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The Ellison Bulletin Board

Comments Archive - 08/28/96 to 12/13/96

Todd Mason
- Friday, December 13, 1996 at 12:04:51 (CST)

Here's a more coherent version of that first clause: Well...I thought I was always clearly criticising only those Boomers who would like us to believe their excrement doesn't reek, and enjoy imparting that through denigrating their juniors

Todd Mason
- Friday, December 13, 1996 at 12:03:10 (CST)

Well...I thought I was always clearly criticising only those Boomers who are would like us to believe their excrement doesn't reek, and imparting that through denigrating their juniors...if y'all think that describes ALL Boomers, I'll have to disagree, albeit with a grin...J. Michael S. and GRR Martin (both deeply involved, like Ellison, with THE TWILIGHT ZONE revival, perhaps oddly coincidentally) were the specific, and cited, perps.... Keegan: Yeah, the current plethora of shallow actors jumping into Scientology (Cruise, Travolta, Alley, et al.) had a bit of a jazz antecedent...which helps to explain Corea and Clarke (I don't remember if Konitz is as well) being on the hilariously awful "soundtrack album" Bridge Publications released with the book publication of BATTLEFIELD EARTH...

Sue Luesse
Passion? I thought that was Easter, not Christmas.. - Friday, December 13, 1996 at 10:14:20 (CST)

Good thought *ZACK* - though as usual, my first reaction is a question, rather than _the_ answer.. Passion and emotion are so often used interchangeably, that I begin to wonder why we need two words.. Can any emotion felt intensely enough be passion? I'd certainly agree that passion seems to generate amazing creativity and thought (not to mention perseverance).. But is it the same thing as emotion, or something else that generates intense emotion? *TODD*, bubie, sweetie, dah-link, kiss-kiss, moo-moo.. You really need to be a tad more specific with your rants - at least until you've given us a chance to get to know you, and put them into a context.. It was entirely unclear that it was aimed at a particular person, and not an entire generation.. And yes, this is a HE Board, so expect people to get testy when broad brushes slop crap all over them.. And expect them to be sensitive to stereotypes, along with all the other BS shoved at us daily (we wouldn't be very good HE fans if we supported that garbage in defiance of all HE has written and done to educate us).. And, yes it was a misunderstanding - and I'm pretty sure we all caught that when you finally clarified.. Hope this clarifies the meaning of my last post, when I was happy to ditch the dispute.. GEEZ! Feel like I'm being buried in nits picked.. Anyone know of a recylcer that pays for bulk used picked nits? Could be a nice second income in it.. A little extra Christmas cash, at the least.. Always nice to find the 'up' side, isn't it?? Wonder how many nits there are to the pound?? Maybe I'll keep the day job for a while.. *ALL* Doc wishes you all a Happy Holidays, and has given me his new, temporary, c/o snail mail address. Drop me a line if you would like it. I am somewhat at a loss with the current jazz thread. I listen well.. Find myself feeling strangely sympathetic to *BARNEY* as I struggle place all the names.. How's it coming with the Name Game?? And if it isn't too much trouble, how about a re-cap on who was identified, and who is still waiting for someone to educate us?? Been thinking about what you posted on Hal Holbrook/Mark Twain (takes me a while, doesn't it??), and have to say that bringing the immediacy of Twains genius in the context of his person to new generations is certainly a selfless creative act by Holbrook, and worthy of the high praise it has earned him. Takes one to know one?? What would I know.. I best get back to my real life - the one where I find options to sanity oddly alluring.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 20:19:48 (CST)

tee-hee, Todd! My mentor thinks that I describe my piano skills very well: "I'm a GREAT terrible pianist". He's taken that phrase to describe his own ability at the board. BTW, I didn't know Konitz was a Scientologist. Go figure!

Todd Mason
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 19:03:35 (CST)

Alas, Keegan, I've moved from DC (actually Arlington) to Philadelphia...never got over to One Step Down, either (but did see Braxton once at the late, lamented dc space), and only had one Horrible experience with Blues Alley, so never went back (a good concert, Albert King and Koko Taylor and their bands, that the club and its patrons did everything they could to ruin). But thanks for the invite! Maybe someday. Circle was a hell of band, warn't it? They were Very young and Pensive, but their talent was very much in evidence...if I was a controversialist, I might make some crack about how it's too bad that Corea (and Clarke and Konitz and) fell under the sway of L. Ron Hubbard's cult, but then Renee the Dominatrix of the Lupine would get mad at me again. (BTW, that wasn't an insult or a carp, but a rib...and my previous statements included some disagreement and mild criticism rather than carping...or so I say.) Oh, yes: I'm a mediocre singer, a lousy trombonist, an incompetent percussionist, and been known to make attempts at notes on other instruments. Hey, Zack--I always thought of THE PRISONER as surreal, sometimes very impressively so, indeed. In fact, the average quality of the fantastic-leaning/surreal spy shows of the '60s was pretty high, compared to most other genres...SECRET AGENT was about as good, though fairly realistic, THE AVENGERS, MAN FROM UNCLE (with the two Ellison scripts), MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE (early on, anyway), I SPY (even with its dishonest nationalism at times), and of course GET SMART! are a pretty impressive stack compared to a similar list of SF or family saga or even police procedural shows...

Zack <handlen@lamere.net>
Lyman, Maine U.S. of A. - Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 16:48:08 (CST)

Here's a thought: it is only when we are most angry and reactive in our writings that we are the most passionate. (Grammatically correct? Oops, sorry, forgot I was on a HE website :) As most of us know, being HE fans and all, our demi-god spends maybe a quarter of his time being righteously pissed off about something. (Weren't those rants on the Sci-Fi channel just beautiful?) And that's great; because of the way he his, HE always sounds like the most intelligent man alive, even when he's bitching. Unfortunately, the rest of us generally end up sound like a bunch of two-bit Morton Downey Jr.'s whenever we raise our voices a decibel or so. But when we're able to write down our thoughts, to transmute our passions from electric signals into wood pulp, we become third-rate philosophers, ranters, believers in the power of the phrase. Hell, I'd rather be bitched out on the web then have to face some moron screaming at my face in the Quicky-Mart down the block. Anyway, all I'm saying is that anger's great if put to the right things. And if you can't stand the heat, move to Alaska. (Yeah, I know, I probably opening myself up to about a million sarcastic replies: cool!) By the way, "The Prisoner" was the best SciFi/action/intrigue/whatever the hell it was show on television ever. Be seeing you.

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Planting Land Mines Outside The Life Hutch...., - Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 15:15:37 (CST)

What the hell is it? The weather? The season? Just mention something and everybody gets bitchy! Not just here, all over the lists/comments/boards around the Web. Everybody's carping at each other. Maybe I'll go back into hiding -- safer that way!

keegan
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 13:37:32 (CST)

Hey, Todd! Great to hear jazz stories! Are you a player? Next time I'm in DC ( I go there frequently to see my inlaws and my best friend) we should meet at Blues Alley. I'll be dragging my husband along! Anthony Braxton, BTW, was on the first jazz record I ever owned: "Circulus" by the Circle Quartet (Chick Corea, Dave Holland, Braxton, and Barry Altschul). It wasn't exactly "swingin'", but I was fascinated with the sounds anyway. Carry on, all!

Todd Mason
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 12:09:33 (CST)

Hmm. Seems like everyone except Keegan is misunderstanding what I was saying about smug Boomers--that it's they (or, in this case, J Michael of BABYLON 5), not I, who seem to be taking "generational divide" as a meaningful descriptive term, with the fantasy that any given generation is vastly more politically/socially/culturally aware than any other--claims otherwise are the kind of Mad Av-style hype that some of you are particularly annoyed by. Oh well. To paraphrase Chairman Algis, next time I'll try to take the marbles out of my mouth. Keegan--well, I was present at the first Thelonious Monk Memorial Concert at the DAR's Constitution Hall in DC in 1987. The irony of having the concert at Constitution Hall was not lost on me, give how the Daughters of the American Revolution wouldn't let Marian Anderson sing there back in the '40s...because she was (sic) "colored". The two guys who designed the program couldn't convince their girlfriends to accompany them (!), so they gave their passes to friendly acquaintance me and the jazz prof at our mutual U. Highlights of the concert included the cutting contest between Dizzy Gillespie and Michael Amram (trumpet versus French horn and then muted trumpet vs. pennywhistle--Gillespie won, unsurprisingly, but Amram gave him a run) and Urszula Dudziak's solo-with-phased-recorder acapella performance. The passes were good for the reception afterward, so that I was able to literally bump into Gerry Mulligan (I knew his reputation for not enjoying gushing fans, but it would've been difficult for me not to gush even if we hadn't backed into one another at a buffet table...one turns around to apologize and Gerry Mulligan is doing the same. Woof. I also met Amram (a perfect gentleman), Dudziak (who was shockingly ignored by most of the crowd at the banquet, even more shockingly as this was one of her first performances after emigrating from Poland ((I think it was)), and she kinda looked as if a few more benisons would've been appreciated [see my previous post!]), Wynton Marsalis (his jazz playing was still very stiff then...he's since improved some), and r&b performer T.S. Monk, descendant and mainspring of the foundation the concert was raising money for. Not until the International Assoc of Jazz Educators conference in DC in '91 (where I got to meet Joe Morello and Max Roach, among others) was my mind to be as blown in that regard. PBS did a half-assed documentary of the concert, that left out some of the best music. One of my colleagues at KTUH was a blind fellow name Mike Meehan, who once called Ellison up because he could, in the late '70s, only find a very few recorded versions of his work (maybe only the Alternate Worlds Records releases, then). Ellison apparently picked up the phone saying, "You better be nice. It's been a shitty day." Upon hearing who was calling, why, and from where, Ellison reportedly said, "Jesus Christ, you're calling from Hawaii?!?" Meehan was very appreciative of Ellison taking the time with him, a stranger. But this is the kind of good deed, if Ellison's "Xenogenesis" is to be believed, the knowledge of which will lead boneheads to call up and pretend to be blind or otherwise try to waste his time. Tim, if you listen to George Russell and Anthony Braxton along with Miles Davis, I'll know you are not a captive of any generation nor, much worse, trendiness...

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 11:19:42 (CST)

Well, thank heavens we can ditch that 'age' thread.. It struck me as ironic in afterthought that such a discussion would break out on a Board dedicated to one of the oldest angry young man still living.. I rather like *TIM's* take on what 'old' is.. (And I'm glad to see a raucus sense of humor won't scare him off). Sure seems to me that when people start with the young/old thing, what they are really talking about is hardening of the attitudes - which happens at any age, but isn't generally noticable until time moves on and the person doesn't. Yes,*TODD*, I can relate to the wistful memories and regrets of unspoken 'til too late. The illusion that life will continue in it's happy rounds unchanged does come to a screeching halt at the Obits page with a name we *know*. Does one of two things.. Either forces us to accept change, and grow on - or hardens the attitudes. And if we accept change as natural, then we learn to appreciate and affirm the life around us while we can. *WOLFMISTRESS* good to hear from you! And *ENOCH*, I know it's a listed phone number, and I know it is REALLY tempting, but unless you have a *really* good reason to call HE, it's probably a good idea not to call HE, and keep 2 cheeks on your butt.. HE tends to view such phone calls the same way we do telephone solicitations for Lawn Service and Vinyl Siding/Window Replacements - as an invasion of his privacy. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton, Ohio - Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 08:02:43 (CST)

Baby boomers, Generation X...who gives a damn? I'm 31 and fit into neither category comfortably. We all do what we do, alone, right? And in the end, we're all ultimately on our own anyway (not to be existensialist or anything), and the mad urge to label our work and assign everyone into a particular heading (even if those headings are as fluid as Fantasy, Horror, and SF) is a mindless exercise better left to the Madison Avenue marketing whiz ad execs. Who needs it? Does being born in '65 mean I have to listen to Pearl Jam's Vitalogy instead of Miles Davis's Kind of Blue? Arguing over the "generation gap" is an outdated exercise in boredom, and those who fall into the discussion are better off ignored. Isn't it true when they say that "OLD" is merely ten years farther down the track than you are?

Enoch Mirren
- Thursday, December 12, 1996 at 05:32:23 (CST)

Just a curious thing. In the intro to "Are You Listening?" from Alone Against Tomorrow (1971), Ellison gives his home phone number. I just looked him up in the Megllan People Finder, and low and behold: same phone number.

keegan 'gin
- Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 22:53:51 (CST)

Oh, and, hi Wolfmistress!

