Return to the Harlan Ellison Home Page
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
BOS: If you want to see some GREAT selection of music that you won't see in the stores, go to CDBaby.com. There they stock ONLY indy albums, at some pretty good prices. The quality of the music is pretty uniformly damned good (though I'll admit to only looking at the blues and jazz selections), the shipping costs are reasonable, the attitude is fun, the customer service is excellent, and the fact that a good deal more of the money likely goes to the artist (who almost all have e-mail links posted and actually RESPOND!) is a very nice extra.
FRANK: I agree with you entirely: "Property" is a lie.
I'll be over to take your computer a week from Wednesday.
Zoë~ Three things:
a) Robert's Rules of Order: http://www.rulesonline.com/
b) "People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." Gilbert K. Chesterson
c) In our house, we have a rule. If you're arguing a subject, someone should be able to call "switch!" at any time, and each party must then argue the position opposite their own. This requires a complete understanding of the argument, and often helps one codify one's own position. Arguments disintegrate into quarrels as a direct result of a lack of common definition of terms and concepts.
L.
TO THE ANONYMOUS PACKRAT CALLING ITSELF "f--k y--":
Were I seeking the approbation of monkeys, I might give a minuscule momentary shit about your fundamentalist-adoration-of-the-internet I WANT IT GIVE IT TO ME IT'S MINE GIMME GIMME GIMME adolescent yuppie-offspring garbage. But since the howling wind that blows across the arid terrain between your ears drowns out all ethical considerations and all goodwill or commonsense, I turn away from you with as much concern as I would from the arrant pillar of salt that is your ancestor. I fart smarter entities than you after a good Cobb Salad, you useless little hyena-dropping.
As the Pope replied to the urchin who said, "Fuck you," ..."Fuck ME??? Fuck ME?!??? I'm the Pope, ya little asshole...fuck YOU!"
Cheerily, and without the ball-less, yellowstreak cowardice of them as has to hide out namelessly from standing behind their remarks, yr. pal, Harlan "More Guts on the Most Timorous Day of My Life than You'll Exhibit on the Noblest Day of Yours" Ellison
Diana - It seems to me (although I don't always follow this in real life, sadly) that the point of arguing shouldn't be to "win" but (mostly) to learn. Especially on this here board. Especially when you ask for clarification on something from a specific person, thus being sure to get some opinion mixed in with fact.
A thought, anyway.
--Zoë Rose
Recil
Regarding:
"None of my nephews, or any of their friends give a damn about the books. I would agree with you, that you and I like to read books, but let's face reality, our children and their children will have new media to play around with. Just try to take off the veneer of romance for a minute, look at just how clumsy and antiquated it looks to a kid who can watch a movie and play video games of said movie and watch behind the scenes making of, etc., etc.., and you may get a hint at how static books appear to our younger generations coming down the pipe"
Speaking only from what I see in my son, he started reading before he was two, and for the first seven years of his life he was an avid reader, to the extent that he was, at that point, already reading on a high school level. Then, against my express request NOT to, my asshole mother gave him a couple of video game players. That was the beginning of the end of his interest in reading. Now books are a last resort, if he has no access to the internet, or RPG's, he might pick one up. But really, he almost never reads books anymore. Maybe one or two year, if that. Down from three or four a week at age seven, to maybe one or two a year at eighteen. Very sad. I think so anyway. Did I mention I think my mother's an asshole?
Bye for now.
Diana
CEP
Thanks for your further input on all this.
Regarding:
" The biggest of those compromises is the "work for hire" doctrine; it is also the single doctrine that is behind all of the nonsense on the Internet related to music, movies, and TV. For example, who owns the copyright in a motion picture? The screenwriter? The director? The cinematographer? The set designer? The film editor? None of the above: the copyright in a motion picture is owned by the people who put up the money for it, even if they provided no creative input whatsoever"
I thought that the reason Mr Ellison always insists on the option to use the name Cordwainer Bird is because the above is true. I think I read somewhere that that way if he doesn't have enough control of the creative end of a production he's involved with to where he's able to signifigently effect the results to his satisfaction, and he thus thinks the final outcome sucks, he can, in effect, say he's disowning his part in the whole thing by using his pseudonym. Don't you think that's clever of him to do that? I do.
I would like very much to point out something that I've noticed you did twice so far in your last few posts to me that could maybe cause you some problems when your in a debate with someone. You're not the only person who does this. I hope you don't take it personally that I'm pointing it out.
You make these STATEMENTS and proceed from them as if you've established something by saying these things, when you haven't. You launch your "thuslies" from these statements. I'd recognize this as a weakness in your argument and question your foundational assumptions immediately, if I were arguing with you.Which I'm not. For example, just now, you stated "Art is dangerous. That's its job" If I were looking to win a debate with you I'd jump on that remark like a wolverine. Not because I necessarily disagree with it entirely, or even disagee with it at all, but because I'd be looking to win the argument. If I were arguing with you. Which I'm not. I'm just saying. Maybe art is dangerous, maybe it's not. Maybe being dangerous is art's "job". Maybe it's not. You haven't established this. See?
You did the same kind of thing when you stated "common courtesy dictates..." (or words very similar) then you said, "blah, blah, blah, thusly thusly thusly, blah, blah, blah". Which I didn't pay any attention to, because you'd just made that preceding STATEMENT that I could totally argue against. If I wanted to argue. Which I don't. Again, I'm just saying.
I couldn't, of course win any arguments on legal matters with you. But those two remarks I pointed out up there seemed to be more like philisophical statements, or subjective opinions, or something like that. Easy targets. See?
Bye for now.
Diana
Serious question: why are books so expensive these days too? $30 for a hard cover book, $20 for a trade paperback, $8 for a mass market paperback. I hate to say this, but I buy all my books used (there is a killer used bookstore in Ithaca) or off eBay. My library, sadly, sucks. New releases? Rarely. Wide variety? Not on your life. I donate what I can but...
Between this, and college costing $30,000 a year these days, I'm sort of feeling like there's a conspiracy to keep poor people dumb. Or maybe I'm just paranoid. Or both.
PAB
Someone already said it, but I'll reiterate that:
When Cindy stated: "If you think it will be over in 50 years then you never heard of Harry Potter. BEHOLD another generation of people who cannot make do without books."
That's sounds like a press-kit release or something, Cindy. A whole new generation of kids who want to watch the next harry potter movie. None of my nephews, or any of their friends give a damn about the books. I would agree with you, that you and I like to read books, but let's face reality, our children and their children will have new media to play around with. Just try to take off the veneer of romance for a minute, look at just how clumsy and antiquated it looks to a kid who can watch a movie and play video games of said movie and watch behind the scenes making of, etc., etc.., and you may get a hint at how static books appear to our younger generations coming down the pipe.
Ok, y'all. Diana questioned (politely) my assumptions regarding intellectual property. This is a fair enough question. Some of it requires a little bit more knowledge of the history of law than I'll inflict on you in detail; just trust me. (Yeah, trust a lawyer.)
Lemma: Intellectual property is the very worst way to encourage creation of both artistic and utilitarian mental product--except for all the others.
Specific counterexamples:
* Patronage allows (in fact, encourages) even greater concentration of sources--and therefore lesser diversity of viewpoints--than a private property system.
* Government patronage is even worse. Find me a single work of lasting value that was produced by a Soviet-subsidized artist that did not result in serious repercussions for the artist (Pasternak's inability to accept the Nobel Prize in Literature is only the tip of the iceberg). And don't kid yourself that a "democratic government" would be more trustworthy; it would just be more subtle.
* Expecting artists (broadest meaning) and inventors to survive on "donations" from the public is a true fantasy--particularly because the postindustrial economy depends upon a constant income stream from intellectual property to even exist.
* Allowing "free copying" of originals discourages uncontrolled distribution of works, and would lead to roundabout methods like even worse "shrinkwrap licenses."
None of this is to say that the copyright system is perfect. It is full of compromises, many of which are subject to serious abuse. The biggest of those compromises is the "work for hire" doctrine; it is also the single doctrine that is behind all of the nonsense on the Internet related to music, movies, and TV. For example, who owns the copyright in a motion picture? The screenwriter? The director? The cinematographer? The set designer? The film editor? None of the above: the copyright in a motion picture is owned by the people who put up the money for it, even if they provided no creative input whatsoever. Same for a sound recording. (The composer has a separate copyright, but then there's the "compulsory license" system.)
Stepping back from the economics for a moment, we have a second fundamental assumption.
Lemma: The noneconomic motivations for production of art require respect for artistic integrity and the artist.
This one is less demonstrable, if only because there is only about a 125-year record of art being protected principally by intellectual property laws. Parody is funny, it is necessary, it is essential; vandalism, however, is another matter. Vandalism is what Zoe described with the "filmed in the theater" DVDs, and is what is at issue in the "deprofanitizing" programs being used to remove all the naughty bits from films for the oversensitive (=closed-minded) viewers. Art is dangerous. That's its job. And the artist's dangerous visions must be respected as that artist's. I can trash them as garbage if I choose; but it is intellectually (and otherwise) dishonest to revise them for my own purposes _and then present that revision to others as if it was the artist's original vision_.
Spend two days shoveling and somebody opens the can of worms I referred to before I left. Not that this suprises me any more than a robin heralding the return of Spring in these parts but still. Sadly, "fuck you" actually raised a couple of interesting points and I would even attempt to address them despite the snide attitude but he/she/it posts anonymously so I pass.
In Ellison related news;
http://www.cleveland.com/books/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1045564323274230.xml
Don't know if I'll make it but I like the venue.
- Barney
[only one more vehicle to shovel out - groan]
Okay, I was just kidding, to paraphrase Michael Jackson...."Fuck You is not my son"
Diana
>And because I'm a criminal if I take the existing music in my CD collection and burn it onto a disc that REALLY rocks, my option involves constantly flipping through discs.<
I think you're wrong on this one:
The fair use doctrine allows an individual to make a copy of their lawfully obtained copyrighted work for their own personal use. Allowing people to make a copy of copyrighted music for their personal use provides for enhanced consumer convenience through legitimate and lawful copying. It can also enlarge the exploitable market for the rights holders. The fair use privilege's personal use right is what allows an individual to make a backup copy of their computer software as an essential defense against future media failure.
Personal use also permits music fans to make "mix tapes" or compilations of their favorite songs from their own personal music collection or the radio for their own personal enjoyment in a more convenient format, or "format shifting." Another example of acceptable personal use copying of a copyrighted work is "time-shifting," or the recording of a copyrighted program to enjoy at a later and more convenient time.
>Give me a CD that offers twelve shitty tracks and one good one for $20, something that I cannot even play on my goddam computer because the rapacious music industry wants to control where I do my listening<
FuckYou, you're fucked up. "Shitty tracks" is a personal judgement. Should I steal a book of poetry because I only like one poem? Or pilfer a movie because I only like one actor in it? Why should the record industry tailor their distribution methods to your cranky tastes?
As for playing music on your computer, sorry you're so technically inept, but here's a clue (the first of many you'll be getting on this board): playing CDs on your computer is about the weakest method of reproducing their sound. The sound system is never as good as the cheapest boom box, and if you're spending hundreds to make it so, with portably sub-woofers and the like, you're a geek.
Some of us have no problem buying CDs for just one or two songs; the $20 is not a deal-breaker. Maybe you should spruce up your resume, or ask if you can be promoted to the deep fryer, before you try to spend money like an adult.
Oh, and PETER - Yup, I've learned to love "real" DVDs. Even got a DVD/VCR so I can watch all my videos AND be somewhat up-to-date, as well. Wheee! Recently bought a couple DVDs, too - my favorite being "About a Boy."
--Zoë Rose
Oh, and CINDY-
I'm sad to have to disagree with you. Do you know how many weird looks I get when I tell someone I stayed up late, engrossed in a book? Or how many times my family would be "avoided" in restaurants because OUR version of a "night out" was to go to a bookstore, get new/used books for everyone, and then go out for a reading dinner? One time my dad nearly got in a fistfight when another customer snarked at him for asking the waiter to turn up the 'mood' lights, so we could all read better. There was also the time when, unpopular as I was in middle school, I became even more so for reading a book in the cafeteria. In fact, some jackass kid managed to "jostle" me into dropping the book in the grinder (you know, where all the trays disappeared into?). (Incidentally, the book was "Zoe's Zodiak," a great book for kids who like animals a lot).
Off the subject, but my dad (who assuaged his anger by telling the snarky guy's wife, "My condolences, ma'am,") enforcing our joy of reading and even the crappiness of kids my own age towards my reading, both somehow reinforced my love of escaping into books. I don't understand why others don't love it as much.
And Harry Potter - didn't take long to make it into a movie, now did it. And you and I both know the books are better - are almost ALWAYS better. Unfortunately, so many kids have seen the movie and not read the book. I even know a few who shrugged off having to read the book (so much effort, to read) because they knew the movie was coming out. *sigh*
One more off-the-cuff thought - one of the things I love about the guy I'm dating right now is that we read to eachother as well as suggest books for the other to read. We're on the last book of the "Ender's Game" series, for the ones we read out loud. It's such fun to find someone who likes and gets into reading like I do!
--Randomly,
--Zoë Rose
To "Fuck You"
Son? I told you NOT to post at mommy's forums...
Diana
"Don't pee on my leg and try to tell me it's raining" ~Judge Judy~
I hate her, but that was funny.
Diana
Harlan: Your automobile metaphor is preposterous. (And this from a man who once wrote an essay in which he prided himself on stealing records.) In a perfect world, art would involve transfer from listener to musician, reader to writer. But the reality is that the artist only owns about 10% of the car. Give me a car that is owned in whole or in large part by the artist, souped up with the latest parts and with a surefire maintenance plan, and I would willingly pay for the car. Give me a CD that offers twelve shitty tracks and one good one for $20, something that I cannot even play on my goddam computer because the rapacious music industry wants to control where I do my listening, and I would sooner tell you to sodomize a dead dog for offering me such an inferior product and download it. And I'd do the same goddam thing if you tried to offer me a shitty Dodge Dart for the price of a Lexus.
Of course, now that the single is dead, I can't buy the one good track (or even the killer B-sides not on the album). And because I'm a criminal if I take the existing music in my CD collection and burn it onto a disc that REALLY rocks, my option involves constantly flipping through discs.
Pretty much no one, aside from your fanboys here, cares about your lawsuit because it fails to account for the greed of the RIAA or offer a reasonable copyright alternative. It does not account for the authors who will remain out of print and forgotten because Eldred died and the copyright term as it stands under the Sonny Bono Act is as interminable and as unreasonable as a Theo Angelopoulos film.
$300,000 of your own money to become a poster boy for the RIAA, media conglomeration and corporate greed. Was it worth it?
How come, up 'til Friday, Iraq and Columbia were top news, and today I can't find ANYthing except for that boxing guy? Yeeesh. Anyway...
FORRESTER - Don't have the e-mail anymore ... drop me a line?
DTS - Same to you! Anymore "fat" pictures published of late? Now THERE'S a good picture to spread around the internet... *grin*
Re: Burning CDs. The only time I burn a CD is to make a mix of songs off CDs that I've purchased. You know, get the best songs from each album to make a driving soundtrack, or chillin' soundtrack, etc. And the only soundclips I really listen to are on BMG when I'm thinking of buying a CD from them.
Which makes me wonder... does BMG have ALL their listed artists' permission to put those clips online? I wonder...
--Zoë Rose
If you have purchased a CD at retail price between 1995-2000, you can file a claim for your part of the settlement at
https://webform.musiccdsettlement.com/english/forms/
Just FYI.
PAB
CDs ARE overpriced. It's a fact, jack. They're gouging us (often for an inferior product) and retail sales are declining as a result. In fact, there was a lawsuit recently where the major producers agreed to pay out to everyone who bought an overpriced CD between 1995-2000:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2289224.stm
Napster has NEVER stopped me from buying the CD of an artist I like. I haven't downloaded anything since my association with Mr. Ellison, but when I did, it was to preview content before plunking down my hard-eared $15+.
Similarly, I borrow books from the library, but any book I've ever loved, I've bought. Same goes for music. I never burn CDs or DVDs. If I like it, I buy it. Books are much less risky than CDs-- chances are, if I buy a book, it's a good investment. However, there are several CDs in my collection that are only collecting dust now. Thus, I understand Napster/Morpheus/Kazaa, and why people use them. I sympathize, and I think record companies are *starting* to understand too. They can't get away with extortionist pricing forever and expect a) to stay in business or b) crush the piracy on the Net.
Just my $0.02.
PAB
Frank:
Got no problems with downloading songs, mon ami, I just don't burn the disc. Agreed, I like to sample an album, but don't need to hear the entire thing. Even then, I tend to avoid the MP3 or other download sites, because of the time and effort needed to search, download and listen. When I'm wandering about Amazon or HMV, I tend to listen to the thirty or forty second clips they have, and that'll generally give me enough of a taste for where the album's going to decide if I want to buy.
Besides, those small samples don't ruin the album for me when I want to hear the entire thing, and they don't take up most of my time.
BOS
Yea, Scott, I love the feeling I get when I buy a cd for eighteen bucks and find only one good song--Yea, that sure was a deal there. Downloading a song is like test driving a used car; making sure there are no problems. Most ethical listeners would buy a cd if they liked the overall album. I mean look at Eminem; he is heavily downloaded, but his latest album still sold seven million copies. Not too shabby, bag o' gettin gouged.
Well, I have no writing career (or film, or music, or art...) so I don't have any vested interest, other than respect for those who create. I bang about on the guitar, but rarely with something I'd written; I just don't think my writing is that good.
So, despite the grumblings I have about CDs being a gouge fest for the recording industry, or any and all places where I find prices for DVDS and books always increasing, I buy retail, unless I get a steal at Ebay. No burning cds or DVDS allowed in my home, period. The only place where I go to the lowest price is abebooks.com.
I just feel that the person who's entertained me in some fashion deserves renumeration, plain and simple. It's, to a degree, a quid pro quo arrangement.
Besides, I have no problem with returns should the product be flawed in some fashion.
BOS
One mustn't forget Senator McCarthy, either. Man, the CG was HORRIBLE on that guy! I could spot it from the moon!
Zoë,
If you still have the email address, please drop us a line.
Mr. E: Did that suggestion work, make life a little easier?
PETER,
"When I see a Harryhausen Roc flying down and chewing up Sinbad's sailors, I know it's a fake effect, but one that was painstakingly modeled, molded, feathered, and then animated frame by frame and motion by motion to acheive that effect. I can respect that effect."
This is the way I look at it: you can recognize stop motion animation a mile away, and yet it has it's own charm and quality CG has not yet been able to achieve. Computer graphics can require an equal, if not more, amount of effort than stop motion, but I see what you mean. There's a 'fluid' feel to CG that yanks the creation itself out the of the context of the film.
Nowadays, however, if the character and delivery is GOOD enough, with enough PASSION - i.e. Gollum - I can respect CG. Another nice deal is, unlike stop motion, an actor can actually play the character at the same time, and his/her effort can still be seen on-screen. Sadly, CG has indeed been used as a creative cheat in recent years.
I also believe most anti-CG vibes out there are aftershocks of the cosmic abomination that was Jar-Jar Binks. That bastard ranks with the likes of Scrappy-Doo and Adolf Hitler. It's THAT level of hate.
Recile wrote;
"I think literature and literary careers as we know them will probably shrink to almost extinctive levels over the next 50 years. Sad but true. "
I think you're wrong. I believe that people who understand the value of a book find it not only in the printed word but in the weight of the thing in their hands. The feel of a book, the comfort and the relationship that one has with a book and the words and the author that is not present in any other form.
If you think it will be over in 50 years then you never heard of Harry Potter. BEHOLD another generation of people who cannot make do without books.
Who looks forward to crawling between the covers after a day that's been too long and too difficult and too taxing-- with a computer or MP3 player? It's about a book in your hands at the end of the day-- and forever it shall be.
Cindy
Diana, you take sarcasm to an insane level. But you have my permission to flip off any Jehovah's Witness at your door. They are pests.
I would mention that I am against the concept of "property", but I will leave that can of worms alone.
--------------
Eric Alterman has a great new book called, What Liberal Media? That critiques the idiotic Bernard Goldberg tome and other such rot. He tells the truth about how media is actually conservative, not liberal. And unlike Goldberg or the shit beak Ann Coulter he does his homework.
-------------
So the Directors Guild didn't nominate Bowling For Columbine eh? Can someone say, class envy?
------------
Harlan Ellison
YEAH, BUT...
Just kidding. I've seen the light. Really. I'm not being sarcastic (at the moment) I removed the all the art and wavs and poetry. I can't lay claim to having the high moral qualities of others. I'm not suffering from deep deep guilt over having downloaded and listened to people's music without their permission, or over having looked at a picture without the artist's permission. I think I can live with myself for having done these things (I mean it's not like I shot an innocent little gopher between the eyes or something)(heh heh) But I really can't argue with people when I think their right. It's a form of stealing. I get it.
I'd like to be able to argue, so I can keep swiping stuff but now that I've realized the error of my ways I can't, in good conscience, keep up my evil practices. *SIGH* Fine. OKAY. You're right. I got rid of it all. I'll never do it again. HAPPY NOW???
I'd probably, normally, be sulking for a while, but I've realized I now have an excuse to play with all my image editors and fonts. I'm wondering what me and Photobrush can do to my son's face.
Bye for now.
Diana
ZOE (dot-dot): How's it goin' gorgeous? If I'd had half as much brains at twenty-two as you do, I'd gotten out of twice as much trouble. Shalom and L'Chaim, baby (hope I spelled that right).
--DTS
Zoë:
I really hope you've gone on to watch real DVDs with real picture and sound quality.
People used to pull that stuff in the 80s when video cameras (pre "camcorder") were first coming down in price. When my brother had his tonsils out, a neighbor offered to lend us E.T. on videotape, to cheer him up during his recovery. We thought it strange that our neighbor should have the movie on video, since it had never been released on tape and never shown on cable. Turned out a friend of hers had taken a video camera to a drive-in. Needless to say, the video was unwatchable. We turned it off and returned the tape to our neighbor.
Sounds like the same thing is still going on.
Sheesh.
---Peter
I'll represent "THEM" for a moment, because I'm guilty of most of these crimes, and I understand the mentallity a bit.
The internet allows theft so easily it becomes decriminalized--in much the same way that marijuana is essentially decriminalized in Caleefourneyeyaaay. The kids who push this anarchist line, that all things, art, literature, ideas themselves, the "information superhighway" should be free are extreeeemely intractable. And, the feeling of getting on the internet when it became a whole, organic sort of thing, was intensely liberating. You could GET OVER on folks, now. Corporations no longer had control over EVERYTHING, monopolies dissolved overnight, and kids, mostly kids (and those who can't stop being kids) get high on this shiznit. The arguments Mr. Ellison, et. al. are making are really convincing, but these kids don't care. You could reinvent the American Constitution and put it in front of these kids, they just don't care. I've been there as well. So now, what you have is a situation that can only be resolved as long as they can't "get away with it." Like Mr. Ellison said earlier in his nook, artists are forced to put out fires. And, unfortunately for the future of art in this entire country, world, forever, there are way too many fires to put out, ad nauseum.
One guy that made me really laugh about this was Billy Corgan, the guy from "Smashing Pumpkins", who said in an interview something to the extremely flaky effect that, "All music should be free." He was talking about the Napster case. I just remember thinking to myself, "what a heeepocreeet; there's no way he could produce the extremely overproduced music that he puts out without the revenues he's pulled in." I mean, free music basically puts musicians back into medieval subsistance roles at its logical conclusion.
Ok, so, where am I going with this? I suppose I'm not sure. I can tell you, though, Mr. Ellison, that the only security from internet piracy there is, to my knowledge, is extreme obscurity. Kids are born and raised on piracy-as-self-empowerment anymore--they have access to music, software, and buttloads of porn, and they are legion, and there is absolutely nothing I know of in the way of data, that cannot be found for free, all the time anytime--as long as it's relatively in demand. So, good luck to you as you face off against AOL, the tyrranasaurus-rex of the modern information superhighway, but its those little rodents scurrying about behind your back that will inherit the earth. I think literature and literary careers as we know them will probably shrink to almost extinctive levels over the next 50 years. Sad but true.
Hmmm, I dunno that this made any sense now that I think back on it. maybe that's why I don't get paid to do it...
On "misappropriation," sort of:
A friend of mine invited me over to his apartment last year, to watch "Enemy at the Gates." It was a movie I'd yet to see and wanted to. He added that he had it on DVD, so I was pretty excited - I had as of yet to see a DVD. Yeah, I was kinda behind. Oh well.
I went over and we watched it, but something during the whole viewing bothered me. For one thing, the picture wasn't all that clear. For another, there was an odd shadow-thing that kept popping up at various points in the movie. I was devastated, thinking that DVDs were really crap despite all the hype about them.
I asked my friend watching with me about it and he laughed. "Oh, it's a DVD," he said. "I burned it off the internet from this guy who goes into movie theaters and video tapes the movie. The shadows are people gettinig up during a movie. The pictures not very clear because he's holding the digital camera and moves around sometimes."
He thought it was a lark. He thought it was cool. He had over 20 movies like that, that he'd gotten. I was, even then (before I'd learned of the whole KICK thing and other "ownership" issues), mortified beyond belief. I was even ashamed that I'd watched the damned thing.
I think, when you look at it, that there's no good place to draw the line of when it's ok to take, and when it's not, without permission. Because once it's ok for one little thing to be "misappropriated" ("just" a song, or "just" a picture), then it's all right to record movies and give them away for free on the internet. And thus it's all right to take anyone's art/work/fun from the internet and give it to whomever you please, for free or for profit.
--Zoë Rose
Ben:
I'll grant you that there are a few exceptions, Gollum being one of the few watchable CG characters out there. However, intention isn't even what I'm harping about. It's the craft itself. When I see a Harryhausen Roc flying down and chewing up Sinbad's sailors, I know it's a fake effect, but one that was painstakingly modeled, molded, feathered, and then animated frame by frame and motion by motion to acheive that effect. I can respect that effect. When I see the Centaur in Harry Potter, looking very much like a Harryhausen creature, I can't help but feel cheated, because I know that while it may have taken hundreds of man hours to actually model and texture the thing, animation was acheived through motion capture, and the rest was interpolated and rendered with computers on autopilot. If they went for a more photorealistic approach to the creature, I could accept that. Instead they cheated and went Harryhausen level without doing Harryhausen work.
---Peter
DIANA:
You have GOT to grasp the concept. It doesn't matter if your website, or your school play, or your t-shirt, or your billboard is for profit, for political statement, for lobbying, or--as you phrase it--"for fun." The "fun" thing is YOUR obsession, and so that is YOUR remuneration; it is moot as regards obtaining valid permission. Look at it this way: say you need to drive to West Virginia tonight, whether for "fun" or to say the last words to a dying relative, and you come by my house, use a spooner to pop the lock, hotwire the ignition, and drive away. You have stolen my property, whether it was just a "fun" joyride or a serious, imperative journey. The car isn't yours. The car is mine. You cannot use it, for fun or anything else, without MY permission.
YOUR intention, YOUR true purpose, YOUR excuse why you're not liable . . . it's succotash. Judge Judy dismisses it out of hand; it's bullshit and everyone in the courtroom knows it.
Do you grasp the concept? Your rationales are obfuscations, as are those of the kids who download CDs and steal movies and pilfer stories. What THEY want, what THEY believe, what THEY choose to misunderstand or blow off ... well, it don't mean bat-shit.
Would that I could get the pirates we battle through KICK to understand that simple concept. Thou shall not misappropriate. For misappropriate, read: STEAL.
Seriously, Harlan
PETER,
Personally I believe that computer graphics are only as good as the brains and talent behind them, which explains why a lot of CG work today is...well...crud.
CG is often an act of sheer laziness and little else. Look at DAREDEVIL. The employ of digital technology in fight sequences that should have been truly REAL and BRUTAL deflated the film beyond hope. Mark Steven Johnson lost several notches of my respect in that field. Please, please don't get me started on THE SCORPION KING. Please.
However - HOWEVER - CG properly utilized (as in SERVING the story, not OVERRIDING it) can have it's enormous benefits. The more the CG relies on the actual actor filling in for the digitally-rendered creature, the more spectacular and rewarding the final product. DRAGONHEART's Draco (Sean Connery), for beginners. LORD OF THE RINGS: THE TWO TOWERS' Gollum (Andy Serkis). And hopefully, God willing, THE HULK (Eric Bana). You can throw all that computers can create at the audience, but nothing will ever equal the presence of a flesh and blood thespian. Mix the two, and you've got a diabolical combination.
My feelings, anyway.
Speaking of cornfields, (nice segue, eh?) this Wednesday the revamped Twilight Zone is featuring a sequel and a remake.
Bill Mumy and Cloris Leachman reprise their roles as the evil (not so) little (anymore) Anthony Fremont and his mother, respectively (although a real twist would be a switch in the roles... okay, maybe not) in "It's Still a Good Life."
Also, a remake of "Maple Street" with former brat packer Andrew McCarthy trying to prove he has a career beyond direct to video and made for cable soft porn thrillers.
I have hopes for the Good Life sequel, but just the idea of remaking Maple Street leaves me cold.
---Peter
Nono...that's a very good opinion you have...its very good you think that way. Don't...don't wish me into the corn field....please don't wish me into the corn field....
Sheesh.
CEP
Regarding:
"as a suggested rationale to help people comply with the law's technicalities"
Your little soapbox speech works okay (and *merely* okay) as a "suggested rationale". I could argue with you about it easily if I wanted to. You based what I refer to as your "thuslies" on an unestablished foundation. Only I don't want to argue with you. What you wrote that worked for me was presenting for consideration the idea that someone might, by using some artist's work without their permission, inadvertantly cause them harm or difficulties in some way. As far as I was concerned nothing more needed to be said.
I'd already decided I should revamp my web site. But I was whining to myself about it. You debated my "yeah-buts" effectively. What you said convinced me to go ahead and do what I already knew I should do but was balking at.
Then you went on.
In order for me to be willing to answer your question about where I think your argument broke down it would need to be agreed beforehand that it was to be an abstract exercise. It could be an interesting and entertaining debate, or at least it would be interesting to me, but I'm afraid it might devolve into a lot of virtual hair pulling and name calling, and other such annoying dumbnesses.
I'm trying to avoid that sort of thing for the time being. I hope you understand.
Bye for now.
Diana
Fast, cheap, good. Pick only two.
http://tinyurl.com/60v4
Lonegun Girl:
Correct, but that's the fault of the government's standards for physicians to practice in Canada. We have a backlog of foreign trained physicians living in Canada, driving cabs rather than seeing patients, due to the near impossible task of having to start virtually from scratch to retrain to fit the law created.
Recently, that was changed by the Eves' government, who, under pressure to reverse the cuts into the number of physicans and health care professionals they made in order to fund tax cuts, will allow fast tracking of foreign trained doctors. Of course, the retraining will still take a few years.
Mike Myers and The Treasure of the Sierra Madre: Well, I get the willies about the idea. Smells a lot like colorization to me. I'm one who didn't like "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid".
Love to all, Melissa
Rich:
I can't help but wonder if your trepidation about Meyer's proposed project is the same as mine. When Steve Martin did Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, it was a lot of really effective editing to give the illusion that Martin was interacting with these old movies. Even if you didn't think the movie was particularly funny, at the very least you could appreciate what it took to put it all together.
Nowadays, they don't need editing, just a computer and Forrest Gump.
In a way it's the problem of CG rearing its ugly head again.
I have yet to see a CG creature that doesn't look like something from a Ray Harryhausen film. They're made up of polygons instead of clay, but they still look the part. All computers have done is taken out the really hard bits of animating.
To me it all feels kind of cheap. Like a cheat. Which is why I worry about them digitally inserting Meyers into old movies. It doesn't take skill, or imagination, just a computer and Forrest Gump.
---Peter
I don't know...maybe seeing Myers in a hip, new, edgier Casablanca is just what that movie needs. Or, maybe he could be the next door neighbor to that creepy Nora Desmond. Or, he could be the cub reporter looking for rosebud. The possibilities are endless for utilizing someone else's creative work for a laugh at their expense.
Oh, my, the tears are just pouring down my face it's so funny.
ERIC,
I think the only explanation behind this evil is marijuana HAS been legalized...at least within the confines of Hollywood executive board rooms and celebrity homes.
Maybe it's the snow and ice and the boredom or the sniffing of the glue that's affecting my brain, but I'm gonna have to ask.
Diana,
Charlie's 'argument' seemed pretty straight forward to me and I'm curious to know where it "breaks down". I probably wouldn't have butted in (and I'm ok with you telling me to butt out), but your reply back to CEP is curious. Unless I'm reading it wrong and you're just being facetious?
CEP
Regarding:
"CEP
- Tuesday, February 18 2003 7:4:16
So, then, Diana, where did "[my] argument break down"? Except between the [SOAPBOX] tags, I wasn't making an argument at all, but merely stating the law as it stands. Harlan's lawsuit isn't about whether there was an infringement, but who is responsible for it. Even the "argument" on the soapbox wasn't an argument so much as a suggested rationale to help people comply with the law's technicalities"
See, what did I say? You're an attorney. You want to argue some more. CEP,I should warn you, you'll probably LOSE if you argue with me. Heh heh.
You'll get mad at me if you lose. I don't want you to get mad at me. You might sue me or something. :=P
Bye for now.
Diana
>So Mike Myers and Dreamworks are trying to acquire old movies so that Myers can "insert" himself into them. <
Another dry well in the increasingly parched landscape of the American arts. Har har, let's watch an aging, thickening Mike Myers make non-sequiters in old classics.
Maybe we SHOULD legalize marijuana, after all.
So, then, Diana, where did "[my] argument break down"? Except between the [SOAPBOX] tags, I wasn't making an argument at all, but merely stating the law as it stands. Harlan's lawsuit isn't about whether there was an infringement, but who is responsible for it. Even the "argument" on the soapbox wasn't an argument so much as a suggested rationale to help people comply with the law's technicalities.
Alex Jay Berman
I'm going to have to redo my kudzu pages, but I'll check out the url you offered.
Kudzu is a great resource, and a *serious* pest.
It has many uses. Among other things, it's a food, fiber, and medicinal plant.
It looks to me like a matter of "If you can't beat 'em join 'em". It seems unlikely that it can ever be irradicated, but maybe if the right approach were taken to the present problems with it, the nightmare could be turned into a blessing.
Bye for now.
Diana
So Mike Myers and Dreamworks are trying to acquire old movies so that Myers can "insert" himself into them. Personally, I liked when Steve Martin and Carl Reiner did a variation on this in Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, but why do I have a knee jerk reaction that I probably think this isn't a good idea?
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Movies/02/17/film.dreamworks.myers.reut/index.html
Bill
Thanks for your input. It was appreciated. I think it would probably be a good idea for you to read the rest of the posts in regards to my question when you get a minute or two.
Bye for now.
Diana
Diana,
What everyone else has said and I tried to say. The Stephen King comment I made was an aside and simply made because he's the only damn person I've read about paying for the stuff. I know others have to, movie makers and other writers, but I used him as an example because I knew about it. It doesn't matter if a person makes a gazillion bucks off the property or pay a gazillion for the fun of having a website, you ask permission. I'd be ripshit if someone took one of my crappy stories and posted it, or took the art from my site (which I designed if not actually drew) without the proper permission.
If all this was covered, I'm sorry to repeat it. I quickly scanned the board today as opposed to reading every single post (except CEP's, whose soapbox moment was enjoyable).
Since kudzu was a recent subject on this board, and Chicago seems a perennial subject here, I offer this:
http://tinyurl.com/6041
AND
What about "dingbats" Like the ones of Elvira, or of "The Skellingtons" ? I know the second set of dingbats was issued at the "official" web site of the creators. Using certain dingbats, you'd be reproducing a created image.
Diana
MORE QUESTIONS
My son asked me a question about the intellectual property rights thing as it relates to the internet. He wants to know how far this is going to go, assuming that Mr Ellison, and like minded others can have their way in this regard. He said he didn't think there'd be a lot left on the internet. I don't think that's true. But I thought it was a very good question.
He also asked (and I'd like to know) where one would go to get permission for using something, for example by someone like Jim Croce, or Alan Ginsberg, who's dead. I know that someone dieing does NOT automatically make their creations "public domain" or whatever the term is. My son thought that, but I figure the artist's family or whoever he (she) left their work to would then own the copyrights.
Bye for now.
Diana
Thanks Recil.
But you shouldn't pay my whining about deciding to revamp my web site TOO seriously. I totally *love* making new web pages. This crisis of conscience just gives me an excuse (like I need one) to use my various image editors, and play with all my fonts even more.
(Hi. My name's Diana, and I'm a fontaholic...)
Chuck!
Maddox is a maniac! If you like him, you may like Ze Frank too.
(http://www.zefrank.com)
Neither one of those men are at ALL well.
The Beloved Offspring has returned, cold, chastened and hungry. I'm a bad mother. I plan to make him take a hot bath, dope him up with soup and cold medicine and get him to go to sleep. I know it's evil that I'm a tinsy bit glad he's sick, so I can fuss at him.
Bye for now.
Diana
Good luck Diana.
Hi,
Me again. I was going to answer in more depth to some of the answers I got to my question, but I was dealing with my son all of sudden just as I was writing that last post.
Anyway, some of what "CEP" said, especially the first part, where he was explaining that there could be all kinds of reasons why an artist might not want some of their work used without permission, made sense. Things could be going on that someone like me might not know anything about. However well intentioned a person might be when they used stuff without getting the creator's okay, they could cause problems without knowing it. Of course I never even thought about anything like that.
I realize there's even more to it than just that, but that was a new bit of perspective that I couldn't disagree with. Because it was right. It was a good point.
I could go on to where I think CEP's argument broke down, but I don't want to hurt his feelings. I mean he's an attorney, and they're supposed to be good at debating. He might feel insulted, and want to argue even more. My son just finished having a HUGE shit fit, throwing food and furniture around, and screaming and kicking things over and clenching his fists in my face, and then running out of the house into the cold night even though he's sick. I don't feel up to getting screamed at anymore right now, virtually or otherwise. As I may or may not have mentioned here at the forum, I've got a medical condition which is aggravated by just that kind of stress. When it flares up it gets very painful. I've had to take some codeine/Tylenol pills just now which I hate to do. But he was acting like a total maniac, and I got upset.
Anyway, the reason I asked about all this is that I have all this stuff on my site without permission. And I felt okay about it up until now. But it seems like a conflict of interest, sort of, and all of a sudden. I'm posting in here, and Mr Ellison has been my champion on more than a few occasions, and has been so almost since I began posting. (Not to mention that I adore his very bones and whiskers) It doesn't seem right for me to have all that unauthorized stuff on my site, in light of the fact that this is just the kind of thing he's fighting against happening.
Of course I was sort of hoping someone would say it *was* okay, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. I didn't really think it would anyway, but I was hoping. So I wouldn't have to go and re-do my whole web site. Which I already knew in the back of my mind I should do. But I dun wanna.
Oh well.
I will be screeching and howling throughout the whole process, believe me. But after I feel a little better I guess I'll go start dealing with it.
I'll have the song "We Are The Champions" playing in my mind. :=)
Bye for now.
Diana
Diana
THANKS EVERYBODY for your input.
Bye for now.
Diana
Harlan,
Based on your last post in the 'nook, I have to apologize to you.
When I first joined the message boards long ago, I was very proud to have adapted one of your short stories for a school video project and said so to anyone who'd listen.
The video doesn't exist anymore. I don't even think the school has a copy any more. Besides, it sucked and no more than 20 people saw it.
Sorry, boss. I'd LOVE to do a version that does the story justice one day with your blessing and an exchange of cash.
Jay
Without giving legal advice for Diana's particular situation...
(1) Diana is not committing any "crimes." What she has described does not rise to criminal liability under the Copyright Act.
However...
(2) What she has described appears to violate copyrights (with the single exception of the "Monster Mash," for which she requested and received permission). Whether the artists and musicians involved will choose to object is another matter; what she described is sufficient to create liability if she is presenting entire works, and probably sufficient for less than that.
The WHOLE POINT of Harlan's lawsuit is that it is the CREATOR'S CHOICE how material goes onto the Internet. For all we know, each of the creators at issue would in fact give permission. Even if you are giving "free publicity," maybe that's not what the creator wants. What if, for example, the creator has been forced to withdraw a work because it was found libellous? Or has withdrawn it simply because he/she doesn't like it, or is in a contract dispute with a cocreator, or that this particular "free publicity" undermines other marketing efforts, or...
[SOAPBOX]
Common [expletive deleted] courtesy indicates that if it's not fair use--if one must ask whether it's fair use, it probably isn't--one simply should not put others' creative efforts on one's website. This isn't just from the standpoint of legal liability; it's from the standpoint of respecting artists of all kinds in their efforts to do art, let alone make a living from it.
[/SOAPBOX]
Diana,
I read some of Maddox's writings from the link you posted. He is one sick puppy. A real hurtin' buckaroo.
I like him already.
Chuck
Also, just because your darling little brats are IN the pictures taken by Olan Mills or Sears, doesn't mean they own the rights to copy it on my Kodak Picture Maker. The photographer owns the rights and keeps the negatives and if you cretins would READ THE CONTRACTS YOU SIGN YOU'D KNOW IT!!!
(ahem....sorry...I get that a lot at work.)
If you take a photo, draw a picture, write a sonnet...create it, you have thr right to decide how that material is used. If someone uses the material created by someone else without permission, it is a violation of copyright. Say you post a photograph of a noted author on a web site. That photographer is unable to decide the use of the property of which he or she has legal ownership. If the photographer has given conditional permission to someone, say, the webmaster of a bulletin board, copying of that material and putting it on another site is still a violation.
Say your picture is placed on a website that puts you or the photographer in a negative light. As copyright owner, you have the right to have it removed because the USE of that property is exclusive to you. If someone enters your house, even if they don't take anything, they've still violated the law.
DIANA: Sorry, but the "my own personal interest" thing doesn't wash.
Those creators did that work for pay. They may love the work, true, but it's what they get PAID for, as well. Often, it's their only livelihood.
And you're giving it away for free.
The artists may choose to give away their work, but the choice is no one's to make but theirs. Credit however you may, you did not ask for their permission to give away their work.
In other words, you're doing exactly the sort of thing Harlan's been fighting for the last few years.
Please. Unless you have permission to have that art, music, whatever, on your website, take it off.
Hi Bill.
Thank you for your input. BUT...Stephen King is a writer, Bill, writing with the idea that he'll probably be selling his work, or trying to. If he profits from the sale of that work, or he intends to profit from the sale of work that includes someone else's music, or art work,, then OF COURSE he needs to pay people for their stuff. Whether or not he ever makes a penny of money from the book, or short story, his aim/hope is to do so.
My site is there for fun. I will not, now or ever, as far as I can see, profit from using anyone's work on there. In FACT, in a very real sense I'm providing free advertising for any artist who's work I feature. I pay for that site. It costs me money every single month to have it. I design the logo's. I design the site. All for fun...
I just don't see it as being anything like a situation where the site is a business site, or one that has advertising, or one that's being used to promote the designer, say if they design web sites, or fonts for a living. Mine is a personal interest web site, and nothing more. Still, I wonder...
Please DO let me know what you think about that. I'm *very* interested in feed back and more input.
Bye for now.
Diana
Diana:
I can't speak on a strictly legal standpoint about what you ask, but I can tell you what _I_ would (and do) do. On my site, except for quotes which are about one line or so from various authors here and there (so far Jules Renard, Mark Twain, Harlan Ellison, and Frederick Douglass), I don't have anything on the site that can infringe on someone else's copyright. The artwork on the site was done by my best friend and "commissioned" by me (I offered to pay, he refused and slapped me) and holds his name for the copyright. Other than that, I steer clear simply because I don't want to step on another's toes. I would at least ask the artists for their permission. Same with music. I would think that most quotes and wavs from music would need to be paid for (I've read that Stephen King has shelled out big bucks for songs for his books). That's how I see it and that's how I, personally, do it.
Bill
To Whom It May Concern:
I actually have a serious question about intellectual property rights. I have some pictures on my "me stuff" site that are by various artists & photographers. I have the name of the artist with a link to their web site if they have one. Or I intend to go ahead and add that information where I don't have it presently. I have no reason for having their stuff on my site besides the fact that I think it's cool, and want to turn people on to it. The only reason I have a "me" site is because it's fun. I don't in any way make any kind of money from doing it. Nor do I intend to. There's no advertising. I pay for everything myself.
Plus I have wavs on my site. I say who wrote the songs, and who sang them. I'm planning to put in links to the various artist's sites at some point, and I thought I should put a link to where someone could go buy their stuff. But no one ever said I could use the music. (Except Bobby (Boris) Pickett, who wrote and said "of course" I could use his song) (which is the least he could do all things considered, but I digress) Anyway, I was wondering if I was commiting crimes by having those things on my site without permission?
Bye for now.
Diana
Heh heh....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/uclickcomics/20030210/cx_tmqui_uc/tmqui20030210&e=7
Heh heh....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/uclickcomics/20030202/cx_bo_uc/bo20030202&e=7
(Just 'cuz it's funny)
Diana
Melissa Reeston:
"Conversely, the imbalance favors the US in taking our professionals (doctors, nurses, others in skilled trades). "
Isn't it true, however, that there are restrictions about reverse flow? I seem to remember hearing that it was reasonably simple for physicians to come practice in America from Canada, but that it was almost impossible for American doctors to go to Canada...perhaps to restrict the competition for the current doctors there.
HE:
"If I cut and run, why did they bust their humps? And what about all of you who sent contributions? How could I ever hold my head up in your presence?"
I don't think you really need to worry about not being able to hold up your head amongst your faithful. I suspect those who gave money probably didn't do it as an investment, expecting payback in the form of cash or favorable litigation.
More likely, it was a contribution--for a worthwhile cause, to a worthwhile person. An attempt to confirm that as long as you want to continue in your quest, you will not be entirely alone...
Frank Church:
"Gunther, that shit happens all the time in America....America didn't really learn a thing from 9/11. We are as selfish and dirt cowardly as always."
