The Ellison Bulletin Board

Comments Archive - 05/17/96 to 06/19/96

Rick Wyatt (webmaster@harlanellison.com) Wed Jun 19 23:38:06 1996
PLEASE READ:

Webderland will probably be unavailable at www.snider.net within a few days. I have the mirror set up but I can't do the comments page there yet!

My local server (crl.com) does not support CGIs. All I need is a place to run the comments page from. It needs to have a c compiler and support cgis (most likely in the form of allowing filenames with the extension .cgi in home directories). I need only FTP access to this directory, unless you are willing to put a new file in there once a month when I archive... If you know of a place where the comments page can live, please e-mail me or post here. Otherwise by this weekend we probably won't have a comments page, or at best I will never be able to archive the page again.

Thanks for reading this, and enjoy the comments while they last!

Charles Morgan (cem@flex.net) Wed Jun 19 17:19:58 1996
Don' you hate hitting the return key instead of the tab key when posting a message?

Boy, dive into some boxes for a week and messages out the yin/yang show up. Not much to say but a quick howdy (and what is this about a glass?) adnd I hope all of you going to the Con have a safe trip and enjoy yourselves. Some of us have to stay at home and juggle more stuff than they wish.
So long for now.

Charles Morgan Wed Jun 19 17:16:14 1996

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Wed Jun 19 17:14:35 1996
(Chewing my Angry Bubblegum and eatin' that rainbow stew...)
No, WM, you are not alone to tell the tale. We're here, we're just tired and jealous of Sue and so we're sulking in a corner.
Just Kidding, SUE! But you know, if you were so thrilled to touch a personally signed letter from HE, what about my personally signed book, the autograph of which includes thanks, etc. for my mail to HE? There, that's it, my secret is out. Are you happy now?
--KRIS (who is enormously jealous that Sue is there and I am stuck here, with eight-hour days and no end in sight. *sigh*)

Sue Luesse (..Off The Isles of Langerhorn (jaluesse@htonline.com)) Wed Jun 19 16:28:47 1996

Not quite alone WolfMistress.. I'm not really dead yet, Really I'm not.. I'll be better tomorrow.. I promise I will.. I'm feeling better already.. (appologies to the Monty Python gang)

Random synapse firing a spark in the dark of the mind - That title bummed me the first time I read the story. You see, in the story the Isles of Langerhorn are where the intrepid hero found his 'soul' buried - and in Real Life, my Isles of Langerhorn went belly up and died some time ago, which is why I am diabetic today... {8-0 Which causes some wondering and a little worrying about whether my soul went with it and the Song The Zombie Sang should be my signature piece, or it is just another unfounded co-incidence.. (;-)

I'm in the last stages of cutting down 'stuff to take' into a size that fits on the bikes. Umm, do I really NEED a WHOLE new outfit for every day?? Maybe just clean underwear and socks.. Not taking any printed matter (since I should be coming home with plenty), and will be wearing the bike boots the whole time (shoes are unbelievably nasty to pack). Maybe my beloved old Dr. Scholls one-buckle strap sandals.. For those worried they might not be able to spot me in a red Seal-a-Meal rainsuit (which covers everything but my face), not to worry. The purple leather is worn _underneath_ the cocoon, and will be what is seen indoors (we leave the wet nasties somewhere to dry).

*Strange convergences* While reading through the ChiComCon guest list (waiting for the map and directions to print out), I spotted a familiar name on the guest list. Now don't get me wrong, if we know Somebody, it is purely accidental, and probably due to having known them when they were Nobody, before they morphed into a Somebody. But there it was. I was kind of excited that it might be one and the same from the old Bag End days at North Campus Co-op (how many HE fan writers of the same name can there be?). And then I remembered that the last time I saw him, he was towing his beloved blue Barracuda out of my driveway (with a blown engine) after entrusting it to our care while he was in Europe - and that act of trust was to show there were no hard feelings after I helped set up the worst blind date of his life.. But he did write to HE, and let me touch the signed letter he received, So blessings upon him.

Paul - if it really is you, and you're on the net, I know you're lurking around every bit of Ellisonia on the Net, and reading this.. Hope you're still as forgiving and open-hearted as ever, and we run into each other at the Con. Often wondered if you 'made it'.. Hoped you did.

We're leaving tomorrow morning early - or tonight late - depending on how the weather looks. Right now, there seems to be a window of 'dry' between here and Chicago, and I really HATE the rainsuit.

See you all when we get back. Hope it's not too much of an adventure, or too interesting (remember the Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times.)

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Wed Jun 19 15:05:42 1996
*Ishmael* Yes, I do know how to spell. I'm a dyslexic typist, tho. Just waiting for something to float to the surface....

WolfMistress (Adrift....) Wed Jun 19 14:56:05 1996
That's it. You've all drowned, and I alone remain to tell somebody. Just call me Ishmeal....

Sue Luesse (Floating Face Down In Natures Swimming Pool) Tue Jun 18 13:57:08 1996

Sigh.. So wet out there, I have to throw the dogs bodily out the back door to encourage them to do their 'duty' - and feel a little guilty about it. They slosh out to high ground, do their thing, and doggie-paddle back. {;) I keep thinking it's like forcing a child to potty on an overflowing toilet..

Rick - The 2 cents worth is noted. I promise to mention Webderland, and not embarass you (but I can still embarass me, right??) at the ComicCon.. heh,heh.. };-)~

Gern - Good to see you on the Board.

Shaz - Well!! Ask, and ye shall receive!! Good Job. And I sure am glad I encouraged you to 'bore' us with yet another take on At The Mouse Circus. WolfMistress - Thanks for the information re: Jim Hess. My server doesn't 'do' compuserve. Found that out trying to get the American Motorcycle Association (they were sending duplicates of EVERYTHING snail-mail, since Joe and I are both members, and I wanted to let them know they could stop - please.) Ended up having to call an 800 number I found instead. I promise not to Rant about closed, proprietary systems , and the Bill Gates knowck-offs that see profits for themselves in every keystroke on the Net (and it is REALLY an effort).

Charles - I haven't decided if you are still looking for that glass, or have found it (and still putting it to use..).

Jason - Be Good! (we miss ya)

And for all the rest of you (she says - squinting into the swirls of electrons passing, that don't make pit stops) Hi There!

All this rain is giving me a 'shut-in' mentallity.. Time to do Real Life stuff. There's always some kind of trouble I can get into..

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress (Using Cruise Control In The Fast Lane of the Red Queen's Race...) Tue Jun 18 08:54:14 1996
Greetings, One & All -- The following was received from *Jim Hess* who asked me to pass it on. His new e-mail is:

104656.765@compuserve.com

He has wants to hear from us! He is alive and well, and equipped to handle the acursed weather. Remember him mentioning his 28-foot sailboat? Well, in the past 24 hours here in Southern Wisconsin, we have had *7 inches* of rain!!!

If we're really extra-special nice (grovel, grovel), maybe he'll let us charter it as the new Ark..... More later as time permits.

>Hello.

>Remember me? The lively pain in the ass from Webderland? Well, I am back. >Sort of. For some irrational, incomprehensible reason I can't get to
>Webderland.

>So would you kindly tell Rick Wyatt and Co. that I am around and they can
>lob e-mail in my general direction in care of this address until such time
>I get back to Webderland and commence with my usual irritating manner?
>Thanks.

>Jim Hess
>(formerly of James.Hess@colorado.edu)

Shaz (endnote on At The Mouse Circus) Tue Jun 18 07:26:56 1996
Speaking of the consumption of the car scene, I realized after I had
logged offline that the woman having sex with the car is probably a
parallel to nuns in the Catholic church who are "married" to Christ.

keegan Mon Jun 17 20:59:07 1996
Well expressed, Shaz! I had sort of the same leanings but was far too chicken (and lazy) to sort through them and put them into a coherent form. Your take on the consuming of the car as communion; the car as an altar of materialism makes a lot of sense. Story's a little more concrete for me now. Thanks for taking the time! Enjoy your reading.

Shaz (remco@cas.et.tudelft.nl & psyco4@jetson.uh.edu) Mon Jun 17 19:14:31 1996
Just got through the "An Edge in My Voice" essays in the new WW book.
Got the book Saturday (not bad--only took the book store 2 weeks to
get it here from America) and have been spending way too much time
reading it. I'm like that with a new good book: I can't seem to put
it down.

Shaz (correction to preceding essay (remco@cas.et.tudelft.nl) Mon Jun 17 19:06:21 1996
It should read "THROW out your aspirin bottles" (not through).
It's 2 a.m. in Holland--give me a break.

Shaz (Just an ordinary day AT THE MOUSE CIRCUS) Mon Jun 17 19:00:46 1996
Ok, folks, through out the aspirin bottles: here's my long-awaited
expose of AT THE MOUSE CIRCUS.

First to the basic concept: the emptiness that is left when you realize that you've sacrificed your soul (in Charlie's case, through prostitution), indeed wasted your life, for a god (the almighty CADILLAC--the pinnacle of social status in Charlie's mind) that turned out to be less fulfilling than your dream promised.
In DEATHBIRD STORIES, the quote accompanying this story is as follows:
"This is what happens when a black man worships a white god."
The white god, of course, is a material object (for Charlie, a silver
Cadillac) that symbolizes social status and thus success. The reason the
god is white, of course, is that it exists in a society where for the most part the definition of success (material wealth, social status, etc.) has been formed by white men (yes, mostly men, not women). So for those of you wondering about that quote, there it is in brief.
Isn't it interesting that Charlie finances his dream machine depositing
sperm into fat WHITE (do we sense a feeling that the white population is fat with wealth compared to the black population in the US?) women?
The title, "At the Mouse Circus", as well as Charlie's perception that
he is a little white mouse who can't see his treadmill show that Charlie at some level understands that he is at the mercy of a predetermined maze (i.e. the uneven playing field of opportunity in society for blacks as opposed to whites) in which he can't figure out the solution (just as
Billy Batson can't figure out the rest of S-H-A-Z-...). He can't see how
to reach that illusive pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
It all starts, of course, when his mother tells him a fairytale (you can
be anything you want to be as long as you are good and do) without any realistic map complete with set of rules which apply to blacks who are on an uneven playing field.
Selling himself for a cheap imitation of fullfillment (O.K., a Cadillac
isn't very cheap in the monetary sense, but in the sense of soul fulfillment...) , Charlie feels constantly dirty.
And, skipping Charlie's adventure into the land of the dinosaurs (proving
that man can tarnish and kill anything he touches without thought), we get
to Charlie finally seeing his dream...the devouring of his car/god.
The people devouring Charlie's cadillac represent supplicants taking of the
body of their god (like when you eat that little bread thingy at church
to "take of the body of Christ" then gulp down a thimble-sized portion of grape juice masquerading as Christ's blood)...it is the culmination of consumerism. The woman having sex with the car just goes to show
all those advertisements using scantily clad gravity-challenged (very
skinny bodies--very big breasts) women to sell overpriced cars (penis
extensions) to gullible men may just have been on to something.
With the consumption of the car, Charlie was "dead of dreams". Of course
he was--his dream fell short of its promised fulfillment...his soul
lay empty.
Throughout this story, Charlie asks "What time is it?" (Remember the
line "Wasted, he had done time."?)
"...as the God of Time so aptly put it, 'It's later than you think'"
(Deathbird Stories, Introduction)

GERN B. (rastelec@northland.lib.mi.us) Mon Jun 17 18:10:56 1996
Hello,
I've been a fan of Harlen Ellisons for about 17 years, this writer has been the one who opened my inner grotto wide to myself to face. Not being unduly narrsisstic I was amazed ( at such a young age ) that other people felt the same as I did. I mean I can relate to the conveied feelings of Mr. Ellison in the comments at the bottom of the picture at the end of THE MAN WHO WAS HEAVILY INTO REVENGE. Who could'nt be?
I felt elation yet had a sort of tunnel vision when I heard that my personal character builder Paul Harding had died, the guy was a pain in the keester yet also a part of my identity, so when he passed so did a part of me.
Anyway I'm very new to the web and was particularly happy when I stumbled onto this board, and, as suggested by Sue, am wading in. Hell two things that I like to do at the same time,,,wade and discuss stories by the author who was the first on the scene of my awakinging.
Any comments or info that would get me up to steam here would be greatly appreciated
Gern

Rick Mon Jun 17 14:27:07 1996
Just my two cents - the White Wolf thing in their magazine slamming Ellison was already ancient history when I started this site...it was a comment by a magazine writer, HE was given plenty of space to respond, and given the source and timeframe I doubt it represents a schism at WW or an inconsistency.

Sue Luesse (Cursing the RainGod (jaluesse@htonline.com)) Mon Jun 17 12:23:36 1996

Is it just me, or should I be putting in a reservation for the Ark?? 4 inches of septic field overload, and still coming down hard.. Just make my life easy, willya.. (;-) Weather Channel is predicitng more of the same throughout our travel time to Chicago, so cancel the Jimi-Hendrix-Acid-Rock-Purple-Leather-Jacket with the 3 ft. fringe, and say hello to red-rainsuit that looks like someone Seal-a-Mealed me.. That should give us a finely honed 'edge' by the time we get to the ComicCon.. >:-( Nothing like a half drowned, and totally discomforted biker to generate 'attitude'.. ;-p

Kris(ten) - If my quirky memory serves me right, Jeff promised to e-mail details to those interested. I'm DEFINATELY on that list, and eagerly awaiting receipt of 'The Goods'.. Think I might be in the right frame of mind to put them to good use at ComicCon, should the opportunity present itself (and possibly the right frame of mind to MAKE that opportunity happen, if it doesn't fall into my lap quickly..).. I am a firm believer in the positive power of bitching.. :)

Rick - checked out (and bookmarked, just in case) the mirror site. Bummer.. (:-( That it should even have to be considered... Always something, isn't it?.. Hope it works out for Scott. Let him know his time, expertise, and dedication to this Board has been noted and appreciated. Not much consolation for a guy possibly out of work - but the best I can do..

Wish I had time for more, but this will have to suffice for now..

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress (Pouring Tea on The Paingod....) Mon Jun 17 11:19:11 1996
Kris(ten) - I just scrolled even further back, and there's a posting from Mr. Cisneros that goes into a little more depth about White Wolf Magazine and how Chris MacCubbin slammed HE for everything from "world hunger to the Ebola virus epidemic." (Direct quote).

There may be more even further back, but I don't think so. Those 2 postings are enough to get the point across. White Wolf is chewing itself to death, if you ask me. And I will *certainly* *abolutely* *positively* allow myself to be classified as one of Harlan's "rabid" appreciators!!!

We just do it with more finesse - panache is a good word....

WolfMistress (Having Morning Tea with The Paingod....) Mon Jun 17 10:49:28 1996
Yo, Kris(ten)! - Just a quickie seeing as how I am swamped here at work, but would like to lead you in the right direction.

If you can scroll backward through the Comments Postings, go back to the one from Jeff Cisneros, dated Jun 13 - wherein he explains just what so of outfit White Wolf *really* is!

More later, if I can. It's gonna be one of those days where some unsuspecting soul is gonna get my sharp Edge, sooner or later. My backup person is out this week; we've had 4 inches of rain overnight with more on the way, and somehow, I have to make business phone calls to PA about Mom's estate *while* working!

I'm gonna chew somebody's liver before the day is out, just watch me! ;-) Hope that helps, Kris(ten).

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu (still recovering from bad hand)) Mon Jun 17 10:09:51 1996
Hey Somebody! WM and other people have brought it up, but nobody has completely talked about it -- what is THIS I hear about white wolf talkin' trash about Harlan? What is THIS I hear about White Wolf's internal strife? I didn't even know WW had a "magazine(?)". Somebody, anybody, 'splain to me, please!

The more I understand the more trouble I can make. *grin*

Barney Dannelke (Eidolon and on and on) (dannelke01@enter.net) Mon Jun 17 07:03:48 1996
addendumb: scratch one of those "on the younger"'s and I think that sentence will parce. Also, I should have mentioned the NASFIC books have a Harlan bio and great recent short story, the name of which suddenly escapes me. So we're talking obscure Ellison appearance one for one trade. I could have been clearer the 1st time. Can't wait till Mr. Gates puts out a smart checker.
Be good or at least be good for something.

Barney Dannelke (the boy with the horizontal mind) (dannelke01@enter.net) Sun Jun 16 23:09:53 1996
The subtitle ref. is from "Sex Gang" in case somebody wondered. By the way, this isn't exactly common knowledge but Larry Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" essay ad absurdem got a Major assist by Harlan so your collection just aint complete unless...
Keegan: Regarding HERC and Harlan selling his books; He doesn't actually compete with bookstores when he does this as these are books that are either out of print entirely and have been remaindered and re-purchased privately by Harlan on a "right of 1st refusal" basis or editions which have been superceded by more recent editions in different form or from different publishers. Discounts offered by HERC on forthcoming releases probably don't affect Harlan's royalty one way or the other. On the other hand, (he had a wart) most stuff from HERC is signed so there is that.
Yes, it's the same Pinkwater from NPR. The same wonderful spherically challenged [his term] person who gave us "Fat Men From Outer Space" and "I Was A Second Grade Werewolf". The same wonderfully demented person who gave the world "Lizard Music" and "The Snarkout Boys and the Avacodo of Death". Check it out. Many snaps. 6 thumbs up.
Sue! Great story!!! I can't help thinking about the O Henry story about the tramp who has to eat a number of Thanksgiving dinners in order to keep up appearances and be polite and ends up passing out in front of his best benefactor from being overstuffed. If I have distorted this it's because I read it in 5th grade. I don't usually feel "not Jewish" unless I've been around Harlan all day and then he starts to do schtick. Napolean meets Henny Youngmen. But I mean that in a good way. When Julie Schwartz calls him a mensch it seems Much more natural. I also sort of think it's a word more appropriatly bestowed on the younger by the older on the younger. I grew up in Wisconsin with the cast of "Fargo". What do I know.
General: I have a couple of extra NASFIC program books with Whelan cover. If somebody snags a couple of extra program books I'd love to trade. We each pay are own postage. E-mail me on the side if this works for anybody. Have fun one and all!

Sue Luese (Cleaning up after the Prowler In The City) Sun Jun 16 20:39:53 1996

'Happy Daddy Day' to all you Daddies. And to all you Mommies, leave the mess for tomorrow to clean up.. I am. And to all you 'kids' (of any age), give your Mom a hand before you cut and run next time.. Love family togetherness. Hate the clean-up.

Oi! Barney! - I'll tell you a secret (well, not so very secret now). I lived in Oceanside NY the first five years of my life. At the time, the place boasted more synagogues per square mile than Jerusalem, and the only school system in America that gave Jewish Holidays off as vacation time for kids. I was spoiled rotten as the only child in a neighborhood of retirees. I didn't know it then, but we were the only Goys.. So for a very long time, I thought 'schiksa' was a term of endearment (like a Specially Chosen). When I was in college (at U. of Michigan) there was a sizeable student population of jewish persuasion from NYC. A lot of the jewish guys got heavy pressure from their Moms to 'find a nice jewish girl' - and inspiration struck.. I began a Rent-a-Jewess service.. The guys would write home they were dating a 'nice jewish girl', Momma would be thrilled to send a 'little extra - to take good care of' said 'nice jewish girl', and everyone was happy. Once a semester, I would line up a series of reservations at a good restaurant, and be the 'nice jewish girl' for a dinner with my male jewish friends and their parents. I looked the part, had the accent, and knew the neighborhoods.. I 'passed'.. As the guys found Real girlfriends, they would write home we had 'broken up'. What a Racket!! If the parents knew, they never let on. Though I did get a very nice gift from the Father of one of the guys after we had 'broken up', with a note that read "Chutzpah should be rewarded"..

So, I'm not jewish (blame my mother for it), but no reason you can't be Specially Chosen.. Hard to shake those early formative years.. When I first started reading HE, and caught the drift of his 'only Jew in the Midwest' background - I chuckled.. Kinda like the Brownies switched the two of us at birth..

As to the whole Complainer Thing - part of those jewish roots I was grafted into was the High Art of Kvetching and Kibbutzing (bitching, and giving unsolicited advice). While those traits are currently politically incorrect in our 'nice' society - they are very useful in maintaining standards. Like everything else, it is how people choose to use that gives value - there is no intrinsic 'right', 'wrong', 'good', or 'bad' to anything. Determining the precise point where a 'good' use becomes a 'bad' use is what theology, philosophy, and jurisprudence is all about.

I look forward to the ComicCon. If I should meet HE, Great! And if I don't - so what changed? I am a very happy, secure nobody. We leave Thursday, and I'll give a short report (which will still be too long) when we get back.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Sun Jun 16 19:21:42 1996
Hey all, boy-- you're gone for a weekend and all hell breaks loose...I think everybody saw WolfMistress being nice to me, so I can prove itin court now, if it's necessary. *grin* Nice to hear fromthe non-angry you, WM --most of us nasty little people have one of those sides too. I like to think that people like me and your mom and harlan (who wrote an entire article on magazine labels, let's not forget) do some great good in the world by reminding people that,as they say, "God is in the details." To atheists, that simply means that the details are important -- but people forget that. Details make the whole, though.
Allow me, WM, to acquaint you with Harlan's most famous (and silliest, at times) rant -- he hates the nickname "sci-fi" and pronounces it "skiffy" as in, "if you like peanut butter, you'll love skiffy." I am thankful to hear that you've gained some appreciation for the troublemakers in this world. We thankyou and offer our hands in friendship, me in particular.
JASON: Dear, Jason...my commentary about punching anyone in the nose who doesn't like harlan was entirely unrelated to the revenge argument, and were i not in such good humor lately, i would resent your making the connection...I was simply speaking QUITE metaphorically...It was a JOKE...I could just as easily have said spit on them, or run them over with the nearest piece of heavy machinery. This reminds me of the time thst I had a teacher who read a story of mine in class in called it a magnificent allegory...even though it was written simply to satisfy her bullshit assignment...*sigh* no hard feelings, jas...
Sue: sounds like you have lots of good news lately -- congradualtions on all of it...
i'm very sorry if there were lots of typos and ugliness in this note, but i'm trying to type with on hand boundup due to recent tendonitus...the things i do for you people...*grin*

Rick Wyatt (webmaster@harlanellison.com) Sun Jun 16 11:51:31 1996
Strange things afoot at snider.net, people - this message is a cautionary one.

The internet provider at snider/tce (snider telecom) decided to disassociate itself from the bulletin board/entertainment service (the "tce" part), and several people are now out on the street. Our webmaster Scott is also locked out of his office and the computer room, but hasn't been canned - YET.

Needless to say, since Webderland exists at Scott's sufferance and with his aid, our days here may be limited. If nothing else my ability to fix things like the comments page and to keep the animated GIFs working will be severely curtailed. I have set up a mirror for Webderland at:

http://harlanellison.com

...and will be working on converting it into workable form. The comments page will still live here, for now, until I can figure out a way to get it working on my menagerie server.

I apologize for any trouble this may cause you, and I will do my best to make sure all pages here get a referral to the new site if Webderland moves. I would prefer that it live at www.menagerie.net anyway, as that is *MY* server and I won't have to worry about crap like this.

I'll let you know more as I know more - for now, enjoy ComicCon and be sure and mention you heard about it on Webderland!

keegan Sun Jun 16 11:28:24 1996
Hey, Barney- Is that the Pinkwater who does commentary for Public Radio? Just curious...

Another question: Does Harlan make more money on a book purchased from HERC rather than from one's friendly local bookstore? Like to see him earn as much as possible...

Sue- haven't forgotten ya. A little crazier here than anticipated. Glad to hear your vehicles are up and running again!

Sun Jun 16 09:17:41 1996
i read that zach morrison thing between him and someone named amber....i thought that was really sweet

valarie Sun Jun 16 09:12:39 1996

Barney Dannelke (Jerkwater Town on the Edge of Forever) (dannelke01@enter.net) Sun Jun 16 01:34:25 1996
Wolfmistress: My belated condolences. I didn't want to seem cold but I'm no good at what to say regarding losses. All I've figured out is that it's a process that can take years to work thru and if the feelings were mixed it's even longer. Perservere.
Sue: It's no exclusive club and it's no footrace. I take it you're meeting Harlan for the 1st time. I envy you. I would love to meet people I admire for the 1st time over and over again. There's a short story idea.
The word mensch occured to me but not being Jewish I always thought it was odd/presumptuous to confer on others. But yes, he certainly is.
Folks: I can't make the city of the big shoulders gig so 2 requests... Please somebody post info regarding tapes of main events (Harlan related) address/prices etc. Also,any tapes audio or video that supplant/supercede what the con does I would be very interested in. Finally, anybody who reads this please tell Harlan I said hello. That goes double for Susan. If more then 5 people do it it will make a great running joke. I want to be ubiquitous in my abscence!
Rick: Thanks for posting the Stoker award info. Was this taped? I guess I should just email them myself.
Folks again: [Harlan trivia] I'm reading "Gorbel" by D.M. Pinkwater which is about a cranky old man from the "Old Country" who hates television and insuates himself on a family he may (or may not) be related to. He makes the nephew answer vocabulary questions before bestowing favors. The old man seemed oddly familiar and lo and behold, I turn to the dedication page and it's dedicated to Harlan Ellison "who keeps on trying." Hah!!

Shhhhue Sun Jun 16 00:18:22 1996

Sorry Jason. It was YOUR quote of Michael Crichton I was thinking of..
Barney - Guess I really enjoyed your point of view, wanted to give you credit for *everything*..

ZZZZZZsnorkZZschrftZZZZZ

Sue Luesse (Pouting is REALLY boring...) Sun Jun 16 00:04:45 1996

Guess I can put off sleep for another 'few' minutes.

Charles - thanks for the input on At The Mouse Circus. So far, we all agree that we each have our personal brand of confusion with regard to that story (and to the ONE bozo who still thinks they have the only true take on it - phhhttttp! ;)~ ).

BTW - Condolences go to WolfMistress on the death of her Mother. My best buds' hubby (Dale) is finally at home (with an oxygen tank, and enough pain killers to make a fortune on the street) feeling MUCH more 'comfortable' spending what time he has with family and friends. He says, "I don't even KNOW that guy, and I'm NOT DEAD YET..." But he did appreciate the sentiment. (Think he makes a good HE fan?? He's reading my copy of Deathbird Stories, and thinks it is a "stitch".)