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
BLISS - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 22:52:59 (CST)

Hey, Mason-I just went back and re-read your post and I'd say we're basically in agreement. So that's that as far as I'm concerned. Your last post touched me. I can relate. Got to tell HE how I felt about him. He was gracious, but quickly moved the conversation past the sounds of my sucking up. Is there more to the Mulligan story that you'd care to share (either here or by email)? Sure wish I had met him. I did meet Dizzy Gillespie and sing for him, but that's *another* story and one I think I may have told someplace here in archival ages ago. Anyway...good night. I wish you all sweet dreams, unless, of course, you're a horror writer and that's your own private Schenectady--your source of ideas (BTW-I think that's one of HE's all-time Great Answers to Stupid Questions). -/;>)

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Booking a Tour of the Region Between...., - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 18:28:19 (CST)

Well, well -- I'm gone for a couple weeks and look what happens -- the whole thing degenerates into a discussion that began almost a year ago. Xers & Boomers, the later of which I am a damned proud part. I'm having this same argument on another list I've joined and frankly, I'm not in the mood to explain anything all over again. Have fun, kiddies. Bite each other if you want, as long as you've all had your shots.....

Mason
KoP, Morose - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 16:28:11 (CST)

Well...I, too am actually of the "Busters" (as in Baby Bust), Keegan, as I was born the year before you, which by some reckoning could put me at the very tail end of the boom...I can certainly remember the pain of having to suffer through the earliest Beatles-as-soap-opera hits of the BeeGees (for example), hence the irritation with Martin expressed before. ("I started a Joke..."). But I just heard about the death of John Duffy, the tenor of the bluegrass band the Seldom Scene, and it triggers all kinds of thoughts...I managed to live in Northern VA for 12 years, until last month, without ever taking advantage of the Scene's regular Thursday gig at the Birchmere...this after first having a woman on whom I had a crush (unrequited) play some of their work for me at KTUH, the University of Hawaii radio station (my parents had just moved to Virginia after 4 years in Hawaii, and not long after I would go join them). Country singer Faron Young killed himself yesterday; bluegrass mandolinist and singer Duffy had a heart attack; both were in their 60s (too young to be bowing out, certainly). Which reminded me of all the people who die too young, often too little appreciated. Ellison certainly seems to be facing the opposite problem, cajoling his fans to stop sending him get-wells as they're drowning him, but among his friends have been too many geniuses and worthy people who've died with insufficient recognition or funds...Avram Davidson comes to mind. Fritz Leiber's a less extreme case (my semi-educated impression is that he was comfortable enough for his own taste financially at the time of his death; Algis Budrys once wondered in his F&SF column where was Leiber's Pulitzer or National Book Award? With Borges's Nobel, I guess). So...I guess I'm glad I got a chance to tell Gerry Mulligan how much his music meant to me, even if that's the kind of statement from a stranger that apparently annoyed the hell out of the most successful baritone saxophonist in jazz...I'm glad I got to publicly agree with Abbie Hoffman, shortly before his death...it got me on C-SPAN for the second time, but you can't swing a cat in DC without eventually being on C-SPAN (I've been twice I know of). Tell the people how much their work means to you...they might need to know.

keegan
- Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 15:29:43 (CST)

WARNING: bad typos follow. I trust you're all intelligent enough to figure it out. bad keegan, bad keegan!:(

keegan
- Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 15:24:51 (CST)

No, folks, I can't read all the action in one sitting today. My time is limited on this trip to the 'Land. The penultimate Wednesday in December is THE meeting day for a teacher. Up at seven, singing at eight, chainsmoking at eleven, singing again at eleven thirty. Then the meetings. One after school until 4. Then one at 6:30 until 9:30. And that doesn't count the half hour drive time between. Between. That's where I am now. Which brings me to my comment about generation. First off, I don't care if you're 40 or 20, if you act like you're 2 and wanna blame all your suffering on someone else, then **** you (that is just how I feel in general on the generation gap issue, NOT a sentiment toward any individual here). Placing blame seems a jerk's game. Seriously, I know some 20-year-old jerks and some 40 or 50 year-old-jerks (heck, I even know some 10-old-jerks but maybe a dose of reality under my tutelage will make 'em shape up). The whole Boomer v. Gen X is a media generated debate. It gives people something to write and read about. I go out and talk to a couple of forty-somethings and find out what peeves them about kids; then I go out and find a couple of forty-somethings and find out what peeves them about geezers (again, joking, joking, joking). I compare the answers and write an article. Hopefully, the readers tap into the "debate" and assume stances of opposition which generates more to write about. Aaaaahhhh....well, maybe not but you see my point (hopefully). I am neither Boomer or Gen X. I was born in 1965. I read somewhere that that makes me a "wedgie". Strangely appropriate somehow....Gotta go. I'd like to eat something today. Will read in more detail later and see is there's anything else upon which I care to comment (you're all hoping that's NOT the case, aren't you?). Before I go have a life (or a piece of banana bread) I would just like to say I think you're all swell. Glad to see so many people expressing themselves.

Sue Luesse
Hush, It won't hurt.. - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 13:44:16 (CST)

Just dawned on me *SHAZ*, that you might take my last post to mean I didn't know you were referring to Jason's earlier quip.. But I did, I did.. I was just funning *with* ya.. *ANNE* I seem to recall your having posted here months ago.. Before the move?? Is you is, or is you ain't the same one?? Welcome anyhoo.. And *TODD*, guess you answered the question. Peanuts, anyone?? Excuse me, I have to pat myself on the back, and put down a few Gen-Xer's to meet my Boomer quota of ego re-inforcement.. I'm sure there is some esoteric slam we've missed that will sail over the heads of our intended victims... ];-)~ ...

Todd Mason <nada>
KoP, PA USA - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 11:00:43 (CST)

OK, OK, I was tired yesterday, after a day at work, and was so busy doping out the code that the interview transcriptor provided for us that I managed to forget all about ER Burroughs's Pellucidar...of which I've never read the books themselves. Ah, well. Perhaps treating with the inordinate number of typos increased my apparent irritability, but I'm pretty tired of smug 40-somethings attempting to pat themselves on the back by belittling their juniors, for the latters' supposed lack of engagement with the larger world. As if the major navel-gazing movements of the 70s and 80s weren't largely supported by Boomers (not all Boomers, but more than enough). I don't mind labels such as "Gen X" and "Boomer" so much as those who think they can say something universal about the amorphous quasigenerations so labelled. George R R Martin pulled a similar little snot-shot in the text of his THE ARMAGEDDON RAG, wherein Boomers congratulate each other for having better music than their juniors. Of Course, Mountain is much better than, say, Jawbox...Herman's Hermits or Melanie clearly outclass Bikini Kill or Spitboy. Bobby Sherman--immortal. But you get my drift. Ann(e)--sorry I forgot if you use an "e" or not--good luck with the manuscripts! You might do better with most SF markets if you use that abbreviation rather than "sigh-fie" (Spider Robinson), "skiffy" (Damon Knight), "sky-fi" (Michael Palin), or even Forrest J. Ackerman's original neologism...I remember sending out my mss. starting about age 12, though I didn't publish a short story (as opposed to all kinds of nonfiction and even some poetry) until two years ago...but many got an earlier start than I...again, good luck. Friends usually come slow, particularly for the kind of person who really enjoys skiffy. Hang in!

Anne Corwin <wckf28c@prodigy.com>
Saratoga, California Little-Guy-Land - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 10:26:37 (CST)

Well, it seems as if you guys have a nice little community here...I hope you're not bitter towards new contributors to this board. I guess I should begin with the obligatory, "Hi, my name is Anne, I'm a seventeen-year-old reclusive geek who reads Harlan Ellison stories." So there it is. From what I've read on the BB so far, you guys have very intriguing discussions--discussions that prompt me to want to get in on them. For that is my purpose in life...to seek out and invade the interesting conversations of others. My social skills consist of a penchant for interruptions and random comments. But this is all a defense mechanism for having nothing to say that might convince you guys that I am sane and worthy of reply to. I've been to parties, and I had a few friends until I moved to CA in August. Now, I do homework and take huge volumes of reading notes from my physics textbook. I just yesterday sent a sci-fi story to a magazine, with hopes of publishing it. I can't think of anything else to do with my mind. You're all probably going to think this message is a plea for attention. You're exactly right. I suppose I should talk about HArlan instead of myself: so here goes. Harlan Jay Ellison has somehow taken the English language hostage, beat it into submission, and now periodically releases it to do his bidding in the form of electric and violent prose. There. Anne

Sue Luesse
Well, it was bright and shiny when I got it.. - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 07:43:04 (CST)

Whoa! I thought *I* was crabby! *TODD* I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from on this stereotyping by age thing.. Are you against the labeling and packaging - or only protesting the label and package your age group got?? GEEZ! So far, I've been a Baby Boomer, a Hippie, a Yuppie, and now am back to the abreviated Boomer - at least that's what I'm told by Them That Knows better than me what I am. As far as I can tell, the only thing I have consistantly been is a disappointment to the Labellers and Packagers, who seem to resent folks too busy living their own lives to 'get into' the role assigned them.. This whole 'generation' thing is a joke to begin with.. For the longest time, it was the era's (as in time frame) that got the cute monikers (Gay 90's, Roaring 20's, THE 60's). But these days, with the advent of polls, and Marketing Research, it is groups of consumers that are clumped by target markets and labelled. Can you say Dem - Old - Graphics?? I find it humorous that my own children somehow manage to be divided between Boomers (the same group Mom and Dad are in) and Gen-Xer's - though there is only a four and a half year spread in ages among the 4 of them.. I can only assume it has more to do with income, and ways to divest us of it, than it does with any facts regarding our persons.. And as far as people claiming 'expertise' in ficticious disciplines purporting to define, analyze, and explain what isn't really there in the first place - it's nothing new. Folks have always substituted rote memorization for conceptual comprehension to claim Smarts (when all else fails, memorize an encyclopedia and join Mensa..). And other, equally 'intellectual' folks buy that.. You see a lot of them on talk shows.. Experts on things they invented to be experts on.. Don't get too worked up over it, since it isn't the truth (and don't you just love the distinctions made between truth, fact, factoid, and 'true' fact?? Is there a false fact??).. And, hey *SHAZ*, good to hear from you.. I think.. Now, does that imperative regarding Christmas mean I get to choose who?? And is that a *fun* thing, or a grab-your ankles sort?? My, my - Just when I thought there was an entire Holiday Season for the cheap and gaudy things I love (Ah! the glitter, the shinies, the things that dangle and blink), a time of year when the routine duplicity breaks out into a friendlier sort of hypocracy.. At the very least, respect the miracle of the peed-ons getting the same day off for centuries.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Shaz <ouch@snakebite.com>
Holland - Wednesday, December 11, 1996 at 06:44:20 (CST)

Hey kiddies: 'Tis the season to read (and send out in lieu of Xmas cards if you're particularly twisted ;) "No Offense Intended, but Fuck Xmas!".

Todd Mason <currently none>
KoP, PA USA - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 17:31:23 (CST)

Just read the JM Straczinski (sp?) i/v w/Ellison for Cyberdreams/"I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" promotion. JMS's snide little aside about "the self-labelled Generation X" and its smug ignorance is typical of Boomer ignorant smugness. Damned if TIME magazine or, not Richard Price but the other, shallower novelist Richard X whose work just started appearing in the last decade...damned if a pompous, ill-written "news"rag (staffed by Boomers and their elders) and its competitors and gimcrack novelist Douglas Coupland (it finally came to me) can be held up as speakscreatures for everyone under 35. JMS is furtherly disingenuous in suggesting that Gen X will be running things in 10 years...as if most serious power isn't concentrated in approximately 60-year-old hands in most circumstances. Yes, and white, male, and/or rich. Ellison seems to be the victim of demon typesetters these days, whether for White Wolf or in whoever transcribed the i/v...Garcia-Marquez and Borges get Germanicized, and toward the end Ellison might be referring to "pellucid ore" but I have no sense of certainty about that...any suggestions?