Although I can not help but be revolted at the lack of concern for his fellow man demonstrated by gaspump guy, I would question the scapegoating of America for this. It seems as unlikely that the sheer geographical presence of a person determines their amounts of selfishness/cowardice as it does that this sort of activity only occurs in America.
It occurs to me that people are people, prone to the same negative and positive qualities wherever they are.
Gunther, that shit happens all the time in America. We have this thing here about saying we care about our fellow man and humanity, but our game is pocket pool. When the chips are down, we fold and run. America didn't really learn a thing from 9/11. We are as selfish and dirt cowardly as always.
-----------
Harlan, sorry for the skirmish with sweet, sensual Diana. I will cook my ugly soup at a slower boil in the future. You the man.
Good luck with your life Harlan. You lived and are living a wonderous life. No need to regret a thing. In the end the best of us will make it--and become even better for it.
--------------
Cindy, go catch Bowling For Columbine; for the film mentions the Canadian health system, briefly.
With that system it has to be seen for what it is: A human right. Sure, you will have the bum politico's who will take from the till, but the freedom to access health care is way too important. The same with welfare. It is better that all have access to a helping hand than a boot in the keister.
No more clowns, I promise. Except for me o' course.
-----------
Gary, Karma balloons centered in a perfect circle. You are a great guy. A breath of fresh air from these heathens.
-------------------
Brian, I saw your name in Sceptic Magazine. You need to write there more. We want to see our uber liberal do good.
Kitty Genovese 2003:
http://www.local6.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-198186820030217-080250.html
The Whimper of Whipped Dogs.
People have learned nothing.
I finished reading MEMOS FROM PURGETORY a couple of days ago and I must say that I have never ever come away from a book as altered as I have this time. I have read stories about Harlan being bold and daring but never had I any clue just how much until I read MEMOS.
My first encounter with Harlan was an episode of SCI-FI BUZZ years back, and after that I tried to get as many of his books as I could and to learn a little something about the man. Even though I liked to read about the man himself, I always believed the man was in the stories. But after MEMOS, I realized that much of him was missing: the real world Harlan. I may be a neophyte when it comes to Harlan and that may explain why I'm taken aback, but golly gee whiz! Harlan did something I never could have done, nor anyone I know could have. I was completely engrossed, pulled and held hostage by the book, by what he did! I couldn't put it down or take my eyes away from it. It had me from beginning to end.
Damn, I really cared what happened to the guy! Sure, I knew he was going to live but was he going to be OK? Really OK? I can't imagine what it must have been like to be him at that time, to put so much on the line for background material for a book (To say "he put so much on the line" is an understatement and possibly an insult to Harlan himself). The man put it ALL on the line. His life.
The Barons stick in the mud of my mind almost as much as Harlan. Especially Pooch. There was something about him that made me concerned for him, worry about him. Even though he was doing horrible things, all I could think of was getting that kid outta' there! Get him some help! Give him a life! There is potential there!
But there was more. Harlan entered the TOMBS. For 24 hours his life was taken from him by someone unknown, and HE was forced to suffer a justice system that saw him as nothing more than a number. I couldn't hold the book still. I was nervous. I was concerned. How the hell could anyone survive that process and come out sane? How could that not scare a humanbeing to the point of no return? I don't think I would have handled it so well.
The thought that keeps running through my mind (and this may have been answered in later works or through articles and whatnot): does a day pass when Harlan does not think about those events? Do thoughts of Pooch and the gang just pop in out of no where? It's been two days and I haven't stopped thinking about those kids, Harlan, the initiation, the gang warfare, the reunion with Pooch years later, the public defenders bereft of compassion, the jaded judge and the friends who came to Harlan's aid. And all I had to do was read it. He lived it.
I really don't know why I felt compelled to write all this down and post it, but there it is. Sorry for the WAY too long post, but this book is stuck in my psyche and I can't get it out.
Thanks,
Steve
Re: Deacons of Defense: I'm very interested in this (and I also love Forest Whitaker), but I don't have Showtime. Any chance that this will be released on video at some point? I don't buy videos, but perhaps I can put in a word to the library. Thanks.
Oh, and HE and CEP: best of luck. I will be chanting hoodoo incantations for your success from here on the East Coast.
Sorry, Corrections:
It should read "of any CanWest/Global station", and parallel should be spelled parallel.
Wait, I just did that...
Mel
Warning!!!: This post is or great length, and does contain more Canadian content than a week's television programming of and CanWest/Global station) Americans, however my find paralells between this discussion and circumstances in the US. No viewer discretion is advised.
There. Cassie's down for a nap, and I've just given the husband a good tongue lashing. Now, back to business.
Don't worry about flames, Velvet. I learned hard from my embarrassing conduct a few months ago vis a vis Bermanator, and Scotty just reminded me. So, let's have at it.
Now, at least we agree (somewhat) that corruption resides in the minds of men, not in the doctrine of political parties. Point taken as well that parties are only as noble as the actions of those so engaged.
Now, to where we diverge:
"True, Ontario's return-to-work initiatives, action plans and employment consulting committees may not work (and, by and large, they do not work), but at least they are making a (half-hearted though it be) effort to try and reduce the number of people on the welfare rolls by encouraging them towards a life in the mainstream."
Now, in all fairness I've never been involved in Ontario Works (the name of the Conservative program), nor know anyone locally who has been enrolled, so I cannot speak from experience on this. Anecdotally, I've heard both positive stories of sucessful clients, and horror stories of those who felt the program was of little or no help to them. So we come to agree in that aspect.
However, Velvet, you fail to mention that the first effort to "aid" those on welfare to get off the dole was to simply cut the amount received by a person on welfare by 22.5 percent. That, and the termination of rent controls (a program promoted by the NDP) basically displaced numerous amounts of of the poorest Ontarians, including some numbers of disabled persons. It's a wonderful idea to promote people to get off welfare by the incentive of self-reliance and rewarding those who wish to work, but I fail to see how an individual can succeed by cutting their funds and then making it difficult to find a place to live.
Certainly, the goverment has repeatedly put forward the amounts of those persons who are no longer on welfare, but have never divulged what became of those people. How many wound up homeless, how many left the province, being unable to maintain residence? How many are struggling just to keep a roof over their heads?
"The NDP keeps increasing funding to welfare and I'm on welfare so if I want to get more money so I can improve my quality of life I have to vote for the NDP so they can increase funding to welfare."
That is the cycle of dependency decided upon by the individual, not by the party. I myself feel that persons on welfare shouldn't be left to believe that a "manna from heaven" mentality is a permanent certainty. My suggestion, and one put forth by a fair number of NDPers is to take funding from the welfare system and put it into filling job vacancies in our economy, by funding direct training. No person should be left to simply collect a check month after month.
"The return-to-work programs in BC have parasitic "consultants"..."
Here in Ontario, the consultants are know as Anderson Consulting, who have had a very incestuous relation with the provincial Tories, by taking millions to advise the Conservatives on social policy reform, then kicking back contributions to the Tories political war chests.
"And the cuts to education, housing, and the like that Campbell's government made? Those programs were getting too much money and not providing enough services for the truly atrocious amounts of taxpayer dollars that they were receiving."
You've answered your own question. Ever heard of throwing out the baby with the bath? My solution would've been rather to cut education, or social housing, find out what's wrong and fix it. A program run efficiently saves money in itself. Don't think for a minute that I, or anyone else should pay for waste.
Now, you and I actually agree that the programs that were in other times cannot be at present. Yes, alteration is needed, but that should not mean irresponsible cuts, and pandering to nescient beliefs promulgated about the poor by governments (remember the statements made by the Tories in severing the additional welfare payments made to pregnant mothers on social assistance? Granted, I don't feel that women on Mother's Allowance should be getting pregnant, but the government's simply claiming that all of these women were using the supplement to buy booze was reprehensible). I see more folks than ever using food banks to survive, and increasing numbers in the waiting lists for affordable housing. There's as much need for social programs in this country than ever.
Well, enough for now. Can we pick this up tomorrow? The kids are about to hit the door.
Love to all, Melissa
Harlan Ellison.
Of COURSE you're a hero. And of course you're only human. Doggedness, stubbornness, and an inclination towards "stiff-neckedness" when it comes to what you see as ethical behavior...the makings of a hero. And the makings of a man who is, no doubt, sometimes ***very*** difficult to live with. One example of an entirely human hero that I knew personally was my own father. He had to have been one of the most stubborn, doggedly-determined-to-make-a-point, and get-you-to-see-things-his-(Translation: the RIGHT) way, never-give-an-inch-if-he-thought-was-right, nag-you-until-your-ears-bled, unreaonable bastards that ever walked the face of this earth. My GOD, that man was a pain in the ass. My f'ckin'n GOD. He was also terribly decent. He was a noble fool. Just as an example of some of his noble foolishness, he campaigned, warred, against American Motors for years over this Rambler he bought once that turned out to be a motorized piece of shit from hell. He wanted satisfaction, or he wanted his money back. He
wanted JUSTICE. One of the many things he did in his battle with that corporate dragon was, he built this HUGE plaster and paper mache lemon. Yep, a lemon. He had it attached to the top of the Rambler, kind of like one of those lighted signs on the top of pizza delivery cars? Only it was a lemon. He drove around with it up there. Everywhere. He'd sometimes pick me up from school in that car. Kids would say things to me like, "You know, your father has a huge lemon on top of his car?" (like maybe they thought no one else had noticed it yet) I'd start praying they didn't ask him why it was up there. But of course they would. So then he'd get to tell them why. At great great length. He wrote these LETTERS to American Motors too. Ten-twenty pages long. Single spaced, both sides of the paper. My dad was famous for his letters. You didn't want to be the receiver of one his letters, because if you were, and you were also one of his kids, he expected you to *read* them. There was going to be a quiz afterwards. To make sure you got his
point(s). My dad really did have the makings of a hero. He fought never ending, sometimes futile battles for truth, justice, and his own way. He was also a "flawed" human being, if one considers not always being able to live up to the very high, even unreasonable standards they've set in their minds as "ideal", flawed. One thing doesn't negate the other. In fact, I suspect they're connected.
The first thing I thought of, when I read your "disclaimer", regarding your being seen as a hero, was a part in Thoreau's "Walden Pond", where Thoreau's quoting Rousseau. Rousseau said, and Thoreau agreed (and so, by the way, do I) that rebeling just for the sake of rebeling, wasn't in the least bit noble, and was, in fact, idle and foolish. He said that there might very well be many times in a man's life, if he were a man of conscience, when he would find that he *had* to go up against the powers-that-be, and against the established and ordinary order of things, just be able to live with himself. It certainly looks like this battle your in with AOL is one of your times. It's a worthy cause. You're right. They're wrong. You've GOT to fight. It seems obvious to you that you do.
Naturally enough, when I read your disclaimer, David & Goliath also came readily to mind. David definately expressed an "of COURSE we should fight" kind of attitude in one famous situation I've read about. David, who was just a youngster at the time of the story I'm thinking of, said as much to his brothers and the other soldiers. His people had been ordered by God to go and fight a much bigger enemy, but they were all afraid to. David sees them all hesitating, and scared and he's confused by their behavior. He points out that they were God's people. That God was on their side, and had ordered them to fight. He couldn't at all understand why everyone else was holding back. He was so sure he was in the right that he felt he had to demonstrate (to get his point across) so went up to the front, and took careful aim at the giant, and shot a stone right between that arrogant s.o.b.'s eyes. And the rest is history.
David was another hero who was also entirely too human many times, by the way. He's famous for that also. God loved him anyway.
Personally, reluctant, unlikely, and imperfect heroes are my favorite kind. I can believe in that kind of a hero. Because they're real. I think those are the best kind. Real ones. The kind that walk around and get irritable, and have hair growing out of them, and are occasionally (even often) weak, and even act stupid sometimes. But when push comes to shove they're also going to be the ones you'll find standing in the gap, too "stubborn, dogged, and stiff-necked" to exit the fight, no matter how tired they get. Because that's what heroes do.
Bye for now.
Your fan, Diana
P.S. (Just in case you don't win...Some other famous guy said that the only causes worth fighting for are lost causes)
AND JUST AS A REFLECTIVE P.S.:
I am more than a quatt chagrined at my snappish tone earlier, chiding the masses for not paying enough attention--in my tunnel-visioned singlemindedness--to the upcoming 9th Circuit Court of Appeals brouhaha. As if you didn't have anything else to worry about in this life. I had no right to whip guilt on you. Bad manners, just plain old bad bad manners, unfair and impertinent. And, more embarrassing, your responses--particularly Barney's--were so sensible and obvious, that I bite my tongue in remorse.
Really.
I ask your forbearance. Sometimes I revert to pure seven-year-old. Unbecoming in a man my age. And EXTREMELY unfair to you loyal little band.
Shriving myself, yr. pal, Harlan
Velvet:
Just saying that this sounds much like our conversations at the dinner table. It's worse when her father and mother come for repast. Yeppers they "those people" too...
Just get the couch ready for me, Mel. Two pillows, please?
BOS, who needs to build a bigger doghouse when he gets home...
rich,
If the "Bill?" you're referring to is me, I sadly say I won't be making I-Con. Too much dough for me. I'd give it up in a heartbeat, but my wife would leave me and I'd be even deeper in financial ruin. If it's true what I heard (that Mr. E attends I-Con every other year) then maybe the year after next. Maybe by that time, things will be better, my own writing will have made it farther, and fun can be had by all. Don't weep for me, just make sure you come here with some great stories (and, again, the offer is extended to anyone who vids Mr. E's lectures, I'll pay for a blank tape to have it recorded).
Bill
In other news....
Holy jeeeeeeezus CRAP, Riddell has a "V" action figure!
Paul, we hardly knew ye.....
Velvet
(Who owns a couple of the media tie-in books to the series, thanks to a used bookstore in Arizona, many many moons ago.)
Hi Melissa!
(Heh...yet another post that only two or three brave Canadian souls on this board will understand. Scroll up or down, whichever direction pleases you, if you don't want to have your retinas burned out by more bandying back and forth of Canadian politics.)
Firstly, a flip answer to your initial point, but a true one nonetheless: You can take the corrupt politician out of the NDP, but you can't take the NDP out of the corruption. And yes, I too curse the name of the starstruck Big Kahuna (Does anyone know why Mulroney has decided to come out of hiding to tell Chretien that the Americans are stupid if they think we'll go to war with them? I mean, even Chretien is not so stunned that he needs a reminder of that, is he? Well, I hope, at any rate.) who visited upon us the curse of the dreaded Goods and Services Tax that has still not been eliminated (a mistake made by the Liberal Party, lest you think I am rabidly partisan or anything), and yes, he was Tory.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my rantings. I blame the men, and not the party. *But*, none of the associated shenanigans that went on, with Vander Zalm, Hargrove, Clark, et al (yes, I lump the SoCreds in with the NDP--deal with it), in my opinion, would have happened if the party's platform and philosophies had not blatantly encouraged it to happen.
So, yes, the corrupt politicians are to blame, but they utilized a political system that let them get away with the corruption a hell of a lot easier than they would have been able to if they were Liberal politicians. Or hell, even Tory ones.
I don't forget the history that I learned on my own (they certainly never taught us this in school), rest assured, I know who Tommy Douglas was. However much amount of good the programs that his party brought in may have done at a time when they were needed, the times have changed, and the programs have NOT, which is the crux of the problem.
The welfare programs may have been coopted by the mainstream parties in the rest of Canada, but at least the welfare system here in Ontario (for instance), is very strongly aimed at making sure that those caught in the social safety net DO NOT remain there for the rest of their lives. For the most part. NDP welfare programs are aimed in the exact opposite direction, with the taxpayers (of which I am one) taking the fall for the costs.
True, Ontario's return-to-work initiatives, action plans and employment consulting committees may not work (and, by and large, they do not work), but at least they are making a (half-hearted though it be) effort to try and reduce the number of people on the welfare rolls by encouraging them towards a life in the mainstream. It has nothing to do with "maintaining power" and everything to do with empowering the individual to stand on their own two feet. Something the NDP welfare policy-makers would shudder in horror at, since, if you're eligible for welfare under an NDP regime (and almost anyone is, if you know how to lie on the applications appropriately, a wilful act of fraud that is encouraged by the "advocates" and never examined too closely by the caseworkers), you are expected to apply for, be granted, and remain in the welfare system, for the rest of your natural existence.
Which leads to the vicious cycle of "The NDP keeps increasing funding to welfare and I'm on welfare so if I want to get more money so I can improve my quality of life I have to vote for the NDP so they can increase funding to welfare." Tell me that is not "maintaining power", please.
You think the Ontario social assistance programs are a joke at providing legitimate return-to-work strategies? The return-to-work programs in BC have parasitic "consultants", taking the government for exorbitant private consultation fees, while sitting there and telling the participants that it would be a good thing if they just stayed on welfare. Ontario's MCSS programs may be a joke, but at least they're making the effort, and not openly telling the participants that they should just shut up, put up, and stay on welfare where they belong in the first place.
And the cuts to education, housing, and the like that Campbell's government made? Those programs were getting too much money and not providing enough services for the truly atrocious amounts of taxpayer dollars that they were receiving.
The wealthy needed those sizable tax cuts because, under the NDP, the taxes were downright demonic. Where the hell else do you think Clark got the three million bucks for the fast ferries that ended up being pulled from the water because the workmanship was so shoddy the boats were in danger of capsizing? And DON'T tell me that every single penny of that three million went into the program it was earmarked for...it was probably distributed quite nicely among the unions who were "responsible" (if such a term can be used when it comes to unionized workers out West) for overseeing the quality of the project.
The cuts are hardly Liberal, I'll agree, but the overfunding of the associated programs *with no improvement in the quality of the services that they provided at all* (and this is the key thing) was wholly unnecessary.
You think Ontario has doctor problems? True, it's rarer than hens' teeth to try and find a GP out here, and getting a family doctor out West is much easier...but try finding a walk-in clinic somewhere that's actually OPEN when it's 3AM in the morning and you've had an accident that requires immediate medical attention. If you're sick and need any kind of medication, good luck getting into your family doctor at all, since they're so often on strike (Yeah, it's a horrible thing what the Liberals did, capping GPs' salaries at, what was it? $85K or $100K? I forget. Horrible thing, that. Truly atrocious, considering the number of three-day weeks most doctors put in, out there.), or not working at all most days of the week.
At least in Ontario, there is no shortage of walk-in clinics that are ALWAYS open ALL the time and won't turn anyone away because they're closed or on strike or only open two days a week. So, the medical system in BC receives much higher funding than the medical system in Ontario...but Ontario provides better service than the BC system. (I say that with full cognizance of the understaffing and underfunding problems that OHIP currently suffers from. They still provide better service than I ever got when I was living out West, even with all the problems they have.) Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture? The NDP sinks more taxpayer dollars into the "socially acceptable" programs, but the programs themselves provide little to no real service at all.
If you are looking for a political party in Canada that will provide social assistance programs that provide an equalization of opportunity, you are definitely barking up the wrong tree. The social programs spearheaded by the NDP and CCF in the past may have had the intentions of providing that, but in the cold, hard, present, those very same programs under the current New Democratic Party banner just widen the already-gaping chasm between the very very rich, and the very very poor. Why do you think British Columbia has little to no middle-class-income earners?
Finally, one last point, and then I have to leave for the dentist (aaaaggh): No, not all those in the system are there by choice; I would argue that the vast majority of them are NOT. But keeping them in the system, and keeping their voter population firmly under the thumb of the politicians, by whose funding they live and die, is the one and only goal of the NDP when they have a majority government.
We now return you to your regularly-scheduled Kubrick, court proceedings and other discussions. Move along home now, nothing to see here. Nothing at all.....
Velvet
(Oh, and Melissa? I'm having great fun with this. I hope you are too. No hard feelings or fanning the flames intended, right?)
Hello to all of Texas, Cindy!
Children aren't asked at all to learn any language, but there is encouragement for children to be engaged in French or English immersion courses, in order for children to bcome bilingual. When one learns both offical languages here, there is an advantage in the job market. Thanks to Scott, I and the kids are now fluent in both English and French. It comes in very handy when we go back to Quebec.
We feel our health care system is of good quality, but there is the disparity of economic resource between Canada and the US (one Canadian dollar = 65 cents, US funds, approximately). The problem is, for our exports having a dollar of lesser value greatly improves our trade with the US, in the fact that our goods can be bought in much larger amounts by US firms; in that way our nation benefits. Tourism is also successful based on the disparity. Conversely, the imbalance favors the US in taking our professionals (doctors, nurses, others in skilled trades). The problem isn't helped by politicians who laid off thousands of health care professionals, claiming these people were in part to blame for massive budgetary overruns. In spite of this, it seems our system still functions well. I've never had complaint about the service I've received for the children and myself.
Well, I've been downright chatty, and my little one wants to see Bob.
Love to all, Melissa
Saluud Harlan,
Good luck, and I promise to never think of you as a good or even mildly decent person ever again!
-recil
Joseph: The NDP isn't "irrelevant" historically -- at its peak federally it held roughly 5-10% of seats in the House of Commons in the early 1980s, and it's managed to hold provincial power at various times, including in Ontario in the early 1990s. I suppose you could always go to whatever the official NDP site is (ndp.ca, ya'd think) and look at its history in more detail.
Cindy: I learned three languages? Geez, how did I miss that? I can pass (actually, have passed) a graduate translation test in written French, though my spoken French is positively Ed Broadbentesque (geez, what, three people are going to get the reference on that last bit?). Public schools and universities alike have been getting the funding bejesus beat out of them by the federal government, as has the health system; the two-headed publically funded school system (public and Roman Catholic) causes its own problems because, at least funding-wise, you're dealing with a duplication of bureacracies.
And on the weird side, this may be the only country in existence where calling someone a "Pepsi" could get you popped in the mouth, and justifiably so.
Cheers, Jon
John G.:
The education system is, as our health care system, single tier public funded, and taxation for it occurs at the provincial level. There are private pay-per-use schooling, and that generally favors the wealthy.
Here in Ontario, we have two school systems the public, secular based system, and the Catholic separate school system. Yes, odd that the Catholic church has say over a system to benefit those of their faith (and non-catholics fund it through the tax system), but the government has moved to allow for tax breaks for any who wish their children to have private educational instruction based on any and all religions.
A better idea? One system, funded by all, ensuring all receive the quality educational training for a transitional economy and job market, as well as funding properly the humanities (art, music, theatre: the first cuts to programs in schools are always to the arts). Vouchers are nonsense: they don't improve choice at all. One trades sending their children to a lousy and underfunded public school for sending their kids to a lousy underfunded private school. If vouchers allowed the poor to send their kids to the most upscale private institutions, then I'd support it.
Now, if all will excuse me, I'm going to take Cassie on a Spongebob adventure. By the way, I loved the Bart Simpson chalkboard gag a couple of weeks ago: "Spongebob is not a contraceptive".
Love to all, Melissa
TODD:
Tough question you asked. Do I ever just "want out of it" -- the KICK lawsuit, that is? I'd be a clot of dirt if I didn't think of it. Like...every day. But...
I'm trapped by my own implacable sense of ethical behavior.
(Let us pause a nanoinstant for this disclaimer: notwithstanding my puffing up like a pouter pigeon with pleasure at the comments some of you have entered, that I'm a "warrior in a noble cause," or words to that effect, I must iterate for the millionth time...
(I am EXTREMELY uncomfortable being cast in the role of Bolivar or Zola or John Peter Zenger. Trust me, I am anything but insensitive to the serious ramifications of what I'm doing; but there is a klaxon that goes off in the alabaster corridors of my heroic image of myself, that warns me ever and again that I am a SERIOUSLY flawed human being, given to mountebank behavior disguised as the labors of Zorro.
(Bringing down the icon is a traditional agora pasttime of the
bread&circuses mentality--5 hours of teleprogramming tonight on Michael Jackson--and I suspect that the nobler you try to be, the more ethical you strive to be, the more effective in your efforts you try to be, the faster "they" will point out that your Achilles Heel is weightier in the balance than your Good Deeds. And if "they" want you, kiddo, they'll find the indictment to get you. Clinton, poor bastard, is a prime example. No one has to look very far, or probe very deeply, to find some act of carelessness or casual dopiness in my past--or present, for that matter--that invalidates everything positive I've tried to do in my life.
(So. I privately batten on the kudos, as any jerk would; but also privately, I worry that making a hero of me in any way only feeds the appetites of those who would be happy to see me mulched.)
And so, do I wish I could just "get out of it" after three years and $312,000 I'll probably never recoup, even if we win?
One sane, survival-prone borough in me says YES YES YES. But I've painted myself into an ethical corner. (Probably intentionally, on a subconscious level; thus making it IMPOSSIBLE for me to withdraw, no matter how much I'd like to run the other way.) Up until I started accepting money from others to fight this fight, it was only me against them. I know to the core of my soul that this is a Good Fight and that SOMEONE needs to fight it, but I'm on the cusp of age 69, that's what many consider an old man. I have fought many such battles in my time, and I'd sorta figured my days on the battlements were over, let some other idiot run the gantlet of honorable effort. But here I am again, out there suckin' up the bullets. (Clearly the imprimateur of the unreconstructed recidivist asshole.) And since so many of you have sent your large&small
contributions, which I am honor-bound to repay when I prevail in this e.shootout.at.the.aol.corral, I CANNOT bolt and run. Not even if AOL came to us tomorrow (which they show no signs of doing, thank goodness) and said they'd make me financially whole again. I STILL couldn't abandon the field. Not until i have FORCED them to install the same software-at least--as Critical Path/RemarQ found it so unexpectedly easy to do when we won against that defendant in the earlier phase of this action. When AOL has accepted its responsibilities, when it stops treating copyright and the authors who live by its precepts as inconsequential, a mere nuisance that interferes with its money-grubbing...when AOL becomes a partner in shutting down pirates, thieves, selfish little grab-rats, rather than aiding and abetting their gimme-gimme turpitude by turning its head (like those who didn't WANT to know about 6 million Jews being killed, who turned their heads, and said "not my business") -- well, then and only then can I back off.
I am no hero. I'm dogged, and stubborn, and midwestern stiffnecked when it comes to ethical behavior, but I'd be empty of all commonsense if I didn't think, daily, of a time when all this was in the past, when the nest-egg I worked 30 years to collect was back in the bank.
Time grows shorter for me, as it does for all men. I don't plan on checking out just yet, but even if I weren't anthracite-hard committed to this crusade for writers' rights--even if the Noble Organizations that prattle on about "serving the creators' primacy of interest" ceased ignoring this landmark effort and gave us a litle recognition and aid--even if it all worked out to our total victory--even if--even if--well, I'd still have lost three years' worth of stories I might have written. I've been effectively frozen in terms of new work for much of that time...I think, what, three-four stories in the last three years? A couple of essay? A movie, maybe? Not what I'm equipped to turn out, or anxious to turn out. Not nearly.
They've cost me. I've paid in the dearest coin. The hours of life remaining to me. And even if the urge to bolt and duck and cover or duct&cover overwhelmed me, I am in this for the long haul. Not to mention the Herculean efforts of Charlie Petit, John Carmichael, Glen kulik, Bridget Connelly and Christine Valada before them. If I cut and run, why did they bust their humps? And what about all of you who sent contributions? How could I ever hold my head up in your presence? How would I explain to you, yes, they offered me a half a million to settle out of court, but no software, no protection...just money...how could I tell you that without drowning in shame at my unethical, self-serving behavior?
Do I want to live in peace? Yew betcha. Would I opt out for that simple reward. Oh dear, how I'd love to. but it ain't gonna happen. In for a penny is in for a pound.
I have no choice.
I've spent almost 69 years becoming a person who has no choice.
Wearily, yr. pal, Harlan
I have been told that the Canadian public school system is superior to ours here in the United States.
Children are required to learn three languages-- and in all other subjects they excell in comparison with other students world wide.
I have heard that the state run medical services are substandard to those of the United States because a large number of prominent Canadian physicians come to the United States to practise so they can make better money.
HOWEVER, I have a buddy who flew his plane up there and ended up sick. He said the care he recieved up there was superb.
What do y'all think of the schools and the medical care?
Hello to your Scott.
Cindy
Rich, my wife and I plan on attending I-Con, so if you need any help of any kind(ie the camera stuff, although my expertise would be more of the moving objects around variety), just let me know. We'd love to meet some Webderlanders.
Guys, I don't know why, but I am finding this Canadian politics stuff fascinating. How does local schooling(I'm thinking of the US grades 1-12 kind of thing) typically get paid for in Canada, any way?
THE TENTH LEVEL (starring William Shatner) was broadcast on CBS (in 1976), not PBS.
Velvet:
Now, when I'd read your post, I read a lot less about the NDP than I did about a corrupt and rudderless leadership, be it Hargrove or Clark, or any of those throughout Ontario who voted the NDP in as a repudiation of both the provincial Liberals, and the then federal Conservatives (Mulroney is a name still often bracketed by profanities), rather than voted for thier policies. Rae was doomed to failure; he couldn't introduce core policy due to growing the growing designs of neo-conservatism, as well as a global recession.
You blame the party, not the men. An all too common mistake. But, should we talk about the men, let's discuss Tommy Douglas, the NDP premier of Saskatchewan; the one who fought for national health care, even at the cost of losing his job governing the province. You forget that the CCF, the NDP's forerunner, was at the front of the battle assisting unions and farmers to organize, to make sure that the families of these men and women could earn a decent living wage.
You see the NDP as irrelevant: Think of how often socialists were the ones behind other government's policies. Mackenzie King introduced the Old Age Pension program only after socialists reminded him that his weak coalition government would fall to the Conservatives without their support. Child care, increased medical benefits for seniors, welfare, disability pensions, all were the brainchildren of socialist and NDP thinking, then co-opted by more mainstream parties who were less interested in human welfare than they were in maintaining power.
You mention Campbell's mistake, very human I'll admit, but what about his draconian law to undermine the right of health care professionals to bargain collectively, or the cuts he has made to education or social housing, in order to favor the wealthy with sizeable tax cuts? Hardly Liberal, if you don't mind my saying.
I support the NDP as a left or center party, the only true left of center party in Canada. I do see the need for a strong voice for liberal values, especially when I see the tide of neo-conservatism sweep away many of our poorer and less fortunate souls, cutting needed social progams which could assist the poor in bettering their lot in life by providing an equalization of opportunity. Not all of those at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder are there by choice, and I do believe there must be a voice to speak for them, especially in this "Greed is Good" age of neo-conservatism.
Don't worry, I more than handle my own against that libertarian I'm married to. After making his churlish little smartass comment, he found that a quiet, peace-loving NDPer can still pack a pretty good punch.
Love to all, Melissa
Gary,
I have lost much of my family these last two years, but that pales in comparison to your loss. I honestly don't know what I would do if my wife was no longer with me and I can only marvel at your fortitude and offer my sympathy. "Turd in a punchbowl"? Hardly, but feel free to drop them as often as you like.
And, when you get to ICon, the first drink's on me.
Todd,
And that second drink will be to you and your family. It may not relieve you any iota of pain, but we're thinking of you.
Harlan,
And dinner's on me when Charlie argues like Darrow on crank and wows 'em all.
Seriously, you mentioned maybe possibly sorta if it works out kinda maybe getting together with the Webderlanders. I haven't heard anything regarding whether I really can tape you or not since my last post on the subject so I'm going to assume it's a bit more of a pain in the ass that you probably don't need right now and will leave the camera at home so...If you are able to get together with some of us (I know Jim is going, Bill?, Gary, and probably a couple others I'm forgetting) I hereby offer to buy you and Susan dinner at the establishment of your choice. No strings attached. And, even if you don't have the time to get together with us Webderlanders, the offer still stands for you and Susan to have a cozy dinner together sans the slobbering fans.
And, for those of you who may think I have ulterior motives, let me just say this: I do. I don't live in CaliforNI-A and my opportunities to see The Man Hissownself are limited so it's not everyday that an opportunity to give back to an author whose work you admire comes along.
So who else is going to ICon? And, no, I'm not buying you dinner.
Brian:
Yes, THE TENTH LEVEL was based on Milgram's experiments, fictionalized. The reflexivity was Shatner's character himself making the subjects suffer in the name of the authority of Science and Publishorperish--that he was himself no better than the Nuernburg defendants. It's that whole "ends and means" argument again.
PAB:
It's late. I gotta get to bed. But I did see "Igby Goes Down." The local critics went nuts over it. I enjoyed it, but maybe not quite as much as they did. Here's my writeup for AllWatchers.com:
"Igby Slocumb (Culkin), 17, has been thrown out of just about every elite private school on the East Coast. Aside from his hatred of school, Igby is trying to deal with his feelings about his father Jason, who's locked away in a mental asylum (Pullman, in a small but powerful role), and his hatred for his mother Mimi (Sarandon, marvelously irritating), a domineering bitch having an affair with his godfather D.H. (Goldblum, terrifically smarmy), who incidentally is married and has other chippies on the side, and for his older brother Oliver, a Conservative Republican A-student at Columbia (nicely underplayed by Ryan Phillippe). Igby manages to ditch the military academy his family dumps him in and becomes Holden Caulfield loose in Manhattan, where he hooks up with some Warhol-group style characters: Rachel, the gorgeous but razor thin heroin addict (Peet) who sleeps with D.H. in lieu of paying rent on her artist's loft, and her smack-dealing boyfriend Russel (Jared Harris). Luckily, a luscious and wry Bennington dropout named Sookie (Danes) takes a shine to our hero. Maybe these people are privileged snivelers and not terribly likable when you come down to it, but the dialogue is fast, witty, and crackling -- the film is like "The Royal Tenenbaums" with a more bitter edge to it -- and the acting extremely delightful."
Harlan,
I will have to also plea to being ignernt and uneddicated when it comes to legal matters, so I had no idea just how important this next phase in the legal battle was. To you and Charlie, best of luck and Good Hunting. I hope you bring back the bearskin.
Gary,
When I read your second posting, I was not dumbfounded.
I said, "Jesus! Jesus! Jesusjesusjesus!" Eloquent things like that. Your posting was, however, not a 'turd', though. Actually, I found it rather life affirming. I'm glad you decided to de-lurk.
Todd,
I hope your mother and your father in-law beat the odds. As Cindy pointed out, the fate of patients is not as predictable as some doctors think they are.
Chuck
TODD WROTE;
"And my mother, who could actually be counting her days now; who states that the doctor said he would try to give her another 5 years with chemo.....and that was 5 years ago this spring. He kept his promise, and nature now keeps hers."
Todd,
My brother, the neurologist said when he was in school they taught them not to ever put a time limit on a person's life.. they said it was wrong to do so. He said the bottom line is
"they can't know". They can quote statistics til the cows come home but they can't tell for certain. To put a number in a person's mind can result in their giving up and bringing the end more quickly than necessary.
I hope you are all right. I'm sorry about your mom and your father-in-law. You're a good man- she raised you right and I'm sure she gets a great deal of comfort from having you close by.
We're around too if you need to talk.
Cindy
Oh, yeah, like everyone else, here I am, after shooting my mouth (or my foot, one can never know about these things until after the shot is heard) off at the topic of my lungs (heh) on my own personal buttonpushings, and then appending an apologetic little note to the end to say, "Hey, I read that post, and I thought, WAY TO GO HARLAN ON THE 6th!"
Let me echo other sentiments preposted, and say best of luck, and to the lawyer: You're hunting for bear here, Charlie, and it looks like you've realized that. Bringing the anti-Napster people in on this one is like hunting for bear with a Tunguska-sized pit. Go get 'em!
Velvet
Scott!?! She's a card-carrying member of THE NDP?! Run, man! RUN! RUN WHILE YOU STILL CAN!! I'LL COVER YOU! RUN! RUN! RUN, SCOTT, RUUUUUUNNNNNNNNN!!!
Heh. For anyone who thinks the NDP is "libertarian", I would just like to say here and now that the NDP is just about as libertarian as the Chinese government was on the eve of the Tiananmen Square massacres. The NDP (what there is left of it, thankfully) is the only socialist party in North America. Their stronghold was, for many many terms, the province of British Columbia, where the voters finally got tired of all the scandals that they knew of (just imagine what else went down that the media WASN'T allowed to publicize), tired of their local government and the local unions being parasitic appendages of each other, and tired of the New Democratic Party's (Yes, that's the full name. The sheer oxymoronicity of the name is why it is almost always acronymized.) unofficial policy of "Lifelong welfare and unemployment for ALL!" (All excluding the uncivil servants and the union members, of course. I can remember teachers driving Porsches and Jaguars and dressing fit to kill on the salaries they made, while the education they provided the barely-lower-class-income kids was reprehensible, to say the least. And they STILL held strikes for more. Meanwhile, the government just gave them whatever they wanted, thanks to all the back-room deals between union leaders and NDP politicians that passed for an economy out there.)
Of course, now that the last, best hope for preventing the province from going bankrupt has fucked up, but good, I would be very, very surprised, if the voter population in BC voted Gordon Campbell's Liberals in for another term, instead of restoring the NDP to their former overglorified and self-important status. To their everlasting short-sighted and narrow-minded detriment and regret, might I add. (Gordon Campbell, in my opinion, is the best political leader I'VE seen come along out West in a long, long, time, as he actually had the moral courage to stand up and ADMIT that he did wrong, and say "Screw you if you think I'm not human and can't mistakes.")
Here's the way I see it: The only way the BC voters will vote the Liberals back in, is if the party has a different leader at the helm, but sticks very closely to the fifteen-year-plan that, it was estimated, would be needed to reverse the nearly two decades' worth of damage done to the economy and the infrastructure of the province by the NDP, and its bastard stepsister, the Social Credit Party. Yikes. That run-on sentence should be punishable by death by caterpillars or something, shouldn't it? Anyway.
(I forget what the deadline from the federal government is for the provinces to have their budgets completely balanced and to be running deficit-free, but if BC cans the Liberals now, they're looking at declaring bankruptcy when the clock strikes midnight on that deal. Or did the feddies back down on that ultimatum? Haven't been keeping up with the news as I should....)
No way they'll vote the Liberal Party back in with Campbell still in charge, though. And don't be surprised if the unions mount a concerted effort to try and get him to resign. Look forward to BC being the star of a very bad near-future spec fic novel, either way; the federal government probably WILL come through with the funds to keep the province going at the eleventh hour, but it'll be on the taxpayer's backs, and most of the rest of the country wants BC to separate and Quebec to stay, while the respective governments of those provinces want the diametric opposite.
If the federal government can't pony up enough to bail out BC, though? Look for them to either be annexed to the US (Everyone In Silico, anyone?), or sold off to the highest bidder in an auction between Pacific Rim countries.
Yes, folks, it's all here! It's wild! It's weird! It's Stranger Than Fiction! It's Politics in British Columbia!!
Velvet
(Oh, yeah. Hi, Melissa. Lest you perceive any of this to be a personal attack, fear not, it isn't. My prefacing comments were entirely tongue-in-cheek, as I'm sure Scott's were regarding his horror at being married to "a stinking pinko", as a girl I know used to label herself. So, no personal affront intended, and none taken, right, Mel? Good. Second note, to any who wants to reduce my post down to its component parts for shipping and yell that old saw at me about "informed opinions", I grew up in BC, and you can't get much more informed about socialist dictatorial rule in Canada than by living under it while growing up. In my opinion, of course. Thirdly, yes, I do take great glee in the fact that only about five people who read this board will understand more than six words of this overly-long post.)
I just finished watching Deacons of Defense.
" God made us men-- Samuel Colt made us equal." I don't know where that quote came from originally but it's right you know. So was that film. It never missed a lick.
Right down to the white yankee boys thinking that rules were still applicable in the South. They wanted a non-violent resolution and believed it to be a possiblity.
Down here, rules frequently do not apply.
Watching the children clubbed by cops-- chewed on by dogs and burned with tear gas.. all I could think of was the South bloated and swollen and pregnant with the horrible way it allowed people to be treated--- finally brought to its knees by the labor of something long over due.
It was only through unflinching bravery, blood, pain and steely resolve that the transition was made.
I was struck by the bravery of the white boys that came down from the North to a foreign country where people's minds could NOT be changed, their behavior only channelled by deadly force and threat of violence.
But even more brave-- the black men who rose up against everything they had been raised to believe was right and acceptable.
Things are still not right down here- but I believe that every generation dilutes the poison by a fraction. Raising kids together-- side by side in school really was the true solution. They get to know one another. Little kids don't see the differences that their parents saw. Their parents see less than their grandparents. Eventually the hate will be filtered like toxins working their way through soil to be dissipated by the time it hits the ground water.
My only objection to Deacons of Defense was the rating... 14 and over. I thought the film was perfectly appropriate for my 9 year old and my six year old. The content was so much more important than any offensive language or violence- -none of which was gratuitous. My kids asked questions. " Mama why did they treat those people like that?" " Why did those men wear costumes and cover up their faces?"
I thought the film was a wonder. The director was gifted in the extreme. The casting was flawless and the dialog right on the money.
Thanks to Harlan for mentioning the film would be aired tonight. He is entitled to be proud of having a hand in the real way things worked out down here. As I said--it was long over due.
Holy Sheepshit, Batman, I just read through the past few days of postings (as I've really been falling behind on keeping up) and I saw Harlan's posting on the big March 6 event. After all this time, it comes to a bit of a head: though I don't understand law enough to know if the result of this hearing will be known immediately or will take some time for a decision.
This posting came at a time when I was about to ask the following of Harlan: Do you ever want to just get out of it? Though you have always been the prince of pitbulls, do you ever want to just give up the fight and enjoy what's left?
I might be ruminating thusly because of events taking place in my life. My mother has been rapidly sliding downhill after a 10-year battle with cancer (spending the last week in ICU after congestive heart failure that was minutes from killing her) and my father-in-law was just struck with the news that not only does he have cancer, but he has about a year to live and only a 5% chance of extending it to 5 years with heavy chemo. Out of the blue, that one came.
So, I wonder about things. I wonder about what I would really do with my year given his news. What I could enjoy (casino trips? Doesn't seem as fun any more if the winning only makes me think of how I won't be able to spend my dollars soon)? And my mother, who could actually be counting her days now; who states that the doctor said he would try to give her another 5 years with chemo.....and that was 5 years ago this spring. He kept his promise, and nature now keeps hers.
So I guess that's why I was going to ask that of Harlan.....but only because it seemed like things were stalled in the usual court system stalling. But heck, big doings in just a few weeks. I guess it's a silly question now.
Go get 'em muthufuckuh!
-TODD
Welp, just got back from Daredevil......not that Spider-Man was some grand motion picture, but it was a helluva lot better as Marvel cartoony motion pictures go than Daredevil. This flic was just a little too goofy, and Ben Affleck only seems to appeal to me when he is joking around and serving as the butt of all jokes on Kevin Smith DVD commentaries. Very dull star, very dull movie. Colin Farrell was fine, though.
Thank God my weekend movie viewing involved one other film; much better: The Quiet American. What I love about being here in the metropolitan Phoenix area is that the theaters that play those hard-to-find pictures are in far superior condition than those in NJ that we were forced to trek to. I've found a couple of great theaters in Scottsdale that show those films that ain't making it to the local AMC. And these are quality places. It's great to see a quality film like TQA without having to beg the manager for focus, and sound, and proper framing and some goddamn heat during the winter.
DD - pooh The Quiet American - huzzah!
Almost time for the penultimate OZ. Ciao!
-TODD
Oh, and one other thing.
Harlan: I wish you every bit of luck in court. That's because we both know there ain't no God, so luck's all we got.
Well, that, 'n brains.
Go in there, and kill.
Mr. Ellison: It goes without saying that I wish you well in ALL your endeavors, the legalistic ones especially lately. I'll light a little candle for you one 3/6.
David L: Whenever you get around to it, I'm all ears about THE HOURS. I really enjoyed it, btw. The acting was great-- I mean, that movie had just about the most amazing cast of the year. Strong performances all around, even from actors playing characters I didn't like. I'll be interested to see how it fares in the Oscars this year...
I guess no one besides me has seen IGBY GOES DOWN. Huh. I wish one of you guys would, just so I'd have someone to talk about it with.
PAB
CHARLIE:
Kick ass.
Charlie, how well I know what courthouses are like. I come from a family of lawyers--father, brother and sister. Heck, you might have run into my twin sister practicing law out there in L.A. You know all of us are with you in spirit--but even if I lived out there, well, I'd rather read the briefs than sit in the courtroom. I get enough sleep as it is (g).
Best of luck when the arguments come. It's a fickle system, and the good don't always win. But you've won everybody's respect here. You know it.
--Alex
Lil' Washu - 2002-2003
RIP
Harlan, the only reason -the SOLE reason- we didn't allude to KICK too often is because it was the one topic first and foremost on our minds -conscious or subconscious- whenever we so much as dropped by. THAT'S why we chatted on sophomoric, irrelevant threads such as Marvel movie adaptations.
I wish you God or the closest equivalent on your side, Harlan. By the time you read this, you'll probably know the verdict. Whatever the outcome, I hope my meager offering was at least something of a boost.
You're a good man.
Joseph: www.ndp.ca
Within Canada's political spectrum, they are far more to the left to the Liberal Party, who carry out much of the platform proposed by the far-right Canadian Alliance, who are, based on Joe Clark's assertions, less to the right than the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, who are pretty much irrelevant...
I've supported the Rhino Party, and the Libertarian Party of Canada.
We even have a federal party here, the Bloc Quebecquois, who want to govern Canada by dissolving the nation.
What fun we have, come election time!
BOS
CEP's description of Shatner's film _The Tenth Level_ sounds as though it was based on Stanley Milgram's famous "Obedience to Authority" experiments.
The experiment went like this. You and another man were chosen to run experiments in learning. The man would be placed in a chair, with wires running to his fingers. You would read him word pairs, and he'd recite them back at you. If he made a mistake, you would press a switch, and the man would receive a small jolt of electricity. The switches would increase in intensity, and the last few were marked "X," "XX," and "XXX." And if you were reticent about hitting the switches, there was a lab-coated figure with a clipboard who'd insist that the experiment had to continue.