My bike is back, better than ever. Helps when your mechanic is also a 'customizer', and a good buddy.. Not only is the gas leak fixed, but the tank is mysteriously shiny, larger, and a different shade of black.. I'm told I no longer have to stop for gas every 100 miles (double that now), and 'the bore' is twice what it used to be, due to a 'reaming' (which, in cager (car) talk, means the effective horsepower was doubled by enlarging the engine cylinders). As a HE fan, it tickled me that 'reaming' a 'bore' generated improved performance.. 8) Took it for a test run (just half a day riding), and it is such an amazing improvement, I've stopped talking about getting a bigger bike for the long trips. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy...Rapture and Bliss! Now I'm REALLY looking forward to *riding* to Chicago.. Hey, simple minds - simple pleasures.. :)

The pile-of-crap Escort is also back from the shop. They swore the tank was rusted out (though there was no rust visible, and there was no leak until AFTER they replace the fuel pump located in the gas tank..). We swore back, and left it parked across their bay doors leaking gas.. They *discovered*, when they moved it, there were gaskets missing (??), and 'take care of it for free'... It is a rolling pile-of-crap sans gas leak again (and Pullease God don't let them come back..).

It is very interesting to hear so much 'testimony' for HE. Barney's quote (from I forgot who) about HE fans going ballistic in his defense sounds a lot like sour grapes to me. Jealousy is a strange beastie.. I hear people say, "Truth hurts", a lot - when they aren't so much telling the truth, as trying to hurt. I don't believe the truth hurts. I think the lies exposed by the truth hurt the pride, ego, and emotions of those that told/believed the lies. No prophet is welcome in his own land, the Good Book says.. Seems HE could be a Poster Child for that cause.

I think I ran out of my 'few minutes'.. Fathers' Day tomorrow, with special 'family' doin's (in addition to regular weekend stuff) means 'no rest for the wicked', so I better get it while I can.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonline.com) Sat Jun 15 21:01:45 1996

GEEEEeeeezzzz!!!... {8- 0 Guess I really AM a nobody.. No *personal* nothin' to add... No testimonials... This better be one **HELL** of a ComicCon, or I'll be cast out into Lurker Limbo... [;-)~

Does thinking the guy is a mensch count? Is there an fine print clause for those who "not having seen, still have believed"? Yikes! What size boots does HE wear, Rick?? I get the feeling it's going to TAKE something to stay in this club.. ;)

Anyone else just a schlub, like me?

I'm gonna go pout. Five days to ComicCon, and counting down...

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan (happy shatterday morning, folks!) Sat Jun 15 10:15:16 1996
Well, I'll add to the roar of testimonials regarding Harlan's generosity and kindness. After finding Webderland, I learned that Harlan had a fondness for a certain candy bar (Clarks, to which he wrote an ode of sorts in "Jeffty is Five"). Harlan could not procure them and thought they were out of production. I saw some on the shelf of our friendly, local gas 'n'gulp and informed the webmaster of this page that I was willing to hook Harlan up. I expected that HE wouldn't want to be bothered with the grizzly details of UPS, especially since it would divulge his location to yet another "fan". Imagine my surprise one night as I sat at dinner with a mouthful of black-bean soup, hearing my husband answer the phone and say, "Well, yes, Mr. Ellison, she IS here. I'll put her right on".

My heart jumped. I was tounge-tied. Harlan was great. He said Rick told him I had Clark bars and that he was indeed interested in them. He gave me his home address and made me SWEAR never to divulge it to a single soul. I offered to swear on the lives of my children. He declined, saying, "Oh, no. Now we're getting a little creepy." For the record, I destroyed the address as soon as I sent the package. If I ever really need to reach Harlan, I'm sure I can get a message to him through HERC. The personal, kind service of Susan Ellison on behalf of that organization deserves mention, too. So rare to find such as that in business ventures these days.

I was thrilled by my brush with Harlan's celebrity. It was enough reward for me that I could thank him personally for his work, but Harlan showed his generosity by INSISTING on returning the favor somehow. I refused to take cash. He offered me books. How could I refuse THAT? I graciously accepted and received two books, one of which was "Memos From Purgatory". It was signed-"To Lauri Keegan, with thanks for the old Clark Bars". I treasure it (not to mention that the book itself really got my juices flowing, being one who works with young people).

Barney's right, the Enemies of Ellison are just the whine of sour grapes in the face of vintage humanity. Harlan is a human being with all the pros and cons that state carries. I don't want to seem like I'm bragging about things. I'm merely speaking up to say that I've experienced Harlan's kindness. I suspect that if I behave myself, I'll never experience his wrath. That's plenty for me......

Barney Dannelke (From A to Z in the Capsicum Alphabet) (dannelke01@enter.net) Fri Jun 14 23:29:13 1996
[mini-testimonial] I've known Harlan for 19 years and have seen him on both good days and bad and while I would never shine people on by saying that he is always pleasant (or even consistant) I will say that I have NEVER seen him use excessive force in defending himself or his friends (I include the Charles Platt "incident" which I witnessed) nor have I ever seen or heard of him launching first. His notion that revenge is as indispensible as oxygen sometimes puts him in situations that I would try to avoid is simply a reflection of where you decide to draw the line. Would you like that shit sandwich with or without crusts? On the other hand, I could fill this entire forum up with anecdotes of kindnesses acknowledged and favors returned in spades. I've watched Harlan at signings that have gone on for 6 hours excercise more restraint then Mother Theresa on Prozac. Buttonhole any professional in Science Fiction or Fantasy and they will tell you stories of kindness and courtesy above and beyond. What suprises me these days is how amazed people are when they find it out. Face it, Enemies of Ellison was a WEAK attempt at character assassination. 40 years writing and I doubt there membership was more then a dozen. How many people de-lurked last month? Rick? 700? 1,000? What's HERC's membership? 1500+ ? If I could go thru life accruing that kind of friend to enemy ratio I'd be a happy guy. End of maudlin sermon.
Just to prove that I think pissing into strong winds and dodging ought to be an olympic sport I'm going to say something here in favor of White Wolf. It is a pretty book. Put it next to the Belmont editions of "Over the Edge" or the TPB edition of "An Edge in My Voice". No Dillon cover but,still. Imagine how cool 20 or 25 or 31 of them would look all lined up next to my Effinger 1st editions and my Farmer 1st editions. Neat, huh? I love Harlan but giving Harlan money for 30 books is an act of FAITH. Not one he doesn't deserve,but an act of faith nevertheless. I believe White Wolf made an OK 1st attempt. Check out early editions of "Dhalgren" or most Delaney for that matter if you want to see botched jobs. Ask Algis Budrys about Avon. Ask Norman Spinrad about the 1st ed. of "Bug Jack Baron". "The horror...the horror..." If a 2nd (or later) printing doesn't address some of this that would be sad but I am planning on outliving the paper some of my early obscure Ellison is printed on and so should you all. This is the best chance Harlan has of seeing a uniform edition of his work published in his lifetime and frankly I'd hate to see it go the way of other well intentioned projects. Sure, someday it will be perfect but I've never been good at deferring my pleasures. There, I've said it. You all know where I live. Where's my asbestos keyboard and monitor...

WolfMistress (Making it all up at once....) Fri Jun 14 16:15:09 1996
A quick comment: to clarify that my Mom got coupons for *free* cakemix & frosting. She got so many, I don't think she ever used them all up!

Also, I happened to like the hell out of "Kindred: The Embraced"! But then, I have a thing for vampires of all kinds. Whatever. I thought the show was so good (especially the guy who played Julian) that I hunted the Net for all the downloadable Kindred stuff!

OK, so maybe I'm missing something here; God knows, it wouldn't be the first time. But what is *wrong* with these people at White Wolf who contract to do all of HE's stuff then cut him to pieces in their own magazine????? What's the deal? Should we even trust White Wolf to fullfill the commitment to print HE's stuff? (God help them if they don't!)

It all just seems so odd that a popular, obviously successful publishing house like this should be so petty and bitchy - or employ people who are. THOUGHT: The bad proofreading work on Edgeworks was another way of getting at HE instigated by that Chris MacCubbin person - or someone sympathetic to MacCubbin's pov after HE tore into him in response.

I have the feeling this whole White Wolf thing is gonna get very bloody before it's all over....

WolfMistress (Part II (Since it wouldn't take it all at once!)) Fri Jun 14 15:43:56 1996
Continued to Kris(ten): OK - granted the $25 for Edgeworks isn't a big deal to me, but you are 100% on target about it being a lot to someone else. But the cost isn't even the issue. The issue is pride in creating something hundreds (thousands? millions?) of Ellison fans/appreciators) are going to buy to matter what condition it's in.

I think that is what prompted my nasty attitude -- I was disappointed in that aspect of Edgeworks and simply didn't want to keep talking about it. Ellison *anything* is just about *all* I will buy sight-unseen/unchecked, etc. It looked so beautiful, I thought HE was finally getting his just due - then to find the classic stories marred by White Wolf's inattention. Frankly, it is unpardonable.

What to do about it?? I have no idea. HE is aware of it; White Wolf is aware of it. I guess we just have to wait and see what shakes out of all this.

Oh, Kris(ten) - you can be readily forgiven for thinking HE was a "skiffy writer". What does that *mean* anyway?? Sounds deliciously rude to me.... 8-}. I guess I should pay more attention to a key ring I have that says, "The More You Complain, The Longer God Let's You Live". Maybe that was Mom's secret.....;-).

WolfMistress

WolfMistress (rwhiteanderson@kraft.com ) Fri Jun 14 15:43:24 1996
Hi, Folks! - Heartfelt thanks to one and all for condolences/best wishes. Mom had 85 years of celebrating: I've got 39 more to go....! Haven't totally caught up with all your commentary. Geez, we're a vociferous bunch, aren't we?? But then, look who our MENTOR is!!!! The one comment that comes quickly to mind, is the following:

Kris(ten): to be honest, I groaned to see the group was *still* commenting on the condition of Edgeworks, Vol.1. But I read your last posting, and realized that perhaps I was just being bitchy the day I flamed at you and started our 'Private Little War'. I apologize. Because your actions remind me of my Mom.

She was a Complainer (capital 'C'). Her stand was that if she was paying good money for something, it should *be* what she is paying for, no matter what it was. If something wasn't right when she got it home, she trekked all the way back to wherever she had gotten it, to lodge a complaint with the Manager (always Managers, no underlings), and to ask for a replacement or a refund. She did this with anything she had paid for and was not up to 'snuff', no matter if it was a mail-order purchase, or a local buy. I remember she once sent a whole box of Duncan Hines cake mix back to the factory because it had mealy bugs in (right from the store), with a letter of complaint. The company sent her coupons for about a years-worth of cakemixes and frostings!!!

My attitude was "why bother?" Shit happens. The older I've gotten, the more complacent I've become about getting good service or good anything, for that matter. There are no "craftsmen" anymore, and nobody really gives a damn as long as they can make a buck. Totally against my upbringing -- I have come to accept this!!!! You and your comments have served to reawaken me, in light of my recent event. here. She - and you - are absolutely correct. Why should we settle for second-rate work when it is so unnecessary?? One of the TV shows - Dateline or Primetime - had a whole show devoted to how Americans have become apathetic when it comes to complaining about anykind of shoddy work, a dis-service, or anything. They even showed that if someone did want to complain, most of the time they couldn't even find someone who would listen!

(Continued)

Charles (cem@flex.net) Fri Jun 14 12:09:19 1996
For what its worth, re-read "Mouse Circus", remembered it, still had problems with it but, the feeling I get out of it is in our desire to remember and enjoy the pleasures of our past, or even relive, we have a tendency to corrupt or even destroy that which made it enjoyable. Not one of the easier stories, and one I think each person will decrypt in his/her own fashion.

Wolfmistress(?): Give my condolances to your 'buds' hubby, having lost my grandfather, the only person who understood and dealt with my rebelous stage, to the "C" 12 years ago still hurts. Like your friend he too asked the doctor "if I stay will you cure me? No, s'long." And while it lets the person retain thier dignity it still hurts.

Can't remember who was looking for those back issues of "Dream Corridor" but I can help out with the special and #1. E-mail me and we"ll discuss specifics.

Ththththtats all for now folks.

Sue (or someone who resembles her) Fri Jun 14 10:59:37 1996

Rick - read the News update on the way out. Hurray! And congrats on the Webderland honors.. Now what exactly do they mean?? );-)~

Takes me forvever to PS, doesn't it???

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonline) Fri Jun 14 09:25:30 1996

Boy-Howdie.. Hubby is 'fine tuning' the 'puter and I've already had two crashes.. Hmmm.. And he did something to the fonts, 'cause the Board looks like "Dick and Jane" type printing.. Thought at first I had really slipped a widget, and was half expecting the fly to talk to me ("Hi. My name is Phoebe. Why does everyone act like I'm not here?.Rick's hardly ever here, and EVERYONE talks to him..I'm right here, and no one talks to ME...) I need to get more sleep!

Life is pretty busy. Oldest girl is getting married July 20, and we've 'hit the wall' on preparations. First Shower was Sunday (loads of fun - and work), and that is just the beginning. Best buddy's husband is in the 'make him comfortable' final stage of cancer, and wants to come home to die (a few weeks at most from now). They're holding up as well as can be expected, and what kind of friend would I be if I didn't handle the business end of things so they can spend their time together. Both my bike, and the back-up pile of crap Escort sprung gas tank leaks at the same time. Go figure! So I was reduced to stealing my sons truck, and getting a headache from the LOUD music (still haven't figured out how that mini-computer called the stereo works). And life goes on.. Just don't have the time to squat and think, much less read. Maybe in a month or two..

Brian - HE books like stamps?? More collectable in their 'oopsies'?? I like that twisted slant! (;-)

WolfMistress - Good to have you back. I was starting to think all the 'cool' people on the Board were doing a 'private room' thing, slipping out one at a time, and I would end up the only one here.. Glad to hear you have found peace with it. Hey, no appologies needed for that! If it works for you, it's fine by me.

Keegan - I think I'm jealous.. {8-p You're heading into a 'recharge your jets' summer of kick back, and I'm heading into the whirlwind.. Sigh.. About horror flicks - I can appreciate the technological wonder, and wonder why a perfectly good terror story (which involves tension, and lets my imagination do the dirty work) is ruined by removing the ultimate horror of the unknown. I do worry about de-sensitization. So much gore on the screen tends to trivialize the lesser gore of real life, which should engender a concerned response. Any time people laugh at pain, I worry.

Jeff - thanks for the explaination. I look forward to the e-mail details (still a small-town farming community mentallity here, is that GOSSIP? Let me at it!!). ;-)

Kris(ten) - Don't downplay what has meaning to YOU. I keep saying, it is ALWAYS the individual that is the bottom line. That's all there really is - individual people (even if there are vast numbers of them). HE suffers from bad PR because too many people generalize him into a bad attitude, and don't bother to see him as a person, with a lot more to him than just an 'edge'. If that's all HE is, then all his detractors are right. It meant a lot to YOU - and YOU have value as a person. That makes it meaningful. I think I'm a wee bit green with envy, and tickled pink for you (and now I clash with myself, so I can't go anywhere until I settle down).

Jason - I agree. Many years of 'battling the system' have taught me to use reason and patience, rather than threats and violence. You really can't MAKE people, only make them do it more when you aren't there (the revenge factor). You can educate and enlighten, so they choose differently. The definitive moment in our family for setting that value in stone came when the kids were still small. I used to lecture (for hours on end) until I knew my little pedunks 'got it', and would choose differently next time. One bright, beautiful, Summer day, as I was 'discussing a problem' with my four little guys, watching friends outside play and squirming, my oldest (then 6 yrs. old) asked me "Why can't Daddy just beat us when he gets home, like all the other Daddies do??".

Now I know the neighbors, and I know none of them beat their children - so I was stunned to hear that a swat on the butt, and sent to your room was 'a beating'. Daughter informed me she learned that in KINDERGARDEN from the teachers - ANY time ANYONE touches you in ANY way you don't like is abuse. And my kids all agreed the sting of a swat was over quicker than our 'discussions', and left them more time to do what they wanted.. We laugh about it now (with a little ache in the heart for how twisted children are taught to be), and all my now-grown children agree the best thing we gave them as parents (asside from the love) was the mental skills to reason through choices.

My best to you all, and hope I get the time for another massive 'catch-up' post soon. Do so enjoy the environment here.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Jason (Repenting with the Harlequin) (yu104681@yorku.ca) Fri Jun 14 01:16:02 1996
Kris(10) Your story brings to mind some Mike Crichton wrote in Approaching Oblivion, 'Other writers have fans, Harlan Ellison has followers who will beat up anybody who says a bad word about him.' Despite my earlier stant on revenge or mayhap because of it. I have to disagree with you on your course of action. It is after all part of our job in life to enlighten those who are ignorant. Being careful not to make the same assumptions about ignorance that the pilgrims did about the Indians.
In my writing class I offered The Whimper of Whipped Dogs, as a story I admired. One flatline in the class, dismissed it because she thought the story starts out as a psychological story, and then screws it up with metaphysical crap at the end. She's way off base, but fine HE can be an acquired taste for some. But then she goes on to criticize me for bringing in a sexist and racist story. My reaction was somewhat akin to Hera's after she found out that Zeus was slepping around on her, again.
Of course punching her in the nose was not an option. Instead I said something along the lines of you should go to the bathroom if gonna spout bull$#!Ŭ. Otherwise keep your mouth shut about things you have no right to make judgement on. I then went on to describe HE's efforts for equal rights for both race and gender. Seeing her look at me in impotent rage, was one of my most satisfying moments. On the downside I was deemed a 'meany' from then on and was told many times that I went too far.
What can you do?
WM My condolences as well, by the way have you heard from Amazon.com about the job yet?
keegan I agree with everything HE says, so there's not much to comment on.
Jason

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Thu Jun 13 22:38:47 1996
Sue: I'm not teasing -- I swear. I'm just...sharing, yeah, that's it. Seriously, though, it's really rare that people with billions of deadlines who are recovering from a heart attack and juggling said deadlines, new work, old work, and toastmastering respond to their mail at all, let alone so quickly. And that's all I've got to say bout that, 'cause I just wanted to say that we all always thing he's a great author and all, but I'll vouch for the fact that he's a nice guy if anyone asks. It's really no big deal and not the impressive in the big picture, but it mattered to me. Does anyone know where I can get an application for the Friends of Ellison?
WM: Please add me to the list of people expressing their consolences. It will be a year August 3rd since I lost my grandfather -- in a manner I would not have chosen -- and during this last year, _Angry_Candy_ has been my bible. Believe it or not, before that book, I thought Harlan Ellison was just another skiffy writer.

Jeff Cisneros (Bleeding Stones) (jcisneros@ichange.com) Thu Jun 13 22:35:07 1996
Sorry about being late with the clarification for those who wanted it, just in case I will send private e-mail to those interested parties. Mark Rhein*Hagen is the President and creator of the Vampire: The Masquerade Game, as well as the co-producer of the ill-fated "Kindred: The Embraced" tv series. He is the primary person who was responsible for signing Harlan's backlist. As President of White Wolf Game Studios, he also enjoys final editing responsibility for major projects. Chris MacCubbin wrote a column in White Wolf magazine entitled "Out of your Mother's Basement," he is the big schmuck who called Harlan nasty names in print without his boss' permission. Stewart Wieck is Mr. Rhein*Hagen's executive assistant and thus shares ultimate editorial responsibility. I wrote freelance for White Wolf Magazine until Mr. MacCubbin started using his column as a place to sharpen his teeth on other folk's bones. Harlan got his return lumps on MacCubbin in the magazine, but it still left a rather sour taste in my mouth. I note that the magazine soon went out of business. Although I don't know for sure, but I really doubt that many more prominent authors will be doing work with WW, such is the power of the coconut telegraph (the grapevine).

Keep smilin',

Jeff Cisneros

keegan (loungin' in the Little Life Hutch) Thu Jun 13 21:48:03 1996
Hey, all. Just dropping in to say hi. The final report cards are all written, the final concert is over. All I gotta do now is entertain 'em for a week, and after all, isn't that what music is about?

Anyway, in roughly a week I will have much more time to read. Perhaps then I will have something of significance to add to this conversation. Then again, maybe not.:) In the meantime, anyone care to comment about their reactions to "The Thick Red Moment" and/or "Three Faces of Fear" (Yeah, I know I brought this up a few k ago, but thought I'd ask again). What do you think about the state of cinema today--especially the "horror" genre? Is it getting any better? I think arguments could be made either way. Anyway, just curious.

Wolfmistress-Glad you're back. Condolences on your loss. It sounds like she had a wonderful life and gave you much.

Sue-look for email any day now!

WolfMistress (Low Pressure Regions Between....) Thu Jun 13 16:26:35 1996
Before someone gets the wrong idea about the fact that my Mom has died and I'm right back on the Board like nothing happened, all I can say is that the belief system she and I share celebrates Life, in any and all forms. This is *my* belief system, and it works for me. I honor my Mom by getting on with my Life. She had 85 beautiful years and was healthy & sharp-minded to the end. It was sudden and very quick, just as she said it would be. My Mom was a whirlwind who left a few little petals of love wherever she went. I will miss her, but I do not mourn nor do I grieve. I do what she did: barrel-ass through Life as best I can, enjoying nearly every minute of it.

And -- A big HELLLOOOOO! to all the newcomers. You'll get enough of me, sooner or later....

The WolfMistress

WolfMistress (Returned from The Region Between....) Thu Jun 13 09:26:39 1996
I'm BAAAAACK! Massive shock-time last week - got word my Mom had died in her house in Pittsburgh. Shock, deisbelief, disjointedness. Mad scramble to get my son + companion from Oshkosh and head a 1000 miles to PA. Between then and now, my son and I have found the peace & love "which passeth all understanding." It works for us.

And we learned my Mom's planning, arrangements, investments, etc. were a helluva lot more far-reaching than we ever knew. However, that is behind me, and I was curious about something: I found among my hundreds (it appears so, anyway!) of SF paperbacks, etc. from the '70s forward, an interesting little number edited by the late Terry Carr.

It is #6 (I think) of The World's Best Science Fiction and contains an HE story -- "Seeing". Does anyone out there know this story and anywhere else it may have appeared??? Thanks all! More later. Trying to play catch-up with my job here. I don't even know what I was doing last week....

Jason (Trying to manicure a glass hand) Wed Jun 12 22:38:14 1996
Shaz as the resident comic expert of the board, (if anyone out there claims different, too bad) I can tell you getting Dream Corridor is about as easy as getting hold of his work normally. Best bet, and this is for everybody who wants copies of DC find a mail order comic store either online or through a comic magazine and try and ordering it from them. If that fails call up every comic store in the area and ask if they have it. If they don't get a recommendation for another store.
And if that doesn't work, call up go to the yellow pages and call up every comic store until you find them.

Unca Harlan was back on @discovery.ca again. This time the subject was time travel, several of HE's stories were mentioned; Soldier, Demon with a glass hand and a certain star trek episode. Terminator was also mentioned, although it was only mentioned as() though that's possibly because of the terms of the lawsuit.
HE also talked about one of his favourite time travel movies, can you guess what it is? No... not The Time Machine. Not Slaughterhouse 5. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure!! Now I know why HE likes Friends.
HE's on the Anti-Gravityroom is on again, for me anyway I'll pass on details for those who can't see it for one reason or another.

A Demain mes amis.
Jason

Brian Ekberg (ekbergb@mindspring.com) Wed Jun 12 21:06:34 1996
I wonder if the uncorrected, error-laden Vol. 1 of Edgeworks will be worth money one day? Not that I intend to sell it or anything. I just would like to hold in front of my friends' faces and shriek at them with mocking tones until their self-worth goes down the pooper. Good day.

Sue Luesse (Looking for the Lost Hour - I could use it(jaluesse@htonline.com)) Wed Jun 12 19:14:19 1996

Charles - At The Mouse Circus is in Deathbird and Essential Ellison. Have at it (and keep the aspirin handy..)

Kris(ten) - It's not nice to tease.. ;-) So what brought on your testimony in HE's behalf??

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Wed Jun 12 18:10:03 1996
Gang, I'm glad for once to be able to offer the general lot of you a bit of advice my from small stock of exciting personal experiences:
If anyone ever tries to tell you that Harlan Ellison is not just a really great human being who has it in him to "thoughtfully gesture" toward us mere mortals, punch them right in the nose and walk away.

Charles (cem@flex.net) Wed Jun 12 04:18:25 1996
I"m back, sorry about the delay, just moved into new house and been busy out the yin/yang, but have my office now and wife doesnt complain about me working in dining room. Ya'll will have to give me detail on which of the thousands of books and periodicals I'm unpacking so I can re-read Mouse Circus and give my comments on. Excuse me if I seem scatterbrained at hte juncture but I still see boxes and crates and tape, oh my, in my dreams with no end in sight. Between the 8 boxes of video and 22 boxes of books and magazines just for my office I'm going crazzy (dont get me started on rest of crap). Seems that alot of talk going on here about quality of binding and typos. No problem here with the binding, but then I handle the books like they were printed with plutonium ink, as for the typos blame it on rush job, or cross-eyed nun with a bottle of gin hired as a proofreader, but with mail going in it's got to be better (I hope). Will close for now, got a couple of boxes of plates to open just to find a glass. ]}:>

Shaz Tue Jun 11 18:15:29 1996
I just picked up a copy of "The Book of Imaginary Beings" by Jorge Luis
Borges. It's quite interesting--a definite reference book for anyone
curious about the historic background of such creatures as the Basilisk
and the Double and the like found in Ellison's stories
Has anyone else read "Djinn, No Chaser", which I found in a sf humor
compilation titled "Smart Dragons, Foolish Elves"? Granted, it is far
from Harlan's greatest work, but it's damn amusing.
Oh and I promise to get to that review of "At The Mouse Circus" sometime
today (after I've had some sleep and attended my Dutch language class
in the afternoon). Right now I'm dead tired.
BTW, I got my hands on a HE Dream Corridor #4 this weekend in Amsterdam,
and wish to find the rest of the series. Just how hard would such comics printed in 1995 be to come by? I have no experience collecting/buying comics, so I would appreciate a tip from someone who knows.

Sue Luesse Tue Jun 11 10:52:44 1996

Here I go again..

Barney - I did drop by Inkspots, and it was just as you promised - quite a complete resource for writers, illustrators, and 'book people'. I tend to be a 'goodernuff' type, rather than a 'completist', but enjoyed learning about the Dillons anyway (do like their memorable cover art).