Phillip Cairns <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 14:24:59 (CST)

The short story "Try A Dull Knife" can be found in the following HE collections: THE BEAST THAT SHOUTED LOVE AT THE HEART OF THE WORLD (which I think, along with LOVE AIN'T NOTHING BUT SEX MISSPELLED, will be in Edgeworks Vol. 3 or 4), ALONE AGAINST TOMORROW, and THE TIME OF THE EYE (British publication, Panther SF). If have several reasonably priced copies of THE BEAST and ALONE if you can't wait for the Edgeworks book.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
15 miles from Hell (MI), and yes, it froze over.. - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 13:21:12 (CST)

HoooWE! *TIM* that wasn't a tongue in your ear, it was Tom Paxton's classic wit rubbing up and down your leg - and can I have the _other_ ball when you take the one?? Got a small collection going - HEY! Everyone else has a hobby, and they look so cute dipped in glue & glitter, and hung from the tree with the miniature nutcrackers... ];-)~ ... Got paid, and everthang?!? I'll have to nip by horrornet and see if its worth sucking up early.. (don't hold your breath on that one..) And hello to you, too, from what I gather is the ONLY non-fiction writing patron of Webderland.. GEEZ! Did I get on the wrong line for talent?? Sure hope Attytude counts - I got LOTS of that - think I got in the same line twice, by mistake?? Oh, well.. There's always room for another enthusiactic reader. *BARNEY* How goes the Name Game?? I think I blew it, and took 2 turns, so you can disqualify me from the Grand Prize. And on smug re-reading of all the 'identified' names, I realized they weren't all identified.. And rather than rectify it myself, thought it would be nice if someone else took a shot (rectify and rectum sound so much alike - and being diabetic, 'shot' has an ugly underpinning of reality). *ALL* The back-up piece-O-crap escort is rolling again.. And today, in the mail, I get a recall notice on the darn thing for ignition problems.. So I call the dealer.. And we just fixed it.. No they don't re-imburse.. And Merry Christmas.. Think we'll keep the bikes warm in the garage, and not put them down for the winter after all. At least they GO when you want to. And if the roads are dry, no reason we can't ride through a certain dealership lot 'looking' at the new cars.. Take that, you greedy bastard.. See how many cars sell when customers worry about dodging bikers to look at them - and the bikes are on the dry part, leaving them the snowbanks.. We could hang bells from the handle-bars, and say we're assisting Santa.. Sssigghhh.. Sweet dreams - but it's pretty cold out there.. *QUESTION* One of my favorite HE stories is "Try A Dull Knife" - which it is now apparent, appeared in one of the books long since gone to the Borrowed-Book-Graveyard.. Can anyone tell me which collection it appeared in, so I can add it to my "Please-Please-Oh-God-I-want-it-bad" list for Christmas.. Thanks. Think I'll stop here, and nurse my grudge against Ford Motor Co., throw in a pout or two, and get back when I'm in a happier mood. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton, Ohio - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 10:14:52 (CST)

A quick aside, with a not-so-subtle bit of blatant self-promotion included (Jeez, and we hardly know each other -- would you mind taking your tongue out of my ear?). If you like HE's darker, more horror-oriented stories, you might want to check out the HorrorNet website at www.horrornet.com. HorrorNet features links to excellent online horror fiction and magazines, links to various author websites and to the Horror Writer's Association (which just gave HE a Life Achievement Award), and e-mail addresses for horror fiction writers. It's very well done, though it pales in comparison to Webderland, of course. The website is also just beginning a search for original fiction to purchase and publish -- check their writer's guidelines for more information. They just purchased their very first original story, by the way, an atmospheric short short called "Between Exits" written by some joker named Tim Walker from Dayton, Ohio. Who the hell is that? The check's already cashed and turned into groceries, and it didn't bounce; the story should be posted soon, and if you all don't read it, I'll take my ball and go back home. So there. :) Bye!

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton, Ohio - Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 10:12:14 (CST)

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Tuesday, December 10, 1996 at 08:38:57 (CST)

If you're reading this HE comments pages, chances you're not just a reader of HE but a bit of a writer yourself. HE still writes everything on an Olympia typewriter. You might find it interesting to see what Jerry Pournelle had to say about using a computer instead. (I wonder what Harlan would have to say about this...): http://www.byte.com/art/9612/sec12/art2.htm

keegan again
- Monday, December 09, 1996 at 18:05:58 (CST)

Oh, apologies, ZACK! I so identified with place that I mistakenly called you Lyman instead of your name. Forgive me.

keegan <ya can get heah frum theah....>
homesick, Maine is my country - Monday, December 09, 1996 at 18:03:24 (CST)

Oh, LYMAN! So good to hear a voice from the homeland! Born in Maine; Living in Exile (look for the Web page. I think it's called "Maine Exiles")----that's me. Going back for axe-mas and looks like it'll be a White Christmas. You know, "Danse Macabre" may have been the first place I ever saw HE's name mentioned. I was a major Stephen King reader like many young Maineiacs. My eighth-grade English teacher had us read short stories aloud to each other from "Night Shift". I became a popular reader because I would conveniently "forget" that I was supposed to leave out the swear words. I read a lot of Stephen King because I knew many of the Maine landmarks he mentioned in his writing and it just felt like Maine was so damn famous because it was in a book. Everything on teevee was from New York and LA. Maine was nowhere, but this guy King was writing scary books about us. Anyway, I read a lot of King. I may have read "Danse Macabre" when I was a junior in high school and I *know* I talked with my debate coach and my best friend, Jason, about "this Harlan Ellison guy". I couldn't get my hands on anything locally (libraries; bookstores) but heard "Jeffty is Five" just by chance at a speech competition. Finding HE became important to me then. I got my hands on what I could, but was still relatively clueless until I hit Webderland (some might argue that I'm *still* relatively clueless). Anyway, like King implies in "Danse", all of us cop Harlan's voice from time to time. You certainly managed to grab *my* attention (are you sure that's what you wanted? Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time!). Welcome!

Zack <handlen@lamere.net>
Lyman, Maine United States - Monday, December 09, 1996 at 16:56:53 (CST)

Wowsers! I'm shaken, I'm movin, I'm groovin in mah shoes. This is supremely Godlike mystical from beyond hit yah in the heart so you wanna die kind of stuff. I got interested in Harlan Ellison when I read about him in "Danse Macrabe" (a book on horror by the man, Stephen King), but it took me until such time as a Borders was to open in Portland before I could finally get my hands on such fine works as "Angry Candy," and "Death Bird." Makes me feel kinda backward, but hey, we all gotta start somewhere. Anyway, HE has had a humungous effect on me personally as a writer. (Yes, I realize I stole his style for about half of this message, but I had to get your attention somehow.) I'd love to meet; ironically enough, he probably doesn't want to meet me. Gotta go- just wanted to say how cool I think it is that there are more HE fans (way more) then there are in Lyman. By the way, the rants are awesome.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Sunday, December 08, 1996 at 10:47:01 (CST)

*KEEGAN* totally cool! I am a seriously bad singer myself, or I'd write for a copy and learn to scat (which I seriously admire and enjoy).. I can do the part where the syllables come out really fast (I call it talking) - just never sounds like music.. and it makes the dogs howl.. Sigghhh.. *BARNEY* since I don't have Edgeworks 2 to refer to, is it possible that the Alexander Ketensky you noted was a typo, and it is really Aleksandr Kerensky?? In which case, I know who that is.. and every name on the list has a response (if not a correct one - I do this with hazy memory as my source).. Kerensky was the Russian Premier from Spring to October in 1917, who tried to set up a republic (using the Duma as its basis) and ally Russia with England and France during WWII. He deposed Prince Lvov (the one Nicholas II abdicated in favor of) and was in turn overthrown by the October Revolution of the Bolsheviks (he was a Menshevik I think). Ayn Rand (who was eyewitness to the October Revolution in Moscow as a young girl) was a supporter of his political and ethical views.. Any Ayn Rand buffs to fill us in on that?? I know he died in 1970, and would love to find out what happened to him after he was deposed.. Lot of years there.. And if that's not the right guy, how about Alexander K., the protagonist (accused) in Franz Kafka's 'The Trial'?? No? Well, then I'm stumped (and it's bugging me). This really is a *fun* little game. *JIM* well, that's what you get for playing 'big people games'.. no fun, all work, and a guaranteed increase in the level of frustration at the end of the day.. *WOLFMISTRESS* Aaaruuuuhhhh.. That's the best howl I can work up.. Miss you.. *ALL* Lots of new names, and neat new Stuff on the old B-Board from everyone. Is this a concerted efort to drive Barney back into the Land of the Living with proof that HE is sometimes imperfectly correct, and there are more than 6 people (endlessly cloned)?? Keep it up!! Christmas Season always takes a toll on 'free-time' activities, so I didn't expect a lot of action 'til the new year on Webderland my first Cyber-Christmas. That is based on Real Life, where you can figure any group of people is 10% hard-core do-ers, and 90% show-up-sometimers.. I am glad to see that isn't the case in Cyberspace necessarily.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
Sleepless in Ithaca, - Sunday, December 08, 1996 at 02:30:17 (CST)

What the hey--I'm just dying to share! It's after three in the ay-em and I just completed a 9,000 word paper about how to approach vocal jazz improvisation (scat singing). My mentor read the rough draft and said it's one of the best things he's ever seen about learning how to sing jazz. He wants me to publish it and said that he will do all he can to see that happen (though I'm worried that the thing is a bit long, even for your average glossy professional journal). Anyway, I'm wired on this all- nighter and just *had* to tell *somebody*. If I wake up my husband, the article will be published posthumously fer shure. ;-) If anybody wants to know how to scat sing, email me and I'll send it out (serious inquiries only--believe me, you'd *have* to be serious to read this thing). Okay. Enough off-topic, boring, and self-congratulatory babble. Thanks for your time and indulgence. Nighty-night!

Tim Walker <TWalker538@aol.com>
Dayton , Ohio - Saturday, December 07, 1996 at 20:04:58 (CST)

Gee, I must tell you people -- I am REALLY impressed. Sounds like the people who frequent this area are much more literate and intelligent than the majority of people I've met online. Nice to see there are still people who read books. I'm a fledgling screenwriter and I was curious -- has anyone ever read any of Harlan's scripts OTHER THAN the generally available ones? I've seen "CITY" and "I, ROBOT" of course, and also the ones in THE GLASS TEAT and "FLINTLOCK" in THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON...also read the three opening versions of "WHIMPER..." in HARLAN ELLISON'S WATCHING. But now I'm breathlessly awaiting HARLAN ELLISON'S MOVIE in EDGEWORKS VOL. 3, and I was wondering if any of you could point me toward any unseen scripts that HE wrote which might be around. Thanks!

James C. Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com>
Uhhhhhhhh..., In Which We Explain To The Turkey Sitting At The End of... - Saturday, December 07, 1996 at 14:20:24 (CST)

Wow. I wander off to do the adult thing for fifteen minutes and lookit what y'all did! I'm impressed that so many people know so much and are willing to share, share, share it! Wonderful! Maybe humanity isn't destined to become illiterate cave-dwelling trogs again. Whew. So...what to say? Oh! Read EDGEWORKS Vol 2. So, like, if, like, anyone, like, wants to, you know, like, talk about, like it, or, like, you know, e-mail, like, me, fur-sure. (I gotta stay away from L.A. for awhile. I'm affected by it.) Until next time...

