surely as you do.
And Joseph, my friend? Be assured that the necessity for vigilance has not been laid down, but now is the time to believe in those whose job it is to run this country. The united front presented by Congress should be evidence enough. The mother of that officer gave his badge to the President, and if she thinks he's worthy, you have no place to comment. Even if you don't like Bush's ulterior motives, keep in mind the law enforcement and rescue workers who were watching and took his words to heart. History is just as organic as any creative endeavor, moving in front of and behind the camera. Moving in hearts and minds, in hands and in strong backs. As in any art form, the belief of the participant is the catalyst of true power.
Warmest regards to my friends in these deeply troubling times,
L.
Lynn:
Saw this shirt, thought of you.
http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/apparel/38e8.shtml
*laugh*
Heather
Harlan,
I'll put the announcement in the message board area, and put a pop-up item on the home-page as well. Wish I could make it to MIT myself!
Best,
Alex
Or guru.com?
That would cover quite of cross-section of creative 'types' as well. Lemma know, Lenny.
Hache
Harlan: Would you do an interview (or summat) on slashdot.org?
Tis one of the highlevel geek sites. I imagine you'd have a lot of listeners on that one. Lemma know. I'll ask em, if you are innerested.
(They have forums, already, on you and the copyright infringement issue. Tis why I ask.)
Hache
Bush's Speech, reactions written as I am watching:
Secretary of Homeland Defense? Whadda fuck? I'm sorry, I forgot all about that little money-sucker called the Department of Defense.
Christ, I see so many abrogations of civil rights coming from these pledges of "giving law enforcement the tools it needs to fight terrorism."
You ghoul! You fucking low-life ghoul! Holding up the shield of a NY police officer, as if you have the basest right to touch it! Using that for your money-grubbing political ends!
Pathetic.
Regards,
Joseph
Har land..
Have you ever heard of Moses Znaimer of CITY TV in Toronto? (he of MUCHMUSIC, among other things) Ever dealt with any bodies in Toronto lately? There are an AWFUL lot of media type / creative type burblings in that city. Or Vancouver, for that matter.
(Keep in mind, my history of you is still very limited, due to lack of reading resource.)
Moses has a CON, I believe; media and entertainment and idea-related--I'll look it up (forget the name) but who knows, it might be something you'd "fit"
Heather painting in large loops but what de hell. You just never know...you jus NEVAH know...
Hey.. doesn't MIT do online courses and stuff? Get them to do a transcript of the evening and have it as a lecture piece on MIT's site or whatever..
I'll find what what I'm talking about here. I just know I remembered reading about one of the major university's having courses online.. for free or summat.
Heather Go
Hey.. this goes through or it doesn't. Thought I'd missed the deadline.
Hey, Rick, you gonna post that piece somewhere? I HOPE SO! Tis a beaut! Hell, you should be entering it at different places. I was just reading how here in Winnipeg, we have these upcoming writer's contests--that made me think of your piece.
TIS A BEAUT! YOU GUYS! IT T'WAS A BEAUT! I'm standing on my high chair in the middle of the 400 guest dining room -- I was invited, I swear! -- yelling, RICK'S PIECE WAS A BEAUT!
(in a whisper) Have you read it?
Harlan, HE-man.. ah.. Rick said you HAVE my address. Check with Rick.
Also, I still plan to talk to WHOEVER and wherever for you.. as you JUST DON NO what I may find.. fer ya. K? (And no, I won't be signing any contracts, I'll just CHAT with these people--whoever they might be, dig? And I promise I won't sleep with anybody either, K?)
Heather Ho'
Alex:
BY ALL MEANS! GO DO IT! YES, PUH-LEEZ!!
The lecture liaison at MIT was a full time student. She graduated. She left everything hanging. Though this extraordinary gig has been on for six months, absolutely NO ADVERTISING or PR has been done. A very nice young woman--also a student--named Sarah Dagen has taken up the reins, but she's working full tilt boogie to tighten the slack produced by everything being left undone through Summer Vacation. And while it doesn't affect the kind of job Peter and Neil and I will do, when we present our li'l dog'n'pony show-----
which is being billed as:
YOU'VE HEARD THE 3 TENORS!!
YOU'VE HEARD THE 3 SOPRANOS!!
NOW MEET THE 3 HIGH-VERBALS!!
----it would be a shame for a once-in-a-generation confluence like this to go un- or sparsely-attended.
So, bleat it from the rooftops, oh Krislov!
Yr. pal, Domingo Ellison
Just wanted to take an opportunity to mention here a bit of personal good fortune.
See, one of my primary book collecting areas is older (pre-1970) sf/fantasy/horror anthologies, hardcover and paperback. The reasons are varied, but have to do with the fact that a) there's a lot of gold buried therein, and b) there isn't a lot of competition so the prices are low.
To that end, then, I've accumulated hundreds of them, including what I think is probably the largest and most complete Groff Conklin collection in private hands East of the Big Muddy (and which forms the basis for the index I'm getting ready to publish called _40 Above the Rest: A Checklist and Index of the Anthologies of Groff Conklin_, but more about that later, perhaps).
As this is hardly a closely-held secret, I was approached by a small amateur magazine called bare*bones last Spring to do a column on older anthologies, and I agreed. The column was called ANTHOPOLOGY 101, and the first installment was "The Pohl Star", an in-depth history of Fred Pohl's seminal original anthology series, STAR SCIENCE FICTION. The editors loved it, ran it, asked me for more of the same, and then promptly folded before the next issue was due out.
So there I was, plenty of material on hand, plenty of enthusiasm for the job, and nowhere to send it. Selling non-fiction can be a lot tougher than selling fiction, since non- is frequently geared towards a specific market and not usable elsewhere.
A couple of friends, one a writer, the other an editor, suggested I query the New York Review of Science Fiction, a well-respected monthly that's been around since 1988, edited by David Hartwell and staffed by any number of well-know fans and pros.
They liked the idea, asked me for a few minimal changes, and if all goes well, it will appear in the October issue. AND they want more, although they don't really have regular columnists. So I sent them a list of potential column subjects, and they'll let me know which ones they're interested in.
This is a good thing. I really like writing non-fiction, it's a lot easier for me than fiction is. And this is a subject I can really be enthusiastic about. Plus - and this is a big plus - it's a PAYING GIG. Not much, but enough to make it worthwhile.
And, on another pleasant subject, this is the weekend that the Two-Fisted Writers and Artists (TFWA for short) gather in Roanoke to feed, and pay tribute to, pulp writer Nelson Bond and his wife, Betty. I get to read the incredibly sweet and warm tribute to Nelson that Harlan wrote, and I'm looking very much forward to it.
Thanks again, Harlan, and I'll let you know how it goes.
http://abc.go.com/entertainment/news/2001/9/maherapology092001.html
Bill Maher apologizes for his remarks.
L.
In spite of recent events, we are trying to keep to a November 13 release date for the CD reissue of "On The Road With Ellison Volume One". With that in mind, I'd like to remind all those interested that entries should be in by October 12. With advance notice by email, a few days grace can be granted as we review all the submissions. Thank you for your interest.
-Deep Shag Records
Susan,
Any problem if I post your MIT notice on CompuServe? We have a lot of Ellison fans, as you know.
--Alex
Another important notice:
"Listen to An Evening Of Lively Arguement" With Peter David, Harlan Ellison and Neil Gaiman at MIT on 6 October 2001 @ 7:00pm (doors open 6:30pm) in Kresge Auditorium. Tickets are: $12.00, $14.00 and $16.00. For advance/assigned ticket sales: e-mail: sunbear@mit.edu. Tickets will be sold at the door if the event is not sold out. For additional information call: MIT Lecture Series Hotline at (617) 253-0465 or e-mail: lsc@mit.edu. Website: http://web.mit.edu/lsu/www/fiction.
It should be a great evening. This mailing is being sent to those HERC members in the Boston (and East Coast area).
All best--Susan
Sheesh.
So the Chicago Tribune today is carrying a story about how Todd McFarlane doesn't want Barry Bonds to break the single-season home run record, because his Mark McGwire home run #70 ball would drop in value.
My heart bleeds purple piss for him.
Lynn,
Thanks for the info on "Fringe." Sounds interesting - I'll have to keep an eye out for it.
Regards,
Joseph
Frank Church:
As best I can figure it, just a guess, the reason I haven't been on "Politically Incorrect" since the segment whereon I shared the panel with Penn Jillette, Cindy Marcus and Henry Rollins, the show in which I made Maher's jaw drop when I told him, the studio audience, and eighty billion viewers that my dick had fallen off . . . the reason I'm not a semi-regular, as I was for five, six years when the show was first on Comedy Central and then ABC-TV, is that the producer and all the bookers who knew me left the show, they brought in a new Palace Guard who had been advised to "skew younger and more to entertainment figures" (according to someone who still works there), and I sorta fell out of the corner of their Gen-X collective eye.
On the other hand, perhaps Maher just didn't like me. Who knows?
Mr. Church: if you've had such good luck piqueing their bookers to solicit guests, you have my permission to remind them how well and how often I did for them. Hell, it's a buck; and these days, with AOL's attorneys draining my exchequer at the same rate as the TVA empties water out of the river, well, I can use any money-making gig available, though PI only pays SAG minimum.
Heather, where is that address so I can send the cheese sandwich crackers? As for doing a regular column, well, swetie, I can barely get out the work I'm already contracted to produce. Maybe some later time. But right now, I'm up to my gunwales in piranha and pecksniffs.
Yr. pal, Harlan
***** IMPORTANT NOTICE *******
(thus, all the asterisks!)
Webderland will be down from 6PM tonight until 4AM tomorrow, Harlan's Mean Time (HMT, 9PM to 7AM for those of you on the east coast). This is so volpegroupe.com can alleviate ongoing problems with the Nimda virus and install appropriate counter measures.
At risk of renewing the religion discussion again, I must sorta, kinda echo Lynn's comments ("...religion serves a very real evolutionary purpose...").
I don't know that religion has anything to do with the evolution of humankind, but I think it does serve a purpose in giving people a reason or hope that there is something and not nothing at the end of life. I think most humankind must have religion in order for them to live. (and I apologize if this sentiment has been stated or implied in previous posts; i was stuck in Toronto when the tragedy occurred and i'm still trying to catch up)
I know someone quoted Woody Allen before and I'll do the same from his CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS (should be a top ten on anyone's list). I don't have the exact quotes and can't quite remember the actors speaking the words, but basically there was a discussion between the revered grandfather and the liberal aunt about God and the grandfather (or, father or whatever) was incredulous that the aunt could not believe in God. Then the uncle (or, brother or whatever) says, "But, Sol. What if she's right? What if you die and there's nothing there?" And Sol replies: "And I'll still be better off then her."
I like that (near) quote as it says a lot. Not so much about religion, but about our capacity to make ourselves believe in anything. Which sometimes, unfortunately, also results in fanaticism.
Heather, dear, just to promote clarity, the entire quote was "He's no saint (can an atheist even BE a saint?), neither am I."
Jeez, Rick. ::shaking my head::
Joseph~
"Folk of the Fringe" is Orson Scott Card's response to a challenge that LDS & SciFi don't mix, can't mix, never will mix. So he wrote a series of short stories that kinda flow together into a story. It's post-apocalyptic and plays on the fact that the LDS, for all their faults, have their shit together when it comes to organizing and taking care of their own.
The cover blurb: "Only a few nuclear weapons fell in America - the weapons that destroyed our nation were biological and ultimately, cultural. But in the chaos, the famine, the plague, there existed a few pockets of order. One of them was the state of Deseret, formed from the vestiges of Utah, Colorado, and Idaho. The climate has changed. The Great Salt Lake has filled up to prehistoric levels. But there, on the fringes, brave, hardworking pioneers are making the desert bloom again. A civilization cannot be reclaimed by powerful organizations, or even by great men alone. It must be renewed by individual men and women, one by one, working together to make a community, a nation, a new America."
It was an uplifting read, and shows that for the most part, religion serves a very real evolutionary purpose in hard times.
L.
Ok, I just need to say this.
"Operation Infinite Justice" is the lamest name ever. Who came up with it, George Lucas?
Thank you. I'll go hide in a corner now.
Thanks for the reply on PI, Rob. I went and read the transcript of the show you mentioned. The guy who talked about the Arabs was someone named Don Bustany, whom I'd never heard of. (I wonder if Edward Said has ever been on the show.) I'm not certain he made the best case possible, especially faced with such an obnoxious jerk as Horowitz, but it was good that they asked him onto the show.
Actually, as far as topical humor goes, I've been getting into the work of Christopher Morris. Chances are, no one here's heard of the guy; he's worked exclusively through British radio and television, and none of his works are available in the States outside of, well, pirated materials in the Net. (Sorry, Harlan, but extreme times call for extreme measures.) But Morris has gained a reputation for utterly vicious, inflammatory satire that rivals Jonathan Swift.
I first heard of him through a set of interviews he did with Peter Cook, titled "Why Bother?" and I was amazed that the interviewer, Morris, had no trouble coming up with ideas that challenged even the ever-fertile Cook. For example, Cook, playing an elderly MP, mentions a trip he made to the Middle East. So Morris replies, "That's when you discovered the fossilized remains of the infant Jesus." I'm astounded Cook wasn't giggling as hard as I was when he heard that.
Morris did show called "The Day Today," which was clearly the inspiration for Comedy Central's "The Daily Show." But this year, Morris got some _serious_ notoriety over his recent "Brass Eye" TV series. It's a parody of newsmagazine shows. Anyway, there's been this violent hysteria in Britain over pedophilia-- to the point of villagers stalking the streets with clubs, looking for pedophiles, and pediatricians being attacked by people who didn't read past the first three letters of their office's signs. (I'm NOT kidding.)
Well, Morris and crew did a special attacking the hysteria. I was lucky enough to snag a Real Video version, because it was one of the most brilliantly nasty pieces of satire I've ever seen. The show begins with reporters joyfully announcing hhow Britain's children have all been crammed into Wembley Stadium, to protect them from the pedophiles lurking throughought the land. Morris plays a reporter at a prison, where a crowd waits to tear a suspect to pieces: "We threw this crowd a dummy full of guts! It lasted eight seconds!"
They even got members of Parlaiment to say, _in all seriousness_, that pedophiles "use an area of the Internet the size of Ireland" to "make children's keyboards secrete a dizzying gas to make them more susceptible." At one point, they describe how a mob attacked a pedophile and bashed his brains in, putting him into a coma. "But what's to stop pedophiles from developing _these_?" Morris intones, and we cut to a playground being menaced by a walking, clanking Transformer-like Cyborg.
Forrester and moi in an out of context convo about Harlan wondered:
"He's no saint (can an atheist even BE a saint?)"
Idea: A postcard application with Ellison excerpts or interesting postcard pics (or bookcovers!) AND the ability to send the friend or loved one some Jelly Belly jellybeans (proceeds go to KICK). (I'm thinking maybe GO with Jelly Belly as, they are ONLINE already. Also, considering NOT just sticking to JUST one item--more than just jellybeans, I mean.)
Harlan: What threshold would I need to reach to make it interesting to you to do a "subscription" column on this web site? (proceeds to KICK)
Harlan: Can I get 'paper' permissions (or do I need them?) for me doing "Mind Fields" (or whatever you think most effective of your works) in places like a bookstore, coffeeshop.. WHEREVER.
Harlan: Would I be of use to you as a "net broker/agent(?)/representative" of any sort as I canvass for KICK-interested parties on the web? Would you do stories/or interviews (or whatever) on other web sites -- with proceeds, again, to KICK. (ie gothic.net)
Smile pretty people. I'm sending new lurkers your way. Play nice. They are generally fans of Ellison NOT crappots.
Heather
child of Ellison, almost older...
I hope you weren't wearing a hat.
Rick,
"...run out my mind like warm, wet poop."
Jesus, warn a man, would you? I just spit on my monitor from laughing too hard, too suddenly....
Thanks for the...erm...info!
Joseph
For those that might be wondering, Harlan's gig of the 24th is STILL ON.
And Joseph - sorry no one's answered about FOLK OF THE FRINGE. I've read it. I've read most of Scott Card up to the point he started ditzing around with the Homecoming and Alvin the Maker series. ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD, despite their faults, deserve to be read and are both well-crafted books.
But, FOLK OF THE FRINGE. I know I read it. I remember holding it in my hands. I saw it on the bookshelf when I was culling my library for one of the insane number of moves I've made in the last six years.
But I'm afraid whatever was in it has run out of my mind like a warm, wet poop.
Sorry.
So, what does everyone think of the new Tori Amos album? So far, I highly recommend it (even though I can't find it in myself to get worked up over a version of Slayer's "Raining Blood"). Basically, it's 12 songs about being male and performing them from the perspective of a female character within the song. Yes, it's a concept album, but it strangely works (especially in the chilling and strange body-in-the-trunk-comforting-her-daughter version of Enimen's "'97 Bonnie & Clyde").
Regards,
Joseph
P.S. Hey, y'all talk about jazz all the time. TIme for me to toss in something different.