Now, the man was an actor, and he wasn't getting any jolts at all. The experiment was whether people would continue the routine until they pressed the "XXX" button. I seem to recall that the percentage of people who _did_ reach this threshold was around 64%.
Milgram did lots of variations on this-- whether the "teacher" could see the person while they were being shocked, whether the victim was male or female, with and without the presence of an authority figure in a lab coat (and with and without the lab coat), etc. But his conclusions were more than a little unsettling, especially when one recalled the Nuremberg defense of "only following orders."
It's obvious that this is the sort of experiment that intellectuals love, because there's no end to the spins and interpretations one can layer upon it. Does it show that humans are innately spineless and malleable? Or that there's an undercurrent of savagery that's just waiting for such an excuse to manifest itself? Usually, the chatter about Milgram's work is directed at proving that the person doing the chattering is morally superior to the ordinary people who pushed the buttons.
I ought to mention that you can't do experiments like Milgram's today. There are much stronger safeguards about informing human subjects about such things.
Anyways, CEP: what was the "reflexive" ending of the movie?
Scott,
Isn't the NDP one of the more the liberal parties in Canada? What's so scary about that? Are they the equivalant of the US Greens or Libertartians - noisy, raising a couple of good points, but ultimately useless?
Regards,
Joseph
I have very carefully been low key regarding the hearing in the lawsuit. I'm not the star here; Harlan is. That said, if you want to see me "star," the hearing is open to the public. Actually, it might be an interesting experience for anyone who believes ANYTHING he or she has ever seen on TV or the movies about the way things go in court. Practicing law is very much like being a WWI aviator; as Edward Mannock (one of the leading British aces) remarked, it was hours and days of boredom punctuated by a few seconds of sheer terror.
If you're going to go--or even if you're not--I recommend skimming the briefs that I've posted on my website (the link toward the top of the page will get you there).
Aside: One other redeeming feature of Shatner's pre-ST:TM career was a 1970s PBS American Playhouse feature called THE TENTH LEVEL. Shatner played a psychologist who was experimenting with the effects of "authority figures" on normal people. The reflexive ending is a bit overstated, but is something that more psychologists and sociologists need to think about--because the play extends quite a bit beyond the very real experiments it is based upon (and has disturbing implications for the "war on terror" for both "sides"). Although it could have been played very much "over the top," it wasn't; Shatner was a model of restraint (for him, anyway). The musical score is independently interesting for some of the musical in-jokes and crossreferences.
Gary: It may not be of much comfort, but I know how you feel. I am truly sorry for your loss, and hope that all that shall remain for you are the wonderful memories of your wife, and the joy for each other both of you obviously shared.
Bill: People don't understand it when we donate to the various charities we support, why we don't wait for the applause. I explained it, so that others who may have as much heart for the cause, but not as much money as I, can still feel good about their contribution. KICK, like every other charity, is a "every little bit counts" arrangement; I don't want to impede the flow. Still, you've no cause to apologize, and yes, I do like my head. It's right where it should be, and I got the right number of orifices and everything...
BTW, from Mel: To any and all who attended demonstrations protesting potential invasion of Iraq, her thanks for your contribution. And grumblings from me and so many others who stayed home, tending housework and children.
Next Week: BOS struggles to keep his libertarian viewpoints flying freely in the face of continuing espousal of socialist policies in:
I MARRIED A CARD-CARRYING MEMBER OF THE NDP!!!!
The terror is all too real...
BOS
First off, Mr. Ellison – PLEASE do not feel bad about having expressed your best to my wife following my first post. There was no way to know about current events from that tale. I wanted to introduce a piece of our life, before speaking of her passing. When I was able to get back to the board I related the denouement. I appreciate ALL the sentiments expressed here, both before and after the whole story was told.
Second…I don’t need to register an opinion on Kubrick before continuing, do I?
Bit o' history:
Gary's not a first time poster. He was once a regular to these parts, and had taken to lurking, posting on rare occassions. He's a part of this board "family" just as any of the heavy posting regulars are.
---Peter
Virtual hugs and best wishes for all those needing them. (cookie [for your ongoing battle], Gary [for your staggering loss and strength of character], Harlan&Susan [may your annointed warriors return with their shields, rather than upon them], and any of the rest of you folk who have expressed deep pain or anguish here recently...)
These little phosphor messengers of my hopes for all of you are inadequate in conveying my profound sense of gratitude that the world has people such as you in it. You are inspirations, paragons and exemplars of who we are as a species. I hope that the joys of your life run deep and strong and your sorrows vanish swiftly, like a morning haze.
Thank you all.
Bern
(out for a weekend celebration of the 16th anniversary of the eldest daughter's natal day... Three friends, one younger sibling, hotel rooms, pool parties, bowling and birthday cake... those who care, pray for me...)
Gary~
Regarding:
{"Jon Stover
Canada - Sunday, February 16 2003 5:29:19
Gary: My condolences. And as I guess you've probably already gathered from the responses, you certainly didn't "drop a turd in the punchbowl."}
Speaking as one who DID drop a you know in this "punch bowl" by way of an intro, trust me, the response would have been QUITE different if you had.
Diana
www.mcsweeneys.net
Gary: My condolences. And as I guess you've probably already gathered from the responses, you certainly didn't "drop a turd in the punchbowl."
Harlan: Good luck on the 6th.
Brian (re Orwell): The review you mentioned is in _The Collected Essays, Journalism and Letters of George Orwell Volume III..._, which Penguin would have been reprinting in paperback into the 1990s. That four-volume set was supplanted by the even-more-complete _Collected_ sometime in the late 1990s. There were (quite literally, I assure you) dozens of these paperbacks floating around in remainder bins back in the late 1980s/early 1990s just in bookstores in Waterloo, Ontario, which suggests you might be able to find one on-line or at a decent Canadian used bookstore even now.
More general copyright: So Canada's numero uno in internet music piracy...that's great. Behold the spin-off effect of creating the world's best national high-speed network (and marvel at Canadian cable companies pitching their service for its ability to allow you to download music faster).
Cheers, Jon
Yes Harlan,
Best of luck on the 6th. If the prayers of an heretical Lutheran count at all-- it's a done deal.
Cindy
Gary:
Thanks for sharing your tale. Words fail us, but you must know we all commiserate on your stupendous loss and wish you the best.
Harlan:
Best of luck on the 6th. We'll all be pulling for you and watching for the results, either here or in the papers.
PAB:
We'll get to "The Hours," but not just yet. I spent many hours today adding stuff to my Web site, not all of it related to my book. Also saw a terrific indie documentary called "OT: Our Town," about the mounting of the first school play in 21 years at Dominguez High in Compton. Marvelously entertaining and uplifting, in the most positive way. Thumbs way up! It's doing the film festival circuit right now, but keep an eye open for a screening in your area, or the eventual DVD.
ALL: addendum to the post below: Make that www.mcsweeneys.net -- even _I_ can be wrong sometimes.
TO ALL WEBDERLANDERS: Run, don't walk (your fingers) over to the McSweeney's website -- www.mcsweeney's.com -- and order a subscription to McSweeney's Quarterly Concern. It costs about $65 for four issues (paperback books, all of 'em; sometimes with a CD included); but, for my money, the first issue you'll get (#10) is in itself worth the money. Designed to look like one of the pulp magazines of the '40s (replete with weird ads), it is edited by Michael Chabon (Pulitzer Prize winning author of WONDER BOYS and THE ADVENTURES OF CAVALIER & KLAY), and contains new stories by the likes of Elmore Leonard, Karen Joy Fowler, Michael Crichton, Carol Emshwiller, Kelly Link, Stephen King, Michael Moorcock, Neil Gaiman, and Harlan Ellison. There's a total of 20 new stories with accompanying art, mostly by Howard Chaykin (the Ellison story, "Goodbye to All That," is accompanied by a black & white version of a Ken Bash painting that inspired it). The cover is a reprint of a painting by H.J Ward, done for Red Star Mystery Magazines back in 1940. 497 pages worth of what appears to be most excellent writing (wont sit down to read it til tomorrow), bang-up illustrations, and great layout and design work. Amazon.com lists a different version (published by Vintage) which may not be out until March. And probably wont include all of the wonderful illustrations and extras that the McSweeney's subscriber's version has in it.
--Yours in information distribution, the man
*** Harlan ***
Regarding your post this morning and the paucity of comments - I can only speak for myself here, but there isn't a day that goes by when I don't think of you and Susan and that lawsuit. I don't comment on it for two reasons.
The lesser of these is that commenting can have the cascade effect depending on who is cruising the board of opening the "what lawsuit? and/or the more annoying let's have a debate where a bunch of people with no law schooling and no copyright background spout their opinions as though their opinions have any weight or merit. I don't think you or Charles has the time or energy to re-educate the newbies and lurkers everytime this comes up. I know I don't even if I had the background. I only engaged in debating this topic early on because of who in particular was doing the sniping.
The GREATER reason is that I remember some of the minutae of the Comics Journal suit such as the "back issue" remarks and how every stupid comment had these ridiculous and protracted legal ramifications so I mostly keep my mouth shut. I asked Charles one question that I thought was fairly harmless by private e-mail and he [pleasantly] reminded me that even talking about certain things had potential legal consequences. So I wait and quietly wish you a swift victory and proper recompense.
I don't expect a response to this but if there is one I will be in DC for the next three days without e-mail access. I'll be back on the board Wednesday.
All our best to you and Susan.
- Barney
Gary:
Words come tough at times like these. You have my comiserations, dear friend.
---Peter
Hey Frank,
What'd you do? I can't find any smiley face-- only a bunch of vile references to Gacey's clowns.
Cindy
FAISAL,
Looks like your buddy Rushdie has a storm brewing again.
I hope all is well for you. Have you gone to Cuba yet?
Cindy
P.A. Berman
I'm looking forward to seeing The Hours too. How many times in life can we watch a film starring Nicole Kidman and say (in all honesty) I'm better lookin' than THAT.
:)
Cindy
Jay wrote;
"So quickly and perfectly did he enter my "old life" that I could only presume it was a sign from...something. You want to feel a little sliver of hell? Imagine your child in the care of someone else, someone they call "dad" or "mom" even if it's a slip of the tongue and watch them drive off knowing there's not a thing you can do to prevent it."
Jay,
I'm glad you got through that one. Aren't you the lucky one on the other side?
The guy that got your ex ended up with a woman who would cheat on her significant other-- which meeeeeeeans he better watch HIS fences too-- or she's liable to jump one when he's not lookin'.
If they'll do it to one they'll do it to another.
The best part is that had she not you would have never found your Pammie. No Colin either-- so it was all worth the pain to come out on the other side stronger and happier and in a more certain position of staying that way.
The ex never deserved you in the first place.
Cindy
HE, thanks for the Shatner reference; I'd heard of the film (my Dad has seen it and raved about it), but have never been able to find it. I will now redouble my efforts, and hope to someday have it on me shelf next to Big Bad Mama and Kingdom of the Spiders, two other (admittedly lesser) Shatner efforts that often get ignored in all the Star Trek dross...
Lynn?
Are you better?
Cindy
Did anyone here see IGBY GOES DOWN? I just finished watching it and I don't know WHAT to think. I heard it was brilliant, soon to be cult favorite, but I don't know. It reminded me of Catcher in the Rye, only with inappropriate beatings and sex. I have mixed feelings. Anyone else have thoughts about it?
Also, David L., I'm still interested in discussing THE HOURS with you when you have time.
PAB
Gary: I tried to post after your first message, but the board was down, so I will now. Your story about your wife brought tears to my eyes. It must have been hard for you to write it, but thanks. I'm so sorry about the loss of your wife, but I'm glad our Mr. Ellison was able to comfort you. It's wonderful to hear that. That's what this board is here for.
"Tears are the sweat of a soul working hard to detoxify"
This is a brilliant sentiment.
Please stay around, will ya?
PAB
Gary,
I'm glad you're here.
Stay.
:)
Cindy
Harlan Ellison~
Regarding:
"HARLAN ELLISON
- Saturday, February 15 2003 14:42:43
n.
HARLAN ELLISON
- Saturday, February 15 2003 14:42:12
DIANA:
Youse is a good kid, and I loves ya, smooch smooch.
But Hemingway is spelllllt with only one "m."
Heels over head, yr. humble minion, Harla(n)"
I love you too, sir.
Both feet on the ground, Diana
Gary -
Words can't...
Gary
In case I didn't make it clear...
There's a reason I related to what you said about speaking your love at all times.
There's a reason I insist on doing that before anyone I love is leaving, even if there just going to buy milk, and even if I haven't said it earlier, and even if we've been carping at each other for hours on end just before that. It's because, as morbid as it may sound to some people, I know I want those to be the last words I said to them. Just in case, and god forbid, they don't make it back home. It's not a matter of making some big scene at a door. And it's not a matter of bad premonitions, and it's not a matter of habit. It's not an obligation.
It is, I guess, a kind of ritual.
I know it's good for you to remember that you DID tell her you loved her, and that she told you. It's got to be. I hope you got to tell her goodbye. But you did tell you loved her. So where ever she went, she knows that.
Bye for now.
Diana
Alex Jay Berman~
You probably already know way more about this than I do but just in case you don't, or just in case you or anyone else might find it interesting, here are the urls for some pages with articles on the use of marijuana as a treatment for epilepsy. There's a lot more information on the subject available.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just learned about this medical use for marijuana yesterday, so it was still in my mind when you posted about having epilepsy this morning.
Bye for now.
Diana
http://www.mmco-scotland.org.uk/medical.php?nav_med=epilepsy.php
http://www.marijuanainfo.org/faqs_list2.php?this_cat=112
http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/faq/23-epilepsy.htm
http://www.drugsense.org/mcwilliams/www.marijuanamagazine.com/toc/epilepsy.htm
Bye for now.
Diana
GARY WALLEN:
I cringe at having written "best to your wife."
Oof.
At I-Con, by all means make yourself known to me. So we can chat for as long as we both remain unassailed.
Besotted with Susan as I am, even channeling the pain of so many of my friends having left recently, I can only vaguely grasp what an anvil lies on your heart at having to live on the lip of the abyss where a wife has gone. Condolences are inadequate.
From the both of us, the best we've got, to the best you can do.
Harlan and susan
Gary: I'm so sorry for your loss, but I thank you for sharing your story. I'm trying to keep my priorities straight these days and your words are a lesson. Thanks for de-lurking.
~Gary~
Regarding:
"We never let our love go unspoken, unhugged, and she urged the same for everyone she knew. So do I"
Absolutely...Rules of the house where I live, nobody I love leaves the property without hearing loves from me. I might have to scream them out of a window sometime (believe me. I've done that)as my son goes dashing off to be a guy somewhere, but I make sure he hears me...
And Gary? Trust me when I tell you that I, for one, couldn't criticize ANYbody for how they choose to make their entry into this forum.
Harlan Ellison~
Regarding the extra "m"
Okay.
Bye for now.
Diana
I know this will also sound like sucking up after the fact, but I put the KICK banner link on my home page a few days back. Today, since our audition advert hit the papers and radio, our hit count went to over a thousand in the first eight hours.
I offer my sword. What else can I do to support the cause?
BOS,
When you said you donated anonymously, I thought it was a way of saying, "Shut up. It ain't classy to brag about shit like that." So, basically, I made an ass of myself by reading your intentions wrong AND replying to it. Someday, I'll try tasting something other than my foot.
And it's a nice head. Honest.
Mr. E,
The reason I didn't respond to CEP's post about the upcoming court date was because I didn't realize it was an important one. I thought it was another drag you in and listen to ya, nod, then send you away. I either misread or didn't fully read the post--if the info was there (I've skimmed the board more than actually read it this past week). Ignorance of the inner workings of the courts is what I plead. Otherwise, I would've said:
GOOD LUCK!
I think that's all. Everything's summed up. I think I'll actually read what I just wrote to make sure everything is spelled right.
It oll luks gude.
Bill
Here; some art for your edification. Jim, BOS, and any other guitarists here should appreciate this guy's work; he's a hell of a carver. And even the nonguitarists should like what he's done:
http://www.carverdoug.com/Guitar.html
(I drool over the Yellow Submarine bass)
GARY: Thank you.
Hard though it may have been and still is, I thank you for what you have told us. I thank you because you have shown us the depth of your love, and how that love triumphed over the pain you and Nancy felt.
And though I feel a little closer to the situation than most, I'm lucky--yeah, I've had a lot of seizures, but they're ideopathic; it's my brain WAVES and nothing physical that cause them. All *I* have is epilepsy.
Gary, your tale was NOT heartbreaking; rather it was heartWARMING. Nancy sounds like a hell of a gal whom I'd have very much liked to have met.
I grieve for your loss, but I celebrate your shared love; your shared courage. You said that you find comfort and release where you may. Well, if you find either or both here on this board, take all you want. We'll make more.
Hi again. This’ll be a long one, and harder.
After the 3-Day walk, Nancy and I sold our home and bought a new one in what our attorney called the most difficult and stressful deal he’d ever handled. On moving day, we completed both closings and, while unloading our rental truck, Nancy had a seizure that briefly paralyzed her left side. The CAT scan in the ER revealed two tumors in her brain. More metastases.
She underwent surgery to remove them and whole-head radiation to put down the stragglers. Then physical therapy to teach her body to walk again, slowly progressing from walker, to cane, to, after months, the ability to discard the cane. We dealt with intermittent seizure activity as her body tried to heal from the surgery. Not allowed to drive, she threw a mail-order Christmas for me that year, 2001, giving me a HERC membership with some recordings, Voice from the Edge Vol. 2, and the Deep Shag ‘On the Road.’
In April 2002 she had another fairly serious seizure. The MRI was inconclusive, it being difficult to pinpoint what was going on as her surgical site healed. But we had to take out the walker and cane again.
Nancy continued to have seizures last summer. Her anti-seizure medication was increased, she took steroids to try to reduce the swelling and morphine to try to control her growing head pain. Scans pointed to cancer in her ovaries, then her liver. When her prescription doses of morphine were no longer helping, her oncologist had her admitted to the hospital, and finally the MRI was clear. She had another tumor in her brain, and this time there was nothing they could do but keep her out of pain. This they did, until the wee hours of August 16, when Nancy slipped away. She was 36.
I’ve been reminded of the blessing HE appended to ‘Paladin’…God be between you and harm in all the empty places you walk. There’ve been more empty places lately. I thank family and friends for filling as many as they can.
I pressed my journal into (hyper)active duty again. I’ve let some of the dust settle, and will be seeing a counselor later this month. I’ve recalled Keegan’s words here, from several years back, on the loss of a colleague: “I let the tears out. Tears are the sweat of a soul working hard to detoxify.” And in December I flew to San Francisco to join my wife’s family and friends and scatter the last of the ashes from her cremation.
I find comfort or release where I may. Dan Simmons’ “Entropy’s Bed at Midnight.” On the Road with HE, I burst into laughter at “’ey man, you d’pope?” Richard Matheson’s _What Dreams May Come_ was hard, but helpful in some ways. I am stunned into speechlessness at the memory of sitting on my front stoop for a warm September sunset with “Terrorists,” iced vodka, and the Mozart Requiem surging out of my living room. For a time, I listened almost compulsively to Tom Waits’ Alice. I hope to make it to my first I-CON next month. There’re a few places that are a little less empty.
I don’t wish to drop a turd in the punchbowl here, a lurker with no background or standing, taking advantage of the hospitality to post a heartbreaking tale to intelligent, sensitive people. I thank you for your thoughts on Nancy’s behalf. I’m hanging in there. Nancy never thought of herself as courageous; she wanted to play her hand for the best game she could. So do I. We never let our love go unspoken, unhugged, and she urged the same for everyone she knew. So do I.
n.
DIANA:
Youse is a good kid, and I loves ya, smooch smooch.
But Hemingway is spelllllt with only one "m."
Heels over head, yr. humble minion, Harla
Harlan Ellison~
I made note of the announcement regarding your coming court appearance in Pasadena. I'm sorry AI didn't say anything, but I didn't understand how important it was. I was aware of your on-going battle with AOL, but only peripherally. For what it's worth, having read your last post, I'll now be there with you, in spirit anyway, on Court Day, and I'll be rooting for you, and waiting to learn what the final decision turns out to be.
Bye for now.
Diana
I must say, as an emetic to some of the bile I aspirated on thee earlier, that the intellectul and philosophical (not to mention entertainment and commonsense) aspects of your last three/four days' postings has been salon-excellent. Very pithy and rewarding chatter, notably about the wisdom of separating one's affection for the Art from one's horror of the Artist.
It is, clearly, only my obsession with Ethics that is keeping me from a salutary suicide, madness, and Posterity.
Damn. I always KNEW I shouldn't've let my Mom and Dad raise me properly.
Wracked with decency, yr. pal, Harlan
Bill: I'm just sitting here, scratching the bald pate (I love the shine I can get on it. Hell, I'd like to find a good polish, you know), trying to figure what you're apologizing for. I merely thought I'd been echoing your sentiment. No apology necessary from here.
GARY WALLEN:
ERIC MARTIN:
BOS--
BOS--
3 BRIEF COMMENTS:
Since we've all expressed admiration for it at some point, I'd just like to note that Cocteau's "Beauty and the Beast" came out in a Criterion Collection this week. New transfer, two commentaries, new and improved Enligh subtitles, a 1995 documentary about the movie, and a lot more. I know where my DVD money is going this month...
These people never talk to me at all.
~Can anyone tell me where the screensavers are stored on my computer?~
~Okay, maybe that whole armed and naked thing would be a little over-the-top, but she gets on my nerves.
Frank Church~
"William Burroughs once said, "Paranoia is freedom." And he's right. I would rather know what's going on than just let MTV and The X Files fill up my head with swill and not dig beneath the surface. If digging beneath the surface and pointing out what you think is really going on is paranoid, so be it.
Brian, you are confused; first, you say you respect both Izzy Stone and Chomsky, but you defend capitalism, which both gentlemen rail against.
Of course, that should be "wear," not "where." The bus station is beginning to rub off on me.
Mr. Loftus wrote:
A brief one, in the midst of waitng for a waxed floor to dry. Yeppers, kiddies, I'm one of those men who does housework too.
I'd like to second Barney's recommendation of Izzy Stone's _The Trial of Socrates_. Well-researched, exquisitely written, and, speaking personally, a wonderful vindication. Y'see, in college, I got into an argument with other students in a course over Socrates.
Hi,
Say, Rick, I don't want to sound ungrateful or anything, but could you possibly design something more colorful and diverting as an error message for us to view every time the board goes down?
Cindy, so no Gacy painting for Valentines?
Wyatt, is it just me, or are the posts breaking off near the end of each sentence? Maybe it is my computer. Maybe I am going slowly batty.
I think we all know that it was a reference to civil disobediance that brought the board down. Excuse me there's a knock on my door... Hey, you can't just come in here, what the fu
Brian,
Beautiful story, Gary. Thanks.
Whatever gets you through, Gary. Good to hear from you, and I hope you'll pipe up with the rest of us loonies more often.
Walking with Harlan Ellison: One Lurker’s Tale
First, let me add my own gushings and thanks for the posts you guys have made about the milieu of madness.
There are 2 things about Stone's book on the trial of Socrates that really make it an important text and very relevant to modern readers.
This sentence below got garbled:
Wow. Unbelievable food for thought here. Thanks to everyone who shared.
Barney~
The "some people" Diana refers to would have been the Athenian senate. If it isn't the first free speech case it's certainly one of the oldest well documented and widely publicized cases we have at our disposal. It's technically suicide in that he was clearly given a choice of hemlock or recanting and he opted for the hemlock.
http://maddox.xmission.com/suicide.html
HEY FRANK!
JAY WROTE;
Hey Chuck,
Chuck
Melissa,
Well since we're all sharing....
Reading in here about different people's experiences with their own and some of their friend's and family member's mental illnesses makes me think about my friend Donnelle, who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. It also makes me think about a movie I saw recently about someone with the disease (A Beautiful Mind")
BOS:
Bermanator:
Regarding:
REGARDING:
All these stories - they ARE amazing, and the people behind them even more so. My own only contact with that sort of thing was when I was pretty much too young to be frightened by it. My mother was and still is a social worker. In Florida, she worked at a "clubhouse" and now, in Pittsburgh, she has started and manages one almost completely on her own. A clubhouse is a place where the more severely mentally handicapped go - instead of being a place where everything is taken care of, and the 'patient' has no personal responsibilities whatsoever, a clubhouse puts a light responsibility on the person.
I should add that I am unworthy of placing my humble story beside those of such great strength and painful labor to remain above the surface of what is a dark, terrifying abyss. Cookie, Frank, Scotty, Brian... thank you for sharing.
"Everybody's got to leave their darkness sometime."
Cookie: Let me add to the chorus: you are amazing and brave. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself. I hope that you are able to harness your demons; I believe you will because your strength is obvious.
David, it's not fair, but there it is. I guess I just don't respect the act of suicide. It generally causes the survivors a great deal of pain and guilt that sometimes lasts a lifetime. It's an inherently selfish act.
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/TheBelovedSon.html
UP WITH MADDOX!!!!
Cookie, you have both mine and Scotty's pity for your troubles. We're glad to hear that you've managed to get through, and please, stay on the meds. They will help.
Lynn,
THESE ARE THE REASONS I LOVE WEBDERLAND;
There goes Frank, risking his life on the highwire again. You're talented, my friend. Insane but damned talented.
Many artists commit suicide because art itself comes from internal pain brought forth. Art is a method of demon shedding, that sometimes fails. Some people crave the abyss more than they crave a human touch. We must deal with that and understand. Fucked up people use art as a healing tool, plain and skippy.
David: thanks.
Gee Whiz, if I'd known that my comments about my depression would spark such terrific commentary-- including some important and personal accounts-- I'd have thought twice about posting them.
Thanks for your story, cookie. I for one am grateful for a little real human sharing as opposed to just opinion-mongering.
Mental illness is such a complicated thing. First of all, you have to *know* you are ill in order to even begin seeking help. That's easier said than done sometimes. There is a degree of denial about mental illness (just as there is with addiction). I'll use a personal example: I was diagnosed as bipolar over five years ago. I was just desperate after years of periodic crushing suicidal depression and periods of inexplicable out-of-control behavior. It wasn't like I couldn't hold a job or anything: to the contrary, my work as an artist and educator is the ONLY thing that gave me (or anyone else) any reason to care. The psychiatrist put me on Paxil, but it made me crazy: pushed me over to the manic side so far I felt like I was tripping. I didn't try meds again for a long time. I preferred alcohol.
"However, I do have a question to throw out to everyone: at what point is a mentally ill person incapable of free will? Do mentally ill people who commit suicide have a choice? If so, can they be judged based on this decision? Is it morally reprehensible to dislike a person whose behavior is unpleasant b/c they are mentally ill? Or maybe the person's unpleasantness and mental illness are unrelated? How can one tell? I was thinking about this today b/c of DTS's question and I couldn't quite decide."
I should comment that my casual diss of Ms. Woolf had nothing to do with her mental illness. I suggested that suicide might invalidate a writer's work. That statement is all that's open to criticism, as far as my contributions to this thread are concerned; I made no judgements or calls on mental illness, and I frankly resented the implication that I did.
>about how all her heroes were actually screwed up. <
Cindy~ Getting there. Not a 100%, but getting there. Think I'm gonna bail on the second half of the day here. ::sniffle:: Thanks for asking. How's your hearing? Coming back still?
In a bit of odd coincidence, Jill Sobule was singing a song on West Wing last night called "Heroes," about how all her heroes were actually screwed up. There's a line, "William Faulkner, drunk and depressed/ Dorothy Parker, mean, drunk and depressed," with further commentary about The Beatles, etc.
Lynn,
PAB WROTE;
David castigated:
Zoë: I think you've already read it. That, and I don't have your address handy (it's at home). If you want to read it again later, email me at home and I'll send it from there.
George Orwell had some interesting things to say on the art/life of the artist thread that's now weaving through here. "Benefit of Clergy: Some Notes on Salvador Dali" is in _The Penguin Essays of George Orwell_ -- I'm not sure what a comparable American collection would be.
Since the subject of Hitler's paintings has come up, has anyone seen the new John Cusack film, "Max"? I'm still catching up on other movies that opened in Portland before that one, but knowing how pedestrian some of AH's surviving paintings are, I was intrigued that the trailer suggested a Jewish art dealer goads/encourages the struggling artist to attempt more abstract, expressionist material. . . .
Quick, somebody: What was the book that came out a year or so ago with essays by various journalists about significant stories of theirs which got smothered, censored, killed? Vidal wrote a foreward or preface, and we discussed the book briefly here. I read it four or five months ago and I can't remember the title or editor!
BRIAN,
CHUCK - Whew. I was sitting at work, thinking as hard as I could (this was /after/ 8am, so my mind was clicking along a little better) and still couldn't come up with who the heck that was. Well, I feel much better now. :) And yup, Lynn's got it right with the dots over the 'e' thing. Except it's not an umlaut, funny enough. That's German, I believe, and the name is Greek (it means "life", just a neat little tidbit). The dots are actually called something else, the phonetic spelling of which is "die-ear-uh-sis". I know someone gave me the true spelling sometime last year on this board but I can't find it right now.
Brian~ Whenever anyone mentions Hitler's paintings, that is *precisely* the scene I think of.
Re _Glen or Glenda?_ I rented that one (when I was sharing an aparment with a pre-op transsexual who did _not_ want to watch it), and I was actually _favorably impressed_. Why? Pretend that Ed Wood wasn't the guy who made it. Pretend that the cheap production values don't matter. What you have notice is that _Glen or Glenda_ is a surrealist film that has the virtue of being genuinely heartfelt. And with several bits-- the clips of Bela Lugosi ranting, the prancing devil at the marriage-- Wood manages to rival Luis Bunuel. I'd stack it up against _L'Age D'or_ anyday.
"I haven't been able to relocate the post where someone disdained "The Hours" because Virginia Woolf was such a dislikable character, BECAUSE she was mentally ill. I suspect it was Eric, and I've found your attitude on this point almost offensive, Eric"
Cindy wrote:
Bad Movie: Try "Glen or Glenda". That was the funniest and most pathetic drag film I've ever seen. Scott got that one, along with "Bride of the Monster".
Sgt. Pepper... whoo. Thought I'd forgotten that one. Next time, just tuck a bloody bobcat carcass in my bed if you want the same reaction.
Here's some dialogue for a remake of _Forbidden Planet_:
So today my local news bobblehead shows me how to duct-tape plastic wrap over my windows in case of terrorist attack. There was an actual demonstration where this line was spoken: "You want to make sure to tape it securely to the window so no air can get in or out of your home." The anchor then quickly corrected: "You certainly don't want to do this for a prolonged period as you do not want to suffocate."
Isn't it wonderful that science can give meaning to such a wonderfully poetic phrase as "oldest light in the Universe?" That's what NASA's recently photographed; they've released the results of a survey of background microwave radiation.
Alex, I can go you one _better_ in the horrible film sweepstakes.
FRANK, JAY: MANOS? I sneer at your MANOS: I saw Olivia Newton John's XANADU (poor Gene Kelly ... poor, poor Gene Kelly) in first-run. My retinae are thus inoculated against High Badness.
OH LYNN!
Hey Jay!
Thank you, Cindy. I appreciate your kinds words. Now all I have to do is find someone to buy the damned thing. Oh yeah, means I have to shop it around, huh. I tell ya, no one ever told me that the writing of the story would be the *easy* part.
Brian, Frank...
Chuck,
*** DTS ***
LYNN,
The umlaut isn't over the o. It's over the e.
Chuck wrote;
Cindy,
COOKIE WROTE;
Suicide, alcoholism, and the arts. Let's add mental illness.
What about the words of the soul that was so sensitive, so alone, so distanced from humanity that their own life was not worth living? Do you not ever wonder what their journey was like? Do you not wonder what pressure Hemingway bore that was so great, not even his grace could survive it?
>And aesthetic beauty and artistic truth are not invalidated by creators who were drunkards, spouse batterers, child abusers, fascists, or anything else unholy.<
LYNN: Thanks for the URL: I'm gonna get a copy of that book. AlEX K., ERIC, D. LOFTUS, R. WILDER, P.A. BERMAN and JOHN G. -- Thanks for your help and contributions as well.
Frank Church~
DTS, Hart Crane jumped off a ship and drowned. His last words are reputed to have been, "Bye, everybody!" I've never checked to see if this is a true story; I'm afraid the reality won't be as entertaining.
In response to:
> prose writers, poets, screeenwriters and playwrights that have committed suicide<
Frank,
Chris:
My Faulkner prof at SUNY Bingo (Finder knows him) told us that Faulkner likely died as a result of withdrawal from alcohol-- that he was trying to quit and it killed him. Sad. Not suicide, but sad.
DTS: Kawabata and Mishima committed suicide. I believe Richard Brautigan did, also. And if one equates drinking to death as suicide, you've got a mighty big list (Faulkner, Thurber, Kerouac, Hammett...)
Chris,
Both echinacea and goldenseal have antibiotic properties, so you should take a full course, not just stop taking them when you're feeling better. Also, you should avoid taking them until you get sick, not take them everyday to "boost the immune system" as some brands advertise.
* winner, of course I meant *winner*. urrrk!
DTS--not a truly world famous author, but I was told that Scott Sommer, the author of a couple of nice novels like "The Last Resort", "Nearing's Grace" and "Hazzard's Head" took his own life. And the Prometheus book mentioned Mishima, but my probably faulty memory suggests another Japanese author, possibly a Nobel winnder, might have also done this--though not in Mishima's style.
Alex Jay, good points, especially about an immortal Batman. I could only hope that he'd stay the same Batmensch that goes out of his way to avoid killing his prey---otherwise the Joker would last about as long as it takes to pull a trigger.
DTS~ It seems you're not the only one with such a morbid interest.
ALL: Knowing that many of you are as eccentric and even morbid as yours truly, just wondering if I can get some input on something. It's regarding the identity of prose writers, poets, screeenwriters and playwrights that have committed suicide. Off hand, I can think of Virginia Woolf, Ernest Hemingway, John Kennedy Toole, Ann Sexton, Jerzy Kozinski, Sylvia Plath, James Tiptree, Jr., Mark Rothko, Michael Columbus...but I can't seem to think of any others at the moment. Just thought I'd tap into the gestalt mind of Weberland and see what bubbles up (this is morbid I know, but if you happen to know of other names, any mention of the method of suicide would be helpful, too). Thanks in advance folks.
Frank,
Rob~ You'd like it. It's spectacular to look at, and silly too. And it has the Red Elvises who I firmly maintain are the *cure* for depression. It is impossible to be in a bad mood while one is listening to the Red Elvises. (They're your typical Siberian Surf Band, for those who are wondering.)
PA~ What did Spirited Away get nominated for? I *loved* that film. It's out on DVD in April and it's the only DVD I have anxiously anticipated.
Hi, Lynn
Chris: Did you see The Hours? Or Far From Heaven? Or The Piano? Or Spirited Away? I thought those were also exceptional. And that's quite a list, considering the aridity of years in the recent past.
Brian, Manos, The Hands Of Fate should be watched in small doses. The bots and Joel alone can't spare ones eyes from such a travesty of film badness. Yikes.
Chris, it's not that the Oscar picks are bad, it is just that the picks are obvious and boring. Except for Bowling and the amazing Gangs Of New York, I see the Oscar picks as pretty conservative. But I bet you love the fact Chris that Spielberg got screwed on the nominations this year; even though Minority Report is head over heels greater than dreck like Chicago.
Lynn,
To Jay: No, not the _Mitchell_ set. This is the second 4-DVD set they've done. The first contained _Catalina Caper_, _Bloodlust_, _The Creeping Terror_, and _Skydivers_. This second one contains _Pod People_, _Cave Dwellers_, _Angels' Revenge_, and a collection of short films.
PAB,
Video spree: just bought Lone Star, Cinema Paradiso (for the wife, VH Day), and Man for All Seasons.
Hey! We had a snow day today, so I slept for about 12 hours and I feel drunk on the nectar of Morpheus. Whoo hoo.
Rob~ Have you seen "Six String Samurai"? Just curious what you think about it.
Brian,
Ellison v. Robertson et al.
Brian,
Last night I blew a hundred bucks on DVDs: Cocteau's _Beauty and the Beast_ (finally, the remastered version on Criterion), Richard Lester's _Three Musketeers_ movies (finally, a remastered version from Anchor Bay), and the second _Mystery Science Theater 3000_ collection.
Chris,
Chris,
David:
Melissa wrote:
ZOE ROSE,
Hey Lynnie!
FINDER wrote;
John G wrote: "I've often thought that one of the bastardizing effects of episodic TV on all sorts of other works is that you almost have to disregard your observations and *not* allow the characters(or the gross characteristics) to change based on events. Don't damage the franchise."
Finder,
JAY: Yeah, we have the same gusts here.
Cindy,
Cindy, Jay - I'm keeping one eye open for the 2003 48 Hour Film Project info - only a preliminary city list so far on their site, with the promise of an official list to be "announced soon". If I spot anything before I see it mentioned here, I'll chime in.
CHUCK -
To Whom It May Concern
Hey, guitar fans and art fans (fossil fans, too)!
Rob,
Chris,
Chris,
PAUL: Good to see you! In an odd coincidence, I was just thinking of carnivorous plants, as gardening season's coming soon. Thing is, only the cool-weather type of pitcher plants would survive my garden's temperature range, so I've pretty much given up on it. I AM, however, thinking of getting some lithops ("Living Stone") for my desk at work and for the sill. They're just too neat, you know?
**You MAY have a kick-ass character that serves as the fixed point of the story (which is the type you're talking about) - whose function is precisely NOT to change (the basis for regular running tv series). You'd have a helluva time, however, doing every story centering around this character without transformation in other characters. Otherwise, you fall into what is called a formula. **
Zoe,
Chris,
Zoe,
**But what does remain a constant for me is character transformation (bearing in mind there are many ways to present such progression or transgression)....Thus, I am more often drawn to the question of how much a person can change given a set of events; human beings really only change in nature or their world view by necessity. **
Mel: When I said "it's old news," what I meant was... the past is very much left in the past, not like "oh, your apology is old news." It came out wrongish when I typed it (I am overtired and should be in bed right now). Anyway, here's what I really meant to say, and all I should have said:
Melissa: Thanks for clearing that up. It's really old news, but it's nice to receive an apology, and I accept it 100%. There's no need to revisit it, and think no more of it. I, on my side, apologize for any hurt I caused you or Scott.
David: Bad news. "Passion" wasn't aired tonight, having been pre-empted by the Canadiens post-game show, I'm sorry to say. I'll listen again tomorrow night, same time, same channel.
Paul saith: "who gets creeped out at the thought of a man-sized sundew?"
David:
Diana,
My apologies. My post should be directed to Alex JAY.
Mr Ellison~
Alex J,
Rob and Chris---if I may jump in here:
Frank,
Eric
CINDY - Sent an e-mail your way. ;)
To Eric Martin
Sweet sufferin blimey, you all are a chatty bunch of hens.
Paul:
Oh, and Rick? Thanks for the link to me old eBay listing, even if it's embarrassing me to no end. Folks, I'm definitive proof of what happens when a person started collecting "Alien" stuff in 1980 and doesn't realize how far out of control things got until 2002. I'm also proof that, contrary to popular opinion, regular and repeated moves don't help you get rid of the crap in your life. Only the love of a good woman will do that, and Caroline has managed to break me of the junkstore/comic shop/toy store habit in a way that still amazes me.
Gotta second the kudzu story here. The story in question is "The Lonely Death of Jordy Verrill", and it, like "The Crate", existed as a short story before it was adapted to film. Either way, the gunk growing through our protagonist's body always reminded me of moss or mold instead of kudzu, but in a town where black mold has taken over most of the houses in the area, that's scary enough as it is.
CREEPSHOW...no, not a "good" movie, but a fun movie. Highly recommended. Sometimes, fun is more important. Especially when everything seems to be coming unhinged.
Diana, this kinder, gentler approach is being singularly undermined by the cover page of your new message board, which is reprinted Webderland screeds against Cindy and me.
Diana,
DIANA:
Jay: Things are going well, considering it's tax season, and Scotty and I are about to enter into our annual attack on that blind and arrogant leviathan, Revenue Canada. Scotty takes most of the tax burden, and I get all of the credits. For the most part it works well, except for the three or four nights needed to decode the forms, and put our receipts in their rows.
Hi...
Lil' Washu,
Washu~ Maybe just dropping the 'Lil' part? ::grin:: I don't really care one way or another, but you've been using the handle here long enough (and signing your posts as well), I think of you as both.
Washu - I personally dislike handles on boards where most people aren't using them. I'd only do it if I felt it was important to cloak my real name.
Washu,
Webderlanders, I'd like to ask your mature opinions on something I've been pondering myself for a considerable amount of time.
ROB,
MEL!
As long as you're exploring every aspect of this subject, Diana, you (and everybody else here who hasn't) need to check out the marvelous comic strip by Doug Marlette called "Kudzu."
A bit of a change in thought: I'd like to make love to the husband, at the end of the universe.
Hello, in for a moment. Scotty's busy, slowly growing annoyed at the beancounters who seem to insist that all the popcorn eaten by people who frequent the rink be accounted for down to the last kernel. They complain because he won't use the pseudobutter, instead selling the real thing on the corn (the money for the butter comes out of Scotty's own pocket). One of these days you're going to read about a bureaucrat being run down in a mysterious zamboni accident.
XANADU - Thanks for the info! I'd not read the comments section, to be honest, so didn't know of ANY of those complaints. I'll look into it further... if I wait and keep saving maybe I'll be able to afford the "new-n-improved" when it comes out. I'm in no hurry, yet - don't get kicked out of California until May-ish.
I have an piece on immortality, but since really long, rambling posts annoy me, I will spare you the same from me and refer you to the web page if you are interested.
Diana,
Zoë Rose: About the iBook. In a word, Don't... (By-the-by, the subject is just a musing on my part - no editorial comment implied...)
Diana: You've basically described the plot of Wagner's story, so you may already have read it.
Alex Jay,
Jon
Rob,
IMMORTALITY, INC.: Though some may find it distressing, the first question for me would not be, "How do you live?", but rather, "Who do you make DIE?"
Chris,
Chris,
"KEEP THOSE BARD STORIES COMIN'PLEASE!
**No. Just a preference of mine...so long as great character development is the result.**
Diana: Karl Edward Wagner wrote a horror short story about kudzu entitled "Where the Summer Ends." It appears in the _Dark Forces_ anthology edited by Kirby McCauley and in Wagner's short story collection _From a Lonely Place._
Cindy,
JON, CHRIS , ROB
Harlan:
PROBLEMS WITH FILTERING BY IP ADDRESS:
Chris,
Interestingly, I have your friend with the ankh hanging on my wall right now, as part of a fun little illustration for the Vertigo X anthology coming out. She's serving beers, Tim Hunter and Molly are sharing a pint. Morpeus and Daniel and Black Orchid are hangin about, Spider Jerusalem is looking pissed; hell, it's just a great little piece that has many more people from 10 years of Vertigo.
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN
AAAAGGGH!
Rick:
Rick:
Rick:
XANADU-
In fact, since Bresson is the one often credited with being "anti-plot" a look at one of his most famous films, A Man Escaped, is enlightening.
Rob,
> The problem with all those shows is that the Exec on
It's definitely audio, guy. Here's some of the more relevant excerpts from the Amazon listing:
Harlan's posting problems: I realize I'm out of my league on this stuff compared to some other people here, but I did think of something simple -- would the computer timing out and off the internet during the writing of a lengthy post cause exactly this post problem? I'm going to the lab in the Fortress of Solitude to find out...
Immortality--Sooner or later you get around to pig-fuckin', after that it's all downhill.
DAVID LOFTUS:
Eric~
>What do you do with your time<
THANK you, Lynn.
David:
Immortality: The Final Frontier.
Eric, just answer the question. ::sheesh:: You've been cursed with Immortaliy. Death, the little cute brunette that wears the ankh, wants nothing to do with you. Maybe she met you at a party or something. So now you have the rest of eternity to sit around and contemplate your navel (or your manners over an hors d'oeuvre tray). What do you do with your time?
Chris,
>Immortal. As in ageless AND indestructable. Completely immune to Death itself in all of it's forms<
THE IMMORTALITY QUESTION, AGAIN:
To Faisal: Great to hear from ya. Only advice I can give is "Don't do an uncritical, ass-licking documentary about Fidel Castro," because Oliver Stone's already done one.
Hey, Harlan:
Bit of a frightening thing just happened.
I guess "kill-free" isn't the right term. It should be a "prosecution-free" zone. In any case, it's important we advance such legislation as soon as possible. If the makers of Kangaroo Jack aren't terrorists, who are? We must eliminate their source of funding now.
Yeah, Brian...
Jason,
Scotty -
Sorry, Jay, not I: father-in-law bought me one a few years ago. Only superhero I'd ever given a damn for.
Greetings from the land of the revolution. Checking in to see all is well and may hopefully enjoy my stay over here. Also, cheaper to send a postcard and rarely go on holiday so need to boast.
Re Li'l Washu's immortality question.
I've only time for a quick post before heading off to class, so...
Here's an odd item. Over at Roger Ebert's "Answer man" column, someone asked about a clip from _The Newlywed Game_ that turns up in the film _Confessions of a Dangerous Mind_. The clip has Bob Eubanks asking a couple about 'the oddest place they ever made whoopee,' and the bride replies, "In the ass."
HEAR YE, HEAR YE, WEBDERLANDERS:
So much for possessing the legendary Green Lantern Power Ring. At least I can say I helped push up the bidding. I had a budget of about seven week's beer money which is hardly equal to the value of a ring with one partner in the hands of Ellison. But it's not happening. Bravo and kudos to whoever wins it. I hope he or she is from this board. :)
David - I had a professor who, during our History of the 60s seminar, credited the speech to Ted Sorensen - but I've never found anything to support the claim.
And as a grunt in field, I'll state that most users are limited in their understanding. That's not the problem. The problem arises when someone refuses to acknowledge *MY* expertise and allow me to assist them by *TEACHING* them how to do a task, be it advanced or simple.