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Saturday, December 07, 1996 at 09:04:07 (CST)

Great posts everybody! Of course I just realized this puts me in the unenviable position of fact checker but I wanted to get smarter so it's the price I'll pay. It's going to be fun to see how many (or few) of these names made ENCARTA and how many I'll have to research using my stash of real books Ray Bradbury made me stash away for the coming cultural ice age. Hope there are no "firemen" on this list. *Sue* I owe you a real letter - not a post it note - but it's gotta wait. *Peggy* If your lurking here, your British Petroleum e-mail address didn't work I t seemed to be a generic ie; Yourmail@ etc.Maybe try from some other station. Keep up the great work everybody. It's the weekend. I need to see new names or I'm going to start to believing Harlan is correct and it really is the same 6 crazy neighbors chatting away over the back fence of virtuosity. Living in denial. Barney

Sue Luesse
oh, shoot.. I forgot to add.., - Friday, December 06, 1996 at 12:03:12 (CST)

Barney, forgot to add that Paul Muni was an outspoken critic of US policies re: racism, and classism, and most especially the concentrations of power and wealth in the hands of the 'more equal' few. He was incredibly popular as an actor until the McCarthy House Committee on UnAmerican Activities cranked up in Congress, and he disappeared from the public eye amidst rumors of being a communist spy - though he remained a union activist for the film industry. I read sometime in the late 60's that he had organized people within the film community to 'ghost' for black-listed brethern and sistern, splitting the proceeds under the table to keep the black-listed working, and had something to do with an artists enclave in Mexico where black-listed folks could work in peace, funded in part by donations. Always seemed a shame to me that he did so much for black-listed writers - but as a blacklisted actor, could do nothing about his own situation (hard to 'ghost' a role). It's not too loopy a connection to HE.. Seems to be pretty direct.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Brighton, MI - Friday, December 06, 1996 at 09:47:06 (CST)

Now this is totally cool! GREAT idea *BARNEY* (and the right bait always helps - you into fishing??). Paul Muni was a film actor/director/writer and union activist in the 40's and 50's, best known as an actor - can't imagine what the connection to HE might have been... Maybe just somebody HE ran into on a picket line??.. Nawww.. Then Ronnie Reagan would be on the list... };-)~ ... *PHILLIP* Sorry. I haven't got anything to add on the HE dreams thread. I don't think HE's ever had a guest appearance in my dreams. And I do remember my dreams - well, at least the last one before I wake up. Current research suggests we dream in 60-90 minute cycles throughout the night, so for the average healthy person there are 4 to 8 dreams every night. I guess, if I put HE first in my dreams, and don't interupt, I wouldn't remember.. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that people 'solve' and 'resolve' things that bother them in their dreams.. And it's nice to know that you are dreaming - since absence of dreams is a symptom of several severe psychosis, and repression of dream sleep (REM) is a disorder in it's own right. We always knew the dreamers were healthier people... (:-)... *ALL* Got all balled up in Christmas stuff the past few days. We got our first wrapped gift in the mail Monday, which meant I had to get the decorations up so there would be a tree to put it under. And if I put up the tree, well.. I might as well do the whole house (we do the inside with lights, garlands, ornaments, and all kinds of cool, shiny, glittery stuff, so it looks like you're inside the Christmas tree). And since that is a major undertaking (30 hrs. this time), why not just polish it all off, and do the Christmas cards too.. So as you read this, the cards are on their way, and I have only a little shopping left for Christmas. Which makes me happy. And *BARNEY*, the dogs and I went in for shots (need to have a certificate for the dog licenses before the first of the year), so it's legal if I bite.. But not too likely. I think I worked off the crabbies getting the Christmas stuff done. And that last leg of mailperson was tasty... really satisfied... ];-)... Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Phillip
- Friday, December 06, 1996 at 08:02:32 (CST)

"Earth Copyright Day 7 by Cordwainer Bird." That sounds familar.

Jason <No offense intend, but f*ck Xmas>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 23:31:56 (CST)

Been busy but the lure of free stuff has brought me back to typing. Don't have the time, but free stuff is free stuff and a good deed is a good deed. Zenger did indeed have a press although I don't think the revolutionary war had anything particular to do with it. He was sued for libel or slander, was accquitted when the jury decided that his stroies were based on facts. This set precedents for cases of libel or slander whatever it was he was sued on. And was important in establishing the freedom of the press. Freedom of the press is the HE connection something he believes in deeply I'm sure. Since Keegan already mention him and I'm just clarifing I claim Mulligan, and will go again. Alfred Krupp is the Cannon King he made high-quality steel cannons, guns, as well as non-lethal steel products was the called the founder of modern warfare or something like that. Why would HE want us to know about someone like that you ask? Hold on gentle readers I'll explain. As I was taught by my history teacher Krupp was also a pioneer in workers welfare, he had pension funds and burial funds, and he built his workers schools, hospitals etc...all of this in the early to mid 1800's. He was a good man, like HE, like me, like Barney. (Anyone else hear a kissing sound?) Phillip is an HE related dream good enough for you? I was climing Mount Kilimanjaro, (I know it was Mt. Kilimanjaro because you know things in dreams. Anyway while climbing I discovered this secret cave. Inside this secret cave was writing, one sentence copied out in every single language, i search through the cave until until I found english. I eventually did and I read it. It said; Earth Copyright Day 7 by Cordwainer Bird. That pretty much sums up my world view. now I have to get back to work Jason

Phillip Cairns <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
[and the excitement builds...], - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 21:06:38 (CST)

Bile is the only person to sort of respond to my previous posting, but what the hell; there's not much else going on. Here it is: I've had another Harlan Ellison dream. In the last dream I was playing basketball with HE and William Wharton (author of BIRDY, A MIDNIGHT CLEAR, DAD and so on). Not much happened. This time I'm leaning against a log on my favourite beach in Nova Scotia with my ass molded comfortably into the sand. I'm doing what I usally do at the beach: either reading or writing, maybe both. It's a nice cool day, the sky is blue (yes, I dream in technicolor), Jake, my old dog, is very uncharacteristically jumping through the waves. I'm looking down at my book or my writing pad when I hear a voice say, "What the hell's your problem?" I look up and it's Harlan, standing there naked (like in one of the Dream Corridors). I can see a black mark going up the length of the inside of his leg and a big zipper-like scar going from nipple to nipple. (It's like recognizing Krusty the Clown---it *is* you!) I tell him that I miss my old dog. HE's says, "That dog?" I say, "No. The dog I had when I was a kid." So Harlan sits down and we start talking, except when he sit down, we're not on the beach anymore. We're still by the ocean, but we're high up on a cliff looking down on the water smashing into the rocks. We've got our legs dangling over the edge. We're sitting on grass. Anyhow, HE tells me how his dog got gassed when he was a kid, how he's been angry ever since---the defining moment of his life. I tell him how I've never experienced any such defining moment. My dog ran away when I was 10, and I missed him so bad that it made me cry for years; I always felt sad about it. And when I still think about him (my old dog), I get can pretty choked up. Then Harlan says, "Well, there you go! That's probably the most profound thing you ever felt when you were a kid. You felt sad when your dog never came back. So for the rest of your life, whenever you felt sad, you'd feel ever *more* sad, because you never let go of those feelings you had for your dog. That's love, kiddo." ---There may have been more to it (I think there was), but that's the best I can remember. I woke up feeling happy and sad at the same time. Kinda neat, except that the implication is, the defining moment of my life was a sad moment. I know I'm not angry and hot-blooded, so I guess that leaves me as a sad person. Sheesh. What a gyp. I'll try to get angry for now on (it seems to have worked alright for Harlan).... (P.S. to *BILL*: the "Bile" was just a joke.)

keegan
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 18:45:16 (CST)

Ooops! Sorry, everyone. I just get so EXCITED by this stuff (now, where did that life get to...?). :>)

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:56:36 (CST)

Keegan! Another great post. However, please, one to a customer. Save some for the poor souls who don't come to the watering hole every 20 minutes. Still, this is tasty fun. I am just informed from the sidelines that Babe Zaharias used to cut all the excess rubber from the soles of her shoes to run faster. So far we have qualities like bucking the tide, standing up for ones principles and single minded dedication. Hmmmm. No connection there. I'll try not to interrupt every time from here on out. Later.

keegan <keegan @lightlink.com>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:31:28 (CST)

Hey, Barney! Fun! Um, let me start with the musicians 'cause they're the only ones I know off the top of my head: Bix Beiderbeck was a famous jazz trumpet player. He was born in Davenport, Iowa and was also a fine pianist and composer. He is considered by many historians to be the first white innovator in jazz music. He was an alcoholic and died young (in his 20's; I believe 27). June Christy was a singer, most famous for her stint with the Stan Kenton Orchestra. She was a white singer with a classy and sassy style. Baby Dodds was a drummer from New Orleans and I believe that both he and his brother Johnny Dodds played in Louis Armstrong's early bands. Babe Zaharias was a famous female athlete, one of the most well-rounded of the 20th century. John Peter Zenger....hmmm....didn't he have a press and get into some trouble during the Revolutionary War. Not sure about that last one, could have been another row with the British like the War of 1812. OOH! I hope others answer. I love this trivia stuff!!!

Barney <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:29:11 (CST)

Yes! Mason takes the lead and we're off and running! De-lurk. We don't bite. Except for Sue. :-]

Mason
KoP, PA USA - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 17:19:00 (CST)

Well...tempting as it is to make a public ass of one's self (Hetty Green a singer or an actress?), and enjoying the preponderance of jazz players on the list (Ellison has a slightly unfair advantage over those of us born at the end of the Boom and later, when it comes to some of these names...we're just less likely to have heard of Babe Dietrich Zaharias unless we saw a certain TV movie in the mid '70s)...but so as to not hog half the list (at best), I'll mention Herbert Marcuse as most famously author of ONE-DIMENSIONAL MAN, an old Communist (ex-Communist Jerry Pournelle would insist "Stalinist-apologist"--see DREAM MAKERS 2 ((if that's not a forbidden document on this page))--and who's to say that Pournelle's mistaken in this?) who, most dearly to my own heart, was mocked by the Communards of the Paris General Strike in 1968, many of them anarchists and protoGreens and not too patient with a boring old flatulence of a Leninist, stalking about telling them how they'd gone Too Far.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 14:04:26 (CST)

[see previous post or this will be meaningless] THE EDGEWORKS VOLUME 2. SWEEPSTAKES TaDah! I know few people are motivated by the quest for KNOWLEDGE and so I will throw in a free copy of the F+SF issue that has the 1st app. of Harlan's "The Deathbird" as an incentive free to whoever has the best post. Decision will be based on neatness, perception, thoughtfulness, loopiness of connection to Harlan, and this readers blood sugar.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 13:53:32 (CST)

Hey folks. I've got a thread. Or a game we can play that will make all of us (or at least me) just a wee bit smarter. Last year, when Harlan was in W. Virginia I showed him a notebook[s] I keep in which I have been sort of chronologizing and cross indexing his life and he spotted a list of names [Marvin Minsky was one] running down a page and he said "what's this?" I explained it was a list of people he referred to that I needed to find out more about. Some were context related and some I had simply drawn a blank on. I'm caught up on Minsky and Harlan ran down the list and filled me in on the rest. Editors,friends,artists,wives,etc. One he was stumped on which was rather amusing to both of us. At any rate, I'm reading the new introduction and on page XVI and XVII he's making fun of people who come late and haven't got a clue with regard to culture/history. Part of me laughed and part of me felt like I had a bullseye painted on my forehead. The list, or catalog is as follows...Bix Beiderbecke / Herbert Marcuse / Alexander Katensky / Alfred Krupp / Florence Mills / Lucy Terry /June Christy / Hetty Green / Clarice Cliff / Babe Zaharias / Baby Dodds / Paul Muni / and a bonus John Peter Zenger. What I'd like is for people here to pick a name and tell me [briefly] who these people are. 2 I know. Maybe 3. The rest I am at a loss. I'm not asking anybody here to do homework for me. I read for pleasure these days. I just thought it would be a fun way for those of us carrying trivia around in our heads to do a core dump while staying marginally on topic. I volunteer to do whoever we all draw a blank on.Geniuses, please, one to a customer. If we get a complete stumper I'll call him and ask who the hell is that. Then, BUNGEE JUMPING! Sure, I feel stupid, but then he does have a mumblemumble year head start. C'mon people, de-lurk and help a great cause!

Jon Stewart <Not Applicable>
Albany, NY USA - Thursday, December 05, 1996 at 11:54:25 (CST)

Very interesting site. Shocked to hear that HE was sick (no news rec'd here until today 12/2/96 (way out of touch), but glad he is better. Remember once at a convention (about 17 years ago) Mr. Ellison was trying to impersonate some other author like Poul Anderson. Even signed his name as Poul Anderson. very funny at the time...

Todd Mason <unsure>
King of Prussia, PA USA - Wednesday, December 04, 1996 at 14:45:57 (CST)

Mr. Ellison has an announcement of a visit to the Thousand Oaks Borders. I know he's a firm proponent of the Writers' Guild, maybe not so enthusiastic about some other unions, but I refer everyone to Michael Moore's (ROGER & ME, TV NATION, DOWNSIZE THIS) column in the penultimate issue of THE NATION, wherein he describes his apparent banning from Borders stores for daring, with Borders' hierarchy's permission, to attempt to deal in an evenhanded way with Borders attempts to bust unionization efforts in Philadelphia and elsewhere. As a former Borders Office Manager, I can attest that Borders is in the thrall of some petty dictators.

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Steak City, UT - Tuesday, December 03, 1996 at 10:40:12 (CST)

Phillip, I apologize for dropping an "l" from your name in my previous append. Just refer to me as "Bil" a few times in the future (or "Bile" if you're feeling particularly bitter) and we'll call it even, okay?