Kris(ten) - lost the second two thirds of that last post (and Rick promised.. I'm going over his head, and tell on him - to Toonces (;-)~ ). If you are interested, e-mail - and we can discuss further.

Jim and WolfMistress - I promise not to do it again (if you promse to tell me what it was).. Miss you guys..

Sue Luesse (Jealous of Jefty, having just voted and wondering why) Tue Jun 11 10:43:12 1996

Had a 'local' election - nothing important, just how much higher taxes can go, and who is going to spend this ill-got gain for us.. I think all the candidates had the same campaign manager, who xeroxed a single resume for them all.. So few people voting that the Election Workers were offering free coffee and donuts to anyone who would stay and chat to ease the boredom. They got excited at the 'rush' we created just before the polls closed, when eight of us showed up to vote at once (our family).. Never say your vote doesn't count, though. With ten minutes to go, our family 'voting bloc' accounted for 5% of the total number of votes cast. That would have been more meaningful if there had been a real choice..

Been thinking about the 'quality' issue. A quick scan of our bookshelves shows exactly when Star Wars and Star Trek made their mark. The older s-f is yellowing pages rubberbanded between covers, with very few hardcovers. Most of the newer stuff still looks like books. I have to conclude that the overall quality of publications in the s-f genre is improving. It seems to me quality rose, but not quite as quickly as purchase price - and the explosion in volume (market increase) had more to do with availability and selection. I think waving that green, folding stuff in their faces while repeating what you expect for it can have an effect on business-types. Just don't expect too much... (8-)~

Jason - thanks for the 'preview'.. I'll tape, and watch at my leisure (like I have any time for that in the midst of Graduation/Wedding season - it may be a while).

Kris(ten) - I've read the same numbers as you cite from your class, and wondered about it. Though there is no way to know if people *read* what they buy, more books are being printed and sold than ever before (according the the bottom lines tracked and taxed by the Feds, and the huge increase in publishing catalogues).. Maybe it is only in America??

Jason Mon Jun 10 23:32:49 1996
I'll take a look Barney

Something I'd pay to see. HE on Celebrity Jepoardy. Just for the five second interview.

HE on t.v.! No idea if any of you get these shows. The discovery channel was doing a five part series on SF and the impact on the world or something like that. In the first part HE had a very quick apperance, but I think he'll appear again. The other show I believe is on your USA network it's called the Anti-Gravity Room. The episode is about collecting, and Harlan is featured for ten minutes. With short sections of Harlan on... Harlan on everything, Harlan onHarlan and ironically enough Harlan on Death. to paraphrase; When I'm about a minute and a half from death, I'm going summon all of my remaining strength sit up in my deathbed and go; Th-th-th-that's all folks!'
I'll give you more when it repeats on Thursday.
Jason

Barney Dannelke (Jefty is 5 and GLAD he can't vote) (dannelke01@enter.net ) Mon Jun 10 08:00:58 1996
This isn't the cool place it ought to be (yet) but there heart is in the right place so I would like to recommend this link to Ellisonalia ephemerists and other completists - http://www.interlog.com/~ohi/inkspot/illus/dillon.html#project They seem to be just getting started and I could think of a couple of Dillons just off the top of my head that were not mentioned but "Rome wasn't" blah blah blah. Perhaps somebody here would like to send them an addendum. Just a thought. I stated out collecting Dillon stuff as a direct result of the Pyramid Ellison re-issue line but now have way more than I would have imagined even existed. I also have bought and read some wonderful books that I otherwise would have never even seen-let alone considered. Do I judge a book by it's cover? Does the Pope have a bunch of hats you shouldn't wear to a tractor pull at the Outagamee Speedway in Appleton, WI. ? At any rate, I just thought I'd mention it. Later still...

Barney Dannelke (Still Looking for Kadak) (dannelke01@enter.net) Sun Jun 9 21:12:04 1996
I'm Baaaaaack! Since we seem to be back to normal (post cardiac event wise) I thought I'd contribute this little tidbit. Aardwolf Comics (no Whitewolf genetic match) has just solicited - read 3 months from now - "Strange Kaddish: Tales You Wont Hear From Bubbie" featuring stuff by Messner-Loebs, Neal Gaiman, and some cranky old Jew by the name of Ellison. $10 US / limited to 4000 copies. Which Ellison is it? Don't know. New material? Don't know. Words and pretty pictures? Don't know. Do I brush often enough? Do you see where this is going? Since I collect it ALL it doesn't matter but you may want to pester your local comic shop for more info. Or just call HIM at home. To the One person who didn't get that - don't. On a different note I just wanted to say I also thought it was terrific the way everybody de-lurked for best wishes a couple of weeks ago. I would imagine Harlan now knows how Huck felt at his own funeral. Here's hoping he's harder to get rid of than Teddy Roosevelt. Later...

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Sun Jun 9 19:30:59 1996
Hey guys: I just reread my comment and I don't want to get anything started with my line about a small book-buying minority, so I will explain my self. In my last class of media studies (hey, she's a journalist -- everyone who guessed right gets a cookie at recess) the frightening statistic was put forth that the average American buys one book a year -- and that's not even solid proof that they read it. NOW THEN, if you're like me (or my boyfriend), you buy MUCH more than your share. A quick glance at my bookshelf tells me I buy maybe 30 a semester for my own enjoyment, which means I knock approximately 60 or so people out of the stats every year just by myself. So while I hate to admit it, those of us who actually BUY and READ books are a minority. I fear for the future of this country, but it still means there's a lot of pressure on those of us who DO read to demand some semblance of quality from artists and publishers.

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Sun Jun 9 19:10:18 1996
keegan: Well, those of us who already bought it have made our voices heard as it were. E-mail screaming, an entire page here dedicated to typos and a generally-upset community are all effective ways of communication, but I am a firm believer in the impact of an old-fashioned letter. So I mailed one to White Wolf. I tried to be kind, yet firm. One outta two ain't bad. I would encourage others to follow in my footsteps as well (well, perhaps ya'll *could* also be kind) and sign your name to a small missive and invest the $.32 to let WW know you're not a happy consumer. If you've paid for the project, you have every right to review it.
And as for Essential falling apart, I am not at all unhappy with my hardcover copy, but the book is probably too large to be a paperback bound in that manner. I know it wasn't specified, but I expect it was the paperback copy. Either way, go ahead and complain to Morpheus, too. If it had fallen apart so soon, I would've taken it back to the store at which it was purchased.
I think my point here is that we as consumers have been well-conditioned for planned obsilessence (God, I wish I could spell) and shoddy workmanship in products. I would HATE to see this complacense (there I go again) carry over into the publishing industry. As buyers and readers, we can make sure that publishers know that we will not accept cruddy craftsmanship in their products. For once, let's prove that the small book-buying minority really can be elitist about something worthwhile -- the protection of the language and the artists who provide us with so much enjoyment. So not just this time, guys, but every time, cover art aside (*grin*) let's at least demand our money's worth, politely, yet firmly.

Mr. K. (Bishop's Gate) Sun Jun 9 13:30:20 1996
Kudo's to Toonces (and the Wyatt fellow) for sharing their personal space with the e-folk.
A Star Wars arcade game? #Cool#. I've always wanted to own a pinball machine or a video game. Maybe soon I'll have the space....
-JK

keegan Sun Jun 9 12:25:33 1996
Hmmmm, Jason. My "Essential" didn't do that to me. Sorry to hear yours did. My copy of "Edgeworks" hasn't fallen apart yet, but it feels like it might at any minute. Maybe I'm just paranoid 'cause I see my two-year-old eyeing it with a gleam......

Jason Sun Jun 9 11:41:21 1996
THIGHS of Atlas Rick? A little off there I'm sure. Enjoyed the tour, can't help help wondering what Toonces thinks of A Boy and his Dog.
Keegan have to disagree with you about the cheapness of Edgeworks compared to Essential. My copy of Essential lost about five pages within 3 days of purchase. And no I don't treat my books badly. I guess I'm saying I'd rather have a book with typos than a book that's falling apart. As for 'Walking the High Steel' Part of the problem might lie with HE himself. He says in the foreword that High Steel was rewritten, and it's probably during the rewrite that the name change took place. My guess about the typos is that a mix up occured during the editing proccess and the wrong copy got out. Or something like that. HE praised his editors in several places through out the book. Yes I'm defending the book, I'm doing it because people seem to be blaming everybody, but the person or people where the buck should stop. That is the proofreaders. It's the proofreaders job to catch and fix the errors, not the editors who deal with the general content, not the publishers, not the printers. Maybe WW has to fire the proofreader, or maybe have two proofreaders on the same book. Or maybe it was like said before and the wrong copy got out. WW knows there's a problem and if it persists, then some thing more should be said.
That's all for now.
Jason

Sue Luesse Sat Jun 8 22:51:56 1996

Hey Rick - glad you mentioned the 'updates'.. I was hoping it was my eyes again (and not my mind).. Trying to remember if 'used clicks' on site always were such a lovely shade of lavender.. (;P

I like it, I like it. Thank Toonce for us. Good to know *someone* is on *top* of things...

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan Sat Jun 8 22:28:27 1996
Virtual Tour of Webderland rocked! Toonces delivers and with more personality than that stuffy old Socks.

About Shazam: Wasn't there a live action Saturday morning teevee show where Billy Batson did the Shazam thang while some other chick drew down Isis? THAT's how I know the saga, though I am at least somewhat aware that the teevee thing descended from an honest-to-god comic book. Is my generation gap showing?

Rick Wyatt (webmaster@harlanellison.com) Sat Jun 8 22:07:15 1996
Okay, I've just spent ALL FREAKING DAY AND NIGHT completely re-doing the Gallery section (the "Pics" selection at the top and bottom of this page), and DAMNIT SOMEBODY BETTER APPRECIATE IT!

Sorry, I lost it for a second. Anyway, there's about a gozillion new pictures there, and I've organized them into sections by type. There's even a Virtual Tour of Webderland, with pictures of yours truly (amongst other more appetizing subjects). So, like, check it out, okay?

And Shaz - sorry, but you DID miss the boat. the S-H-A-Z was undoubtedly a reference to the old Captain Marvel golden-age comic, featuring Billy Batson as a young boy who transforms into the superhero Captain Marvel by saying "Shazam!". Shazam is the name of the wizard who gave Billy his powers. The old dude lives at the Rock of Eternity. Saying "Shazam" (if you're Billy Batson, his sister Mary, or his friend Freddy (Captain Marvel Junior)) produces a thunderbolt from the old geezer that loads up the boltee with the wisdom of Solomon, the strength of Hercules, the skill of Achilles, the power of Zeus, the thighs of Atlas, and the magic of Merlin. Or something like that, it's been ages since I read the thing.

I've got a new news item to put in, I'll try to get to it tomorrow or Monday. Stay tuned...

Sue Luesse (At the Zoo, no, Mouse House, no, whatever..) Sat Jun 8 19:08:39 1996

Shaz - I'm interested, and I do remember the cartoon you refered to (vaguely - wasn't that Johnny Quest era?).

Keegan - I agree with you. So I plan to buy Edgeworks at the ComicCon, and let them know how 'the market' feels about inferior quality products on the spot - unless the vendor is just that, and not one of the White Wolf publishing empire sycophants.

Back to the WEEKEND!

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Shaz (Apologies...) Sat Jun 8 18:34:20 1996
My apologies for continuing to type "The Mouse Circus" instead of "At The Mouse Circus".

Shaz (remco@cas.et.tudelft.nl & psyco4@jetson.uh.edu) Sat Jun 8 18:17:15 1996
Sue (And Whomever Else It May Concern):
Are you still interested in my brief analysis of "At The Mouse
Circus"? I wouldn't want to bore the comment board with yet another
take on it, though I have now read it 4 times in 2 days, if noone is
really interested. I do have one minor question about it...that part
with Billy Batson (boy in mailslot) with the "S-H-A-Z". Does anyone
remember an old cartoon called "Shazam" where a well dressed lad had
a genie named "Shazam" (whom he conjured by saying the name)? Am I
way off here?
If anyone is interested in yet another trip into "At The Mouse
Circus, let me know.

keegan (the time of the java) Sat Jun 8 09:32:26 1996
Anybody else consider this? If people refuse to buy "Edgeworks" it would send a message about consumer demand for quality. It could also significantly diminish White Wolf's expected profits from the book. This in turn might effect the scheduled release of subsequent works in the Ellison series.

I think it's a good idea to buy this book despite its publication flaws, especially if you don't already own books that contain these HE pieces. The Work itself is superb and should be supported. I will see what the second book looks like before closing the door on the publisher.

"Fool me once; shame on you. Fool me twice; shame on me." I will not buy sight-unseen next time 'round. For now, I'll let it slide.....

Just my opinion, of course.

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonlne.com) Fri Jun 7 16:24:07 1996

Whoooeeeee! Making me think twice about buying Edgeworks..

So Jeff - Howzabout I mosey on over to the White Wolf booth (table?) at the ComicCon, noodgie around 'til I know if Mark the Schmuck and/or Stinky Stewie are present, and inquire as to their obvious lack of professionalism, disdain for the printed word, total disregard for creative people, and complete trashing of book purchasers? I might even add a personal note to expand their awareness... I think it sounds like fun (heh,heh). >;-) I think I'm getting the gist of it from your post, Jeff - but please do clarify as Kris(ten) requested. I hate it when I know I'm right, and get shot down as 'ignorant'..

Charles - better start turning off the lights, locking windows and doors, and pulling heavy curtains shut tight before you curl up with that mouse and do the cord thing.. Our helpful Government is piloting a test project in the New York/Baltimore corridor for user IDs to access the Web..

BTW - there is something going on at http://www.vtw.org/speech with regards to the Telecomunications Bill just passed.. Legal actions challenging it, petitions, yet another spiffy little box to put on your Home Page in support.. Well, we knew Jim Hess would be gone for a bit - but didn't he say he'd be back by now?? Are you being naughty, Jim, and lurking?? Or naughtier, and posting under an alias?? And now WolfMistress is swallowed up in silence as well.. Wait a minute.. That's just a co-incidence - right?.. (8-)~

Awww, heck. I'm getting sappy and romantic thoughts. Losing that paranoid edge. Go read HE cure.....

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan Fri Jun 7 14:37:00 1996
Yeah, Kris! Just how DO those publishers do their thing. There's lots of discussion in the HE newsgroup kvetching about the books poor design. While I don't necessarily care as deeply about the cosmetic details as others seem to, I definitely notice that the book *feels* cheaper, less sturdy or solid somehow, than say, "Essential Ellison". What's the story with book design?

Specifically, what process did WhiteWolf employ to proofread? Is this a typesetting problem, an editorial problem, a technology problem, or what? It's obviously a problem of some sort and I hope White Wolf is honest enough to solve it. They appear willing to do so.

I'm grateful to White Wolf for publishing this stuff. Really, I am and I don't want to dog their vision. But the product itself felt kind of amateur. To me, it's still worth buying, but it seems they could've done a bit better. Then again, whaddo I know?

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Fri Jun 7 07:31:33 1996
Jeff: I wish I knew who those people were -- I get the feeling I should, but I've never heard of them. I'm would love a clarification of what you said (please). I've always wondered about that actual company, never having heard of them before HE got involved with them (I haven't been into RPG's since high school -- been a few years). Perhaps you can help me satisfy my curiousity with your clarification -- I've always wondered exactly what a publishing company was doing if they weren't just ultra-busy editing their books.

Jeff Cisneros (At The Mouse Circus) (jcisneros@ichange.com) Fri Jun 7 02:14:58 1996
Let's pretend for a moment that Mark Rhein*Hagen is someone of major importance. Then he would make sure that typos never grace his product, not to mention keeping loudmouths like Chris MacCubbin in his unprofessional little corner. Let's pretend that the show "Kindred: The Embraced" is an overwhelming success (which it is not). Let us pretend that the producer of said show is NOT running around claiming HE was the creator of the entire WW style genre. With all of these factors and more pressing on Mr. Rhein*Hagen, I have little doubt he has no time to make sure that good editing is done. Besides, as a pro in the RPG writing biz, I will cheerfully inform all of my good friends here at Ellison Webderland what a complete and utter SCHMUCK that Mark is. In White Wolf magazine, this Chris MacCubbin character essentially slammed HE for everything from world hunger to the Ebola virus epidemic. Truly tasteless considering his boss had just signed Harlan for his backlist. Bright, eh? I expect a lot worse than typos out of White Wolf. Just in cause folks think this is sour grapes, bear in mind that I endorse their product line. I merely will point out that almost every freelancer in the RPG publishing business has warned Mark and his assistant Stewart Wieck about maintaining editorial control (and administering a dose of common sense to his staff). I guess my rant is over..I now return you to the pleasant task of discussing Harlan's works.

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Thu Jun 6 17:49:09 1996
Jason: Like I said before about the typos...White Wolf does not seem to be too concerned about the accuracy of anything they put their name on -- just a hunch, though. *giggle*

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonline.com) Thu Jun 6 16:58:31 1996

Uummmm - Jason - how 'bout tossing out a few instructive http's, or titles, to help the Computer Challenged figure out how to get a text out of Word for Windows (my snail mail print-outs are near perfect thanks to Spell/GrammarCheck) and into e-mail (or the Comments Window)... What you see is what you get, from me. No helpful programs to clean up my act for me.. Just hanging out here, warts and all..

I'm not sure if that counts as a 'flame', but it's the best I can manage in my endless series of 'first drafts' (or should that be 'dafts'??). I had no idea the occasional 'oopsy' in a post was different in nature that the 'oopsies' easily overlooked in Edgeworks.. Gosh, guess there are benefits to being a Somebody..

I think I'll go play with my mental blocks now..

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan Thu Jun 6 14:47:51 1996
Jason- I think "3 Faces of Fear" examines how a film producer can best serve Art when "reduced" to making horror flicks for a living. Harlan seems basically to say that there's a high road and there's a low road. To take the high road requires a deep understanding of the nature of Fear.

In "The Thick Red Moment", Harlan castigates the *audiences* who cheer, even laugh, when the low road of gratuitous violence and slow-motion gore is the mode travelled by the producers. Harlan goes on to describe why movies of this sort are the basest examples of action on celluloid, hardly approaching Art, and certainly in no way intellectually nourishing. His focus, however, remains firmly fixed on audiences who exhibit their sickness by even paying for that kitsch in the first place.

Thoughts?

Jason (rechecking my perscription) Wed Jun 5 23:46:36 1996
That should read ...along with City, WHICH according to Rick
I can GET a copy for 5˘ and ... exchange rate or what, but whatever it is, I can't afford it.
gee Hope no-one thinks that my ommitted words have some devoius ulterior motive against my fellow posters. (yes that comment was uncalled for, I get a little mean, flame me.)

Jason (Always on the Cutting Edge(not exactly a title, but who cares)) Wed Jun 5 23:34:51 1996
Thanks Rick, D.T. I was wondering about Angry Candy. Combine Edgeworks with The Essential, and you probably get everything that isn't still in print. (Everything that HE would have you read.) By the way White wolf already lists Edgeworks vol II to order along with City, according to Rick is coming out in the fall so I'm guessing about that long until vol II. Kris I hope you give White Wolf another chance for something that was obviously a mistake.
Have a bit of a moral dilemma. My local library has Mefisto in Onyx on cd as part of their Electronic copies of Omni, I can a copy for 5˘ a page (the paper cost) obviously cheaper than the $30 Mefisto in Onyx novella, I'm not sure if that's because of the exchange rate or what, but either way I can't afford it. But getting a copy the other way feels a little like stealing.
Anakin I've tried to get through a couple of time earlier on, but no luck I'll try again. BTW I'm still waiting for Fairchild and Lynch to get together. (Not Alex Fairchild, get your mind out of the gutter.) p.s. Have you heard about DV8 the GEN13 spinoff?

Back to the 3 faces of fear. (Back? When were you on 3 faces to begin with?) {Shut up you'll ruin everything they don't know about you} I liked it, anyone know what the deal is with the Thick Red Moment and 3 Faces, more detail when I'm awake.

I'll be back when they let me have access to a computer again. (I'll be a good boy, I promise!)
Concerned yet?
Jason

keegan ((gotta get) an edge in my groove) Wed Jun 5 21:49:41 1996
This is the HE quote I'm going to throw on the wall of the music room at school tomorrow: "As with all work that either approaches or becomes Art, there is a specific and enormous demand on the observer, *by* the very nature and dimensions of the work *itself*, to commit; to participate; to bring something very individual and personal to the *work*, to expand it, in effect. To add to it. To color it and intensify it, to personalize it, if you will."

The kids won't have a blinking clue what all that means, but it'll keep me sane and you never know, it might catch the eye of one of the brighter ones.

It sums up many of my feelings about music even though the quote appears in "3 Faces of Fear", an essay about films of fear. I personally believe that Art and Fear often walk hand in hand, and that one of Art's primary functions is to manage fear by expressing it or sublimating it. I loved this essay which made me consider my own "Room 101's". Peeked inside....and, oh my! Anyone care to comment about their reactions to "3 Faces of Fear"?

Rick Wyatt Wed Jun 5 20:11:16 1996
Oops. Looks like someone else was just as busy typing as me...

And yes, I know that ought to be "incidence" down there. Bite me.

Rick Wyatt (webmaster@harlanellison.com) Wed Jun 5 20:09:30 1996
I just archived the board and repaired the broken comments file. Sorry for the problems, they are all server-based and out of my control. The archival should lower the incident of failed comments, and try again if you get an error.

To answer the questions about the White Wolf publications, here is a list of the titles which were not included in the previous list. I think you will see it brings the total up to the promised 31:
AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS
WEB OF THE CITY
THE SOUND OF A SCYTHE
THE DEADLY STREETS
STALKING THE NIGHTMARE
PARTNERS IN WONDER
THE STARLOST: Phoenix Without Ashes (with Edward Bryant)
THE OTHER GLASS TEAT
HARLAN ELLISON'S WATCHING
HARLAN ELLISON'S MOVIE
THE HARLAN ELLISON HORNBOOK
MEDEA: HARLAN'S WORLD

I also can hardly agree that this is not a representative or complete collection of Ellison's work. As near as I can figure, it encompasses every last one of Ellison's major short story and essay collections, as well as every other major original publication he has been involved with.

In fact, some of the volumes, such as _ROUGH BEASTS_ and _HARLAN ELLISON'S MOVIE_, are very hard to come by. There are other short story collections and essay sets, but these mostly contain reprints of stories and essays found within the 31 titles being reprinted. It appears that HE as well is updating the collections with stories not included elsewhere, as he did in the _OVER THE EDGE_ volume.

D.T. Shindler (Same as before) Wed Jun 5 20:05:25 1996
Damn! Missed one title from that list: The Other Glass Teat. That's definitely all of them for now.

D.T. Shindler (Ain't Got One) Wed Jun 5 20:00:35 1996
Here's a comprehensive list of all titles listed (at the moment) for inclusion in the Edgeworks series. The information comes directly from White Wolf (my info seems to be different than Kris' 'cause the list I got was longer and didn't include Angry Candy, which is still published by Plume), and also from (drum roll, here) THE HARLAN ELLISON RECORDING COLLECTION newsletter. If you really want inside info into Harlan Ellison's pbulishing schedules, etc., you really ought to subscribe (I believe info for that can be found on one of the selections of this fine WEB page)! The preceeding was an unpaid advertisement. Now, the list: Gentleman junkie; Spider Kiss; Shatterday; An Edge In my Voice; Dangerous Visions; Again, Dangerous Visions; Web of the City; The Sound of a Scythe; The Deadly Streets; Children of the Streets; Ellison Wonderland; Paingod; I have no Mouth & I Must Scream; From the Land of Fear; The BEast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World; Over the Edge;No Doors, No Windows; Strange Wine; Stalking the Nightmare; Partners in Wonder; The Starlost:Phoenix Without Ashes; Memos From Purgatory; The Glass Teat; Harlan Ellison's Watching; Rough Beasts; Harlan Ellison's Movie; The Harlan Ellison Hornbook; Medea: Harlan's World; Approaching Oblivion; Love Aint Nothing But Sex Misspelled. That's it. The entire list (which, according to an Ellison interview) is subject to change, by growing longer (if other titles become "available" after current contracts are spent). It was also mentioned that the Dangerous Visions anthologies (and perhaps others)will be published by themselves, as one volume each, because of their size. Okay. I've done my duty. Don't say I've never done anything for you guys. Now get out you checkbooks and subscribe to the HERC newsletter (and for pete's sake buy a recording or two, cause they're dynamite!). Do so, now. 'Cause next time (to borrow from the patron saint), I stop being polite!

Mara Skywalker (Anakin O'Hara's Brain) Wed Jun 5 19:34:28 1996
Just stopped over to say hi! Gotta go, I have read the latest issue of
GEN13! I really do miss you guys, lets talk one of these days, visit Mara's Cafe,
so to show you how nice I am. M-THUR, 7-8,8:30pm, F+Sat,3-4,4:30pm, eastern time,
see you!

Sue Luesse (Over The Edge and into the Works) Wed Jun 5 13:54:50 1996

Hey all. Took a peek at the HE biblio in the front of Essential Ellison, and quit counting titles when I hit 25.

Looks like I may have to break down and BUY Edgeworks, just so I know what the heck you guys are talking about. Hope you all feel special - I don't do this sort of thing for just anybody..

Sue Luesse (Really starting to think They are out to get me) Wed Jun 5 13:54:36 1996

O.K. A tag line here, an exit line there.. No big loss.. But 3 paragraphs? Did you put a governor on the Comment Window?? That recognizes me???

Try High - Fly Stright - Drive Safe

(she says, sweating profusely, looking around with paranoid intensity)

Sue Luesse (Over The Edge and into the Works) Wed Jun 5 13:48:12 1996

Hey all. Took a peek at the HE biblio in the front of Essential Ellison, and quit counting titles when I hit 25.

Looks like I may have to break down and BUY Edgeworks, just so I know what the heck you guys are talking about. Hope you all feel special - I don't do this sort of thing for just anybody..

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Wed Jun 5 06:11:23 1996
The list looked a little short to me, too, but I assure you, if White Wolf intends to release more titles than that, they are not telling anyone. The poster is kinda arty -- to match the style of the first cover, only in brown and gold, not blues -- and it at least insinuates that this IS the series, not just part of it. However, if they left any off, I'm sure they'll apologize for the gigantic typo.