Brian
My angle on PI is like this:
Appearances that HAVE kept me as a regular viewer include some guy named Ellison (I recorded two of those), Nader, Jerry Brown, Gore Vidal, John Frankenheimer, Ed Asner, Rod Steiger (who’s always great), Adam West, Werner Klemperer, Dennis Weaver, Eric Braeden, Alec B. and his brother, and so on.
Many people less known have had perceptive comments (last night that guy who ran through the last 125 years of history in Palestine is a good example); the conservatives who come on and nauseate the shit out of me, buttressing my doubts about the brain pans in this country, are a presence I can understand because if everyone concurs and thinks on the same wavelength Maher won’t have much to offer viewers. As long as there are, perhaps, two bright people equipped to tear apart “tonight’s idiot” I can handle their presence. But there ARE, absolutely, occasions when I have to shut it off.
As for Maher’s “smarminess”; well, when I agree with him and he’s tearing apart “tonight’s idiot” I think it’s great. When I don’t agree with him (particularly instances when he contradicts himself) it pisses me off. I know that's cheap but, in this case, it’s that simple. I guess more often than not I’ve had fun with the show, following the frays when they’re volatile, and respecting occasional moments of insight on the issues. Often enough, I experience quite a few emotions as I'm listening.
I gave up on "Politically Incorrect" years ago. It wasn't just Bill Maher's smarminess and don't-touch-me-I'm-the-king-here demeanor, or the fact that so many celebrities were offering some of the most inane opinions one could imagine. (It was a nice surprise when an actor turned out to be more intelligent than I'd have guessed-- Alec Baldwin, for example, earned my respect after appearing there a few times.)
It was their quota system-- every damn program had to have some right-wing idiot on the show. They could have three guests who were somewhat liberal, or maybe just actors or actresses regarded as "nice people," but _every goddamn show_ they had "Conservative activist" or "Conservative columnist" or "Fellow of the American Enterprise Institute." Every goddamn show.
Now, I don't have a problem with conservatives having access to the airwaves. I can name a lot of right-wing TV shows, and a number where they pair off right-wingers with liberal insiders. But I can't think of a single show that might be considered as exclusively liberal as, say, "The McLaughlin Group" is exclusively right-wing.
Let alone having a show made of of people from the Left, which is where I've pitched my ideological tent. Sure, Christopher Hitchens got bookings, but that was because of the novelty over a leftist who attacked Clinton. Beyond that... how often do you see, say, Barbara Ehrenreich, or Katha Pollitt, or Alexander Cockburn, or Robert Fisk, or Noam Chomsky, or even Ralph Nader?
Joseph,
I mean, "it's important to know who OUR friends really are."
not, "it's important to know who are friends really are."
Jeezus.
Alex,
...actually, I like Cher.
Given the show has to generate a schedule of guests five nights a week I think it works, but, yeah, it IS 'rather' egalitarian. I still prefer it over anything else on the tube at that hour. It has its moments.
Alex: But isn't it fun watching Harlan yelling at someone? Smile.
You knew David Horrorwitz had to get in his jabs; being that he is such an asshole. I still don't buy the biz about Horrorwitz being an ex-Leftist. He probobly was so far left that he went right again.
Hell, I wish I could see Ellison speak, but he avoids Ohio like the plague (smile).
Actually Bill Mahar does respond to his mail about guest ideas. I suggested he put on Jello Biafra, and he did. I suggested fundamentalist kook, Bob Larson, and Larson has been on many times. Cause who in the hell wants to see some soap opera actress talking about world affairs, when she probobly would rather talk about hair styles.
Bill, yes, I recall the foolish defense of Kazan on one "Politically Incorrect." I also remember Harlan writing at some length about it in one of the "Edgeworks" omnibus volumes. For me, that was an example of why the PI format doesn't work for Harlan, or, indeed, for intellgence. It is the most egalitarian of programs, and I mean that in the worst sense of the word. People are chosen not for their expertise, wisdom or wit, but, simply put, for their fame. It's a show where Cher has as good a chance to speak on matters of national defense as Colin Powell.
Call me an elitist, but I do not give a rat's ass what Garth Brooks thinks of the civil rights movement (to build an example out of nothing, as guests so often do on PI).
Still, I thought Harlan appeared on PI after the execrable Kazan discussion. Maybe my memory serves me poorly.
--Alex
Rob,
The line that impressed me most from Letterman, who was as heartfelt as anything I have ever seen on television was:
"The reason we were attacked, the reason these people are dead, these people are missing and dead . . . they weren't doing anything wrong, they were just living their lives, they were going to work, they were traveling, they were doing what they normally do. And as I understand it, and my understanding is vague at best, another, smaller group of people stole some airplanes and crashed them into buildings. And, and we're told that they were zealots, that they were fueled by religious fervor, religious fervor. And if you live to be a THOUSAND years old, will that make any sense to you--will that make any goddamned sense?"
Now that's as good of an encapsulation of the situation as any I've seen.
For what it's worth, that passage appeared twice in today's Sun-Times. One had the "goddamned" - one had dashes instead. Interesting.
As for my cat, she does like having her belly rubbed, until she's had enough and rolls over, or bats with a sheathed-clawed paw. It still seems odd, though.
Regards,
Joseph
A gripe and an applause:
David Horowitz is an irritant: last night on Bill Maher’s show he seized the spotlight and made his high point for the evening an impassioned accolade to George W., to the apparent effect that had Clinton still been president we wouldn’t have had the "dignity and leadership" to guide our military resolve and national spirit at this time of crisis.
On the other end, though I missed Dave Letterman’s interview the other night, I caught a splice of it that impressed me. Just one line – one segment of a line alone I found very moving – as he conveyed his sadness he added, frankly, “I don’t trust my judgment in things like this.” That kind of (rare) self-effacing sentiment provides us with the ability to look for the right answers rather than jumping recklessly into a skirmish. I never heard a celebrity – or, perhaps, ANYONE – question his own judgment in a provoking crisis like this; most people are certain they have the answers right off (including myself, often) – with no need to check facts, or understand the “enemy” better for a just outcome. In all his cynicism – which is why I used to like him – he can be an interesting bloke. I wish I’d heard the rest of the interview; might not have been as promising or incisive but certainly interesting.
Joseph
Re: yer feline buddy. My sageful advice is try stroking his belly. If he smiles ya got his trust; if he shreds your hand up you only amount to a convenience for him. Hey, it's important to know who are friends really are.
Tom DeCenso - I envy you the opportunity of attending a speaking engagement by HimsElf (especially as the 24th is my birthday - it's true, I'm getting older and my beloved spouse/soul mate looks just as she did the day I met her). Check out some of the entries under Contributions and the Picture Gallery as well. You will find the experience well worth the logistics to get there ... and we want a full report when you get back.
Alex - I think Harlan gave up on "P.I." for interactions that included the person who spent a good deal of her time defending Elia Kazan and his HUAC testimony, as well as the time Maher chose to mock Harlan for use of the word "catafalque" while talking about the funeral procession for JFK (help me out here, Weberlanders, is this correct or am I disremembering?). The format I'd like to see him in would be the Tom Snyder (or, while it lasted, Bob Costas) late night, host-n-guest one-on-one for a half-hour.
...I try not to joke about the rabid desert penguins.
They ate my cat.
I still cry whenever I put on a tuxedo.
I'm not a big fan of "Politically Incorrect." Frankly, I rarely watch it unless Harlan is on, and he hasn't been on it in ages. But I couldn't miss the foofaraw when, for once, the show really _was_ politically incorrect. Apparently, due to the host's statement that someone who rides a plane right into a building is hardly a "coward," the show's lost advertising from both FedEx and Sears. Anybody see this particular show? If so, were you offended?
I'm not a fan of the guy, personally, but it seems to me that a show called "Politically Incorrect" SHOULD be offensive once in a while.
(And if you've time to answer, Harlan, why ain'tcha on it anymore? Too damn smart for the format, I suspect.)
--Alex
Hey, woah, another Finn? T'aint exactly a common last name. Where in Ireland is your family from, Michael?
TO MY FELLOW CHICAGOANS!
Sorry about the caps. I need your attention. An item from Monday's Inc. column in the Trib that you should read and attent if at all possible. I'll be the brave soul in a Sox jersey:
"Wrigleyville police officers from the Belmont and Town Hall Districts, along with the Wrigleyville Community Firefighters, have planned a benefit Saturday to raise money for the families of firefighters and police officers killed during rescue efforts in New York. The $10 donation for the event, which begins at 7 p.m. in the Cubby Bear, 1059 W. Addison St., goes to the New York Police and Fire Widows and Children's Benefit Fund. Live music, a buffet and an auction are planned."
Regards,
Joseph
Regarding Cats Sleeping on Backs:
It's a kitten thing. If he's doing that, it means he feels safe, whether because he's very comfortable where he lives or because he's so arrogant he thinks he's impervious.
In my ongoing quest to find the two Glass Teat books (Uncle Harlan, when are those going to see reprints again? They're invalueable to American History or Anthropology classes ;) ), I stumble upon this, from Jason Smith:
"The better way to get this feeling is by listening to Ellison read his own work. There is no better way to get into an Ellison story than to listen to the guy read it. He's a cranky, angry, loud man with a lot of opinions and I think he is heard mostly because he makes an articulate point when he opens his mouth. His commentary comes from his heart and it shows in his delivery. When he reads his stories, he has the same kind of passion and range, but add to it his spectacular storytelling ability. This is a guy you want around your campfire one night if just to tell one ghost story to the kiddies.
"Excuse me, Mr. Ellison...would you mind telling the one about the Function of Dream Sleep? The scouts'll love it."
Fair bet some of the scouts will leave camp with bed wetting problems for years to come.
Among the stories is the classic short story "Jefty is Five" which, in print eluded me for years. I just didn't dig the story. Once I heard Ellison read it, however, I had a Joycian epiphany and now hold it as one of the best stories ever written...scifi or otherwise."
The full review and such is at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574534122/qid=1000924032/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_3_9/104-6589167-8795918
Thanks for replying Michael. I am going to get a hotel reservation very soon and I'm going to go see the flight of the curmudgeon. I would regret not going too much too miss this oppurtunity. Nuff said =)
Get in the car. Now.
I was finally able to see him speak at Aggie Con in Texas a year and a half ago. If the only reason you're debating is the drive (and not personal, dire reasons like wondering if your job will still be there when you get back, or if your car will survive the trip, or if those stories about rabid desert penguin attacks are true), don't sweat it. He is a masterful storyteller in the flesh as well as on the page, spinning tales of stuff that's happened to him...ask him about the phone call he got in the middle of a snow storm from a poor guy who wanted a ride to the airport, or what exactly DID happen at the resturaunt at the Aggie Con years and years ago...which such energy and zeal that the after effects will keep you pumped for days.
And no, I'm not in PR in Real Life (tm), why do you ask?
Hi I am considering attending Harlans speaking engagement on the 24th. Has anyone here seen Harlan speak before? I am a huge fan just recently got enlightened about 6 months ago and ive read about 100 diff books by Harlan since. Is it worth it for a big fan like me to drive from phx to see harlan there in california? I bet it will be. =) I want to be a comic writer and I could use some inspiration from a master. What can be expected at his engagement? thx
Lynn,
That's why I shouldn't post at 1 in the morning. For some reason, the Lilliputians didn't spring to mind at all....
What's Folk of the Fringe about?
Regards,
Joseph
Joseph~
Big Enders. Little Enders. Gulliver's Travels.
Have you read "Folk of the Fringe", also by O.S.C.?
L.
Frank: I second da motion on the new Dylan cd-absolutely wonderful and his best in yonks. I'll also add the new Weezer, a bit edgier, but also tuneful. For a lark I picked up a 1994 cd by a Scottish band called the Wild Colonials. The female singer's voice very distinctive and wonderful. The song "don't Explain" is worth the price of admission alone.
Mark, your description of the universe was pretty darn poetic. Thought-provoking, too. Rob, in an earlier post, does have a point. I guess I do have an emotional need to see patterns in things, including the universe. On the surface, there is no absolutely empirical evidence for the divine. Maybe all such yearnings are forever destined to be an internal experience...but dammit, I want an afterlife! Life is too rich, even when tragedy hits, for me to accept that it all just...ends. Wow; we sure did get heavy thes last few days, didn't we?
Golly, Brian, you've got balls. To get anywhere near that subject with humor -- but you did it; made me smile. Fucking congrats and Thanks.
Because it's all been said by this luminous bunch, on the disgusting acts of the 11th, and because lurking here is still an ongoing pleasure, I will add only to the recent God thread. Here is my working theory:
The Universe is the totality of all that exists, of all that has existed or will exist. By definition. It includes insentient matter, rocks, hot dogs, galaxies, and sapient beings, be they Gods, Soupy Sales or alien intelligences millennia old. Even if there are multiple "universes," all of them added together is still THE Universe. It INCLUDES everything.
When I hear intelligent people speak of "intelligent design" of the universe, I wonder if we are speaking the same language. The universe I see doesn't owe its laws, patterns, or apparent patterns to any attribute of wet gray matter such as "design" -- quite the other way around. Our brains arose in this universe because they patterned themselves to survive in it. I have heard this view of a non-designed universe characterized as (approximately) "random molecular action without meaning." It all depends on where you seek your meaning.
My universe (which includes us) doesn't care what we believe, it simply acts as it is. It is wholly incumbent on us to understand it -- and failing that, as we often do, it is we who reap its remorseless consequences. Or succeeding, its truly luminous and grand moments. And these things occur -- get ready for this -- in this life. I mean the one between birth and death. That realm is where I find my meaning.
I know I've been speaking declaratively here, and it still remains possible I couldn't be more wrong. But I think if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, it's a duck; and every religion so far looks, sounds, and walks like an inspirational myth. They have had their value, but I find it harder and harder to reconcile any of the ancient shepherd faiths -- or the psychic or neo-pagan ones for that matter -- to our modern need for guidance. On the other hand, the long and labored emergence of science as a mental modus operandi remains a great untapped value whose work has barely begun. The humanities still reek from the simple lack of (or refusal of) observation and reason, though the theories of John Locke remain a good start. We desperately need more.
So thanks for the venting-space, and for at least the apparency that these issues matter to y'all. I'm glad to be back; at least as glad as one can be these days.
Mark Zug
The comment about "Eidolons" reminds me of a little Ellisonian gesture I made a few years back. The local Books behind Bars people were sponsoring a lecture by Howard Zinn, and they asked that people bring in old books as a donation.
Now, the only books I owned that I wanted to get rid of were excruciatingly boring philosophy books that were mailed to me because I was on some review list. I couldn't inflict _that_ on incarcerated people.
So I bought a copy of _Slippage_ and donated _that_.
Right now, there's probably a couple of hard-timers in Graterford working their way through "Mefisto in Onyx."
Lynn,
Big or Little Ender? What, as in that wonderfully Mormon novel? (and those of you who object to my characterization of "Ender's Game," go piss up a rope - that novel is the epitome of how a person's upbringing can inform someone's writing).
Regards,
Joseph, who's feeling much better now that the new Tori Amos album is playing on the stereo.
Surreality continues. Situation normal, all fucked up. Spent all day offline due to the hackers in China and their glorious worm/trojan horse virus known as NIMDA. Please folks, stop what you're doing right now and update your virus software as soon as you read this. This one is ugly and it doesn't fuck around.
So, while I was waiting for hourly updates on how fucked up our network was today, I plucked a little green paper back out of my bag and started reading to where it fell open.
Eidolons (in Angry Candy). If you haven't read it recently, I suggest you go back. It is oddly fitting for these strange and sorrowful times. Luckily a few more tears in public these days doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
And to finish off the day with a dash of additional the bizarre and wonderful, just got done watching 'The Dish' with Sam Neill. If you haven't seen it, well. It's not the best film I've seen in a long time but it did due a lot to wipe away the memories that have been phosphor burned onto my retina over the last week. If you haven't heard of it, it's the tale of the satellite dish in a sheep paddock in Australia. The largest in the Southern Hemisphere and the only one capable of carrying television transmissions to the rest of the planet on July 20, 1969, the day Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. Apparently, people all over the world watched that one as well. By the end and Neil's comments that (and I'm paraphrasing again) 'It is enough to inspire us all to work toward peace and tranquility on earth,' my SO and I were weeping and holding each other tightly.
I've been lighting candles on our balcony every night from about dusk until well after seven.
Jim~ Hugs, man. That's all I have to offer. We'll get through this by leaning on each other.
Brian~ My cat Pyewacket would have something to say about your hatred of cats, but he's on the lecture circuit right now and due to all the air travel foul ups, hasn't made it home yet. Suffice it to say that his favorite analogy regarding the intelligence of cats and dogs would be, "You'll never see eight cats tied to a sled and slogging through the snow in a blizzard." And as one beloved of Bast, your analogy about cat lovers and monotheistic hegemonies, well... let's just say that hasn't been my experience. And the Old Gods send their love and say to drop by for a tankard and a tall tale anytime.
Now who here is a Big Ender and who here is a Lil Ender? Hmm? Fess up. I'm taking names.
Yours,
L.
Rob,
Jeesh, and here I thought it was because my cats just don't give a shit about my pathetic attempts to teach them a trick....
Speaking of rolling on their back, one of my cats sleeps on it's back. Should I feel honored that my cat feels that safe with me to expose it's belly like that, or is my cat just an idiot?