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Stink City, You-tah - Tuesday, December 03, 1996 at 10:24:41 (CST)

Philip, I had a dream about HE a few weeks ago. Problem is, the dream was most likely all too realistic. I had designed and built a wooden display case which would be exactly the right size to contain all 20 volumes of Edgeworks, and I was in a room trying to convince HE how great it was. Unfortunately, he was totally unimpressed with both my project and with me. Somehow, I get the feeling that if I ever did meet HE in a non-REM realm, he would find me equally unimpressive. Recent research indicates that dreams are a survival mechanism, helping us sort through the vast amount of information we receive daily and putting it to a "staying-alive" use in our brains. Maybe I should heed the advice my dreams are trying to tell me and steer clear of meeting HE in person--if I want my ego to survive unscathed, that is. -- Billy D.

keegan
- Monday, December 02, 1996 at 17:58:19 (CST)

My husband loves me! Today, I arrived home from school to find the Dream Corridors Special and a sweet note on my computer. What a nice surprise! Yes, Sue, the kids felt very proud to be teevee stars. We got a chance to talk about the concept of the "sound byte" today when they realized that the news didn't broadcast every note or word of what we sang or said. Talked about how the teevee news rarely shows the "whole" story since they are constrained by time limitations. And, no, I wasn't scat singing as I schlepped, but my teeth were chatterin' up a Fascinatin' Rhythm! BTW, Steve, congrats on the thesis nearly finished. My turn'll be coming up--oh-- in the next two years or so (that, or the State of New York won't let me teach any more!). Take care, all!

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Monday, December 02, 1996 at 16:47:34 (CST)

*SUE* In short, Vi failed her test, and doesn't want me blabbing any more about it. :P In the meanwhile, my thesis is nnow in its finishing stages, with the vast majority of the draft written, and only some diagrams and maybe another theorem or two to add. Turkey Day was great, despite noisy nephews, and now the Christmas season rears its head. Must find a way to make sure an Xmas card gets to Perth, and one to Sydney, this year BEFORE the bloody holiday.... :) Still trying to find the time to read Edgeworks II. Maybe after Finals....

Sue Luesse
burrrrurp, Aaahhhh - - Monday, December 02, 1996 at 10:32:16 (CST)

Had a good Thanksgiving. All the kids came over, everyone brought a delicacy, and we spent most of the afternoon and evening disposing of the evidence while watching fuhbah on TV (now, that is a *good* use of TV), and talking between the good plays. It warmed up, so our snow disappeared in a drizzly rain. And yes, I'm having second thoughts about putting the bike down for a winter nap. Especially since the back-up piece of crap is being persnickety.. And so it's on the the Big One (holiday-wise). Christmas cards to mail, presents to buy (and excuses for them being 'low-end' expenditures to be thought of to make), house and tree to decorate.. Always something.. I like Christmas.. really I do.. It's just so much work.. Guess the measure of how much I like it, is that I do it every year.. bellyaching every step of the way.. Hey! That's my 'style'.. And there's a lot of energy generated by a good bitching session.. Ask me.. Been thinking about those long drives and adverse weather reports posted here, and decided there is a lot to be said for the Lake Effect.. and being a homebody.. Guess I don't need a life quite that much. *STEVE* how'd Vi do on the drivers thing?? I have my first bike license plate on the wall (OK, OK.. It's not Art, but *I* like it - it speaks to me), and since I see it every time I sit down at the 'puter, I can't help but be reminded.. *KEEGAN* Big Congratulations on your Public Broadcast! Bet the kids didn't think it was 'no big deal'.. I have such a vivid image of you sliding along, laden with odd baggage, in your teal dress.. I've got to know - were you doing scat sound effects? Puts me in mind of the old 'plate-spinning-on-a-stick' act.. What ever happened to that? Never see it anymore, and it is so deeply symbolic of life as we know it, it surely must be some kind of art.. Well, I've got bitchin' and moaning to do, to get up enough steam to start decorating, writing cards, and such.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
Jesus, Birdy, - Friday, November 29, 1996 at 07:30:10 (CST)

I had a dream last night that I was playing basketball with William Wharton and Harlan Ellison. Man, what a dream. Anybody else have any HE (or WW) dreams?

Sue Luesse
It's Big Bird Day, - Thursday, November 28, 1996 at 11:58:28 (CST)

Happy Thanksgiving!! Off to do the turkey thing, and gobble-gobble..

keegan
- Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 22:36:35 (CST)

Hey, Steve- good to see ya! (WM, that howl was a good idea. Good to hear folks howlin' back.) It snowed like crazy today and I found myself carrying around a guitar, a briefcase stuffed with makeup, shoes and tunes; a shopping bag full of sleighbells and wood blocks; a conga drum, *and* a cup of coffee. It was true trial by ice but I sailed through (on slick cowboy boots). The news crew (local cable-nothin' big) I invited actually showed up. My students were happy, focused, and groovin' and I looked relatively stunning in the teal velvet dress I bought for fifteen bills this summer. A trying, but good day. Another little bit of folky rhetoric from Maine: If you can't take the winter, you don't deserve the summer. I took it well today, but the *big* question is: What'll it look like in March????? Anyway....it's *that* time again. NO. Not *that* time, but *holiday* time. I'm up for mellow this year. As long as I find Ellison in my stocking, the dysfunction should hold at a dull roar (like you care -/;^) ). Cheers!

Steve again
- Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 22:11:55 (CST)

Some stuff about winter weather: I was born and raised in Syracuse, and spent an awful lot of time living/driving in the Lake Ontario Snow Belt (tm). To give you guys an idea of what it's like: do you remember the huge snowstorm in '93 that whalloped the Northeast part of this country, dumping obscene amounts of snow everywhere? In my wife's home town (Orwell, NY, have fun finding it on a map just east of Oswego, off I-81), they got about 50 inches of snow overnight, and people came out the next morning and said "I thought there was supposed to be some big snowstorm coming through." :) Suffice it to say I love snow, hate summer (I overheat very easily), and I look forward to winter every year, most especially beause the raisins stay home and don't clog the highways with their random-braking, no-signal-lights, mayhem driving. If there's more than an inch of snow on the ground I'm never late to work. :)

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 22:04:55 (CST)

Heya, WM. Sorry I haven't surfaced here in so long -- I've been pounding the keys typing out my thesis, and have not even had time to read most of the stuff here, much less respond. :P But of course, tonight I pop in for a second, and voila! there's my name in someone's post. :) In short, I work a pair of (teaching) jobs, and on most days of the week it isn't feasible to go straight from the first to the second, so I end up driving from Endicott to the far side of Binghamton (about 15-20 miles) and then back again, and then later to Vestal (about 7 miles through winding back streets laden with imbeciles who think that having a driver's license gives them free rein to regulate traffic by driving 20mph on a 2-lane no-passing road when there's only one person around, that being me, behind them, honking my horn on occasion, wondering if the half-hour buffer I gave myself to get to work was sufficient. But, of course, I digress.) and back, occasionally with a trip to Johnson City (7 miles each way) to get my wife from work thrown in for good measure. It doesn't top your 120, but I often spend 2 hours a day behind the wheel. BTW, Vi is taking her driver's test tomorrow (FINALLY), so if anyone could wish her luck, she'd appreciate it... :)

Sue Luesse <jaluesse.htonline.com>
Home at last, Home at last! Thank Gawd Ahmighty I home at last! - Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 11:49:25 (CST)

Don't ask. I'm sure that the therapy and pills will relieve any lingering evidence of the episode...{;-)... And let that be a lesson to everyone about wayward relatives, and the 'honor' of being the designated family memeber sent to sign off family responsibility.. Sssigghhh.. Came home to a coupla inches of snow and cold - and glad to be back. I checked the Sci-Fi Dominion Buzz thingus, and there is a new one.. Could it be Webderland referred to??? ..snicker.. And what's the deal with Slippage? On TV HE is pumping it like it's gathering dust on the bookshelves and needs a push into our hands - but none of the local stores even have a date for it yet (other than generic next Spring).. Haven't gotten around to Edgeworks 2 yet. Still stowing the garbage from the trip. But would welcome a word or two from anyone about it.. So read faster, willya?? Geeezzz... I'm gonna hafta schlepp on down and _buy_ it to find out anything at this rate.. Dontcha know anticipation is half the fun?? Don't let me down - pull your weight and give me fodder.. *KEEGAN* yup. I'm back. I hear soaking in vinegar will take care of that unwanted 'extra thingie'.. And did you ever get your ceegar?? *WOLFMISTRESS* Bummer. Miss your voice here. Long commutes suck (blow?? bite?? It's one of those).. Hope a fortuitous circumstance breaks your way, and your are 'restored' to us. Sounds like a 'fallen woman' redemption plot, doesn't it??... (;-) ... *BARNEY* You've done your evil, dark deed well.. I am consumed with jealousy and envy. Think I'll watch those movies I recommended myself - need the laugh - and then I'll be strong enough to deal with what Must Be Done revenge-wise.. HaaaHaHaHaaaaH! A bastardized sequel to Driving the Spikes... With source material from real life..... Aaahhhh, shoot.. I can't do it. You have just dodged a terrible fate, due solely to my inability to write anything except crap.. The gods of Art are with you.. *ALL* Not really anything to say to all, since 'All' takes in a lot of L. Urker kin, whom I understand are prolific breeders...er...readers... But it seemed like a nice thing to do, acknowleging folks - and it is the kind of lame ending one expects from a hack.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe - And cook that roadkill at 250 degrees, two hours per pound, or the gristle is unbearable...

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Tuesday, November 26, 1996 at 07:36:16 (CST)

It's the calm before the holiday storm. Nothing happening here other then I had the opportunity to take in the Hal Holbrook' Evening With Mark Twain. Now, some of you may remember the old Hallmark specials that featured this, in which case your attitude may be "been there, done that" but it's different. That was the "young man" material. Twain outlived two wives and most of his children. It changed him drastically toward the end. Holbrook is doing the Gods Fool/Letters From the Earth material. It's f**king brilliant. Some people treat Holbrook like it's another Hello Dolly revival but it's anything but. Holbrook now has over 20 hours of material at his command and there are no klinkers. I cannot help but admire someone who has given there whole life (35+ years) in the service of giving this culture a sense of who Twain was. OK, my soapbox is straining. By the way, if anybody thinks this is off topic, go read more Harlan. Then read the travel writings of Twain. Go. Now.

keegan
- Monday, November 25, 1996 at 22:19:03 (CST)

Yup. Good advice, WM. Being roadkill's no good. On the other hand, *scoring* roadkill might feed the fam'ly through the winter. As they say in Maine, you kill it--gotta grill it. Eat the venison if it doesn't kill you first--deer are everywhere!! Nothin' much to hit 'round here 'cept deer. I got nothing to talk about really. Got a big concert at school tomorrow. It's only 12 miles away but it's darn close to Podunk (nudge, nudge, wink, wink Luesse!) and the driving can get *pret-ty tric-ky*. Hopefully, it'll just be months of the usual Ithaca slush--relatively easy to drive in, but messy, messy, messy!

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
The Edge of Fromever...., - Monday, November 25, 1996 at 18:16:21 (CST)

YO! If anyone cared, I'm still alive and kicking something under the desk here....Just overwhelmed with work and the 120-miles a day drive to and from. I think Steve Pagano mentioned he had a similar drive way back there, somewhere. **STEVE** -- if you're still out there (and not lost in a snowdrift), how long is your drive and where from/to??? Anyone up for discussion is has the winter blahs settled in already??? What were we talking about before? Wanna talk about something else??? Wanna talk at **all**? Gotta get the Vol. 2 of Edgeworks; my regular place is only open late one night a week, I think. I've got to drive by and check the sign on the door..... Take care, all. If you're heading into bad weather, drive safely. Better to be late than roadkill....

keegan
- Monday, November 25, 1996 at 17:56:44 (CST)

oh, yeah.... the laughs never stop. har har har. Hey, Sue--you back yet? Good trip?

L. Urker
- Monday, November 25, 1996 at 17:43:09 (CST)

Wow, isn't this exciting.

todd haney <theltae@mindspring.com>
charlotte, nc usa - Thursday, November 21, 1996 at 22:17:45 (CST)

just to let any HE fans near Charlotte know that I've got a nice little HE endcap running for Nov. at Borders Books/Music [(704)-365-6261]. It has: EDGEWORKS 2--the latest WW release; EDGEWORKS 1--the one what come before; HE's DREAM CORRIDOR (collected) and DC QUARTERLY--thank GOD!; and THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON--the God-awful monster of a book whut's good ta read! if you happen to stop by, ask for Todd. I'll be glad to show you around. later, todd haney.

TCV
USA - Wednesday, November 20, 1996 at 16:03:58 (CST)

RE: EDGEWORKS 2. Yes. B & N has it.