Jason (The three e-mail addresses of fear) Tue Jun 4 22:19:13 1996
To the newcomers welcome. Kris are you sure that's all of them? You've listed 20 titles and White Wolf has said they were reprinting 31 of HE's books, not to mention there is at least 20 volumes, and with Over the Edge and An Edge in my Voice in one volume, that leaves 18 books to fill 19 volumes, perhaps some of the rare ones weren't listed. By the way what HE books are considered rare? If it's books like Doomsman you probably won't see them reprinted.
Rick how about you, do you know, or can you get a hold of the Edgeworks contents?
Jason

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Tue Jun 4 16:58:13 1996
Shaz: I have no release dates and no idea what the combinations will be in Edgeworks. BUT through the miracles of wondrous connections in the book-selling business (ah, yes, you too can be a collector and spend so much money on old books that the people selling them to you feel very, very sorry for you), I have obtained my very own copy of the publicity poster from White Wolf for the series. Chances are good that although White Wolf and I have parted ideologies, I won't part with the poster. However, I will share with you the list of titles...
Paingod
Love Ain't Nothing But Sex Misspelled
The Beast That Shouted Love At the Heart of The World
An Edge In My Voice
Over The Edge
Gentleman Junkie
Approaching Oblivion
I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream
Strange Wine
The Glass Teat
Children Of The Streets
Dangerous Visions
Ellison Wonderland
Angry Candy
Shatterday
Spider Kiss
From The Land of Fear
Memos From Purgatory
No Doors, No Windows
Rough Beasts
Not to offer up my own complaints, knowing as I do that they are unpopular, but just as a word from a collector, almost none of that stuff is that rare. But that is the official list, from the official White Wolf publicity stuff. I think somewhere on this page there was an estimate given of what kind of time would pass between releases, but I don't remember what it was.

Shaz (Tiptoeing through the tulips in Holland) Tue Jun 4 10:41:05 1996
Sue:
Yes, I want to be called Shaz (a nickname for Sharon which I picked up a few years ago during my "British Adventure"). I'll give the Mouse Circus another read, though the last time I even started considering analyzing it I was struck with a migraine. My earliest reaction to "At the Mouse Circus" was that I would have an easier time understanding it if I had actually taken hallucinogens while I was in college. Oh well, was just a thought. Stay tuned--she might just find her way through that schizophrenic tale yet!

Sue Luesse (Oh, shut up - it's a short PS) Tue Jun 4 10:02:06 1996

Rick - Lost the last three lines this time. No loss from my post - but what am I missing from everyone else?!?

There was supposed to be a new paragraph beginning with Darren.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonline.com) Tue Jun 4 09:51:12 1996

Hi there, Shaz, Darren, and Charles.. You guys must have the magic touch to draw Rick away from the exotic pleasures of Real Life into a post! I think I'm jealous.. ;-)

Shaz and Charles (is that what you want to be called?) - (This one's for you, Jason) - Would you care to comment on At The Mouse Circus? I really liked the insights you gave on Driving the Spikes, and the justice issue. Darren - A Grand idea. I didn't even know Roger Zelazny was deceased until I got 'plugged' into the Net a month or so ago. Left me with a little ache, and no outlet. News to me, but old and of little interest everywhere else, leading people to respond "DUH" when I expressed my dismay. I crawled into bed, under the covers, and did not come out until I had re-read Lords of Light, and Creatures of Light And Darkeness. I'm not sure how one goes about such a task. Lots of e-mail to whom? I'm willing to try. Can anyone point this loose cannon in the right direction?

I've decided to get with the whole pc language thing and describe my personal vice (perhaps a developing addiction) as PNS (post Newbie Syndrome). Who knows, even in times of budget cut, downsizing frenzy, there may still be a golden trough grant in it..

Sorry Kris(ten), still no Strange Wine found. That is one of the problems with being nearsighted and not being able to wear contacts - I take off the glasses, put them down, can't find them without them on to see them, continue my 'task' without them, and generate Great Quests when what I thought was a thorough job turns out to be thoroughtly screwed up.. It's not with the fiction books. I'm going to try the stack of cookbooks next..

Shaz (remco@cas.et.tudelft.nl) Tue Jun 4 09:36:33 1996
Has anyone received the complete list of titles and release dates for White Wolf's new Ellison collection? I emailed an inquiry and have received no response.

Charles Morgan (cem@flex.net) Tue Jun 4 02:24:29 1996
Wonderful to be here, and equally so to here so many bright fans. New here and decided to jump in to the largest discussion, i.e. justice. Most are correct, there is none to be found in the homes of Mr. John Q. Public, and as HE has shown in many stories one has to make their own justice (altho' it would be nice if thier was some cosmic comptroller making the Dahmers and Hitlers make acounts balance in the hereafter) unfortunately that does us no good in the here and now who wish for that sharp stick in the ear for the Limbaughs out there. HE is human, and when we rage we wish all kinds of nastiness on the supposed villian (forced to watch 108 hours of Married with Children is a good start) but most of the time we rage in silence not wishing to be the bad guy, HE has always seemed to avoid that. He simply did what comes naturally (I'm sure he'd love a time that he didn't have to be both Paladin and Truth-sayer). I don't condone the actual act, but once again we take what justice and sense of fairness we can.

Finished reading Edgeworks, loved it again (wish the schmuck I lent my original copy of Over The Edge to years ago hadn't disapeared in a cloud of smoke and a hearty up yours---maybe HE can give me the name of that hitman...hmm), so much so I bought two more copies to send to friends. Cant wait for the rest, and will happily plunk down my scheckles for them. Well, guess I spoke enough, better close before the rest of you decide the new guy types wayyy to much and decide to call the WEB patrol on me to perhaps talk to me about finding my mouse cord in bed with me. >:>

Rick Wyatt (webmaster@harlanellison.com) Mon Jun 3 21:48:39 1996
Couldn't agree more about Zelazny. I've read his first set of "Amber" novels three times, and I love the rest of his work, especially a little book with Saberhagen called _Coils_.

Here is some information sent to me via e-mail roundabout from the Dangerous Visions bookstore:

1. Children of the Streets and Sound of a Sythe have never been published. Harlan liked the titles and listed them in all his books, but that's it :)
2. The Fantasies of Harlan Ellison was a hardcover only from Gregg Press. ($$) It came out in 1979 and contains Paingod and I Have No Mouth...
3. The Book of Ellison was published by Andy Porter's Algol Press without Harlan's Permission. It had 1800 trade pbs and 200 hardcovers. As a result, both states are quite expensive.
4. A Touch of Infinity is half of an Ace Double. The other side (also by Harlan) is A Man with Nine Lives. These run about $12 - $30 depending on condition and are terrible, terrible sci-fi.
5. Time of the Eye is a British collection of stories that appeared in US editions.
6. The Illustrated Harlan Ellison had a simultaneous hardcover/trade pb printing from Baronet back in the late 70's. Ace put out an edited version in a regular size paperback later on. Oh yeah, it's also in black and white. (yuk)

Darren Mon Jun 3 13:43:27 1996
Just a thought. About a year ago, the world lost someone very special. His name was Roger Zelazny, and he was one hell of a writer. Besides writing Amber novels, he was a real craftsman with a short story. "For a breath I tarry", "Rose for Ecclesiasties", and many others do him credit. His novel "Lord of Light" actually brought him a Hugo (I may or may not be correct on the award). I miss his writing, as I think many readers do, but I also miss the recognition that he never really received for his contributiuons to the genre. SFWA (the Sci Fi Writers of America) propose an award / title that honor certain authors with that shows how much that author has brought to the arena of science fiction and fantasy. It is called the Grand Master. Some authors have recieved that title, Andre Norton for one, and Asimov for another. But it is not distributed regularly and I think it would make a difference if it would be. I know Rogers dead, but there are other authors like Philip Jose Farmer that have been producing the kind of science fiction that changes the way we think for ages now, and still no Grand Master. I think Roger deserves the respect, even posthumously, of being called a Grand Master. I hope that someday, we'll see that. If anyone knows how we can get SFWA will listen, please leave a note here.
Thanks.

Sue Luesse (Geez!) Sun Jun 2 13:15:13 1996

Hey, thanks for all the e-mail. I had no idea it was that big a deal, and still think it really wasn't. Not like I was the only person in creation with the ability to do it. I just happened to be the first angry schmoe on the scene.

To all - The extent of my injuries is some soreness, and unsightly bruising on my middle back and upper arms. I'm diabetic, so those bruises are real beauts to look at - but not serious. I was wearing full protective gear for riding the bike at the time of the incident. Had on a full face shielded helmet, padded jacket, gloves, and chaps, and shin high re-inforced boots. They aren't looking so hot, but they sure do a good job protecting from injury (from any source).

Having a wondeful weekend. And now I will get back to it.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Sue Luesse (Chilling with the KKK on the County Courthouse Steps) Sat Jun 1 10:46:55 1996

Yup. That's a for real thing. The KKK had a rally on the County Courthouse steps during the Annual MelonFest, white robes and all. I had the indecency to show up and chat (aren't all bikers low class, bigotted scum? - welcomed with open arms..). Stayed long enough to identify (by voice, and peeking through the large sagging eyeholes in hoods} who was 'in there', and call them LOUDLY by name as we spoke. Funny how 'right' it is - until everyone knows who you are... I asked LOUDLY how come all those RICH folks were in white sheets instead of the Designer sheets their High Station merits. Crowd laughed. KKK's got ticked off. Pushy-shovey ensued. Even sympathizers didn't like a White Woman getting pushed around. Local Gendarmes broke it up. I now have several court dates on my calendar (Assault & Battery charges against several KKK's), an interesting addition to my medical history (I wondered if the police pix would be included), and some very sore and bruised bits to nurse for a while.
And it only took from 8am to 10:30am.. Was home a little before 11. Not bad for a few hours work. I doubt it will even make the local newspapers (since the Executive Editor was one of the people I identified, and he wasn't charged with anything).
That's The Way It Is. State Highway Commission never assigns minorities to our county for road work (had a shooting incident a few years back, that never made the papers either), but there aren't any racists here. Last Fall Jimmy, the last Negroe (his description of choice) in our town of the twenty families that have been here since beore statehood, almost burned to death when a cross on the lawn wasn't enough, and they set fire to his house with him in it at 2 am. Jimmy was 83, and refused to leave because four generations of his family were buried here (including his wife). That wasn't in the news either.
I can't change The Way It Is (God knows, I would if I could). I can visit Jimmy regularly (in the extended care facility, still undergoing rehab and reconstructive surgeries, and planning to come back to his home - THAT guy has guts), and keep up the graves of his family for him. And tell him there are three of the bigots going to have a tough time explaining to their employers (Glass House Ford, Univ. of Mich., and the Ann Arbor News) why they couldn't show up for work Monday, and may not be in to work for 5-7 years with time off for 'good behaviour'.

Is it Justice? Is it Revenge? It is ABSOLUTELY channelled anger. Analyzing, speculating, theorizing, trying to UNDERSTAND what the hell is going on.. all well and good. But real life is never that simple. I offer the incident for thought. I feel no regret, or guilt. I feel satisfaction. Why did I do it? Because it needed to be done.

Sore, and satisfied, I will kick back for the rest of the weekend. Make plans for Chi-ComicCon, and enjoy the warm feelings of anticipation. The 'incident' is over. One small event in much larger life. And life goes on.

BTW - my hubby came up with a few 'names' for "post-newbie-syndrome" (PNS).. PuterPhreak, and Web-stir (or Webster).. I like that last one. It brings to mind images of little furry things in cages running like crazy in place to turn a large wheel.. Kind of how I feel sometimes, clicking along like crazy through a spinning Cyberspace of words while parked in the study. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress (Cavorting with Cows on the Concourse....) Fri May 31 15:40:40 1996
'Ello, All! Yup, the above is for really, partly. "Cows on the Concourse" is an annual event in Madison, capitol of Cow & Cheese country. The Concourse is the capitol lawns and surrounding fountains. They do it every year and give away milk and boxes of cereal to the kids....Don't look at me like that! I just live here, alright? They were doing it when I got here....

Anyway, I think I still have an e-mail problem as given forth in The Esoteric Canon of Most Holy Computers and Their Sacred Networks (nevermind peripherals; they're not that important). Thanks to various Whiz-Bangs in IS, part of my network went North this morning! When they tried to route part of the Canadian section of our WAN through another Hub, it lost some of the IP addresses needed to maintain Internet connections, and dragged part of us with it!!

I'm still trying to figure out how that happened, other than the fact that we all connect to the main mail-server cluster in Glenview (Illinois). Pieces of various Canadian groups are still in limbo somewhere. They may or may be connected to the proper hubs. Northfield, Ill., where several of the Canadian offices come together before being sent on, had some sort of wack-out that messed everything up for about an hour. And I have *chosen* to work with this stuff to make a living. Insanity reigns....!

Jason - Are you Canadians doing something fishy to our WAN? (just teasing)! ;~) Actually, the Canadian section runs more flawlessly than the Stateside part more often than not. What does this tell us?????

Anyway, will do the best I can. For what it's worth, I miss Jim Hess' comments around here. Hope he comes back soon.

If I don't get back to you today, have a great weekend!

keegan (dreaming in Ithaca) Fri May 31 13:59:17 1996
Nothing to do with HE. Just wanted to say thanks for the civil conversation about "Driving in the Spikes". I enjoyed weighing out everyone's arguments and opinions in my head. I certainly have a more expanded view of the piece now. Thank you.

Shaz, man--welcome aboard (and if you're female, I hope ya don't take offense. I call everyone "man". Jazz musician thing.) Anyway, welcome. Hope ya hook up with all the HE you need. This page and its supporters will help, I'm sure.

WM- I can't think of a clever name for what Sue is, now that she's no longer a newbie. All I could come up with was "cyberchick" and somehow that just ain't HIP enough. Too close to "cipher". Anybody else give it a thought? The only other thing that came to mind was "once you're not a newbie, you're a geek" but we'd all take umbrage at that, hmmm? I love a person who's hard to label! :)

Rick-been a long time, man. Miss ya. Thanks for the free reign (read "trust"). Hope all's well.

Sue Again Fri May 31 13:19:11 1996

Lost the last two lines of my post, Rick.. No real loss I guess.

Also - please read (so) between the comma after ..done) and it.

Off to simple pleasures.. Let the heavy stuff filter through and settle.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Sue Luesse (Down to a GlowWorm and a Comic under the covers ) Fri May 31 13:14:29 1996

Nice to see you Shaz. I appreciate the perspective. I'm pretty sure I shot my wad on Spikes, and have nothing new to add (and I trust no one on the Board requires endless repetition, so I'm done), it is nice to have someone else keep the ball rolling.

Rick - Hope you don't mind the extra-Harlanesque use of the board. I couldn't think of any other way to let WM know there is a problem, since apparently her out-going is fine. I'm still smarting from my own computer crash, and subsequent loss of e-mail insight (Is this a HE kinda 'barge on through' thing I've done?). If it will 'even up' the score, I'll send a long, grovelling, self-deprecatory e-mail.

Sue Luesse (Shhh.. I'm not really here..) Thu May 30 20:09:28 1996

WM - Your Postmaster keeps sending back your e-mail - says s/he doesn't recognize you. What is he using? And how do I e-mail you?

Shaz - check out the Ellison News (click on it above) and scroll forever ago back to 1/4/96. City info is there.

Shaz (remco@cas.et.tudelft.nl) Thu May 30 18:02:11 1996
By the way, has there been any news on when the trade edition of
City on the Edge of Forever will be out? I am DYING to get my hands
on that!

Shaz (remco@cas.et.tudelft.nl) Thu May 30 17:55:07 1996
First, let me briefly introduce myself since I am new to the comment board.
I am a fairly new Ellison enthusiast, being introduced to his work by my best friend (you may have seen a post on here by him--he's working on the Mindfields multimedia ballet with Ellison's blessing).
A native of Texas (don't worry--I promise not to say "y'all" and "howdy" unless under physical torture), I now reside in Holland.
And if you thought it was hard to get an Ellison book where you are, try getting one here!
I am in my mid-twenties and have a degree in psychology.
Now, to the discussion at hand. I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed "Driving in the Spikes".
Some of you have said that exacting revenge causes more psychological harm to the wronged party than is acceptable.
Having formerly been possessed by anger and a need for revenge, I think that Ellison's actions were warranted from his point of view.
And this is the important part: from his point of view. Since noone was really hurt (the hitman didn't lay hands on the comptroller nor cause his old ticker to stop), the thing we have to focus on is the state of mental turmoil of HE (the injured party).
The whole point of this essay was not to claim that revenge at any cost is correct; rather, it was written to expose a socially unacceptable way of dealing with anger resulting from being mistreated.
Within set limits, revenge can ease one's torment. I agree that during the exacting of the revenge it can torture one even more (esp. if it doesn't seem to be working) but once the process is finished and you have accomplished your goal, you do get some emotional relief.
Now some may say that you end up feeling worse about yourself afterwards, but I think that is a highly subjective statement.
I can personally say that I have acted on feelings of anger and revenge and in retrospect I think no less of myself for my actions.
People make mistakes, emotions can overwhelm you and cause you to think in ways that otherwise you would consider unhealthy, and taking action to preserve your sanity is justifiable.
I am not going to get into an argument about justice here because from what I have seen (esp. in the courts of the good old USA), justice is dead.
Whether or not getting revenge is destructive to yourself depends on two things: how far did you go to get revenge (as HE said, you don't cut off a hand for shoplifting) and are you the kind of person that QUICKLY and EASILY blames yourself.
Yes, HE is still angry. I think he will be for some time, for isn't that part of his talent. HE creatively channels his anger into his writing, and that's a good thing.
I don't think we'd have it any other way.

WolfMistress (rwhiteanderson@kraft.com) Thu May 30 15:38:24 1996
Sue - You were a "newbie". I'm not sure what seasoned veterans call themselves. For those of us who do most of our Net surfing in the World Wide Web, I have seen "Web Slinger" used, with apologies to Spiderman since that is one of his appellations. "Web Runner" (a la Blade Runner); Web Wanderer -- take your pick, I think. If anyone knows of any other nicknames or identifiers other than 'Nethead' (really), feel free to join in Sue's "Naming Ceremony". Sorry, Friend. Couldn't resist!!! ;-)

WolfMistress (Life is like a box of Angry Candy....) Thu May 30 13:33:18 1996
I must say that this has been one of the most stimulating discussions I've had the pleasure to be a part of since grad school!

The Pros & Cons of Justice vs Revenge brings up many valid points; the case can be solidly made that HE was *both* right and wrong! Aren't we all, at one time or another? It simply proves HE is as Human as the rest ofus. But let's put the moral issues aside for a moment. I started reading Angry Candy *after* reading Driving In The Spikes. Perhaps I made an association because I'm so accustomed to the feeling myself - the Intro to Angry Candy seemed to mesh with kindred whispers in Driving In The Spikes. Then I began to think about what I know of HE from what I've read, heard or seen.

It might be an understatement to say that HE is angry; even perpetually so. He tells us as much in the Angry Candy Intro. It shows brilliantly in "Spikes" and in the story preceeding it in Essential Ellison. His anger & hurt is palpable in "Spikes" as he speaks of what has been done to his puppy, and the anguish that lasted until he buried the rug beater. Or did it? I personally think the anger remained; still *remains*. Has been built upon slowly and steadily by all that has crossed HE's path since then. It brought to mind many things I have read in the past concerning the emotion, but what fit better than most were lines from 2 totally different media types: the movie, Batman Forever and a Star Trek:The Next Generation episode.

In the ST:TNG episode, Capt. Picard was explaining how a highly-decorated, 100% Loyal & True officer could have gone so crazy as to attack Cardassian ships when the war was over. He said to the effect that a person can live with anger for so long that eventually, that person forgets how to feel any other way. It becomes comfortable, natural in an 'unnatural way. The other example is when Batman (Val Kilmer) is telling Robin (Chris O'Connell(?)) how hopeless his desire for revenge against Two-Face is for being the cause of his (Robin's) parent's & brother's deaths.

"So what then?" What do you do after it's all over?" And the young man had no ready answer. Batman goes on to say generally the same thing Picard said, only about revenge: you can put so much time and energy into seeking it that eventually, you have nothing left for anything else. And once you have succeeded, you realize 'seeking vengeance' is *all* you know! So you keep doing it. In Batman's case, it was for the public as a whole; for the Captain in the ST:TNG episode, it was because he had lost his wife and children to a Cardassian attack *during* the war. The war ended; he didn't.

Personally being acquainted with perpetual anger down to the molecular level, in a way -- I think a lot of HE is devoted to maintaining what began as his anger toward the old lady for the death of his puppy. That he has mellowed a bit in later years has more to do with Susan's influence, I expect, than any active 'downsizing' on HE's part. And not all anger and its kindred need for revenge is bad, i.e. Batman. Bruce Wayne does good for the people of Gotham by keeping the criminal element on a short leash. Good for them, but not so good for Mr. Wayne on deep, inner levels. I think is fair to say the same about HE.

He knows what he was doing was "over the top"; he freely admits it. But he didn't stop, did he? Yes, we have established that however unfair HE's contract clause demands were, they were agreed to by the publisher, who then proceeded to violate them. Fine.

What I'm saying is that HE's motivation wasn't so much what the publisher did, as it was about what had happened to his puppy or whatever the very first thing that got HE angry was. It is the *same* anger. And he has lived with it for so long, it feels natural to him. It is even expected of him, now, since his reputation precedes him all over the world. He seems to be more aware of it now than in years past. Acknowledging it is half the battle. But some habits are hard to shake, especially if they have been a part of your being for nearly as long as you can remember. Take it from one who knows: it's not the best way to spend one's nights.

Sue Luesse (Stepping Gingerly through the Mind Fields (jaluesse@htonline.com)) Thu May 30 11:10:33 1996

Many thanks to Jason, Leigh Ann, Keegan, Kris(ten), Wolfmistress, and all who have tagged in on the "Justice" issue.

You are right, Jason, there is Tremendous Confusion regarding 'Justice'. Has been forever, it seems. Justice is an ideal, a concept of theological origons, with moral implications. It has been used to validate darn near everything - Islamic Law, the Hindu Caste System, Monarchies, Democracies, and more than could be listed in a lifetime. Rouseau defined it his way. Voltaire and David Hume defined it their way (and none of them agreed). Certainly an issue with no absolute conclusions, even from the greatest minds put to it.

The reason I don't like the essay, is that it promotes more confusion. Revenge is not Justice. But Justice is at the root of the conflict, and only revenge is discussed. I vastly prefer The Man Who Was Heavily Into Revenge as a treatment of the topic. The essay presents HE as victim.. But, hey, he inntiated the whole thing when he 'insisted' and fought to have his opinion given the weight of legality by inserting the darn clause in the first place. I am a supporter of 'speaking out', and standing your ground. I am also a supporter of accepting the consequences of your actions. HE was advised (by those 'on his side') from the get-go that he was being unreasonable, that the clause would not hold up in court of law (can't legally infringe on the rights of others to have THEIR opinion), and forced the issue anyway. He did not go after the person who authorized the infraction (the one who 'did it'), but after a man who with the authority to give HE what he wanted. HE grudgingly admits the CEO hung tough (with his own principles). HE was aware of 'non-combatant casualties', since he describes their pleas for surcease. And in the end, I have to question if the CEO 'deserved' to be abused for his 'arrogant' attitude. He was willing to concede when the costs began outweighing the principle.

So HE is human. Emotions got the better of him. Not every word written must be blinding truth. He has written much better in other works on the issue. Let's discuss some of them.

I would like to add one last thing. Disagreement need not be conflict. This Justice discussion is ample proof of that. I have my own take on Justice. But that is only one small slice of a very large truth, which no one has been able to define in total. Through this discussion, many valid insights have been added to my small personal collection. Transcendance as an ingredient of Justice. Validating whether Justice was served through personal concscience. Injustice is much more readily perceived and agreed upon than Justice (odd, isn't it? You'd think knowing what violates would clarify what it is). And much more of fine nuance. I thank you all for sharing, again (it deserves two mentions).

BTW - I entered this Board as a brandie-new computer-illiterate boob. How much can change in a month or two! Cyberspace is certainly not a vacuum. A great new possibility I am enjoying exploring. Is there some funny, derogatory term (like Dead-Heads for Grateful Dead fans) that applies to computer affectionados? I'd appreciate knowing what I am becoming..

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Jason (Dodging the warm vomit) Wed May 29 17:42:44 1996
Of course not the justice we get is OJ looking for the real killers on golf courses. I think we've all made another mix-up, we've confused Justice with Law. The latter is reality, the former's an ideal and like most ideals it doesn't exist in reality. Law has a threefold purpose, to punish, to deter and to protect. Punishment is a part of law, as to whether it's a part of justice depends on how one defines Justice.
It's not about differences of opinions it's about breaking a contract. The publishers broke the contract when they reprinted the book and put ads inside. So Ellison wanted the rights to his book back. A lawsuit was not viable as said by his attorney, so HE took revenge. Opinion has nothing to do with it. HE's rules for revenge are very specific about avoiding escalation, which is of course don't fight with little boys who dogs have ben gassed. What is escalating unlimited revenge is a case of two people/groups who hate each other engaged in one-upmanship.
I still believe the hitman was justified, because it was not a case of differing opinions, it was a case of the comptroller messing with HE's child. HE did whatever he thought was necessary. Before I get the ends don't justify the means. From Senryaku the 36 strategies. Ask a question of ethics before committing to a struggle. Once committed, you must employ whatever menas are necessary. This is strategy not villany."
HE ethics were broad enough to include the Hitman, it was his strategy and it worked. The means were justified, not by the end, but before the begining.
Of course Mother Theresa isn't paving her way to Hell. Good intentions on their own, are just that, good intentions. What road they pave depends on what actions these intentions cause. That's the point I was tring to make about that phrase.
And finally, for those of you who don't feel right about exacting revenge, it's because you don't live in perpetual fire.
On another note I just got Edgeworks, and the typos don't bother me, in fact I'm not picking up 95% of them when I read the the book. My mind seems to correct the typos subconciously (sp?) so all in all I'm happy about the book. Anyone know what's in the next Volume?
That's it for now
Jason

Leigh Anne (Actually, I am in Kansas, Toto) Wed May 29 16:50:58 1996
What ever happened to that old adage "Living Well is the Best Revenge?" One reason I love HE is the fact that he does things in real life that I would never dream of doing. It's fun living vicariously through him in his non-fiction stories. As for using his tactics myself? Well, I've tried but either failed miserably or felt like crap if it did work. I have found that revenge, at least for me, isn't something that can be sought. Karma, or whatever you want to call it, has a way of evening the playing field, even if it takes a while. Is that justice? Somehow I think justice is more of a legal concept than a moral one. Justice is what humans decide for other humans as a group. Revenge is more personal, at least that what I think. And mixing them up can really cause problems if you think about it.

keegan (vamping on the Song the Zombie Sang) Wed May 29 15:22:43 1996
Hey all. Been thinking about this revenge/justice thang and all that pops into my mind with regularity is the phrase from HE's Hanukkah story "Go Toward the Light". That phrase is, "It seemed like a good idea at the time".