Regards,
Joseph
Brian
Well, I'm always up-in-arms so now I'll take up the fight for cats. I have a calico; I pulled her out of the work houses of the city impound, where the right for dogs and cats to unionize and rally hasn't yet been legislated. She was working in the sweat shops there; that is, she had two weeks left before being turned into a knit Camisole by lethal injection. At any rate, she's young and she's smart - albeit a little weird. I've taught her a lot of new things since I've had her; for a cat she learns fast. Her peculiarities include rolling on her back and watching you; doing back flips; chasing you back and forth across the living room like a dog; and getting pissed when she's caught doing what she's not supposed to. She's a curious animal; she'll check out anything new in the place (she's an indoor cat because the previous owners declawed her). She's much more responsive than many cats I've seen, probably because of the way she was conditioned while growing up (which has a lot to do with the response-reflex of any animal).
Depending on the animal and depending on the trainer it is certainly possible and easy to train a cat, though, admittedly, to a lesser extent than a dog. Sometimes, if the cat can't be trained it's because that particular human isn't smart or flexible enough to know how to train it. It's not the cat's fault if you don't know its language. Both cats and dogs, though not the "smartest" of all lower orders in terms of complex association, express a wider range of emotions than any other species; that makes them unique in the animal world. Their facial muscles - which shift with moods - allow them to smile or look pissed or look wary. No other animals can do that; not with so wide a range. In effect, they actually use their expressions as their survival tools, here in the domestic jungle, as we their overseers are their unsuspecting sentimental pawns (outside of YOUR resilience, of course). If you can't train a cat, Brian, it's probably because it can perceive your blaring discriminatory umbrage.
Captious, Cool and Groovin' Forever,
Saint Francis of Assisi
Dear Stevo...
I sense you are reading this, so I just say:
Happy Birthday for September 21st!
I got one too -- in the very close vicinity ta yers -- but I don't do that shit, dig? *laugh*
Me like yer books, Stevo. Don't ever stop, K?
Birthday hug and kiss.
Heather
the insane one one the left and still a
child of Ellison
King me!
Someone on a forum said this about a Comic Buyer's Guide:
A few issues back, forgot the exact number, discussed in great lengths the proceeds and the various "walls" Harlan has run into.
Could someone enlighten me as to what was discussed?
This is a sentence I just read. It's COMPLETELY out of context now, by me putting it here, but it made me laugh, IN context:
If you want to read a book for free, go to the fucking library.
Thank you, Brian! *laugh*
I haven't said much about the WTC tragedy because, well, anything that's gone through my mind has also come out of other people's word processors, so there's not a lot I can add. (Robert Fisk, a journalist of many years' experience in the Middle East, has been exceptionally illuminating on the topic.)
There's also little I can add to the whole atheism, religion and faith discussion. I don't mean to sound snobby here, but it's all stuff I've heard before. I'm an atheist, but it's not exactly a movement I find inspiring, and some of the most obnoxious and irritating people I've ever met have been atheists. I don't like religions because, historically, they've been as likely to be vehicles for ugly politics as they have been for positive change. And I do not trust faith, because the more one relies on faith, the more one believes in cheap sentiment and mystifying platitudes. (As for the existence of God... well, you'd need a definition of God so you'd know what you were looking for, wouldn't you?)
Anyway, I miss the old Gods. They were full of grand passions, frightening mischief, and amazing capacities for fucking things up. This made them a lot more interesting, and much more sympathetic, than the imperious, humorless, mass-produced "all-Powerful" deity sold to today's consumers.
It's kind of like the difference between dogs and cats. Dogs are more intelligent, which gives them a wider repertoire of behavior, and that means that they're more likely to fuck up in amusing and sympathetic ways. It also means that they're more capable of love, sympathy, and heroism. Cats, on the other hand, have a narrow-but-very-effective repertoire of behavior-- they're nearly impossible to train, not because they're too smart to be trained, but because they're too damn _dumb_.
People who like dogs are more likely to appreciate the humanity reflected in Zeus, Apollo, Hercules and Athena. Cat lovers, however, can't shake the desire for One Big God even when they're grasping for a neo-Pagan spirituality, so they wind up disguising the Monogod as an Earth Mother, or Goddess, or what-have-you.
Did I mention that I hate cats? Okay, I hate cats.
I would like to share something with y'all; it was a bit of comedy I came up with in the aftermath of the attacks. Imagine this as a sketch from _Saturday Night Live_.
Scene opens on a press conference lectern, with an Iraqi flag behind it. A spokesman asks for calm, and announces that Saddam Hussein (complete with grandiose titles) will now address the Iraqi people with great news.
Saddam Hussein (probably Will Ferrell) comes out to camera flashes and applause. "I am pleased to announce," he begins, "that the Military forces of the mighty nation of Iraq have _shot down_... an American spy plane!"
More camera flashes. "Once again, we have shown that the might of the United States cannot crush the spirit of the Iraqi nation! No longer will we suffer the indignity of being spied upon, by---"
Now an aide is trying to get Saddam's ear. He pushes the guy away. "...And let this glorious victory stand as final proof that NO one engaged in the struggle against imperialism is as mighty a foe of the United States as I, Saddam Hussein." More flashes as Saddam smiles, and raises his arms to bask in the glory.
The aide has finally managed to whisper in Saddam's ear. Suddenly his smile starts to melt down his face. "What?... Which buildings?... The Pentagon?.... The World Trade Center _AND_ The Pentagon?"
Saddam screws on a victorious smile, but this one just can't seem that stay stuck on his face. "Once again, Iraq cam claim a great victory today, for we were able to shoot down a spy plane! Now, in case you don't know _how difficult this is_... a spy plane is only a hundred feet long, and it's moving faster than the speed of sound while it's flying at an altitude of sixty thousand feet." He illustrates this with a lot of hand gestures in the air, illustrating the process. "You really have to... be really GOOD if you want to hit one of those things. I mean,
it's not like, pfft, I dunno, flying a jet airliner into a
_building_, that's.. just _standing_ there and not even _moving....."
The press seems to have trouble understanding this. Saddam leans to his aide. "Does anyone else in the room know about this yet?"
A reporter's cell phone rings. As he takes it out, Saddam leaps across the podium and yanks it out of his hand. "That's NOT AN IMPORTANT PHONE CALL!" he yells, closing the phone. "Right now, the big news is our glorious victory over the spy plane."
"But Sir..."
"SPY PLANE!"
... and so on.
Frank
I'll have to take a look at a transcript of Maher's comments from last night; I would completely disagree with any arguments urging racial profiling. If he really said that I missed it and I don't know how. Maybe I was out of the room when he fired that one off. I agreed with most of what I DID hear. But he DOES go off the deep end on occasion - at times contradicting himself - so I wouldn't have been stunned.
Because we all need a laugh, here's a link to a funny Onion article. The professional writers among us may find it hits a little too close to home:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3732/toaster_booklet_author.html
And here's a link to an editorial about KICK:
http://www.revolutionsf.com/article/355.html
David: I don't know the exact origin of that Nin quotation; I'm not even 100% sure that Nin is the source of it. Hell, maybe *I'M* the one who came up with it, for all I know.
Jim
Rob, you're making some rather severe assumptions about what I believe. I'm just saying it's not totally out of the question that the universe may follow a conscious design. As for a super being directing all our conscious affairs, this implies something outside ourselves...which is not necessarily something I believe in. I can't declare myself an athiest because it implies the argument is finished. This is an exciting time of discovery (something that gives me hope in the midst of tragedy) and I refuse to close out any options.
Besides, and I don't know if this applies just to artists and writers, but there have been times when I've been working and the writing just flowed...effortlessly. While I am very sympathetic to skeptical arguments, there are times when I felt I've touched something greater than myself. Jung writes about the collective unconscious, a concept that has never been analyzed in a lab but has been experienced by many working in the arts. Heavy-duty writers like Ian Sinclair and Michael Moorcock have also said that sometimes they feel more like a conduit than creator. Maybe it's just subjective perception...but on the other hand, what if it's something more?
Good to see they might give Bin Ladin up. I would hate to see America just drop bombs on that country.
Mahar, on "Politically Incorrect", said that Arabs should be racially profiled on airplanes, which made my blood boil.
Notice how everybody is now a patriot? Kind of sick if you ask me. America, the idea is great, but it is the reality that we need to fix. Worse is the folks who don't even seem to care that much about what happened last week. You almost have to put a bomb up someones ass to wake them up.
Everyone is right about Religion. Belief just leads to wacky ideals. Maybe we can trade Falwell for Bin Ladin. Notice, noone is saying Falwell is a traitor for his comments.
Also, for your listening enjoyment: Bob Dylan's new album is quite good. Wonderful, pungent lyrics. Check it out folks. I know we have some lapsed hippies in here. Smile.
John
I know I'm banging my head hopelessly on a marble floor here but these exponential leaps in logic are exemplary of desperately needed faiths. We find changes in quantum theory – which has to do with discrete discharges of electrons – emerging all the time; thereby providing affirmation of an afterlife and a conscious supreme being of limitless power involving itself in our affairs, our behavior and our origins. ALL the evidence we need!
It isn’t even a leap in logic; it’s more like shooting it into a spittoon, John. I understand the emotional needs at work here. But I can tell you that spirituality CAN thrive without this disfiguration of superstition. Electrons and super-beings have nothing more to do with each other than the IRA and leprechauns.
These are notions that DEFINITELY divide us. I hold my distance. (BTW, I direct your attention to Falwell’s recent invocations following our last few threads - more examples of subjective reality).
David, Rob, et al: Thanks, guys, for some really interesting posts. Spirituality can be tricky, dangerous territory, and even though I don't consider myself an atheist, we share some surprisingly similar ideas. Actually, David, you hit on the reason I no longer consider myself an atheist. Quantum physics has radically changed a lot of our previously held notions. A guy like physicist Fritjof Capra will take that as evidence that the universe is consciously designed...but there's more than enough room for the opposing point of view as well. In a weird way, this heartens me; it means maybe the notions that divide us are dissolving.
Chuck
We pretty much established that dogmatism, zealotry, sociopathy and interolerance incubates among Atheists as much as any religious nuts; political fanaticism, I mentioned before, is often marked by the same symptoms of blind faith: the firm embrace of a doctrine and acting upon it. In his apathy I s'pose the 'atheist' is simply a bit more direct in his injunctions, maybe, in a way, even a little more forthright: "I'm removing you people from the face of the earth because I hate your race and my race is superior to yours"; no need to attribute purpose to the will of a deity or shroad emotional fever in some holy cause. His political policy of bald malignant hate is pure, simple and direct. We certainly don't need to be superstitious to commit evil acts. On the other end of it we have the resolutions of those who claim to take up arms in the name of God. Historically, a religion (mind you, I don't mean this about ALL religions or about anyone who is religious) would preach love then degenerate into absolutism and suppression of ideas and freedoms and lives (e.g., the Crusades). Hypocrisy is among the basest of human inclinations, in its condescensions and arrogance. And religion has been filled with it. Human is human however one colors his motivations or justifications. Some need fewer reasons than others to do what they do but the outcome is the same.
One more general thought: one disturbing image I get from the prospect of a long-term war in the Middle East is another entrapment of a GUERILLA war. Historically, no one seems to win when they go over to suppress a well-entrenched military (like Vietnam or the Revolutionary War), however primitive. That scares me. Does Afghanistan have the potential of becoming another Vietnam? If so, our country may be in for a hopelessly bloody loss. Whatever is in the offing we better not be naive about it because it's no longer in our hands.
Jim
I wish I'd seen the Letterman interview; it's hard to picture him in earnest. Last night Bill Maher gave a beautifully written summation of the price we're paying for long-run despondency and the question of whether we can change.
Y'know, Barbara Olsen was slated to appear on the show this week. Not that she was a guest I ever favored but I am as sadly awe-struck by the laws of probability at times as I am by last week's tragedy: she was on one of those hijacked planes for the very purpose of coming to Maher's show in LA. Among the relatively few people who were taken down in those four planes combined, among all the planes out there - she was on one of those four, the most minute sample space. The chances against it are so fucking staggering. It absolutely boggles my mind sometimes. Maher is leaving an empty seat in her behalf all this week. The tentacles of surrealism reach everywhere.
Wow, so much to comment on this morning!
Heather: I assume by the "teacher in Wyoming," you are referring to Kathy Merrick, the high school teacher in Winifred, Montana, whose contract was not renewed because she taught "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" to her junior and senior English classes, back in the early 80s. You can find a synopsis of this event on this very Web site, in my review of "An Edge In My Voice," installment 47. In brief, the local no-brains and administrators told her she was teaching godless pornography. Which, in a way, she was. And why not? (Harlan, do you know what the estimable Ms. Merrick is doing these days?)
John Thompson: you asked if atheism had caused me grief. Yes. But I wouldn't -- couldn't -- have it any other way.
I would only dispute your characterization of my universe as "mechanistic." I know it might seem so from the perspective of a person who has religious faith, who regards "mechanistic" in the sense of being "soulless" and "governed" by nothing more than the laws of physics, but I would find a universe ruled by God to be more mechanistic -- controlled and guided, with human freedom and will circumscribed -- than the organic, messy, wasteful, but free universe I inhabit. Not knowing what's next, not having a God, is what preserves the Mystery and keeps us living, growing, guessing. (You can find a somewhat more detailed and orderly delineation of this point of view in John Fowles's collection of philosophical ideas, _The Aristos_.)
Jim: Yes, absolute beliefs and opinions are straitjackets. Life, and other human beings (not to mention ourselves), are always more interesting, more complex, more loveable, than ideas. I try to believe in everything ... or nothing.
I've read a lot of Anais Nin, but don't recall the quote you mentioned. Sounds like it may have been cribbed from Camus. Somewhere in _The Myth of Sisyphus_, I think in the essay on Kafka, he talks about men's "tiresome" tendency to label as "fate" anything that crushes them; but happiness is just as inevitable, he asserts, and therefore just as fateful.
Lynn: You said a mouthful, summing up the flip side as setting "all of the glorious nature of creation down to nothing more than the chaotic procession of atoms from birth to death, all easily explainable if you know the laws of physics, full of Sturm und Drang, signifying nothing" and thereby discrediting "the Mystery and all the wonders contained therein."
Perhaps this may come as a surprise to you, but contrary to your closing remark, I not only understand what you wrote, but largely subscribe to it. That's because you didn't characterize my atheism very well at all, but a fairly common form of cynicism (common to youth and the intellectually exhausted, I think), which we might term "scientific fundamentalism."
I DON'T think it is all "easily explainable." There are many many things we do not know, and I believe will never know or understand. Physics itself has developed to a point where it has moved into what one historic Christian theologian called a cloud of unknowing. One of my favorite forms of baiting the rubes, when the Internet was younger, was to go on a newsgroup and refer casually to science as "just another form of storytelling." It was most amusing to see how many people became emotionally unhinged at the notion.
Where I part ways with both you and such true believers of rationalism is in placing the sense of wonder and beauty (on your part) and Sturm und Drang (on theirs) firmly within our limited perception. Of course we think the universe is wondrous and beautiful, or ghastly and cold. That's our mind, our values, our limited point of view, at work. We happen to be here to congratulate ourselves on our good fortune to inhabit such a terrific place (or to feel pain over its unfeeling workings).
Think of how a horsefly would rhapsodize about the beauty and utility of a pile of manure if he were possessed of consciousness and could speak. Think, on the other hand, of how an ant would weep and moan if she had such capacity, after one of us careless behemoths kicked over her anthill? It's all a matter of perspective.
Matt: While I agree largely with the perspective from which you posted, I am afraid I cannot go so far as to express a faith "that humankind is constantly bettering itself." For one thing, there's too much evidence to suggest portions of humankind have bettered themselves at the cost of other portions (that includes you and me). For another, we better ourselves in ways that too often hurt the other creatures and the world we share.
I'm afraid we are not too long for this universe as a species; it may be already too late. But that's no reason to give up, to stop trying, to act as if humankind were not destined to survive for many further millennia and to populate the stars -- any more than the certain knowledge that my body is breaking down and is destined to die should prompt me to despair and kill myself now. We go on with the glorious experiment, and do the best we can, and comfort one another.
And finally, a much smaller issue, but one close to my heart --
Adam: Is correcting the grammar of others a problem? Yes and no.
The problem is in thinking it matters enough to correct others; usually, that's not necessary, because those people are not enforcing the law, or enacting public policy, or practicing medicine or therapy ... but merely engaging in everyday communication, and you and everybody else in the vicinity understands what they meant. Correcting them too often signifies (or at least can be taken by others as) an expression of your superiority, which ultimately gets in the way of clear and productive communication because people simply aren't going to want to talk around you anymore.
It DOES matter enough to remain aware of poor grammar, however. Poor use of language encourages poor thinking. Unclear wording preserves unclear reasoning. You should keep yourself aware of grammar, of the rules, so that you may remain in control of your language, and not let it control you (in the form of cliches, easy answers, sloppy logic, etc.)
And part of the reason is so you will know when you break the rules, and do it consciously, because it's the most effective way to do what you want to do. Take the famous example from the epilogue to Star Trek: I don't think there's any more forceful and therefore effective way to say "To boldly go where no man has gone before," even though it does indeed split the infinitive.