Mrs. Claus <northernlightslink.com>
North Pole, NP Canada maybe? I prefer to call myself a World citizen - Wednesday, November 20, 1996 at 15:15:23 (CST)

Somebody please tell me that if my husband goes down to Waldenbooks he will be able to special order Edgeworks #2 for timely holiday delivery. We sat a hundred elves at typewriters (even gave a couple of 'em word processors) and they haven't turned out anything nearly as delicious as that Harlan Ellison guy has written on his worst day.........

Kostner <Bilbo@hobbit.hole.net>
Madison, Wisconsin, Confusion U S of A - Tuesday, November 19, 1996 at 23:53:20 (CST)

Has anyone been to the Harlan Ellison spot on the Sci Fi ( channel site recently. There hasn't been a new commentary by Ellison since he flamed the channel over their coverage of a major Science Fiction convention about a month ago. Could there be a connection? Just an observation.

Isis
Hillsdale, NJ USA - Monday, November 18, 1996 at 22:27:25 (CST)

There are many Harlan Ellisons!!! Love has many faces. Congratulations to all the invisible mentors who have imparted there wisdom to HE's embodiement. Keep up the good work! Love Isis

The Cinematic Voyeur <104656.765@CompuServe.com>
- Monday, November 18, 1996 at 19:51:22 (CST)

Oh, my. So many questions, so little time. Well, heck! That's what ANHEDONIA is for, folks! Come on! Work wid me already! Why the nome de plume (or whatever the heck it's called this week)? Well, it took me five years to get exactly one million people to respond to TCV in some form or fashion. I'd like to get the second million to respond in half that time so let's get out there and let others know I'm around!

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Monday, November 18, 1996 at 16:43:36 (CST)

Anybody lurking here get to this weeks signing? I just got the "cheat book" guide for the CD-ROM "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" game. It's actually rather amusing. I have the game but I've decided to give it to myself for Christmas in case I am non-plussed by the holiday pickings. My signed Edgeworks Volume 2 should be winging it's way to me even as I type. Bwahahahahahaha! Next mail order purchase? A life, of course!

keegan
- Friday, November 15, 1996 at 13:54:43 (CST)

Hey, Sue--happy trails! Safe travel and much fun to ya. And, hey--TCV--I'd be more than happy to take that ceeegar, but I ain't expectin' to grow one of those thingies that'll turn me into a MAN any day soon (and nope, no surgery neither)! I have been called "Butch", though. :>) Have I sufficiently slaughtered the language yet ( or at least wailed on that dead horse 'til it's GOOD and dead)? Bon weekend, folks, and if you're the type that hits the board without checking the mainpage regularly, check out News link. Updated today! Thanks, Rick.

Sue Luesse <I'm not here>
Fly on the wings of turkeys??, Sound like fun.. - Friday, November 15, 1996 at 12:40:33 (CST)

This is my final pre-flight post. I'll be offline, lost in the Real World of places no one has ever heard of, doing silly things, and having fun with other unknown 'real' people.. until the 25th.. If your e-mail gets bounced before then, it means I suddenly got popular and the InBox is full, or the sysopadmin whatever-he-is finally got even.. Fickle cyberspace.. *BARNEY* I want you to watch The Color Purple, The Deer Hunter, The Killing Fields, Brazil, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, and Easy Rider endlessly until I'm back.. Should guarantee that *anything* I have to tell about when I get back will sound like Fun - and you'll be strong enough to take it... ;-)~ ... *TCV* - what's up with the nom de plum?? And you should watch Barney while I'm gone - he could overdose on that stuff - I'll expect an in depth report of epic 'yoyoueristic' bent from you (people are SO much more interesting to 'peep' than commercial movies..especially if they are interesting people - besides, you might learn something).. The preparations for departure took a dipsy-doodle when the water-heater blew (Thar she be, Cap'n! A BIG-un!) - before I got the laundry done, of course.. It's all better now, and I am behind.. As usual.. But it did hone my flood skills, which might come in handy this time of year by the Gulf (where I am headed).. Nothing like a well trained guest.. Y'all be good, y'hear? And have a little fun, too.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe (and until I get back - Try High - Fly Safe - Drive Straight)

The Cinematic Voyeur
- Thursday, November 14, 1996 at 16:07:43 (CST)

Give theeee MAN a ceeegar for catching the deliberate misspelling!!! Thank god! I thought we had become a society of functional illiterates! Yayayayayayayaya [does the Opus the Penguin dance now] Until next time...

The WolfMistress <Olympus Mons>
- Thursday, November 14, 1996 at 10:48:28 (CST)

***TCV*** - I have no problem with enjoying a person's writing and/or opinions while still not agreeing with them. If my own curiosity is such, I don't care if The Creator said something is 'no good, don't waste your money', I will go anyway!! Sometimes I end up agreeing with the reviewers/critics; a lot of times I don't because I have my own take on whatever. When I said (countless times by now on this Board), I have an *open* mind, I meant exactly that. I will listen to anyone's pov about anything. What I do with it is my personal business. I can agree, disagree, or table it until further information is gathered. No insults or whatevers were intended by my remarks. Anyway, TCV, you're a member of the Family -- allowances have to be made! ;>) ;>)

JT <oak@leland.stanford.edu>
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 21:46:56 (CST)

Kids, Slippage has slipped right off the edge of the world. Deeellllllaaaaaayed. 4 -6 weeks. Big Harlan unhappy with the book upon return from das publisher.

keegan
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 16:29:25 (CST)

"voyeur"....I love that word! Too bad about the mangled spelling....

The Cinematic Yoyeur
OZ, of course, - Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 16:12:53 (CST)

Wolfmistress: You don't agree with any critic or reviewer, huh? Just voeyurs like *MOI*? Hahahahahahahah --urp-- As The Man say, "Did you use enough dynamite, Butch?"

Sue Luesse
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 13:58:38 (CST)

Now *this* is Fun.. How about, "It's nice to be nice to the nice." A bit of witty reparte in the movie Start The Revolution Without Me - an oldy with a wealth of one-liners, if little artistic merit. Anybody got a good one from In God We Trust (Marty Feldman's last movie, lamentably as hard to find as he is, now that he's dead)..

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 11:10:21 (CST)

"Laughter is the shock-absorber of life." -- from some totally forgettable cable movie. But the line stuck.

Sue Luesse
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 11:05:09 (CST)

It's a great life when weakness laughs, and outlasts the hassles to enjoy living.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Wednesday, November 13, 1996 at 09:47:54 (CST)

Fun. Who needs it? It's a good life if one does not weaken.

Keegan
- Tuesday, November 12, 1996 at 22:21:22 (CST)

Lawd, Barney! Forget the popcorn and just pass the Prozac! Most of those referents were familiar...could that be where my sense of fun's got to? :)

Anakin O'Hara <jedi@ziplink.net>
- Tuesday, November 12, 1996 at 21:51:49 (CST)

Keegan, Sue, Barney, thanks a lot, I hope to see you soon. Anakin

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
- Tuesday, November 12, 1996 at 21:20:23 (CST)

Schindler's List Aguirre: the Wrath of God Fitzcaralldo Until the End of the World Berlin Alexanderplatz the Seventh Seal Tetsuo: the Iron Man the Elephant Man Eraserhead Every Man For Himself and God Against All You can bring popcorn but it won't help. You want to escape? There is no escape. The ground is cold and we're all just a handfull of dust. Happy viewing.

keegan
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 18:10:57 (CST)

WM: I was only half-joking about my chat-room phobia. Thanks for the suggestions. Some I've seen; others I haven't so now I have some ideas for Friday when the man says, "Well, whaddayou wanna watch this weekend?".

WolfMistress <Kicking the Paingod....>
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 17:39:09 (CST)

**Keegan** -- Just curious -- you were joking, right, when you said a chat room *scared* you????

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
The Local Funhouse..., - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 17:11:29 (CST)

**KEEGAN** -- Since I never got back to you with the Halloween stuff, I'll make up for it with movie stuff. I live in the movies, on the cable movies stations, or in the video store. I have an awesome collection of tapes, having bought just about every movie I've ever liked! ID4 will be out on November 22. They are asking people to reserve a copy with a small deposit ($1.99) if you want to buy it. Otherwise, pick it up (if you can) at the video store for the night. A few others from the last 4 years: The Unforgiven, Dances With Wolves, Jurassic Park, Ghost, Mrs. Doubtfire (Robin Williams is to die for here!), Hook, Apollo 13, Rain Man (Dustin Hoffman is awesome), any of the Batman movies; (small independents) - Anything by the Merchant Ivory Group (Jefferson in Paris, Sense & Sensibility; The Coen Brothers (Miller's Crossing, Fargo; James & the Giant Peach (lovely story not just for kids), The Bridges of Madison County (Eastwood is tender as never seen before), if you don't mind the blood and gore, the Terminator movies, True Lies, Braveheart, Rob Roy, Pulp Fiction. Also for fun - Golden Eye (Pierce Brosnan is the sexiest Bond since Connery!). Yeah, try The Rock, too. You'll love it. More by e-mail if you want. And nevermind reviewers and critics. I haven't agreed with a critic or reviewer in 30 years!

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 16:06:36 (CST)

Hey, wait! I think I get it......fun! Why, there's a concept. At any rate, it would be a rental that'll make my man happy (it was one he mentioned *he* would like to see--"oh, that looks interesting" is about the extent of our cinema participation these days). Barney, I imagine if there's a buck or two-million to be made, they'll schlepp it out sooner or later. I don't get to the movies much. I tend to do concerts and our funds are limited. Only movies I've actually seen in a theater recently are kids' movies, "Toy Story" being the absolute best of those. In fact, I thought the plot was cool. It was....fun! A question: I haven't attended the movies regularly for about four years (the length of my sentence to motherhood so far). What movies of the last four years that I might have missed should I catch up on? What's your idea of an absolutely must see? Feel free to email with this info if you believe it's of no interest to anyone other than myself. Thanks!

Sue Luesse
If I lost a weekend, am I a lost child?? - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 14:46:16 (CST)

Been chewing on this 'critic' thingus.. Tastes like Preparation H, and looks like capers. What's wrong with things just being fun?? Not everything is supposed to be art. Motorcycles aren't art - but they sure are fun! Vacations aren't art - and nobody will argue about them being valuable and fun, if not necessary to mental health.. or turn one down.. So maybe ID4 isn't art. So what. If it's still fun, that has value. As for City On The Edge, I liked it when I saw it (don't ask, first TV run), but had that nagging feeling that there was a lot left out. Glad to hear that it wasn't a bit of underdone potato.. So, lessee - that's Edgeworks 2, Slippage, and City On The Edge vying for the next 'buy' that goes down.. Sssigghhh.. Things were easier when they came as manna from heaven at a used book store or garage sale one at a time.. Just snap up the Only Chance, and be done with it.. Now it's like trying to choose from the menu at a Chinese restaurant - I know what kind of meat I want, but there are too many choices to decide, because they are all good.. I think I need a nap. Maybe it will come to me in a dream.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
The Land of the Lost Idealists...., - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 13:46:09 (CST)

Somewhere below is my statement, in amongst others, that I happened to like ID4 very much. Yes, it was the old classic "Us against The Toadmen" plot. It was the **spin** they put on the plot, tho. But I'll not waste everyone's time by trying to open closed minds. It's a **dumb** idea, right? Why? Because Humanity is omnipotent in the Universe?? Because there is absolutely, positively no life out there that just might have the characteristics described in the movie?? Because it will never, ever, 100% surely never happen that something big enough to blot out the sun might appear some day and scare the bejeezus out of us?? Of course, there were holes in the plot, and a lot of the actions taken by various characters was totally over the top. That's not the point. IT WAS FUN!!!! For some of us, it was food for thot. But the point is it was FUN!! It was Saturday Matinee, B-movie wackiness for the sheer enjoyment of it!!! Why do you think it was such a hit?? Because there is very little in everyday life we can get really joyous about these days and ID4 served us up a doozy!! It was pure escape, period. And I for one, enjoyed the hell out of it! End of discussion on that topic! ;>)

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Monday, November 11, 1996 at 13:42:15 (CST)

Hey Keegan, do you think somebody will pick up ID4 for release to video. I don't know... we had to wait a long time for "City of Lost Children"... Speaking of Star Trek (put that head of lettuce down!) I wanted to mention (for the other anal retentive Ellison collector - I know you are out there) there is a big TPB/squarebound magazine format thingee out there currently called "Star Trek: 30 Years Special Collectors Edition" which is apparently published by Paramount or Viacom. It's $9.99 and has no isdn or issn # that I could find. It has about a half a page on Harlan along with the best reproduction of the "sabre tooth photo" I've seen so far. Ironically, it's larger than the Roddenberry photo in the same section (hah!). If you already have any sort of concordance material it's fairly redundant, but as a quick overview of the whole phenomena I've seen plenty worse. Complete episode guide, etc. Hey Rick, does Leslie K. Swigart ever check in here? Later, Barney.