Sue is absolutely correct that rights overlap and that compromise must be sought. Sometimes it's difficult to know what concessions to make. Sometimes one just gets fed up with always being the one to make those concessions. All I know is this (and I told Sue, but now I'm coming forward for everyone to see): my few feeble attempts at getting even-exacting revenge- have resulted in less than positive feelings about myself. It's that sinking to so-and-so's level thing. Revenge seems to rarely have anything transcendant about it. Instead, it plays right into the situation--mayhem for mayhem. But "it seemed like a good idea at the time".......

Sue Luesse (Somehow,I Don't Think We're in Kansas, ToTo) Wed May 29 12:32:15 1996

C'mon, guys..

Justice is punishment? Do you really believe that? Is that the kind of Justice you look for? Thank God you don't find much of it.
Planning guarantees the intention will become reality in exactly the way planned? The adage refers to rationalizing, not to results. EVERYONE believes what they do is justified. Mother Theresa paving her way to hell? What kind of wierd logic is that?

Harlan Ellison's issue from the beginning was TOBACCO ADVERTISING and his vehement personal opinion in opposition to it. He was not 'defending his work' (not a single mention of the work), but his OPINION, which was unrelated to the work.

He has the right to express his opinion. He does not have the right to advocate Revenge as a proper response to differences of opinion.
I know, intelligent readers understand there are implicit limits. But HE did not limit sales to intelligent readers, or specify those limits, so those who take things literally, as gospel from the Great One, understand it as unlimited license. His essay ends with his 'victory'. What about those whose application of the prescribed method does not end there? What further escalating, unlimited, revenge can they imagine?

I don't doubt that corporations were motivated by greed (cost savings) to push for the regulation changes. I also don't doubt that HE's abuse gave them a tool to accomplish it.

The very idea that some action of mine, which offends the opinion of someone else, can justify them sending a hit man to threaten me and my family if I don't immediately meet their demands, is abhorant. Don't say it can't happen - HE did it. If the advertising had been for anything but tobacco, there would have been no revenge sought.

Rights are tricky things. They overlap and require compromise.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Jason (Definetly not Kathie lee Gifford) Tue May 28 22:51:38 1996
Can't...Keep...Quiet...Anymore...Must...Type!
Revenge, does it serve justice? No. Does it ensure, the schmuck won't do the same thing to the next person who comes along? No. Is it petty and self serving? Yes. So what's the problem?
Seriously though. HE stated in the essay if a lawsuit's available then go for it, but if the lawsuit isn't appropriate or wouldn't get anywhere, then go for the bomb. Also, was HE responsible for the death of post-mailing postage? I doubt it for two reasons, one the situation would be much more infamous especially if it affects other countries. Two HE couldn't have been the first one to use the postal system this way. He probably was the first one to take such advantage of it, but still, the postal service probably changed it's policies for financial reasons, am I wrong here? Were the changes brought about by HE?
I believe in the TANJ principle There Ain't No Justice, and by that I mean there is barely any justice before anyone tries to correct my grammar it's a phrase. HE has twice sued and won plagarisim suits. Someone asked him if the Terminator lawsuit would send a message in Hollywood. HE replied "you can't send a message in Hollywood, because the order changes every week. Every week there is a whole new cadre of arrogant stupid people..." I mentioned this quote a while ago when Wolfmistress brought up HE and Hollywood. There was a huge lawsuit by Jerry Seigel and Joe Shuster the creators of Superman for residuals. They won, but it didn't change standard practices, companies still own characters not creators. Chris Claremont who wrote X-Men for seventeen years, doesn't get any residuals for any characters he created. He does have the rights to his new title, but that's because D.C. comics wanted his name linked with their company, and Claremont had enough clout to make sure his creations stayed his. It won't be the same for any new writer or old writer who work for the big two of D.C. and Marvel. The industry is changing, but the lawsuit's contribution was negligible.
Getting Justice for all is almost impossible, getting justice for yourself is almost as hard in some cases. Getting some measure of satisfaction is a different story. I think getting satisfaction is what Driving in the Spikes is about. Justice is about punishment, revenge is about getting some measure of release and satisfaction from the punishment. Revenge is personal, and it's often petty. But sometimes it's the only way a person can feel better about a situation. 'Holy' wars are about more than revenge. They're about hatred and fear of what's different, and an unwillingness to change or grow.
As for the hitman incident. The comptroller was a smug arrogant man who thought he had complete control of the situation, that he could ignore everything thrown at him. The hitman was something from left field, something the comptroler couldn't control. The threat was appropriate, carrying it out would not be.
And the road to hell isn't paved with good intentions, it's paved with poorly thought out actions with good intentions. After all I wouldn't say Mother Theresa, is paving the road to hell would you?
I know this post is probably a mess. I have a bad headache I'll straighten it out tomorrow.

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Tue May 28 17:18:01 1996
Well, well, well...what d'ya know? The modem goes on the blink for a week, I take off for the three-day weekend, and come back to Webderland Sweet Webderland to find every discussing one of Ellison's great pieces. You were all alreaqdy qualified to guess that "Driving In The Spikes" was probably one of my favorite essays, and even this "lurker" can't resist comment.
The very best part is where Harlan presents and argues for the survey that found that nasty people live longer (how ironic, hmm, WM?). I'm a firm believer. *grin* I think the overall point is not at all that revenge is such a great thing, but it just makes you feel better. We all probably know people who are quiet and sweet and who carry around their anger and hurt inside until they get horrible ulcers at 40. I think Harlan is for controled aggression. I've always believe that if someone hurts you, you should do your best to make that known. By first asking nicely and then elevating his "comments," Harlan was able to express his hurt and anger. Perhaps it is true that using a professional hit man to threaten someone seems a bit severe, but so does purposefully breaking a contract with an artist and using his work for a purpose that was specifically banned. I mean, I wouldn't use a hit man on someone who cut me off on the freeway, but I don't think Harlan was so far out of line in defending his work.
Not only that, but the essay is a wonderful justification for those of us sleeping dragons who get poked once too often and react in what the majority of the "civilized" world (and I mean civilized in the same manner in which Rousseau discussed it in his first and second discourses, for those of you who are interested in reading outside Ellison) consider to be violent, angry, and uncalled for. Life would be so much better if we could just all learn to leave each other alone in the first place, and to follow through on agreements we make, but that's not in human nature and not likely to happen. So sleeping dragons like Harlan will continue to get poked and will continue to react in the only ways in which they know how to get noticed by the rest of the fools out there.

Sue Luesse (On The Downhill Side) Tue May 28 16:21:03 1996

Keegan - good questions. Can revenge be effective? Of course. That's the appeal. Does it change the behaviour of the "schmuck"? That depends on whether the "schmuck" believes it is s/he that is the "schmuck". It seems reasonable to assume that if the 'error' would be admitted and corrected for all, not just the revenge seeker, it would happen during the polite appeal to decency. When that fails, the likelyhood of 'reason' entering an escalation of hostilities is slim.
Does it do any good? Maybe. But not as much good as filing that lawsuit, and guaranteeing everyone in your boat will be treated more fairly. HE states legal action would have been too time consuming and expensive (not that it wouldn't have been effective). The expense would have been recouped if the case had been won, and a legal precedent made, which the Legal Beagles every Corp. retains and obeys would have enforced for every writers contract (lest they be sued again).
HE chose a time-consuming course of action, that cost less than lawyers, gave him personal satisfaction, and did nothing for anyone else. They still 'edit', and 'package' other writers.
Oh, and HE got a reputation for being a 'pain', which has dogged him to this day, and made it more difficult for his work to reach his audience. Seems the "schmucks" get their revenge, too... So who won?
Justice corrects a wrong for everyone. Revenge is "getting even" (or one up on) - but doesn't that make one no different than the "schmuck", who simply did the same thing first?

There's an old adage, "No one ever wins a fued". There is only the illusion of 'winning', until the next round of endless retaliation. And there are lots of innocent bystanders hurt.
I've been in a few dog-fights in my time. None of them was settled outside a court of law. The only real 'win' for justice is when the system is changed for everyone. If justice means something personal, then personal time and money to achieve it will be found, and it will be acomlished in a just manner.
I still think having a professional 'hit man' make threats against a persons family to intimidate them into conceding their position is **WAY TOO FAR**. Simply outlining 'Rules of Conduct' which include such measures does not make them acceptable.

There is a definate difference between revenge and justice. Revenge frequently tries to cloak itself as justice. Justice does not seek to hurt, but to prevent abuse.

This is an issue (revenge vs. justice) which cuts to the heart of many a just cause. Is it punishment, or healing sought? Sober stuff. Many a good cause has succumbed to revenge, and lost any claim to justice.

I get pretty serious about it, because I've seen too much of it in my fortymmbbbll years. Discrimination/reverse discrimination of all varieties, which resolves nothing - only perpetuates and escalates conflict with mutually exclusive demands for benefits derived from whichever side of the issue one happens to be on.

Let's just agree "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", and "No one is perfect". HE just happens to be a lot more public in his 'oopsies' than most of us.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan Tue May 28 14:12:24 1996
Hey all! Glad to hear that most enjoyed the weekend. I did.

Point taken about justice NOT being the same as revenge. I still don't think HE went *too* far overboard, though. Guess maybe I was just cheering for the guy who refused to let ignorance, laziness, and/or complacency walk all over him. What I wonder is whether HE's actions improved the performance of anyone he got revenge on, or whether it just made Ellison seem out of his gourd. Can revenge ever improve a situation, or does it ONLY (as Sue mentioned) have self-interest at heart? I mean, if you get revenge and someone learns not to be a schmuck next time, is it worth it? Maybe I don't really get it because I don't tend to be a get-even kind of girl. Thoughts? Direction?

WolfMistress (Renting a Port-a-Potty for the Life Hutch....) Tue May 28 11:58:48 1996
CLARIFICATION: I can't even type today. I meant: "Better late than never." And at "price no option", I of course mean any *reasonable* price, OK? I'm not payin' $200 for a comic book, I don't care *whose* stories they are!!! ;-)

I'm in a really *weird* mood today. Maybe be cause it's been raining here off and on most of the weekend, and I have taken more presecription pain medication than usual. However, considering the years I've been taking various stuff of a like nature, it doesn't have near the effect you'd think it would. Oh, well.

WolfMistress (Looking for the toilet in The Life Hutch....) Tue May 28 11:22:32 1996
Whew! What a weekend!! Went to Wiscon, met Ursula LeGuin & got her to autograph my copy of Left Hand of Darkness. Absolutely incredible woman! Some of the con was marred by the radical Feminist contingent (man-haters supreme!), but otherwise enjoyable. Went Saturday and Sunday, but only for a couple hours each day. Reason? Have acquired Angry Candy (yeah, I know, but never late than never), and issues #2 thru #5 of Dream Corridor. If anyone has any idea where I can get #1 and the Special Edition (price no option), please let me know. I think I just about OD'd on HE all weekend. I stand humbly corrected - "comics ain't just for kids no more. Ma!" And here, I thought the only mature 'adult' comic fare was Heavy Metal....

Today, however, starts off like a Monday - 9 messages on my phone when I arrived at work. And they have been assailing me in droves since. It appears my erstwhile Colleague of the Last Screw-Up decided to re-boot the network server Saturday night....Those among us who know the Esoteric Canon of Most Holy Computers and Their Peripherals will know what kind of havoc this can cause if all machines are not shut down, etc. For those who are better off not knowing The Canon, it would take too long to explain. Let's just say a mess is made that takes more brain-power to clean up than I have available at the moment. Too much Ellison on the brain; bad for logical thinking processes...

Well, Sue, I guess it's you and me into the FlamePits. You articulated my sentiments almost exactly. That is part of the reason why I chose that particular essay for discussion. I was (am) curious as to what sort of take each of us who frequent this watering-hole think about HE's reactions as he related them. I cannot agree with him on several levels, one being Sue's statement that revenge is not justice. In its way, it is petty and self-serving. Yes, HE did say he started by asking politely, and then proceeded as stated when friendly overtures were ignored. HE admits what he did, and why he did it; here and elsewhere he continually reminds us that he doesn't like being the way he is, but the Universe won't leave him alone. Understandable. The Universe screws with us all, sooner or later. How we respond is strictly a personal matter. But I can't help thinking that somewhere along the line in Driving in the Spikes, HE was enjoying the hell out what he was doing. Yes, he had been wronged. Yes, he had a right to be heard, and to have his contractual stipulations adhered to -- but underneath the rightfully wounded exterior is a little Puck-like person, sitting crosslegged on his mushroom, grinning with glee that he got the chance to do it!

I know that sounds hateful, but it is not. It is an opinion of this one particular HE writing. I do not like the story, but I can understand it. It does not diminish HE one bit in my eyes. I simply disagree with his methods.

Another part of it is the anger that drove him to respond as he did. I have a great deal to say about that, but not right now. The peasants are storming the gates....More later.

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonline.com) Tue May 28 10:18:03 1996

Looks like I'm the earlybird. I'm taking a break from post-holiday clean-up - only 3 or 4 more sinkloads of dishes, pots, pans, and etceteras to go. Good memories blunt the grumpies during the post mortems. And dogs ensure an early start to the day (they are worse than kids for potty breaks).
Jason - Thanks for the vote of confidence (she says, laughing). Discuss an ages ago story with HE at a convention?!? Just kind of drop it into the conversation, I suppose... While we sit companionably and cozy, no doubt.. I admit to being pretty pushy as I barge my way to having fun, and I freely admit I generally 'make an impression' (like a hooker in church handing out business cards), but even I know my limits.. HE and I have the personally meaningful relationship of my paying someone neither of us knows for a book he wrote.. Is there something you're not telling me about how Cons work?
I can picture myself shouting the question until I get an annoyed 'blow-off' look from HE in the distance.. Will that do? ;-)~
Of course, now you have set a goal for me, and my perverse sense of 'what-if' is in high gear. What the heck, I'll have a go at it. I promise to give a full report aftrwards. What's the worst that can happen?

Which brings me to Driving In The Spikes..

I never did like the story. Revenge is NOT justice. It is an emotional, self-serving power play. It does not bother with consequences beyond the host getting gratification. Justice is concerned with the good of all, and takes into account the consequences of an individuals actions for all those affected. Revenge is what keeps 'holy' wars going (Bosnia, Rwanda, Sri Lanka, Middle East, and endless etc.). I cannot support revenge in any guise. It undermines justice.
Yes, HE cleaarly states revenge (not justice) is the topic. He legitimized and popularized the practise in an emotionally appealing manner (David/Goliath, and all that stuff of fantasy). He makes only brief mention of the real life consequences of his highly publicized personal vendetta. Once he had pointed out this wonderful way to abuse via USPS, every crank with an axe to grind did (wrapped in the mantle of no less justification than HE claimed). It did result in changes to the postal regualtions, changes that cost everyone. No more legal requirement for mail-order businesses to provide access for customers payments, or to return unsatisfactory purchases free of charge. I think of it every time I have to find envelopes and buy stamps to pay bills (how much has it cost us all?).
Yes, I know, the cost was included in the purchase price to begin with - but it did do wonders to eliminate additional late fees for want of a stamp or envelope. And for anyone who has tried to return a mail-order purchase, the hassle of having to call to get return authorization, repackage, drag it down to the PO or call UPS for a pick-up, results in a lot of unwanted crap just being thrown out (and paid for). No reason the products should undergo any quality control, because they don't lose a penny if it comes back.
So, good for HE - he got his 'rights' and revenge for his personal crusade against tobacco advertising. (Does that make him the Father of the PC Health & Fitness Police?). And a little bit of 'nice' departed forever for all of us. I fail to see the justice.
I liked keegans response (afraid to offend). Harlan Ellison falls squarely under his own Rule #10. Emotional bullying works. That's why it is so common. I refuse to subscribe to any "end justifies the means" philosophy.

Before the flaming begins, might I say that Harlan Ellison has no doubt done all kinds of wonderful things for wonderful causes. This just isn't one of them. Doesn't diminish him as a writer, just establishes him as a mere mortal, who screws up like the rest of us, and that is allowed. He has said himself he laments his characteristic of driving through people to get where he is going. It can only be hoped he overcomes this self-decribed 'insensitivity', since he is can be so sensitive in other ways.

Hope everyone had a great Vacation (and Jason had great success with his writing project).

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

ANAKIN O'HARA (I'm here, even if you're not listening.) Sat May 25 14:26:36 1996
Hallo everybody! I'm sorry that I haven't been around, I've been
trying to convert Star Wars Fans into Unca Harlan's Kids. Two that
I know seem very interested, hey I have my own chat room at Irresistable Chat,
it's called Mara's Cafe, and I'll be there Mon-Thursday 7pm-8pm eastern,
and Fri+Sat, 3pm-4pm eastern, and the server was moved to http://199.237.164.70/
it's still the chatterbox. So, I hope to see you guys around. Ciao, Anakin. ;-)
P.S. My Handle at the chatterbox is Mara Skywalker, so, I'll be around, bye for now. (-o-)

keegan (singing the Song the Zombie Sang) Fri May 24 17:16:29 1996
Three-Day Weekend! Da-dum-dum-dum-dum-doodle-dee-doooo.....

Oh! Sorry. I was trying to remember the Three-Day weekend ditty I heard on my way to work. Wish I could remember it because it captured the exuberance of the situation. Alas, I'm reduced to scat.

WM: Have GREAT fun this weekend! WisCon sounds cool. You know, I could stand to be away from folks for days at a time, too. I have siblings but I think I take *my* hermitage to escape the "familial noise". I always come back, though. I wish I could create more lengthy periods of solitude, but for now I take 'em as they come.

Don't know when I'll be able to pick up "Driving in the Spikes" for a re-read. My general feeling after reading the piece was, "gosh. I'm going to be REAL careful to never piss off Ellison." (not that I think I'm that dense, but I've been known to say and do bonehead things)

I thought Harlan's approach to justice--a justice which acknowleges anger of the wronged party- is quite healthy. Harlan doesn't advocate going overboard in fits of rage at first offense. One asks politely at first, and if reasonable demands are not met, dealings slowly escalate to the posting of bricks. It is fair, and I sense strong roots in Judaic concepts of justice. If I'm wrong, somebody call me on it and set me straight. It is clear to me though, that Harlan is talking about real justice--getting even. Cash awards in lawsuits are really, in a way, SYMBOLIC justice. An eye for an eye and all that, but since the defendant needs his eye (not to metion that it would be Cruel and Unusual) you'll have to take forty million dollars instead. I don't believe in Cruel punishment, but certainly I think there's something to be said for Unusual pusnishment if it makes the point: Drives in the Spikes.

Jason (scratching my head at the mouse circus) Fri May 24 16:59:48 1996
Wow it's been deader here, then Grim Jack McCray's Merry Mortuary. I've been working on a story submission for Wildstorm.

At the mouse circus, Billy Batson is indeed Captain Marvel and the Dorado is the golden calf, that is later sacrificed, as gives the woman a light. Other than that I'm still not sure of all the symbolisim in the story. Perhaps Sue you could ask HE at Comicon.
Pretty busy catch up later
Jason

Sue Luesse (getting claustrophobic in my Life Hutch(jaluesse@htonline.com)) Fri May 24 15:28:08 1996

Glad to see ya WolfMistress. I was beginning to think the world had ended while keegan and I were safely under the blankets of our beds with flashlights and books, and 'mas' was the only other survivor.. ;) A dark storyline in that idea.. Any takers among all you writers?
Hope you do go to that Con. I can 'get behind' (HUMPhhh..ah-yaah) the getting older getting more solitary. I can say for myself, that it is a cyclic thing. I get ambitious (tired of being bored), and head out for Big Living, New Things, Expanding Horizons.. That's part of the 'Hi-y'all-hyuck-hyuck' curiousity, and hopeful innocence I never surrendered to the Bottom Line, Big Picture, Team Player, Mature World (and don't intend to, either). So off I go adventuring, seeing new stuff, meeting new people, learning, and growing.. Until, somewhere along the line something jumps up and bites my butt (and I recognize the matching dental work from long ago preserved in my scarred behind). And then fun seems more like work, 'cause I know it isn't really entirely new - just another incarnation of the same old sh@! - and I feel old, and beaten, and just want to get away from it all. So I go home, and lock the doors, and make friends use passwords and countersigns to get in, and breath a big sigh of freedom-from relief. Until I get bored..
I'm pretty sure it was always that way, I just recouperated more quickly when I was younger. It is a interesting tension generated between the opposing need to be 'me' as an individual, and the needs of the social animal I am. Lots of good energy in it.

This being a holiday weekend pretty well squelches any inclinations for solitary pursuits, so I will get to Driving in the Spikes Monday night or Tuesday, and report in.. How about feedback on The Other Eye of Polyphemus while we're at it. That story is almost cinematic, and it gets under the skin in strange ways.

Hope to see the rest of you soon.

And Happy "fjkghfkj" to you too, mas.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress (Slogging through The Cosmic Barnyard....) Fri May 24 14:22:18 1996
In case anyone's interested, please check out the following web-site: *http://www.cs.wisc.edu/wiscon* . That's where I'll be all weekend - WISCON 20, what they're billing as the "Greatest Confluence of Feminist Science Fiction Ever!" I'n not so hot on the feminism part, considering the kinds of feminists Madison attracts, but what the hell. Ursula K. LeGuin is GOH, and I've been dying to meet her for years. Somehow, I've always missed her at other cons, or didn't go to one where she was appearing. Judith Merril is Special Guest. May 24-27, Concourse Hotel just off Capitol Square. Since I live a couple blocks over from the Square -- why let a good Con go to waste?? Unfortunately, it's sold out, but being a member of a large RPG group, half of whose members are on the Con Committee, has its privileges...

Otherwise, I've spent the last two days still trying to get my network to function with a modicum of stability, and running back & forth to the Doctor-Gods. After all is said and done, they tell they really don't know what is wrong, but they *do* know its a regular ailment of women over 40, etc., etc. Whoop-de-doo, folks! They gave me a scrip and bade me go and accept my plight with aplomb!! Bullshit.

If the current mood maintains, I might end up in my apartment for the whole 3 days. I've done it before often enough and I have Edgeworks to read, among other things. Being an only child, a "solitary", I've never been much of a social animal anyway. Not really. Yeah, I did my share when I was younger and trying to "fit in" with one group or another, but somewhere along the line, I finally realized that I didn't belong in 'any' group because I was the "sand in the machinery" of their staid, well-guarded social order. So, the older I get, the more solitary I get, if that's possible. I can literally go for days and not say one word to another Human Being. I've done it. Doesn't bother me any. I've got around 400 music CDs and a mountain of books I've bought with the intention of reading as time permits. I could probably hole-up for the better part of a year without interacting with another soul....

Anti-social? I have a very strong suspicion that I am, in a way. It's probably part of the reason why I gave up trying to be a psychologist and opted for playing with computers. Machines don't talk back, they don't criticize, they don't get their feelings hurt, they don't give you any more than you put into them. No more and no less. And when I'm finished with them for the day, I turn them off and they remain silent until I turn them back on again. Who knows?

Look, everybody have a great weekend. If I don't drop in before today's over, I'll catch you Tuesday. For a discussion topic how about 'Driving In The Spikes'? Have a *safe* holiday, folks.

mas (I don't have one yet) Thu May 23 16:28:36 1996
jkfdhgkjfdghfjkd

Sue Luesse (Susie is five an five an five..) Thu May 23 16:11:47 1996

Hey!! No Fair!! I'm still waiting for my decoder ring, and I hated the cereal I had to eat twelve boxes of to order..

Guess everyone 'has a life'.. Wait a minute!?.. If everyone who has a life isn't HERE, and I am here.. Well, shoot..

I'm off to find a life. Follow the Yellow Brick Road.

Watch out for the Wicked Wit of the West (and don't stand directly under one of those flying monkey things...)

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan (keegan is 25 (now THERE's a wish)) Thu May 23 14:49:50 1996
Awwwww. Nobody here to play with. An' I got my Captain Midnight Decoder badge an'everything!!!

keegan Wed May 22 22:38:02 1996
errrr... I guess that shoulda been past tense: "ruled"

keegan Wed May 22 22:35:19 1996
Just checked Chicago Comicon homepage (thanks, Sue) and my heart is heavy. It looks quite fun and I really WANT to go, but alas, the forces in my life are not propelling me in that direction. *(heavy)sigh* Well, I guess it'll stand up as incontravertable evidence that I do indeed have a life. If any of ya go and see the Ellisons (like-uh-duh) would ya say hi to them for me?

BTW- I must say that I'm doubly bummed because I absolutely dig Walter Koenig. Chekov rules!!!!

Hey, Jason- how goes with "Mouse Circus"? Any less murk?

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Wed May 22 14:55:03 1996
Scarlett: I just meant that I couldn't find a place where she had seen fit to attack you in the same manner. Sorry if my meaning was misconstrued -- the gun was not aimed at you, dear.
Everyone: Please don't miss Sue's first paragraph of Tues. May 21. While my advocacy of her statement may do her more harm than good, I wholeheartedly agree. I, too, get the feeling that Harlan would be pleased. Too bad we haven't yet coaxed him to join us.

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Wed May 22 14:50:17 1996
Scarlett: I just meant that I couldn't find a place where she had seen fit to attack you in the same manner. Sorry if my meaning was misconstrued -- the gun was not aimed at you, dear.