You need to get to know each person well enough to know whether he or she appreciates having grammatical or logical slips being brought to his or her attention ... and find a way for you to do that graciously, considerately.
There's a very nice, new review of HE's screenplay, I, Robot, which is given an A+ rating: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/current/classic.html
Joseph: I saw it, too. Letterman's words were heartfelt and deeply moving.
Rick: I wish I could give your essay the full attention it deserves, but I'm really tired right now. From the cursory reading I gave it, I can tell you it seems just fine to me.
Xanadu/Cookie/Michael/Heather(did I forget anyone?):
Thank you all for your positive energy. I'm ok, really I am--I know I can get quite gloomy at times (really, Jim?), but I usually rebound with alacrity. Still, when I'm low, my patented aura of despair could make the Teletubbies pull a Heaven's Gate.
Today was actually not-so-bad. I finally heard from my old friend David, who is safe and sound, having moved out of NYC well before the terrorist attacks; I even managed to get through the day without tearing up ONCE (amazing feat, that). Perhaps, as I fear, humanity IS wired for self-immolation, but I must, must, MUST act in a way that denies its death instinct any help or encouragement.
Because even if the bulk of life is just a waltz to distract our attention from the scythe above our heads, shouldn't we try to dance as gracefully and as joyfully as we can?
Still, my heart is broken, and I don't know when or even if it will completely mend. Maybe it SHOULDN'T. Maybe it's the invisible scar I need to wear, to remind me to live as fully in the moment as humanly possible.
Because we never know when we'll hear the hiss of the scythe.
Regarding this bugbear of a discussion about religion...I really don't have that much to say, but I want to make one point:
I realize more and more with each passing day that absolute beliefs and opinions are straitjackets. They may be stylishly cut in the latest fashion, they may look JUST darlin' on you, but they are straitjackets, just the same. Whenever ANYONE is unable to say, "Of course, I could be wrong," then intellectual death and spiritual perversion is virtually preordained. If you cannot question your credo, when you construct a impenetrable fortress of the mind, then you have the mentality that allows you to pilot a passenger jet into a building full of people. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Wiccan, WHATEVER you are, know this: Your belief (or lack thereof) should be a wondrous prism that turns the blinding, ineffable light of existence into a orderly rainbow.
It shouldn't be an axe that plunges into the skulls of others.
Some words of wisdom:
"Happiness, too, is inevitable."--Anais Nin
"So I personally have faith that even in this lousy situation we're faced with we can make it. You get me?"
--THE THREE STIGMATA OF PALMER ELDRITCH, by Philip K. Dick
"I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you
and even though
it all went wrong
I'll stand before the Lord of Song
with nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah."
--"Hallelujah," by Leonard Cohen
Hallelujah, indeed.
Jim
Re: Religion, fanaticism
It's true that people have taken religion and turned it into something ugly at times. Sometimes ugly and stupid, Like that Little Cherub, Rev. Falwell.
Still, Stalin and Mao were both supposed to be atheists and they killed some fifty million people between them. These two weren't fanatics, they were sociopaths - Ice Men. They used people up and threw them away like kleenex. This had nothing to do with what they did or did not believe, they were two cold-hearted bastards who saw people as mere objects. I've seen people of all persuasions who's "souls" were nothing more that ice caverns.
If I were define what I believe, I guess I would use the word heretic. It's not that hard to become one. All you have to do is ask some seemingly innocent question, and sure enough there is someone who's 'belief system' has been violated. Maybe I'm an agnostic, for I'm not sure I believe in a God, at least not in the same sense as most organized religions. Mine is a bit disorganized, I suppose, just the way I like it.
I used to practice an orgainzed religion of sorts. A friend of mine made it up. I was a gen-yu-wine Frisbeterian. We Frisbeterians believed that when you die, you fly up onto a roof and never come down again.
Chuck
I've been reading what Jim and some others said here about the evil of mankind and the despair it inculcates in us, and musing on it all last night, and I've written something that I hope might explain where I'm coming from on this. It's called "Something Like a Star."
It's a very rough draft, it needs serious pruning, the unremorseful destruction of a number of adverbs, the deletion of some repetitive language. But I'd really appreciate it if a few of you could take a look, before tomorrow afternoon when it's dated, and send me your criticism and suggestions for revision IN EMAIL (for god's sake not HERE).
There's a word document and plain text, the word doc is obviously superior as it has formatting:
http://rickwyatt.com/star.doc
http://rickwyatt.com/star.txt
God damn it -
That should be teary.
Anyone else impressed with how Letterman handled himself tonight? It's been probing, respectful and grieving.
I'll admint - I've been teaey watching Letterman and Dan Rather talking.
Heather - Re: The Wyoming teacher. Depends on which story, and how old the students are. Do you have a link to an article? I haven't heard of this.
Mitch
just had an image of a pop-up edition of 'Bleeding Stones', with scratch-n-sniff.
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/Creatist/Images/Angel1/WingedNature1.jpg
Title: "Untitled1"
"I'm listening."
"I know."
Jeremy turned to her.
"My god, why are you CRYING like that? What's the matter?"
"Nothing's the matter. I can feel you LISTENING, that's all. You have no idea how wonderful a sensation that is. It makes me cry--it's suddenly there, welling up my sides and the bottom of my throat. I could have froze on that ledge. But I turned, looked up instead of down, and followed the path that led me to you. Don't you see?"
"I...I...I'm not sure. Tell me more."
"Did you ever read the quote by that author--I forget his name--but there was an animal in it--a lion or a leopard or something. And he was climbing a hill, or a mountain, maybe, and he got lost, following this one path--it seemed so RIGHT for so long; but it was the wrong one, or, well, it didn't reach very high and the air was pretty dull, and the grass that grew on the path was rather bland and dry--it had no taste. But he followed this path for a long time--it wasn't even a well-beaten path; and it had its share of rocks and lime and rhinestone but he got pretty bored with it after a while.
Then one morning, the sun rose and he crooked his head and looked off to his left and saw...
a bevy of sparrows feeding on tall cat tail-like grass--they perched on the long, bending stalks--four or five birds at a time--he'd never SEEN so many sparrows in one place. He'd only seen sparrows grouped in twos or threes, maybe; not thirty or forty--all their mink brown bodies, feathering in the autumn breeze--two by twenty twins of mottled specks, with wings of light and mud shadow. Scratching their heads against their backs--their tiny, tiny oh so frail little bodies--like the birdies I see in the pet store; so tiny--so frail--and here there was a bevy of them, tip-tapping the seed fallen on the rocks. He got up and started off toward them, following them, moving, moving, to another place, to another level of mind--and then I found you...here."
"Me? What are you talking about me? I thought we were just talking about a leopard?"
"We were. _I_ was that leopard. I changed my path, I followed those birds; those creatures of muse and music and they led me to you. And I love you."
"I know that. What made you say that just now?"
"I hadn't realized it til just now."
"What do you mean, til just now? You've been saying that almost from the beginning."
"Yes, I know, I know. Something's just fallen into place. Don't worry. I'm fine. I found myself, then I found you. Or one and the same."
"You're silly."
"I know. I love you."
"I love you too."
+++
Feed Harlan's kitty
Help Harlan Ellison KICK Internet Piracy
http://www.harlanellison.com
Ah...here's a good one for Jim. I knew I just read it somewhere:
"We can succeed in direct proportion to the strength of our own belief systems."
Silly me, Not sure who this was. Lawrence Block, maybe?
Oh, and question: Why would a teacher in Wyoming lose her job over teaching one of Harlan's stories? I don't get this.
Reading my notes to self:
Stephen King is nice--real nice. But I don't wanna be nice; I wanna be REAL. Harlan's real. I wanna be real like him.
Cookie:
I have the two great Ellisons back-to-back.
Swift is ANOTHER great I want to revisit.
Harlan Ellison prays to the god, I D E A.
Adam:
One question: Do you mentally correct YOUR grammar?
(Or, as the case may be, your grampar?)
+++
Quote:
"Their attitude is, we're just yokels out in the provinces and they can cherry-pick our ideas."
Stacey Chase, who sued People magazine for doing a story he'd done all the legwork on, paid him a kill fee; then wrote it inhouse. (obviously, at less cost to the magazine)
I think I have a problem.
In the few years since I graduated high school, I've been mentally correcting the grammar of others. This morning, whilst combing my hair, I found myself thinking of a split infinitive I'd heard at work the other day, and I thought to myself, "Shit! I really have a problem!"
Is this a problem about which I should be concerned, or has life in Gwinnett County finally gotten to my head?
Please note: This, of course, is not my biggest problem; rather, it's the one I felt would be best aired in this forum.
Idea: Buy/sell California/Florida/GOOD oranges for KICK kitty -- fruit is accessible ANYWHERE.
Drink Harlan Ellison orange juice, for your acerbic acid.
Have some Harlan, freshly s q u e e z e d.
Chris:
Your parents ARE still around. Simply look in a mirror...
Xanadu:
Hear, hear.
I'm not getting into these convos; I've been down this road before. But you all "go girl/boy!' now. Tis your right to discuss, dig?
I got 'hit' hard, in my own way with things like Vietnam--maybe it was the age I was at when it happened (in fact, looking at the mood of a 20 odd-year old friend of mine, right now; I KNOW it has a bit to do with one's age -- mental or emotional, that is). That was a too real reality for me once.. I went through all the accompanying machinations of that time. There have been a few "critical" periods in my life, SINCE then, as well.
We all have to "work through" situations that unnerved us/ scare us / bother us.
But Jim?
It's cliche, but like my dad says:
Never let the bastards wear you down.
Clear?
Heather
child of Webderland
I'm warmin' up, Peg. Been a long hangover from last Tuesday.
Time to set the rhetoric on simmer and to think, reflect, and be for a bit.
I reflect best when putting notes together. Sometimes the words get in the way.
carryin' on a continuous "prayer" of scat
(diddly daht'n dweeelya doot'n shoo bee doo BOP!)
Tryin' to read some classic satire ("Gulliver's Travels") and some nice music essays by the OTHER wonderful Ellison: Ralph. Am enjoying the essays in the Modern Library's LIVING WITH MUSIC, an anthology of Ralph Ellisons essays, letters, and liner notes.
Attention span has somewhat dwindled, though (and it wasn't so great to begin with). Sometimes I catch myself gazing far too long at stiletti and other sexy shoes in Cosmo. I feel this odd attraction to "going stupid" just to rest from TRYIN' so hard.
I sure am trying! (and I do mean that in EVERY way. As a verb and also as an adjective).
You people are great. I'm glad you allow me to write in front of you.
John,
Grief?
As Woody Allen said: "The chief problem about death is the fear that there may be no afterlife - a depressing thought, particularly for those who have bothered to shave. And then there is the fear that there IS an afterlife but no one will know where it's being held".
Next to the notion of living a lie, vegetating is the only grief I could conceive.
Matt writes: >
Thank you for not discrediting my life's experiences. You do honor to your fellow athiests by not calling my beliefs "delusional". What was it Harlan once wrote? "You don't know me and I don't know you."
Rob, let me start out by saying the way I 'believe' is very strange, even against my own reckoning. I don't believe that religion is the antithesis of learning, I believe that *dogma* is the enemy you seek to name. I believe many things, and my search is never-ending. If anything, the more I learn, the more I want to know. And my beliefs are contradictory, and (I like to think) transcend the limitations that most people choose to put on their religion (mostly due to an adherence to dogma). Call me wishy-washy, I think my spirit is just hungry and derives rich nourishment from the vast and sundry tales of deity. In that regards, I think I actually agree with Harlan that Humanity is God.
I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who put forth that giving the credit for building the pyramids to aliens from another planet only undermined the glorious ability of man to do amazing things. (Paraphrased, butchered, however you choose.) I believe that the flipside of the coin is to set all of the glorious nature of creation down to nothing more than the chaotic procession of atoms from birth to death, all easily explainable if you know the laws of physics, full of Sturm und Drang, ultimately signifying nothing. In my limited understanding, to believe that would be to discredit the Mystery and all the wonders contained within. (Not to mention expressing the incredible arrogance of drunken naked monkeys with typewriters thinking they've solved the last puzzle, there are no more puzzles to solve.)
But that's just my personal point of view and I really don't expect anyone else to understand it, much less subscribe to it.
Warmest Regards,
L.
John,
I'll lend my views to your question that was directed toward Rob. If my spiritual views were to be labeled, I suppose that the closest one would be "athiest."
(The following views apply only to me - I'm sure that others will have different views)
I do not feel grief in not believing in a divine power. I also do not think I have an inability to believe. I would say that I choose not to believe because I find no evidence of a divine power. If offered evidence, I could easily believe.
I do not find the world an empty one. I find comfort and hope in the accomplishments of the human spirit. My "heaven," if you will, is the goodness of the human spirit; the accomplishments of humankind in art, science, good-will toward each other, etc... My "hell" is the evil in mankind. This past week has seen much of both. There is a constant war being fought between the two.
I may not believe in "God" but never say that I do not have spirituality or faith. I have faith that humankind is constantly bettering itself, regardless of setbacks. Even so, many things stay the same and there are many "speed bumps" on the journey.
Although I do not understand how life started or why, I do not believe that there is a "God" behind it. I believe that there is a scientific explanation, although I am unsure as to whether humans will ever understand it. I am not afraid that I may never understand it, but I have faith in the science of it and I will continue to pursue the truth of it.
I do not know what will happen when I die, but I do not fear death. I hope that when I do die I have made a worthy contribution to the betterment of humankind. I may never know if I have, but I will certainly try my best. I will die comforted by that. If I have done what I wanted to do, then THAT is my immortality.
There are humans out there that I am connected to. It is not merely limited to friends and family. When I read or see something that is intellectually or emotionally stimulating, I know that I have learned something more about myself, and I may then pass it on. I am not alone - someone has touched me, and I will continue that chain.
If there is a God, I am not afraid of retribution for not believing. A being who created me to possess the free will and the quest for knowledge and truth that I have, if I ever meet him/her/it, will be a teacher.
I am not hampered by views of "right" or "wrong" that the belief in a "supreme" being often is shackled with. I accept anyone and everyones beliefs, though I may not agree with them. I judge people by their actions alone.
I feel free.
(Note: I am not bashing religion - although I have seen the church hurt many people (some friend of mine, even). However, many people who do believe in a "God" are more enlightened than I am and I am by no means saying that those who believe are uninformed or blind or any such thing. It's just not for me.)
-Matt
I'm not Rob but I am an atheist. To answer your question, my lack of belief in God does not cause me any grief at all.
However, my lack of belief in an afterlife does make me sad. I'd like to think my parents were still around somehow, in some form and that I'd get to see them again. I'd like to think it but I'm more interested in the truth than in a comforting self-delusion. Wish I wasn't though. It'd be nice to think they were out there watching and waiting.
Rob, got a question for you. As an athiest, has your belief in a random, mechanistic universe ever caused you grief? The reason I ask is because I found a really interesting quote from T. Coraghessan Boyle (you can find said quote on The Celebrity Atheist page--www.celebathiest.com--along with quotes by Harlan and Clive Barker). Boyle says his inability to believe in the divine has caused him considerable grief over the years. I felt the same king of angst when I considered that the mystery so many seek might just be a vast, empty void. This is why I prefer to keep an open mind these days. I still consider myself a fundamentally rational person but I do leave room in my personal philosophy for the kind of transcendence writers like Blake and Huxley explored.
Rob,
I was going to reply but decided to email instead, I'm sure the crowd here is ready for the next act.
Cookie, you warmed up??
Peg
Peg
I did a lot of frantic babbling in that last post, nearly to the point of being incoherent. I was supposed to be out the door to meet some friends by then, so it was rushed and unfocused. All I was getting at was if we are committed to a faith we may not close our "learning valves", i.e. block our minds from new ideas, until confronted by new data that might imperil our long-cherished convictions; any open-mindedness you'd displayed prior would vanish. You would be open to learn many new things up to a point; but if your most fervent beliefs were challenged you would hear none of it. Even in the wake of proven facts. But as I said, maybe YOU wouldn't be like that at all (which could prove you an agnostic, I guess); but many, many people are. That's the inherent nature of religion: inspiration provides the answers you need in life. Ones you wouldn't want to see pushed aside. I would be troubled myself to find out at the end of it all that I'd spent a lifetime committed to a lie. And you COULD be doing just that.
In summary, if there's a conscious being involved in our trifling affairs or our existence in any way I would need to see the evidence. We know too little about the universe and hold to little wisdom to presume things. And we live reality too subjectively.
cookie - no twist or distortion - that is EXACTLY what I challenged.
Our actions are our own, and no matter how small you think the good to be - if, at the end of the day, the balance is just -ever so slightly- favoring good, we will win. Some are positioned to do great good - most are not - size, quality and degree are not important.
We can all get so caught up in the larger horror, that we might forget - unless we were there, unless we could have stopped them personally, we can't carry that freight.
It's your life - did YOU do good?
Cookie,
No apologies! If you had a normal day, and took care of your business, you are doing the right thing. If you learned something to teach to others, that's a triumph. Sometimes that's the best we can do, especially if we're far away from the epicenter of these events. I, too, have a rehearsal tonight...and all I can hope for is to do my best, to create something that might affect someone else in a positive way. Hold that head up high, girl...you're doing what you can. We all are.