keegan
- Monday, November 11, 1996 at 00:47:25 (CST)

Sorry, Anakin. It never ocurred to me that you were paying out bread for the chat room. I'm just not a chat kind of chick so I don't know a whole hell of a lot about how it works. I entered a HoT wIrEd chat room once and it scared me. Besides, now that I've been on the 'Net for over a year, the romance is over and I don't surf with the voracity I once did. Webderland, I love. I like to write these little meaningless messages in a bottle. But chat, hmmmmm, I'm just not sure, so I go through these avoidance behaviors. I'm sorry to have not shown up sooner. I'm just kind of jaded on the whole Internet thing these days. I've made one or two "Real" friends, and I've seen some neat stuff; I sure as hell know a lot more about Harlan Ellison, but the bloom is off the digital rose. I had grand dreams; but now I think it's just another toy. I'll come out and play, still. But play nice, 'cause my heart breaks easily......maybe that explains my chat fear; maybe not. **AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!! POSTING ON THE TOPIC OF A HARLAN ELLISON WORK!!!!** (ta-dah!). I just finished reading the script for "City on the Edge of Forever" and this is what I have to say: 1)thanks for the truth, HE. I sensed that the Rodenberry biography I read was full of shit. Good to have that sense confirmed (I'm talking about the "Star Trek Creator" book that virtually canonized Rodenberry). Don't start throwing stuff. I like Star Trek in general, but I have a peeve about those who try to make gods out of any human (and for the record, that even includes HE). 2)HE's story was far more colorful and meaningful than the aired version (which believe me, I loved, loved, loved before reading the script). I believe HE is right to believe that the strength of that episode is due to something that survived network neutering. After reading the script, I prefer the beautiful and ballsy images of the original. I can see why HE would want to forget the mutilation and move on. Since the mythmakers would not allow the controversy around "City" to die, I am pleased that Mr. Ellison was forthcoming with the script and the truth. I hope he sells copies in the millions. And BARNEY, as for Ellison using second- and third- hand info to blast ID4, well, yes...in a perfect world I guess Harlan would have written every single word of his fustigation himself. I got the idea that he was saying, "Hey, look--I know you all loved this thing but it wasn't that big a deal. See? These guys, including this guy who I can't pronounce, they feel pretty much the same way". Yeah, HE might castigate any one of us for pulling the same kind of shit, but hey, there's yet more evidence of Harlan's complete, unmitigated humanity! For the record: I didn't see ID4. I got wind of the plot, and being the civilly cynical type that I am, opted not to. No elitism here; just not interested in special fx and "rah-rah-kick-the- aliens'-butt type movies". *sigh* HE (and Peter David and Mr. Whoozit) tell me I made the right decision, but if somebody convinces me I'm culturally deprived, there's always video.....

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, Pa. USA - Sunday, November 10, 1996 at 09:58:23 (CST)

Anakin: Regarding the chat room. Speaking for myself, while I have nothing against chat forums, I only get over to Webderland about twice a week and this is my most obsessivly visited site on the net. I find I like to "walk away" from discussions that interest me and let them percolate before responding. This hardly lends itself to the immediacy of chat. I also sometimes feel (despite the evidence of # of hits and the posting of "get wells" this summer) that there are only 6-7 people keeping Webderland going as it is. It's not that I am ignoring this, I just don't have time to participate in any meaningful way. On the other hand, do chat rooms have an archive feature? Wouldn't mind catching up during some stupid ice storm! Speculative Fiction,science fiction, fantasy,sci-fi,scientifiction, Folks, I gotta say this "arguement"/ "discussion"/ exchange of ideas bores the *ss off me. And I am not saying this out of any feelings regarding the participants to date. Crack open any anthology from this genre from 1945-1970 and the editor spends the first few paragraphs defining the genre or deferring to someone elses definition and the rest of the intro. trying to justify it's existence. Boring It's simply the 20th century lit. equivalent of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". Yesterday I encountered this conundrum in person at an antiquarian bookstore where one of the customers ( a univ. prof. who taught spec. fic.) thought we ought to seperate the fantsy from Science fiction (he thought I worked there/ happens all the time). He felt one of these genres was inherintly superior to the other but it doesn't pertain to this discussion. I quickly stumped him with about 10 examples from the Lovecraft/Derelith/Dunsany/Clark Ashton Smith/Bloch/Bradbury category. It was fun and easy. MY point is that the (Swiftian) solution would be to put it all in alphabetical order by author with spine/genre designation prohibited and let it all sink or swim on its own merits. I know, I'm just another one of those whacked in the head utopians. On another front, since it's been over a week since I said something regarding Harlan, I thought I would take this opportunity to shoot myself in the other foot so when he decides to kick me to death I wont be able to run. Today's sci-fi buzz editorial on ID4. I watched it and chuckled in agreement with every single point that was made concerning the DUMBNESS of this movie. Allow me to say here that one can enjoy dumb things. One simply has to lower ones expectations. But here is what bugged me. First of all, he lets Peter David's column do all the work for him. I could be a brilliant critic if I were allowed to read John Simon on television the next day. I suspect Harlan's justification would be, one hardly has to bring all of ones critical faculties to bear to trash a film as simple as ID4 and in that regard he would be correct. But in the process of doing this he uses the work of someone who is already being quoted in Peter David's column. Now we have a third hand source and Harlan isn't even sure how to say his name. I thought this was a real lapse from someone who uses epigraphs as liberally as he does and who I have witnessed upbraid other people (hell, other Writers) for getting even part of a quote wrong.Surely Harlan can appreciate the notion of credit-where-credit-is-due. Especially when someone else did his work for him. Expecting to die a harder death than Rasputin, Barney Dannelke (HERC #1)

Anakin O'Hara <MSkywalker@hotmail.com>
A Galaxy, far, far, away, Jedi Academy Yavin IV - Saturday, November 09, 1996 at 00:54:11 (CST)

Hi Guys, can you listen to me for a moment? I feel like I'm being ignored, what is it? Is it Star Wars? Well, Harlan did like Empire. I set up the chat room to be like the nice person, that I am, but it seems, no one is coming in and chatting? Is it me, what did I do that was so wrong? Maybe I should stop being nice and pull it, because I am paying $25.00 a month for ten people, to rent that room. I don't know what I'm going to do, ok here's the deal, anyone who wants the chat room to stay, or anyone who thinks it's a waste of time and money, please E-Mail me. Oh what's the use, I'm going to be ignored again anyway. I hope I didn't upset anyone, but I'm very upset myself and I don't know what the Hell to do.

keegan
- Friday, November 08, 1996 at 23:15:50 (CST)

Jason-thanks for the explanation about where your melody/harmony thing cames from. Now you know why they say the things they say about singers. :) As for the fanboy thing, it just seems to me that you're too het-up about this skiffy thing. After all, I personally don't care where the bookstore shelves HE as long as I can find him at all. Sometimes, *I* think he belongs in the poetry section. In a way, that's a battle for writers to fight, not me. I just want to read decent stories. I know that in this conversation, I was initially frustrated (no pun intended) by your use of sf/SF/science fiction. The capital v. lower-case letters were meaningless to me (much as chord symbols and orchestral scores might be to you). I didn't have much to go by, but was interested in your question, so I put out my two cents in a general way. Next post from you says, "Whoa" and just confused me further. I've really been trying to understand, but quite frankly, I don't find the topic of genre all that compelling. The antagonistic tone that slowly crept into posts further turned me off. I had to reply to the music thing simply because it was a parallel to the "hairsplitting" you seemed to be attempting to do with books. The only judgement I have to make is that you didn't express your original question in clearly understandable english (at least not to me, since I'm barely a fan--call me a wannabe if it makes you feel better). I think some of us tried to engage in conversation, but you were unsuccessful in really bringing your point across to us. BTW: what *was* your point?

Jason
- Friday, November 08, 1996 at 22:25:04 (CST)

Keegan, I personally don't know that much about music. I asked my friend who sings in a choir and studied opera for an illogical sentence using musical terms, and that's what he said. Nothing else I can say. No rhetoric just facts. I never claimed "hit an opponent hard enough..." is my philosophy, it is a strategy for winning a debate. A debate is a formalized discussion where there is a winner. I never said this was a debate. I never said Nazi fascism and neither did Rick. Fascism is the wrong word anyway. And we weren't complaining because people were divided into two groups, that's a common thing for people to do. (the old joke being, I believe there are two groups of people, those that divide people into two groups and those who don't) the complaint was that Rick felt that Sue was advocating that artists should seperated from the general populace and treated differently and to him and me unfairly because of their differences. For me that resonated with what the Nazi's did. My post is on the third of September if you want to read it. Although I'm not sure how it applies to the current discussion. I never judged a writer calling him/her a hack writer. I have expressed an opinion on a piece of of work that has been produced, and I have found it faulty, and flawed. I make no judgements as to the abilities of a writer on the basis of one story or screenplay. The only emotion I have with regards to the discussion is my growing frustration that my point is not coming across. I did not create that definition of sci-fi, I called it my definition because it is not a universal definition, but there several who share it, I said to Rob Saywer I think there is s-f and there is sci-fi, and he understood what I'd said, I had said the same thing to my science fiction proffessor and he understood what I'd said, and further conversation confirmed that we were on the same page, so to speak. I was under the belief the topic was my definition, and the problems people had with it, and therefore I did stick to the discussion. I am not proud of being one of those people who comes under rule 10. I did in fact apologize for being one of those people. I will say this however, where would the world be if there weren't people around who threw logic and reasoning out the window and dared to fight the impossible fight? When I used that reference I meant that there are some things I cannot let go of, because I cannot shake the feeling that doing so would be wrong. I never said I was just like HE. Nor did I intimate that point. I do not intentionaly attack anyone personally, I am attacking what are paralogical arguments. I will end this with two questions; One, how do I fit the profile of a Xenogenistic fanboy? And two, who is being judgemental against who? Jason

Sue Luesse <let's not>
- Friday, November 08, 1996 at 13:20:04 (CST)

Unca Harlans advises us to challenge what is unacceptable rather than let silence be mistaken for agreement and/or support. With that in mind, I write this once, so it will be clear what is unacceptable and why. Recent 'discussions' have a familiar ring to them. A discussion of Artist Rights rolls into yet another installment of Jason's rant against 'crap', and results in a flame-out of me.. Hmmm.. Deja vu? Flashback? Let's step into the Way-Back Machine, and check this out.. Yes, there it is - Sept. 2 - where Jason writes he gets 'pretty intense' rather than appologize for ugly personal attacks, and informs us his philosophy is "Hit an adversary hard enough they tend to stumble through the rebuttal and you're more likely to win the debate." That is a Might Makes Right statement, and not appropriate for a discussion forum, where the object is to share and learn from diverse opinions. There is nothing *to* 'win at any cost'. In a peculiar irony, the conlcuding statement of that post is Jason, speaking for Rick, explaining why the intense flame-out of me was warranted by the fact that dividing people into groups is Nazi Facism... specificly, dividing people into artists and hacks.. And it was a silly, justified, easily understood error that my stand AGAINST judgementalism of any sort was flamed for SUPPORTING it. Yes, the logic of that is clear as a bell.. And my conclusion is that there is no point in discussion with people adhering to a Win At Any Cost By Any Means philosophy - so I will not reply to the shotgun mudslinging of incoherant emotional bullying that is hurled at me with such gusto, with the sole intention of being 'right' and 'winning' (not to mention the self-proclaimed purpose of 'revenge' -though for what is completely obscure). I do respond to the philosophy. Negatively. If you want to be respected, respect others with at least as much respect as you give yourself. If you want to have an 'informed' opinion, research the facts, and include all of them in your opinion, using logic rather than emotion. If you want to be 'taken seriously', show the intellectual capacity to stick to the topic of discussion rather than 'create definitions' to further a lost cause, and accomodate more than a single POV, rather than attack what doesn't 'fit' an arbitrarily predetermined conclusion. If you think you are intelligent, show do it by exhibiting the attributes of open-mindedness, curiousity, tolerance, and acceptance rather than using emotional bullying and personal attack to silence any perceived opposition. And to the last statement made - yes, Jason, you are a number 10 on the Driving The Spikes measure - which is not something to be proud of. It means you are not subject to reason or logic in the pursuit of your 'win' and and 'revenge', because no amount of truth will penetrate or defer your chosen path. You choose to wrap yourself in a Fanboy mantle of misapproriated phrases scavenged from Ellison's writing and misinterpreted to justify yourself as being 'just like HE'.. And you expect everyone else to treat you as they would Ellison, as if you were peers. But you are unlike Ellison in all the important ways. Ellison wrote a famous essay on fanboys - Xenogenisis. You fit the profile. I have said all I am going to on this. If you don't like it - learn to use the e-mail. I put it in the public forum, this time only, because it is the stage for your performances.

keegan
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 22:36:25 (CST)

Jason-Harmony and melody can be combined. Melody can be sung or played alone and may imply harmony or be atonal. Harmony can be played alone, in block chords without an apparent melody. A melody may then be combined with that harmony, either consonantly or dissonantly for specific musical effects (music is a series of tensions created and released). When I scat sing, I combine the melodic ideas from my mind with the harmonic ideas generated by the rhythm section. You wanna split hairs? Okay. I'll split a couple of my own and all is fair. Don't like my take on the word "combined"? Music is an abstract phenomena and I can use any words that work to describe it. It's kind of like dancing about math.