>They have to deal with sophisticated technical issues, but they have to answer to executives who have no technical expertise.<
Oh, I could go on at length regarding Alex Krislov's post. That's because I do administrative office work, and we tend to feel the brunt of the technology "revolution." Let me see if I can give y'all a sense of what it's like in the trenches.
Faz baz! That's "The ALPHABET of Modern Annoyances," not "Dictionary." Misspellings are one thing, getting a title wrong, quite another. The book is great bathroom reading, by the way. And, yes, that's meant to be a compliment.
Damn good article on AOL and file-"Sharing" on Salon.com today. Drop by http://tinyurl.com/5m4x to read it.
To all who answered re: eBay:
Word of the Day:
Lynn:
David~
Chuck:
LONEGUNGIRL,
Xanadu, I guess you care more than I do. As a computer professional, who has worked with numerous operating systems and vendors for almost 15 years, this "Microsoft is the antichrist" movement is both bewildering and tiresome. Bewildering because there are so many other companies ouot there that are so much more deserving of public venom (Exxon, Monsanto, Dow, etc),and tiresome because MS generally makes good products that have revolutionized how we handle information.
EDWARD --
Bern - Did I mention that Gates is providing the final-day keynote address at the trade show the boss is sending me to in New Orleans in March? Personally, I'm more stoked to hear what Ted Turner has to share (he's keynoting Day 1, but they typically toss out softballs at these kinds of functions), but for this? I may need to find a bright, shiny Apple pin for my lapel...
"Stories and a picture (sorry, no perverts--it's just an aerial photo) at these Ozzie newspaper sites:"
Rick
Jason,
To Whom It May Concern
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html
Also, DIANA, as the text right above the submit comments boxes says: "Anything resembling an HTML tag will be summarily destroyed."
ANDREW --
OKAY. Since Diana has served notice that she'll continue this in the same vein, that even if I shut down the board she'll be there the day it comes back up to stir the shit up again, I'm asking the rest of you.
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html
Lil' Washu:
Diana, lemme ask you something. Let's say, just for the moment, that I were to announce that you were right, and I was wrong to simply ignore your notes, and that Cindy (or Lynn or whoeverthefuck) is a thoroughly evil human who feeds dogshit to orphans and harvests the hearts from neighborhood dogs so she can rub the meats into her armpits to attract mates.
I was thinking about the Columbia and the exploration of space. Then these words came to mind. They have always inspired me:
Hey Jason,
XANADU: While I may loathe Gates' business practices, they pale next to the robber barons' of yore. Gates never hired strikebrekers whose job was to break strikers, never engaged in arson where his competitors' plants were, and never paid cops to open fire on striking workers (the last not even by a 19th-century robber baron, but by Ford at his Dearborn plant in '32). Not defending the man; just adding some perspective to the parallels drawn.
Eric: You asked, "Microsoft was a bad company?"
Diana
Rob
CHRIS and CINDY and anybody else with a remote interest:
Xanadu, that was quite a history. I'm not sure what you're trying to say...Microsoft was a bad company? Seems to me they were pretty successful.
What follows is not for the faint of heart, it is NOT a neccesary read, feel free to skip right on past...
Lynn-I find it almost impossible to bid on items I can't take a look at--that's really the best advise. The rest of previous advise is also right; ebay has too much crap, and seeing really is believing (however misguided that may be) in this case.
Lynn--I fully agree with everything Eric said about selling on eBay. Good advice.
Lynn-- eBay is awesome. My recommendation is to scout around to see if other people are selling items that are similar to yours, and what they're going for. Set your opening bid at a price that is the least amount you'd be willing to accept for the item. That way, you won't feel bad about letting something go for less than it's worth to you.
Cindy -
ERIC:
(Delurking for a moment) "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" is a great documentary! It deals with the Funk Brothers, the musicians who were the backup band behind just about every Motown hit. I just saw it this week, and it made me want to stand up and dance in the theater. I didn't remember seeing anyone mention it on the board, and I just wanted to give y'all a heads up. If this movie comes to your town or you see it in the video store, CHECK IT OUT! It's great!
Lynn, as a seller, Paypal will charge you, but it's a courtesy for your buyers to offer this service on an auction site. Expecting buyers to go to the bank to get money orders is last century. You can of course take personal checks, but then you wait for clearance, and buyers will pester you during the lag time.
Lynn,
I mean, the times I've stubbed my toe always made ME want to tear off the head of the closest bystander for the first ten seconds or so...
Be sure to give us a heads up on what's going there. I'm sure you've got a lot of cool swag. My advice is to set up a PayPal account if you haven't already. Bidding is higher on items payable thru PayPal or BidPay. If you don't have a rating over 10, maybe purchasing a few things from PAUL [paultriddell(1)] will convince those folks bidding on shrunken heads of missing bureaucrats that you're trustworthy and worth the risk of sending cash. Just don't screw with my GL RING! It's mine...it is my precious!
Has anyone here ever sold anything on eBay? I've got some garage selling to do (apartment living and no garage to keep my crap in). I've been pondering this for some time now, and if anyone can give me some advice as to how to go about this, I'd be most appreciative.
Jason, thanks for the most excellent link. While they did not currently have exactly what I was looking for (a fairly decent copy of Billy Taylor's Evergreens, or some of Sinatra's Capitol issues), they had so many other yummies like Chico Hamilton that I'm sure I'll be visiting often.
Guys? Harlan said to leave 'im alone for a while. We all can do that.
Rick
JAY,
Jason,
CHRIS and CINDY:
ERIC:
To all that have:
Either that or he's gating Nyarlathotep.
F%@&ING GODDAM MUTHERLUNCHING APESHIT-GARGLING SCUMSACK DEGENERATE RUNNINGSORE DISCIPLE OF A PUTA PENDAJO CAWKDRAINING
Cindy!
Jay,
Colorful metaphoric phrases aside, Harlan, a question (I know you answered this before, time ago, but I forgot. The only thing that sticks is your computer is a laptop.): What do you use to compose? I personally use simpletext, then run it through the usual paces for misspellings and the likes.
RE: Bill Gates.
Uh...help?
**F%@&ING GODDAM MUTHERLUNCHING APESHIT-GARGLING SCUMSACK DEGENERATE RUNNINGSORE DISCIPLE OF A PUTA PENDAJO CAWKDRAINING
Anyone know of any good online old music sites, where you can buy out-of-print LPs, etc?
BRIAN,
Remember: a man isn't bald; his head has evolved into a more streamlined design which reduces wind resistance, therefore saving energy consumed in forward propulsion.
Well, apparently the hawks have been scared a bit by a overwhelming number of doves:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/15/sprj.irq.protests.europe/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/15/sprj.irq.protests.main/index.html
I'm reading that over a million turned out to protest in Rome, and that across the world the turnout has never been higher to protest a nation's actions. Reports are trickling back to me that the US and England are now retreating from their "war at all cost" urgings, to draft a more cautious declaration, one that will slow the headlong rush towards conflict.
Personally, I'll believe it when I see it. But, it will make Mel a bit more happy. She took Danny to the demonstrations held at the Peace Tower.
BOS
HARLAN ELLISON
- Saturday, February 15 2003 14:1:13
Thank you. My pleasure to have been of some use. Best to your wife. Come again, soon.
respectfully, Harlan Ellison
HARLAN ELLISON
- Saturday, February 15 2003 13:49:38
As you--and likely everybody else on this continent--know, I am hardly a fan of William Shatner. Read my book.
BUT...
You can attribute his long-term high-profile and "success" to a dogged and one might conjecture monomaniacal perseverance. It's no less than dogged, relentless; never rests, never flags, never sleeps. The codifying of Shatner's dedication to his career has but one salient metaphor: The Terminator.
BUT...
If you ever want to see what the Talent Shatner COULD have been, somewhichway get your hands on a videocassette of the 1970 PBS presentation of THE ANDERSONVILLE TRIAL, as directed by George C. Scott. Shatner essayed the role of the Union Army prosecutor in the courtroom trying Richard Basehart's Confederate Army stockade commandant. Shatner was, and it pains me to have to say this, no less than breathtaking. First rank performance, with virtually NONE of the heavy-breathing drapery-munching tics and crotchets that Kevin Pollak so brilliantly mimics.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Bill Gauthier
New Bedford, MA - Saturday, February 15 2003 13:37:37
Can't post again on the other board...
Point taken. It was meant out of silliness more than anytmunching tics and crotchets that Kevin Pollak so brilliantly mimics.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Bill Gauthier
New Bedford, MA - Saturday, February 15 2003 13:37:37
Can't post again on the other board...
Point taken. It was meant out of silliness more than anything but you're right, it was crass and doesn't mean a helluva lot. All I can claim is, "It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Sorry again.
ON DEACONS...
Funny, I just reread "Scartaris, June 28th" last night. I'll try to have my mother tape it for me. I don't get Showtime.
Hanging head in shame,
Bill
HARLAN ELLISON
- Saturday, February 15 2003 13:18:3
1. Frank Church, please stop the asides to Diana. She told you where to visit to continue this silliness, so if you must, then do it on the designated battlefield. Even with one of those disingenuous smiley-face emoticons, it is -- please admit it to yourself -- an unwarranted roiling of the uglysoup.
2. For many years, when I would buy a painting or illustration done by my lifelong friends Leo & Diane Dillon, whether a general piece or something that had been executed for one of my books or stories, Leo & Diane would not let me pay them for the original. That bothered the hell out of me. And so, sometime early in the '60s, Leo & Di responded to my increasingly strident demands to pay for the goods, with instructions that I should send donations in whatever amount I thought proper, to a group based in Louisiana. The Deacons.
The Deacons were black men and women who had decided not to take any more shit and lynchings from the Ku Klux Klan, and the money they received bought guns. Then, when the fucking idiot Klansmen would ride out in their stake-beds and pickups, of a moonlit night, insensitive and stupid and suicidally arrogant to the simple tactical reality that a white sheet makes a real sweet clear target, the Deacons would interdict the impending rousting, harrassment or lynching by lying in ditches alongside the back roads and, with incredible ease, pick off one after another of the white scumbags. The Dillon's art, and my love of it went a long ways to making the world a better place, in a small humane way.
This Sunday, tomorrow, 8:00 pm, Showtime. DEACONS FOR DEFENSE starring my favorite actor, Forest Whitaker. Don't miss it. I have no idea if the movie will be good or otherwise, but it is a piece of modern history, and limitless courage, that should not pass unnoticed for those of you who consider yourselves worthier than those who will settle for WHO'S HOT? or AMERICAN IDOL.
Tomorrow. Sunday. Showtime. 8:00. DEACONS FOR DEFENSE.
3. Speaking of things of importance that seemingly go unnoticed CEP's posting of the upcoming 6 March oral arguments before the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals is a momentous and (for me) life-changing moment. The KICK Internet Piracy lawsuit hits the Big Time. It was posted here among you, and got less attention than your idle ruminations re the latest fleeting Marvel Comic movie adaptation. For those of you who came in late, folks, THIS is the day and the event I've spent three years of what's left of my creative life waiting for. This will tell us whether I'll lose all $312,000 of my 30-year-amassed nest-egg, or will win the case against AOL protecting all those writers and writers' organizations who haven't lifted a finger to aid me. (Those whose fingers HAVE been lifted may divorce themselves from the bitterness I'm expressing. You know who you are.)
But that it wasn't even commented on, in the lee and wash of the trivia that is tsunami high here day after day, draws a weary exhalation from my flagging spirit. No comment on this bitter vetch need be entered. I return you now to your scheduled programming.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Joseph J. Finn
Chicago, - Saturday, February 15 2003 12:35:19
http://tinyurl.com/5vzx
recil <recilc@hotmail.com>
Berkeley, Ca US - Saturday, February 15 2003 12:24:9
Do you suppose its the cock-ring?
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Saturday, February 15 2003 12:22:20
Diana
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Saturday, February 15 2003 12:12:4
Diana~
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Saturday, February 15 2003 11:58:9
Regarding:
"Brian, you are confused; first, you say you respect both Izzy Stone
and Chomsky, but you defend capitalism, which both gentlemen rail
against"
But can't you respect someone you disagree with? I know of a pastor of a church in New Jersey by the name of Charlie Rizzo who comes to mind as an example of someone I disagree with on many things, but who I respect. He's a very smart, funny guy. He had a radio call in show at one time (maybe he still does) called "Let's Reason Together" where he'd field bible related questions. Whether you agreed with him or not, he was always ready willing and able to show *reasons* for his faith. He answered people with logic, respect and humor.
Speaking of logic, respect and humor (or a lack thereof) and folks representing their faith, I just had a visit from my "friendly" Jehovah's Witness and her posse. I once told her to stop coming 'round on account of I worshiped Satan and my dark master didn't want me to talk to her anymore, but nothing phases this woman. She's one of the many reasons I'm against gun control. I'm wondering if going to my door stark naked, shoving a rifle in her snout, and screaming obscenities at her in pig latin would get her to finally leave me alone?
Bye for now.
Diana
Frank Church
- Saturday, February 15 2003 10:51:40
That sounds more like vigilance than paranoia.
That's for you to decide. The more I start regurgitating suppressed information, the more I will be labeled paranoid. If we had a more paranoid country, we wouldn't be allowing ourselves to be run by such idiots today."
---Jello Biafra
Frank Church
- Saturday, February 15 2003 10:46:43
Again, Dangerous Bill
New Beige, MA - Saturday, February 15 2003 10:42:59
B.G.
Bill Gauthier
New Bedford, MA - Saturday, February 15 2003 10:41:42
"Say, Rick, I don't want to sound ungrateful or anything, but could you possibly design something more colorful and diverting as an error message for us to view every time the board goes down?"
I'm wondering if a pic of Mr. E flipping the bird is around to post with the legend: CORDWAINER BIRD HAS SEIZED CONTROL. PLEASE COME BACK LATER AND TRY AGAIN.
Or something like that.
After ranting in the Dining Pavilion, I wondered, "Does an internet pirate where an eye patch and say, 'Harrrr!' everytime s/he steals a song/story/movie?" Just an idle musing...
Bill
Ow, that hurts.
BOS
- Saturday, February 15 2003 10:39:22
Gary: Thanks for the tale. One of those anecdotes that affirms that, while this earth and its denizens can be a shithouse, it's still worth the time.
Dannelke: Dammit, you all are trying to drive me into the poorhouse! Not only that, but the foundation is starting to creak noisily under the increasing weight of purchases made on yours and others recommendations...Knock it off will ya?
BTW, police trying to undermine your free speech rights? Smear chicken blood over your doors, and then tell the police that it's the lifeblood of some person taken from a firstborn of whatever nation the US is supposed to be hating this week, to pacify the legions of Ashcroft. If I'm correct, claiming it's from a Frenchman or Iraqi should do nicely. If that doesn't work, start playing albums fron Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons at an extremely loud volume.
Axis of Evil club: What are the membership charges, and do we get cool t-shirts we can wear in front of the onrushing hawks? Just want to look spiffy if I can...
Enough for now. Convincing dog and small child to keep off hardwood floors is now required. Hope everybody got what was coming to them on Valentine's Day.
BOS
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Saturday, February 15 2003 9:45:21
I'd said that Plato's _Republic_ was just a recipe for fascism, and while the dialogues of Socrates were fun to read, they were effectively worthless as far as any _real_ philosophy was concerned. This wasn't what the prof wanted to hear, so he called me into his office, and said that I obviously had personality problems, and not only should I drop the course, maybe I oughta get counseling and leave the university. I didn't do any of these-- in fact, I tore the drop-add slip into confetti and tossed it into his face in front of the class, and made myself a Major Presence in subsequent arguments. Years later, I read Stone's book, and had the immense joy to realize that I'd actually been _onto_ something. Stone did it better than I ever could, of course.
To Faisal: My address is 4321 Larchwood Ave., Philadelphia, PA 19104.
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Saturday, February 15 2003 9:35:36
I hope everyone got/gave some extra loves for Valentine's Day. Kisses, hugs, smiles, candy, flowers, affectionate glances, pot roast, & perhaps some nice earrings. Signs of love...
Barney
I've been reading up a bit on Socrates, thanks to you. Even with some little knowledge (a dangerous thing) more than I had a few days ago anyway, I'm still wondering what conclusion, if any, you came to about how it was, why it was, he was condemned to death. I've found even more support for your offering Socrates as an example of suicide. From what I've been reading it looks like he may well have goaded the juror/judges at his trial, into a sentence of death. They didn't just gang up on him and not give him a chance to offer a defense. But it looks like Socrates may have had a serious "attitude". For example, after he was convicted, when he was asked what he thought his sentence should be, he apparently said, among other things, that he thought he should be rewarded with free lunches from some popular public eatery of the day. (basically he said he thought his sentence should be that he got a coupon for the ancient Athenian equivalent of a life time supply of Big Macs, fries, and vanilla milkshakes) This kind of response, although funny, didn't sit well with his olden times jurors, no more than it would with modern ones. Socrates wasn't asking for mercy, and it certainly looks to me, from what I've read so far, like he may have had some kind of death wish.
I'm finding it all very intersting, and I wanted to say thanks for giving me something new (ancient) to learn more about. Bye for now.
Diana
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: glitches, - Saturday, February 15 2003 9:27:47
Frank Church
- Saturday, February 15 2003 7:38:58
Kiss, kiss...
Frank Church
- Saturday, February 15 2003 7:28:17
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Saturday, February 15 2003 6:27:15
Faisal A. Qureshi
San Antonio, Cuba - Friday, February 14 2003 22:47:27
Send us your mail address for a patented invite to the Axis Of Evil club. Also, agree with you concerning Glen or Glenda.
Best.
FAQ
cookie
- Friday, February 14 2003 20:58:23
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
Philly, - Friday, February 14 2003 6:37:43
Thanks for the smile you gave to my morning.
(and give our love to the wife)
Gary Wallen <n_gwallenatyahoodotcom>
Worcester, Mass - Friday, February 14 2003 6:28:30
In the summer of 2001, my wife Nancy and I walked in the Avon 3-Day Walk for Breast Cancer. Nearly 60 miles, over three days, from San Jose to San Francisco. We chose the SF 3-Day because it was where she grew up.
Training for the walk as a challenge, as Nancy was herself undergoing hormonal therapy and chemotherapy for metastatic breast cancer – after local occurrences and treatment it had reappeared in her lungs and bones. We walked together as much as we could, five and six mile walks, trying to stretch them longer to build our stamina. Sometimes when we completed a loop back to home, she’d be bushed and stay to rest, but encourage me to push on for more if I was up to it. I’d bring my Walkman and The Voice from the Edge, Vol. 1. I rode ‘Laugh Track,’ ‘Grail,’ ‘Jeffty is Five,’ and the rest, to thirteen mile walks. Still not as long as training walks should have been, but the miles melted under my feet, hearing “She’s alive!! She’s alive!! And she ain’t asking where’s the beef!!”
Training was further complicated by a numb area on Nancy’s left leg – such a neuropathy was a possible side effect of her chemotherapy. Being a pianist, she preferred this to numb hands or fingers.
A friend agreed to participate in the event with us. The three of us raised over $10,000. Come the event, we walked every step of the route, through heat, blisters, and neuropathy, never needing to be picked up by a sweep van to get to the next rest stop. This accomplishment, and the support of the volunteers and 3000 other walkers on all sides, was life-changing. More importantly, in light of our circumstances, I should say life-affirming.
And I kept cracking up whenever I thought, “She’s alive!! She’s alive!! And she ain’t asking where’s the beef!!”
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
Philly, - Friday, February 14 2003 5:50:6
(And yes; I call it "madness," because my own feeling is that to be a better referent than "mental illness;" in some ways, madness can be a creative boon, if a personal hell. Illness, however, does not sound to me like something which can be harnessed and put to use. My sincerest apologies if my phrasing offends.)
But I have to wonder: Am I qualified to speak on this? I honestly don't know. A little over a decade ago, my father had a nervous breakdown and was diagnosed as bipolar. Since that time, he has only exhibited large-scale symptoms (other than the occasional depression) once; unfortunately, this event came smack in the middle of our big family reunion in Orlando. Believe me, you have not lived until you have carried--forcibly and bodily--a sixty-five year-old child out of the Men in Black ride aty Universal Studios. As for me, I may well have the curse (albeit in a much more mild form)--but if I do, I'm not aware of the depressive side; it's likely the same way with me as it is with pain and cold: I know they're there, and I can feel them on an academic level, but I don't really FEEL them; I just don't pay any attention. Mania I know, though, though it isn't very often readily noticeable. Years of "covering," working to fit in and be more liked back in childhood and the teenage time have effected a sort of masking effect with me. I try--though no longer consciously--to show what's going on inside if said goings-on might prove embarrassing.
Pardon the facile manner in which I toss this off; as I said, if I DO have this--and I may not really show it until much later in life, as with my dad--it's an extremely mild case.
Still worrisome, though: My biggest fear in a life with very few of them is of my mind betraying me. Pretty funny for a guy with a treatable though incurable brain disease, but there you go.
Again, I thank those whose posts have gone before for laying yourself bare about your own symptoms, experiences, and problems. Though it's nothing to be ashamed of, it's a scary thing to reveal or even think about.
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Friday, February 14 2003 5:45:37
First, if you read that particular book you can save yourself a fair amount of classical reading about things like love of boys and young men being the "best" kind of love and physics and chemistry that is best looked upon today as a sort of wishful thinking. What Stone gives you is a real complete understanding of the dynamic tension within the state about what a nation-state ought to do for its citizens and what, perhaps, a citizen was obliged to do for his state. Of course citizen vs. non-citizen status is something that SF fans think Heinlein invented but it's one of the great debates of Greek [and Roman] culture.
Stone lays out how the Athenian state was different from anglo and later American conceptions of republic. All of this is very important to the readers understanding of the trial of Socrates because the tendency is for the modern reader to want the trial to be about particular things and the trial of Socrates tends to frustrate that desire upon close examination. It's a historical image that works best as metaphor.
Kind of like how nobody wants to know that the author of CIVIL DISOBEDIANCE spent even less time in jail than Johnny Cash.
- Barney
cookie
- Friday, February 14 2003 1:8:38
"It [Lamictal] helped me through a couple of horrible personal events that caused me to try and quit drinking two months before I actually did. "
Sorry.
BTW: I still really want to quit smoking. My therapist said to wait until I'm back on the meds. Good advice, I think, since I quit for 48 hrs at the New Year and was pretty much ready to kill myself and everyone else.
Addiction sucks.
cookie
- Friday, February 14 2003 0:56:26
My illness is very hard on my family, but not to the point where they are endangered, though it has come close. Like PA said, it's hard to know when it's the disease talking. Like Lynn said, I'm learning to listen to others around me when they tell me I'm getting whacky. I used to be too proud to admit I was losing my grip. I thought they were full of shit.
My husband is supportive, but he has limits. It took getting arrested to quit drinking for good (I hope). It will take STAYING quit to stay married. I have pushed this marriage to the absolute limit and this guy is still kind, loving, considerate, and concerned for me. THAT makes me want to get to the root of what turns an otherwise decent, smart person into an arrogant bitch or a sniveling mass of depression too scared to commit the suicide she thinks she wants at the time.
I first began having problems with depression when I was 14. My people don't hold much by head shrinkers. My (osteopathic) doctor told me that I was depressed and that it might have a biological basis: either PMS or something deeper. No meds were prescribed. I was given bone manipulation and sent home. On the way, my mother said, "I don't think you're depressed. You're just a bitch."
I have a long history of periods of crippling depression. I always said I was just an intense person: I'm so much more sensitive which is good for my art blah, blah.
Well, as you already know, it eventually spiraled into threatening not only my life but my livlihood. I had to be coaxed into trying the medication---a relatively recent therapy using the anticonvulsant Lamictal. I can't tell you what a miracle it was.
I do believe that some people use mental illness as a cop out and I *do* believe that some professionals make incorrect or inappropriate diagnoses. However, in my case, I think I found the right medication. It's not like the medication changed my personality, I'm just not living in the extremes of my personality when I'm on it. I can, and did, cope with bipolar illness unmedicated for years. It's just that it's less taxing to deal with it when I'm on the Lamictal. Even though I was drinking heavily when I began taking it, it made a difference. It made me able to accept the mess alcohol had made in my life. I through a couple of horrible personal events that caused me to try and quit drinking two months before I actually did. These were events, that had I been unmedicated, I believe might have actually spurred me to suicide. As it was, these events drove me to drink to the point where I didn't think I could stop and I actually made the radical step of calling another musician who is a recovering addict. It took getting arrested to make me really get with the program, though.
Anyway, I accept the diagnosis of bipolar because a)it fits the pattern of my life 2)It was diagnosed twice by two different doctors five years apart 3)when given the "right" medication, the symptoms improved.
I can be tough and do it without meds, but it's truly dangerous for me. After a lifetime of struggle, I'm willing to accept help. I used to be too arrogant to think I needed it.
Finally: Chuck: thanks for your story. I can relate.
I am really LUCKY, or maybe blessed, that I'm not dead. I should be dead several times over.
And I'm not done hoein' that row yet....
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Thursday, February 13 2003 23:54:6
Regarding:
"It's technically suicide in that he was clearly given a choice of hemlock or recanting and he opted for the hemlock"
Yeah, okay, if he had a choice, then it was suicide. I didn't know about that.
I'm gathering from the rest of what you wrote that Socrates said things that the powers-that-be didn't want him to say. He must have said it a lot, and said it in public, and some people must have been listening to him. He must have been influencing them, bringing them around to his way of thinking. I'd guess he believed he was right too, and prefered being dead to copping out. He must have been convinced that what he was saying was pretty important too, to have chosen to take the hemlock rather than taking back whatever it was he said.
Of course now I want to know what he was saying that was so objectionable, and why it was considered to be so objectionable, and what would have happened if he hadn't chosen A or B. But that's all really beside the point.
Diana
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA - Thursday, February 13 2003 22:28:31
Probably the best book on the topic would be I.F. Stone's THE TRIAL OF SOCRATES. It's opening section is a wonderful explication of terms like democracy and republic as well as an examination of how different Greek thought was from modern western thought on a number of key topics. It's not a quick read but it's easier than Chomsky or Barzum on any given day.
Charlie Petit might have more to say about this. Or not.
Currently taking a Twain break and reading the three novels by China Mieville - KING RAT, PERDIDO STREET STATION and THE SCAR. Oh my, this guy is GOOD.
- Barney
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, SOME OF YOU WON'T THINK THIS IS FUNNY (But it is) - Thursday, February 13 2003 22:19:1
Hi.
Depressed? Thinking of killing yourself? Check out what Maddox has to say about suicide before you make any rash decisions (like deciding to live)
Diana
http://maddox.xmission.com/suicide.html
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Thursday, February 13 2003 21:57:24
WAKE UP!!!!!!
Do you see what time it is in Texas?
Know why I'm up so late?
BECAUSE OF THE CLOWNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;)
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Thursday, February 13 2003 21:55:13
"Cindy...read your email. Sent you some notes. Laughed my Kabuki off. Thanks. Yesterday was crappy. Dealt with a quartet of strippers who god must be punishing. One looked like someone hit her in the face with a belt sander, another had multi-colored theatre rope welded to her scalp and eyebrows put on in crayon. All of them looked like they hadn't eaten in weeks. They wanted business cards with their pictures. Yeeks. I would have sympathy, empathy, any sort of positive-athy toward them if they weren't four of the most obnoxious, arrogant and stupid people I've met in a while. "
Glad I could be of service, Jay,
:)
Damn-- I'd LOVE to see a picture of your four goddesses. I got alot out of the description-- especially the crayon eyebrows and belt sander face.
LOL!
:)
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Thursday, February 13 2003 21:50:48
I am glad they put the shells behind the counter back then.
There aren't enough good guys around that we can stand to lose even one.
Especially not you.
:)
Cindy
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Thursday, February 13 2003 21:41:31
(and whoever else...)
I have a belief that some of the so called mental illness we see so much of and hear so much about in the world lately, may be something else entirely. I think some this illness anyway, may simply be the result of us living unnatural unhealthy lives.
I'm not talking about the truly mad, like my friend Donnelle. I'm talking about people who're fairly regular healthy people, who're trying to function in a world that their just not built to function in.
This is an idea I have. It's kind of unrefined, and unformulated at the moment, so I'm not up for expounding on it, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to learn that there are other people who've got a more scientific and advanced understanding about this.
I read a science fiction story a long time ago that was about these people who lived in this enclosed environmentally controled world. Their feelings were regulated by drugs. Most everybody was doped up daily, it was just S.O.P. Of course there was a mix up of some sort at some point, and this one guy ended up not getting his proper meds or something, and he began to have all sorts of problems which ultimately resulted in him getting kicked out of bubble land. Which turned out to be a good thing.
Anyway, I don't want to recap the whole story, but I think it should be obvious where I'm going with this. It seems to me that things may be beginning to shape up to something similar in the real world of late. It seems as if, in order for many people to be able to stand this modern life, and to function in it, they need to be drugged. Whether they drug themselves or go to a doctor to be drugged "properly", they still need their dope in order to be able to stand their lives.
Like the problem's with THEM, instead of an unnatural system.
Okay, to be honest this is more than just an idea I have. I believe this is true. I feel it's true. I intuit that it's true. I grok that it's true. I experience this as reality.
I guess the main reason I'm even bothering to share this idea is because I'd like to offer some comfort. I want to say that maybe at least some of you guys who're thinking you're a little crazy, aren't "crazy", or ill at all. Maybe it's not you.
Of course this doesn't apply to everyone. There are others that most likely need to have a net dropped over them.
Bye for now.
Diana
Chuck
- Thursday, February 13 2003 21:0:57
I own a copy of Robot Monster, which came with 3-D glasses. The 3-D effect is more what I call Blurry Vision. I just LOVE the title character's soliloquy.
My nominee for at least ONE of the worst movies of all time? When I was but a youth, a bunch of us kids went to see a horror film fest dubbed as THREE HORROR HITS. What it was, was an Al Adamson film festival. Being dragged over broken glass and bathed in lemon juice would have been kinder. We sat through all three: FRANKENSTEIN'S BLOODY TERROR, HORROR OF THE BLOOD MONSTERS and DRACULA VS. FRANKENSTEIN. I'd say the third was the most painful of the three. Not only did it suck so badly all the litter in the theater was being drawing toward the screen, but it was painfully dull. It also was the last film of J. Carroll Naish, a fine character actor, who by that time was confined to a wheel chair. He played the scientist who hooked up the jumper cables to the monster and started him up. Whenever he spoke, his dentures rattled and clicked.
The film also contained the last performance of what was left of Lon Chayney Jr. Decades of acholhol abuse and cancer didn't leave much by then. He played a mute, dazed, stumbling underling of the scientist. I don't think he was acting. I felt dirty just watching it.
That's what got me interested in Le Bad Cinema. I just wondered how the hell any english-speaking, bipedal humaniod lifeform could produce something that bad.
Chuck
Chuck
- Thursday, February 13 2003 20:46:36
Cookie,
That really was a moving account of your bout with Bipolar. It's not at all unusual for people with similar problems to self-medicate. Alcohol, narcotics, what have you. You had one tough row to hoe and you did it, no whining and no quitting. You are one brave lady.
I'm going to paste in something I wrote to the Webderland a year or so ago. Those who read it before can use the scroll bar. Those who haven't can also use the scroll bar, if you wish.
Why would anyone contemplate suicide? There are several reasons, but I will tell you about my own flirtation with the Dark Place. In 1996, I was laid off. I figured I'd be out of work for a few months, Uncle Sam would help me over the rough spots, and I'd
hardly get my hair mussed. Also, I suffer from clinical depression which is kept mostly in check with medications, which, without medical insurance, is very expensive. I was out of work for a year and a half. I was making payments on a car, and that was a major burden for someone without a steady job. The job situation was so bad, I had a hard time getting
temp work. Long story short: I was financially ruined, my overly optimistic estimate of my chances of getting a job didn't play out. My creditors were howling at the door, the electric company was threatening to shut of the lights, lawyers were calling me at home, and then when I finally took a job at sixty percent of my previous pay, they were calling me at work. they just KNEW I had some equity somewhere. I made good faith payments.
They got even worse. My father gave them a sizable chunk of cash. They got worse. I had gone six months without the medication that keeps my brain in chemical balance. Let
me tell you what it's like. Sometimes you're dead inside. No enthusiasm about anything.
You're a cypher. You know you should feel something, but nothing comes. You just wander through life, rudderless, apathetic. Then there are the other times. It feels a little like there's this horrible, clawed thing inside. It twists around, biting, clawing, stinging, tearing you apart from within. Drinking doesn't stop it. Sleep, if it comes, is only a temporary respite. Rodney Dangerfield did something about the deadness, which he called the Heavyness. It would be there when he woke up. It would say, "You're gonna get it good today. You're gonna be drinkin' EARLY." Given my situation with my creditors, the
thing with the claws make more and more frequent visits. I became bitter at the whole world. We'd all be better off dead. I looked upon death as an out. An option. Finally, one day I decided to buy some ammunition for my 20 gauge shotgun, which hasn't seen any ammo since Gerald Ford was in office. I wasn't going to use it right away, just have it there for a rainy day. When I went to the local sporting goods shop to buy my 'exit visa', I saw the ammo was kept behind the counter at the firearms department. How things had changed. I had to ask for the ammo. I hesitated. How would I ask for this? I pretended to
shop around at the holsters and fishing lures. Finally, I got up the courage to walk up to the man at the counter and ask for a box of 20 gauge birdshot. He asked me what I wanted it for, probably wanting to know if I would be shooting traps, or birds. I mumbled something I don't remember, and walked out.
Eventually, I declared bankruptcy (which I hated), got a raise and used my health plan to get back on my meds. Those were the
blackest days I've ever experienced. I know I made some colossal mistakes with my finances, without which my problems would have be a good deal less. This ain't a pity party. I just wanted to convey the feelings that can lead to thoughts of suicide. I'm not
sure I did a very good job, but I'm in a bit of a hurry. I'm feeling okay right now, and I'm listening to a bit of the old Ludwig Van. The ninth symphony in D, op. 125. Ludwig is taking the mood up a notch or two. Ode to joy. Let it play in your mind. Hope this messy note helps.
Chuck
And that's it.
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Thursday, February 13 2003 20:7:20
What I see in Donnelle, because she's trying to deal with her madness, is fear and confusion. She can't trust her own perceptions. She can't be sure if what she's seeing, who she's seeing, what she's hearing is real. I can only imagine what life is like for her, having to deal with that. I don't think I'd be be harsh to judge anyone dealing with what she's dealing with, if they maybe decided it was too much. I'd rather she didn't commit suicide, but I guess I could understand why someone might be driven to such desperate measures in such a condition.
In the movie, A Beautiful Mind, the hero eventually ends depending on other people to tell him if he's "seeing things" or not.
They do their best to show what he went through, and in trying to show that moment when he finally got it that he was crazy. But that guy was blessed. He had some back up. He had people he ultimately found he could trust to look to for checks when he needed them. He knew if his wife told him those people he thought he saw weren't really there, that he could believe her that they weren't really there. Not everyone's that lucky.
On the other hand, a friend of mine killed herself because she'd had a fight with her boyfriend. That was it. That was her reason. She was drunk, and hysterical, and she killed herself. Her brother found her body. He goes down into his basement to do some laundry, and there she is on the floor dead. I still sometimes feel like I wish I could bring her back to life for awhile, just so I can tell her what a shitty thing I think that was for her to do to her family and friends.
And then there was that asshole woman, Phil Hartman's wife. She wasn't happy just offing herself. She had to take her husband out too. What a bitch.
Or am I being too harsh?
Diana
P.A. Berman
- Thursday, February 13 2003 18:49:8
Yes, I agree with you-- the person is more than the disease. However, I think in endgame, as with Virginia Woolf and my mother, you don't know half the time if it's the disease or the person talking. That's when things get really painful. Your point is well-taken; perspective is important.
PAB
BOS
- Thursday, February 13 2003 18:26:20
Your point regarding unplesantness and mental illness is well taken but with a caveat. Yes, we struggled at times with Joel, but there were many times my brother, in living with us, was happy and at peace. We helped him to decorate his room, tried to give him the space I felt all folks, be they ill or not, need. We did get reciprocation and appreciation for the help Mel and I gave. It wasn't all adverse moods. Perhaps it's also the love for my little brother that colours my judgement of him.
Jay: Never belittle the pain life can hand us, or compare the amount against the suffering of others. I believe that at the end, we pretty much wind up even, when it come to wins and losses in life. I don't know what you or any other has been through, and so I don't quantify. I just hope all who come here to offload a bit of it find folks who'll listen.
BOS
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Thursday, February 13 2003 18:13:9
(by Zoe Rose)
"In reality, I just take things very seriously - both when they go wrong and when they go well. I'm not and have never been diagnosed with bi-polarism. But many times people...are very eager to say "Well THAT'S why..." And that bothers me"
What she said.
Diana :=)
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, REFORMED "GOOD" DIANA AGREES WITH ERIC (& OTHER STUFF) - Thursday, February 13 2003 18:1:44
"...aesthetic beauty and artistic truth are not invalidated by creators who were drunkards, spouse batterers, child abusers, fascists, or anything else unholy"
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" (or "Whatever lifts your skirt")
As I've been reading of your thoughts on art forms, aesthetic beauty, artistic truth, drunkards spouse batterers and other things unholy, I've been thinking of Sam Kinison, Ernest Hemmingway, and Lenny Bruce. I consider them to have been artists bent on expressing their own perceptions of Truth. I expect they could be described by some people as having lived lives unholy. Am I wrong in thinking it was, at least in part, the very process of them expressing their "lives unholy" that so many people enjoyed?
Sam Kinison didn't kill himself. (The jury's still out, in many people's minds about Lenny Bruce) Sam Kinison reveled in living a life unholy. He was notorious for it. Famous for it. Drinking, doping, homophobia, (medically incorrect humor) politically incorrect humor("Kill the homeless"), anyone who knows anything about him knows how he talked about(and treated with) women.
I think I'm less qualified to express myself on Lenny Bruce. I read his autobiography, "How To Talk Dirty and Influence People". I've listened to him on tape, I've seen him in action on film, I've read what many many people have written about him, but he was doing his thing and dead and gone before I ever became aware of him. I can say rumors have it that he lived the low life, dealt hard with many of the women in his personal arena, and died from an overdose of a drug he'd been using for years. He was infamous for the use of "obscenity".
I'm even less qualified to express myself on Ernest Hemmingway, but wasn't part of his appeal that whole man-among-men, hard-drinking, hard-living persona he had?
I don't think any of these men are remembered fondly for being good boys. I don't think that takes away from any appreciation of their art.
AND YET...
I have to agree with Eric where he wrote:
"... how many people would hang around this board if it were found that Harlan Ellison did heinous, unholy things in his basement?"
"A lot of the draw to Ellison, judging by the posts I've read on this board, is the man himself, his attitudes and positions"
(Yes, and he's pretty too)
I think the answer to that question is maybe hundreds. But if it were to be, "found that Harlan Elllison did heinous, unholy things in his basement" (I've heard rumors by the way) he'd be drawing a whole *different* crowd.
Something else Eric said that I agree with:
I too see suicide as most often being a cowardly and selfish act.
Signed,
"Good" Diana 0:=) (See? I'm smiling, and I have a halo)
Barney
Regarding:
"
Oh, and Socrates.
Have a nice day! :-)
- Barney Dannelke"
Didn't people make Socrates kill himself? or am I mixing him up with some othr Greek philosopher?
Signed,
"Regular" Diana :=)
Zoë Rose
CA - Thursday, February 13 2003 17:34:41
I do the concept no justice because I don't know all the aspects of it, but it's an incredibly challenging and incredibly GOOD program.
The only other input I have into the subject is perhaps negative - I think many people are too quick to volunteer to be, or diagnose others as, some kind of mental disease. An acquaintance in college would continually tell me I was bi-polar because of my moods. In reality, I just take things very seriously - both when they go wrong and when they go well. I'm not and have never been diagnosed with bi-polarism. But many times people (especially, it seems to me, around high school and college age) are very eager to say "Well THAT'S why..." And that bothers me.
-Zoë Rose
Jay Smith
- Thursday, February 13 2003 17:27:40
Jay Smith
- Thursday, February 13 2003 17:25:32
Before Pam dropped into my lap like a Playboy Bunny tossed from a parade float through my bedroom window, I was pretty much convinced I had been replaced. I felt I had lost my shot because my then-fiance decided it wouldn't be a good idea to try and raise our son together and, in fact, she found a newer, sleeker model at work to test drive.
So quickly and perfectly did he enter my "old life" that I could only presume it was a sign from...something. You want to feel a little sliver of hell? Imagine your child in the care of someone else, someone they call "dad" or "mom" even if it's a slip of the tongue and watch them drive off knowing there's not a thing you can do to prevent it. So I sent my son home at the end of the weekend, kicked off a case of cheap beer and locked myself down in my basement apartment writing shitty little poems that one usually finds only in the diary of junior high goth chicks. All this anger was introverted. I went to work totally passive. I tried to get into life and my family tried to help, but it really just didn't work.
So I picked up this copy of "Angry Candy" and some loud-mouthed guy who, up to that point I'd only known from his opinionated bits on a cable Sci-Fi show and read the introduction. I'm not sure what exactly clicked and set off a string of reactions, but it helped. It helped in a "get up off your lazy, dopey, stupid, fat ass and make something 'cuz, brother, if you don't...ain't nobody gonna stop by with balloons, flowers, a box of chocolates and hand you a big oversized check good for one Clue" sorta way.
Not to say it handed me the answers on some cosmic crib sheet. It just reminded me that I've got a long time to death if I'm lucky. There's no way out. There's not the luxury of passing anonymously into the void because there's this little kid...this wonderful marvel of nature, an innocent of such grace that it would be criminally and morally negligent of me to corrupt it.
It took a long time, but I stopped drinking myself stupid and ignoring people in the world. I still have problems, but I'm lucky the clouds don't darken or the shadows lengthen in what is, to everyone else, a bright and cloudless day.
P.A. Berman
- Thursday, February 13 2003 16:42:21
I do feel enormous sympathy when I hear about the pain suffered by artists like Jimi Hendrix, Ernest Hemingway, and of course, Mr. Faulkner. I do not think less of them because of their illnesses; rather, I feel sad that their muse has to hurt them so. I'm sure I'd feel the same way about Virginia Woolf if I knew more about her.
HOWEVER, at the same time, I have perhaps an even greater sorrow for the people like Leonard Woolf, and Scott, who have to watch the people they love disintegrate, when they are helpless to save them.
Scott said: "Unpleasantness has nothing to do with being a schizophrenic or manic-depression."
At the risk of incurring your ire, I have to disagree. Unpleasantness is a very real, if only surface, part of mental illness. I worked the front desk at a mental health clinic for 4 years, and I saw all manner of people suffering from all manner of things (not to mention the people I know in my personal life). The flat affect, the lack of empathy, the irrational rages, the funks, the crying, the brooding, the paranoia. These things are unpleasant. Knowing where they come from does lend some perspective, but there it is.
So it's really undeniable that mental illness *is* unpleasant. Just so you don't think I'm bigoted, for the record, so is cancer. My mother died of it and it was hard, hard, hard to watch. It did not ennoble her at all; to the contrary, it made her bitter and angry. Nothing I could do could help her (or please her); she was throwing blame and rage around all over the place, which made the whole ordeal even harder, more alienating. I tell you this only to illustrate that it is not only psychological suffering that leads to wounds on the bystanders. The line between the disease and the person gets blurry, that's all.
If you love someone, as Leonard obviously did Virginia, you try to cope with it, but for me, as an audience member, I feel so bad for Leonard and wished, for just a minute, that *his* pain could have mattered to her as much as hers did to him (***in the context of the movie--this is not a commentary on their real-life relationship, about which I know nothing***).
But clearly I'm projecting a bit onto this. Forgive me in advance for any offense you might take at my words. I'm just trying to tell you how The Hours made me feel, in my own roundabout way.
PAB
Eric Martin
- Thursday, February 13 2003 16:15:20
We all know that life sucks most of the time, and that it's sometimes a struggle just to get out of bed and face the world, the creeps, the cruds, and the inevitable death that's lurking around the corner anyway. But that's the battle, and we're all a part of it.
I should qualify my resistance--I dearly love the poetry of Anne Sexton, and she killed herself. And what a loss it was, to her family and lovers, of course, but also to the rest of us. Selfish Anne! How could you?
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Thursday, February 13 2003 15:38:8
Hello Again,
Just in case anyone's interested, the url above and/or below will take you to a page with a couple of photos of my son (aka The Beloved Offspring)
Believe it or not, and contrary to the impression one might get from all the grumpy pics of us, we both smile. But, also, we both come out looking wierd when we try to fake it for the camera.
If you go see the pictures, you'll see that, obviously, I doctored the second one. He was trying to look spooky and fierce in that one, so I thought I'd help him along a little.
Sincerely
"Good" Diana
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/TheBelovedSon.html
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Thursday, February 13 2003 14:45:17
His page is about him and why everything he likes is great.
If you disagree with anything you find on his page, you are wrong.
http://maddox.xmission.com/pseudo.html
http://maddox.xmission.com/pseudo.html
Diana
Melissa Reeston
- Thursday, February 13 2003 14:10:55
Melissa
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Thursday, February 13 2003 14:9:39
My ears are better every day!
Thank you!
:)
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Thursday, February 13 2003 14:8:0
When ever I get an opinion about something I know little about you all tilt the mirror and show me things a different way.
Cookie,
That was amazing. Let me re-phrase that YOU are amazing. I am so grateful to you for that post it sheds light on how common this problem is and how brave those are who challenge it. Your honesty is inspiring.
Don't forget we're here when you need an ear.
Cindy
Lynn,
What a remarkable soul YOU are as well. You are such a powerful personality-- so centered and so grounded that no one would guess that you struggled with anything.
You know where I stand when you need a friend.
Cindy
Scott,
I am so sorry about your brother--that is such a sad thing for you to live with. This helps explain why Mel is so close to your heart and why you love her so.