Yesterday I taught my daughter to make green chile stew. It made her smile, and we then fed my family and a few friends. A tiny victory? Maybe. But I'll take them where I can find them.
It may all be just "drops in the reservoir." But it's a damn big reservoir, and there's millions of us putting in the drops. Let's fill that puppy.
Best to all,
M
Sorry Xan and everyone for the bad corruption of Xanadu's challege to "You- sitting there...."
I think what I'm doing is good. Even if it's a drop in the reservoir.
Maybe I could do more, but right now, I'm doin' what I can.
Jus' doin'.
"What did you do today?"
I listened to Ella.
I listened to some modern hardbop.
I learned a hard rhythm to teach at rehearsal tonight.
I cleaned my house
I ate.
I saw my shrink.
I took my medication.
Take care of yourselves as well as others. To find peace requires finding your inner peace and using your outrage to combat that which destroys peace. At least, that's what I'm thinking right now.
Jim, maybe this old sigfile of mine will make you feel better.
"Life is a continuous process of pain, anguish, loneliness, and despair. However, we cannot let the occasional flashes of joy and happiness distract us from this fact."
-- Brian Siano
Jim - As I read your comment, I realize that this is the hinge upon which all of our current threads, (with the possible exception of Heather's KICK push), rest.
Perception.
"Reality", such as it is, is inextricably linked to it. Our thoughts, responses and beliefs are colored by it so thoroughly we may be incapable of rising beyond them - and maybe that doesn't matter.
I could tell you that a simple glance at the numbers is all the reassurance you need to understand that humanity, blight that it may be, is fundamentally good. If we double, triple, quadruple or raise by a factor of ten, those directly involved in the evil perpetrated Tuesday, and compare it to those arrayed against it dimished by by a factor of a hundred, the balance is so overwhelming in favor of "good" it's still not a fair comparison.
But you won't perceive that. You may see that the horror wrought by so few dimishes us all. I don't know, and again, maybe it doesn't matter.
Rob, Harlan, et al - I might say there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy - that any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science. But you may not believe it - 'sokay by me.
Peg and the others - I might say that a Omniscient God precludes the concept of Free Will - thus your Loving Father allowed, or more horrifically, caused this to happen. But you won't believe, and that's fine, it doesn't really matter.
I could go on, but I think you all see my point. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
What matters is how you act. And, you need to understand that you can't change the actions of any other human being.
That's it.
You are not responsible, no one is responsible, for anything but themselves and their own behaviour, regardless of belief, faith or perception.
The mess o' pottage we all call rational thought is irrelevant.
If you want the world to be a better place, make it so. Leave it just a little better than you found it. Maybe you have the talent, skill, or luck of position to cause widespread good. Maybe you can only help one small corner of an ever-chaotic world. Maybe you can only help yourself. It doesn't matter.
It is in the doing that we are redeemed - when we can say, humanity is good - because while the vast majority simply exists, spending not a thought or moment on anything larger than what's for dinner tonight, I left things just -that much- better.
We can't stop the bad guys all the time, but we can balance the scales.
You - sitting there reading this - have you done good today? Did you try?
We CAN balance the scales.
Dima: Thanks! I may take you up on the offer if I keep hitting walls.
God, it's hard keeping up with you people! It was easier when I was lurking :)
Charlie - Oops, sorry, I don't know why I remembered that it was David who said that. Have AUB been giving you trouble? If there's anything I can do to help you from over here, just tell me and I'll try.
Jim - Thanks, I also thought that it would do some good if I posted. I was a little apprehensive about it, but I've been reading these boards for a while, and I knew that most people here were open-minded, and generally non-judgememtal. I also totally agree with you about terrorism, and I hope that at least some of the people in power think like us.
Peg & Lynn - You go girls! I don't want to get into a discussion on religion (partly because there are people here who are much better at arguing than me!), but I'm glad someone's sticking up for it anyway. Oh and Lynn, I loved your window analogy :)
Alex - Thanks for the welcome, I'm sure I'll stick around for a long time if the company's always this good :)
Rob - I *think* I understand what you are trying to say. It's a perspective that colors the information you receive. I can agree with you that a person's perspective on God, the supernatural, the lack thereof, etc., can impact how they might interpret the exact same piece of information. As can their perspective on any number of philosophies or issues. If so, though, I would classify your "non-belief" atheist stance as much of a road block to learning as you would my faith.
There is a difference, too, between willingness to hear an idea versus accepting an idea as true and correct. Accepting that something can be *this* way without understanding *why* is difficult for many people. This also comes in to play as much about the source of the information as the information itself - esp. if the source is one typically contrary to the individual's perspective or is considered unreliable in view of the general public.
Other than that, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about faith having a worse impact on the ability to learn and openmindedness than any other world view. There are similar examples in the "objective" sciences where groups clung to various theories (or espoused theories as fact without evidence) despite scientific data to the contrary, sometimes even after having been physically proved wrong. We're all susceptible.
TTFN..... Peg
I don't want to write this.
Part of me hates my persistent misery over Tuesday's events, and wonders if I even LOVE feeling this way, love the smug satisfaction that, yes, Virginia, the world really IS as callous as I've always suspected it to be.
I want to be positive. I want to be heartened by the unbelievable bravery and heroism of the firefighters and police officers who ran to certain death in the burning WTC towers. I want to be uplifted by the nobility of the passengers of UA Flight 93 who made a last, almost-certainly suicidal stand to prevent the massacre of numberless innocent people. I want to be enobled by the selflessness of the thousands of volunteers who are digging through smoking rubble and hideous gore to rescue even ONE survivor.
I want something that will wash this stain from my ruined heart.
It's hard. It's so fucking hard.
I just wonder if the human race isn't some genetic mistake, if all our vaunted intelligence is good for nothing more than devising newer and better ways of inflicting misery and pain. We build achingly beautiful works of art, devise elegent theoroms of science and mathematics , construct dazzling philosophical realms, and yet none of this quells our bloodlust, our hatred, our thanatotic drive to the grave.
We build it up, we rip it down. We piss and shit and smear blood on anything beautiful. WE NEVER STOP TURNING THIS PLANET INTO AN CHARNEL HOUSE. NEVER.
Jesus. Let the cockroaches take over. I'll throw away my cans of Raid right now.
Knowing I'll feel better in the morning,
and fearing that what I've written is true,
and hoping I'll act as if I'm wrong anyway,
and promising everyone that I won't bring them down like this again,
Jim
Hey ya three thumbs up to Peg. She was the only one who stood up for me or even gave me any kind of compassion at all when Wyatt ranked on me due to misunderstandings and motto of act first question later.
Peg, sometimes these guys get cutthroat with their blustering beliefs, sometimes a group of parlance chest butters, but when it comes down to it they probably mean no harm and are scribe hashing prototypes for their own fluid belief systems so they can go through daily life with as little confusion as possible. If someone would bother putting you or your ideas down at all, perhaps it is threatening in some way. Maybe they just had a really severe nun teacher as a kid adn have been scared ever since. This is a scary time when religious people are trying to get teh masses all riled up against a bunch of people we never met before, innocent people. The government is selling vengeful war hype to religious types in a neat packet of good vs evil. It is your sons, the teenage believers, who will sign up to go fight and die by the hand of some 12 yr old "evil" afgaani BOY, not the men in power, not Bush. He doesn't have to fight he just sits in his office and pushes buttons and picks his teeth(and perhaps gets replaced by a clone every couple months).
Brian: Creepy cultural reference? Watch the end of Fight Club. I was watching it this afternoon for the first time in a while and the ending caught me by surprise.
Dennis
With the recent events at the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and in PA, I realize that the best and worst comes out in people at such times. Having said that, I would like to apologize on behalf of any of my fellow Virginians with half a brain in their heads for the piece of crap known as Jerry Falwell. I take a certain amount of pride at keeping my composure, but all I could think about after his diatribe was driving the 1.5 or so hours to Lynchburg and personally delivering a broken glass enema that Torquemada would have admired.
*sigh*
On a better note, bushels of thanks to Susan for the recent HERC goodies. A most welcome respite from the doldrums of day-to-day life and they got here PDQ after DragonCon. Muchas gracias.
Peg
I had to respond to that, "I'm sorry it had that affect on you" quickly. Not to slam the piano cover on your fingers but it didn't have that affect on me anymore than you say it didn't on you. It's an inherent problem with a 'belief' whether you acknowledge or not; it may vary in degrees with everyone. But either you firmly accept one reality or your reality. In effect, you know what you need to know about who and what we are or your mind is open to new data as it comes forth that might topple concepts you previously committed yourself to. I'm really referring to the greater effect it has on the human race, not just one person. I'd like to refer you to what happened to Copernicus for 1,000 years because of religion; talk to Galileo about the impositions of religion; talk to people in the 19th century who were committed to the passages of the Bible that foretold the date of Armageddon, selling all they had - EVERYTHING - and sat foolishly through the night only to greet the dawn and no more than that. Because of their blind unquestioning faith they were now destitute. Examples through history of the "closed learning valves" go on, with far sharper examples. But that's really the sort of thing I'm referring to; but individuals certainly have different reactions to things. It depends on the kind of information that reaches you; if you are committed to a faith it is possible there are some things you would refuse to hear. Maybe you wouldn't. But there are many who would. And that's my point, sometimes an issue about the human race that concerns me.
Take care, I wish you the best in this confusing time.
Title: Seesaw...
Hello, my name is Margery Daw. I am 51 years old and I want to tell you something. Do you have a moment?
I once had a boyfriend who was my first and deepest love. No; I wasn't young at the time; I was 37. It happens, y'know?
We had this conversation once, as to why he stayed with his wife--yes; he was married when I fell in love with him--why he stayed, if he didn't love her.
He'd returned to the office late one night. I would wait for him there as he worried about us being seen in public--I didn't care then; I was in love. (Funny, the things you do, eh?) He'd been drinking that night--something he rarely did--and he smoked a few joints while we nattered--again, a habit he'd returned to only recently.
The business was going through a changeover. We were looking for new sources of revenue. His current clients were being the usual stupes: waking him from a dreamless sleep; calling him at all hours on the cell phone he carried like an extra limb; asking him stupid questions they could have found the answer to if they'd only bothered to crack open the manual instead of using it as a drink coaster or paperweight. Everyone at the firm wished he'd turn the damn thing off occasionally--it was burning him out. He did once. He took his five-year-old, slate blue cell phone from the holster on his belt and threw at the far wall of the office, smashing it beyond repair. I was alone with him when he did this--it scared the hell outta me. (He used to fire me at least once a month. I didn't know I was capable of screaming at someone til I met him. We had arguments--lots of arguments. I'm not sure why I stayed. I had something to learn about love, I guess.)
Anyway, I asked him again why he went on and on, criticizing his wife that night. "Why don't you just leave her?" I said.
He turned to me on the sofa, his eyes a bit red from smoking, and said:
"I'm afraid of being alone."
"Alone?" I said. "What do you mean 'alone'? We're ALL alone."
He squinted at me and put the joint down on a beer cap.
"We're ALL alone," I said. "We come into the world alone, and we leave the world alone. The idea is to make good 'connections' with people, places, and ideas while we are here."
"Easy for YOU to say," he smirked.
"I don't get you," I said, leaning back on a cushion and sipping my Sprite. I threw the rest of the slice of pizza down on the pizza box lid and looked at him.
+++
the scent of you still lingers
I breathe the sweet of you...
at the base of my fingers and the palm
of my still warm hand
our fingers interlace
and we dance a dance of warmth
and calming still
the hammock sways in the deep of evening light
we lie awake and watch the moonlit night
the stars they slumber
in the graying pale
of mists and moist and you.
+++
the midnight sky
dips my arms in mellow moon drop
I drape against a willow
and I remember you.
You were here one night but now
you're gone...
and the mosquito grass
we laid upon
is brown and brittle against my knees.
I breathe out slowly
the ache is now a cold memory
and the summer of our
blending, beating, connecting
has snapped...
like a twig in a fire-wrought
forest, every last membrane singed
and sapped of its point
of being or becoming.
++++++
Feed Harlan's kitty
Help Harlan KICK Internet Piracy
http://www.harlanellison.com/kick
I've been noticing a lot of creepy cultural references over the past few days, but the most awful one I've seen so far is the album cover that's been pulled for The Coup's forthcoming album "Party Music" - you can see it here:
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/0%2C1518%2C157006%2C00.html
Another creepy culture reference that's taken on new significance. I was watching an old episode of Family Guy, and the scene involves the baby Stewey in an airport. The security people yank his backpack and sy, "Everything's gotta be checked." So, to keep them from noticing the weaponry in the Xray machine, Stewey starts singing "On the Good Ship Lollipop." the security guards, watching with aww-cute grins, don't notice that his backpack's xray reveals a hacksaw, a machine gun, etc.
Pulling the backpack on, Stewey says, "As long as Osama Bin Laden doesn't know any show tunes, we're probably safe."
Camera pans over to Osama Bin Laden, in line at the security check area, singing something from _A Chorus Line_.
Think that'll turn up on rebroadcast?
Chris L.,
Also creepy, besides "Fury," was "The Adventures of Superman," with damage shots from around the world after DC's big summer crossover war. Of course, one of them was the WTC with big holes being repaired.
As someone, I think it was Richard Roeper in the Sun-Times, said, we'll be able to tell from now on when something was filmed or drawn before September 11th.
Everyone,
God bless atheists!
Regards,
The Smart Ass formerly known as Joseph
Pay no attention to this one: It's for ME to come back and look at.
Politics. Internet Piracy. Dealing with people out there (not here--I said pay attention) A little bit depressing.
*sigh*
Anyway, back to what I was doing. As you were.
H
Thanks for the reassurance. I'm glad we can agree there is a difference between faith and religion.
What I find sad and strange is how twisted perceptions and practices can be. The churches I have attended since converting preach against being religious, legalistic, and ritualistic, and focus on faith and the Bible (one of the key differences from my experience being raised Roman Catholic.) We're taught to not be judgemental and to love one another. That doesn't seem to be the general public view of christians, though. Either there are far too many judgemental churches, or the more public figures associated with christians must present a distorted view of the faith and lifestyle. (I don't watch televangelists or politics so perhaps I'm not missing much!).
Lynn - a small point. In my mind, I wouldn't group fundamentalists with televangelists or religious activists (of which there are many denominations represented). The separation I'm trying to effect is between those who place themselves in the public and political arena, often with extreme views, from those who practice their faith in a personal way.
Most political activists are trying to convert people by legislation or by policy. I generally believe that no cause is served by forcing "morality", or more accurately tenets of faith, on other people by legislation. Free will means that people have to be able to choose, and in a country this size, based on democracy, that equates to there being choices with which I will disagree.
Rob - having faith (excuse me, *delusions*) hasn't closed my learning valves, or those of many others I know. Sorry to hear it had that affect on you.
Okay, I'm done on the subject, don't want to draw this into a string of posts debating faith, religion, fanaticism, and who makes the best matzah balls in town. Besides, the only person I was interested in converting was Harlan, and he's obviously a lost cause! ;-)
[OK, in case it's misconstrued, that was supposed to be funny. Now you know why I'm an engineer.]
Thanks again,
Peg
While Harlan is busy running down Jews for Jesus I'll toast to '5762: A Space Odyssey'.
Lynn,
Respectfully, just to drop my own stain on the spectrum, I like to assert Atheism as a Rationalistic acknowledgment of the order of evidence necessary to interpret the Universe and existence in lieu of living the subjective reality our brains so easily create to compensate for missing information. I know technically the definition of Atheism tends to render it a "credence" but to me it is a "non-belief"; a means to keep the learning valves open to enable growth of real understanding about this mystery called existence. It is not something I need to have "work for me". My need is to grow. To accept in faith an improbable "alternate reality", like some conscious entity with an array of supreme narly powers, tends to create a vacuum for the need to learn; if I'm treating that faith as a reality then I don't need to learn anything else. My faith provides the answers for me. Moreover, I will strive to deny alternatives to my faith; I'll repudiate anything that might rattle the foundations of my dogma as I've committed my life to it.
Some people admittedly need the delusions for emotional reasons; it provides a reality that isn't there. In that need they dare not remind themselves that it's all rooted in tenets set down by primitive people thousands of year ago with no technology to analyze their environment. Can we really believe that they held such wisdom with so little reference? Superstition has a parallel history with technology; it attached itself to our social development like toenail fungus - along with the passions and hypocrisies. The more we look across the span of history the more evidence mounts against the plausibility of ANY superstition. It's just too easy for us to form conclusions from what we see with little or no data; we rationalize rather than research. It's in our nature. Ergo, God is a creation of man.
So, I regard Atheism as an objective condition. Not a belief nor a "need". That doesn't mean a state of spiritualism can't exist. I experience the universe with a massive spectrum of emotions: awe, inspiration, wonder and, most importantly, an insatiable desire to learn more and more about it. And for me that's the key: to keep the learning valves open. The presumptions of any blind faith tend to close those valves. I'll add that while growing up I WAS religious; I followed several spiritual beliefs - fanatically. (I also had a scientific side and that would one day make me stand back and study things; that was complicated so I won't get into that now). I know, subjectively, how real our minds can make things seem when it compensates for a lack of information; emotional feedback overwhelms any need for confirmation. Emotions alone can do all the 'confirming' for us.