Sue Luesse (Picking out my 'Forward To' address in the Tombs) Wed May 22 13:18:57 1996

Yesterday (a beautiful day, BTW) I rode down to the County Office of an organization dedicated to eliminating bigotry in our fair neck of the woods. I had received a bulky packet in the mail from a consortium of national crusaders against bigotry which included videotapes, teaching materials, resource lists, and other information I thought would be put to better, and wider, use by a group than just me. I pulled into the parking lot, and as I walked toward the door that was propped open, an arm reached out and shut it. Foolish me didn't get the hint. Thought that the office being located in a church probably meant they couldn't afford to air-condition the great outdoors. Went in, and heard voices - not a soul in sight. Located the office, and stood in front of a desk for several minutes, all by myself in the room. Finally, the Pastor of the church appeared in the hallway outside the door, and asked what I wanted. Told him I just wanted to donate some materials for their efforts. He stretched to take them out oof my hand like it was a letter bomb. I ran down the list of what was in the packet, and told him I had included a pre-adressed, stamped envelope for the one resource which had not included a no-postage-needed response card.
He finally looked AT me. Then he began pulling out the materials. His excitement was grew with each new 'goody' extracted. Without looking AT me, he turned and headed for another office door..

I said, "You're welcome". He looked AT me again.

I smiled and said, "Always nice to do my part to help stamp out prejudice. He did have the good grace to blush and stammer as I left. He will figure out who I was if he is humble enough to ask around.

True story. Real life. I do so enjoy 'bustin' stereotypes - where 'bustin' may have some lingering impact and value.

Got our tickets to Chi-Comic-Con in the mail today. If you order in advance, they give you a red stub redeemable for a souveigner program, if you wait in line at the right window. Other than that, the Home Page has more information. We've decided to take a few vacation days, and make it a four-day weekend funsy in Chi-Town. Got to be four days worth of neat stuff to do in Chicago.. Still haven't located Strange Wine. Thought I had it - but it turned out to be Dandelion Wine amidst the Ellison in error. I imagine Strange Wine is hidden among the Bradburys. I did enjoy re-reading what I found, though. Guess that is why we kept it in the first place. But, if it means anything, I haven't ignored or given up on In Fear of K. Just have to apply my archeaological excavation skills to finding it. So much to do. So many pleasant tangents. So little time..

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Scarlett (kagricola@amhs.com) Wed May 22 11:30:42 1996
Keegan - Thank you for your "sappy, sentimental soul", since you choose to call it that. I am inclined to call it respect for human dignity.

I seem to be getting lumped into subgroups of this bulletin board, even to the point of being singled out by name. Is it that assumptions are being made about my views because I have chosen not to address certain issues on the board? This irks me only slightly. Mostly, I am amused. For the record, I'd like to throw my two-cent's worth in.

Kris - You claim that I apparently "fit nicely into WM's defined majority". I had to smile at that one. Personally, I have found she and I (and indeed every person on this board to be vastly, beautifully and decidedly different. If you mean that I support the effort to clean up Edgeworks, I suppose I do. I support it, though for my own reasons. Regardless of how much personal value I place on Ellison's words, regardless of how sacred the printed page may be to me, NOTHING is UNIVERSALLY sacred. The point at which we sanctify objects or ideas and declare that they must be kept holy for EVERYONE is the point at which we go to unholy measures to achieve that. Lives are sacrificed every day in the name of one "holy" war or another: Non-believers die because the "One True Church" is sacred. Clinicians die beacuse Life is sacred (oh, the irony). Soft-pelted creatures and miles of rainforest are sacrificed to the money-god... Respect for human beings and their opinions is sacrificed in a hymn sung to the gospel of ONE MAN.

Unhappy with Edgeworks? Do what you have to do. Take it back, if you like. Make your statement that way. Picket your local bookstore. Mail White Wolf a dead rat. Rant and rave here some more, if you like, whatever you need to do. Make a difference your way and respectfully allow these people to do the same. Me? I'm over the typos. The meat still tastes the same.

That's one cent.

WM - I trust that Jason has adequately explained why discussion was of both the written and filmed versions of "A Boy and His Dog. Allow me to add this: It has always been the way of literature to inspire art in other forms. (Yes, film is an art form which, like any other medium, may or may not have merit in the eyes of the beholder). A Medieval sonnet "La Belle Dame Sans Merci" has inspired a retelling by Yeats and several masterworks of Pre-Raphaelite painting. Klimt was inspired by "Der Niebelungenlied". Picasso painted Don Quixote. As for film: "Wuthering Heights", "Orlando", "Cyrano de Bergerac", "A Clockwork Orange"... the list goes on. Some of the best films ever made had their origins in great literature. Do I feel the viewing of a film version should replace the reading of the written work? No. Do some people spend decades in movie theaters and suckling at the glass teat without ever cracking a book? Yes. If one medium can inspire another, can't the medium of film draw the viewer to seek out a work in its written form? Of course. Even if countless millions have only met Vic and Blood via celluloid, I am THANKFUL that those people have at least been exposed to the IDEAS they represent. Hopefully, they come away enriched by them.

That's two cents.

-- Scarlett

Jason (Buried alive in the tombs) Tue May 21 22:00:38 1996
Just going through the posts of the past few days, and I've come to a conclusion. The only thing we all agree on is that none of really understands At the Mouse Circus. My best guess at the moment is that we're not getting all the references in the story. Going to try and take it apart tonight, and report tomorrow.

Until then

Your humble servant Jason

keegan (@the House Circus) Tue May 21 18:06:01 1996
Hey, all- it's interesting to read your posts regarding "At the Mouse Circus". Lots of well-founded insight on a story that admittedly leaves me baffled (and I've read it a few times). I rather like Sue's take on the story as a description of deteriorating mental health. I've studied schizophrenia and have hung out with schizophrenics and "Mouse Circus" definitely has some of that quality--the self-made reality in particular. Could it be that HE is suggesting that if you deny who you REALLY are, then you are on a path toward insanity? That's an off-the-cuff thought, but I thought I'd throw it into the fray.

Also, the "bickering" here (for lack of a better word) is sometimes disheartening (oh, I'm such a sappy sentimental soul). Shows you the power of the written word to affect others, that's for sure. This is just a gentle reminder for folks to remember Rick's 3/13 rant about online communications. If I insult you with a smile on my face in Real Life, you'd be able to take my words for the joke I intend them to be. But if I wrote those words down and fling them into cyberspace, they're capable of starting a "war". All I'm really saying is that it is likely that any one post may be read in many different ways by different readers--kinda like we all have our own personal take on HE's stories. I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching. I believe I've been on both sides of this phenomenon (misunderstanding and being misunderstood). I'm currently working on the art of letting things slide. When the Nazis round up the Jews and the gays in my neighborhood, that is NOT a time to let things slide. But when talking between friends, a prickly viewpoint or tone sometimes needs to be ignored. It's often difficult to know when to let slide and when to speak up. If I'm not sure, I try to sleep on it. Sometimes, though, I just get so rankled that I let fly right then and there. Look, I'm not implying that any individual here has done anything "wrong". I'm simply throwing out my opinion about the issue in general (and, oh, aren't those generalities BIG fun). Don't anyone go taking this too personally. I'm just a-blatherin' on.

BTW, I still maintain that stereotypes can be hearty amusement if what you get off on is busting 'em apart. It rocks peoples' doors when you don't conform nicely to their image. Fun to watch their faces......

Sue Luesse (The Sky Is Burning) Tue May 21 17:14:38 1996

What an odd thing - a group of people whose point of common interest is independent thought, are touchy about being stereotyped and labelled... Who would ever have thought a Board dedicated to Harlan Ellison would have an edge... Or that those who read HE would be by random chance all prone to think about the themes of his writing, and find them personally enlightening about personal experiences... Go figure... Why do I get the feeling HE would be pleased?

Mouse King struck me as a graphic description of growing insanity, told from the point of view that is going insane. The Mouse King declares from the outset that he creates his own reality, and the reader is aware that his interpretation of facts is less than accurate. As the story (and he) unravels, it becomes less and less lucid, more and more symbolic (with a logic that makes sense only to the Mouse King), until it ends with his realization that he is no longer in control. I think all the comments about 'associations' are probably valid, since that is the nature of madeness - to see associations and connections with implied Special Significance that do not really exist. I thought the intro was referring to what happens when a person denies what they are, and tries to become what they are not (and cannot be).

Thanks for the space, Rick. Truly worth the read, regardless of where I 'fit'. So many different points of view, seem to blend into a stronger understanding of what they are all observing. Doesn't require approval, or correction. Everyone has experience, their experience is valid, and no one person has it all. I like things being fleshed out for me (and you could go a little easier on the tenderizing - maybe some MSG every now and then, instead of the many pointed mallet..)

It has been pointed out to me that I lack what it takes to write well. For the record - I don't have what it takes to write well (and I have a pile of twenty year old rejection slips to prove it). I'm not concerned about it. I do concern myself with the thoughts and perspectives of others, which enrich my understandings. So keep it up everyone. See if you can make my brain overload. I'm a willing guinea pig.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress (rwhiteanderson@kraft.com) Tue May 21 15:09:56 1996
Ms. Homyk -- See you in you in private e-mail.

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Tue May 21 14:55:55 1996
P.S. Just to clarify for everyone, because there have been questions, there is a Scarlett here and a Kris(ten). The parentheses and "ten" are silent. "Scarlett" has apparently fit nicely into WolfMistress's defined majority, I guess. Kris(ten) is the royal pain in the ass. If I had the book with me, I'd give ya'll what Harlan quotes about being sand and not oil in the machinery. For the record, Kris(ten) is the sand in (at least in WolfMistress's mind) the machinery. Scarlett is the other one. As far as I know, we are not related, and I don't know her other than the page, so I can't speak for her.
Also, feel free to jump all over me at if72@jove.acs.unt.edu if you are confused as to who I am. Feel free to jump all over me anyway, it's good for the development of a tough skin against idiocy.

WolfMistress (lost in the plumbing....) Tue May 21 14:53:19 1996
*BETH* -- The following my reply to the question from way back if you haven't seen it re: "At The Mouse Circus". That one throws me, too. Since the story
was written in 1971, I was trying to put it into social context, and all I could come up with is as follows: The mention of Camelot brought to mind what everyone was calling the Kennedy administration after the assasination;
this little Golden Time for America. Historical accuracy had nothing to do with the shockwave the assassination itself caused. So maybe the Camelot image has something to do with it. The other allusion was to calling the Cadillac a 'Hog'. During the 70s, Cadillac Eldorados were the car of choice for pimps and players, and was referred to as a 'Hog' by these people. I know this from spending time on the streets of Detroit in those days, during
the exceedingly wild years of my marriage. Most of these pimps and players were Black, if that has anything to do with the story. I just don't know. I've tried to consider it from a psychological point of view, but all I get from it is
hopelessness, and a sense of abandonment.

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Tue May 21 14:37:29 1996
Wolfmistress: What does understanding the majority's POV have to do with anything? What amazes me is that you could make a comment like that on a webpage dedicated to Harlan Ellison, for God's sake. It's not that I don't understand the majority, it's just that I disagree and I have the right to disagree, loudly if I want to, as long as I'm not rude and Rick doesn't ban me from the page. Thanks, though, for reminding me that are still people out there who think the majority's POV matters in an intelligent discussion between individuals.
Secondly, for you it is "mad money" maybe, but how can you be so foolish as to assume that it is that way for everyone? Some of us are slaving our way through college on bits and pieces, thank you. My one vice is book buying, but a $25 book is pretty dear. I'm so glad you have plenty of money to throw around, but everyone does not. I'll excuse your thinking so and kindly will not credit your commentary in this area to a lack of intelligence, despite the obviously amount of people in this country to whom $25 might mean several meals.
And Lastly, it's not that the Webderland comments page is not "good enough" for me. I never said or implied that, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. It's simply that I rarely have the time on-line to do anything but answer my e-mail and check the homepage to see if Rick has updated the news. I'm simply not here enough. You guys have a wonderful discussion group here, but I feel I wouldn't be doing my share to only join in the discussion every so often when time allows and not keep up the rest of the time. There's much off-topic Ellison I would have to keep up with. Plus, I really love Harlan's work, but for me, much of it has been enhanced by intensely personal experiences that affect my interpretations. I'm just not able, nor do I want to be able to, add those things to the discussion, so my ideas on particular Ellison stories probably would not be of import to most of you and are too personal for me to post anyway.
It's really funny to me that you can so quickly dismiss a human being you have never met and hardly read. I mean, you have no idea what condition my finances might be in, and you have no idea why in the world I might not post here. You were awful quick to jump to the conclusion that it might be because you weren't good enough, and I'm wondering if perhaps that conclusion was drawn from terribly mean-spirited posts such as your own.
Unfortunately for you, you can't drive me away that easily. As I've said, I'll be here until Rick bans me. I'll continue to read the page, and to throw in what *I* feel might be relevant, until they take my keyboard and my first amendment away. Maybe a comfortable group needs a dissenting voice now and then. Ironically enough, I learned that as a writer, I do have the right to be the dissenting voice as loudly and as often as I want to, from my much-beloved Unca Harlan.

Beth (witkowski.7@osu.edu) Tue May 21 14:10:37 1996
WolfMistress: Donıt be so hasty to assume that you offended all your fellow females in Webderland. I consider myself an egalitarian (or is that egalitarianist?). Maybe some women didnıt/donıt like the Quilla character bc sheıs the kind of woman who gives those of us who have their shit together a bad name. But, hey, so was the woman afraid to merge into traffic in front of me this morning, and I suppose she has a right to exist, too. I believe in using stereotypes or negative images to eradicate stereotypes and negative images-- not pretending they donıt exist.

Regarding ³At the Mouse Circus²: Canıt say I understand it exactly, but itıs meaning seems to be related to the ³Deathbird Stories² introduction (Oblations of the Dinosaurs [something like that, I donıt have it with me now]). I was confusing ³oblation² with ³ablution² at first, and thought that was related to the protagonistıs 40 minute shower. After looking it up, it makes a bit more sense.

Thereıs the recurring gold theme: Eldorado, etc. Maybe the hanging, draining-blood golden thing is the golden calf, symbolic of the protagonistıs previous belief. Previous to being shown the death of the dinosaurs (old gods) caused by man (new god). The consumption of the Eldorado is his oblation to the new god????

³The King of Tibet² keeps asking what time it is and HE ends the book into with ³itıs later than you think².

Maybe refusing to help Billy Batson and Mickey Mouse bc theyıre ³not his dream² is either his prejudice against other religions or his denial of his own heritage/beliefs.

Iım still a bit sketchy on the story intro though: ³This is what happens when a black man worships a white god². Whatıs the white god: sex? greed (gold)? And I really donıt get why heıs supposed to be a white mouse. I think this goes back to the denial of his heritage/beliefs. Perhaps his title refers to either a refusal to accept the stereotypical role of the black man in society (he was told he could be whatever he wanted to be) or to his willingness to (if heıs supposed to be a ³white mouse²)? Is there meaning in Nita taking something from him, or is it just the typical mythological, returning from the underworld thing (Persephoneıs pomegranate seed).

Hmmmmmmmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.

keegan (A girl and her yak) Tue May 21 14:09:14 1996
Re: Was "A Boy and His Dog" anti-feminist? Answer: No, not really. It was a work of fiction with sharp-edged words about society, survival, and loyalty. I agree with WolfMistress-Quilla was no saint. Neither was Vic, though he was at least relatively honest about it. Blood? Now THERE's the saint. Quilla was not trustworthy and I agree that it was a case of "eat or be eaten". Blood needed and deserved a meal. Vic gave what he could to the only being that had proven himself worthy. Just happened to be his chick.

Sue--I'll shoot ya some email soon. Right now, it's nuts 'round here as we try to figure out which mortgage will screw us the least. Meetings, meetings, meetings and a whole heap o' angst!

Wolf-Mommy Tue May 21 13:20:34 1996
Jason - you *do* know how to put an old bird in her place, don't you?!! ;-) You are highly respected for your opinions. Keep it up. Please see subsequent postings after my original for more commentary.

Jason (an E-Mail address for the greater good) Tue May 21 13:09:25 1996
WM the reason People said they'd watch the movie is because, I asked about the movie in comparison to the story. The movie has been rated one of the best of the genre. HE endorses the picture, at least to the point that he defended it to a group of of protesting feminists. I was curious to see if people thought the movie was as effective as the story, most of the changes were cosmetic, certain things they can't show in 1975 that sort of thing.
Personally I thought we were here to talk about Ellison, regardless of the medium. Dream Corridor are stories adapted by others, with his consent and recommendation, does that that mean we can't discuss them, because they're not his work exactly? Terminator was discussed here a while back. If HE ever does get around to writing the 'sequel' of Demon with a Glass hand for Babylon 5 (has he I don't know) I'm sure we'll talk about that too. I brought up the A boy and his dog movie, because I thought it would be something interesting to talk about, and as it's HE related, it belongs here. I like the tstory more, but the movie stands on it's own.

Your humble servant Jason

WolfMistress (Over the edge, any minute now....) Tue May 21 13:03:22 1996
Yeah, I know. I talk too much. Too bad. Until Rick limits each comment to so many lines per person, here I go!

Additional on A Boy and His Dog - for those who may have 'moral' problems with the 'survival at all costs' opinion (mine), please remember to look at it *in context*. In the milieu given, Quilla would either have killed Vic & Blood, caused them to be killed, or most likely would have been taken by one of the roverpacs, considering her nature. They would have used her and thrown her away, literally. In that sense, then, her being used to save Blood's life makes more sense. No use in wasting good meat (and I'm not trying to be funny, either).

People I know seem to have a world of trouble understanding me when they ask my opinions of things that are set in a wholly different historical/social background than our own society. Especially the 'feminist' contingent. Everything is measured against 'current' cultural workings instead of those in which the incidents took place. Wrong!! So much for 'informed' criticism. That's as bad a book I am currently reading (I usually read 2 or 3 at a time), Acceptable Risk by Robin Cook. The female protagonist goes on about an ancestor who was possibly wrongly-killed during the Salem Witch Hunt. She gets into the usual feminist ravings about how women of that time were treated, etc., ad nauseum. It is given to the male lead to clarify that *at that time* women were taught to act a certain way and to be a certain way (especially according to the Puritan Biblical teachings), and that such was *normal* then. Only after this did the wimpy, Prozac-prone woman look into the whole thing on her own and realize that her ancestor probably had more rights than most other women because her husband travelled a lot as a ship-builder, and he had signed papers giving her the right to act in his stead. (The book's protagonist thought this was exceptionally demeaning - that a woman had to be given 'permission' to do something by a *man*!). Anyway, you see my point. It makes me grind my teeth almost as much as seeing the movie instead of reading the book does. So there. That's all for the moment.

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonline) Tue May 21 12:44:21 1996

Clean as a baby's butt, and back in the e-mail business. Seems the system just sent back e-mail arbitrarily for a while there. Remail - I will ge them. (Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...).

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress (Drifting in the Bladder....(don't ask)) Tue May 21 11:16:55 1996
Got a problem with our Net web site, I guess. I can send comments of only a certain length before the thing just sits there and jibbers! Will call Corporate in a bit. (Like *they* know any more than I do!)

COMMENTS, Part 2 -- As for the story itself, I said on Mar. 22 when I first posted here that it was the story that got me through numerous surgeries, etc. over the past 20 years. To me, it's a story of survival and loyalty. I never thought of it in a "feminist" view (probably because I'm not a feminist in the current PC interpretation of the word). I've always been an independent, self-sufficient Human Being, period. If people want to call that "feminist", good for you. Whatever floats your boat.

I said I was going to scan the story again last night, and I did. Then I realized I knew the entire thing almost verbatim, I had re-read it so much. That story did more than I can ever explain to keep me fighting when fighting was the most necessary.

In my opinion, Vic's need for a female to satiate his sex drive is totally overcome by two things - his his love for and loyalty to Blood, and the sudden awareness that the 'downunders' were a lot worse than he and his own kind of solos and/or roverpacs. The things he and Blood, and all the others did was for survival in a world gone totally to hell. Quilla's savagery was for the thrill of it, because Humanity's dark side had to be totally curtailed for the good of the community. But just beneath the surface was a savagery unlike any Vic and his kind knew. An animal tendency strong enough to make Quilla want to kill her own mother. Even Vic could not abide that. And I think Blood knew how Quilla was all along, but he knew Vic would have to learn it for himself, on his own. It's sort of like the parent/child relationship, in this case with Blood being the parent. We can take them only so far - after that, they've got to go it alone.

Now, I know I'm going to annoy the rest of the female contingent here, but too bad. In my opinion, Quilla got what she deserved under the circumstances. Within the societal context of the story my reasons are: (1) it was a matter of survival for Blood, whom Vic needed worse than he needed sex, and (2) given the glimpse of evil we see in Quilla, chances are she would have killed both Vic and Blood sooner or later, just for the 'fun' of it. She was symbolic of all the so-called 'civilized' society had become. No thank you.

And as for women's overall "place" in that society - they really didn't have one, other than maybe as breeders. Above didn't have enough to make a difference, it appears. And 'downunder' needed them solely for breeders. Altogether, it's still a matter of *survival* - as individuals, as a group, as a race, whatever.

I my own opinions/ideas about this "feminist" thing, and considering when the story was originally published, feminism wasn't that big a deal. Still isn't in my opinion.

WolfMistress (Adrift off the Islets of Langerhans..trying to find the bladder..) Tue May 21 11:15:34 1996
Yes, I am in a really, really *odd* frame of mind today. If I come on a little strong, well, " then that's the way it shall be" (spoken by Cmdr. Kruge, a Klingon, in one of the ST movies).

First off, I'm glad to see everyone alive and well. *Question!!* -- are you Scarlett or Kristen? Please clarify. Thanks. Don't want to be jumping all over the wrong person....;-)

Something that has set me to a slow boil - Jason mentioned discussing A Boy and His Dog - everyone who responded (except myself), mentioned they were going to watch the *movie* again!!! Excuse me??? All right, maybe I'm seeing something that isn't here. If so, tell me. Otherwise, I'm grinding my teeth in severe frustration.

To me, that sounded like all these lazy kids from grade-school to college who go rent the video or read the Cliff Notes when asked to do a book report, for god's sake! Sacrilege! The book and the movie are two different things. Personally, I don't think I ever saw the movie, because the story is one of my all-time Ellison favorites, and I've seen enough screen hatchet-jobs, thank you.

I thought that we, as a group, were better than that. I thought we were here to discuss the *written* Ellison, not Hollyweird's crude imitations thereof. Got to cut off here. The Net connection is having spasms. Oh, joy & rapture!!

Sue Luesse ((Out of the Silent Planet) (jaluesse@htonline.com)) Tue May 21 07:08:44 1996

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU ----- (fill in god of choice).

We've been off line since Friday. Major system crash. Seems proprietary DOS of computer in-house from computer company and Windows 95 had a war, and we lost.

Anyone I have sent e-mail to CHECK YOUR SYSTEM (in particular, the Net cache). When my beloved other ran a Norton Diagnostic on the thing to find out whatthe problem was, It turned up hidden files in the Net cache, which our kindly Webmaster said 'probably' didn't get passed on to anyone. Hadn't started running in our system yet - but it was there. Forewarned is four armed, or something like that. Still have to get the e-mail straightened out, so bear with us. I'm not ignoring anyone.

Well, well. jt - to what point? I don't respond to anonymous literature of any ilk (good ol' Grandma used to say "If it's not good enough to put your name on, it's just not good enough."). In particular, I think things which are the 'babies' of the creative process engender maternal bondings (read that 'defended like a Tiger defends her cubs'), and discussion should be solicited by the parent (and done in private, like e-mail).

Seems that my cheapness has benefits. I've managed to miss the real life drama of Edgeworks. I was gonna wait til they perfected it and dropped the price (a philosophy acquired from my father, who is still waiting to buy his first VCR, and computer - though he did finally buy his first color TV in '88)..

If there were some doubt that the author cared about the quality of print (licking fingers to count the money snickering sort), then I would say why bother. Silly me. And think twice before buying another work. But I seriously doubt anyone thinks HE is that way. So it comes down to the age-old "If he had a big greenie surfing his lip.." Do you tell him? Do hang in there giving directions until hankie bags the booger? What do you care how he looks? Sure it's a shock. But sh@t happens, and the question is what, if anything, can you do about it - and how much are you willing to do.

Jason - Read and watched Boy and His Dog. One of the few times I felt a movie did justice to the book. Film and print are different media, and each has distinctive qualities the other cannot duplicate. Crossovers in either direction generally diminish in character during the transition. Not so A Boy and His Dog. Each is distinct in utilizing the unique qualities of its medium.

And what's the deal with the name thingies? You're messing with my mind, aren't you? Just figured out who is who, and then you're somebody else.. Or is it really my mind???

As for stereotypes, OF COURSE! And that is the point of the tale - an extrapolation of today's reality into the ungodly future. The characters BUY it, support it, uphold it, deify it. From the ending (which made me burst out laughing the first time I read it, and I still smile every time), it is clear HE does not approve or agree with the Party Line (surprise?). I never took any offense as a female for the presentation of miscegenism as an evil, and did not take the finale to be a comment on the gender of the 'dinner guest', but rather an indictment of the system she represented.

Glad to see Scarlet and Kris are the timorous types ;-)~.. What you miss in a scant few days!

Spent the last few days with my newest treasures - four new bonsai. Neighbors are used to me flinging my arms skyward, dancing around a startled UPS guy, shouting the BONES-EYES are HERE!

Probably spend the next few days catching up on e-mail, once we get it up and running again.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Jason (In the Tombs) Tue May 21 00:00:51 1996
WM yes I found it, haven't had a chance to really go through it though

Scarlett it's in Deathbird stories and the Essential Ellison.
I'm interested about a woman's point of view on the story, because of Vic's attitude about women, and the general attitude about women in the story. Is this story innappropriate now? Also if you've seen the movie how does it compare?

On another note, I got an e-mail from J.T. and in retrospect, I regret some of the things I posted, but I still don't appreciate the condescending attitude that he uses.

That's about it for the next 12 hours or so.

Your humble servant Jason

Scarlett (kagricola@amhs.com) Mon May 20 17:46:45 1996
I'd like to tell you how exhausted I am after reading a weekend's-worth of posts from you lot. Thank the various and sundry gods that we are all scattered to the four winds, otherwise I'd likely have you all over to duke it out in person... then where would this board be?