Cindy
Brian,
You know how important you are to all of us! If you need to rail against the world or if you require some emotional support-- you have only to holler.
Cindy
Frank,
You SICK SON of A BITCH! What kind of MONSTER would DO THAT TO A FRIEND???????? Now I have those fucking Gacey clowns in my head again.
THAT was ARCH, Frank! Fuckin' ARCH.>
I might not get OVER it!
:(
Cindy
Lynn
Subj: Sharing - Thursday, February 13 2003 13:30:31
Cookie~ Thank you for sharing your story. It does make a big difference to those of us who struggle from time to time. Makes me even more thankful to have such a strong support structure myself. And makes me fear my art a little less. Which is, ultimately, a good thing.
I hate the depression. I get the lethargy, the concrete in the bones and the blood, the apathy, and feeling as if it takes too much energy to breathe. I hate it and I fight it. And the mania, I've learned to manage a bit better. I've taught myself how to focus and refocus, and how to temper the bitter edge when it gets too much. The best skill I've learned is to watch myself, objectively, and through the eyes of people around me. They seem to be a pretty good gauge of how well I'm holding together. And when it gets bad, I know. The phrase around our house is "not fit for human consumption" and we nurse each other through it. And I count myself lucky for not having to be medicated. I went there once, and let's just say I didn't like that fuzzy, muddled vision of myself.
L.
Frank Church
- Thursday, February 13 2003 13:5:52
---------------
Cindy, I like Gacy's art, because it does cool the blood. This is what I adore about art sometimes. Art should question everything--even sanity. I even like some of Manson's tunes. Deal with that sweet knees. ;-)
-----------------
Hope you all caught the Dennis Miller, Donahue debate last night. Miller has turned into a raving war monger. All my hero's are falling down the drain. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
--------------
Oh, so we put down Spielberg but defend Eddie Wood? You goofs have the stones, I must say.
cookie
- Thursday, February 13 2003 12:58:6
This line stood out when I read your response to PA:
" Of course it's only human to alter one's opinion of the ARTIST; I do that all the time. Whenever I hear that a rock star has run afoul of drugs (e.g., Townsend and Clapton with heroin), I lose a little respect for that person."
I respect that reaction and know for a fact that it's happened in my case. That is one of the reasons I'm trying to face my illness and addiction: because I cannot make any more professional, artistic, or personal progress if I don't take responsibility for my problems. I have lost respect from some quarters because of my poor decisions.
However, when I read about an artist with addiction in their past or present, instead of losing respect, my reaction is to feel a profound sympathy. I don't respect them *more* for their problems (that's like folks, including myself who romanticize the "suffering artist" and feel they need to shoot up to play like Bird or sing like Lady Day), but as I said before, I try to take some sort of lesson from their lives. Maybe that's just because I identify.
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Thursday, February 13 2003 12:52:4
First, some short bits. To Jon Stover, re Orwell's essays: There are many editions of Orwell's essays available here in the Sattes, but the Everyman's Library recent published a nice, thick hardcover of selections from the Complete Orwell that came out a few years back. My only objection to this collection is that it doesn't include his review of Hayek's _Road to Serfdom_, which I'd like to read someday.
Okay, now to Cookie, whose post was remarkable and well worth reading. Anything I'd add about my comparatively minor problems'd sound pretty self-indulgent. In fact, it's testimonies like Cookie's that persuade me that my own problems are manageable. For one thing, I've never had a problem with drink or drugs-- some indulgence of herbal relaxants, but that's about it. As for bi-polar problems. I just don't seem to get the "manic" stuff that'd make the "depressant" stuff a trade-off-- in fact, I'd _love_ to have a few manic days so I can get motorvated on stuff.
I don't mean to sound flip about Cookie's struggles; I'm just comparing them to mine.
As for suicidal ideation-- as I said, I don't get it very often. I _could_ get into it. But my atheism, refusal to believe in religion, and utterly _black_ sense of humor has _helped_ me to _avoid_ thoughts of suicide.
Still, I have to find some way of managing my black dog.
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: art and behavior, - Thursday, February 13 2003 12:38:59
To Eric and Berman -- I'm not reading carefully enough of late, I admit. Far too busy and harried, these days -- play rehearsals four times a week, trying to hustle more bookstore appearances and media coverage for my book, waiting to hear whether any graduate schools are willing to draft my sorry ass -- but mostly enjoying it. Sorry I haven't been taking quite as much time to study your posts as I should.
I'd really like to respond to your post about "The Hours" at length, PAB, but not in the middle of my workday. For now, just this:
PAB wrote:
> So I guess Eric is not the only person whose opinion of
> an artist is affected by knowlegde of the artist's personal
> life. It's only human.
Of course it's only human to alter one's opinion of the ARTIST; I do that all the time. Whenever I hear that a rock star has run afoul of drugs (e.g., Townsend and Clapton with heroin), I lose a little respect for that person.
What I was questioning was the ease with which Eric was ready to dismiss the ART because of knowledge about the artist, which is something else. That is also human, but I say it's not fair.
cookie
- Thursday, February 13 2003 12:24:4
Long story short: I became an alcoholic and my bipolar illness worsened over the years. I got to a point about a year and a half ago where I finally went to therapy because my behavior had gotten so out of control. I was spending money hand over fist, I was hanging out in bars every night, I had a few boyfriends, and I couldn't stop smoking. I mostly went to therapy because I couldn't understand why I can't stop smoking even though I make my living with my voice and am beginning to feel unhealthy.
Bi-polar illness was diagnosed yet again. I did not want this to be true. I really thought that the previous diagnoses was bullshit. I was in complete denial. Meds were prescribed, but it took two more months of therapy before I agreed to use them. One thing I was scared of was that meds would effect my creativity.
I needn't have worried. The meds didn't take away my feelings or leave me emotionally flat. I felt stuff, but my feelings seemed more appropriate and in tune with reality as people around me seemed to perceive it. Artistically, it effected my creativity for the better. Being less crushed by my emotions allowed me to do more focused, thoughtful work.
And I was still drinking. Until I went on the meds, I had never even questioned whether I might be an alcoholic. This despite the fact that I drank alot and that over the course of five years or so my drinking had progressed from getting drunk on occasion to being drunk every day. I remained in denial about alcohol until it kicked my ass once and for all. And I have to say that after I got on the meds, I think I *chose* to remain in denial.
I feel really fortunate that I didn't kill myself or someone else while drinking. When I got arrested, I could no longer remain in denial. There it is: they're taking the mug shots and the fingerprints and the thing that made it all happen was my drinking. I could no longer drink.
Fortunately, I was still on the meds, but after about a month sober, my prescription ran out. My GP wanted me to get back into talk therapy, but I was resistant. Therefore, I went off the meds.
Ohmigod. After about a month, I remembered why I like to drink. The illness unmanaged is nasty. I'm holding it together and some days are just fine. Other days are awful though. I get suicidal for no good reason: the rational side of me which has everything to live for starts being drowned out by this sense of immense sadness and feeling of futility and I can't seem to make it STOP! Fortunately, because I *have* finally accepted the fact that this is something my brain just does to me when I'm not medicated, I feel a little stronger. My feelings truly lie. I feel 'em, but I don't trust 'em and so I'm less quick to act on them. When I have a suicidal ideation, I talk about it with a rational person. The depression is somewhat manageable. The mania is less so. I get alot done when I'm manic and alot of it is very good. Unfortunately, I also lose sleep and feel like I can do anything, so I bite off more than I can chew and make poor decisions or say things without thinking.
So, I'm trying to get back on the meds. It's difficult to find a psychiatrist who takes insurance and finding mental health assistance is notoriously difficult. I live in one of the most liberal and helpful towns in the country. We have tons of social workers, recovery agencies, etc. but it was still hard to get the help. I *did* take responsibility to admit I need help, but it got so frustrating at one point that I needed my husband to step in and advocate for me.
I'm six months sober and I get to see the psychiatrist who diagnosed me for a re-diagnosis and script in three weeks. And today, right now, RIGHT now, I'm okay. I feel good. I'm not at war with anyone including myself. My work is good and I'm valuable. But who knows how I'll feel tomorrow?
I'm the one who brought up mental-illness because in the list of suicides, I noticed a lot of bipolar alcoholics. I'm not saying that any two of these people are alike or that I'm like these people, but there are some pretty firmly established links between substance abuse, creativity, and bi-polar illness.
I think for those folks perhaps the art came *despite* illness and its symptoms. Art is a grace, but not always a saving one.
Kay Redfield Jamison has written several books about bi-polar illness and she wrote one specifically about artists and the illness: TOUCHED WITH FIRE. I recommend it if you're interested in the topic at all.
Hope you don't mind my being so personal. Maybe I should write for True Confessions or something.....
BOS
- Thursday, February 13 2003 12:21:32
Well, also ask for divination of the beginnings of the universe. Those questions are about as easy to answer.
My brother Joel suicided; he'd been diagnosed with schizophrenia. I'd like to know at which point the illness became a burden he was unable to carry; at what point the world fell in on him. His decision to end his life was his choice, as the note he left so clearly stated it.
Unpleasantness has nothing to do with being a schizophrenic or manic-depression. These are diseases, the same as leukemia, or diabetes. If disease remains unchecked, there are serious, if not fatal consequences; this is the truth with mental illness as well. Don't believe for a minute that mental illness cannot be fatal; thirty percent of those who are diagnosed with chronic forms of sz and m-d will die within the first five years of diagnosis.
We do not judge those who have other forms of illness; we judge the psychiatric patient due to our ignorance and the fear that results, not because of their disease. Etiology can be understood, and that often will alleviate fear.
BOS
Eric Martin
- Thursday, February 13 2003 12:10:39
Eric Martin
- Thursday, February 13 2003 11:46:20
My only hero is William Shatner, because there's no logical explanation for him or his success. And he's sure not screwed up...
RE: Ms. Woolf. By all accounts, despite her undeniable brilliance, not a fun person to be around. That in itself is not the final arbiter of literary merit, but it could help.
Separating the pure aesthetic of the work from the musty laundry of the life; well, David, you're welcome to have at it. Although I think it's a lot easier when the artist in question has been dead for a considerable stretch.
Lynn
The Walking Wounded - Thursday, February 13 2003 11:46:3
L.
P.A. Berman
- Thursday, February 13 2003 11:32:38
http://www.jillsobule.com/discs.asp?a=40&t=6
So I guess Eric is not the only person whose opinion of an artist is affected by knowlegde of the artist's personal life. It's only human.
PAB
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Thursday, February 13 2003 11:28:13
You better today?
:)
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Thursday, February 13 2003 11:27:13
"However, I do have a question to throw out to everyone: at what point is a mentally ill person incapable of free will? Do mentally ill people who commit suicide have a choice? If so, can they be judged based on this decision? Is it morally reprehensible to dislike a person whose behavior is unpleasant b/c they are mentally ill? Or maybe the person's unpleasantness and mental illness are unrelated? How can one tell? I was thinking about this today b/c of DTS's question and I couldn't quite decide."
Boy, Paula you threw me on that one.
At first I KNEW the answer-- then as I began to write it devolved into a clear case of "which came first the chicken or the egg ". They choose not to take their medicine THEN BECAUSE they are NOT ON their medication they commit suicide. But they CHOOSE not to take their medicine because they are not in their right MINDS.
It could be distilled down a bit though; it would be the DEGREE of mentally illness that would determine whether or not an individual had a choice.
I don't think there is anything morally wrong about disliking a person who is mentally ill if that person is evil or meanspirited. An UNPLEASANT person is an UNLIKEABLE person. Life is too short to suffer anyone who makes it unbearable. We are human beings and that which is uncomfortable for us is repellent to us.
I have found that most people I have encountered who HAVE mental illness are remarkably likeable.
The point is there are varying degrees of mental illness. Some which would command keen sympathy at one point would, taken to a deeper degree, warrant scorn.
Back to Hitler-- he was mad, there is no question about that. His madness does not exonerate him from his unspeakable crimes.
Cindy
P.A. Berman
- Thursday, February 13 2003 10:26:33
"I haven't been able to relocate the post where someone disdained "The Hours" because Virginia Woolf was such a dislikable character, BECAUSE she was mentally ill. I suspect it was Eric, and I've found your attitude on this point almost offensive, Eric."
No, David, it wasn't Eric, it was me, but you didn't quite get it right. I have no feelings about Virginia Woolf as a person. I don't know much about her and don't presume to judge her. She was, however, a character in a movie, and I did not enjoy her depiction. Leonard's pathos was obvious to me IN THE FILM: he did everything he could to help her, and she seemed rather callous to the effect she was having on him. I found her to be gratingly self-indulgent and willfully weird, IN THE FILM. I understand she was mentally ill; I also understand that this was a movie, and my sympathies were given completely to the character of Leonard.
"Have you ever known someone who was mentally ill? Better, loved such a person? Of COURSE they're selfish and ungrateful; they're just trying to hold it together, dammit! Do you think her original works are not as valuable as Leonard Woolf's writings and publications just because he was a considerate, nice guy?"
This is completely irrelevant to my discussion of the film. I was commenting on a character in a movie whose depiction left me unsympathetic. I did not comment at all on the value or validity of her work, nor of Leonard's. That, I think, was actually Eric. I personally do not judge works of art by the moral status of the artist. I couldn't enjoy James Brown or The Doors if I did.
"Have you read Virginia Woolf and decided her work was not to your taste, Eric, or are you just indulging a personal prejudice?"
Again, irrelevant. The movie wasn't a piece of her work, nor was Nicole Kidman's depiction based on David Hare's adaptation of Michael Cunningham's novel actually Woolf herself. Surely this film is about as invalid a criteria on which to judge Woolf as a person or an artist as any dramatization of an adaptation of a fiction could be.
However, I do have a question to throw out to everyone: at what point is a mentally ill person incapable of free will? Do mentally ill people who commit suicide have a choice? If so, can they be judged based on this decision? Is it morally reprehensible to dislike a person whose behavior is unpleasant b/c they are mentally ill? Or maybe the person's unpleasantness and mental illness are unrelated? How can one tell? I was thinking about this today b/c of DTS's question and I couldn't quite decide.
PAB
Lynn
Short Story - Thursday, February 13 2003 10:24:34
Thanks sweetie,
L.
Jon Stover
Canada. Art - Thursday, February 13 2003 10:17:30
Cheers, Jon
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: Adolf Paintler, - Thursday, February 13 2003 9:50:36
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: art and madness, continued, - Thursday, February 13 2003 9:38:49
By way of clarification, Eric repeated his earlier remarks
> When someone like Virginia Woolf wastes herself, I become
> slightly less interested in her work, since it obviously
> wasn't ENOUGH to keep her going. One goes back and reads
> it all knowing that here, behind it all, is unhappy
> doom.
Okay, not as bad as I remembered it, but I still think that expresses a personal prejudice. There are so many assumptions underlying it which I find unwarranted, I hardly know where to begin.
The purpose of one's art or writing is not necessarily to "keep one going." Even if it were, the obstacles someone like Woolf faced may have been so much greater than those any of us has encountered or will encounter, that the majestic effort of creating art out of (or despite) her pain may still be more than adequately rewarding for peons such as we.
To turn your reasoning on its head, a contented moron should have the most useful and beautiful things to say to the rest of us.
And after all, one could say an unhappy doom awaits us all. That may in fact be one of the reasons we create, and appreciate, art: to stave off, however temporarily, the approaching gloom.
Okay, so who WAS it who attacked "The Hours" because Woolf was supposedly selfish and ungrateful? And what did this critic say? I wanted to discuss those remarks too, but I can't find them. . . .
(Keep in mind that I am no particular Woolf fan. _Mrs. Dalloway_ didn't have as great an effect on me in college as various Hardy, Dickens, Lawrence, and other novels -- never mind the poets of Woolf's era; but like Hemingway, people I respect respect her, and my main mission here is to question assumptions and what I judge to be hasty or incorrect thought processes.)
Jason Michelitch <JasonAMichelitch@aol.com>
- Thursday, February 13 2003 9:27:46
RE: GLEN OR GLENDA
I always liked what Tim Burton said about Ed Wood (the person) around the time he made "Ed Wood" (the film): that he didn't really consider him to be the Worst Director that he's always talked about as, since his films had an obvious heart to them. He was making movies because he loved movies, and, as you say, as loopy as it all turned out, it shows through in the finished product. Burton said (in different words...I have NO idea where the quote I read is) that he'd put Wood above any of the technically-perfect but braindead and soulless summer-movie carbon-copy schlockmeisters that litter the landscape. And I'd have to agree with the sentiment.
-Jason
Zoë Rose
CA - Thursday, February 13 2003 9:8:46
LYNN - Shoot me an e-mail with your short story? Is it the unicorn one or a new one? Send me, either way, if you'd like to.
I was gonna write something else and now I've forgotten. Dangitall! Y'all are saved.
-Zoë Rose
Lynn
Pedestrian Evil - Thursday, February 13 2003 8:45:55
What is truly terrifying is that for as horrible as the man was, his art could still reflect something so pedestrian. Says that things in his head were pretty ... boring. Lack of talent, perhaps, but still -- wouldn't you think that his subconscious would bleed over a little? Just a smidgen?
Maybe I know too many artists who can't doodle on napkins without their pathologies showing.
L.
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Thursday, February 13 2003 8:13:16
Re David Loftus's comments on Hitler's paintings. I thought I'd written this on this board before, but maybe it bears repeating. The single best comment on Hitler's artwork that I've ever seen turned up in an episode of _Millennium_. Frank Black was in a dentist's office, and while gazing at a waiting-room painting of mountain scenery, he has one of his Awful Psychic Flashes-- this time, of Nuremburg rallies. So a few minutes later, he's reading about Hitler... and among the reproductions of Hitler's watercolors, there's that mountain scene.
I'd always thought that was the funniest comment on Hitler's artwork. It wasn't that it shows soul-sickness or evil-- it shows that he probably could never have done anything better than waiting-room wall-muzak.
Eric Martin
- Thursday, February 13 2003 8:13:8
Nope, that wasn't me on The Hours. Take it easy, David. My small comment about Virginia Woolf is not some universal castigation of mental illness. I believe if you read my post, it says
--When someone like Virginia Woolf wastes herself, I become slightly less interested in her work, since it obviously wasn't ENOUGH to keep her going. One goes back and reads it all knowing that here, behind it all, is unhappy doom.--
You can read as much, or as little, into that as you want, but I think you're coming on a little strong. "Slightly less interested" is hardly "indulging a personal prejudice."
"You sound very much like someone who believes all poor people have only themselves to blame for their economic state. "
Cheap shot, not relevant to the discussion, and not true, either. Bad day?
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: mental illness and art, - Thursday, February 13 2003 7:58:35
> Hitler's paintings and Gacey's clowns sprang from the
> souls of mad men and butchers. For ME, the taint of
> their poisoned spirits soiled any potential artistic
> accomplishment.
I might be inclined to agree with you, except that I suspect their souls were so tainted that there's no art in their work. I've seen reproductions of Hitler's paintings; they seemed quite pedestrian and don't add anything to my life. I've never seen Gacy's clowns, fortunately for me.
I haven't been able to relocate the post where someone disdained "The Hours" because Virginia Woolf was such a dislikable character, BECAUSE she was mentally ill. I suspect it was Eric, and I've found your attitude on this point almost offensive, Eric. You sound very much like someone who believes all poor people have only themselves to blame for their economic state.
Have you ever known someone who was mentally ill? Better, loved such a person? Of COURSE they're selfish and ungrateful; they're just trying to hold it together, dammit! Do you think her original works are not as valuable as Leonard Woolf's writings and publications just because he was a considerate, nice guy?
Have you read Virginia Woolf and decided her work was not to your taste, Eric, or are you just indulging a personal prejudice?
Do you think Van Gogh's paintings are worthless because he offed himself?
Would you say Primo Levi's books have no power to enlighten and uplift the living because he committed suicide after decades of carrying the burden of having survived the Shoah?
Melissa Reeston
- Thursday, February 13 2003 7:58:34
Yes, it does contain the scene from "Ed Wood" where Wood's drag character pleads for tolerance, with his wife giving up her beloved sweater on a display of acceptance. We roared with laughter at that incredibly maudlin moment.
Ever seen "Robot Monster"?
Love to all, Melissa
Jay Smith
COPYRIGHT/TRADEMARK ISSUE - Thursday, February 13 2003 7:33:18
COPYRIGHT QUESTION!
Someone draws a picture of SCOOBY-DOO (or BART SIMPSON) on their own. They want a T-SHIRT PRESS done of that illustration for reasons unknown. As a representative of a company that will accept payment for this service, do I have to secure written permission from the trademark/property holder before I give out this product even though it's probably just a gift for a child?
I say yes since you cannot bootleg t-shirts with copyrighted images even for personal use (you could easily buy a scooby-doo t-shirt). Elements in my company suggest it is non-commercial use and a personal sketch, so the law doesn't apply (fair use).
B'linko's - Upholding the Law while Providing Exquisite Customer Service.
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Thursday, February 13 2003 7:28:24
Morbius: "The Krell civilization lasted a hundred thousand years. During that time, they stroke, and worked, and built, and endured, until finally their science reached the very limits of knowledge. They could peer into telescopes and see the birth of the Universe. They were on the verge of creating a vast machine which would translate their very thoughts into matter and form. They would have been as Gods."
Captain: "And then what happened? Did their hubris bring them down? Did this machine call forth monsters from the Id?"
Morbius: "No, a bunch of religious fanatics didn't like the idea, so they killed off the entire race with anthrax."
Altaira: "That's horrible!"
Morbius: "Oh, it gets worse. The ones that survived managed to destroy nearly every written record of the Krell civilization, except for this collection of their Holy Books. Nearly every page denounces the rest of the Krell for godlessness, decadence, and hubris. The rest is just a lot of ranting about women mating with jackals."
Captain: "Jackals?"
Morbius: "Yes. This edition here has pictures. It seems to have been a recurrent theme in this particular sect."
Jay Smith
DUCK...and TAPE!? - Thursday, February 13 2003 7:21:56
Where's that damned Duck-n-Cover turtle when you need him. At least he made futile safety drills fun.
Cindy...read your email. Sent you some notes. Laughed my Kabuki off. Thanks. Yesterday was crappy. Dealt with a quartet of strippers who god must be punishing. One looked like someone hit her in the face with a belt sander, another had multi-colored theatre rope welded to her scalp and eyebrows put on in crayon. All of them looked like they hadn't eaten in weeks. They wanted business cards with their pictures. Yeeks. I would have sympathy, empathy, any sort of positive-athy toward them if they weren't four of the most obnoxious, arrogant and stupid people I've met in a while.
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Thursday, February 13 2003 7:19:52
The results indicate that the Universe is roughly 13.7 billion years old, that stars formed within 200 million years after the Big Bang, and that matter comprises only 4 percent of the Universe. The rest is "dark matter" about which little is known.
I think many of us here already know what that "dark matter" is. After all, aren't the two most plentiful elements in the Universe hydrogen and _stupidity_?
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Thursday, February 13 2003 6:47:48
_Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band_, with the Bee Gees, Peter Frampton, Alice Cooper, George Burns, and a cute little cupcake with the uber-Seventies name of Sandy Farina who, apparently, does session and songwriting work now.
To Jay: _Angels' Revenge_ reminds me of that dialogue in _Pulp Fiction_, where Uma Thurman's character describes the TV pilot she'd done back when she had an acting career. Best comment MST makes about it: "I detect the liver-spotted hand of Aaron Spelling behind this."
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.com>
Philadelphia, - Thursday, February 13 2003 0:48:33
CHUCK: "Margaret Rivendell Hammerschmitt"? You're a GENIUS! Li'l Washu, we've found your new handle!
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 21:24:44
How do you DO all that while you're SICK?
I sent you an email too.
:)
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 21:20:42
Email headed your way.
I hope you enjoy reading it HALF as much as I enjoyed writing it.
:)
Cindy
Lynn
re: Short story sales - Wednesday, February 12 2003 21:20:3
:\
L.
PS. Anyone interested in reading said short story, just ask. I'll send you a copy.
PPS. If you're running Windows, you should have a handy little accessory called the Character Map. From the Start Menu, Start>Programs>Accessories>System Tools>Character Map. Scroll down, select the character you want to represent, and there should be a Keystroke combination in the lower right corner. You can also copy and paste the character, if there is no keystroke combination. The ones that I use the most are é (Alt-0233) as in café, ¢ (Alt-0162), £ (Alt-0163), ° (Alt-0176) as in 32°F, æ (Alt-0230) for those special archæologists in my life, ß (Alt-0223) as in straße, ñ (Alt-0241) is required in Califorñia, « & » (Alt-0171 & 0187 respectively), and of course, © (Alt-0169). I'm going to bed now, because this is really, really silly. ::sniffle::
Jay Smith
Oh How I Miss the Days of MST3K - Wednesday, February 12 2003 21:2:44
"This is the second 4-DVD set they've done. The first contained _Catalina Caper_, _Bloodlust_, _The Creeping Terror_, and _Skydivers_. This second one contains _Pod People_, _Cave Dwellers_, _Angels' Revenge_, and a collection of short films."
Ohhhh... such bad video goodness... The great Coleman Francis epic "Skydivers" (which pales when viewed against his opus, "Red Zone Cuba") "Angels' Revenge" is probably the worst jiggle movie I've ever seen and is almost a parody of everything horrifyingly embarrassing about 70's television. "Cave Dwellers" gives us "MILES O'Keefe" as in "How much O'Keefe is in this movie?" with the worst hang-gliding sequence since Klinger took flight over the compound in that episode of M*A*S*H. I believe "Pod People" probably has the best musical number of any Joel MST.
But I agree with Frank. MANOS is best taken slowly, in bits - chapter by chapter on DVD - with plenty of rest and fluids between. Torgo's Theme is enough to haunt your dreams.
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 20:47:3
I wonder who was on the take take for THAT deal. THAT is highly suspicious.
If nothing else Colorado has traditionally known the true value of water to be above that of gold.
I knew probably a dozen water lawyers in Glenwood Springs alone! I once asked one how he could make a living in "water law" he said that in Colorado EVERYTHING hinges on water and that the western slope was dependent on it. Without attention being paid to the detail of the law, he said, the eastern slope would get it and it would all be funneled to Denver.
SO I don't GET how they could be so out of character as to start giving it away to another STATE!! They GUARDED the stuff when I lived there like the crown jewels.
Something must have changed.
Did you hear about the water debt that Mexico owes Texas?
Sonsofbitches in Austin are killin' the ag producers in the Valley.
I'm stunned by what you wrote.
Cindy
HEY LYNN- WHAT BUTTONS DO I PUSH FOR A STUNNED FACE?
:)
I need two-- one for what Chuck wrote and another for what YOU wrote!
YOU are GIFTED, Miss Lynn--- friggin' GIFTED. Your story is brilliant and rich... even more so than I expected and I expected ALOT from you. The IMAGES are drawn so clearly and with such precision!
I am IMPRESSED-- UTTERLY IMPRESSED.
THANK YOU for letting me read your work.
Cindy
Chuck
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 20:28:20
Cindy,
"Chuck?
Are you serious?"
Yup. As a heart attack. I don't blame Arizona. We just have a talent for shooting ourselves in the foot out here.
Lynn,
Got it. I need more sleep, too.
Nite.
Chuck
Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 20:20:25
Regarding your writer/suicide list - H. Beam Piper, Abbie Hoffman and Richard Brautigan although Hoffman as a suicide seemed sort of out of character.
Barry Malzberg would say anybody who has ever aspired to be a career Science Fiction or Fantasy writer was attepting a form of suicide but that's Barry for you.
Oh, and Socrates.
Have a nice day! :-)
- Barney Dannelke
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 20:13:46
You feelin' any better?
:)
Cindy
Lynn
ASCII me no questions and I tell you no lies - Wednesday, February 12 2003 20:6:40
Alt-0235 = ë
L.
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 20:3:41
"By the way, Arizona is just swimming in water. They're experiencing the same drought we are. The water they're enjoying? Exported from Colorado. I wonder what genius politician negotiated THAT agreement"
Chuck?
Are you serious?
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 20:0:36
ERIC WROTE;
"One might be more forgiving with the visual and musical arts."
I'm not. They impact my moods instantly and powerfully I want no part of the soul of an evil man... not even if it is outwardly achingly beautiful.
Cindy
Chuck
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 19:51:57
It's been cold this week, and it actually snowed. We've had dry, spring-like weather. Very dry. For a month, there was NO snow on the ground outside the mountains. None. One day, I drove through a blinding dust storm. We're expecting more snow this weekend. I hope that's right, because if this drought doesn't break, we'll have the massive wildfires we had last spring and summer.
By the way, Arizona is just swimming in water. They're experiencing the same drought we are. The water they're enjoying? Exported from Colorado. I wonder what genius politician negotiated THAT agreement.
Zoe,
The name, Margaret Rivendale Hammerschmitt is something I just made up a the spur of the moment. I was just feeling goofy. I hope you can get more sleep. Take care. Say, how DO you put that umlaut obove the o?
Lynn,
Feel better. Good vibes in your direction, you heathen, you.
Eric,
It can be difficult to differentiate the creation from the character of the creator. I would tend to be more forgiving of suicidal tendencies because I suffer from clinical depression myself. I keep it in check with regular doses of antidepressant. I hate taking pills. I have difficulty swallowing them, for some reason. Still, I take them because it puts my brain back in balance and the animal that claws me apart from inside goes to sleep. Hemingway may have lost his ability to cope because his chemicals went out of wack. It can happen when one gets older.
Still, I can have a little problem enjoying the work of a former Nazi, for example. That is something I would have trouble getting around.
Chuck
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 19:40:2
"Suicide, alcoholism, and the arts. Let's add mental illness.
All I can say is that having walked hand in hand with all the above demons, knowing someone was a suicide or alcoholic or just plain crazy does NOT diminish the person's art in my eyes. It saddens me, but sometimes there's just not enough art in the world to save a tortured soul.
I just love the art and ponder what lessons I might take from that person's life. There but for the grace......"
Cookie,
I agree with you on that.
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 19:37:46
DAVID LOFTUS WROTE;
"No, that ain't the whole point, not by a long shot. And aesthetic beauty and artistic truth are not invalidated by creators who were drunkards, spouse batterers, child abusers, fascists, or anything else unholy.
To a certain extent, the work stands separate from the creator. It lives -- in different ways over time -- partly in the eyes and needs and aspirations of those who come to appreciate it later."
David,
I don't know about that.
Hitler's paintings and Gacey's clowns sprang from the souls of mad men and butchers. For ME, the taint of their poisoned spirits soiled any potential artistic accomplishment.
The work might be important in a historical capacity or perhaps in a clinical one-- but art comes from the spirit and a malevolent one leaves an indelible and repulsive stain.
I've seen Gacey's clowns. They made me shudder. I wish I'd never seen them.
Cindy
cookie
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 19:8:37
All I can say is that having walked hand in hand with all the above demons, knowing someone was a suicide or alcoholic or just plain crazy does NOT diminish the person's art in my eyes. It saddens me, but sometimes there's just not enough art in the world to save a tortured soul.
I just love the art and ponder what lessons I might take from that person's life. There but for the grace......
~sertsa~
What about the voice? - Wednesday, February 12 2003 19:6:36
Why disparage a gift because the giver is chemically imbalanced, or merely broken?
~ s e r t s a ~
Eric Martin
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 18:38:36
A freighted statement. I've personally never been able to enjoy Wagner, because the man was such a pernicious anti-semite. It DOES color the work for me, although maybe I'm a product of our artist-as-celebrity age.
One might be more forgiving with the visual and musical arts. But as far as writers go, how many people would hang around this board if it were found that Harlan Ellison did heinous, unholy things in his basement? (No offense HE, just trying to make a point.) A lot of the draw to Ellison, judging by the posts I've read on this board, is the man himself, his attitudes and positions.
When someone like Virginia Woolf wastes herself, I become slightly less interested in her work, since it obviously wasn't ENOUGH to keep her going. One goes back and reads it all knowing that here, behind it all, is unhappy doom. Unless of course you have a more forgiving view of suicide, as the only real choice we have...
DTS <none>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 18:18:49
--DTS
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 17:30:41
Regarding:
"Diana, do you have a husband? And does this man have a gun
under his pillow? :-)"
I'm flattered that you've interested yourself in my marital status.
My views on the subject of marriage, as an abstract, would probably be considered unconventionial to many, because although a lot of women seem to be willing, and in some cases even eager, to attain this state, and although it is a commonly held view that women are usually the one's out to "catch" a man and
get him to marry her,it has always looked to me like most of the real benefits of that institution are actually experienced by the men.
I also believe, again unconventionally, that polygamy should be entirely legal, and sanctioned by all the powers-that-be.
I'm not sure what you're question about the gun relates to. If it wasan oblique inquiry into my own views on gun control, I can elucidate you on that simply enough. My short answer is that I'm against it.
Thanks for your questions, Frank. As usual they were interesting, and also as usual, opened the way to the possibility of all sorts of fascinting discussions.
Diana
Alex Krislov <alexkrislov@cs.com>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 16:52:56
Also Yukio Mishima, Arthur Koestler, Jack London--off the top of my head.
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: art v. life, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 16:45:46
>> prose writers, poets, screeenwriters and playwrights
>> that have committed suicide
Eric suggested
> Doesn't it invalidate the work? Especially with writers...
> the whole point is to try to DEAL with it all...then they
> go and off themselves, and you're left wondering...was it
> all bullshit, Papa H?
No, that ain't the whole point, not by a long shot. And aesthetic beauty and artistic truth are not invalidated by creators who were drunkards, spouse batterers, child abusers, fascists, or anything else unholy.
To a certain extent, the work stands separate from the creator. It lives -- in different ways over time -- partly in the eyes and needs and aspirations of those who come to appreciate it later.
Eric
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 16:28:1
Doesn't it invalidate the work? Especially with writers...the whole point is to try to DEAL with it all...then they go and off themselves, and you're left wondering...was it all bullshit, Papa H?
joseph J. Finn
Chicago, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 16:24:53
Much as we disagree on things, we have two things to share:
1. "Bowling for Columbine" being nominaed, especially since the new documentary rules don't go into affect until next year (they're designed to make sure the nominators watch the films thoroughly, and avoid embarressments like "Hoop Dreams" being ignored).
2. "Minority Report" should have been nominated for best picture. What a wonderful parable of the 1st-rights violations we're going through right now. This'll be as remembered as a lapse as great as "Singin' In The Rain" not winning in '52.
Lynn,
"Spirited Away" was nominated for Best Animated Feature, but they stacked the deck with dreck like "Treasure Planet" (the Academy can nominate three-five films in this category, dependent on how many animated features there were). It's a sad attempt to get an American feature with the statue, one which I think will fail miserably. Any half-competent animator or fan of films wants to see Miyazaki up on stage, finally recognized here for his brilliance. And god, does "Spirited Away" deserve to win. Easily one of the 5 best movies of the year.
Regards,
Joseph "The Film Geek" Finn
P.S. Chris, you're not a grump. You just remind me of Siskel and his blind spot toward science-fiction films, be they great or shite.
P.A. Berman
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 16:9:47
I too had mixed feeling about The Hours. I really wanted to slap the shit out of Virginia Woolf. She had the most wonderful husband a woman could want, who loved her and tried so hard to help her, but she still drowned herself. I think Nicole Kidman did a great job nonetheless, but that portion of the story bugged me.
I usually find Meryl Streep to be overrated, but she was subtle and intense in this movie; her breakdown scene in the kitchen was very effective. Julianne Moore is so impressive in EVERYTHING she does; her performance moved me even though I hated her character. Ed Harris' performance was incredible. My point is, the acting made the movie for me. I wouldn't be thrilled to see The Hours win Best Picture, but I think the acting kudos were well-deserved, and I think it earned the nomination if not a victory.
PAB
P.A. Berman
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 16:1:38
PAB
R.Wilder
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 15:38:59
Andrew <drew71@hotmail.com>
San Diego, CA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 15:37:14
Am I to assume you didn't see "Lilo and Stitch"?
-A
Lynn
Herbal antibiotics - Wednesday, February 12 2003 15:30:59
I have a great book that my mom bought me called "The Healing Herbs" by Castleman. He's an MD and explains each herb in terms of modern day medicine, including dosages and interactions, which is very nice.
Me, I'm a devoted follower of the "Better Living Through Chemistry" philosophy. I have to be with the smog and allergens in the air in LA. So I have my Dayquil and my kleenex, and I'm good for now.
I think I just saw a gondoleer outside my window, which is pretty amazing, considering we're on the second floor.
L.
(Where it hasn't stopped raining all damned day.)
John G
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 15:29:4
John G <john07700@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 15:28:8
John G <john07700@hotmail.com>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 15:19:41
Lynn, you're right and it's probably part of the reason why ER is such an acclaimed show, but I'll note that the characters change pretty much when the actor playing them has decided to bail, or just gets tired of their role, and they can't recast. Like killing off Col Blake in MASH. Cynical of me, but it *is* a business....and while my wife loves Law and Order in all its various permutations I just can't watch it regularly, much as I like Jerry Orbach. But that's me; I don't have a favorite TV drama right now, so I'm not the best of judges.
Good luck with the cold---I've done the Vitamin C route,lots and lots with even more water, along with the zinc, and it seems to help. Have you ever tried the goldenseal tabs along with the "e"...or is it the goldenseal that you have to watch dosages...?
Lynn
Ask and ye shall receive - Wednesday, February 12 2003 14:36:41
http://www.prometheusbooks.com/site/catalog/popular36.html
L.
DTS <none>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 14:14:7
--DTS
Chris L
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 14:1:1
Yeah, the Oscar picks are boring but I will at least give them credit for nominating The Pianist - which would be my favorite film of the ones nominated and, if it won, would be the first truly worth Best Picture winner since... gosh, Unforgiven. But it ain't gonna win.
**Did you see The Hours? Or Far From Heaven? Or The Piano? Or Spirited Away? I thought those were also exceptional. **
Yeah, I saw them all but I was talking about American film before. I didn't like The Hours at all - it's the sort of faux-art pandering, self-important melodrama that the Academy loves but is really as simple-minded as any van Damme movie. In the genere os faux-art, pandering self-important melodrama, however, The Hours is a better example than most - it at least is sincere unlike most other films of that ilk and does feature a great performance by Kidman.
I thought Far From Heaven was pretty good so I'd add that and Auto-Focus to my all-too-short list of interesting American films of 2002.
Spirited Away is fabulous. If any other film in the Animated Feature category receives even a single vote, shame on that voter. Personally, I'd vote for Spirited Away over any of the Best Picture nominees and I think it also deserved a screenplay nomination. It's wonderful.
Lynn
Six String Samurai - Wednesday, February 12 2003 13:43:21
Joseph~ Death was indeed something off a heavy metal album cover. And what the hell was with the ratchet? Is this the key to all life? The ability to tweak something until you get it right? ::grin:: My only complaint about that movie is that I wanted so much more from the fight scenes. I'm spoiled that way. If you're kicking ass, I want it to look pretty. Too many years watching Jackie Chan and the expatriates from the Beijing Opera.
Frank~ You risk your life everyday posting to this board, and I have to say, you have my grudging respect for that. You're crazy as a slow boat to Mars, but I can respect that too.
Back to watching tv and watching the stock ticker on Kleenex go steadily upward.
L.
Lynn
Yeah for Anime - Wednesday, February 12 2003 13:38:48
The best part of that film was sitting next to the seven black kids, aged from 4 to 14. The 7-yr old spent the whole film trying to explain what was going on to his 4-yr old little brother. We had as much fun watching them as we did the movie. That and I wanted to pin a medal on their parent's chest for their fabulous theatre etiquette. All seven kids were better behaved then some adults I've seen.
L.
Rob
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 13:32:33
No, I haven't looked at that. That's Lance Mungia, I believe. I read a little about the feats he pulled to finance it, having started the thing as a student film. I'm kind of interested in checking it out, if only because it was shot in Death Valley - a forbidding setting used by many films of different genres in the past.
I'm glad you reminded me of it.
P.A. Berman
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 13:4:18
Frank: I agree that Daniel Day-Lewis was amazing, in a hammy way. In fact, I can't think of one single movie he was in where I didn't find him utterly mesmerizing. I love Jack Nicholson unconditionally, but I would not be disappointed to see DDL win Best Actor. However, if Jack wins, I'd love to see him moon the Academy the way he mooned the Golden Globe folks a few years back.
This was also a great year for women's roles. Whatever you may think about Chicago, it was fun eye-candy with interesting, female characters. Not Best Picture material, but still a good watch. Also, consider The Hours, Far From Heaven, Unfaithful, Frida, even Spirited Away, Adaptation, and About Schmidt had daring, exciting female roles. FINALLY there are interesting women in movies that are successful with audiences and critics.
So Chris baby, ya old cinema snob, grump all you want: I had a great time this year at the movies. Better than I've had in years. Don't piss in my Cheerios, will ya? Surely I'm not the only one who enjoyed the movies this year?
Frank Church
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 12:56:29
Frank Church
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 12:50:31
I bet Jack Nicholson wins his Oscar, even though the Daniel Day Lewis, Butcher Bill study is acting almost Godly in scope.
Joseph, pop a cork for that fat fuck Michael Moore--yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!
-------------------
Diana, do you have a husband? And does this man have a gun under his pillow? :-)
-------------
Tarantino is ok, and Pulp Fiction is overrated. It borrows from other movies and revolves around the ideal that violence is funny. It has a dark heart and no real point. Snappy dialogue does not a movie make.
--------------
Best Picture nominees overlooked:
One Hour Photo, Minority Report, Insomnia, Adaptation, About Shmidt.
Robin Williams got ass raped by the academy--sad.
Joseph J. Finn
Chicago, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 12:47:33
Ah, "Six-String Samurai." The best rockabilly sword-fight post-holocaust movie ever made. Also, is it just me or does Death look suspiciously like Guns'N'Roses guitarist Slash?
Regards,
Joseph
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 12:30:32
As for depression and videotherapy, I might as well mention that I got depressed right _after_ buying them. I won't go into the whys, as they're kind of whiny and self-centered, and there'd be this reciprocal effect that comes from writing it all out and feeling even _worse_. But it's a trough I fall into far to often.
I don't know _how_ bad my particular "black dog" could be considered-- for one thing, I don't get "suicidal ideation," which keeps me off most scales of severity. But, there are times when I seriously consider some kind of medication, which is something I've always been very suspicious of. If my job's health plan would pay for it, I might give it a try. But for now...
Chris L
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 12:23:44
I'lll just continue my reputation as a movie grump but I thought 2002 was just about the most desolate, depressing year in American film I could remember since... well, OK, maybe only in a few years. But after a fresh and exciting 2001, 2002 was painful. I struggled to come up with even 10 American films I though were tolerable this year. Adaptation, Bowling for Columbine and The Two Towers (I'm calling it an American film) were probably the best of the lot. Add in The Good Girl, About Schmidt, and The Kid Stays in the Picture and I think you may have the entire list of American films of any interest this year. In a positive way, that is. And 2002 featured more than its share of truly awful films (and not just from the idiot teen comedy genre) but I won't get into that.
The Oscar group is pretty much the typical fare - almost entirely uninteresting pabulum but with the occasional worthwhile story that doesn't have a chance in the voting.
I thought Chicago was a garish, badly over-edited musical with mediocre performances but it'll be the least appalling Best Picture winner in several years. I mean, that sort of thing is really just a matter of taste - some people think those songs are good - and if it wins, it'll be OK. I really object to the general state of Hollywood adapations of musicals - they almost always edit the picture so much that you have no way to tell whether the performers are any good or not. Chop, chop, chop - it could just be a series of stills cut together to simulate real dancing. With the singing going through so many mixes, well, for me, it sucks all the magic out of the process. There's no truth left in it. No beauty. Just the simulation of such. But to each his own.
Eric Martin
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 11:58:14
P.A, Berman
virulentstrain@yahooligans.comedy - Wednesday, February 12 2003 11:3:12
Anyone care to comment on the Oscar nominations? I know last year we had all manner of derogatory comments about the falseness and lack of integrity of the institution, etc. For those of you who feel that way, I totally see your point, but you really don't have to reiterate your stance. I do understand, but for me the Oscars are a guilty pleasure. I love to see what everyone's wearing, listen to the babbling acceptance speeches, etc.
Personally, I think this year had an exceptional number of good movies: Adaptation, The Hours, Gangs of NY, About Schmidt, Chicago, The Piano, Unfaithful, Catch Me If You Can, Far From Heaven, Two Towers, Spirited Away, Road to Perdition, Bowling for Columbine, etc. I managed to see them all, so I'm pretty interested in this year's show.
Maybe we could do a pool, where interested parties pick their roster of winners, and whoever comes closest wins something? This idea is still in the larval phase, so the first thing I need to know is if anyone else is interested. E-mail me (my ISP is yahoo.com -- I put my altered address in the header to throw off the many spammers that obviously get e-mail addresses from this board) or post on the board, and help me figure out if this is an idea worth pursuing.
Feeling wide awake for the first time in weeks,
Bermanator
Lynn
Indie films - Wednesday, February 12 2003 10:37:8
L.
Rob
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 10:26:14
Depression sends me down exactly the same road of videot sprees. Some head for the liquor store; some head for their local drug dealer; I head for video/dvd marts for MY escape. Cocteau: you netted a great one.
Chris,
The more I thought about it the more I realized similarities between Good, The Bad and The Ugly and Clockwork, since we talked about them: Tuco and Eastwood were both Alex's, whose world views were the same at the end as they were at the beginning; completely out for themselves. Transitions we saw in them were drawn out by the events; all of them had to play the survival game, and they adjusted - temporarily readapted - according to the needs of that survival game. This is when environment and a character become almost symbiotic.
CEP
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 10:0:54
Oral argument for Harlan's appeal has been scheduled for Thursday, 06 March 2003, at the US Court of Appeals in Pasadena. (This is a public event; although only designated lawyers may speak, the public may observe.) This case is currently the last of five to be argued that day, beginning at 9:00am, but don't count on any particular order for the argument--courts have been known to re-order the argument on a whim, and if any of the previous cases goes short or settles before argument it will be well before the estimated 11:30 start time.