Well, that's my angle on it. I'll give you a break and end my sermon there.
All my best.
Title: Ask Me Anything
"Ask me anything!" boomed the man as Shauna Tay watched him submit his finished post. "I owe you a favor."
"No, ya don't," said Shauna Tay. "Computers are a pain in the ass sometimes. Glad I could help ya out. Actually, I COULD do with some water. Could I trouble you..."
"Of course," said the man, closing the lid of the laptop and getting up. "Come this way."
"What's your name, by the way?" she said, grabbing her bag and following him. He stopped and looked at her, his eyes calculating.
"You don't...KNOW me--"
"And I don't know you," she interrupted. "I've heard that phrase somewhere."
"If it's okay with you... I'd rather not say," he said quietly.
"Hmmm... Okay," mused Shauna. "Fine... fine... I'll call you... the writer with no name," she grinned, again watching his face as he smiled slowly.
"SIR, will do," he said, growing suddenly stern. Shauna's brow furrowed. Then he laughed, a deep, low chuckle from the belly.
"We'll think of something," he smiled. "I have my reasons for not telling you who I am. I'm somewhat famous; that's all you need to know."
"To me, you're just some guy who likes yelling at his computer. That works for me," Shauna smiled. "You were gonna get me some water?"
"Ah, yes. Let's go ask my wife. Would you like ice?"
"Sure," said Shauna Tay, pulling her knapsack over one shoulder, as they headed for the front door of the house. "Mind if I fill my water bottle?"
"Sure," said the man, matching her tone and glancing briefly past her at her ponytail. He motioned toward the house. "What do you think of it?"
"Pretty damn cool. You've lived here a while, I take it?"
"One of the first residents in this subdivision. It's a corner lot so there's more room than most places 'round here."
"I'LL say," said Shauna. "Looks like you have your own forest back there."
"Yes," he sounded pleased. "I put it in when I first moved here. Have a friend--a gardener--who tends it for me. I'm godfather to his two kids--they're both in college now. One of them--the boy--wants to be a writer. He's down in Arizona right now. We talk by email. Smart kid... You got any?--kids, I mean."
"Nah. Never married. Moved around a lot. I guess I scare a lot of guys."
"I bet you do," he laughed heartily. "Wait here. I'll get Marie." He disappeared into the house for a moment and returned with a tall, dark-skinned woman with deep almond eyes and a quiet expression. She bore a tray with two glasses, and a pitcher of ice water. He held open the door for her, watching her closely as she walked out past Shauna Tay and set the tray on another wooden table. She turned and stared politely at Shauna.
"Hello, I'm Marie. You helped my husband with the computer, did you? Thanks. He seems to be getting quite attached to it." She stared, bemused, at the man.
Shauna looked at her.
"My god, you're MY age."
"And your point is?..."
"This guy's old enough to be your--"
"...husband. Is there a problem?"
Shauna stood thoughtfully for a moment; then she brightened.
"Hm... ACTUALLY... No," she laughed. "How long you been together?"
"Twenty years. I met him at a lecture while I was in Med school, in Spain."
"Coool."
"Help yourself to the water, Shauna Tay," said the man, grabbing and filling a glass for himself.
"Nice to meet you," said Marie. She leaned close to the man for a moment while he sipped his water, and placed her hand gently against the back of his neck. His eyes moved to her; and he shifted his drink to his right hand and slipped his arm smoothly around her waist. "Sorry, but I've got to get back to something I was doing. Why don't you show Shauna Tay around?" she said to him. "Do you like gardens, Shauna Tay? We have flowers AND vegetables. And the 'forest'," she grinned, her tone growing bemused. The man nudged her playfully with his hip and watched as she moved to the front door, opened it and went back inside.
"Fill your water bottle, Shauna, and I'll take you for a tour of the gardens. I think you'll find this interesting," he said. Then he drained his glass and put it back on the tray.
"Ready?" he said.
"Sure," Shauna said. "Let's go."
+++
Read this far? Is it worth you tossing a few bucks in the KICK kitty? I hope so. That's why I'm doing it.
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As I believe William Blake wrote, "The vision of Christ that thou dost see is my vision's greatest enemy." Replace Christ with "God" and I think you pretty much sum up what's going on in the world right now.
I am an atheist but I grew up in Catholic schools and in a nominally Catholic family. I understand that religion can be used as a tool for good in the hands of good people.
Sadly, it seems to be able to provide far more leverage to promote evil in the hands of evil people.
And it doesn't help one tiny bit when Dubyah calls our response to the jihad a "crusade" against terrorism. Nice choice of words, big guy. *sigh*
Pardon my first post on this subject being so trivial but I've been doing my sharing elsewhere (my good friend's cousin was one of the passengers on the plane that hit the Pentagon).
But did anyone else read the first issue of Fury released just the day after (published way before, of course) the attack? The story is mostly about Nick Fury feeling like a discarded soldier of a bygone era.
The last page features him staring out at the New York skyline and saying "Christ Almighty... I want another war."
Creepy. Way creepy.
Firstly, to Harlan and mine odder landsmann: L'shana tovah! This is the wonder of the New Year--it's New Year's whether you're a believer or not. Besides, we don't gotta fast until Yom Kippur.
(Hey, I've been addressing Bat Mitzvah invitations all weekend. I'm feeling religious.)
That said, it's worth remembering that every faith--including atheism--has its fanatics and slaughterers, people who regard themselves as fools for God, but who are truly only fools. Muslims, sure, but also Jews, Christians, and other flavors of True Believer. My great-uncle, Rav Kook, first chief rabbi of Palestine (there wasn't an Israel in those days) became known as a great progressive for (get this) teaching that even Reform Jews and socialist kibbutzniks could be encouraged to move to the Holy Land. Ah, but his son, my cousin, taught the doctrine that no compromise is permissible on the settlements, a doctrine that eventually led to the assassination of an Israel PM who sought peace. And both of them drew their conclusions from their certainty that the time of the messiah was at hand.
That's how close progressivism and irrationalism dwell, folks: from the same beliefs spring love and hatred in equal measure. I tell ya, it's depressing.
--alex
Harlan:AAAAYYYYY---MEN!
(and AAAAYYYY womin, too! Take THAT Jerry Fallwell. Preacher Ellison seems to get it while you'd rather blame feminists, gays, and the ACLU).
L'shana tova!
Harlan~ Pardon me whilst I stifle my own chuckle. The bronx cheer was meant firmly tongue-in-cheek and I respect your wishes to not believe as I expect to have my right to believe respected. I have many friends of many faiths, I myself have been a student of many faiths, and frankly Atheism just doesn't work for me. I don't want to argue religion with anyone, on the grounds that my beliefs are my own and I'm not about to expect anyone else to share in my own twisted version of reality.
Oh, and did you catch the fact that I'm a modern eclectic Wiccan? My current realm of study/veneration has an emphasis on the Kemet (that'd be the ancient Egyptian pantheon in its vast and varied colors), with a leaning towards older and more dreamlike beliefs of the ancient Sumerians, Babylonians and Minoans, as minute as our archeological/anthropological evidence has revealed them to us. I have also at certain times studied Buddhism, Taoism, Discordianism (hence the bronx cheer), Islam (including the Sufi mystical traditions), and Hinduism. I have read everything from Joseph Campbell to Margaret Mead. I owe a lot of my current world view to the likes of Marion Zimmer Bradley and of all people, you (Yeah - Deathbird Stories warped my little mind at an impressionable age).
So please don't try to fathom the length, depth and breadth of my limited understanding from just one post.
Respectfully and warmly yours,
L.
By the way: As another hue of the "spectrum," let me point out that this week is Rosh Hashonah, the Jewish New Year. Not to snap another rubber band at Lynn, but I should just casually mention that on OUR calendar, we are entering year 5762, so if I sorta snicker at the mere measly miserable 2001 of YOUR pale and colorless calendar, spectrumly speaking, kiddo, even a godless Atheist infidel heretic like woebegone me suggests that you goyim are mere parvenus in the "my God has bigger balls than your God" tally-up.
Did I mention that I ran down three Jews for Jesus at Disneyland last month?
And they say Political Correctness has made it a duller world. Pshaw!
Beatifically, yr. pal, the Archangel Harlan.
BTW, I mean:
"I'll say this much, the absence of classified safeguards on those planes can't remain as it is."
Not:
"...the absence of classified safeguards on those planes can't remain as they are."
Oh, incidentally . . .
BWAH-hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!
Jim Davis, 13 September posting. Advice to AOL's attorneys, Latham&Watkins, monitoring this site to dredge up twistable
information:
"So go wear a pork suit to a barbeque."
BWAH-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!! Oh, I pee. Oh, I squeal.
To die for. Brilliance lives. Davis rocks, Davis Rules. BWAHhaha.
-he
Oh, incidentally . . .
BWAH-hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!
Jim Davis, 13 September posting. Advice to AOL's attorneys, Latham&Watkins, monitoring this site to dredge up twistable
information:
"So go wear a pork suit to a barbeque."
BWAH-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!! Oh, I pee. Oh, I squeal.
To die for. Brilliance lives. Davis rocks, Davis Rules. BWAHhaha.
-he
Um, yeah, sorry 'bout that. That last post, of course, was to you, DTS.
In that override concept only the computer has control; it's wrested from everyone onboard. It reminds me of the automatic guidance concepts they have on the boards for cars in the future, wherein you punch a destination into the computer and it will take you there automatically (of course, in that scenario you have the option to override). As that article pointed out it eliminates the motivation of the hijacker. Main problem is it will take a while to install those systems and for would-be hijackers around the world to understand they exist; another problem the engineer might want to consider, as that is a computerized technology it is always possible another country could devise a chip or electronic system that might cancel or scramble the override, thereby allowing the hijackers to do their fine job. Might be back to the gas for me. I'll say this much, the absence of classified safeguards on those planes can't remain as they are. Try an angle like this: if you had an engineering background and someone came to you with an irresistable monetary offer to hack out or simply imagine several possible concepts for safeguards on the planes, what ideas do you think you could come up with? Think of different scenarios given the limitations on the plane and you're under pressure to save as many lives as you can. No cop-outs like, "I don't think any changes should be made" are allowed. If you say that you'll be fired as an engineer.
Lynn, dear heart:
Here's my problem with well-intentioned people "who accept the existence of God" and it is inherent in the words you, yourself, just used in your post:
You refer to your family as "ranging from one end of the spectrum to the other" by registering as "Catholic to Baptist."
Yeah, that's a spectrum if you eliminate everything from the
ultraviolet to the infrared. The spectrum of people standing behind those windows is a lot more flavorful than variations on Christianity, kiddo.
And we Atheists hear your Bronx Cheer in all its raspberry rudeness, and we expand on your mother's excellent metaphor by suggesting that though you may think WE have our blinds pulled so we cannot see out the window to God through that wall...that we need no window, blinds, or opprobrium from Those Who Believe in the Supernatural BECAUSE, for us, no wall exists. We see the untrammeled universe as it is, whole, complete, magnificent in its simple existence; and we perceive the godliness of the perfected human spirit in that resonant totality.
The arrogance you display, my dear, was obvious to me, though I don't think you knew you were pulling your own covers.
Try not to argue with a forensic debater like me; as we both know, the devil cites scripture to his own advantage.
In prickly demeanor, I remain, your godless pal, Harlan.
I second Peg's motion.
Differentiation is mandatory.
Faith is one thing. Organized superimposed pre-continua of social anarchies preying on the need for faith in a constituency that cannot seem to grasp that it is responsible for its own destiny--the painful concept that when we are at our noblest, kindest, most creative, WE are God--is quite another. I'm not talking about individual Jews, Muslims, Christians of various sects, Catholics, Buddhists, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, or even Scientologists. Nor agnostics. Nor Atheists. I'm talking about the headless snakes that are ALL Organized Authoritarian Religions, never-born, born-again, semi-hemi-demi-born or any
alliterative variation thereof.
I hasten to reassure Peg that a slavish agreement with my views, even partway across the board, is nonexistant here. This is a maverick bunch. (Yes, they perceive that there are topics on which I hold bully-pulpit positions; but my limited Webderland experience has manifested very little evidence to suggest that MY slant on things deters anyone ELSE posting hereabouts from pointing out that I'm frquently an error-festooned bonehead who suffers with the ague of muddy ratiocination.)
As we used to say when I was a kid--although it was in common use when I WAS a kid, I almost never hear this wonderful aphorism any more--"You go to your church, and I'll go to mine
...but we'll walk along together."
Nonetheless, though the tone of civility may occasionally strain in matters of "belief" and theology in these environs--this is, Peg, clearly, a congeries of intellectually curious and skeptical people of above-the-line smarts--it is certainly worth considering that the events of September 11th are in large measure the outgrowth of religious fervor. While it is no huge revelation to say that ALL religions are inevitably twisted, bent, reinterpreted to the political ends of the groups espousing
those doctrines, it is also true that the human condition includes a nasty tendency to engage in, and to excuse, even to ennoble, the most bestial behavior in the name of "God is on our side"; it's the Holy War, the Crusade, the Good of the Church
that gets the blood pumping and the flying bombs airborne.
I see very little difference, save in size of the depredation, between the Fundamentalist Mentality that stove in the World Trade Towers, that puree'd perhaps thousands,and the Righteous Religiosity of the dementedly "God-empowered" skinhead monsters who beat to death an innocent gay student in the Midwest.
They are larva of the same evil insect.
Peg, you choose to believe in God, I choose not to. Neither, both, or one of us is certainly in the bullseye on that. I may not like that Right Wing Religious Factions stray from their proper endeavors, the exaltation of the Almighty, in their demented and arrogant efforts to make everyone believe as they do
...but that has nothing to do with you, or me, or us gathered here.
Fret not. Rest easy. Anyone gives you a hard time, just let me know.
I'll zap 'em in the spleen with a bolt of holy lightning.
Righteously, yr. pal, Rev. Hosannah J. Ellison.
(Can I have an AAAAAAAAAAA-meyun!!!)
Eartha Kitt, eh? I did not know that. There are a LOT of things I do not know. I am working on that.
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3928
Heather
child of Ellison
Help Harlan KICK Internet Piracy
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Peg, my friend, if I have in any way offended you, please accept my humble apology. I do indeed separate the fundamentalists from the rest. My significant other is a devout Christian. I myself accept the teachings of Christ as words of timeless wisdom. My family ranges from one end of the spectrum to the other (Catholic to Baptist), and they accept me as I am, knowing that I am a good person regards of the dogma I follow.
My mother gave me a wonderful metaphor when I was very young, and one I may have surprised her with when I used it to combat her own fears about my beliefs. She taught me that there is a thing called God out there, and between God and the people is a massive wall with thousands upon thousands of windows in it. Every soul stands at a different window and has a slightly altered perspective of the *same God*. It doesn't matter how we look at it, or what we call it, it's still the *same God*.
Except for all you athiest types who apparently have the window shades drawn. {Insert Bronx cheer here}.
I remain yours in friendship,
L.
Could I ask a favor of those participating on the board? Please don't condemn christians and/or the christian faith because because of televangelists or religious activists.
When I first started posting here I was nervous - I knew Harlan's position on any religion, esp. christianity, from his writings, and figured it wouldn't be unreasonable for those who admired his writings to share his views. I thought I might just be heckled off the board once I revealed I was a born-again christian. But over time I learned this group could accept people for who they were without always agreeing with their views. If anyone took distate at my personal choices, they kept it to themselves, and I appreciated that and reciprocated (I didn't join the board to evangelize after all).
Lately, though, it seems more and more posts, with a few exceptions, have generalized christians into the right-wing religious activist groups and condemned them alongside. I thought maybe I was being too sensitive, so I went and re-read several of the posts just to be sure. Maybe I'm just reading them the wrong way? If so, my apologies.
I ask this favor because it seems to be un/subconcious in nature. The folks here are so thoughtful and concerned, but it's almost as if this is a blind spot - if christianity is mentioned it's in a position of blame, and the many kind, supportive, caring acts of the christian community forgotten. In contrast, and more in line with what I have come to expect here, there's been few, if any, derogatory comments about muslims or the Islamic faith, despite the acts of the last few days - because this crowd is sensible enough to differentiate fanatics from the faith, and the beliefs.
Thanks for listening,
Peg
Remember, being a jerk is non-discriminatory - anyone can join.
(my own line probably heard similar somewhere before.... maybe George Carlin?)