Regarding education and personal responsibility: That ground has been thoroughly covered as far as any commentary I might have had. In a similar vein, however, I'd like to recommend an essay which had a profound effect on me. It is called "How I Learned to Think". In it, William Golding (Lord of the Flies, NOT Marathon Man - that was GoldMAN) describes three levels of thinking. The first and least productive level is more instinct and upbringing than actual thought, and leads to intellectually unfounded prejudice. The second "higher" level is deconstructive; analyzing and tearing down ideas and institutions, et cetera. The third and "highest" level, to which Golding feels thinkers should aspire, takes deconstruction one step further; attempting to solve perceived problems and erect something new in their place. It is an excellent essay and although I am not sure where it was originally published, I can research it and/or make it available for anyone who is interested.

Oops. Didn't mean to babble on like that.

Jason - I read "A Boy and His Dog" again recently. I'll need to revisit the film (tonight, perhaps?) before I can comment intelligently on it. Also, I may take you up on your open invitation to correspond directly. I enjoy your insight. My own mailbox is always open, particularly to Webderland residents and other bibliophiles.

Regarding "At the Mouse Circus": I tore through my collection looking for it (or at least the portion that is NOT in storage). No luck. Where can I find that story?

Rick - I don't know WHAT happend with the e-mail, but I did receive your message both times. That reply was rather a long time coming, wasn't it. ;) All my best.

-- Scarlett

keegan Mon May 20 14:47:31 1996
Hey, WM--I hear ya and I agree. It takes effort to fix stuff. It's a cinch to sit back and complain (I've been known to do my share of THAT, too). The point is well made and well-taken. My philosophy is try to give back at LEAST as much as you take and preferably, give just a little more than you take.

That costume sounds sooo beautiful!!! Wish ya had a jpeg of it up so I could take a peek.

keegan Mon May 20 14:40:41 1996
Jason- I haven't seen "A Boy and His Dog" yet. My video rental place is lame. I loved the story though, of course (and I do hope you realize my comment about Canada was in no way a put down. I have seriously considered emigrating there since high school--looked very seriously at McGill when choosing colleges, but a school in the states made me an offer I couldn't refuse).

WM-ditto what Jason said. Don't go. We're frustrating, but we need your voice. You make me think and what's more, consider how others FEEL.

Kris-I didn't take your comments to be anything more than frustration with the typo situation. Yeah, caveat emptor and all that, but I still feel a little ripped-off, too. Twenty five bucks is still a reasonably big deal to me. I've been starved of HE for so long though that I'll "eat" the stuff a little burned if necessary.

Rick-you rule! 'Nuff said.

WolfMistress (rwhiteanderson@kraft.com (for those who feel the need)) Mon May 20 14:33:23 1996
Jason - did you find James Hess' page? I gave you the URL back a ways. I'm not sure if Rick has archived it already or not. If so, just go look for it!! Just wondered what you thought of Jim's writing. Also, I grossly underestimated the overall cost of my WolfMistress outfit. I paid over $700 for the katana alone, so I would say the total cost was closer to $2000. Yes, they are expensive. Especially authentic ones with folded steel blades, but since I'm at a point in life where I am responsible for no one but myself, I can indulge my fantasies, to a point.

Haven't read A Boy and His Dog in years. Will give it a quick scan this evening and reply tomorrow.

Keegan - yes, I knew you are a teacher. I just got a bit prickly with the subject. It just gets to me that we hear all this stuff on the radio, from The Glass Teat, in the newspapers about what's *wrong* with everything, but very few actually step forward to say "Let me help." Being something of a spiritually practical person, it just irks me, is all. As the only child of extremely self-sufficient parents, I learned very early the value of getting up off my dead butt and getting things done, because nobody else was gonna do it!! And in order to get things done, you've gotta get involved!

So much for that. Later.

Jason Real address for any one who wants to attack me in private (yu104681@yorku.ca) Mon May 20 11:56:59 1996
WM don't go we need balance

Kris If you only want to post about HE, then where are the posts in respone to asking about stories? These posts jump from HE to personal because there is more than HE that we can talk about. HE's in 90% of the posts in one form or another any way. Bring up topics if you want.

JT You want to be HE in the worst way, and I mean that literally. 100 times the ego and none of the charm. Like WM said, Grow up. Oh I'm still waiting for an explanation of the 'subtle nuances' about switching Hiesenberg and Shrödinger. My E-mail address is there if you need it

Now that that's out of my system:

Sue tried to E-mail, problem with the server, don't take it personally. WM meant to mention that I'm fighting against the education cuts for University, petitions occasional protest that sort of thing. I tutor my sister and a couple of her friends in math. It slipped my mind. I could be doing more but, you can say that about almost everybody.
Billy Batson is the Alter-ego of captain Marvell a super hero transforms by saying SHAZAM. Important to the meaning or just an inside joke? With Mouse Circus I have no clue.
I posted on saturday about A Boy and his Dog on Saturday I'm bringing it up since almost everyone's back. SEE the post on Sat fo details about my questions.

The rats won? Damn! I bet on the Unicorns.

Your humble servant Jason

WolfMistress (Denying any knowledge of the renegade White Wolf....) Mon May 20 10:03:05 1996
Greetings, all! -- What an interesting stew we have here. Makes me seriously consider deleting this site from my bookmarks...

Sue - Agreement all around. Was in a quarrelsome, pain-wracked mood Friday. Came on a little stronger than maybe necessary. But today isn't much better. Will continue with you elsewhere.

Kristen - It's obvious you don't understand the majority's point of view here, so what's the point? And the melodrama is unnecessary - I'm sure nobody "went broke" spending $25 for a book, for god's sake. To me, that's 'mad money', as it is to a lot of others, so? And since you don't care to join the discussion unless it is strictly about HE, why do you even bother? If we're not good enough for on a regular basis, what do you care how we feel about Edgeworks? Give it up, please. It gets tiresome.

Rick - A thousand thanks for the updates and for posting Harlan's own description of what happened. If possible, my respect & admiration for the man has gone right off the scale. He insisted on trying make good on a commitment *while* suffering a heart attack! Writing right there in his hospital room, IVs and all. If Mr. Ellison is not a remarkable Human Being, I guess there just aren't any.

JT - What gives you the right to get your jollies making fun of *anybody*?!?! I would love to know just who the hell you think you are, with your elitist, pseudo-intellectual, holier-than-thou attitudes. You come across like the schoolyard bully. Grow up, why don't you.

Jason - Any comment on my ideas about "At The Mouse Circus"? That *is* what we were discussing before we were rudely interrrupted by things of negligible importance. They are a ways back in the postings, but I left them Friday. I'd like to add another thing from the story: the kid in the mailbox, Batson, was explaining the esoteric meaning behind SHAZAM, which, in Cabalistic lore, is a real word used in magical rites. Still, I can't say what this search for 'magic' of some kind has to do with it. Comments would be appreciated.

So much for now. Idiotic thought for the day: The rat race is over - the rats won.

Rick (webmaster@harlanellison.com) Sun May 19 21:04:41 1996
Just a quick note: I have spoken to both Harlan and a couple of people at White Wolf (including the copy editor for the series). This is where all of the information I have been giving comes from. Everyone involved is pretty much sick over the typo thing, believe me. Please don't think I'm trying to take the heat off WW by gathering the typos - as J. said, it's quite the opposite...

keegan (back at home (having SURVIVED the Scenic Route)) Sun May 19 21:02:22 1996
Holy Moses! Posts, posts, posts! And don't Webderland got 'em in spades???????

I'm back from the boat, sunburned and thoroughly warm (for once!). Read the first five chapters of "Memos From Purgatory". What a book! I'm sure I'll have lunch with it tomorrow (and talk about annoying typos- "Memos" had a nasty one that made me reread the paragraph like, six times before it made sense and I realized I wasn't seeing exactly what HE intended. Do I care? Nah. It's one Harlan signed).

I agree the typos are annoying as hell. I can live with it though. So far, every Ellison book I own has typos. I just think it's a shame that such profound writing be marred in this fashion. Then again, I've seen editions of Shakespeare with typos so I guess it happens to the best.

Secondly, the only fun thing about stereotypes is fighting them. I think generalities casually made must be recognized for what they are--broad strokes of background rather than fine details of sharp perspective. Some stereotypes are damaging and some are relatively harmless. Go ahead--tell me what you think of when you picture a jazz musician. I'm curious to see what our sterotype is like right now. Are we still raving reefer hounds or are we now all new-agey granola nuts? Whatever you say, I can guarantee that I know jazz musicians who aren't like that--possibly me.

Third, what do I do to make my world a better place (this in response to WM who said her question was ignored. It was unintentional). I TEACH. Yeah, I make a comfortable living from it, but it doesn't diminish the impact of what I do. And yes, Scarlett, it is a very important-dare I say, therapeutic- aspect of education (music that is). If the kids get higher math and science scores than do German students, but have starved souls, then I believe American culture will (and indeed, already does) suffer. If I felt the situation was hopeless, I'd move to Canada for real, not just in my dreams (Jason, I grew up in Maine which for all intents and purposes might as well BE Canada).

JT-stomp all you like. As writing, I can handle it. I hope I never meet you if that's your real-life mode, though (by that, I mean the way you approach and handle people). Read Aesop. I trust you couldn't possibly care less.

I love you all for writing your hearts and minds (even you, JT). All best! (please forgive any typos, I can't proofread this thing right now. My husband and I are quite close to buying a house, and WE need to TALK!)

JT (no White Wolf, no excuses either) Sun May 19 19:44:19 1996
Story's mine and it wouldn't be any fun for me if I didn't make fun of you all.

My apologies for the type-o's, I was in a hurry to reach the solace of happy hour and didn't check my work.

Fear is weakness leaving the mind.

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Sun May 19 14:07:39 1996
OK, Jason, thank you. I realize that I am speaking out of a lot of hurt. The buyer beware cliche has never before applied to anything I purchased that had Harlan's name on it -- even poor Doomsman was better than some peole on their best days -- and I was really disappointed and hurt. So I'm speaking out of a lot of that. Doesn't mean I'm likely to backoff, but at least you've been warned. Second, if you honestly believe WW DIDN'T bypass the editing process, I urge you to check out Rick's growing list of typos. For the record, I would like to add that my favorite typo wasn't there last I checked, even though it's so glaring I've looked 20 times to make sure. In "Walk The High Steel" (I think that's the complete, correct title), the antagonist's name is either Wheeler or Wheeling. I can't decide and neither, apparently, could WW. I've looked several times to make sure we weren't talking about two different characters, but we're not. One guy, two names, for no apparent reason. I'm VERY sorry that I
maintain such horribly high standards as to what does or does not make up an editing process, but as a reader, I do at least like for the characters to have consistent names -- makes it easier to know what the hell's going on.
And again, I'm not railing at Rick, but at a horrible "tragedy."
Just wanted to make that clear to everyone -- I'll growl back off to my lair (sp?) now and growl over my collection of out-dated, out-of-print Ellison in which all the bad guys maintain the same names throughout the story.

Jason (Cutting the tension with a knife) Sun May 19 12:44:16 1996
I have not seen the book yet, so this post can be thrown away 'as he doesn't know what he's talking about' Please put it in the recycling bin, for a cleaner planet and all that. We have not statement from HE or White Wolf, as far I know, Rick? Has either party said anything? Let's not speak for them yet. As for accussing White Wolf by-passed the editing process, for a quick buck, that's just ludicrous. Trying to screw with Ellison's work, is akin to trying to sodomize a rabid pit bull with hemorrhoids (I like that line. It's definetly going into the story I can fit it into. Feel free to use it if you want.) It's just something you don't do. Like Kris said this is a new area for them. New companies make mistakes. Image comics when it first came out couldn't put a comic out on time to save their life. They learned, new creators who couldn't do the job were kicked out. Also the comic that tried to avoid this by coming out on a bi-monthly basis, eventually left the company and it's back issuevalue is very low, if he wasn't self publishing, the title would probably be cancelled. The Book coming out as is was an error, and I seriously doubt that any of following volumes will have any of these problems, not if they want to continue in this field. If this kind of thing happened at one the big publishing companies, it's a different story. They know better, now so does WW.
On the other side I don't what else is in a book besides the words, and whatever it is it can't be more important, but like I said I haven't seen it.
Having the readers mention the typos sends a message about how annoyed they are with them, like Rick said we're not doing their job, we're showing them they're not doing theirs.

Two samrtass clichés before I go; To err is human to forgive divine, (of course we should wait until we know they've learned their lesson. And forgive, doesn't mean forget either) Secondly; Let the buyer beware. (I could have used the original latin version, and been a real smartass, but I couldn't find it in my quotations dictionary.)
Your humble servant Jasin, Jayson? Jaizen? Ah who cares it's not like any one reads this part anyway

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Sun May 19 10:53:18 1996
"Anyone who can appease a man's conscience can take his freedom away from him." -- CancerMan, The X-Files
Does anyone else out there see anything wrong with judging the beauty of a book by the cover art? The volume being beautiful is a total aside to the fact that White Wolf cannot spell material (page 65). I would rather have an ugly dog-earred copy of anything Harlan wrote than this book. (Unfortunately, I didn't stand in Dalton's and flip through it, I bought it unquestioningly, so don't be a smartass and tell me I shouldn't have bought it. Don't be a smartass and tell me I should take it back either. Be a smartass and tell White Wolf they should learn to spell.)
I see a great deal wrong with anyone's describing the book as beautiful, yet the typos in it as tragic. The WORDS are why I bought the damn thing, NOT so I could have somethng pretty on my shelf. Somehow, this whole debate goes against everything I've ever learned... And in all my reading and collecting, I can't find one place where Harlan supports being fooled or lulled by "the cover of the book."
It really is true, happy people, you can't judge a book by its cover. Which hurts me as much as it hurts any of you. I'll admit, maybe I do make a terrible and mean-spirited case for not helping, but as a reader, I have been betrayed by White Wolf. They thought that if they put a pretty cover and Harlan's name on something they hadn't bothered to edit, I wouldn't be mad. Well, I am, but the rest of you don't seem to feel the slightest bit used. I mean, what they did, they did for us, right? Rushing the book to publication by skipping the editing process so we could have it was a good thing, right? Hey, as long as it's Ellison, right?
It has been my impressing that Harlan's partnership with White Wolf was the partnership of an old hand and a sellable (sp?) name with a relatively new and untried company, a partnership that was ultimately supposed to benefit the fans who couldn't find the older works. I love Harlan's writings, really I do, but if this is ok with him, having READERS do the job of his publishing company, then I will continue to scour the used bookstores and resale shops for the older volumes, and neither Harlan nor White Wolf will see a dime. I want my Unca Harlan to fix it -- I want him to get mad and tell White Wolf to take a flying leap if they can't do better than this. I want to know he's fighting for us, for his own integrity and for the words, not just making a buck. And I want him to do what he's been doing for somewhere around 40 years -- make those in the position of responsibility TAKE responsibility and stop shitting on the little people.
(Somewhere up there, that should be "impression" -- I see it, I just can't make my reader let me go back to fix it.)

Rick Sun May 19 00:39:38 1996
Ummmm...of COURSE White Wolf needs to fix their own mistakes. And of course if you are displeased with their efforts, you should let them know.

That does not, however, preclude one from helping make things right. Sure, it's White Wolf's job, and sure, it should have been done right in the first place. But I guarantee you you will not save anyone at White Wolf any work by logging typos. They are going to proofread the sucker, too. What you MIGHT do is pick up one or two they might miss. If that's something that appeals to you, then godspeed. If not, I'm certainly not begging for help and I'm sure the publishing world will survive without your aid. I for one think the volume is beautiful and that White Wolf did an excellent job aside from the typos, and that it is tragic that this kind of mistake was made. I don't think it should be tolerated, but for my part I would rather help correct the situation, THEN worry about whose fault it is...

Kris(ten) L. Homyk (if72@jove.acs.unt.edu) Sun May 19 00:05:05 1996
Me again. First, let me say to all of you who welcomed me...I'm not new here really, but thanks. I just don't post much because so much of the commentary is more personal than harlanish. But thank you for your kindness. Second, I'm going to rant a bit more, because I am SICK AT HEART now.
Rick, dear...I understand what you are attempting to do, really, I do. And it's very cute. BUT and this is a large but, even though I love you Rick and all you do for us...It is NOT, I repeat, NOT my job as a reader to HELP White Wolf fix its mistakes. I handed over $25 -- a good portion of which slips back to White Wolf, and a bit of which slips to the editor who should've caught the mistakes in the beginning. In other words, I've already PAID someone to fix the mistakes that are STILL there -- I ain't doin' it for free...no, actually at a loss, since I also bought the shoddy thing in the beginning.
So I beg you, Rick, I know you're trying to be helpful, but... Look, I don't pretend to be an expert on what Harlan's thinking or what he wants the world to do, but if reading his work taught me anything, it taught me that by putting up with/condoning/ignoring/assisting the stupidity that is already present in the world, we only further it.
I really do not want my Unca Harlan to lose money on the deal, and I know that with all he's gone through recently, this White Wolf thing probably broke his poor little already-broken heart, BUT...there ARE fans out there who send fan letters they don't expect answers to, who don't throw eggs on people's doors and who diligently read the work -- paying large amounts for some of it -- who ask ONLY a decent piece of reading material for their $25.
So while I know it is against Rick's ideals (and loving Rick as I do, this tirade is certainly not directed at him, only at a misguided idea), I hope that those of you who haven't bought the book won't, and that those who have, will not HELP White Wolf do what it should have done months ago, but will certainly take a moment to directly express, through the horrors of snail mail, your displeasure at their handling of our favorite author.
I'm sorry if I've horribly offended anyone, but Harlan taught me that nothing is sacred if it's WRONG. White Wolf's sloppiness is wrong, and expecting poor readers who went broke buying the book to work for free is wrong.
Let White Wolf fix their own mistakes -- or they won't sell books. Harlan can find another publisher, one with more respect.

Anakin Mara O'Hara (Angry White Female Star Wars Fan) Sat May 18 14:08:16 1996
Hello everybody, it's been a long time, but I'm still alive,
guess what, Asimov's Science Fiction and Fact has gone the way of Analog,
they rejected my manuscript! I'm not giving up, even if I have to write till
I'm blue in the face, I will not give into those high and mighty schmucks!
I have been rejected, two times, but this time, I'm going to write something
dastardly dark, because I've had it with being Miss Goody-Two-Shoes. Ciao,
ANAKIN.

Jason (Listening to the Voice in the Garden) Sat May 18 11:51:15 1996
Who wrote the story? JT was it you? Rick? Jim? HE? (unlikely, if it was him I'm sure his name would be there.) Come on now false modesty is irritating, and it's often the egomaniacs who use it. Not bad reminds me of Oh ye of Little Faith. The numbers are annoying though don't you have proper quotation marks on your keyboard? As for the song you forgot to quote the chorus 'God is Good, God is great or something like that. That song irritates the hell out of me. Also don't start the story with condesending remarks. We're all adults here(I believe) and we really should talk to each other as such.

On to other things. I watched A Boy and His Dog last night. Pretty good, I prefer the story because of the first person perspective. A voice over to get the details and colour from Vic would have improved the movie. The changes they made to the Down Under were very good, if a little reminiscent of 1984. The scene where the priest marries Vic to various women as they extract his sperm to impregnate them. The Marching band in white make up playing at what looks like night, is a scene that still makes me shiver. Has any one else seen this film? Comments? Something that ran through my mind as I was watching this film was, they'd never make it today. They'd be too scared of repurcussions from the moral majority. So what do you think of A Boy and his Dog? Is it aanti-women? Does it influence negative attitudes against women, inciting men to rape women as Catherine MacKinnon would have you believe?

WM I didn't vote in the last provincial election, because I didn't want any of them in office. We have a premier in office that a lot of people are unhappy with. The problem is he's doing what he said he was going to do. So unless the protesters are those who voted against him, they really shouldn't be complainging.

Your humble servant Jason.

Rick Fri May 17 20:25:27 1996
I've been typing my ass off. Check the main Webderland page (Home) for a news update from Harlan himself, and info on how YOU can help correct the typos in Edgeworks!

Yes, Harlan, myself, and the folks at White Wolf are every bit as steamed about the errors in the printing as YOU are, and sunufagun this gives you an opportunity to put your money (or your effort) where your mouth is! I'll have a news entry, and maybe some new pictures, up this weekend. Stay tuned.

Sue Luesse (jaluesse@htonline.com) Fri May 17 17:52:27 1996

WolfMistress, you make my point eloquently.

Yes, I know about stereotypes of bikers. But I am still a biker. And everywhere I go on my bike, I disproved the stereotype by being me. (yes, even the biker clubs have told me I 'don't' fit the image). But every person I meet will question the stereotype, because they know of at least one 'biker' who wasn't like 'that' at all.

Yes, I know about stereotypes of Trekkies. But I will never meet 'the command', 'the fleet'. I will meet people. They may join in common cause - but other than the point of common cause, they will all be different. And I will respond to each one of them as a person, not as Trekkie.

You are reason enough for me not to judge all Trek(whatevers) with blanket judgement. You are the first Trek anything I have met to my knowlege. So far, I really like what I see. And you have set the precedent of my expectations. So you do count, as an individual, for your common cause.

My point? The more focus is put on the stereotype (either for or against) the more reality it is invested with. I choose not to invest in any stereotype. No, not every person in every group supports every action or consequence of the group. That's my point. It ALWAYS comes down to the individual, individual choices, individual action.

What I do, I have chosen to do, and accept the consequences for. I choose to deal with here-and-now, the facts as best I can know them. I know many people. I have never met a 'system', only people involved in them. I hope to God it stays that way. I imagine Hell is filled with Governments, Religions, Businesses, and other Demons to torture..

Also, please note I try very hard not to generalize, especially about people. I may blast a system for its stupidity in performance - but not the people in it. I don't say 'never', because I'm sure I've screwed up somewhere along the way. One of things I respect about Jasons posts is the way he nails them down to specifics, and leaves the generalizations that lead to stereotyping out of it. (Maybe you should give me lessons, Jason).

A very GOOD discussion all the way around I think.

Back to Happy Whatever Day! We are going out on bikes into a beautiful evening of dinner and shopping. Doesn't get any better than that.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Fri May 17 17:33:44 1996
Boring. Can we say staid kiddies? Here, chew on this...

Tales of the Monkey Race

³What if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us?
Just a stranger on the bus, trying to make his way home? ²
--Joan Osbourne

The nameıs Dimestore Johnny and Iım an Xıer. I didnıt work. I Œd just sit at this street side Italian brasserie on Bleeker and watch society flush it and everything else down into the sewer. Iıd looked on and complained about it over two finger espressoıs and never did a damn thing about it. I am a cynical, lazy bastard and today I watched the world die; snuffed out like a cheap holiday candle after Michaelmas. So I got a story to tell before all the light fades. Couple of months back me and Jimmy Two-dollar were kicking back, whiling away an idle afternoon in Washington Square park. We were smoking the most cat scooby dooby doo when Jimmy asked me where do the gods go when they die? Donıt remember if I answered him, but I know I was thinking of it. Gods dying. Hhhmmph. More like we stop believing than them dying, but just what does happen when the bowling ball of faith scores a strike on the candlepins of the gods? Where do our gods go when we, their creators give up the faith?

Thatıs our problem we donıt see. Never did, never will. Bitch bitch bitch moan. Standing there when the merciless night hunts down some chaff soul and sucks their lifeblood and wallet from their now cooling fingers. Like lions culling a fat, over-populous herd while we just sit by and watch as if it was T.V.. Today the world died and they cry out ³Why?².

I saw it...

...maybe even caused it in my own way. So Iım writing this down for some cockroach evolutionary out of the future to find and get a good laugh. How we killed ourselves. My eulogy for a tribe that never new itıs own soul.

A jaundiced light couldnıt hide the sickly pallor of this uncaring city. I sat on the cold stone bench waiting for the A-line to come and take me uptown for my portion of this monthıs dole. Fuck the q-tips, man, I got just as much right to the cash as they do. I am due. It wasnıt I who screwed the environment and ran up the damnable N-debt till Chicken Little started running. Itıs not my fault. They poisoned my world. Iı m owed. The thick, fecund air of the tunnels pushed oppressively against my face, heralding an approaching train. Long before I saw its baleful eye glaring out from the darkness, I could hear itıs harbinger rumble. I waited till the roaring entrance of the train had subsided before shuffling onto one of the emptier cars and grabbed an end seat so I could watch the rest of the passengers. I like watching, reminds me of how fucked up Iı m not.

Damn, a bleeding beggar. Probably gonnaı come over and try to squeegee my glasses for some bread. Glaring past the hairy beggar, I scrunched up inside my trench and tried to look like I was thinking Freudıs big thoughts and shouldnıt be bothered. Yet I could see him looking at me, trying to attract my attention. So I stared harder at the ceiling. His weather roughed skin and Jesus beard, with coarse hairs flying out everywhere drew my eyes back to him. A long, unkempt and holed robe covered his withered body. A dopey cap covered his head, only slightly obscuring eyes that would make the sun blink. Deep eyes, dark as the cobalt sky on a moonless eve. Big, reflecting pools that made me feel like I was worth something in this city that had swallowed up me and my pride and slobbered on us like roverıs favorite chew toy. Frigging Feynman, that beggar got under my skin. I didnıt need someone ten times worse off than I, looking at me like that. So I turned my back on him and stared out the trainıs dirty window watching his washed out reflection. It didnıt dull those eyes at all but he tired of me after a few moments and approached a group of street hawks hassling some scared, frail looking q-tip.

³Got a dollar for the down and forgotten lads?²

One of the crowd, a walking monolith swung like a vault door and hissed at the beggar to go sit down and maybe something might come his way that wasnıt going to ride waves of pain. It seemed that the crazy beggar didnı t hear Œcause he shuffled right up to this land giant and tugged on her faded jeans. The old man asked ³Got a dollar, big lady, Got a buck for dear old dad²? The girl was huge, easily eclipsing the tiny, stooped man, but when he turned those pools of ageless night onto her she seemed to be naught but a frail girl, lost in this big city. You could see her falter under his gaze. Before he could follow up his advantage one of her pack, a cruel, rat eyed lad spoke up. ³What are you afraid of some dirty old homeless street weed²? Before the last syllable of his words had settled Mad Mary puffed up like a blowmonkey on fermented bananas and shoved the little man hard, sending him careening to the train floor. For the first time the man spoke, in a voice that was as old and deep as his eyes and belied the frail body it issued from. ³Names Penny-christ, little lady and you should learn some manners. You wonıt be on top all your days. And when your down here where I am, youıll hope for the sweet touch of mercy. Mark my words Mad Mary.²

That scared me. Those words, that voice, it shouldnıt have been coming from such a pathetic looking old dude. It was a voice for Olympus or the Heavens; not the gutters of Gotham. Something was wrong but I wasnıt gonnaı get involved and get my ass skinned for some ratty beggar. Just sit here and stay quite. Maybe theyıll be happy with the q-tip and the self named Penny-christ and not bother me before I can get off this fucken chaos train. I caught a glint of steely white flash in the window heart froze solid. While Mad Mary had been trading barbs with Penny-christ the rest of the street hawks had been going at the q-tip. Then when Mad Mary went to shut up the beggar for good, her little lemmings turned to watch. The q-tip, scared in a big way pulled the meanest damn hand canon out of his mangy, wrinkled coat and leveled it at the back of Mad Mary.