I will argue the matter for Harlan; we have not yet been informed who will argue for AOL, although I suspect that it will be Dan Schecter from Latham & Watkins.
Jay
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 8:58:50
The first two - Disney made perfectly good versions of both available for less than $20 a piece and you go blow a C note on some old, boring U-ro-peen upity dvds. Shame.
(ducks) >CRASH!<
Dead on with MST. Is that the "Mitchell" set?
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 8:54:9
God, the things I do when I get depressed....
Rob
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 8:39:1
Oh, yeah. Watch Good, The Bad, and The Ugly again. CAREFULLY. The issue wasn't to what extent the characters change. It's what comes out of them in the course of the events. The scene I talked about was pretty important.
Rob
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 8:32:29
No, no. I'm not saying you were seriously taking a shot (I just chose to word it that way, since it was unintentionally condescending). I felt you were repeatedly overshooting my point (and school is no excuse; I'M in school too - with another couple of semesters before I finish my degree). First of all, ALL approaches to character can fall victim to formula. But to grind the concept of transformation down to "lesson of the day" after the qualifiers I placed in there is - well - like going out of your way to argue in zigzags. When I refer to change in character (or my interest in the possibilities) it can mean anything from temporary transistion to finding something inside the protagonist he/she didn't have before...OR losing something he once had (the latter often being most powerful for me).
Some off-the-cuff examples of what I mean: Shadow of a Doubt, Psycho, Vertigo, 39 Steps, Lonely Are the Brave, Stalag 17, Midnight Cowboy, M, Fury, Touch of Evil, Kane, Godfather, The Conversation, and so on.
The other night I was looking at the excellent pilot of the failed series (which never recaptured the good writing, having fallen to inevitable formula tv) Vanishing Son (the subsequent tv movies weren't as good either). It was a fine example, examining the tension between two brothers as the lure of different paths inexorably separated them.
Melissa Reeston
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 8:26:59
"Passion" airs at 10 - 11 pm; Mon. - Fri., on CJAD. Scotty and I figure you were a taped segment, to fit into her chosen topic for the night. Let's see what comes of it tonight.
Got to go; work and the Empress Cassie calls.
Melissa
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: yakkin' on the air, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 7:48:34
> Your interview might be a bit delayed; Scotty's Canadiens
> beat my Bruins 3 - 1, and CJAD one of the stations that
> carries the Montreal games. Scotty's off to bed, so I'll
> hang around to see if you're on. Did they tell you you
> might be delayed?
Heck no! I thought all the interviews I've been doing have been live. I was a little surprised that, after having been told we would be doing a half hour, my interview ended after less than 15 minutes. Was I too intellectual, was I talking too fast? Or maybe it was Dr. Betito's cold that made her cut it short (she sounded TERRIBLE). Or the fact that she apparently wasn't getting any callers. Who knows? On the other hand, my interview on "Sex City" at CIUT Toronto two weeks ago went twice as long as they had predicted.
It's been an interesting experience, trying to roll between "serious feminist/sex therapist/gay activist" interviews and "just us guys yukkin' it up during drivetime" interviews. My first bookstore appearance is still a month away. . . .
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 7:21:32
WAKE UP!
:)
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 7:19:43
I didn't know you were SICK. First your Bill and now you.
:(
Don't forget the Claratin-D for the ears!
I am a big ER fan too-- I've been hooked on it since the beginning for the same reasons you stated.
The people-- it's always about the people for me...which means the writers it's all about the writers.
GET WELL SOON!
:)
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 7:14:32
"I could try going at it with a team of wild cards and 'new to the process' friends, but learning curve aside (and 48 hours is a very steep curve), it would be like a quickie wedding in Vegas, with none of my family around to support me (or to stop me from making huge errors in judgment).
So I'm torn. It'd be exciting, and I do well under deadline pressure. But I'd like the whole gang along for the ride..."
YES-- Absolutely DO IT. I had it all- wild card element, inclement weather-- nerves. If you do well under pressure THIS will be your lick. My best advice is to pick people who are fun to be with. OUR main problem stemmed from our inability to refrain from laughing while we were shooting.
The title was The Fantastic Band Boy-- the film about a skinny 14 year old kid who thinks he gets superpowers from his High School band uniform. His older brother- a jock, comes home from college and finds to his disgust that his younger sibling has joined the school band. He walks in on him unseen and watches as his brother ( wearing a ridiculous plumed band hat) looks into the mirror saying, " Are you talkin' to ME? Are YOU talking to ME?"
Drawing Superhero as a genre was rough out here in the middle of nowhere. We were LIMITED- but not shut down. That's part of the excitement seeing what you can do. As they say in these parts, I've done so much for so long with so little that I can do damned near anything with nothing now.
It was great fun-- I can't stress that enough-- GREAT, HUGE fun. Having it shown on the big screen at the Alamo Draft House in Austin was a real rush. The best part was the knowledge that the audience "got it".
The editing under such time constraints was rough as hell--I was literally slapping it together until the last possible moment.. I coulda used another three days to polish it, but it was lined up and in order. In the end it didnt' matter that it wasn't technically flawless-- it got noticed and people laughed at the right spots.
Mostly, it was all about fun and getting the film written and finished under the wire. Knowing you did it-- that's a lovely feeling too.
I'd do it again- gladly.
They have DVD copies of some past winners- I'd get one ahead of time just to familiarize yourself with what everyone else is doing.
ABSOLUTELY though, Finder-- if you don't you'll wish you had later. You won't regret it.
I promise you.
:)
Cindy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lynn
Home sicker than a dog - Wednesday, February 12 2003 6:55:9
I have been electrified by one of the most popular shows, in a way that rarely gets me hooked on a standard "drama". ER has done amazing, horrible things to their characters. The wonderful thing about this show is that the characters have lives, they grow and change and in some cases, do a complete one eighty. Dr. Green(Anthony Edwards) for example, started out in the beginning as the quintessential nice guy -- until someone dragged him into a bathroom and almost beat him to death. Then he became the asshole. Where Dr. Ross (George Clooney), who started out as a womanizer and a real prick, he transformed into this truly heroic character when it came to his pediatric practice. And then he laid his life on the line, literally, for a kid stuck in a storm drain during a flash flood. I could go down the list, but I really admire the writers on this show. I know I can go back to it again and again, and pick up a new story arc. They consistenly amaze me with the breadth and depth of their characterizations.
Now, for a show that meets your 'static' vision of television, there is 'Law & Order'. Another great piece of television writing. But even as the players rotate, the set pieces, the consistencies are what make it good. Doesn't matter who's playing who -- there will always be: The Older and Embittered Detective, The Younger Hothead Detective, The Sneaky Assistant DA, The Morally-Challenged Prosecutor, etc, etc, ad nauseum. The success of this show lies in laying down the same riff, over and over again, in such a fashion that it never gets boring.
Okay, that was way longer than I meant. I'm going back to bed and gonna listen to the rain pouring down. And the plunk-plunk of the water leaking through my ceiling into a bucket right by my bed. ::sigh::
L.
PS. Take your Vitamin C and echinacea. You don't want this cold this year. It's a humdinger.
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 6:35:22
Hey Jay,
You wrote;
"I don't think they've announced the 2003 schedule yet. Colin's hollerin' because he doesn't want to go back to bed. He's got tired boy written all over him but he wants to play with the rest of us. 50mph gusts outside at the bus stop. I'm watching our 10 year old hang on like Piglet on a blustery day."
I LOVE this post-- in particular the part about the 10 year old hanging on " like Piglet on a blustery day." That's just so perfect. 50 MPH!
As for Colin-- mine never slept until they were 3!
:)
Did you see Finder's post?
Cindy
Jay Smith
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 5:50:33
Yeah. I have the same problem. My group is spread from Pittsburgh to Philly to New York. Some are in Delaware and others "parts unknown". Before I invest the entry fee, rentals and other necessary tools, I'm trying to get them together for a test run on another project, just to see if 1) they show up on time (or at all) and 2) if we can all still work together without bloodletting or emotional damage.
It sounds like a great time, though I'm told on theback end there are a lot of extras costs, like having to pay to attend the showings, copies of the video collection from that city are expensive...but I guess if you have the free time to do it and the equipment, you're making enough money to afford that stuff. :)
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
Philly, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 5:37:37
So of course, I'm about to go out--to strap a sailcloth bag holding a hollow, light, wooden instrument to my back and walk through the wind tunnels made by the skyscraper canyons downtown in the nation's fifth-largest city.
Why, it's enough to make a man write run-on sentences ...
Jay Smith
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 5:32:5
I don't think they've announced the 2003 schedule yet. Colin's hollerin' because he doesn't want to go back to bed. He's got tired boy written all over him but he wants to play with the rest of us. 50mph gusts outside at the bus stop. I'm watching our 10 year old hang on like Piglet on a blustery day.
Finder
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 5:16:37
To be honest, I've been mulling jumping into the fray this year in DC; the concept intrigues me. My biggest handicap is that my usual crew is scattered across Western and Eastern New York, and their lives will probably keep them from descending inside the Beltway for a long weekend (one with a new baby, one with his own business, one who is kinda always late getting off Long Island, to the degree we have a pool to guess when she'll arrive and what her reason for being late will be). I could try going at it with a team of wild cards and 'new to the process' friends, but learning curve aside (and 48 hours is a very steep curve), it would be like a quickie wedding in Vegas, with none of my family around to support me (or to stop me from making huge errors in judgment).
So I'm torn. It'd be exciting, and I do well under deadline pressure. But I'd like the whole gang along for the ride...
Zoë Rose
CA - Wednesday, February 12 2003 4:49:9
One of the beauties of the military is that they like to mess with your schedules a lot. It's 4:40 in the friggin' AM and I have to go in - to prove I'm here. *sigh*
Perhaps my eyes are still crossed (they don't function well before 8am) but I cut-paste-copied "Margaret Rivendale Hammerschmitt" into Google and it didn't come up with anything. I'm sure I'm probably just missing a simple literary reference... but... I don't get it? ;) Help a poor tired girl out?
Sorry for the inane slowness. Like I said - 4:42am. Sad.
--Zoë Rose
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 3:43:50
I'm trying really hard to comply with Mr. E's expressed desires to see me exhibit a more decent and dignified presence at his forum. I'm doing so because *he* stated that this is what he wants. I'm hoping to make this very very clear so no one fancies themselves falsely in any way in regards to me. Any recent peacemaking efforts I've made around here have stemmed from my respect for Mr Ellison, and my respect for myself. That's the whole of it.
It's obvious that some of the individuals who post here have had the good sense and maturity to already try and go along with this effort I'm making. I've recognized that this. You know who you are. I appreciate all of you.
Mr Ellison has acknowledged he's noticed my efforts. I appreciate that even more.
If there's anyone posting here who feels that things are unresolved between themselves and myself, maybe a better place to express these feelings would be somewhere other than this forum. Mr Ellison has said, and I agree, all the hateful petty infighting that was going on just lately doesn't reflect well on a him or on this web site, which represents him on the internet.
I've provided an alternate environment, by going and setting up that message board I've mentioned. It could be used for other things as well, of course. That's up to who ever decides to take advantage of the offer. But if someone here feels they just can't control themselves, at least now they can go act out their aggressions somewhere where they'll only be embarassing themselves.
Bye for now.
Diana
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
Philly, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 3:28:17
I was just bored, strolling my mouse around several guitarmakers' websites, when I came across some truly AMAZING luthiery done by two Japanese artists/luthiers, incongruously named "Jersey Girl".
Just to give a taste, have a look at
http://www.dab.hi-ho.ne.jp/jersey-girl/h0501inx.htm
and
http://www.dab.hi-ho.ne.jp/jersey-girl/h0502inx.htm
(It's as if Paul T. Riddell had commissioned his very own guitars!)
You should probably go to their main page, which is the same as above but with "index2.htm" after "jersey-girl/"; these guys are creating some incredible guit-art.
Chris L
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 1:59:32
I wasn't taking a shot of any kind at you. I don't think of this as a debate at all - just a little jawin' session 'bout the movies. All fun like and stuff.
Perhaps because I'm in school again, I am a bit sensitive to some of the pitfalls that come with all the standard canards in the field. Don't get me wrong - I am a big proponent of "Learn the rules before you break them" - but I think I also see the genesis of so much tired formula.
One of the rules, of course, is that you gotta have a character arc. They even define the protagonist as the character who changes the most. If he doesn't change, he isn't the protagonist. Well, setting aside the fact that that's a steaming heap of mule muffins (James Bond isn't the protagonist of his movies???) it's the sort of thing that can lead us in the after school special direction. "The character MUST change. He MUST learn something. Hmm, OK, he'll learn that crime doesn't pay and love conquers all." Bleh. Some people don't ever learn a fucking thing and that's interesting too.
As to your comments on Leone's film, I'm not buying that Blondie changes much at all. And I don't know if Tuco does either. He might, he might - I won't shoot you down on that one. But for either of these guys, do they change or do we merely learn more about them as we travel through time (i.e. watch the movie)? I think it's more the latter. Perhaps this counts as a transformation of sorts by your definition - it's a tranformation of the viewer's perception rather than any internal transformation by the character. Is this a process of tranformation or elaboration?
I think there are great characters with widely described arcs (Raskolnikov, Scrooge) and ones who almost flat-line (Ahab, Aguirre the Wrath of God, James Bond, Travis Bickle*.) There are also boring ones on both sides of the ledger.
*I'm aware we could debate that while Travis doesn't change much internally, he does finally become active after spending so much time trapped by self-imposed inertial forces and this represents the interesting tranformation.
Rob
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 1:42:56
One more thing b'fore I crash: that "after school special" was a really cheap shot. You know exactly what I meant, for Chrissake. Either that or you skipped parts of my posts.
Rob
- Wednesday, February 12 2003 1:33:9
Sure. There's character transition in every example you brought up. Not that they're poor examples to make your argument. Transformation often happens in more subtle ways in thematic-based films, using narrative approaches a little diffently (other examples of that kind of sublety coming to mind are All The President's Men and Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three).
It's late, damn you, so I have to just bang out the words as they come.
Every film you just rattled off draws out important if not subtle changes in the characters. In TGTB&TU Leone placed enigmatic characters against backdrops of massive social change and upheaval; their environment brought out of them what we wouldn't otherwise see (environment being another tool I talked about before). The Man With No Name, an amusing parody of a "good" guy, and Lee Van Cleef at the other extreme pretty much represented fixed points; the story was mostly propelled by Tuco...I might even go so far as to say the story was really about Tuco. The reason I like your example here is because...there IS a transformation in Tuco, who, in turn, brings out a subtle but important one in Eastwood. A powerful moment (there are several brilliant emotional high points, the most obvious being the army fort) is the scene between Tuco and his brother (a priest); Eastwood watches on as they fight. Shortly after (noting the one moment Tuco shows some form of caring; after he strikes his brother he helps him to his feet and leaves), when Tuco and Eastwood hop on the stage to leave, Leone holds a shot on Eastwood's face - showing a wash of sympathy in his eyes - and we know at that moment he felt for Tuco for the first time. Tuco has become human to him. He understands why he's so fucked up. He shares his cigar and this symbolized a bonding unlike the one they had at the beginning of the film. As subtle as that scene was, it was an important one. This was a HUGE changing point for them. The movie, in fact, is very much about changes beneath the surface. When you watch it carefully enough you spot those changes. When we jump to the third act - let's jump to the closing scene - amusingly, the two seem to have gone back to where they were at the beginning (it's true: old ways die hard); but even here something has changed. Eastwood allows Tuco to keep his fair share of the cache. (Remember: that's NOT what he had in mind in the first act). His way of showing remuneration as they part roads.
In all of your examples - sure! - there IS character transformation. Characters may be elastic; they may return to what they were in the beginning. No one is setting rules; I wish you could grasp that. But the events do indeed bring out of them what we otherwise wouldn't have seen. Don't interpret my "transformation" argument so rigidly. Personalities don't necessarily change; but events often bring something knew out of them. They often have to find knew ways to survive (as did Alex in Clockwork - RADICALLY! Fuck, man, there was a HUGE transformation arc in that film. Whasamatter wit you? Doesn't matter if he remained the same miserable punk on the inside; THAT'S part of the argument the film wanted to make. But through most of the film he was set on a journey of survival in a world we perceived through his eyes; largely, a punk's idea of an unjust world. And several supporting characters went through change - the most important being Patrick Magee as the former pacifist writer, whose transformation was absolutely pivitol). Thematic-based movies in particular express character transition in different terms; it's what I meant before by "environment" becoming an extension of character. There are many ways to bend, twist, and turn characters.
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
Philly, - Wednesday, February 12 2003 1:16:9
JOHN G.: I'm not positing superpowers, no. I'm simply removing the fear of death--and as I already tend not to feel any pain above the pimple-popping or toe-stubbing level, it likely wouldn't be too difficult, over a great amount of time, to grow inured to serious large-scale pain. It's all in the nature of the immortality, really: If it entails fast healing, then fine; I'll bite through the pain. If it's a question of imperviousness to pain, same result. Not that it would in any way be EASY to get in, kill, and get out, but hey--just imagine what a fixated person like Bruce Wayne would do with forever ...
Chris L
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 23:42:55
I would suggest there is an equal or perhaps greater risk of falling into the "after school special" formula where the characters must "learn a life lesson" wrapped neat and pretty with a bow on top.
As you noted before, most people don't change in real life except in cases of necessity. Now you could certainly argue with validity that we choose to tell stories about people in such situations because they are inherently dramatic. This is true. But it only captures a small aspect of human existence, leaving the 99.9% of the time people are not CHANGING but are rather BEHAVING or REACTING. You could also argue with validity that this 99.9% is not as inherently interesting as the the 0.1%. Maybe so. I find people existing in time to be interesting - as long as they're, well, interesting. How's that for a bit of circular logic that would make a pontiff blush?
I think of my favorite films and I don't see a whole lot in the way of so-called character arc. 2001? OK, let's throw that one out since it can be argued the main character is not any one person but rather the human race. Taxi Driver? I don't think Travis changes at all. A Clockwork Orange? Alex is changed by outside forces but the film only ends when equillibrium is reestablished and Alex changes BACK TO his initial state. This could still be described as a character arc, merely an unusual one. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. any changes in character are minor indeed. Perhaps "Blondie" learns to tolerate Tuco just a bit more.
I could go on but I think the cinema is full of characters who don't change a whole lot but remain fascinating anyway. They are fascinating because of who they are and our interest is piqued by watching them behave - by watching them exist and act in time.
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Tuesday, February 11 2003 22:47:4
I sent YOU one now.
:)
Cindy
LYNN,
You have one too.
:)
Cindy
Mel,
Hello! Your Scott is a sweetheart. I see what you see in him.
Welcome home!
:)
Cindy
Jay,
Do you know when the 48 hour film deal will be crankin' there? Keep me posted. How's Colin?
Cindy
ERIC,
Thank you for what you did for me. You just shoulda done it before tons of people got to read it all.
:)
Cindy
CHUCK,
Hey you-- how's stuff in cold country?
:)
Cindy
Rob
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 22:34:21
"sometimes to watch a character who is incapable of change. Think of the Woody Allen character in Manhattan."
Of COURSE it's poignant stuff. Recall I summarized the potential in this type of characterization. However, the qualifier here is "sometimes".
You may be trying to say this is your FAVORITE approach to storytelling. It simply isn't mine, and that's what this discussion is actually about.
But here's MY caveat: if you were a writer trying to venture into novels or films, you'd better have a character of rare universal appeal as Woody Allen's has, as Holmes has, and so on. If you don't, the only way you're going to see any real success (MOST likely, anyway) is if you put stories out that develop; and not TOO many stories "develop" without some important transformation in its character(s). Again, this doesn't have to apply to the lead; the important change - what your story is REALLY about - could be in a secondary character.
You MAY have a kick-ass character that serves as the fixed point of the story (which is the type you're talking about) - whose function is precisely NOT to change (the basis for regular running tv series). You'd have a helluva time, however, doing every story centering around this character without transformation in other characters. Otherwise, you fall into what is called a formula. My guess is most storytellers do not like getting sucked into that bog.
There's no fixed argument here, man. There are MANY ways to tell a story. What is "essential" depends on what you're after. But the stories remembered MOST throughout time were embraced because of where a character started and where he wound up. Doesn't always have to succeed on that basis. But it succeeds more OFTEN on that basis.
I will add, I've seen films that followed along the same stream-of-consciousness rails as MANHATTAN, floating reflections free of plot and character...far less competent in more ways than one...and they sucked...BIG time. So, if you're going to try it that way you BETTER have one really appealing character (as Woody Allen's) to catalyze it.
No: to me...I duz repeat...strictly to ME...the real experiment lies in approach to narrative; the different ways you can project changes happening to a protagonist inside and out. His very environment could be an extension of these changes.
Chuck
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 22:23:58
Fess up. I happen to know your real name is Margaret Rivendale Hammerschmitt. I gotcher number.
Washu,
I'd say that if YOUR'E getting tired of the moniker, let it go. I understand the name "Sugar Magnolia" is still available.
Diana,
Your new message board sounds interesting. I'll check it out.
Mel,
Hey, nice to see you posting again. Sorry to hear about Scott and his battle with the bureaucrats. He may need therapy afterwards. And several innoculations.
Chuck
Chris L
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 21:25:55
I'll take issue with this once again and note that while this is one thing to watch for, it is hardly essential. I find it just as poignant sometimes to watch a character who is incapable of change. Think of the Woody Allen character in Manhattan. The final shot of him is so powerful because we know this poor, pathetic, limited man will never grow up, never truly learn what it means to love and to be unselfish. He's condemned to an eternity of being just who he is right now. That's powerful stuff.
P.A. Berman
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 21:15:38
***Think no more on it. Your apology is accepted and it was beyond the call of duty. Thanks. I hope you will post here and we can be friends.***
PAB
P.A. Berman
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 21:4:5
PAB
Melissa Reeston
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 20:20:7
You've got to understand that in Quebec there are two religions: Mother church and the Montreal Canadiens. If that doesn't soothe your nerves, do what I do:
Blame it on Scotty.
Love to all, Melissa
Mitch <mitch_3737@yahoo.com>
HAzlet, NJ - Tuesday, February 11 2003 19:16:48
Well, now that you mention it...me. And thanks for the mental image of being glued to a hungry plant.
Mitch
Melissa Reeston
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 19:9:26
Your interview might be a bit delayed; Scotty's Canadiens beat my Bruins 3 - 1, and CJAD one of the stations that carries the Montreal games. Scotty's off to bed, so I'll hang around to see if you're on. Did they tell you you might be delayed?
Love to all, Melissa
Joseph J. Finn
Chicago, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 19:9:4
You're welcome - and agreed on Marshall. He was always best at....well, not quite evil, but amoral.
Regards,
joseph
John G <john07700@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 19:7:50
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, http://users.boardnation.com/~simplycosmic/index.php - Tuesday, February 11 2003 19:6:41
Thanks for your input about "CreepShow". Kudzu's just one of the things I'm going to be doing pages on.
I'm doing a few on Lenny Bruce at some point soon too, although in his case that'll be more in the nature of do-overs. I had several pages about him before, which I dumped when I revamped my other site. I know you knew him, and have had some things to say about him at this forum which I'm going to look into the archives about.
I'm going to redo all my pages on Freddie Prinze Sr too, which I also dumped during the revamp.
I have a few done about Mom's Mabley already (I'm sure you remember her) They're just not hooked up to anything else at my site at the moment.
And I'm going to add more pages about Sam Kinison. You may or may not know (or care) but a movie about him, titled "My Brother Sam", based in great part on the book of the same title written by his brother, is in the works. They've already cast Jack Black in the part of Sam.
I think it would be fair to say I have kind of a "thing" for stand-up comics. Wanted dead or alive. I have a tape of you stashed someplace. You're doing a standup routine. It's, "Harlan Ellison, Live & Very Annoying" (and very funny)
You're welcome regarding my return to the Good Diana mode. No problem. You expressed yourself. You were right. What else was there to say? That part where you said I could consider my ass as having been kissed by you was particularly effective. It was, of course the correct response.
It was a lot like something my brother would have said under similar circumstances. In fact it's something my brother has said. I heard him say it. Some woman told him to kiss her ass, he had the sense to agree to this immediately. It shut her right up. Plus which, I know him, he would have gone ahead and kissed it if he thought it was called for. He's a very agreeable guy.
Diana~
Joseph Finn~
Thanks for the extra input on Creep Show. I'll look into it further, maybe even rent it if I can find it. E G Marshall was always so good at playing a bad guy, don't you think?
Diana~
Mr Riddell~
I appreciate your extra input on the movie Creep show, and carniverous plants in general. I'll check out that url for the site about carniverous plants. They were the subject of my 8th grade science project, and I've long thought the subject was interesting in a creepy, Addams Family, cool kind of way. Speaking of not too great movies about Man-Eating Plants, I still love, "Little Shop of Horrors", even if they did skunk out at the finish (besides how could a poor white girl from the ghetto like me not enjoy the soundtrack?)
Bye for now.
Diana~
John G <john07700@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 19:6:19
>>Amoral? No; rather, the extreme opposite: A fanatical morality.
I wonder about this. Your example depends on almost having super powers. Just being able to survive a rain of lead doesn't necessarily mean you'd be able to get any closer to a Saddam or a US President. Granted, no one would believe it so chances are by stealth and patience you may get a chance if you wait long enough.
Alan Moore does an interesting take on this in "Watchmen"--I'm thinking of the Doctor Manhattan character, who seems to be essentially immortal and almost godlike in his powers. By the end of the story it's almost inevitable that he takes his leave of Earth. Amoral? Yes, in a sense, but a creature like that would not *need* anything, either, and would either become lost in his own worst self or take off and try to amuse himself in other, non human ways. I stopped reading Superman a long time ago, but I wonder if this aspect of his character was ever explored.
There's also the more human scaled immortals, like The Highlander, or perhaps Sadler's Casca. Casca, from what little I've read, doesn't seem to be able to change over time(granted,Casca is the centurion Longinus and is cursed to wander the earth,like some other classic characters) and my limited viewing of Highlander also suggests that they take a view that there's an essential nature to the immortals that doesn't change all that much, even given centuries.
I suspect an immortal would be in for a lot of boredom.
John G <john07700@hotmail.com>
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 18:51:42
"But what does remain a constant for me is character transformation (bearing in mind there are many ways to present such progression or transgression)....Thus, I am more often drawn to the question of how much a person can change given a set of events; human beings really only change in nature or their world view by necessity. How they effect their outcome by their own choices and actions - which, in turn, reflect who and what they are - once faced with a central dilemma can really intrigue me."
Rob, I think this is right on target, and is a necessary component of real drama. I've often thought that one of the bastardizing effects of episodic TV on all sorts of other works is that you almost have to disregard your observations and *not* allow the characters(or the gross characteristics) to change based on events. Don't damage the franchise.
Joseph J. Finn
Chicago, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 16:43:59
Isn't this a drunk day for you, sanctioned by all present?
"Bowling For Columbine" was nominated for Best Documentary! WOOOOOOH!
Regards,
Joseph
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, http://users.boardnation.com/~simplycosmic/index.php?board=1 - Tuesday, February 11 2003 15:23:43
The offending page is gone. Go check it out for yourself.
The invitation to use the message board was extended to *everyone* here. That includes you. I've even started a topic just for you. That message board can be used to communicate about things of a more personal nature that may not be appropriate to go on about in this forum. If you have a beef, you can go there and express yourself, and invite people to go see what you have to say. If you want.
The url for the message board is:
http://users.boardnation.com/~simplycosmic/index.php?board=1
I've allowed for guests to post there. You don't have to join to participate.
I hope all this helps.
Bye for now.
Diana
P.S. That, "no pictures of asses" rule applies to you as well. I'm just warning you...:=)
Zoë Rose
CA - Tuesday, February 11 2003 15:9:42
LIL' WASHU - I think since you started with it, it's fine to continue with it. Since all anyone has online is what you post and who you post as, it's almost like getting a new "handle" (be it your name or a new nickname) is like getting a complete makeover - we'll have to get used to you all over again! Not that that's a bad thing... just a thought. It'll take awhile to adjust, is all. Just my thoughts on it. You obviously used it for a reason, and it is a part of your virtual personality now, whether or not you keep it.
No one's ever asked here, thank goodness, but all too often, when asked my name, people ask, "No. I mean what's your REAL name?" or "What's Zoë a shortcut for?" or, since I've got a lisp, "Joey? Chloe? Shooey?"
*sigh*
(Note: I'm pretty sure that last little bit has absolutely no bearing or relation to anything... sorry.)
-Zoë Rose
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 14:55:54
Regarding:
"Diana, this kinder, gentler approach is being singularly undermined by the cover page of your new message board, which is reprinted Webderland screeds against Cindy and me"
If you're refering to the page with Cindy's "offending posts", I've stop offering the url as a link already. I'm going to remove it from my site. Tons of folks have taken the time to read it all, and decide for themselves what they think about the matter. I'm done with it. The "cover page" for my message board,, is *the message board*, by the way, and there's a link to it onthe main page of my "me stuff" site.
To show you I'm sincere I remove the offending page right away. If you check my site within the hour (3:00 PM PST),barring any sudden unexpected operating failures of my computer) you'll see the page is gone.
Just for future reference though, Eric? THE most effective approach to take with me about almost everything, when you want something from me, is direct one. Saying something like , "I want you to remove that page with the posts & crap about me and Cindy from your site. It looks to me like you're still unfriendly towards me when I see that" leaves no room for doubt about what you want, and shows strength and confidence. The other method you just used left me with the impression that I was being addressed by someone being manipulative and accusatory. I think that's a sign of poor communication skills. To say the least.
Bye for now.
Diana
Frank Church
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 13:29:8
Wish I had more time, but, Blaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg!!!!
Alejandro Riera
Chiacago, IL - Tuesday, February 11 2003 13:23:33
Glad to see you are alive and doing well. And I hear you on this whole nonsense about how moving helps you get rid of stuff. A yeara dna ahalf after I moved in to the new apartment and I am finally, truly, beginning to throw every single piece of detritus collected over this past decade and a half.
I just started getting rid of a whole bunch of three-quarter inch tapes containing raw footage of all the programs I produced as a volunteer for the local cable access station. Eight boxes worth of the babies. Am keeping the masters of course but the rest is going bye-bye. I also discovered that I had kept more than 15 years worth of invoices for everything and anything and that is slowly but surely being dispensed with as well as cassette tapes of music that my wife and I are too embarrassed to listen to anymore. All in the hopes of opening more space for my slowly growing DVD collection.
Alejandro
Paul Riddell
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 13:1:34
Either way, I'm also amazed at how much stuff was left in the house when Liz left (yeah, right: blame the ex for all of the fanboy stuff in your closet that you've been lugging around for the last decade), so this is just the beginning. I haven't even touched a 15-year magazine collection yet: since I'll get a hot clorox enema before I start writing again, I don't see any reason to lug around a literal 550-pound collection of magazines, zines, and other periodicals that I used to hang onto for "Research". I'm hanging onto the complete run of "Earth" and a few issues of "Natural History", but years and years of zines are going bye-bye.
Paul Riddell
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 12:53:11
Now, on the subject of plants, I've had a bit of fun with that for the last little while (unemployment and destitution will do that to you, and the local libraries are considered a waste when you don't need that much space to hold the accumulated works of Rush Limbaugh), so I've spent quite a bit of time working with carnivorous plants. Seeing native pitcher plants during my sojourn in Florida started the craving, but I came across a fairly decent site full of info about carnivorous plants and the flora themselves:
http://www.petflytrap.com/
This information is included as a public service to all who have had to sit through ignorant portrayals of man-eating plants in TV shows and films. (Don't get me wrong: I like the concept of man-eating plants. The problem is that they almost definitely wouldn't look like Venus flytraps, but then who gets creeped out at the thought of a man-sized sundew?) And for a followup, I'll be glad to bore everyone in the audience to death with a recitation of the idiocies in "Jurassic Park III"...
Bill Gauthier
New Bedford, MA - Tuesday, February 11 2003 12:44:4
Bill
Eric Martin
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 11:25:58
You may be fooling some people here, but not me. Later.
Joseph J. Finn
Chicago, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 11:7:29
The movie that Harlan is referring to is "Creepshow," an uneven anthology piece from 1982 and directed by George Romero. Mr. King wrote at least two stories, the kudzu of which is entitled "Weed." Not a great movie, but does have a nifty E.G. Marshall performance as an old rich man obsesses with cleanliness, who finds his condo has some new visitors.
Washu,
In this case, it's safe to say, I think it really is all about the Benjamins.
(What - like nobody else was thinking it?)
Regards,
Joseph
HARLAN ELLISON
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 10:3:2
There is a Stephen King kudzu short story. In fact, there's a movie themed to be "EC Comics"-like, in which that story appears as a segment, with Stephen as the guy being eaten by the kudzu.
And thank you for returning to the Good Diana mode I know we shall come to treasure.
Yr. pal, Harlan
Melissa Reeston
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 10:1:2
How are things for you, Pam, and the new baby?
Washu: I guess for me, it boils down to what name makes you feel most comfortable. To tell the truth, I like Scotty's use of "BOS". It makes for a moniker that's easy to know and I think it sets folks up to decide whether or not to read. I just use my name because I've got precious little time or interest in a nickname, or its creation.
Now, to take care of something I should've done some time ago:
P.A. Berman: Please accept my apologies for my rude conduct some time ago. It was unacceptable for me to lash out at you in that fashion, and I've felt badly about it ever since. Understand, my leaving the site was out of my dislike for my own conduct, not due to you.
Love to all, Melissa
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 9:59:11
Thanks for all the input on kudzu so far. I plan to look into any references anyone's given me, and respond to your individual posts later, after I get some desperatlely needed sleep. When I get the kudzu pages all tidied up and shiny looking I'll post the url so's you can go admire your contributions toward making the internet an all around cooler and snazzier place to visit.
I just got my very own message board. Please feel free to go post some entirely inappropriate (for the H. Ellison Webderland Message Board) messages there. You know you want to. You can posts pictures, and have avatars, and all that other glamourous stuff. I'm the boss of the message board, and I'm going to delete any pictures of people's asses that I find in there, but I'll be sleeping for most of the rest of today, so y'all can pretty much go crazy and get giddy without fear of censorship, for the next few hours anyhow. As of the moment Webderlanders are the only folks who will know about my message board. I'm telling you guys about it 'cause I think you're all special.
In a good way.
the url for the message board is:
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html
Bye for now.
Diana
P.S. That message board invite is to EVERYONE at this forum. As long as you don't put picture's of your (or anyone else's) "private parts" in there, I'll leave you alone to post what every you feel you want/need to. I promise. :=)
rich
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 9:27:34
Ditch it. Use your real name (it's Benjamin, isn't it?). I mean, it IS up to you, but you asked.
(This opinion coming from a man who apparently still doesn't know how to capitalize the first letter of his name.)
Lynn
Display of trust - Tuesday, February 11 2003 9:24:40
But you gotta pick just one middle initial. I see your signature and I think about strange twelve step meetings to cope with severe anime addictions.
L.
Rick Wyatt <rick@rickwyatt.com>
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 9:16:47
Matter of taste, though, and not a rule.
Rob
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 9:15:25
Truuuue. Soooo...what does that have to do with what we were discussing?
Lil' Washu (for the last time...?)
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 9:12:0
Should I drop the 'Lil' Washu' moniker once and for all? Up to this point, it's mainly been a device of playfulness, but maybe it's time to let the toys of my childhood go.
The decision is up to me, and in retrospect it is kind of irrelevant, but I'd just like to know if anyone else here would be happy or sad or indifferent to see that title vanish.
Lil' Washu
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 9:6:19
The ultimate death knell for any film student is the poison-laced quote, "I'm gonna be the next Steven Spielberg!"
Jay Smith
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 8:35:32
Good to read you! Welcome back! It's been too long.
Hope things are going well for you. Staying long?
Jay
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: kudzu, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 7:55:58
I don't know whether it's still running, because the Oregonian dropped it many years ago (I used to follow it in the Boston Globe), but if you comb your favorite used book stores you may be able to find a collection or two . . . and delight in the adventures of Kudzu, a sweet North Carolina white boy who yearns to be a writer when he grows up, his dingy aunt, his Uncle Dub who owns a garage, the airhead blonde cheerleader he worships (I forget her name), and best of all, the Reverend Will B. Dunn.
It's a great strip -- not as crazy as "Calvin and Hobbes" or "Bloom County," but in the same class for quality.
Melissa Reeston
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 7:52:42
Melissa Reeston
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 7:50:44
David: I've downloaded the Surfnetwork player and have booked the comp for 10 p.m., at the hubby's request. We'll have a review for you. It seems like a good player; sounds and performs better than Real by all accounts.
Immortality? I'd only do it if my family could go along (a kiss for the sweety of mine for thinking of us), and if that was agreed, I'd like to see the end of the universe; the slow blinking out of stars.
Love to all, Melissa
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Tuesday, February 11 2003 7:38:51
OUR ZOE!
Aced your exam, eh? Well, nobody surprised about that here.
A recommendation for an ACHIEVEMENT MEDAL already! You're in tall cotton now. All that AND a new MAN? Whoever heard of being spoiled in the military?
GOOD FOR YOU!
Give us details when you can. Where's he from, who're his people and would we all approve?
:)
Hey, I just read that 50 or so westerners/Americans have been given entry visas into Iraq. They're intent is to act as " human shields".
Since you have a direct dog in that fight I was wondering what you might think about that.
Good to hear from you, kiddo.
:)
Cindy
Zoë Rose
CA - Tuesday, February 11 2003 7:28:31
CINDY - Howdy to you too! I'm doing well. A bit tired of late, due to training and such, but my brain is being piled with information so I'm happy. Plus I aced my first exam, so that's good as well. Military has been treating me well - at my "temp" job (while waiting for a class spot to open up for me) they put me up for an achievement metal, which is really, really cool. Not sure I'll get it ("temps" don't do enough "firsts, only's, spearheaded's, etc), but just being put in for a metal is kick-butt. So I feel pretty good.
And lastly, I'm happily occupied with a relationship that is the neatest, best, most fun and longest one I've ever had - not saying much since I haven't got much of a history, of course - but I'm positively ebullient (word of the day) in that respect, for the time being. He's going to Thule, Greenland, though, and I'm off to Montana. Talk about long distance...
--Zoë Rose
Jay Smith
"Someone Has Stolen Your Afterlife!" - Tuesday, February 11 2003 7:20:58
www.zebrapix.com/immortal.html
rich
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 5:26:3
Take a trip to Alabama and you'll see a Kudzu That Ate The South documentary right before your eyes.
Jason,
"...and talked to him about [film] directly, instead of through the shield of a thesis or a theory, he made you Love Film That Much More."
Exactly. Too many times we encounter those that want to dissect a film like a frog and forget that it was a living, breathing animal. Reminds me of the commentary by some noted critic (can't remember her name) from Peeping Tom, dry and formal and so eager to Tell Great Things that I wondered if she had seen the same film I saw.
Chris L.,
Tarantino. I would agree with much of what you said, but for me, Tarantino never was about the storylines or the fancy broken narrative. I think Dogs is a good movie, but didn't quite understand the fervor over it. I love Pulp Fiction, but MOSTLY (shit, probably ONLY) because of the dialogue, though I'm not sure how much of that was Avary, who has gone on record as saying one should write everything down before speaking to Tarantino to prove that you said it first.
And, I think Jackie Brown shows a maturity in Tarantino as a filmmaker. I thought it was the weaker of the three he had made until I picked it up on DVD and saw it again and I think, now, it's his best. So I'm more than interested to see what he does with Kill Bill. (And for the record, Out of Sight, which came out the same year as Jackie Brown, is a much better film than Jackie. I mention this because both were Leonard novels and, though they are different, they touch the same themes and I would argue that you can compare the two films to see which one is better. Besides, Keaton played the same character in both of them, so there.)
Xanadu <X_a_n_a_d_u@yahoo.com>
iNeed an iNap... - Tuesday, February 11 2003 5:19:35
I had heard that the current, polycarbonate design of the iBook was a little "delicate", shall we say? I popped over to Apple.com to check out the specs - an adequate, if not particularly over-muscled beast. Then I wandered over to their Discussion area on iBooks (under the Support tab) - the number of vituperative comments regarding Apple and the iBook display set my facial hair on fire. After ridding the room of that burnt hair stench and wiping the smoke film from my glasses, I noted that Apple has a big problem with the hinge of the iBook and fraying connections, as well as backlight issues. (the handle is also a problem, but its nature limits the amount of collateral damage.)
Having dealt with a stubborn Apple Computer regarding a display issue in the past (15" Multi-Sync) - I cannot, in good conscience, recommend the current iteration of the iBook.
But... Given Apple's history, the NEXT generation of iBook, should kick everyone's butt. (Apple doesn't talk about future products AT ALL, so everything from here on is based on information gleaned from Mac rumors sites...)
The Next Generation of iBook is due out late 2003, early 2004 - it will be a redesigned beast, featuring the same kind of anodized aluminum shell sported by the current PowerBooks, a G4 processor, and the probably some of the new FireWire 800 connectors (it'll also probably NOT include the new USB2 connectors, since that is the "enemy's" [read Intel's] "competing" system)
If you need a portable sooner than that, I might suggest getting a refurbished PowerBook, with a DVD drive...
Hope it helps,
Bern
Jon Stover
Canada. Kudzu II - Tuesday, February 11 2003 4:1:1
The plant that invaded Ontario, Canada is purple loosestrife, non-indigenous bane of milkweed and thus bane of the Monarch butterfly too. Pretty, though.
Cheers, Jon
Diana
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 2:45:58
I just saw your post to me, I almost missed it. Thanks to you too.
Diana
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 2:26:21
Thanks for the title. That sounds like just the kind of thing I needed. I'm (finally) working on making some pages about kudzu ("The Plant That Ate The South")for my "me stuff" site. I wanted to have a few "Kudzu In Literature" titles to offer. I only know about "Redgunk Tales", (Apocalypse and Kudzu from Redgunk, Mississppi) by William R Eakin. (Anyone curious about that one can go read a review on it at the following url:
http://www.invisiblecitiespress.com/publications/redgunk.htm)
The story I mentioned in my last post that I remember reading, but don't remember the title of, takes place in some state in The South, in an urban environment. As I recall, there's been a mysterious occurrence. A friend of the hero has disappeared. Then a few other folks vanish without a trace. His pal lived in some run down shack near the outskirts of town. Kudzu was beginning to encroach on the city. At first that fact's presented as an incidental, but it turns out eventually that THERE'S SOMETHING LIVING IN THE KUDZU! I think it's a kind of shadow creature that's part of the plant. (I can't remember for sure) Anyway it's very evil, and it's eating people.
But I think I might be mixing a couple of stories up. I could have been reading two books at the same time. I do that.
I'm hoping some of that will sound familiar to somebody, and they'll let me know the title of it, and who wrote it. (???)
Bye for now
Diana
Chris L
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 1:31:39
Your sentiment regarding Tarantino precisely echoes my own.
When I first saw Pulp Fiction and then Reservoir Dogs (yeah, I know Dogs came first but that's not how I saw them) I was electrified. I thought directors fell into two categories - Tarantino and not-Tarantino. I thought he had reinvented the entire medium and the slew of books and critical drooling only reinforced my belief.
At almost the exact same time, I entered film school and began to watch and study films. I began to learn. And over the years, I would find myself spotting numerous incidents that were "just like Tarantino." Exceptin' of course they came first. Oh look The Taking of Pelham One Two Three has a Mr. White and Mr. Black and so on. Holy crow, The Killing has the same "groundbreaking" structure Pulp Fiction and Dogs had. And damn I know there's a movie I saw last year that has a shot that looks EXACTLY like the famous "suits" (the Dogs gang walking by the tracks to the tune of Little Green Bag) shot from Resrvoir Dogs.
So I've come to realize that Tarantino hadn't invented anything. As a matter of fact, let's be blunt about it. He flat-out ripped off other people's work and foisted it off as high art to an audience who didn't know any better (like me at the time.)
And that's not all bad. There is a certain talent in being able to synthesize (I'm taking the optimistic tone here) disparate sources of inspiration into your own work and make it fresh and personal. For me, that's where Tarantino's talent lies. I don't think he has a whole lot to say as evidenced by the fact he has only made one film since Pulp Fiction and the disaster stories regarding the shooting of Kill Bill are already piling up. But he was a guy who watched a lot of movies, loved movies and was able to put that love into his own work.
I once would have ranked Dogs and Pulp Fiction in my personal Top 10. I would likely not rate either in my Top 100 now and, in fact, Pulp Fiction has fallen a bit flat for me now though I still enjoy the raw nerve-jangling energy of Dogs.
But while I'm tempted to slam him just to balance out what I know my see as my excessive worship of him in a past life, that wouldn't be fair either. Nor will I hold him responsible for the execrable parade of Tarantino imitators who have tried to swim in his wake.
He may be a pretender and a faux-auteur but he had style and he made a couple good flicks. That ain't half bad.
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
Philly, - Tuesday, February 11 2003 1:27:33
Immortality carries with it a certain cachet; if you know a hail of bullets will not cut you down, then the idea of walking into some tyrant's presidential palazzo with murder in your heart is far less farfetched for one of mortal skin and mortal skein.
Amoral? No; rather, the extreme opposite: A fanatical morality. As I have said here before, I don't much care for the way the death penalty is presently administered, but I would have no problem, after careful consideration, with becoming the administrator of death for a nation of one: Me.
("I've got a little list ...")
Of course, there would have to be serious thought given to whom and how, simply because if you are walking the world as arbitrary assassin, your aim should be to make the world a better place; it would not do well to do away with one Saddam Hussein or Assad or Sharon or Britney Spears or George Lincoln Rockwell or Pol Pot, only to have someone as bad or worse filling the power vaccuum.
Death and reaving aside, immortality would give me time to follow a creative path as well, or even several: How good could I get at the guitar, or at writing, or sketching, with all of Time at my disposal? Even if Talent runs out, Skill can still get you a long way, after all.