Alex: I probably should have selected better words when describing myself. I am a US born citizen (however born overseas) of Lebanese roots. I did chime in on the vegetarian discussion (having been a veget. since '85). Much Lebanese cuisine is vegetarian or could be suited to it. Tabouli, hummus, babaganoush, stuffed eggplant/peppers (all veget. of course) are all favorites of mine. As to your question of Tyre/Sidon. I do not identify with those towns. I identify with my ancestral towns of Zabogah, Zahle, & Kinshara. I believe most Lebanese identify with their birth towns--when one mentions they're birth town to another Lebanese, they tend to know of the family. My ancestral towns are po-dunk villages in Lebanon--though giants of my family have risen from these humble beginnings (as is the case with many world leaders-e.g. Jimmy Carter from Plains). Several of my Uncles (Great, & Great-Great-lineage wise) were also leaders in their own way: one became the Archbishop of Baalbek and hobnobed with the Pope and other world leaders; another wrote Constitutional Law books in Brazil which are still in use in their law schools; one participated at the San Francisco Conference in 1945 along with Stettinius, Molotov et al, in forming the UN Charter (his diary of the time makes great reading)--he was also the first Lebanese Street Commissioner in Boston in the mid-30's; and my other relative who was quite learned, worked with both the Turkish & English governments, and wrote some 150 books. They all came from a tiny village of some 400 people, where people mainly grew figs, grain and cucumbers. Amazing to me.
ROB: I'll have to go and search for the story when time permits,
but the one you caught on the tube isn't the one I'm thinking of. This incident, which took place not too long ago, resulted in the plane going down and everyone dying. The pilot didn't have a weapon. He merely took the plane off autopilot and proceeded to push it into a steep dive. His rantings were picked up (and recorded) by air traffic controllers in the area. And since it went down near our coastline, American investigators were asked for help (until the y concluded that the pilot had committed suicide, and that there were no mechanical problems that caused the sudden dive of this commerical airliner. And the reason I brought it up is that I believe NO ONE should have the sort of control you were thinking of. Yes, the captain of a ship or an airliner is the ultimate power in many ways (and rightly so); but he or she is still human. And, therefore, still capable of human foibles and failings. I'm not sure if there really is any solution (design-wise or weapon-wise) to an incursion by terrorists of an airliner. Putting Air Marshalls back on the planes will help quite a bit. But even then, when a crazed fanatic who believes he (or she) is doing something that is noble and will send him or her onto a better life (filled with sexual bounty or booty, no less), the presence of an armed Air Marshall wont deter the terrorist. It'll just make for a different, endgame, scenario. I think the real solution lies elsewhere. In the way we (we meaining the world) educate and indoctinrate our children (be it religious or political indoctrination). Then again, maybe I don't have a clue.
An auto-pilot override for the passenger plane is a very good idea; hopefully the technology is developed enough at this stage. I wouldn't want to wait long to implement those changes in the planes.
http://www.freesklyarov.org/
Heather
child of Ellison
Title: Join Harlan Ellison in the struggle for Word Domination
Join Harlan's struggle for WORD DOMINATION.
Give writers the right to write (without fear of nonrecompense).
Heather
Give a shit.
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Rob/DTS;
You guys might be interested in this idea to take away control of the plane from both hijackers and pilots. The article can be found here:
http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2812283,00.html
-Andrew
Having just casually scrolled through earlier posts, I need to submit a spelling/grammar correction to duck embarrassment in a response to David. This one slipped by me because I was focused on the issue, not the text. I mean: "The journalist of Frontline had indisputable evidence of this because of a hidden camera he was walking around with".
Shifting the subject:
PBS ran a film I, to my shock, had never even heard of. It was called 'Dark of the Sun'. Laced with metaphors about war, vengeance and madness, it starred Rod Taylor and Jim Brown. I came in on it late but it was damn interesting (ahead of its time on the subject of race) and accented with style. Its subtext was quite relevant to the state of affairs.
Taylor was actually a damn good actor; thick on the machismo mayhap (what do you expect from an Ausie?), but well-balanced with intelligence and sensitivity. When he emotes you believe him. He was turning out a good-to-excellent filmography throughout the 60's. I saw much of his work in the late 70's and early 80's on tv. ('36 Hours' was another I'd seen only recently).
DTS
I can't believe the timing of your recount; I just saw that story on the tube an hour ago. I didn't know about it prior. Of course that pilot was using hand weapons and that's a lot different from making people outside a vacuum-tight cabin go to sleep for a while. It was his co-pilots who stopped him so it would have happened either way. However plausible or inplausible or looney or believable the options we imagine seem I figure you know what I'm getting at.
DTS
I can't believe the timing of your recount; I just saw that story on the tube about an hour ago. Of course he was using hand weapons and that's a lot different from making people outside the cabin fall asleep for a while. It was his co-pilots who stopped him and that would've happened either way. However feasible or infeasible or looney or believable options we imagine might be I figure you understand what I'm getting at.
Rob: One last note and then I'll step aside to let the aeronautics experts weigh-in. That brief mention I made of an "Egyptian" pilot committing suicide wasn't in reference to the terrorists -- not sure if you understood that -- I was thinking of an incident which happened earlier this year or late last year. (I can't remember the nationality of the pilot). He was a highly trained pilot (the kind you mentioned a couple of posts back) but he had some bad stuff going on in his personal life. The tapes recorded his prayers as the plane went into a sudden dive...and the sound of his copilot, who had left the cabin for few mintues, asking him what was going on, etc. Experts from our country, assisting in the investigations, concluded that he had decided to commit suicide, taking all of his passengers and crewmembers with him. The officials from the airline, naturally, disagreed (thus avoiding any liability in the lawsuits to come).
Hi, Lynn. I hope you're starting to feel a little better, as well as can be expected at this time.
Hey, an expert's opinion on conditions in the cabin and the options available for trained airline pilots would be fascinating. I was just ruminating; I know too little about the subject. I do believe a radical concept needs to be introduced; conventional police tactics in the plane can't work very well. In the back of my mind I DID consider varied reactions to knock-out gas with every person (including myself). But like I was trying to say, in the last extremity of survival a numbers game is what you're left with; that is the basis my thoughts were following. The "gas ovens" aside, I'm sure a combination of classified high-tech defensive systems and procedures are in order. If any of you aeronautics experts roll through here (and I did notice NASA and JPL people at Harlan's booksigning at Pinks) maybe you can tell us about it.
I had a bad moment last night,when I was watching "28 Days" (a decent movie, well worth the renting (if only to see a movie where Steve Buscemi is the normal one)), and at the end of the movie, Sandra Bullock's character is returning to New York at sunset. Yep, a skyline shot. Teared me up.
Hi, David
I agree with several points you just made about integrity existing on both sides of the philosophical picket fence. I’ve known both good people and contemptible whether religious or atheist. I will stress, however, interestingly, of those I’ve known in the course of my life who were atheists - and this is strictly within my own experience - they tended to be more altruistic, humane and ethical than those more interested in spreading the word of their god and their interpretation of the Bible.
But I tend to differ with your depiction of religion as a tool rather than the cause of storms as we’re swept into now. Historically, religion has been a direct driving force behind massive killing scythes, generally in the name of purification or proselytizing. It has invariably been the ingrained mind-set that would raise the sword. And we have variations of religious intolerance. A political faith can display the same symptoms of blind unquestioning fanaticism (like Nazism, the kamikaze, etc.). Religion, or the like, is generally the engine not the tool.
Now, at times religion HAS been used as an ostensible cause the way you were defining it (and perhaps this latter condition is what you had in mind) - for the conscienceless convenience of a goal. Manifest Destiny in the U.S. was an example. And of a matter of fact the self-righteous Taliban are as decadent a hypocrisy I’ve seen in more than 100 years. Frontline ran a piece exposing the nature of their reign in Afghanistan: after destroying anything they conceived as blasphemous, a manifestation of the material world and physical temptation, we learn they’ve been pirating expensive goods and merchandise - from stereos to Nike shoes - and keeping it behind walls for their own fun and use. THIS after killing anyone they so much as suspect of such material indulgence. The journalist of Frontline had unquestioning proof of this because of a hidden camera he was walking around with. He’d have been executed if they’d caught him with it. This is a condition that reinforces my suspicion about those Fundamentalists in general: they’re not at war with us because of God; they want what we have. In essence, they're jealous. Rather than building a prosperity of their own they'd prefer to wallow in hate and bigotry against those who have what they don't. Let’s say they subdued us all; they become the only ones to walk the earth. I would wager anything that they would become our material surrogates - having the fun with computers and merchandise so much of the West has now. Their pretense is God; their underlying hate is that "we have it" and "they don’t". They are driven by the most basic of human impulses: they are jealous. And though I’m certain they honestly believe in notions of the after-life, and that anyone who doesn’t share there views is evil, I am equally certain that they’d gorge themselves on the same hog fat we do. No matter how much any religion claims to be true to itself, most human beings exhibit degrees of hypocrisy. That is what makes any order so abhorrent when it imposes self-righteous holy decrees on others. (Speaking of which, I’m getting increasingly uneasy about the degree it’s taking now in THIS country; it’s becoming more like "our myth" versus "their myth". A lot of shallowness and close-mindedness to other points of view often result when this happens).
Jim Davis
Thanks for telling me about that article. That was interesting: a manual drawn up in times too naïve to consider all possible scenarios. Basically airline pilots should play the role of law enforcers as well. As it is, the manual limits them too much to one option.
Frank
You’re right about that business of our lovely CIA funding the Taliban during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan; it is among the mistakes we’re paying the price for now. The U.S. has a chain of this "support the better of two evils" bargaining that goes back a long way and has almost invariably turned on us later. I would say this has been the biggest price we’ve EVER paid. I also hope the media stresses this problem over time along with the nature of our corporate operations overseas in the past. It is the only way to create building blocks to a better understanding of how we need to work with other cultures in the future after we’ve wrapped it with "WWIII"; we HAVE to be willing to acknowledge our own errors to have a fairer, safer world. Every nation on the globe walks with stained underwear. It’s time to do the laundry.
Lynn:
Regarding your recent comments to Frank:
**YOU** rock, my dear lady.
("No, Jim. YOU rock." "No, Lynn. You rock it the MOST."...)
One of the FEW possible upsides to this recent tragedy (as if something like the murder of 5,000 people CAN have an upside) is that, with any luck, the psychic industry will be FINISHED. How can you claim to have predictive powers, and utterly fail to foresee Tuesday's events? Does Sylvia Browne have a good answer for that? I don't think so...
Jim
Amy~ Hugs, sister. That which does not kill us can only make us stronger. You and yours are in our thoughts and prayers.
Frank~ re: your disgust at our nationalistic fervor in recent days (Stores sold out of flags, people lining the streets at 7pm PDT yesterday with candles and flags in hands, thousands of volunteers turned away at the WTC clean up effort because they are not needed). In light of the observations I've made over the past week (that I've seen more red, white & blue around than in the past 5 years worth of Independence Days, Veteran's Days, Memorial Days), respectfully I say -- FUCK YOU.
Rob~ The problems associated with tranq'ing an entire cabin full of people are legion, the first and foremost being you don't know how each body will react to a drug and secondly, gas masks are cheap. If you're interested in reading a professional's look at flight cabin security, my SO is a law enforcement trainer and a certified protection specialist who has been writing copious volumes over the past few days, plumbing the depths of this questions six ways from sunday. I'm sure he would love to share his views with intelligent people with open minds.
Joseph~ I agree with your observations about modern Wicca 110%. It is a very organic, non-linear way of thinking. And pagans by their very nature are contrary to organized anything, much less getting together to put forth a 'media image' that the American public can 'relate' to. (Ugh - it turns my stomach to use buzz words like that.) I can't think of a week that has gone by in the past twelve years of my life that I haven't met an uneducated individual with strong emotions about paganism. All I have to offer them is their impression of myself as a professional, educated, tax-paying citizen who does not wear crystals, reek of patchouli, or kill babies and small furry creatures for kicks. And considering that the last outright insult I had was just a few weeks ago (you think Rob's soda incident was distasteful), I know I have to keep presenting this face, knowing that these people will react to the next pagan they meet with the impression of the *last* one they met firmly in their mind.
Cookie~ Can I just say that you absolutely *rock*, sister? I wish I had more people like you in my face-to-face life. (I actually have a question for you - I'm doing a company talent show at the end of October, and I'd like to add a verse to Kansas' Dust In The Wind in commemoration of the event. I'm sure as the days grow closer, my head will clear some and I can focus on it, but I would really like your input as a professional, if you're interested.)
And as for the status-oh-so-not-quo, I was doing fine this morning until I turned on the television and heard the sweet and sorrowful voice belting "And He Will Raise You Up" for NYFD Chaplain Mychal Judge's funeral service. Lordamercy, if it wasn't the same woman who sung at my uncle's funeral last September, and at his son's funeral (my first and youngest cousin) a year prior to that. It seems a never ending ribbon, weaving through my life in the strangest ways.
Love to all my friends,
L.
Skellington Scribe~ You'll be happy to know that Falwell and Robertson reportedly had a tenuous but serious security moment when their own studio audience rebelled at Falwell's words.
Let him hang himself with his own words.
L.
Hmm...a bit of a not-so-non-sequitor.
Went back to the dubious Ellison commentator I was gonna mention in relation to my previous post (but didn't for brevity) and found this editorial for September (I'm sure he won't mind the plug as I saw him on the KICK forum months ago):
http://www.gothic.net/content.php?page=http://www.gothic.net/archives/editorial/editor901.html
Gonna quote a part of it below, for your brainpan, David(s):
>>I really don't know how we'll top what we are doing this year, though. We're still going to have the same great fiction by unpublished authors for free, but for a subscription you can get fiction by noted names in the horror field. This is why we ask you to trust us—you may not have heard of the people we pick for this. You may have heard of Poppy Z. Brite (who will be contributing) but you might not have heard of Richard Matheson (who is also contributing). If you're only just getting into horror literature, you're going to have to take our word on it—Poppy's cool, but Mr. Matheson is right down there with absolute zero fucking degrees Kelvin when it comes to spooky stories.
>>We're going to try to get you some names you'll recognize, though. We are also up for suggestions—feel free to ask us to get fiction from any author. If you're paying us, it's your right to ask. Depending on how many people sign up, your wish may be granted.
from -- Letter from the Editor: September, 2001
by Darren Mckeeman at gothic.net
Although getting anymore pissed off cannot be good for ones health I post this anyway. Ir is is just another example of how disgusting, wretched and infuriatingly ignorant some people can be:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html
They’ve just spat onto the mass grave of the innocents who were murdered and they expect it to shine. The demon-worshipping zealots.
Matt
David Loftus: (most noble scholar--no I ain't bein' smart, boyo; and don't pull out your 'cavilling' dictionary on me--I didn't even know what that word meant til last night--I'm not in your ballpark and never WILL be, K? I'm just the idea gopher here.)
In brief, my response would be: If you want something bad enough, you can FIND a way to make it happen, no? Harlan Ellison is a walking sandwichboard for this concept, true?
You said:
>>Your idea of a bunch of us participating in a sort of subscription Ellison column is intriguing, Heather; get us more Ellison material as well as help to fund KICK.
You also said:
(which reminds me of a phrase from a "Mind Fields" story that the critic of the artist used--sorry can't remember the title. I think it started with: "Unfortunately,")
>>I see a couple of potential drawbacks:
....First comment! Let's try something new here and look for the positive extrapolations, hmm? I'm not here to argue why something WON'T work; I'm here to figure out why something WILL. I could find reasons as to why I don't get out of bed every morning too, honeychile, but that isn't gonna help me do what I need to do with my life, dig?
With respect, dearest, sweetest David -- as I know you are the STAUNCHEST OF STAUNCH of Ellison's supporters. But I don't want to turn every idea I throw out into a debate with the 'on-autopilot, let's-start-with-why-it-won't-work' default, okay?
You said:
>>1) Would we be able to put together enough people to afford his rates, especially since we've been able to get cut-rate, conversational Ellison for free, up to now?
What I was thinking was this (and please forgive the lack of debate technique as I ain't a debator)
Observation one: mucho people popped up last month to talk to Harlan. Mucho people dissipated when he disappeared (basically; let's not split hairs). People "appear" when Harlan is at the helm, dig?
If right this minute, what Harlan and his KICK campaign NEEDS are eyeballs attached to their wallets -- even just to show up, read his comments on quahogs, pop five bucks in the KICK kitty and go back to where they were and what they were doing; we got what we needed. Even if they show up once -- look at all those "I met/admire/was changed by reading Ellison" stories in Rick's comments section -- that's all we may be looking for.
The concept of a short or long term "subscription" (maybe create a new word for this) is merely to make the same devotees of Ellison who came here BEFORE, (or like-minded creators who worry about this piracy/creators's rights issue) aware that he is here now and not doing this to pad his pad but build awareness of the creator's rights issue. Recall the Stephen King attempts at a kind of "pay for play" deal here. (and you KNOW Stevo don't need the dinero; that was an experiment, pure and simple) Harlan -- in the broadest of senses -- gets "paid" his "fee" based on the number of "subscribers" -- he's not giving Rick a quota for his performance each month as the money GOES to Ellison/KICK/bloody lawyer fees.
Oh, I'm sure I didn't dot an "i" somewhere here. Do you see where I'm heading with this? It's not about Harlan getting 'paid' it's about Harlan getting KICK 'paid.'
>>2) I suspect any really good writing that Ellison came up with, he'd want to sell to a "legitimate" market where people who are not fans and automatic consumers of his work would be more likely to see it.
And I'm hoping -- with more money in the KICK kitty and less pressure on Ellison's mind about this whole lawsuit situation, he'll find the wherewithal to WRITE for those markets as well. All I'm saying is, "why do it over there, when the light is so much BETTER over here?"