I swear time stopped then, cause everything went in slow-mo and all at once everything was sort of translucent. it was just like T.V. I could see up and down the train. Except that instead of seeing the front of the train, there wallowed a hungry darkness sweeping in like Edmund Fitzgerald's northeaster. Turning from that stygian night I look backwards and I could see myself getting on the train, and the beggar getting on and some other folks. All overlapped in ghostly de ja-vu. I grew cold as the lonely night. The q-tipıs eyes got real big and his hands were shaking so much I thought heıd drop his piece. He didnıt and Mad Mary reached down to squash that old beggar dude like a cockroach. The rat eyed lad caught the glint of the gun too and started to turn. To late, the q-tip, scarred shitless and way out of his league tightened his finger and closed his eyes.

I too closed my eyes praying in my hypocritical way that I was dreaming. Bang, Bang, Bang, bang, like the tolling of St. Peterıs bell on a chilly autumn afternoon. Then a decided thump and finally nothing but ageless silence. I could smell the fresh electric tang of burning metal and smoke fading, but I was too scared to open my eyes. The seconds turned to minutes and the minutes to hours. The trained rushed on and on and on. The silence got so heavy it started to smother me. I had to look. To see.

When I did, I cried. Not for myself, but for us. For there on the floor, amidst a kneeling, repentant Mary and a wide eyed Judas q-tip whose Sword of Damocles hung limply in his hand, lay the crazy old man. With four red splotched holes in his chest. Only now he didnıt look pitiful, dirty and old. He looked dead. Dead like the empty night. Then I knew where the gods go when we stopped believing. To the streets. To the streets, like every other forgotten, misplaced and soiled soul in this heartless cityıs maw. To walk and mumble and live on alone in cardboard boxes. To beg for a piece of candied humanity from the monkey-race that swings through the streets, never seeing the fallen, broken dreams of ages past. As this train rushes on into the darkness of a lost mind, I can feel it getting colder, Now there is not any light at all. Not from the train, the old man or in my eyes. For the old guy died and with him so did all the light. If I was somewhere above. There in the streets. I know if I looked up, Iıd see the stars going out, the moon fade, and hope die in an angry, swirling, darkness that ate the world and announced the fall of our god. Whom we had killed not once but twice.

WolfMistress (Let's hear it for gloom & doom....) Fri May 17 16:37:39 1996
Well, for heaven's sake! Like a few rotten people can't make it bad for everyone? Like *everyone in the Church agreed with Tomas de Torquemada? Like every German was a Nazi and agreed with Hitler's Final Solution. Like all Hell's Angels are hell-raisers?!

How about the stereotype of bikers, Sue? You know about that better than I do, to the point where you stated you made a point of not having any Harley-Davidson *anything* around, etc., etc.

What I'm talking about is stereotypes: any kind of lumping all of us together behind what a few do. Star Trek has become such an American icon (or whatever the hell), that it's fans have been stereotyped by those who act like idiots! Jason mentioned something about wearing a Starfleet uniform on jury duty -- that's the kind of stuff I mean. The silly, simple-minded, no-life-at-all types who make people think all of us are like that.

I will not be stereotyped!!! Not now; not ever. I am me, and I joined Trek for a reason, what was (and still is) a *damned* good reason - to do something about the ideal instead of offering a lot of pointless lip service to it. Everybody talks; nobody *does* anything. I back up my words with actions. If that's too hard to take, then so be it.

Just like some time back on this very Board -- everybody got into a snit about the school system, and what they are, or are not, teaching the kids these days. I asked simple questions - is anybody volunteering to tutor kids having a hard time? Is anyone working the neighborhood to see if things can be presented to the school boards to change the curricula?? I didn't get one word in response. The questions were ignored. So I don't want to hear about the ineffectiveness of groups or anything else. Yeah, individuals make a difference -- by getting together with those of like mind and working for change.

Like my Dad always said: "If you don't vote, you've got no right to complain." My sentiments exactly. If you're not doing something to change the problem, then you're part of it, period.

Sue Luesse (In Fear of the K Mart) Fri May 17 14:40:52 1996

Had a long post all set to go (with back-up from the heavenly host) and got a post error message. So here I go again, and you can only wonder waht you missed/were spared.

A blurb on defending ones position. I have noticed that physically disabled people make a big deal out of how it is "only their body that is different - their minds are what make them human". I am often condemned for being 'insensitive' when I ask it that means people with mental disabilities are fair game since they are not human by that definition. Seems there is a pecking order even among those who lose Society's Big Game. Kind of a consolation round. Best of the worst..

I'm confused about the Trekky vs. Trekker thing. I wear a 'costume' (described as colorful to crazy, depending on the fashion critic) every day, everywhere I go. So is there some particular significance to which costume? Is it how many others wear thematicly related costumes? Is it the time/place a costume is worn? Am I a Trekky or a Trekker? (and I bet both would agree I'm niether).

And as for justifying ANY GROUP of people with 'good deeds' - they are all bell curves anchored at either end by Good and Bad with Most somewhere in betwen. The Nazis built the Autobahn system in Europe. Hells Angels ride escort for benefit marathons. The One True Church gave us the Inquisition and the Crusades. Our local KKK gives schoolchidren free copies of the Constitution. SO WHAT!

It is ALWAYS individuals. That's what groups are, lots of individuals. An assembly line of nobodies trying to produce a something that has as much quality as each puts into their own 'little screw to tighten'.

For me, it is making 'a big deal out of nothing' when my life is obstructed rather than enhanced. Like challenging a school policy of promoting Christmas that caused my child to be sent home from Kindergarden for the crime of insisting there is NO SANTA, because her parents wouldn't lie to her and they said so.

That's all I can do. I'm not rich, not famous, and have no power except being a GodahMighty pain in the butt about those 'petty' things (and in the last analysis, they will concede those petty things to me just to shut me up). That's doing my part. I don't think I'm obliged to accomplish outside my league - and being insignificant means I only need to do my little bit. We decided long ago that there was damn little celebration sanctioned by society (probably for lack of good things to celebrate), and created our own family holiday - Cosmic Whatever Day - which we celebrate whenever we feel the urge to share a joy. Kids loved it. They got lots of extra goodies, while their friends composed long lists and waited for Birthday or Christmas.

So here I am on Webdrland, nary a word said about HE, but volumes said about the themes HE presents, thinking "Whatever".

And then smiling to myself.. One Day the Universe got a wicked grin, and farted in this general direction - and here I am..

Happy Cosmic Whatever Day! Go celebrate. I am.

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress (Encouraging minors to drink Strange Wine....) Fri May 17 14:04:14 1996
Sorry for so many posts in a row, but *Jason* wanted to find Jim Hess' Cinematic Voyeur. It is found at:

http://www.smartlink.net/~olcapss/buzz1.html

There are 9 issues of the fascinating Online Comic Buzz. You gotta read it! Mr. Hess is definitely of the Ellisonian Ilk. (sounds like something really weird, doesn't it)?

WolfMistress (Cleaning up after A Boy and His Dog....) Fri May 17 11:59:12 1996
Forgot to tell you -- went to favorite bookseller last night & traded $23 & change (includes tax) for Edgeworks, Vol 1. A really beautiful book! Nicely packaged, etc. However, the typos mar what would otherwise be a really exquisite printing! I can't believe HE would allow something like this to see print. Did he see dailies (whatever they call the pre-print edition of books)??? There are 3 or 4 in his introduction alone.

Of course, none of this takes away from the stories themselves, but it is a little glitch when you're reading along and find one. Weird. See ya.

WolfMistress (rwhiteanderson@kraft.com) Fri May 17 11:49:04 1996
Hi, All! - Just giving real address in case someone wants to communicate privately. Am open to all e-mail that comes my way.

Greeting to Scarlett and Joel; you've come to the right place. Come on in, take a seat, kick your shoes off - we're all Family here....

Jason - a quick answer to your question about "At The Mouse Circus". That one throws me, too. Since the story was written in 1971, I was trying to put it into social context, and all I could come up with is as follows: The mention of Camelot brought to mind what everyone was calling the Kennedy administration after the assasination; this little Golden Time for America. Historical accuracy had nothing to do with the shockwave the assassination itself caused. So maybe the Camelot image has something to do with it. The other allusion was to calling the Cadillac a 'Hog'. During the 70s, Cadillac Eldorados were the car of choice for pimps and players, and was referred to as a 'Hog' by these people. I know this from spending time on the streets of Detroit in those days, during the exceedingly wild years of my marriage. Most of these pimps and players were Black, if that has anything to do with the story. I just don't know. I've tried to consider it from a psychological point of view, but all I get from it is hopelessness, and a sense of abandonment.

If this sounds like anything viable, please comment as necessary. Will be back later. Thanks, all.

Scarlett (kagricola@amhs.com) Fri May 17 11:26:15 1996
Regarding "In Fear of K", you can find that story in one of Ellison's finest collections (sez me), Strange Wine. I think it is still out of print, but well worth scouring used bookstores and libraries for. Strange Wine is the collection that got me hooked.

Keegan - Bless you for educating young people. I have the highest respect for teachers, particularly teachers of language and the arts. Art and music and literature feed the soul like nothing else. Too often education becomes so narrow in scope that it neglects to speak to students as human beings and nurture their spirits. (Forgive me if I seem a little down on the educational system, but here in California, graduates of most public high schools are very lucky if they're reading at an eighth-grade level. You can be sure THEY'VE never heard of Harlan Ellison...)

Jason - You hit the nail right on the head, I'm afraid. "Scarlett" IS a reference to Katie Scarlett O'Hara. I was so dubbed back in high school because of a certain flamboyance and other personality traits I won't go into here. The nickname is doubly significant because I'm a redhead.

-- Scarlett

keegan Thu May 16 21:14:45 1996
Don't run away Joel!!! Honest mistakes honestly admitted doesn't make a crime of some sort. Welcome aboard! Don't worry. We bark loudly but the bite is relatively toothless.

Joel W. Tscherne (calvin@apk.net) Thu May 16 21:02:54 1996
I totally screwed up. I just discovered the book has 600 pages. I missed the point that each book in the volume is individually paged.

I don't know what I can do, but apologize to White Wolf for my mistake. If I could remove the comments I would.

I'll be quiet now. Sorry.

Jason (On Probation for selling Strange Wine to minors) Thu May 16 20:40:17 1996
Saw on the news today, that the Make A Wish Foundation was planning to grant 17 year old boy his wish of hunting down a Kodiak bear and mounting its head up on his wall. That would be person #53,589 that makes me wish I was on another planet. (I know that's a small number, I'm trying to be positive)

WM just read your second post, and I fell I should say something. I enjoy Star Trek. I can if not actually name the specific episode of STNG, then at least I can sum up the plot within 90 seconds of seeing the episode, at any point during the program. When it comes right down to it I am a trekker. I've known several trekkies and that experience has soured my taste for the fandom experience with that show. It is a television show, a very good one, but it has its place. Dressing up for conventions or special events is one thing, wearing a Starfleet uniform for jury duty is something else.

As for conventions, like I said, the only ones who dress up are the ones who go to the Star Trek conventions. I think it is a cultural thing, we don't have many exhibitionistic tendencies, it's too cold. (Ba dum bum) Not true, we have lovely weather up here during the summers which can get quite hot. (A cousin of a friend of mine came up here for summer vacation in July and he brought a parka! Our summer temperatures do reach into the high thirties) {As for a lack of Exhibitionism I don't know about that either, twice we've had people having sex in front of open window during a ball game at Skydome.} Then again the U.S. cons are probably bigger, more people means more events like costume . BTW did you make your katana, I've be saving up for a real one for five years now.

Welcome aboard Scarlett, I will do my best to avoid all those Gone with the Wind jokes that are screaming to get out. Have never heard of In fear of K where can you find it?

It's kittens Wolfmistress, five of them, I've been pushing for names like Sher Khan, Cheshire, Maggie, Baskerville (for irony) and Harlan, {Harley actually since it's a girl, little scrapper fought hard for her life, and the name fits, especially when you consider she's the runt of the litter.} My sister wants to name them Lucky and Mittens, and stuff like that. It's sad.
Your humble (and smiling) servant Takuya Tomohito, Daimyo of the new Nihon Republic (My own RPG character)

Joel W. Tscherne (calvin@apk.net) Thu May 16 20:32:35 1996
Make that 'SHOULDN'T pick nits' (before someone chooses to pick them with me)

Joel W. Tscherne (calvin@apk.net) Thu May 16 20:31:00 1996
I guess the people at White Wolf aren't good at counting. The back of the book indicates the book is 600 pages while there are actually only 400 pages in the book!
I know we probably should pick nits, but these are the kind of 'little' things that they are supposed to catch. Kris mentioned a number of other editing problems, so I hope they will work a little harder at it in the future.

Otherwise, I'm really looking forward to reading it!

(This is my first comment, so please go easy if you disagree with me!)

keegan (@ omigodamigladthat's over) Thu May 16 20:20:10 1996
Ohhh, Webderland, support group supreme, intelligence adrift in a sea of electronic mirrors of organic ignorance---all I can say is that I've lived a lifetime in the past four hours and the stories will take forever to write. The concert was a joy and a gem. As I told the congratulateers tonight: the kids made the music. I just did the worrying.

Yup, Scarlett, Kris or whatever your chosen moniker of the day is, I am a musician. A singer. A jazz singer. But tonight, I was very proud to be the Music Teacher.

Don't know the story to which you referred ("In Fear of K") but I will search it down. Could you provide a synopsis here, or is that too crazy? Whatever. Do what you like.

I'm hittin' the boat and the piña coladas mañana. Check ya next week!

Formerly Another "Kris", Henceforward "Scarlett" (kagricola@amhs.com) Thu May 16 17:52:37 1996
Okay, I have been lurking in the shadows, periodically perusing the (lively, intelligent, stimulating) discourse of you Ellisonphiles and, if I may, Id like to solicit your insight into one of my favorite Ellison stories; "In Fear of K". I have always loved that story and been strangely moved by it, but even after force-feeding it to several friends whom I thought could really sink their teeth into it, I've yet to have a satisfying analytical discussion of what "K" really is. Any takers?

A couple of other things: I thought I read somewhere in Webderland that Ellison was going to be in Thousand Oaks. I can't seem to find the listing now. Was that appearance cancelled? I thought it was scheduled for AFTER the Chicago Comicon, but I could be mistaken. (I am in California, Harlan Ellison's home state -- You will be pleased to know that his work is not nearly so difficult to locate here. Anyone interested in search services?) Perhaps you'd know, Rick.

Keegan - I gather you're a musician. Jazz? I'm curious... or nosey... take your pick.

Sue - Thanks again for your e-mail. It thoroughly tickled me and may be largely responsible for my sudden desire to actively post.

WolfMistress - You don't know me from Adam, and this may or may not mean anything to you, but hang in there. The Universe ultimately provides us with what we need. I needed to express my concern. Perhaps that means you needed to be aware of it.

-- Scarlett
"Color is its own reward" - Neil Finn

Jason (Selling Strange Wine to minors [I'm a bad boy]) Thu May 16 16:52:52 1996
Strange thought that pops up in my head #546: Harlan Ellison going on Celebrity Jeopardy. I can see Alex Trebek going up to him for the interview portion, he asks HE a stupid question, it gets messy.
WM sorry for getting the two groups mixed up.
Rick I'll try and get the Rant to you this weekend, my word processor is a little screwed up at the moment.
Am I the only one having trouble finding Jim's Cinematic Voyeur Website?
Don't worry Keegan, we Canadians are used to the fact that 99% of the people south of our border have no clue to fact that there is a distinct country above them, nor do they know anything about said country, except for stereotypes that are as out of date as the London fog.
Still waiting for Edgeworks, errors and all. As another possible topic for discussion, I ask again, Anybody have a clue to At The Mouse Circus?
Your humble servant Jason

WolfMistress (Sharpening your Dreams With Sharp Teeth....) Thu May 16 16:47:35 1996
Jason - profound apologies for coming on so strong. It has been a hellfire & brimstone week here for me, and that is no reason to take it out on friends, Seen or Unseen.

It's just that the subject of Trek and Trekkers has been getting shit for years because of the actions of a relative few in fandom, and most of us who helped start Starfleet International really don't deserve the constant ridicule and put-downs. I've been a Trekker for 30 years this September, and I'm damned proud of some of the work Trek fandom has done to carry on the ideal totally unseen to the public at large.

As for costumes - well, I don't know anything about Canadian conventions and/or fans, but the 'garb' is a major, integral part of US con-going. The International Costumers Guild is a major force in conventions (especially WorldCon), and is a major supplier of costumes used in Hollyweird in movies, etc. One of the awards I received, "The Edith Head Award", is an actual, solidly-backed award given to the best beginner costumer at any major SF con in the country. Designing and making the costumes is a part of the magic, and can get quite expensive if you want to do it right. My whole 'WolfMistress' outfit, including over-robe and "katana" sword, cost well over $1000 for materials, etc. This is *not* counting the 8 months it took me to sew the pearl beads into the design on the velvet robe, which was fully lined in silver-grey jacquard silk.

After years of being The WolfMistress in D&D games, I thought I'd bring her to life (in a way). Which is what fantasy is all about.

If it is a cultural thing about Canadian cons, that there are no costume competitions or the "Masquerade" as it is called at some conventions, I think you're missing something that can be a lot of fun. But since I have never been to a Canadian con, I don't want to be disparaging. I have no information, so it's kind of hard to say.

Interesting, the girl on the bus - African-American, and she's been in Canada all her life??? Are you sure she wasn't a Pod Person? The vanguard of an alien invasion? The irony of the "African-American" thing was made crystal clear to me when I was going to grad school.

There were a number of students from African countries - Kenya, Nigeria, even a Zulu who was his particular clan's 'Warrior-Guardian' (a position that is passed down through the same family to eldest male until it dies out). Native Africans could not understand why American Blacks wanted to call themselves "African-Americans", because to them, we were simply Americans! They said that our bloodlines were so diluted and we had been gone for so many generations, that we had no right to call ourselves Africans anymore! Made sense to me....

My Mom is first generation American. Both her parents came from 'the old country', as she says. My paternal grandmother was full-blooded Choctaw. I'd look like a real idiot calling myself African-American! Bullpucky! So there! :-) (smile, Jason, or we'll send the Thought Police to harass your new kitten...)

keegan (For the Greater Good) Thu May 16 14:18:51 1996
I'm under big stress so I'll make this short.

Jason- Why won't African-American work in Canada? Last time I heard, y'all were NORTH Americans (c'mon, giggle. I'm joshin' ya).

WolfMistress-Thanks for the clarification. I actually know some members of Star Fleet here and they do charitable work as well. Guess "trekkies" (not to be confused with "Trekkers" for sure) are just more visible and thus an easier target. I'll lay my arms aside now.

Sue---AAAAAAARRRRGH!! Didn't I tell ya I'd be a mess this week? Getting to ya here instead of the ol' email box 'cause as soon as I post this, I'm taking a MAJOR power nap. At about 7:30 pm, the "big gig" will be over, all the little rugrats will have returned to their homes and *I* should revert to some semblance of sanity. Music ain't fluff--it's damn hard work.

Take care all.

WolfMistress (Haunting your Dreams With Sharp Teeth....) Thu May 16 13:37:17 1996
You know, I'm getting really tired of people blasting Trekkers (as opposed to *Trekkies*) all the time. As a charter member of StarFleet International, the world-wide Star Trek Fan Association, I resent the attitude that we're *all* some sort of insane perverts!

Each chapter around the world takes the name of a starship, any class, and the members are the crewmembers. Others, like me, prefer to simply remain attached to StarFleet Command. Over the past 25 years and more, these chapters have held food drives for low-income families, have joined to sandbag flooding rivers, have donated thousands of hours as volunteers in hospitals, nursing homes, or food kitchens. We have given blood, held fun-raisers for United Way and any other decent charity you can name. We have delivered Meals on Wheels to the elderly, and served as companions to those in nursing homes.

True Trekkers believe in the ideal that Trek originally stood for -- helping ourselves along, together, as One Race, with One Vision of Unity. If there is something wrong with this, then I would personally appreciate it if whomever disagrees with it keeps it to themselves. I have done more good through Starfleet International for more people than I could have ever done on my own. So, I've had it with the slamming, all right?

It's bad enough to be talked to like I'm an idiot half the morning without seeing people insulting something they know very little about!

Rick (webmaster@harlanellison.com) Thu May 16 13:11:39 1996
The http://www.snider.net/text link will not work after my next update. I apparently forgot to put an index.html in that directory. However, every file in there can be accessed from within Webderland. Most of the links are under that "Rants" button at the top of the page, under "Old Rants and Other Miscellania"...

I have also been asked to pass on that I was only partially right about the experiment I dimly remembered concerning "Soft Monkey". The babies sought solace with the soft mother, but an orangutan mother deprived of her child would also nurture a "soft" plush stuffed replacement as if it were her own child.

Continuing on Edgeworks, PLEASE send any typos you find to me, and I *guarantee* they will be passed on to the Edgeworks copy editor to be fixed in the next printing.

Sue Luesse (Gofer to the Gully of Tiger,Tiger) Thu May 16 12:42:24 1996

"My name is Gully Foyle, and Terra is my nation.
Deep space is my dwelling place, and death my destination."
-Alfred Bester, 'Tiger, Tiger' (from the poem by William Blake)
(re-released as The Stars My Destination) rumored to be re-released soon..

So I says ta him "You're totally outta it", an he goes "Yeah" like it was good, so THEN - this is the best part - *I* says... What?... Where??... Oh! Lemme get back ta ya (click).
"May I help you,sir?"
"Harlem Ellison? Oh (snicker) you mean RALPH Ellsion FROM Harlem.."
So like I was sayin, there he was, some kind a writer or sumptin, all fulla hisself like HE was a SOMEBODY...

I have a theory that I inherited from a dying synapse. Goes like this. All the Holy people know the body is the Temple of God. Jim McConnell proved memory is stored throughout the body. Colors absorb and reflect light diferentially. You gotta suffer to sing the Blues. Money is the root of all evil.
Knead gently, and let stand until it doubles in size.
Result - The superior race is obese (more God in a bigger temple, and more space to store wisdom), black (because they absorb more of the light), in pain (any sort will do), and live in poverty.

So my ambition in life should be to become a fat, black, baglady artist. And now I can envy keegan for being accused of being closer to that goal than I am, and apply the 'fill in the blank' standard process of bigotry. (not today keegan - too tired and sore from that synaptic excess, and busy grieving to be any good or anything)

It begins with "You're SO interesting", rolls downhill into "You are a colorful character", slams into "You're crazy", and dead ends in "You need help. You're dangerous." Ironic - the process of hypocracy and prejudice is an equal opportunity kind o' thing, and darn near everyone fills in the blank at some time, and is put on the line ar others.

So how about those Maple Leafs, Jason? What's the body count on Webderland, Rick? And what the hell! We all have bruising encounters with reality and the opposing reaction of delusion. And we yell. My Grandma, wise woman - and large - once said "Sue may suffer much, but never silently". Truer words never spoken. And like the toddlers who fall and 'ouchie' and yell - we pause for breath and look around to see who's taking notice - and if no one is, we get up and go on with our playing.

I learn a lot from kids. They haven't learned not to see yet, and haven't been trained to not say it yet either.

Real life. My nephew is doing great after extensive surgery, and is 'out of the woods'. One less stressor. My oldest daughter dropped by for yet another installment payment on her upcoming wedding. One more stressor. Guess there is a balance to life.

Try High - Fly Stright - Drive Safe

Jason (Drunk on Strange Wine) Thu May 16 12:34:29 1996
You're not serious are you Jim? It's amazing, everyday you come across something that makes you realise you've been underestimating the taste of the general public. An example, (which in a strange case of synchronicity ties in with the race topic which has popped up here.) I was coming home on the bus and overheard a conversation, where a young woman late-teens early-twenties proclaimed that she was not black, but african-american, the person she was talking to, who was smarter than her, though that doesn't neccessarily mean much, asked how long she had lived here. The young woman who still didn't get it said 'all my life' at which point, her companion said softly and with more tact than would have used on the little twerp, that we are in Canada, and therefor the p.c. term would be african-canadian. An prime example of someone who doesn't think. On a side note African-canadian hasn't really caught on here partly because it doesn't have that cool alliteration thing going for it, and also because a large portion of the black population around here are jamaican. As for myself my roots are half Japanese, half english. I looked oriental and for a long time sounded very british. Which led to many questions from the transparent yet semi-tactful, 'Where were you born?', to the blunt 'What are you?' After I got my citizenship, I was able to answer 'What are you?' with 'I'm Canadian.' (Oh the joy of watching the fustration appear on the faces of those peons, as they realised that was all they were going to get from me!)

Costumes at Comic conventions, they do happen, I've seen pictures of cons in the comic guide I buy, where there are plently of Fanboys in costume. Fanboy is the comic genre version of Trekkers only usually not as obssesive and not as universal. (Trivial fact. The term Fanboy originated in a once hugely popular comic book called Lobo. Ironically enough Fanboy was meant to be (and still is) a derogatory term, people rarely call themselves Fanboys, but are always ready to call someone else a Fanboy, not as an insult, but more in the nature of gentle mocking. Insults are usually in the form of 'Comic' plus a derogatory term of choice, typically geek or freak. I myself have not seen people dress up to go to convention, but that's probably a cultural thing. Dressing up when it isn't required is not something we usuaslly do. (Trekkers are the exception they do anything.) I personally prefer Daniel White for the greater good, over Delicate Terrors, but the most powerful racial based stories for me are, From Alabamy With Hate, and A Prayer For No-one's Enemy.
Thoughts anybody?
Your humble servant Jason

Sorry, but that's it!

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