Now. It would not be overly difficult to amass a small fortune as an immortal, though not entirely assured: I think that I would work with my monies to give back; to publish writers and sponsor artists and set up musicians and such so that good work is still around, no matter the style of the day.
Marriage would, sadly, be out; I have enough problems with overempathizing with others' pain right NOW. How much worse would it be to watch ones' loved ones wither and die, or to know you will not grow old with someone? Even if I could get over that problem, the thing which I most look forward to in life would be denied me: Being a father. If a wife's passing would so grieve me that I would forego wiving at all, I know I could not BEAR to watch a child die before I.
The only questions that really remain to this immortality gig would be those dealing with the extent of one's own humanity: Would I hunger? Feel Pain? Age? An unending lifetime spent inside a frail and useless body is no life at all.
Interesting; I wrote this as soon as I read the question; Eric and I seem to have several of the same ideas ...
DIANA: Kudzu plays an integral part in Stuat Woods' multigenerational saga CHIEFS, but if I explained it, it'd give away the book.
Rob
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 0:42:34
P.S.
One more type of character transformation story I forgot to add, which I really get off on, is the epiphany OR the pursuit of knowledge and the price that can come with that knowledge (whether it was sought or not).
(bearing in mind I discard the Star Wars or Tolkienesque framing; I'm not into those).
Rob
- Tuesday, February 11 2003 0:26:11
Yeah, blame it on my ADD but I generally prefer the pieces to fit, as it were; that doesn't mean I don't dig narrative rule-breaking and experimentation. I do; a LOT. But what does remain a constant for me is character transformation (bearing in mind there are many ways to present such progression or transgression). That's important to me; I pursue it.
We do have, on the other hand, characters we watch because we like their distinction and we like watching the world through their eyes, like Holmes, Columbo, or Philip Marlowe (this is what the pulps were all about). That's more like vicarious viewing, wherein the character provides us with almost some sense of sanctuary from the world. And I can certainly find my highs in that. Yet, this is a formula that can grow rigid fast. Thus, I am more often drawn to the question of how much a person can change given a set of events; human beings really only change in nature or their world view by necessity. How they effect their outcome by their own choices and actions - which, in turn, reflect who and what they are - once faced with a central dilemma can really intrigue me. These are questions I ask myself every day.
Not to be TOO unfair to him, but I TEND to give less credit to Tarantino; he drew from a pool of sources - breaking rules in ways that had already been broken (Kubrick, as you obviously know, being among those sources by way of The Killing, with its narrative dilations). Personally, I'm much more impressed with a rule-twister like Soderbergh. But as MANY directors today are scavanging old material unbeknownst to a detached public unfamiliar with anything made prior to the eighties, both these guys are a bit more inventive at it.
I don't know how much of the old stuff you've been into (putting Murnau aside); filmmakers who created the templates for 90% of what we see today. Lang (all highest points being in Germany; nothing he did in the U.S. returned to that level - though one or two films came close), Hitchcock, Bunuel, Eisenstein, Wilder,Huston,Mamoulian,Whale,Sturges and so on. When you've seen enough of that stuff you spot - almost shot-for-shot - nearly everything people like Spielberg, Burton, and Tarantino lifted from (and not even as ingeniously as past "proteges": Eisenstein was inspired by Lang, as was Bunuel when he saw Destiny; Hithcock, in turn, was influenced by Eisenstein...along with the Magic Realist art movement). See more of THAT stuff and you may not be as impressed with Tarantino.
Jason Michelitch <JasonAMichelitch@aol.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 23:52:43
--Cindy "
Well, gee, Cindy, you seem so...indifferent.
Anyway, here's a (probably) short installment in the ongoing tale of the Bard College Film Program, since it's almost 2 in the morning and I'll probably want to go to sleep soon (not yet of course...the party's still got a bit of lifeblood in it).
So, I think when last we left off, Your Intrepid Protagonist had decided to attend Bard College with all of its artsy trappings firmly in mind. Being of one mind with Chris in my tendency to respond with rolled eyes and foam at the mouth to the never-ending barrage of people who ask if I want to "be the next Spielberg" (sorry Cindy) I was eager to spend some time around a place where that question would almost certainly not be asked.
So...at Bard, the film program is somewhat rigid, and, though technically competetive in terms of who's allowed to continue in the program and the resources which are available, there's a surprising degree of camaraderie, it seems. Much of this stems from the fact that the school is only about 1250 people, many of whom live on the smallish campus. So everybody knows everybody, even moreso within each department.
At Bard, there are no film production classes designed for freshmen. It's possible, if one gets "in" with a professor or simply becomes adamant and dedicated about taking production freshman year, to take production freshman year. But the majority of us waited until sophomore year (the second semester of which I am currently in). First year, you are required to take one of two sections of a general "History of Cinema" course. I took both sections, one each semester. The first section focuses on the beginning of film and works it's way up to the introduction of sound. The second section is something of a crash course in everything afterwards, trying to touch as many of the bases as possible before everyone bum's-rushes the umpire at home plate and moves on to production. "Bases" covered or touched on included Renoir, Italian neo-realism, early Welles, early Hitchcock, film noir, French new wave, late Welles, late Hitchcock, German new wave, and various others that I either don't know the buzzwords for or don't remember right now...I'll go into more detail on the second half later. Right now I'll focus on the first half...Beginnings to Sound, or whatever you want to call it.
I was, as far as I'm concerned, extremely lucky my first semester at Bard, as I was in the first and apparently only year where the first section of History of Cinema was taught by Professor Scott MacDonald, a semi-visiting professor who now seems to be a fall semester regular and a spring semester no-show. Scott is something of a name in the field of avant-garde cinema. An (apparently) important author about the field, as well as a dynamite interviewer of avant-garde filmmakers (we read many of his published interviews as text for the class, and though that may sound arrogant of him, they were extremely helpful documents). He has been in the past and I think currently is from time to time very involved with the avant-garde world, from distribution to criticism to festivals to communications...pretty much everything short of actual production, his experience in which I have no knowledge of. He's thanked in enough credits that I assume he must have done SOMETHING, but I'm unclear as to all the details.
Anyway, under Scott's guiding hand, a basic history of cinema became, I think, something far more vital and interesting. Not that I wasn't eager to grab at ANY cinematic education I could possibly get, but Scott's class transcended the merely academic consideration of film that I've come to know and loathe since his class, and instead became about Loving Film, because Scott very clearly Loved Film, and if you "got" him (which I did, others didn't) and let him just show you all these films he was clearly dying to show you, and talked to him about them directly, instead of through the shield of a thesis or a theory, he made you Love Film That Much More.
(In case anyone out there is confused, I am nothing less than nuts about Scott as a teacher. I took a second class with him last semester and intend to take any class he happens to be teaching for as long as I'm at Bard.)
Anyway, Scott, being heavily involved in the cinematic avant-garde community, made the course a sort of combination History of Cinema and Mini-History of the Avant-Garde, giving us the proper historical treatment (Muybridge, Edison, Lumiere, Melies, Porter, Griffith, Eisenstein, Chaplin, Keaton, Vertov, Flaherty, Micheaux, and many, many more) combined with early avant-garde films ("Un Chien Andalou", "Entr'acte", "Meshes of the Afternoon"), all of it juxtaposed against the avant-garde cinema of the sixties and seventies (such as the work of Stan Brakhage, Hollis Frampton, Michael Snow, Yoko Ono, Taka Iimura, Peter Kubelka, Nathaniel Dorsky, more) much of which went "back to the well", so to speak, and drew on Muybridge and Lumiere and all of the early cinema that seemed to have been forgotten once sound turned film from a visual medium to a audio-dramatic medium. So not only did we get what I, in my limited opinion, consider to be a fairly substantial grounding in the history of the medium and the art form, but we were also exposed to countless films that many of us would probably never have seen otherwise (especially since Scott used his connections to get us 16mm prints of most of the films, which, for many avant-garde films, makes a world of difference in the viewing experience). Towards the end of the semester, we had a brief but enlightening bout with full-fledged sound film, considering such films as "M", "Blackmail", and "The Blue Angel" (seen in re-released 35mm print at the local art-house theater, Upstate Films) in regards to their use and dependency on sound.
So...there you have the inside info on possibly the most atypical History of Cinema class you could choose...though I know the professor teaching it this year, and though he's a little more film theory-intensive than I prefer, he seems to be screening, if not all the films we watched with Scott, a comparable list. Though it is, undoubtedly, not at all the same class.
Yeesh. So much for "probably short". I have, once again, written a MASSIVE AMOUNT on a subject that seems to be interesting about two people if I'm lucky...so I'm going to retire for the evening (morning).
When I come back, if all two of you are still with me, I'll describe how Scott's wonderful first semester ruined me for all other film professors, and also served me up on a platter of vulnerability for the following semester, which would have been somewhat lame on its own, but in comparison to Scott's just felt like it was conducted underwater.
Until next time, I remain
Your Humble Correspondent from Avant-Bard
--Jason
Chris L
- Monday, February 10 2003 22:50:45
As usual, I agree with a caveat. I don't need to see a character develop. That is one thing that is interesting to watch about a person but not the only thing. If the character doesn't develop (i.e. doesn't have an arc) I can be content, even thrilled, merely to learn about him through his behavior, through the manner in which he chooses to exist in time. I would argue that Travis Bickle doesn't develop at all. I know some people have taken the interpretation that Travis has learned where to direct his rage but I don't buy that. Paul Schrader doesn't either. He thinks Travis is a monster. Yet Travis is one of the most fascinating characters in the history of film for me merely because I want to watch him behave. His actions are inherently interesting. He is inherently interesting. He doesn't need to change or develop or learn a lesson to enhance further my interest in him.
**Well, of course we never want that at all. Once you initiate a series of events what follows should be directly attributable to the characters' behavior and actions.
[AND]
But if the story in a film IS character driven it tends to work for me only because of some inherent polarity from the outset. **
Again, agree with a caveat. It is also to easy for just films to fall into the trap of making "every piece fit." I like a lot of what M. Night Shyamalan has done but the most execrable aspect of his filmmaking is this jigsaw effect. We are supposed to be amazed at the end of Signs when we flash back to see how every moment in the film fits neatly into the puzzle. Instead, it only heightens the contrived sense of the story. Likewise, filmmakers often make facile choices. I liked the second act of Cast Away enough to recommend the film but c'mon, did he really have to be a Fed Ex executive. I can just imagine the pitch meeting - "Man, who would be the perfect guy to put in this situation? Yeah, I know, how 'bout a Fed Ex guy. He's used to organization (though we simply MUST put in an early scene to ESTABLISH how organized he is) and he'd really be challenged by being on this island. His job is to facilitate communication and now he's cut off from all communication. Gosh, the iront. Golly, what a perfect contrast."
Of course it is possible to do such things without seeming too contrived and I'd agree that Rocky is a good example.
But I really bridle at the fact that everything must fit together neatly as so often is the case with the Hollywood story. One thing I'll give Tarantino credit for is breaking somewhat from this tradition.
Jon Stover
Canada. Kudzu. - Monday, February 10 2003 22:41:57
Cheers, Jon
Rob
- Monday, February 10 2003 22:26:24
Ahhh, that would be my unless-a-character-is-really-unusual-eccentric-or-somehow-unique category.
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Monday, February 10 2003 21:33:7
I have found that if a film has characters that fascinate me-- it doesn't really matter what they're doing up to a point. Stephen King's people for instance-- they breathe, they bleed and they have real problems ( most of the time). It isn't the horror which draws me to his stories time after time after time-- it's his PEOPLE. Each one is so human that when something hurts, offends or effects them it makes me hurt too. They're REAL!! I think THAT is the KEY ingredient in any attempt to entertain or enlighten.
As far as my OWN screenplays... I've found that once the characters have found their voices they tend to walk and talk and go about their business without any help from me. It's more like watching than writing-- I just report what I see and hear... which is probably why I've been so wildly successful.
LOL!!
Cindy
Jay wrote;
"Colin's great. He just woke up with a howl and Pam's feeding him. I enjoy working nights and spending the days with him."
You're such a good guy.
:)
Cindy
JASON wrote;
"I think there's a bit of a distinction to be made between accessible films and films that you know people will like. While I find many avant-garde films to be overly dense and self-referential to the point of absurdity, at the same time I recognize that the narratives I long to write and direct will certainly not always appeal to a great many people - such are the perils of personal filmmaking (he said with all the pretensions allowed a sophomore film student)."
I don't see any pretense at all in you. As for what you wrote it makes sense-- you know who set me straight on that was
CHRIS-- who wrote,"
"Why make a film people won't want to watch?
Maybe because you want to make it? Sounds like a good reason to me."
CHRIS could'nt be more RIGHT about it and I couldn't have missed the mark by any broader margin.
KEEP THOSE BARD STORIES COMIN'PLEASE!
Cindy
Hello Zoe Rose-- how YOU been?
:)
Cindy
FOR ERIC who wrote;
"1) Go to Hollywood and try to get in the sack with the current hotties of the moment. I have eternity, so sooner or later I'm bound to get lucky."
You made me wake up my six year old! THAT was a good one.
:)
Cindy
OLAH Lynn!
:)
Cindy
Alejandro Riera
chicago, il - Monday, February 10 2003 20:56:15
I just wanted to say…what a great job Richard Dreyfuss did on "By His Bootstraps". I could not stop smiling and even laughed like a maniac at least four times. Oh, and what sweet, short beauty "The Choice" is.
Needless to say, I am enjoying 2000x very much so far and can hardly wait to get to Side 12 featuring Robin's Harlequin. I mean I could skip right ahead and listen to it but that would be like jumping to the final 40 pages of a good novel before finishing it. That would be cheating and I ain't no cheater, you know.
…Naaah, who am I fooling?
Alejandro
Rick Wyatt
- Monday, February 10 2003 19:20:17
(1) It's easily enough done, but a pain in the ass. 'nuff said.
(2) It's easily enough circumvented. You can spoof it, run a firewall that delivers an external IP of your choice, or simply log on from work or a friend's house.
(3) Most major dialups, like AOL or Earthlink, run phone banks and to cover all the possible IP combos you might get from, say, AOL Chicago, you have to block AOL Chicago.
(4) When you do it, people tend to get pissed off, and do stupid shit to you. I don't care enough about filtering here to make it worth people doing stupid shit to me.
Rob
- Monday, February 10 2003 18:20:7
"But to the extent there is a plot, I greatly prefer the plot to be generated from the choices the character makes rather than as a series of exogenous events imposed on the story in mechanical fashion."
Well, of course we never want that at all. Once you initiate a series of events what follows should be directly attributable to the characters' behavior and actions. If it isn't shaped that way you get stuck with what we call gimmicks and cheap plot devices.
"I agree but I would still hesitate at calling plot a necessity"
No. Just a preference of mine...so long as great character development is the result.
But if the story in a film IS character driven it tends to work for me only because of some inherent polarity from the outset. The first Rocky worked because it was about a guy with talent living at the bottom of the food chain; we knew he had the potential to elevate given the proper guide (in the person of Burgess Meredith). Remarkably, each character in that film influenced the other; elements were tightly bound. My empathy as a viewer was there because of these striking contrasts. This is a different kind of subjectiveness we can achieve in film.
Joseph J. Finn <josephfinn@mac.com>
Chicago, - Monday, February 10 2003 17:38:9
Regards,
Joseph
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Monday, February 10 2003 17:12:58
Does anyone know of any fictional works (short stories or novels) that feature kudzu to some extent? I read a science fiction-y mystery at some point that did, but god only knows what the title of it is or who wrote it. I sure can't remember.The story doesn't necessarily need to be all about kudzu, but it should play a part in things somehow.
Also, if anyone has a recipe for kudzu wine they're willing to share with me I'd appreciate it.
Diana
Velvet <idontneednosteenking@email.com>
City of the Tired, State of Despair, The Cold Country - Monday, February 10 2003 16:58:34
And that's all I have to say right now....
Velvet, feeling like the ORIGINAL fool.....
Velvet <idontneednosteenking@email.com>
City of the Tired, State of Despair, The Cold Country - Monday, February 10 2003 16:57:44
What, you can't block senders by IP address?
Just a thought.
Velvet (Offline to watch "Another Country" on CBC. Most people have soap operas; I have North of Sixty. So sue me.)
Velvet <idontneednosteenking@email.com>
City of the Tired, State of Despair, The Cold Country - Monday, February 10 2003 16:57:44
What, you can't block senders by IP address?
Just a thought.
Velvet (Offline to watch "Another Country" on CBC. Most people have soap operas; I have North of Sixty. So sue me.)
Velvet <idontneednosteenking@email.com>
City of the Tired, State of Despair, The Cold Country - Monday, February 10 2003 16:57:39
What, you can't block senders by IP address?
Just a thought.
Velvet (Offline to watch "Another Country" on CBC. Most people have soap operas; I have North of Sixty. So sue me.)
Zoë Rose
CA - Monday, February 10 2003 16:28:18
I've been contemplating getting an iBook lately. Don't need a PowerBook (pops says I wouldn't even be able to scratch the surface of its usefulness, and he's right), or anything too terribly fancy-shmancy. But being in the military I will be travelling, so I want something portable (and something to watch DVDs with on an airplane - that's just so COOL).
I was raised on Macs (I remember the baby Mac we had - so cute) and, having learned to type at age 7 or 8, promptly failed handwriting in my classes. Go figure. When I went to college everyone had Windows machines so I've been "trained" on them. At the moment I own an old crappy Compaq that I spent maybe $200 on.
I've been saving up and have looked at a couple iBooks - any opinion on them? I'd like to return to Mac stuff - I don't use many programs that are Windows-only, and my needs are simple. Any idea if they'll be coming out with a G4 processor in the iBook anytime soon?
--Zoë Rose
Chris L
- Monday, February 10 2003 16:14:21
This has the "plot device" Rob mentions - a man is captured and put in prison. The entire film is about the man's behavior in this situation. While the film is often described as not having a plot, I think you could also look at it as a 3 act structure in which the first and third acts are severely truncated - the first act, in fact, taking place just before the film begins and the third act consisting entirely of the final shot of the film. 99% of the screen time is devoted to what would be considered the second act in standard structure.
Hadn't thought of it that way before but I think that could be an accurate way to look at A Man Escaped.
Chris L
- Monday, February 10 2003 15:47:58
Great post. I have some reactions.
**But...unless a character is really unusual, eccentric, somehow unique, it’s my feeling, more often than not, the medium relies on a compelling plot device. I am absorbed more by situations that bring something unique out of the characters rather than the exploration of a relationship in a family household or, say, the experiment of an intimate 90-minute talk between two protagonists in a restaurant.**
I agree but I would still hesitate at calling plot a necessity - or rather that it is not necessary for the plot to be the primary determinant of the story.
Let's again take the exampleof Stranger than Paradise. Reviews of this film famously noted it has no real plot and so on but there is still, to use your words, a "plot device" introduced into the story. That device is the introduction of a new charcter - 16 year old cousin Eva from Hungaria - into the life of the main character Willie. Classically speak, we get the status quo (Willie's normal life) and then the "inciting incident" or "point of attack" - Eva comes into the picture. In the case of Stranger, Eva does not immediately break up the status quo but rather winds up absorbed into it. In a standard structure, we would vault into the second act shortly after her arrival. In this case, she lingers around in the first act and it is only the memory of her that later catapults Willie and Eddie into action (a year later, they leave for Cleveland to go visit Eva.)
I agree that "just" a character study (a la Dinner with Andre) can be less than satisfying. But to the extent there is a plot, I greatly prefer the plot to be generated from the choices the character makes rather than as a series of exogenous events imposed on the story in mechanical fashion. This can work sometimes - the plane crash in Castaway which strands him on the island - but often produces a stale, predictable story with uninteresting characters. Generally speaking, I find most of Spielberg's work to fall into this category though I understand many disagree.
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: scoundrels and substractors, - Monday, February 10 2003 15:44:10
> the project, a jerk of the highest caliber, has excised
> me frequently, simply out of pique.
You should have told him: NO PIQUE-ING!!!
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: Radio Harlan Albemuth, - Monday, February 10 2003 15:42:18
Fantastic Imaginings: An Anthology of VisionaryLiterature [UNABRIDGED]by Stefan Rudnicki (Editor), Harlan Ellison (Introduction), Ben Bova (Introduction), Robert Silverberg, John Crowley
List Price: $32.00
Price: $22.40 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details.
You Save: $9.60 (30%)
Availability: This item will be released in February 2003.
Edition: Audio Cassette
Publisher: Fantastic Audio; ; Unabridged edition (February 2003)
ISBN: 1574535420
Book Description
This definitive collection of science fiction and fantasy explores the key imaginative roots and their later literary permutations. The author list alone reads like a literary Who's Who, and includes many writers not primarily known for their forays into the fantastic. Organized by topic, rather than simple chronology, this volume allows the listener to trace the history of robots, aliens, and apocalypses up to some of their most recent manifestations.
Jon Stover
Canada - Monday, February 10 2003 15:11:7
Plot/drama/film: Good heavens, I'd agree with Rob about character driving modern theatre, except to add that Shakespeare's still a great case study in the comings and goings of plot -- Hamlet's a mess, but I don't think Hamlet endures because of narrative or structure; Othello's really tight and 'stageable.' And Timon of Athens, as Orwell once noted, reads really well but is almost no-one's darling. My own hilarious career as a theatrical producer did teach me one thing at least -- if your stage manager doesn't know where to purchase a blue light bulb and instead tries to get by by dipping white light bulbs in an ineffectual blue dye, you may be in trouble.
Lynn: No hurry, obviously -- and you've already commented at length on situation.
Cheers, Jon
Casual Observer...sort of <recilc@hotmail.com>
Berkeley, CA U?S - Monday, February 10 2003 15:0:46
HARLAN ELLISON
- Monday, February 10 2003 14:27:54
Damned if I know how much "Ellison" you'll get on those two new audios. The MILLENNIUMx thing is an amalgam of pieces from the NPR radio series, with my intros and hosting throughout (I believe). The problem with all those shows is that the Exec on the project, a jerk of the highest caliber, has excised me frequently, simply out of pique. But it does have me and Robin Williams doing "'Repent, Harlequin...'" The other one is, I believe a book and audio edited by Stefan Rudnicki, my producer on spoken word, and my friend. Are you sure that was an audio you saw listed, and not a book?
Yr. pal, Harlan
Lynn
Immortality. - Monday, February 10 2003 14:12:24
Hehehe. He said Pumpkins. ::grin::
I don't if you wouldn't feel any pain. Where would be the fun in writing that story? Oh, you weren't talking from a storyteller's point of view? Hmm.
Frankly, Washu, I'm with Scott on this one. How could I savor eternity without my loved ones? Forget it. I'd rather rot.
But if we could make him immortal too, then... Travel. That'd take up the first few centuries. By triple masted schooner, up every major river in the world. The Amazon, The Mississippi, The Nile, The Congo, The Thames, The Rhine, The Danube, The Tigris & Euphrates, The Ganges, The Yangtze, The Yellow River. (Does Australia have any major rivers worth seeing? I can't remember off the top of my head.) Then I'd start on the small ones.
L.
Eric Martin
- Monday, February 10 2003 13:55:9
Ok, presuming I retain my swaggering good looks and sculpted, kick-ass bod...
1) Go to Hollywood and try to get in the sack with the current hotties of the moment. I have eternity, so sooner or later I'm bound to get lucky.
2)Go to commando school, train with the best, and spend a few years offing the bigger creeps in the world, fostering world peace through selective assassination. Uh, I can't feel pain if caught and tortured, right? Or If I'm into peace and love, just slipping enough LSD into their wine might do the trick...
3)Read ALL of Harlan Ellison's stuff, even the junk he wrote for cash back in the 50s. Book up on the rest of the Shakespeare, Romantic poets, and all those bleeding Russians that I've not gotten around to yet, being so busy writing posts on webderland.
4)Become a master piano player, like the world has never seen, and then shock the straights by appearing at my Berlin Philharmonic debut in a duck suit.
5)Finally get my pumpkins to grow larger than softballs.
Lil' Washu
- Monday, February 10 2003 13:47:59
Alejandro Riera
Chicago, Il - Monday, February 10 2003 13:47:47
I just received my very own copy of 2000x. These are the actual radio play adaptations Harlan worked on about two years ago that were broadcast in some NPR stations. Robin Williams plays the Ticktockman and (Harlan may jump in to correct me here), HE himself plays the Ticktockman's nemesis.
As far as I am concerned, worth every penny. I have been waiting two years to listen to these babies and now I have them in my hands. MINE ALL MINE I TELL YA ALL MINE!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Insanely yours,
Alejandro
Lynn
Spelling correction - Monday, February 10 2003 13:22:31
Sorry, just had to correct the spelling error.
L.
Lynn
Subj: Quit picking on the kid - Monday, February 10 2003 13:21:28
"Having used the babel fish as proof that God does not exist, Man went on to prove black is white and promptly got himself killed at the next zebra crossing." ~Douglas Adams (paraphrased) "Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy"
Rob
- Monday, February 10 2003 13:16:20
Have to rattle this off fast but I've a few responses to your post about plot, story, and character.
Whether dealing with plot or character-driven stories time, as you indicated, is the key device in film narrative. While tools in the canon encompass a wide range of devices - including narrative discontinuity, authorial intrusion, and subjective transformation - time in progression, continuity, and inversion provides the connective tissue for the story. There's an internal logic to the plot's structure from the character's point of view and there is an order in which that logic is revealed to the audience. We even have the optional approach of mise-en-abyme (film within film) to tell simultaneous stories. But...unless a character is really unusual, eccentric, somehow unique, it’s my feeling, more often than not, the medium relies on a compelling plot device. I am absorbed more by situations that bring something unique out of the characters rather than the exploration of a relationship in a family household or, say, the experiment of an intimate 90-minute talk between two protagonists in a restaurant. But that’s just me. The so-called "character study" is as tired as the recycled plots. Yet, you can have a compelling situation that leads to a dramatic transformation in the characters OR a tired plot that brings something unique out of the characters (e.g., In the Heat of the Night or Anatomy of a Murder). But, usually, a character study without the backdrop will not achieve the subjective power a film needs to have its full effect; it isn’t like a novel, which automatically gets inside the character's head - enabling us to see the world through his or her eyes. In film we have to infer what the world is like through the character’s eyes. Depending on how we present cause-and-effect, the challenge becomes "how subjective CAN we make this for the viewer?"
Even though Aristotle said something like, "in drama you can eliminate characters entirely and still have a plot", modern theater, on the whole, really relies entirely on character. ENTIRELY. Miller's Death of a Salesman, Streetcar Named Desire by Williams, and Ibsen’s Ghosts or Enemy of the People...in ALL of ‘em relationships are focused on with minimization of plot (since dialogue often provides the backstory for each character so we understand why he or she is going through the emotional state unfolding before us: theater’s version of backflashing). By contrast, more often than not, film needs at least the core of a plot to catalyze the drama. Any film by Hitchcock, Lang, or Carol Reed uses the core of a plot to bring out of characters what we otherwise wouldn’t see. After watching Lang’s fucking brilliant Testament of Dr. Mabuse - which uses a triptych structure - I’m even more enamored of this approach. Even what is essentially a character study often relies on a premise.
Then there's the theme-oriented film, which has its own way of fusing elements of plot and character. In the metaphysical Je T’Aime by Resnais, the protagonist (not unlike the lead in Solaris) must relive some of the highest and darkest moments of his life when he is hurtled back in time for one minute. The film is entirely dependent on sophisticated editing methods.
So, "little dramas", as it were, almost never do it for me in film (don’t worry; someone can always rattle of some legit exceptions). (Lots n'lots of student films I've seen are unintentionally laughable parodies of the "little drama", wherein characters cry and scream pathologically without any apparent need to). They often don’t take advantage of the medium to draw in the viewer. Narrative is a river. Characters move along it and change in its twists and turns. But studying the character’s reactions to the events, whether it’s a series of downfalls or ascents or an arc joining the two points (Ace in the Hole, A Face in the Crowd, Barry Lyndon), compels me more than dropping me in the middle of an already-existing relationship that demands my patience before I know whether or not I should care about these people. But das jus' me.
Eric Martin
- Monday, February 10 2003 13:14:27
Ok, so that means that a) you are no longer composed of biomass, and b)you neither ingest nor excrete energy as part of some life cycle and c) since anything like this does not exist in the universe, you'd not only be unseeable, but unknowable, not just to all of us, but to yourself as well. You'd have no mind, or thoughts (no, you're not the current President), so you would not exist.
Which I guess is like living forever.
Lil' Washu
- Monday, February 10 2003 12:51:0
Immortal. As in ageless AND indestructable. Completely immune to Death itself in all of it's forms.
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 12:29:36
Oh, and I might as well mention that about two weeks ago, I sent Faisal some episodes of _Mystery Science Theater 3000_. Lord knows what his students'll make of them...
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: question for HE regarding audio work, - Monday, February 10 2003 12:8:8
This morning's email brought a notice from Amazon about the impending release of two more audio projects in which you were involved:
1. Fantastic Imaginings: An Anthology of Visionary Literature, with Rudicki, Ellison, Bova, Silverberg, Crowley
2. 2000X: Tales of the Next Milennia [sic-Amazon], with Bradbury, Vonnegut, Ellison, Heinlein, Richard Dreyfuss (reader)
They're a little short on any other details, though. It says "introduction" after your name on the first listing, no other details on the second, although the cover art lists Charles Durning, Arte Johnson, Avery Schreiber (what a pleasure to see those two names again!), and Robin Williams among the readers, and you among the authors. Did you do JUST the introduction on "Fantastic Imaginings"? Did you do any reading on "Tales of the Next Millennia"? Just how much Ellison do we get if we divest our hard-earned shekels on these recordings?
Oh, and BOS:
Since you appear to have the capability of picking up Montreal stations, you might try to see if you can hear me tonight on Dr. Laurie Betito's show "Passion," about 10:15 p.m. your time, on CJAD Montreal. They're going to interview me about my book for about a half hour.
BOS
- Monday, February 10 2003 11:50:38
Two different radio sources, CFTR 680 - Toronto, and CKAC - Montreal, are both carrying soundbites from John Ashcroft, praising the effort and co-operation of Canadian Solicitor Generals in their roles in the war on terrorism.
Not that the praise scares me, it's the person doling out the kudos. Sort of like getting thanks from the KKK for "efficient work in solving race relations issues".
Jay: Great to hear, and hoping being Daddy remains the coolest. Enjoy him, and remember; they grow up.
BOS
Chris L
- Monday, February 10 2003 11:38:46
Jay
- Monday, February 10 2003 11:37:16
That leads me to believe I'd suffer some Rod Serlingan fate like being locked in a safe at the bottom of the ocean forever, or crushed under an overpass. Infinity will mean a lot of fun pscyhosis-inducing problems like hurdling into space above Mars after some union wag forgets to seal the airlock properly and I have to skip around the Martian atmophere for a few hours before landing on the inhospitable planet surface. That, of course, is after watching the family, offspring, their offspring, governments, civilizations rise and fall and then ultimately having to deal with Morlocks and a sun ballooning up like a fat Elvis... Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged got it right...I'd have to some long-term project that would span millennia.
Chris L
- Monday, February 10 2003 11:36:7
I really like Jarmusch too. I have spent the last few weeks with him, metaphorically speaking, as I'm doing a presentation on the reception Stranger Than Paradise got in its initial release. I've read a lot of interviews with him - even got to see the Cannes' press conference included on the new (and highly recommended) Down by Law DVD from Criterion.
It's amazing how quickly Jarmusch was granted his status as unofficial leader of the American independent film scene. And how he's managed to hold onto it though one could contend that independent film like Jarmusch makes barely exists anymore - now it's the Tarantino model and, no knock on Tarantino, but something like Pulp Fiction or even the recent Greek Wedding, is hardly my idea of independent film.
Wanna see some depressing numbers?
$12 million. That's the SUM TOTAL in domestic box office Jarmusch's films have raked in.
Multiply that number by 4 to get $48 million. You still haven't reached the total ($52 million) Scooby Doo made on its opening weekend.
Multiplexes should be a kill-free zone. Just pick off those sons of bitches right as they're coming out of the theater. You're only doing the world a favor.
I recommend picking up Jim Jarmusch Interviews if you're interested in the man - he has a lot of insightful things to say and you can see the proof that he has stayed true to everything he said back in the early 80's.
Jay
- Monday, February 10 2003 11:25:22
Colin's great. He just woke up with a howl and Pam's feeding him. I enjoy working nights and spending the days with him.
The GL ring would have been grand. I know it must be hard for Paul to part with it.
Li'l Washu -
Does that mean we're given special immortal immunities like only being killed if our heads are cut off or crushed in a machine press?
BOS
- Monday, February 10 2003 11:4:52
BTW, how goes life with the newly minted Smithster, Colin?
Washu: Wouldn't take immortality: no point to life if one doesn't expect it to end. Besides, if the family couldn't go with me, I'd turn it down flat.
Wouldn't mind being able to make my Lantern ring do its thing, however...
BOS
Faisal A. Qureshi
San Antonio, Cuba - Monday, February 10 2003 10:54:47
FAQ
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 10:26:24
I gotta nitpick. Does God's pronouncement mean that we just won't grow old and die? Or that we are actually _indestructible_? Can we experience extreme conditions without discomfort?
In other words, I want to know if I can take a stroll down to the _Titanic_ without feeling like I'm being crushed or suffocated. (Might be fun to spell _FUCK YOU JIM CAMERON_ in the wreckage.) Or, hitch a ride on the _top_ of a 747. Or volunteer for the first manned Mars Mission, thereby reducing life-support requirements tremendously.
Or, taking a note from the estimable Tom Servo... How about if I get a lushly vegetative island somewhere, and I offer a reward to anyone who can visit the island and hunt me down.
But as for that _first day_... maybe I'd start reading Tolstoy.
Jason Michelitch <JasonAMichelitch@aol.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 10:22:11
CHRIS
I agree pretty much whole-heartedly with your statements regarding story and plot...Strangers in Paradise is a wonderful film, Jarmusch is one of my favorite contemporary directors.
CINDY
I think there's a bit of a distinction to be made between accessible films and films that you know people will like. While I find many avant-garde films to be overly dense and self-referential to the point of absurdity, at the same time I recognize that the narratives I long to write and direct will certainly not always appeal to a great many people - such are the perils of personal filmmaking (he said with all the pretensions allowed a sophomore film student).
I'd love to talk about this more in depth, but I gotta jet, so those are the cliffs notes to my brain right now.
I'll throw more ridiculously long Bard stories at you later.
Til we meet again,
--Jason
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 10:16:8
The letter-writer asked Ebert if this footage was real or not: he'd always thought it was an urban legend. Ebert replies that everyone believed that, even George Clooney... until Chuck Barris produced the actual videotape of the event.
NOW: Anyone want to ask Chuck Barris if he has the tape of Harlan's appearance on _The Dating Game_?
Lil' Washu
- Monday, February 10 2003 10:14:3
Here's a playful suggestion for 'Topic/Discussion of the Day':
You wake up this morning, and you suddenly see God sitting on a chair directly in front of you. (Description is redundant here. It's GOD. Use your imagination). At that moment, God says:
"FILL IN THE BLANK, I bequeath unto you the gift of everlasting immortality. You shall witness the very end of time, and beyond. So there."
POOF, God's gone.
Now...how would you celebrate your first day as an immortal?
(This is a somewhat inverted version of the traditional 'what would you do on your last day on Earth?' question.)
Jay Smith
Bah.... - Monday, February 10 2003 9:54:7
Jay
Finder
- Monday, February 10 2003 9:43:42
Lynn
Subj: IT Grunt Reporting - Monday, February 10 2003 9:32:14
I respect that the user has to get a task done and that the machine is merely the tool to accomplish that task. But a car is merely a tool to accomplish a task. You still have to learn to drive. And if you're going to be driving in a road rally, you'd better be prepared to take some specialized training. Admittedly, I'm the one in the department that all the difficult users end up coming to, because I have been successful at breaking advanced tasks down into simple procedures. And I end up with some of the most difficult, most stubborn users in this company. (The admin we have that's been here since "We processed all these loan payments in a card file, and did the amortizations by hand!" ::groan::) They like me. They come find me because I don't treat them like they're stupid. I treat them like they don't know what's going on and I'm here to explain it to them.
But you have to be willing to learn. That's the key.
L.
Eric
- Monday, February 10 2003 9:25:37
As the head of an IT department, I would add that the rank and file of any staff tend to be the most flexible and understanding when it comes to tech problems (well, there's always one or two exceptions). It's the top end where we have to spend the most touchy-feely time, since these people are used to having everything done for them.
The one thing we have to contend with, especially with the top end, is the ambulance mentality; that the IT staff is sitting around like your local firehouse, waiting for the phone to ring so we can dash to your desk, all sirens screaming. Generally we are pretty busy with other projects, some of which have to get done soon, and so we play triage between those issues and workstation "emergencies."
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 9:2:47
First of all, if you have _any_ aptitude with computers, you're put in a bind. Your skills enable to you exploit the machine in new and novel ways, which means that much of your work can be performed more efficiently. The down side of this is that your employer now regards such higher-level skills as his _due_ for your salary, and if you can't continue to perform technical miracles, that's just an indication of bad faith on your part.
You also become the resident expert for technical questions. Yes, I know, most companies have IT departments which are supposed to handle help calls and bug fixes. But IT departments are usually swamped-- they're always being asked to buy new equipment, set it up, provide support to the top executives, and maintain the Internet crap like spam filters and server backups and virus protection. The result is that IT departments just don't have the _time_ or the _manpower_ to help the administrative people. After all, isn't that what help files are for?
(This also reinforces an insular culture among IT people. They have to deal with sophisticated technical issues, but they have to answer to executives who have no technical expertise. A lot of techies develop the attitude that non-techies are simply idiots-- rather than overworked people who didn't have or couldn't cultivate that particular aptitude.)
So administrative people are expected to develop high-level understanding of the applications installed on their systems. This can be done, and I've worked at places where some methods were standardized-- this enabling _every_ secretary to, say, perform a mail merge. But once software developers come out with a new version of the program used, these efforts can be rendered obsolete, or even incomprehensible. (For example, Microsoft Word used to perform mail merges simply and effectively, and more or less reliably. Now, unless one goes through the process to understand DDE links, there's no reliability to its mail-merge system.)
And developers don't seem to pay attention to what the trench-level user needs. They do pay attention to what _executives_ want. So, things like PIM programs tend to be directed at the power-user who manages all of his/her own stuff, like his cell phone list, project management, calendar, and the like. But it's the secretary who has to work with these things, and frankly, many PIMs are extremely deficient in the information-sharing area. (In other words, they're designed for executives who like to think that they won't need a secretary-- which means that the majority of executives who _know_ they need secretary wind up foisting poorly-designed programs onto their staff.)
Alex Krislov <Alexkrislov@cs.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 8:49:40
Speaking of compliments, I meant to thank Harlan, once again, for the latest recommendations. I chose to sample "Hot Club of San Francisco" with their eponymous album. I hadn't gotten through the second cut --a rendition of "Nature Boy" so sweet, it makes your heart throb-- before I had to have the whole collection. So, Ellison, when my kids miss their next meal because I've spending too much on albums, it's your fault. Feel free to chuckle maliciously.
--Alex
Alex Krislov <Alexkrislov@cs.com>
- Monday, February 10 2003 8:31:19
A comment on the hassles of posting to the net. Our patron speaks for many of us, not just relatives neophytes at computer use. I lost a big goddamn message last week. At first I shrugged and started over, and then I suddenly said, "Oh, fuck this," and just cancelled. if it happens to me, after over two decades on these damn machines, it can happen to anybody. One author to whom I sent interview questions had the same hassle last week--he had the answers all set to go, and lost them. He has since rewritten them and sent them, so I can put the interview on my webpages soon. But think about this--between us, he and I probably have thirty to forty _years_ of computer experience. It's not the individual--it's the damn system. After all this time, BBS still ain't ready for prime-time.
Or to quote Steve Levy on his days using typewriters:
"I never spent a whole morning installing a new ribbon. Nor did I subscribe to 'RemingtonWorld' and 'IBM Selectric User.' I did not attend the Smith-Corona Expo twice a year. I did not scan the stores for the proper cables to affix to my typewriter, or purchase books that instructed me how to get more use from Liquid Paper."
I love computers, half the time, but they're still a pain in the ass. Believe it.
Lynn
eBay sellers - Monday, February 10 2003 8:14:18
Thank you for the fine advice. It really is pretty simple, isn't it? I'm still a bit apprehensive. And for those of you anticipating interesting Hatfield schwag, guess what. We're getting rid of the crap and making room for the cool stuff. I've also got a bookshelf to clear.
Having a one bedroom apartment is like living on a boat. You go shopping and have to calculate whether or not you have room for whatever it is you buy. So, spring cleaning, here I come!
L.
sertsa
Oracular properties of dictionary.com's Word of the Day - Monday, February 10 2003 8:10:57
Saturday: http://tinyurl.com/5m3p
Sunday: http://tinyurl.com/5m3q
Monday: http://tinyurl.com/5m3r
~ s e r t s a ~
BOS
- Monday, February 10 2003 8:9:49
Mel occasionally sells some of her unsold goods (after a few incidents involving mail and phone orders where customers started yanking Mel around, she decided on a "actually see the customer, and cash only" sales policy) on Ebay, and has done quite well with the fifty or so items we've put up. Had only one customer complaint, a chipped lid on a teapot that had occurred during shipping, which was promptly handled. We don't hang out in the community, we simply go for the business.
I've asked Mel about setting up a website of her own, rather than cutting in others on her share of profit; she gives me a look like I'm one born of Satan.
Ah, my sexy little luddite...I do loves her, yep yep.
BOS
Lynn
Family History - Monday, February 10 2003 8:6:0
Thank you so much for asking that question.
I had no idea.
The date of the speech you referenced, (JFK, Rice University: http://www.nootrope.net/kennedy.html) is September 12, 1962. And I never knew that that one, pivotal, inspiring speech happened at Rice. Both of my parents graduated from Rice in June 1963, so that would have been the beginning of their senior year. As many of you already knew, my dad was with the space program from 1963 through 1987. We moved to California in 1984 because my dad was on the first wave of people from NASA for the west coast shuttle program. (For the curious, orbiters launched with an intended polar orbit requires a big drink to fall in, should anything go wrong.)
I have a call in to my dad, to get the nitty gritty details. I know he has photos he took of Kennedy in Houston the day before he went to Dallas. I know a lot of my parents' hopes and fears were locked up with him, as personally as if he'd been a family friend. Now I guess I know a little bit more about the 'why'.
Jon~
I haven't forgotten about your questions re: Columbia. I'm going to have to work up to that one, if you don't mind. It's still a bit raw in my heart. I'll work on it and definitely post my thoughts here.
re: Iraq vs NKorea~
As for comparing threats, Iraq has no big brother. North Korea has China, and a billion bodies already subject to famine. You do the math.
More later,
L.
David Loftus <dloft59@earthlink.net>
SUBJ: we choose to go to the moon, - Monday, February 10 2003 7:45:14
JFK, Rice University speech.
Wish I could reel off the date from memory, too, but I can't even remember whether it was the summer of 1961 or the following year.
Nicely delivered as well as written (anybody know who penned that one?).
Lil' Washu
- Monday, February 10 2003 7:10:47
I can finish Ellen's scenario,just like the other four, except I can never make that spiritual barometer -whatever the heck you call it - go white. But if you say you can still complete the 'Endgame' scenario with all five characters, then that's okay-dokey. Thanks for the tidbit.
Into the heart of AM I leap...
Eric Martin
- Monday, February 10 2003 6:22:10
Sure, they've done shitty things to their competitors, but since when is that a surprise in capitalism? As if Apple, Netscape, Novell or Sun wouldn't have done the same thing, if they had the chance. The way I see it, it's a family squabble between tech companies. Why the public is so interested is beyond me.
Gunther Schmidl
- Monday, February 10 2003 5:56:41
and here I thought he was a derelict metal singer who sold his soul to MTV.
Finder
- Monday, February 10 2003 5:1:53
Edward Duck <howardtduck@mail.bigpond.com>
Sydney, NSW Australia - Monday, February 10 2003 2:43:21
Hi Alex
Hope you don't mind a complete stranger playing spelling policeman, but the preferred spelling is "Aussie". Ozzie was an ostrich. Or a pink duck... :-)
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Monday, February 10 2003 2:24:52
Now that you mention it I did use some of those arrow head looking things in the post.
Diana
Chris L
- Monday, February 10 2003 0:42:26
Thanks for your post. I admit I'm surprised to hear about Bard's emphasis on non-narrative film. Every film school I've been to or heard about has been almost completely deaf to anything non-narrative based. I hope you are able to receive the support and guidance you deserve - you're paying your money and you have the same right to make the movies you want to as anyone else does. Demand that they support YOUR vision, not theirs. However, if Bard doesn't work out, you can take comfort in the fact that most other film schools are likely to be more receptive to your interests.
Cindy said:
**Like you for me film IS all about the story. Why make a film that you know ahead of time most people won't want to watch? **
Why make a film people won't want to watch?
Maybe because you want to make it? Sounds like a good reason to me.
As for the story bit, I kind of agree as long as we make a distinction between story (what it's about) and plot. For me, the plot-obsessed films of Hollywood (yes, I'm saying that about even the moronic plots in Hollywood films) do little to take advantage of the various aspects the medium of film offers. A lovely film like Stranger Than Paradise may not have much of a so-called "plot" - but that doesn't mean it isn't about something and isn't a deeply felt, fully realized work.
I like to quote something Ebert wrote about plots and about Bresson: "Why is it that we depend so desperately on plots to keep movies moving along? [Wayne] Wang's first two films made it clear that plotting was not his strength and probably not even his interest. He is one of those filmmakers, like Agnes Varda, who is oriented toward episodes and behavior, toward moments in time when the characters reveal themselves by being transparently themselves, instead of units in a mechanical story.