Incomplete thought. Shoot me. I'm dubious at to the eyeballs on this post and don't plan to sweat explanations too much. Thanks for the reply, David.
Heather
Help Feed Harlan's Kitty.
Help Harlan Ellison KICK Internet Piracy
http://www.harlanellison.com/kick
As if Tuesday's events weren't demorilizing enough, we Floridians had to deal with tropical storm Gabrielle careening across the state on Friday. I'm lucky enough to live in a relatively elevated area, so flooding was minimal, though electrical power was interrupted a few times. The worse part was being cooped up in my house--I really wanted to participate in one of the candlelight vigils scheduled for the evening. I settled for digging out my battered red Yamaha acoustic guitar, and singing Dylan songs at maximum volume. "Tangled Up in Blue" and "Blind Willie McTell" seemed tailor-made for how I was feeling.
Rob: I read an article which detailed how American Airlines pilots were trained NOT to fight with hijackers. Apparently, the American flight manual has not been revised since the '70s, when hijackers were more prone to use jets as transportation than as weapons of terrorism. "Attempt to establish a rapport with the hijackers," it reads. "Do not negotiate with the hijackers--allow trained negotiaters to do this. Never attempt to overpower a hijacker." Now, I'm not saying that if the manuals had emphasized a more adversarial approach Tuesday's events wouldn't have happened, but it seems obvious that the airlines had little or no foresight regarding the lethal potential of their passenger jets. I hope that the pilots' manuals are being revised as I write this.
Cookie: You did great, kiddo. Music is one of the few things that have kept me from going totally berserk this past week, so I KNOW that you eased the pain of everyone in that room. You sound like a helluva person.
Dima: I just want you to know how much I appreciate your kind thoughts. Please feel free to post here as much as you like; it's VITAL that Americans know that many, many Arab citizens share their grief and sadness at this time. I'm really afraid that the misguided backlash at Arab and Muslim-Americans will reach horrific proportions, so any kind and sane words from the Middle East are more than welcome.
Amy: I can't really think of anything I could write that wouldn't seem banal or clumsy, so I'll just wish you my best, and hope that things look up for you.
One of the more disquieting things about this week's attack is the absolute absence of ANY claim of responsibility by any terrorist group in the world media. After all, isn't it the objective of acts like this to further a specific political ideology? So why not make it perfectly clear WHY the WTC and Pentagon were targeted? The most ominous answer is that the masterminds behind this KNOW that the most maddening thing they can do is remain silent. Don't give the terror a name or shape. Let the Americans roil in their own anxiety and impotence.
How truly, truly insidious.
I really fear for where this country is heading. The drumbeats of war are getting louder and louder, and I wonder how or when they will stop. Americans have been living in, as Henry Miller put it, an "air-conditioned nightmare" for so long that I doubt that they realize just how bad things are going to get. If anyone thinks that there won't be more terrorist assaults on American landmarks, then he/she is living in a dream world. This is how the world operates, and we were cushioned against it for too long. The Fenris Wolf has sniffed out where we live, and I suspect that our present horror may be eclipsed by much, much worse.
Make no mistake: I want the people who planned, bankrolled, and encouraged these atrocities to pay with their lives. I just question whether full-scale military operations will do little more than spawn untold future generations of bin Ladens. Terrorism is a hydra, and our government thinks that cutting off all its heads will solve the problem. We need to address the root causes of the Middle East's hatred of America, but I don't see anyone in our government who is willing to do that. Bomb first, ask why later.
It is also clear that our military will kill innocent people, and we will justify it with the odious phrase, "collateral damage". That won't help me to sleep at night.
"You need to break some eggs to make some omelets", some say.
Tell that to the eggs.
Jim
Amy, dear, sweet one:
Read the micropiece I wrote, (and Harlan's cautionary introduction that led up to it) and that phrase, in context. Notice what I said--also--on the second line.
Heather
child of Ellison
Help Harlan KICK Internet Piracy
http://www.harlanellison.com/kick
All the flag waving and Nationalist hubbub is getting a bit on the fanatical side. Glad to see this room is on a more even keel. If the media doesn't stop showing the crash from every angle, like snuff porn, then I'm gonna puke. Also notice that a lot of the so called, "Terrorism Experts" are ex war crimes apologists themselves.
Let's not forget that our lovely CIA funded the Taliban during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. We have a stake in this that the media refused to acknowledge. Our Arab hatred has brought this on also. I have no idea what can be done to quell such insane ferver. We need a radical change but time is running out! It is a shame-truly.
http://google.yahoo.com/bin/query?h=u&g=0&t&n=10&p=%2bHarlan+%2bEllison+%22Internet+piracy%22&hc=0&hs=0
DTS
Ah. We all need to get a little gassed once in a while.
Just remember, and this is really what I was getting at, in the last extremity like a suicide hijacking, options in weaponry are limited because of the fuselage. And your concern about a specially trained pilot "having had a bad day" reminds me of when some Republicans argued doubt about President Clinton's command abilities because of his flings, that he might just lose it and jump for the button. I might suggest arming the stewardesses instead of the pilots but then you might be concerned about their erratic "female" moods (don't worry, I'm just joking). And I think fascism a policy infringing on a society not procedures imposed on us on a plane. Once we're onboard our safety is the pilots' responsibility. Armed defense doesn't mean we're surrendering our freedoms.
At any rate, pilots have to be equipped better in SOME way to handle a hijacking. As it is they have no defenses at all. And passengers have even fewer.
Christ. The world is testing my strength. My mother-in-law (loved VERY much by all who know her) is undergoing chemo for her recently diagnosed breast cancer and it's making her terribly sick. I still haven't heard from (about, hell, ANYTHING) several friends who were likely to be at "ground zero" in NYC. And thursday night we had to rush my father-in-law to the emergency room with a pulse rate of somewhere around 28. Lost him a few times during the night, got him back, had to install a temp pacemaker somewhere around 3 a.m. and a REAL one by 8:30. Now he's physically okay, but his mind is fragile to the point that he does not always recognize his son (my husband), who he last referred to as 'who the fuck was that?'
I sort of pride myself on being one of those tough-as-nails chicks who is a rock during a crisis, but I need a goddamned break here. So I'm venting. Apologies.
And Heather--even said in the most loving way, Harlan Ellison is certainly no asshole. He's a mensch.
amy
And this is why I love this board so: Two people say, "I'm Lebanese," and it's greeted with a cheer for our diversity. In light of recent events and endemic stupidities, that wouldn't happen right now at a lot of other places ...
Welcome, Dima; I hope you enjoy it here and stay a good long while.
(And Charlie; why is it you never chimed in on our food discussion with the comestibles of Lebanon? [Second question: Do Lebanese people identify with Tyre and Sidon as Iranis and Iraqis identify with Persia?])
cookie:
You said you tend to think religion was partly a cause of all this. I have no use for any religion personally, but I don't think of it as a cause; it's only a tool -- used by good and bad people, for good and bad purposes. Some of the finest people I know are devoutly religious, as are some of my atheist friends. And it goes without saying that some of the least humane people in this world come from both camps.
On rec.arts.books the other day, someone said he ran across a passage in the Qu'ran that said it would be better for all the mosques in the world to be destroyed than for one innocent human life to be taken. Right on! I asked him to hunt up the specific citation. It seems to me that the perpetrators of this act are kooks misusing their religion somewhat the way our fundamentalist Christian kooks do. So don't blame the religion for its abusers.
Chuck and Joseph referred to other nations' sympathy and grief for our loss. That has been one of the most moving things of the saturation TV coverage (along with the Jeremy Glick story I also saw) -- including the half-staff American flag and flowers in Moscow. I'm puzzled that I haven't seen anything about reaction in Japan or China, or most other Asian nations aside from Malaysia or Indonesia. Anybody else?
Heather:
Did I really say there was only one character in HE's nonfiction? Yes, I guess that sounds like me. A lot of characters in his fiction sound like him, too, but fortunately you encounter a Valerie Lone, U.J. Peregrin, or Nils Bekh now and then.
Your idea of a bunch of us participating in a sort of subscription Ellison column is intriguing, Heather; get us more Ellison material as well as help to fund KICK. Unfortunately, I see a couple of potential drawbacks:
1) Would we be able to put together enough people to afford his rates, especially since we' ve been able to get cut-rate, conversational Ellison for free, up to now?
2) I suspect any really good writing that Ellison came up with, he'd want to sell to a "legitimate" market where people who are not fans and automatic consumers of his work would be more likely to see it.
But it's a cool idea nonetheless. I don't know how many folks we have on this bulletin board, counting the lurkers, but if there were several hundred, each willing to chip in $5 or $10 for each column, it might possibly be worth Ellison's trouble. Could we do that, and make it work, though?
Dima: That was me with my ancestor's book at the AUB. I am also Lebanese. Still trying to obtain a copy from AUB, but hitting walls.
Hi David, thanks for the welcome! Yes I am Lebanese. I seem to remember that a while back you said that you'd been to AUB looking for an ancestor's books; that's where I studied. How did you like it? I wasn't brought up in Lebanon myself, but I did attend university here. And you're right, you can meet people from all over the world on the internet, isn't it great?
ROB: Secret duct systems for chemicals or knock-out gas? Tell us you're kidding. Otherwise your thinking has clearly taken a turn toward impracticality. Not to mention military-style facism. You're sounding like some of the guys I ran into during my stretch of service. And, if you disagree with that assessment, there's always the question: what if the pilot had a bad day, like the Egyptian (?) airline pilot that recently decided to end it all while flying with a full-load of passengers.
When I was driving around earlier this evening my thoughts were rambling about the problem of upgrading the technology of piloting jetliners. Training to be an airline pilot should be a specialty and demand clearance. It should be classified. You shouldn’t be able to get that training everywhere. I know nothing about piloting planes, but from what I understand anyone can turn the transponders on and off with the most basic training. And though pilots should be armed, the problem of bullets passing through the fuselage exists and tasers are problematic because of distances from the subject. It seems to me secret duct systems for a knock-out chemical or gas somewhere in the airliner would be the only way to go; passengers would be taken out along with the hijackers but the pilots would have absolute control. With camera and high-tech surveillance systems for the pilots to monitor onboard activity they could act swiftly to any disturbance. The overhauls would require money and knowing how manufacturers strive to avoid costs it would probably require heavy prodding. But changes of this sort HAVE to be in the offing.
My privacy is important to me but once I’m on an airliner my safety is their responsibility; if the pilots are able to watch all activity onboard that’s fine with me. In some places a breach of privacy is out of the question; in some, it’s quite preferable (in front of an ATM late at night is a good example). Some people are more extreme on that issue; but I believe in practicality.
Rob,
Cool. Have a gin and tonic on me.
All,
For a tearing look at solidarity around the world, take a look at a journal of photos an acquaintance of mine put together:
http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=10692117
Regards,
Joseph
cookie THE COOL AND THE BRAVE:
Way to go. Face adversity by doing something creative AND face your own fears at the same time. Now that's what I call inspiring. I hope it leads to your sharing your talent more often.
Re: Support from other countries. Would you believe pro-US demonstrations in Havana? Cuba even? Castro may be a beast, but the people there (as I suspected) are alright. Maybe it's time to let up on the prehistoric policy of economic pariah-hood for Cuba.
Cuba. Go figure.
Chuck
Yes. Jeremy Glick and Thomas Burnett and whoever that unnamed third passenger was are all heroes. But I have to give recognition to Liz Glick, as well. Knowing her husband was in one of the worst worst-case scenarios, knowing that he would likely never come home to her and her child, she showed the presence of mind to conference the call to 911.
The same goes for the person Burnett called, who I believe bounced the call to a regional 911 as well.
There are many heroes, in this newly changed world.
Gotcha, Maggie.
I'll get the skill and composure down one of these days. I extend the same apology to you as I did David; only I'll offer you a martini instead of Scotch and soda. If I don't get that skill down fast, with my apologies stacking up, I'll wind up turning everyone here into alcoholics. Sorry for missing your point; that was quite lame.
Joseph,
Noooooo, I mean just the other day I...but, you see, neither you nor I...well, it's like this: I never tried to....DOOOH!
As long as all of us keep learning we’re all very cool, my good man.
Cookie, your post reminds me of a book I'm reading by Deepak Chopra called How To Know God. I know he's considered a New Age guru by some (I usually raise a skeptical eyebrow when someone is described that way) but this particular book is lucid and compelling. It explores the root cause of religion and how the concept of God has grown because of our need to explain the numinous and mysterious.
It's an especially interesting book for me because I have many friends who are skeptics, friends I usually side with when the topics of UFOs and trance chanelling come into play. It's healthy to apply rigorous standards to claims of the supernatural. But I also find some of my atheistic friends a little unforgiving and even evangelical in their views. If someone says "There is no God," I would say, "Define God." If God is perceived as the vengeful tyrant of the Old Testament, I would of course agree. But if your vision of God is more encompassing than that, a way to express connections we are only know beginning to perceive, then I couldn't be so quick to dismiss such a notion. I'm sympathetic to the Eastern notion that if God exists, he or she (or maybe more properly, It) resides in each and every one of us.
Rob -
I meant "be careful" as in - look out for yourself. The thugs are out there and they can, and obviously will, kill perfectly innocent human beings because the only thing they know is hate.
Take a deep breath and think before you leap to a conclusion please.
Maggie
Tonight I caught the last of an MSNBC report featuring the family of Jeremy Glick, the passenger on board Flight 93 who, along with two others, managed in some way we may never know to cause the plane to fall in sparsely populated coal country in Pennsylvania instead of on the Capitol Building.
His mother recalled that, as a child, he voraciously read superhero comics, even calling her Wonder Woman. He wanted to be a fireman when he grew up.
When he told his wife that he and the other passengers were going to try and overcome the knife-wielding terrorists, he actually joked that he still had his butter knife from breakfast.
His last words to his wife were "Hang on, I'll be right back." Those were the last words she heard him say. Unable to listen to what came next, she handed the phone to Glick's father; he described several long moments of silence, then screams. "It's started, they're doing it," he said to her. More silence, then screams again, but different; he described the sound as being like a roller-coaster going down-hill. Then the signal cut off. Whatever happened had happened; it was over.
Jeremy Glick and his wife, married for five years, were high-school sweethearts, king and queen of their senior prom. Their first and only child, daughter Emerson (which means "strength") is only three months old, and will never know her father. But she'll know OF her father, and know he was a true superhero.
Thank you, Michael. I appreciate your kind thoughts. I did it and I'm convinced now that it was the right thing to do. Before I began, I told everyone how grateful I was that they were there, that I had considered cancelling, but that I refused to because in the face of destruction, we needed to commit acts of creation. "Instead of hanging my head to cry, I choose to hold my head up and sing." I saw many nods and smiles.
I began the evening with "Taking a Chance on Love" because right now, it truly seems like to love is to take a chance. I didn't dwell on thematic material ALL night long, though I did perform Horace Silver's "Peace" in memoriam and in hope. For the most part, I did what I always do: sing from my gut, love what I do, and swing as hard as I could with my pianist. The audience was kind, attentive, and tipped well. I guess they needed the joy as much as I.
There wasn't a moment on this gig that the tragedy was not in my heart. But the music took my MIND off it for a minute.
As far as Falwell and his ilk: they shame me. I'm an EXTREMELY liberal Christian. I have roots in the Earth and spent time celebrating the mysteries of life with the Wiccans (naked, saluting the directions, acknowleding the elements; recognizing my equality with nature). I can say some of the basic prayers in Hebrew from worship with Jewish friends and much personal inquiry. I was married outdoors by a Unitarian minister. But I was raised a fundamentalist Baptist Christian. My parents hauled me to see that viper (Falwell) preach one time. I (as you may have guessed) could not stomach fundamentalism by the time I was a teen, but the language and imagery of Christianity remained strong in me. My husband was raised Episcopalian, and I joined that church within a few years after we married. To me, the Episcopal church brought the language of the ancient prayers translated to English, the theatre of the Mass (which I have loved since I was a child though I was taught that Catholics are all going to hell), and a place to retain my liberal thoughts (many Episcopalians are NOT biblical literalists).
I haven't been in church for a long time because a)I'm a wild woman by any church's standards and because b)I usually work late on Saturdays and prefer to worship at St. Mattress by St. Francis of Sinatra.
Still, I chose to go to church this afternoon, say the words of the Great Litany, hear the organ (which brought me to tears---music does that to me), and choke my way through the National Anthem as well as I could (the first song I've sung in days besides the folk tunes I've been practicing with my guitar for a Sunday benefit). I'm a badass "sinner" (and have had EVER so much fun being so), but I was there to meditate and hope that IF God is listening, maybe he'd hear my little soul thanking her for the lives of my friends who were spared, praying for the families of those who were lost, and begging for the strength of those left to clean up after this human mess.
What struck me were the sniffles and tears. I have never heard so much emotion in the Episcopal church ( we are really descendants of the C of E---stiff upper lip and all that).
I'm certainly not convinced that religion is the answer to all of this. I rather believe that religion is, at least in part, the cause of all this. But we seek solace and strive to understand.
Today, I had to pray no matter how uncool and stupid that is. I think my greatest prayer, though, was to lift my voice up and to sing and to swing with determinat