[cut]
Robert Bresson is right. Plot is for theater and the movies are not theater. The movies are time, and movies with people in them are behavior and personality in time. But moviegoers so rarely give themselves the opportunity to find that out; they go to one reatread after another, eventually even convincing themselves that they enjoy being able to predict the next development."
A brilliant movie like Kikujiro's Summer is not brilliant because of the plot but rather the remarkable way in which the story is told - that is, the editing. Take the sequence in which the two characters go swimming. That's it plot-wise. "They go swimming." There - you have summed up the plot of this sequence in its entirety. But the series of uninflected shots cut together tell a remarkable story or at least tell the story in a remarkable way. And therein lies the greatness of the movie and the potential of this wonderful medium called film.
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html - Monday, February 10 2003 0:19:8
I have to stop being a brat now. I'm sorry, but Mr Ellison has spoken. I just read his post.
See Brian? That's all it took. A word from someone I actually respect. Plus he said I could consider my ass to have been kissed by him. I'm speechless.
Bye for now.
Diana
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html - Sunday, February 9 2003 23:57:37
Rick
Thanks for explaining, you're so patient. (Why?)I'm not sure how html code comes into things, but okay. It's some kind of technical problem.
Diana
NOTICE:
Anyone interested in finding out what a snotty asshole Cindy can be sometimes, can go read her snotty posts to me, along with a couple little side comments about them written by a really stubborn person (me) at my web site at the url seen above & below this message.
Diana
Brian,
What? Do you have gumbo for brains?
First off, I don't think Cindy is evil. I think she''s full of shit. And I think she's being a coward, and letting me get dumped on because what counts most with Cindy is having people think well of her. How could they think well of her if she admitted she was being a snotty ass to me and just let me get dumped on because she cares more about herself, and what people think of her than being fair and decent? As long as lots of people like her and think she's nice, she's content. Even if she gains her good image at someone else's expense.
As for you posting some goofy bogus joke post thinking you're being funny and sarcastic, and clever when you're actually being a rubbery doofus, and wondering if that would help ameliorate things regarding me & Cindy...well I'd be happy to see you making a jackass out of yourself (why should I be the only one?)
But it wouldn't solve or resolve anything. You'd just be being full of shit. Like Cindy (why should she be the only one ?)
So go ahead..do it. Make a goofy bogus post.
Diana
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html
Rick
- Sunday, February 9 2003 23:25:28
If you put HTML (including any bolding/italics, any special markup codes, or stuff between less than or greater than sign) in your message, it's removed. Always has been that way.
If you'll be so kind as to use the PREVIEW button before sending your message, you'll save me a lot of grief having to fix triple postings. You'll also spare me the necessity of responding to paranoid insinuations.
(Follow up: I removed the double-posting of your copying of Cindy's posts, as well as the follow-up where you copied them a third time. I've also visited the web page you linked to and made sure everything you posted there already appears at least once on the posts you made here. I remain, very non-mysteriously, yer humble webmaster Rick)
Gunther Schmidl <gschmidl at gmx dot at>
Linz, Austria - Sunday, February 9 2003 23:23:7
since this is bound to bore a lot of readers, just quickly: We do design for every modern browser using CSS, DHTML and other standards. Then I load up the page in Netscape 4, go bang my head against a wall for ten minutes, and put in tons of hacks to make the same website work on that as well. Let's face it: NS4 has run its course, and if I could force people to move on to whatever modern browser -- Safari, IE, Netscape 6, Nautilus, Konqueror, Opera -- I would do so without hesitating a microsecond. Not that more than 5% of people still use it, according to our logs.
As for Microsoft -- yes, they have some questionable business practices and it would be great if they rethought their position on a few things. BUT: without their financial aid of a few years ago, and before Apple re-hired Steve Jobs, Apple might not exist today. Ok, it can again be argued that they did this so they wouldn't run into any monopoly problems, but still, there's so much worse out there (yes, AOL, I mean you).
Rick Wyatt <webmaster@harlanellison.com>
- Sunday, February 9 2003 23:20:24
She's had her say. Now let it rest. If any of you really feel there's anything further to be gained, please let me know via e-mail and I'll consider it. But all you're doing now is being ugly to each other.
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html - Sunday, February 9 2003 23:13:44
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
"Mysteriously", certain parts of the post I've tried to put in here regarding the matter of my contention with Cindy aren't showing up on the board.
Anyway, for the sake of any of you who might actually be fair minded enough to want to read the offending posts that Cindy herself demanded I show her...along with my reasonings on the matter, and just to be the completely stubborn asshole I love to be, I've made a page at my web site where you can go and read all of my actual post
It's become obvious to me that some of the people around have no interest in fairness whatsoever. It seems they'd stop at no petty sneaky thing just to save a little face...
They might try to sue me for puyting stuff on my site from here without permission, by the way. They're like that.
Take your best shot's you petty bullying motherfuckers. Please.
In the meantime at least a few people will find out what a full of shit asshole Cindy is.
And guilt by association all around.
Love,
Diana
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com/ThePosts.html
lonegungirl
Los Angeles, - Sunday, February 9 2003 22:58:31
Are you saying that you are finishing the Ellen scenario and the background is not white? Or that you are unable to complete the scenario at all? I found that even if I completed one of the scenarios at off-white/yellow (I knew what I had done wrong, but was too lazy to go back and redo the whole thing), I could still go on to the AM finale and complete it with all the people.
Lynn:
Another thing I would add to the other comments about ebaying: As a buyer, I would probably only buy high ticket items from someone who already had feedback. If you don't already have some from past purchases, you may want to list cheaper items first to build up positive feedback.
As a one-time seller, I would check prices of completed and current transactions carefully--prices can wax and wane depending on how many similar items are listed simultaneously. I have a superstitious belief that if there are a bunch of the same objects listed, it's better to end your auction last, because all the people who missed out on the earlier ones will get desperate and bid higher on their last chance.
On the one DVD I sold, not a soul bid on it initially for $24.99. About a month later I relisted and it sold for around $100. Go figure.
Brian Siano <brian@briansiano.com>
- Sunday, February 9 2003 22:54:13
Let's say I posted just such a note. Would that make you stop?
Chuck
- Sunday, February 9 2003 22:49:2
"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."
"Many years ago the great British explorer George Mallory, who was to die on Mount Everest, was asked why did he want to climb it. He said, "Because it is there."
"Well, space is there, and we're going to climb it, and the moon and the planets are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked."
Chuck
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Sunday, February 9 2003 22:33:23
Thank you for that post!
I think you are tremendously lucky to be in a program where you DO get hands on with the film itself. Your foundation has been done right and it gives you that much of a leg up on those of us who are scrambling to figure out how to work with Adobe Premiere and a fire wire aka stone chisles and tablets. While you're learning how to sculpt MARBLE we're making cernit dolls.
I'm glad you stayed hitched to the program when it seemed a little off what you expected. What you learn there would be hard to come by some place else. So WHAT if they don't appreciate narrative films? You'll take what they give you and make YOUR film the way you see it.
Smart guy. Lucky too-- I'd give anything to go to film school.
What videos are you choosing to watch now-- I'd be interested in your list.
Like you for me film IS all about the story. Why make a film that you know ahead of time most people won't want to watch?
>
Make a better film AND reach as many people as you can-- the media is precious. People learn new ways of looking at life and relating to each other through film. Reaching the masses is not a step down-- noblesse oblige.
I'm really looking forward to reading more-- KEEP WRITING!!!
:)
Cindy
Alex Jay Berman <alexjay@earthlink.net>
Philly, - Sunday, February 9 2003 22:26:47
TALK ABOUT NAKED AMBITION: Inspired by a MUCH smaller demonstration of the same type in New York, over 750 Australian women went nude in a field outside Canberra, Australia to protest the looming war.
And they were even able to cleanly spell out "NO WAR" inside a heart with their bodies. Impressive.
Stories and a picture (sorry, no perverts--it's just an aerial photo) at these Ozzie newspaper sites:
http://tinyurl.com/5lg4
http://tinyurl.com/5lg7
Xanadu <X_a_n_a_d_u@yahoo.com>
Gates and M$ - Sunday, February 9 2003 22:6:48
In a word, yes. I presented the detailed history since I needed to show that Bill Gates is a freakin' genius at business - but also that the M$ story exposes the major weakness in capitalism... Acumen without morality is dangerous and overwhelming. Bill Gates is smart, he manipulates situations extraordinarily well, he thinks several moves down the line, he grabs opportunity others don't see yet... and he has no moral compass. He will press an advantage until both the spirit and the letter of the law splinters. He is rapacious, nasty, and vindictive. But he is really, really, smart. He is ubergeek.
Re: Apple (Side note - I'm writing this on an eMac, and I've owned Macs since the late 80's - let's just say I'm passionate about the machine...) I could go on even longer about Apple's f*ckups - someday I'll have to tell you why Steve Jobs is both the best and the worst thing that ever happened to Apple, twice.
Negligence in security - It's not a mantra - it's a **requirement**, especially since they own it all. The slammer worm from last week? It spread around the world in TEN minutes... It used an exploit that had been documented months ago and a patch has been out for half a year - people aren't updating because, a) It'll likely screw up the system, forcing a whole cycle of patches and updates throughout your installed software (which for an individual, is hardly a major problem - but for an IT system supporting 100's or even 1000's of systems - THAT'S a pain.) and b) It might not even work. (yeah you can lay the blame on the IT folk for not updating, but why the hell is a "buffer overrun" problem still happening years and years after they were first discovered?)
Yeah, M$ has a new "re-dedication" to secure computing, but I for one don't trust 'em. (And now that Apple's OS X is Unix based, suddenly my computer is heir to the universe of Unix virii. Wooo, hooo!)
"don't we WANT just one OS?" - no, no, no, no - _I_ sure don't. What we want is interoperability - easy exchange, and security.
You may want to check out a concept called "capability based computing". It's a complete rethink of how computers should interact that makes them fundamentally secure. It's a long step, and I'm not sure we'll even consider making such a radical paradigm shift until we have a MAJOR crash. (And looking at the figures, "slammer" just bumped that into the next two years or so.)
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Sunday, February 9 2003 21:55:45
Rick
Thanks for those archives. They definately helped to give me a clearer picture of some of what has going on around here, re: me. One thing I've just realized is that I'm
definately naive sometimes, and also that I have little or no common sense.
Eric's a petty, nasty piece of work. I now see that the reason he sniped so nastily at that innocuous little post I made a few weeks ago (which led to a so called "flame war")
is simply because less than a week prior to that I, a person of unestablished reputation, an obvious "light weight" and a newcomer at this forum, was arguing effectively with him
about a subject he's had a history of taking a stance on in the past. Also, I didn't respond "correctly" to his attempts to control the situation. He wanted the subject dropped.
(He was losing the argument) When I kept on about it anyway, the board was shut down. Of course I didn't connect the two matters at the time. Like I said, I'm definately naive.
He was "gonna git" me for my audacity, alright. I was "gonna get showed" my proper place in the scheme of things around here, one way or another.
As usual, once I can finally understand what the hell's going on in a given situation, it helps me to decide how I'll deal with it.
As for Cindy. Here is what I think is her first overtly catty post regarding me:
"Cindy
TEXAS USA - Saturday, January 25 2003 16:15:46
SWEET JESUS!!!!!!!!!
Diana, SCARES what little LIFE there is left in me OUT!!!!!!!!
As y'all know my right eardrum ruptured last week the next day the left one went too. I have been in bed since MONDAY and NOW THIS!!!
I see Diana's post and my eye keys on the words "my website" and the url... so I'M thinkin' okay! Let's take a peek at what our Diana looks like.
http://www.intothenight.net
My eyes are drawn immediately to the photo in the center of the page.
IMAGINE MY HORROR!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEN there was the blinding realization that I KNEW HER FROM SOMEPLACE.
Anyway-- Diana, you really are cute.. but I don't really see any similarity between you and Harlan... unless, has Harlan grown a Colonel Sanders that I am unaware of?
"I only have one sugestion for you. "NADS"--- but hide the box when your son is around" "Cindy?
Nicest girl posting at the forum? We're kindred spirits; right? So you'll know I'm saying this
for your own good...
***I think you need to re-read that label on your pain pills***
I bet if you check you'll see it actually says "take 2 every 6 hours" not "6 every 2 hours".
:=) :=) :=)
Sincerely
Diana G."
That was in regards to her gushing hysterically at someone in a post almost immediately after she'd put
a bunch of monkey-love love messages to Paul Williams in the guestbook at my fan site.
And this is when Cindy's gushing truly begins full force.(Prior to this I've only come across one little gush by her before ever. One
word, in one post to "David" . We were all trying to comfort him. This was right after one of very first real posts to
anyone around here, wherein I offered my sympathies to him as well. She followed with yet another post to him
containing her very first gush)
>"Cindy
DIANA G.
Perhaps you should check the number of Haldol YOU are taking. Paul Williams tickets for 30
bucks a piece?????? Oh WAIT but they knock of TWO for being a senior citizen and kids are
only TWENTY????? THAT'll bring 'em in by droves.
Honey, he AIN'T Mel Torme!
I PARTICULARLY loved the comment about there only being 199 seats so get your tickets
ASAP.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You musta been jokin' right? Really you were kiddin' huh?
:)
I REMAIN over the moon with delight that Bill is going back to school THAT takes even more
guts than building a PAUL WILLIAMS Website.
LOLOLOL!
Right back atcha, kiddo, FOR yer own good.
;)
AHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA!!!!!!
CATFIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
Cindy ""Cindy
TEXAS USA - Sunday, January 26 2003 21:59:35
BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BILL, BILL, BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU are the REASON that I have faith that my son NICK will some day grow up.
YOU are a TREASURE and I am CERTAIN that you will be one of the scant reasons that you professors find to look forward to class.
YOU ARE GOING TO BE GREAT THIS TIME AROUND AND I---- I--- AM YOUR CHAMPION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
KICK ASS, BILL AND TAKE THEIR NAMES--- ON THEIR WAY BACK UP THEY'LL BE SAYIN' THEY KNEW YOU.
:)
I think you're GRAND... I REALLY DO"
From this point on she begins to gush in her posts regularly. All those multiple letters, and stuff..That's new.
Like maybe she was trying hard to seem cheery or passionate ,or enthusiatic, or whatever,
but it seemed to me like something else might be going on. But I don't know.
Also, right after this Mr. Ellison drops in a post to me casually mentioning that Mr. Williams is a friend of his.
(That's all he said really, well that and he gave me a message to convey to Mr. Williams, at which point I
explained I don't Mr Williams, but I said I'd put H.E.'s message on my site somewhere)
Cindy soon followed Mr Ellison's post about Paul Williams with this:
>"Cindy
TEXAS USA - Monday, January 27 2003 15:56:44
DIAAAAAAAAAAAAANA""I was playin'! I have long thought Paul Williams was a cool fella and I've never
considered him to be a hack. I was just messin'witchoo"<
Yeah, sure she was.
Her and Lynn soon started teaming up on all the "Southern Girls Unite" stuff after this. A lot of that I've already posted.
I realize I left out where PAB enters into the picture. That's because I think I *may* be wrong about her. If I am wrong, I'm very sorry. But I just don't know. So I can't be sure what to think, say or do about that part of it.
Diana
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Sunday, February 9 2003 21:53:25
Regarding what kind of resolution would satisfy me:
No resolution is likely to occur. How could there be one?
Cindy's invested too much in her bullshit at this point to ever be able to be honest now. If she were to turn and admit she did just what I said she did, how could she justify herself? Really?
How could someone supposedly so nice and kind and sweet have stood by and let an innocent person get trashed the way she's let me be trashed? She knows she's guilty. If she really were a decent person she'd have quit fronting long since. Instead she's wallowing in her ill-gotten pride of image. Really. She'll never admit the truth. She'd never have that much courage. That's obvious.
Guess what? So is the truth of what I said about her. All any decent, fair minded person would need to do is objecively read what I posted, where I show, in plain black & yellow, just what her posts were that upset me, and just how nasty she was being. And how sneaky and cowardly and she was being about it. It's not even complicated. All you have to do is read along, and follow a simple train of thought to the end.
Finally a reason there can't be any resolution is because not one single person here would ever have the courage to admit I even MIGHT be right even if they thought it was so. Not one of you. I'm not talking about some bullshit "secret pal" e-mail. I mean saying it out in the open forum. Big ass post. "She's right, Cindy was being a nasty, sneaky cowardly bitchy ass to her (for some still unknown reason)" There's not one person with the balls to stand up and admit they made a mistake, or even bother to consider whether or not thay might have made a mistake, or whether or not I had a damned good reason for seeing things the way I did, whether or not they entirely agreed with my take on it. No one's ever ging to say that they read the stuff I've presented to make my case, and realized I was saying no more than what's true. Or at least that what I said made good sense, even if they disagree with my conclusions. No one's going to admit that maybe things aren't as black &m white as is being suggested by all this undeserved unconditional outrage against me.
Diana
Jason Michelitch <JasonAMichelitch@aol.com>
- Sunday, February 9 2003 21:24:24
Here's the first installment of "What Studying Film is Like at Bard College". Final number of installments undetermined and possibly contingent on feedback and questions from the audience.
I guess I'll start by telling you why I decided to come study at Bard, and then probably move into my complaints and then finish up with what I like about it now that I'm here.
First, my decision to attend Bard was made possible by the fact that they accepted me. I only applied to two different schools, the other being Savannah College of Art and Design. They accepted me too, but I opted for Bard, mostly for the following reasons.
First and foremost, is that at Bard you have the option of actually working in film as opposed to video...and when I say "work in it" I don't mean just shoot film and dump it onto video to edit, but that you can devote your time to learning how to actually take the film and physically cut it and splice it and basically have the most intensely intimate relationship possible between a human and an inanimate object. Now, they don't limit you to film - their video department has fairly impressive credits as well. But this gives one the option to learn how to "do it" the "real" way. The way it Has Been Done, and all that big mythic romantic crap that, frankly, I'm something of a sucker for. I like getting my hands dirty, I like the tactile sensation of whatever I'm creating to be available to me, whether it be the feeling of pen to paper or of reels of film flying about in front of me. This isn't to say that I don't necessarily like video editing...I enjoy both digital and analog video editing very much. But I want to be able to do it the "real" way. Something in me likes that idea a lot. And though Bard isn't the only place where you can cut real film, they seemed to endorse it quite heartily. And so I felt like throwing my weight in on the side of a program like that.
The only thing that really gave me any doubt was at an open house the college hosted for prospectives. They held a screening of recent senior projects, which revealed what I consider to probably be Bard's biggest flaw: they focus and encourage, almost to the point of exclusion of other types of film, avant-garde and experimental film. Now, I wouldn't consider this a flaw at all, except for the little part about "almost to the exclusion of other types of film". Among the senior projects screened, I don't recall a one of them being a narrative film. Now, pre-college, most of my ideas about film came from watching movies and from reading our esteemed patron's book of film criticism, "Harlan Ellison's Watching", so I was (I'm sure) noticably distressed. To me, film has always been a tool for telling a story, and here I was presented with a body of work that the school was proud of, none of them doing what I considered a film's primary job: to tell a STORY. I panicked! During the question-and-answer period, up went my hand, and so politely did I ask (and I think I may have posted this before) "Does the film department here focus at all on narrative film?". And as the professor who was running the open house began to try and answer my question politely, one of the students helping her chimed in snidely with something to the effect of "well...if you want to just make hollywood-type films, Bard probably isn't the best place for you." My eyes started to roll back into my head. Did I really want to pay money to attend an institution where aspirations to make a narrative film were going to be looked down upon as commercially pandering, artistically vacant, and downnright inferior? My eyes started darting about for a fire alarm to pull, when the professor began to explain that, while Bard students generally produce avant-garde films, that has a lot to do with the fact that the faculty are some of the country's leading avant-garde filmmakers (and video artists), but that it was perfectly O.K. and plenty encouraged if a student wanted to, say, take the lessons learned from their venture into the worlds of Stan Brakhage and Peter Frampton (to name two important and reknowned avant-garde filmmakers) and apply them to good ol' narrative cinema, which, of course, makes up the backbone of American cinema anyway.
So, my fears were somewhat abated. And even though the culture of avant-garde film would probably be everpresent on the campus, I decided that, since they still teach the fundamentals of film history, I'd get enough of a grounding in What's Important to further educate myself through the renting of videos. I'd also, I decided, be trying something kind of new, but still related to a field that I loved. So I took the plunge and decided to go to Bard (which is located in a beautiful section of the Hudson River Valley, somewhat sparsely populated and not very built up...another big reason for me deciding to attend).
Jeezum Crow. I've already written enough to choke a horse (if it were, y'know, on paper instead of a computer screen) and I haven't even gotten to the part where I actually attend the college. I'll have to save it all for the next installment, lovingly embued with the legally questionable title of "Prof. Strangefilms, OR, How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Avant-Garde".
Same Bard-time, Same Bard-channel. That is, if you don't scream for my blood for having already taken up so much of your time with these ramblings.
From the Outer Reaches of Academia,
Your Loyal Pioneer,
--Jason
Eric
- Sunday, February 9 2003 21:21:14
Apple had a clearly superior OS throughout the 80s and early 90s. But they refused to license it, so that they could sell hardware (where much larger margins are realized). MS allowed clones to run their system, and thus business, always looking for cheaper boxes to run stuff on, went for it, and the software people followed.
As far as the browser wars, I agree that MS acted shamelessly, but it's hard to sympathize with Netscape, since that's such a shitty product. Apple has finally realized that, and is now pushing their own browser.
Negligence in security; again, it happens to MS, because everyone is running MS. The oft-parroted mantra that Apple has no security problems is because nobody is running Apple networks, so virus writers don't bother.
We've tried Linux, here at work. It's wonky, kludgy, and there's no way an average end user is gonna handle it. So, we've got MS, for better or ill. I think Gates has been demonized to the point of absurdity...he's just a geek who runs a big company. There's plenty of blame to go around for the OS monopoly, but in the end, don't we WANT just one OS? What was Spcck using, anyway...Windows 2560?
Xanadu <X_a_n_a_d_u@yahoo.com>
Bill Gates and M$ - Sunday, February 9 2003 21:9:2
(If you just want to get the digest version, scroll down to the end and you see the astericks' - But please, don't feel compelled to read the whole damn thing if you're short on time.)
********************
A (not so) Brief History of Microsoft
In the early years of M$ (mid to late 70's), Bill Gates and Co. developed programming languages for the growing hobby computer subculture. Programming languages being the only way you could get the fairly expensive chunk of hardware and electronics you just assembled to actually DO something. Most of these hobbyists were nuts and bolts guys and didn't want to spend a lot of time to reinvent the wheel (create their own languages) - so they used Bill's instead. Buuuuut, (here's the kick), they didn't want to PAY for it - they just tended to steal it - one guy would get it from a friend (sound familiar?), then they'd make copies to give to THEIR friends, and so on. (It's not like it was actually a CRIME or anything... You can see how this laid the groundwork for the near fanatical fervor Bill has against pirated software to this day.) Bill recognized very early on that it would be far better to make someone more "honest" pay, someone that could be tied up contractually - the manufacturer.
This is when Bill hit upon the first of his nasty little "Edges". See, Bill is smart - real smart - real scary smart - and he added a clause to his licenses that most of the lesser-watt bulbs signing on the other side didn't recognize. He tied his fees to the number of machines going out the door. (Note this, it is important - not the number of machines you shipped with the programming language included - the number of machines you MADE.) In very short order, the manufacturers realized what they had done, but it was too late, they were already painted into a corner. See - they had just signed a contract that essentially FORCED them to put M$ languages on their machines. When another company arrived with their own languages to license, the manufacturers couldn't buy them. They weren't making very much on their systems and they really couldn't afford to license multiple languages. So the little start-up companies couldn't sell their new, sometimes superior, product and they folded. (At which point M$ would sweep in and pick up the "intellectual property" [read languages] and add them to their growing stable.)
Then IBM arrived in the "personal computer" market - they needed an operating system and in a brilliant performance at their initial meeting, Bill sold 'em one. Their was just one problem - Bill didn't HAVE one. In a blind panic, they went out and bought it. MS-DOS was born. But real scary smart Bill once again out-foxed the brain power seated on the other side of the table and sold IBM a NON-EXCLUSIVE license (essentially, M$ could sell this new "DOS" to other interested parties - this was their second "Edge".) - IBM didn't care, they wanted the hardware market. Soon, IBM started to clean up in the "personal computer" market, when what might be considered the first "killer app" arrived - Lotus 1-2-3. Bill watched this unfold and realized, in another flash of genius, that Operating Systems were the future. He realized his MS-DOS had to be on every machine out there. So how to do it? There are two ways - give the OS away (a possibility Bill was positively allergic to) or you leveraged your existing customers into buying the new stuff. Bill had two things going for him when he showed up with the new licensing contracts - he still had the programming languages the manufacturers wanted, and Lotus 1-2-3 was taking the "PC" world by storm - suddenly, they couldn't give a PC away that couldn't run Lotus. Gritting their teeth, they signed with M$ again.
Sure, there were other "DOS's" out there - but a that combination of M$ "Edges" (and now we have to add "Leverage" as the third) kept most of them out of the big game. Except for Digital Research. You see, they used "clean room" techniques and had reverse engineered MS-DOS - creating DR-DOS, which also ran Lotus - and suddenly new computer manufactures didn't have to sign the very restrictive contracts with M$ anymore. Oh, it was all perfectly legal - but you can still imagine that this didn't sit well with Bill.
Meanwhile, elsewhere in the computer world, Apple Computer has been plundering away in their little universe - and by the mid eighties (1984, to be precise) - were ready to unveil a new concept to the computer world. The Graphical User Interface, GUI for short. Bill recognized it's power very quickly, and offered to produce a "Lotus killer" for the Mac - Excel and Word. (You see, by this time M$ was also trying to get into the applications market - but they weren't making much headway against Lotus on PC-compatibles - they thought they could gain a foothold in apps on this new platform.) In a fairly neat series of contracts, they licensed the right to produce a GUI for MS-DOS based systems, based on the Mac OS. Windows was born.
Now Windows was not actually an Operating System (it ran over MS-DOS - in fact, it did for most versions until the NT line, and eventually ME and XP for "consumers".) - it's an interface. But this is where Bill and Co. were able to kill their old DR-DOS rival. During the beta testing of Windows 3.1 - DR-DOS users found that they suddenly couldn't run Windows - it failed with an error. Since most software companies were now writing exclusively for Windows (they had to, you see - M$ wouldn't let them say they could run on MS-DOS unless they also wrote a Windows version of the program - "Leverage" at work again). DR-DOS died at that moment. This becomes M$'s fourth "Edge" - "Control of the Standard".
By the late eighties M$ had completely taken over the PC-compatible market. They had a strangle-hold on the OS, they had carved out the major application market through Word, Excel and the rest of what would become Office. (The app market was cornered by the fifth "edge" - "Dominance". As an example: say a small company develops a new category of application - a new thing, and it looks to be hot. A PC-Expo arrives and they unveil the new product. It is a neat piece of software, and there seems to be a potential market for it. Orders pour in. M$ notices this, and they suddenly announce that some six months down the line, they're gonna have MS-KILLER APP, a piece of software that'll do exactly what the new guys are delivering now. Business owners, realizing that if M$ is gonna have a version of the software out soon, it'll tie in with all the other Office apps, and there's no sense in buying the new guy's stuff, now - when we all know we're just gonna have to buy M$'s down the road - to stay "compatible" (which by the way, is the sixth "edge") The new guys fail, M$ sweeps in and buys their released product and next week, MS-KILLER APP v 3.0 arrives "written from the ground up", looking suspiciously like their former rival's code. No business could afford NOT to run an M$ computer, with M$ apps. Life, for M$, was good.
Then came the 90's and a little thing called the Internet (perhaps you've heard of it?). Netscape released the first commercial web browser - Navigator. (it was based on the free browser, Mosaic - though some could legitimately argue that Netscape wasn't commercial, since the company gave the browser away.) On the Internet, Netscape kicked EVERYBODY'S butt. Overnight, they had a 75+% market share - a slam dunk by anyone's standards. Believe me, this got the attention of one Mr. Gates VERY quickly and he realized that for perhaps the first time in his life, HE had been outflanked.
On a dime, a multi-BILLION dollar company changed it's focus and entered the Internet Age. Since they didn't have a browser to compete - they did the next best thing - they bought one from SpyGlass, called - surprise, Internet Explorer (it was also based on the - now dated - Mosiac code). Navigator had a multiyear edge, and their marketshare was close to 90%. It didn't help M$ that IE 1.0 sucked. Version 2.0 blew. But 3.0... 3.0 was workable. They just had no chance to grab any significant marketshare from Netscape (remember that Navigator was free - Bill couldn't even undercut the other guys.) This is when Bill decided to dip back into his bag of "Edges" and he pulled out "Leverage".
At this point, no one with a lick of business sense was running anything but Windows - and manufacturers needed it to sell machines. Bill and Co. arrived with another contract - this one included a requirement that Internet Explorer be "bundled" with the new Windows 95 and displayed prominently on the desktop. In fact, the new contract required "default" opening screens and a "default" desktop, ostensibly to make the end-user experience simple and familiar - the fact that this "default" desktop didn't show any competitor's icons was an innocent side-effect. Companies could install Navigator, they just couldn't put it on the "default" desktop.
This had an immediate, corrosive effect on Netscape's marketshare. New users were not seeking out the "hidden" browser and besides, IE 3.0 was not bad. Add to this their seventh "edge" - "MS exclusive 'extensions'" for otherwise open standards, and suddenly, the unified web was shattered. (Not to say Netscape didn't do this, too - but it was very easy for M$ to get a new "extension" into a large installed base and leverage that into the new creation tools.) Netscape brought suit against M$ as a monopoly - won the battle, but lost the war (as of this writing, Netscape has a marketshare in the low single digits). (Sun is fighting and winning, surprisingly, a battle against M$ "extending" Java.)
But now that M$ owns the market - they are beginning to show their teeth to the end users. New licensing terms that are both costly and punitive for failing to upgrade in a "timely" fashion (determined by M$, not the user's needs). A continued failure to provide "backwards" compatibility in their major apps means that if one system in the company upgrades, all of them must, to be able to read the new documents. (M$ has been known to simply shuffle the order of the contents in their file formats, rather than actually providing "new functionality" - in order to "break" compatibility.) They also hide key "API's", which give programmers who know the API's a distinct advantage over those who don't. Their software is "optimized" for the new OS. Guess who knows the API's?
All of this brings us to today.
*******************
Let's review: M$ uses punitive contract terms; they leverage existing dominance into new markets; they create compatibility "issues" through their control of both the app and the OS, via noninteraction with third-party apps, and hidden "acceleration" of M$ apps; they dominate the "mindspace" so completely, that announced "vaporware" successfully displaces shipping product from rivals; they can "extend" open standards, because of their dominance, and "hijack" them; and they are using punitive "upgrade" terms for end users - via a combination of "backwards compatibility issues" and rigid licensing terms.
This ignores the fact that M$ should be held criminally negligent for their failures in the areas of computer security. Their coding is so sloppy that actually applying a patch or a "fix" has a significant chance of "breaking" your system and destroying your hard-won stability.
My opinion? Yes, Bill Gates is a modern day robber baron - and though "hidden", his control and dominance are every bit as corrosive as the barons of yore.
Casual Observer <recilc@hotmail.com>
Berkeley, CA U?S - Sunday, February 9 2003 20:49:7
P.A. Berman
- Sunday, February 9 2003 20:29:34
PAB
P.A. Berman
- Sunday, February 9 2003 20:22:22
Also, set shipping at a reasonable rate for yourself, which may require a little research. Consider packaging, etc. It's best to set the fee at a flat rate in advance and stick to it.
Pictures are ALWAYS a good idea, esp. if it's a unique item.
If you have any questions, please ask.
PAB
Jay Smith
One last post before sleep... - Sunday, February 9 2003 20:15:16
I understand the need for incogNITO operations. I'm glad your hearing is coming back.
I reposted some hideous pictures from zebrapix films last effort, complete with superheroes and monsters. The trailer is pretty cool, though it's 10 megs to download. I you're interested, it's at www.zebrapix.com/ringo.html
Lynn-
Good to hear from you tonight.
Off to bed now. Long day tomorrow.
My best to everyone,
Jay
Jason Michelitch <JasonAMichelitch@aol.com>
- Sunday, February 9 2003 20:13:51
Glad that you found the website. I too am finding plenty of items to eat up my luxuries budget paging through their stock.
--Jason
(note: apologies to all if this message ends up posting more than once. The last two times I tried I got a "CGI-Wrap Error", and though I went to the board and hit "refresh" to make sure my comment hadn't gone through anyway before I tried again, I am secure in the knowledge that I could easily be so inept at this as to post the same thing three times. Hence, apologies if and when.)
Debbie <yerkesd@gwm.sc.edu>
Columbia,SC, - Sunday, February 9 2003 20:13:44
(Going back into lurkdom) Debbie
Eric
- Sunday, February 9 2003 20:5:12
The hidden reserve price is the bane of e-bay, and just encourages retailers to use e-bay as a free outlet store. I'd suggest you don't use it, and just start your bidding at the lowest amount you can possibly bear.
Ship promptly, and don't try to make money on the shipping...THAT is the hallmark of a great seller. Sending an "it's on its way" e-mail to your buyer the day you ship is a too-rare courtesy that I really appreciate.
One more tip: don't over-package the material. While I appreciate a securely-bundled item, I've sometimes spent way too much time carving open packages that were apparently intended to last through the next ice age. Just a little bubble wrap and packing tape goes a long way.
Hope this helps. --Eric
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Sunday, February 9 2003 19:58:31
I think the most important thing is to take a good picture of each item. Also set your starting bid at the least you'll take that way people who are bidding won't be discouraged by a hidden and unknown reserve price. Then be sure and call attention to anything that is wrong with it.
It SNOWED here yesterday! You know how RARE that is. It was all gone by noon today.
:)
Cindy
Lil' Washu
- Sunday, February 9 2003 19:51:15
Jay Smith
Garage Sale, Webderland Style... - Sunday, February 9 2003 19:50:8
Sorry...I mean...um...you may enjoy examining his D&D electronic game for bid as well.
Don't take crappy pictures. If you have a scantily-clad model, prices will shoot up - among other things - and you should properly describe the item (also saying model is not included) to avoid any nasty negative feedback.
Include something like "Negative ratings need not bid for I will smite thee with my godly hammer won from Odin in a test of strength. My powers will find thee and your pain will be greater than that of Klasyer's in the hands of the Funtooslers!"
Provide prompt answers to questions and just give them good service.
Jay
Lynn
Subject: eBay Sellers - Sunday, February 9 2003 19:32:17
Thanks in advance,
L.
Eric Martin
- Sunday, February 9 2003 19:17:5
Thanks again, Eric
Lil' Washu
- Sunday, February 9 2003 19:8:16
Diana <dleeg9@yahoo.com>
http://simplycosmic.homestead.com, - Sunday, February 9 2003 19:7:42
Thanks for those archives. They definately helped to give me a clearer picture of some of what has going on around here, re: me. One thing I've just realized is that I'm
definately naive sometimes, and also that I have little or no common sense.
Eric's a petty, nasty piece of work. I now see that the reason he sniped so nastily at that innocuous little post I made a few weeks ago (which led to a so called "flame war")
is simply because less than a week prior to that I, a person of unestablished reputation, an obvious "light weight" and a newcomer at this forum, was arguing effectively with him
about a subject he's had a history of taking a stance on in the past. Also, I didn't respond "correctly" to his attempts to control the situation. He wanted the subject dropped.
(He was losing the argument) When I kept on about it anyway, the board was shut down. Of course I didn't connect the two matters at the time. Like I said, I'm definately naive.
He was "gonna git" me for my audacity, alright. I was "gonna get showed" my proper place in the scheme of things around here, one way or another.
As usual, once I can finally understand what the hell's going on in a given situation, it helps me to decide how I'll deal with it.
As for Cindy. Here is what I think is her first overtly catty post regarding me:
"Cindy
TEXAS USA - Saturday, January 25 2003 16:15:46
SWEET JESUS!!!!!!!!!
Diana, SCARES what little LIFE there is left in me OUT!!!!!!!!
As y'all know my right eardrum ruptured last week the next day the left one went too. I have been in bed since MONDAY and NOW THIS!!!
I see Diana's post and my eye keys on the words "my website" and the url... so I'M thinkin' okay! Let's take a peek at what our Diana looks like.
http://www.intothenight.net
My eyes are drawn immediately to the photo in the center of the page.
IMAGINE MY HORROR!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEN there was the blinding realization that I KNEW HER FROM SOMEPLACE.
Anyway-- Diana, you really are cute.. but I don't really see any similarity between you and Harlan... unless, has Harlan grown a Colonel Sanders that I am unaware of?
"I only have one sugestion for you. "NADS"--- but hide the box when your son is around" "Cindy?
Nicest girl posting at the forum? We're kindred spirits; right? So you'll know I'm saying this
for your own good...
***I think you need to re-read that label on your pain pills***
I bet if you check you'll see it actually says "take 2 every 6 hours" not "6 every 2 hours".
:=) :=) :=)
Sincerely
Diana G."
That was in regards to her gushing hysterically at someone in a post almost immediately after she'd put
a bunch of monkey-love love messages to Paul Williams in the guestbook at my fan site.
And this is when Cindy's gushing truly begins full force.(Prior to this I've only come across one little gush by her before ever. One
word, in one post to "David" . We were all trying to comfort him. This was right after one of very first real posts to
anyone around here, wherein I offered my sympathies to him as well. She followed with yet another post to him
containing her very first gush)
>"Cindy
DIANA G.
Perhaps you should check the number of Haldol YOU are taking. Paul Williams tickets for 30
bucks a piece?????? Oh WAIT but they knock of TWO for being a senior citizen and kids are
only TWENTY????? THAT'll bring 'em in by droves.
Honey, he AIN'T Mel Torme!
I PARTICULARLY loved the comment about there only being 199 seats so get your tickets
ASAP.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You musta been jokin' right? Really you were kiddin' huh?
:)
I REMAIN over the moon with delight that Bill is going back to school THAT takes even more
guts than building a PAUL WILLIAMS Website.
LOLOLOL!
Right back atcha, kiddo, FOR yer own good.
;)
AHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA!!!!!!
CATFIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
Cindy ""Cindy
TEXAS USA - Sunday, January 26 2003 21:59:35
BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BILL, BILL, BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU are the REASON that I have faith that my son NICK will some day grow up.
YOU are a TREASURE and I am CERTAIN that you will be one of the scant reasons that you professors find to look forward to class.
YOU ARE GOING TO BE GREAT THIS TIME AROUND AND I---- I--- AM YOUR CHAMPION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
KICK ASS, BILL AND TAKE THEIR NAMES--- ON THEIR WAY BACK UP THEY'LL BE SAYIN' THEY KNEW YOU.
:)
I think you're GRAND... I REALLY DO"
From this point on she begins to gush in her posts regularly. All those multiple letters, and stuff..That's new.
Like maybe she was trying hard to seem cheery or passionate ,or enthusiatic, or whatever,
but it seemed to me like something else might be going on. But I don't know.
Also, right after this Mr. Ellison drops in a post to me casually mentioning that Mr. Williams is a friend of his.
(That's all he said really, well that and he gave me a message to convey to Mr. Williams, at which point I
explained I don't Mr Williams, but I said I'd put H.E.'s message on my site somewhere)
Cindy soon followed Mr Ellison's post about Paul Williams with this:
>"Cindy
TEXAS USA - Monday, January 27 2003 15:56:44
DIAAAAAAAAAAAAANA""I was playin'! I have long thought Paul Williams was a cool fella and I've never
considered him to be a hack. I was just messin'witchoo"<
Yeah, sure she was.
Her and Lynn soon started teaming up on all the "Southern Girls Unite" stuff after this. A lot of that I've already posted.
I realize I left out where PAB enters into the picture. That's because I think I *may* be wrong about her. If I am wrong, I'm very sorry. But I just don't know. So I can't be sure what to think, say or do about that part of it.
Diana
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Sunday, February 9 2003 18:57:15
Nope not me-- but you're right! That one does look sorta like my mom.
I remain incogNITO. Trench coat and violin case will travel.
:)
Cindy
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Sunday, February 9 2003 18:53:5
YES!!!!! Absolutely!!!!! I'd LOVE to hear all about it.
Hang on a sec, let me grab a chair for you.
There now.
Do tell.
:)
Cindy
Jason Michelitch <JasonAMichelitch@aol.com>
- Sunday, February 9 2003 18:32:31
Long ago when the dinosaurs ruled the earth and I last posted a couple of messages at this here message board, I mentioned that I was at Bard College studying film, and you both expressed an interest in hearing more details about the film program here. I seem to be finding more time to bop around the board here and should be able to bang out such a description for you, if you are still at all interested.
If not, then, well...that means I don't have to type it all up. So either works for me, really. Just let me know.
--Jason
Jason Michelitch <JasonAMichelitch@aol.com>
- Sunday, February 9 2003 18:27:52
De-lurking for a moment to point out an online store I discovered just this afternoon that seems to have an interesting selection of vinyl treats. The site is:
http://www.tonesmusic.com/tones.htm
I have yet to order anything from them so I cannot vouch for reliability or any such thing. But I have had good experiences in the past with this kind of "mom'n'pop" internet store, and so I'd at least give it a shot.
Hopefully Helpful,
Jason
Steve <stspears@qlug.org>
Quincy, IL US - Sunday, February 9 2003 17:21:58
Thanks for the comforting words. I've been an observer of this board for a while and have only now decided to jump in with both 12" feet. I still have moments of hesitation, but there is only one way to know wether you got the metal to survive or are just a tired booger hanging underneath a high school desk: jump in, get yourself dirty and make what you can of it. Life is too short to let what could be moments of enlightenment get flushed away by fear.
Thanks,
Steve
Jay
- Sunday, February 9 2003 17:12:26
Rob
- Sunday, February 9 2003 17:10:58
ASSH@(E!!!!!!
Hey, man! Harlan's got a jam session happenin' in his garage!
BLAST THAT STRAT, BABY! SING THEM REBEL LYRICS!! BRING DOWN THE HOUSE!!! YEAH!!!!
Jay Smith
- Sunday, February 9 2003 17:5:52
Is that you a few pictures down? The one in the large group shot with the striking resemblance to your mom?
Chuck
- Sunday, February 9 2003 16:52:49
Let me say congratulations on the play. I hope the audience enjoys it, and that you drink in the joy of this project with much gusto.
lonegungirl,
Tap dancing is an art, my dear. You are taking part in art and bless you for that.
Steve,
By all means, post. We always have room for intelligent folks like you. The only way to get burned by the resident author is if you say something way out of line. You haven't done that, but I have.
Which brings me to:
Casual Observer.
Yes, I was way out of line when I called you a pimple. I was being a churl, an apeshit berserking fool. I disagreed with your posting, but instead of saying that, I called you names and got all defensive. I do not have an excuse. There is no valid reason for it. I can't take it back, but I hope you can forgive my behaving like a congo silverback with a burr up his butt.
And, like an alcoholic who can't conceive of drinking without getting falling-down drunk, I can't understand your being a "Casual Observer".
Then again, given the madness going on in here the last couple of days, maybe it's not that hard to understand, after all.
And, I apologise to all for adding to that madness. I'm going back to being my usual self.
Again, I'm sorry.
Chuck
Jim Hess
- Sunday, February 9 2003 16:40:7
I ask because I have a suggestion to avoid futur &^%$## monkey squat, white knuckle $#@!# issues: Compose into the simpletext or whatever you use, save it, then do a cut and paste to the comments field here and send it.
Until next time. . .
Andrew <drew71@hotmail.com>
San Diego, CA - Sunday, February 9 2003 16:38:17
I have to say that I agree about what others have said about the man. But, his marketing practices have been, at the very least. highly unethical.
To add to what said earlier about Microsoft and Dell, not only did he force Dell into submission he forced all of the major PC manufacturers into the same corner. For a while he even charged companies a fee if they did *not* install Windows on their products. In addition, while most folks consider Microsoft an innovator, they tend to buy out competitors rather than create products of their own. Profitable business practices maybe, but pretty unethical.
Gunther: In my experience, I never designed for any *one* browser. I stuck to standards and let the browsers sort out the mess. Keep in mind, a lot of "non-standard" mark-up was created by Microsoft. With minor exceptions, Netscape stuck by the standards (however loosely) but didn't catch up with CSS until 6.0. While I'm forced to use IE at work, I dislike it intensely, preferring either Opera or Netscape (7.01) at home.
-Andrew
Lil' Washu
- Sunday, February 9 2003 16:34:59
I've torn my way through the I HAVE NO MOUTH AND I MUST SCREAM PC game, and have finished all the scenarios of the five characters, on my own, with the 'spiritual barometer' topping white each time.
With the exception of Ellen.
I've been through Ellen's scenario about three times, I've run every single alterantive option in my head with a fine tooth comb, and I'm still not certain what I'm missing. Heck, I even glimpsed at a walkthrough out of desperation, only to discover I had already followed the exact same route the walkthrough prescribed. Now...I've heard rumours that sometimes IHNMAIMS experiences 'bugs' during gameplay. If that's playing a factor here or not, I have NO idea.
If anyone out there has a suggestion, I would fall head over heels to hear it. This is a damn fine game, and I wish to combat AM head-on.
Chris L
- Sunday, February 9 2003 16:24:6
ASSH@(E!!!!!!**
Harlan has absolutely got to write the script for the next South Park movie.
Eric
- Sunday, February 9 2003 16:19:49
Thanks, Eric
Cindy <IAMCINDIANAJONES@netscape.net>
TEXAS USA - Sunday, February 9 2003 15:50:30
I ohpe you get better fast. Don't forget my words of wisdom RUN don't WALK to the store and get CLARITIN-D it could save your ears!! Believe me I know!!
Cindy
JAY!
It IS a big party.
Go to
http://www.48hourfilm.com/austin.htm
Then look on the right side of the page and scroll down
until you see a
neon aligator.
on the left side
go down to the 5th pic