Jason
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 21:50:05 (CST)

The sentence in the previous post that reads 'By the I did offer substansiate my judgement Sue... Should read By the way I did offer at substansiating my Judgement. Sue... It was an insert that got screwed up.

Jason <Let's try this again>
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 21:31:12 (CST)

Sorry WM I hope this'll be over soon, but I'm one of those people that HE describes under Rule 10 in Driving in the Spikes. Sue pay attention to what I'm putting on the board, not what you THINK I'm putting on the board. I know sci-fi is a derogatory term, I use it as such, on an indvidual basis. If I think a story is crap, I call it crap. It just so happens that if the story was intended to be a science fiction story, I call it sci-fi. I have criteria for calling something crap or sci-fi, and I know whether or not it falls into the criteria that determines if something is crap or not. If I do not like a science fiction story, that does not mean it is crap or sci-fi. If I don't like something and call it sci-fi, then I am calling sci-fi because it fits the criteria. Cliched and predictable plots, scientific illiteracies (a little more serious that innaccuracies, e.g. A Solar star) Etc... etc... The main response I seem to be getting is that most people are telling me a little inaccuracy is okay, did I ever say that it had to be perfect? Where did I say that? The example I used was negative proton molecules, whoever wrote that has no idea what a proton or a molecule is. Protons are by definition positive and they're subatomic particles, molecules are bonded atoms. Protons cannot be molecules. It's like saying I loved the way you combined the harmony and the melody. The story itself made as much sense as that statement. (To be fair about Lost in Space when it was made, a lot less was known about space travel. {I still don't think it was as tongue-in-cheek as you think it is WM} With all the information available today tv and movies don't have that excuse. Look I never mentioned H.G. Wells or Jules Verne or Shelley. I like their stories, because they are good storytellers. Don't defend stories I didn't attack. By the I did offer substantiate my judgement Sue how are these people supposed to respond and or learn from my criticism when it's likely that I will never have contact with these people? I'm am neither Siskel nor Ebert, it isn't my job, if however I want to warn a friend to save eight bucks i'll pass on what I learned. If I was a critic I'd do it differently, but I'm not so I ain't. Oh, and about HE's "Lack of credentials" That's not really my statement it's yours Sue. You said "If judgements just _have_ to be made about the artistic merit of a work, I prefer to accept those of the writers who have some personal, first hand, successful experience with the process of creating art. Like Harlan Ellison." By that rationale you would prefer to have someone who has has two screenplays produced into films judge the worthiness of a produced screenplay because Harlan has had only one. Also, by YOUR thought HE wouldn't be preferable to judge Novels compared to someone like Grisham or Rice or Bova or Pohl, because HE hasn't published a novel since 1961. A novel is a different art form than a short story trust me. I don't agree with this, this is the explanation of your statement. Also, you don't have to able to write a story to be able to tell a good story from bad, you just have to have read a lot of good stories and a lot of bad stories and know which story is which. I suggest reading this post carefully and twice before you try and flame me, and make sure you're flaming what I posted. I don't want to do this again but I will if I have to. Jason

DTS <Mark Twain's home state>
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 17:06:30 (CST)

FYI: if any other of you "Dream Corridor" junkies are looking for HEDC Quarterly VOl. 2 -- Tim Tran (Dark Horse) says that it is "in the bucket" (whatever that means), but that no release date has been set. Out, here -- DTS

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Combing the March Hare...., - Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 17:00:38 (CST)

I believe the discussion below started with Hugo Gernsbeck in the 1920's when he created a magazine that printed "scientifiction" stories. Prior to that time, the so-called 'genre' was populated by Mary Wallstonecroft Shelley, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, Arthur Conan Doyle, and Edgar Allen Poe, among others who gave no particular 'name' to their works -- they just wrote, period. I think this whole thing is more an offshoot of HE's personal and very passionate aversion to having his works categorized in **ANY** way. He crusaded for years to have them moved out of the 'SF' section of bookstores whether they called it speculative fiction, sci-fi, or sf -- HE didn't (and still doesn't) like having his work 'labelled' as anything other than the Work of Harlan Ellison. I am aware of the negative connotations 'sci-fi' has brought to the field as opposed to 'sf' or 'speculative fiction' even, but I pay about as much attention to it as I do critics' reviews, or derogatory labels of any kind. If a quick scan of a book catches my interest, I buy and read it, I don't care what you call it. I don't "suspend my disbelief"; I suspend my *Belief* - in the world as it is and/or has been proven to be up to that point where proof fails and certain things still remain. My mind is completely open to possibility when I am reading for enjoyment. Yes, I make mental note when a 'hard' science fact is totally trashed or a currently impossible one is presented as fact, but some are readily accepted by sci-fi & sf alike. Take faster-than-light travel -- every writer worth anything in the field has made use of FTL, even though the current state of physics claims it's impossible. 'Warp speed' is part of the American lexicon, whether we can achieve it or not. And it is accepted even among people who hate Star Trek! So, I guess my point is that you're both right in a way, depending on how you look at the stuff. It's a matter of opinion, like ID4. I know it was a classic plot, but it was a new way of doing it in my opinion. No, one alien invasion is not gonna make Humanity bond in the space of a day or two -- but it sure felt good when it was happening on-screen! It was a 'feel good' movie, not scientific gospel. I enjoyed it as much, but in a different way, from the way I enjoy Lost in Space reruns. I am old enough to appreciate the tongue-in-cheek humor that people mistook for seriousness back when. OK? Everybody still friends?? ;>)!

Sue Luesse
A rumble, I thought it was an empty tummy - Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 16:17:31 (CST)

JASON - re-read your Ellison quote. It is exactly what I said in the first place. Sci-Fi is a perjorative term used to denigrate works. It is despised by writers BECAUSE it trivializes content and workmanship, without offering any concrete substantiation for the judgment. "Use it at your own peril," I believe was the advice given. Good advice. Make your arguements as you will to justify and rationalize - but the fact remains that every time you use Sci-Fi vs. s-f in voicing your opinions, you do exactly what HE and others would have you NOT do. You judge the artistic merit and quality of another persons work, without the honesty of legitimate criticism which they could possibly respond to or learn from. Somehow, I doubt that your informed opinion is of the caliber of Ellison's, regardless of his 'lack of credentials' in your eyes. I rather think you missed the mark badly on that call.

Jason <Let's get ready to Rrrruuuummmbllle>
- Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 15:35:16 (CST)

An Edge in my Voice, Edgeworks vol. 1 Pg 195 "I'd like to point out to my readers that while the philological construct 'sci-fi' is in wide and common use, mostly for the convienience of bored city desk headline writers who save space and wearying cerebration with the five letters and hyphen, instead of the fourteen letters and mid-space of 'science fiction,' this is a label that many, of those of us who work in the genre, despise. They compare it calling a woman a 'broad,' a black man a 'nigger,' a Latino a 'spick' and a Jew a 'kike.' Use it at your peril." Sci-fi isn't a genre, at least not an intentional one. Sci-fi is failed science fiction. It is the film Outland, look at Edgeworks to see why. It is a film or story that doesn't allow for the suspension of disbelief, they came up with an explanation for why things can beamed, I can suspend my disbelief. I cannot suspend my disbelief on phrases like negative proton molecules. Sci-fi stories does not have good writing in my informed opinion. I'm lumping together all the movies and stories that fail to do what they should do and that is tell an interesting and enjoyable story. They do not achive verisilimitude. Sci-fi is the name I give to those stories. Like B-movies. *SUE* Why? All critics do that, they just use a number of stars or thumbs up or thumbs down. I never said it wasn't subjective, it's my informed opinion on what is a good story and what isn't. *Sue* according to your rationale, He can't critique films, because he only writes screenplays and isn't involved with the other aspects of film making like directing or acting. Plus he's only had one screenplay produced. I wouldn't call that successful, considering he's written several. Yes you feel better if your work is judged great by your peers. That doesn't mean the opinions of those who aren't your peers are necessarily invalid. Dos that clear things up a bit? Jason

Sue Luesse <jaluess@htonline.com>
I've gotta good one.., oops.. shoot.. I had a good one there - Thursday, November 07, 1996 at 11:02:41 (CST)

Well, I went back and read your posts, *JASON*, where you state the purpose of Sci-Fi is to give s-f a bad reputation.. Nowhere is specualtive fiction mentioned (I included it, along with other variant forms in my response). It is rather bald to make a division between Sci-Fi and s-f based solely on *your* personal judgment of the literary merit of anothers work, and use the label Sci-Fi as an artistic garbage can. I don't think justifying the practise by citing guilty notables, or protesting authors is a good rationale, either. Authors are free to dicker with critics about terminology applied to their works. Substituting Sci-Fi for "crap", and s-f for "art", does not change the subjective judgements made about the quality and merit of a work. Most writers are well aware of the use of such euphemisms to disparage without reason, and respond to the hidden agenda. It is ridiculous for the reading public to accept such blatantly false labelling, when the writers have gone to such leangths to point out the hidden agenda and debunk it. If judgements just _have_ to be made about the artistic merits of a work, I prefer to accept those of the writers who have some personal, first hand, successful experience with the process of creating art. Like Harlan Ellison. Otherwise, it is just how much I enjoyed it for whatever silly reasons I have. Ditto for the rest of the Audience.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan <like a dog to vomit>
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 21:24:26 (CST)

My husband and I were reading the Board together and talking about this sf/SF, skiffy-wiffy thang. First off, it wasn't just me. My husband was confused, too. Jason are your talking sci-fi v. SPEC Fi? I assume that's what you were saying, but it took me a while to figure out. That's one reason I answered so generally. The wittle wetters tax me wittle bwain. Seriously, though. It *was* confusing for one who's not such a "fanboy" in these things (don't bristle; I'm only using that term to express a point. I'm not passing any judgements or putting anyone down). Anyway, we were talking about it and I mentioned that good writing should invoke a suspension of disbelief. My man said, "Yeah. I don't find scientific improbabilities or impossibilities so annoying as I find inconsistencies *within* the framework of a story to be. For example, "beaming" in Star Trek just ain't gonna happen, but it's a consistent feature within the show's premise of future technologies so I can buy it". (okay, so he didn't word it *just* like that, but that was the jist of it). What do you think?

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 17:52:49 (CST)

**JASON** -- will do. Probably was after I left and before I came back. Will check Archives and get back to you. Thanks for the point in the right direction.

James C. Hess <104656.765@Compuserve.com>
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 14:55:53 (CST)

This may have nothing to do with the thread we all are creating here about works in their various forms or it may have everything to do with it. FYI: As you may know I write a column on films, movies, and television. Have done so for almost six years. Anyway, short version here: The *50th* installment will soon be published and to note this occassion I have agreed to a special, limited edition of said installment. (Not to worry, you can find the regular installment Out There somewhere as well.) Contained in this collector's edition will be the 50th installment, the first installment of the said column every published, a series of never-before published interviews with yours truly, The Not-So Cuddly One, a new introduction especially written for this edition, and essays by those wacky Editor-God type persons who have put up with me and my writings through the years. This edition, being a limited edition, will consist of fifty copies ONLY. (No word on the mass-market possibility...yet.) Each of those copies will be numbered and signed by MOI. And all profits realized from this endeavor will be used to help fight illiteracy in the U.S. No pitchman hyperbole here, but the 5th Anniversay Edition SOLD OUT before it was released and this item will probably do the same, so first come first served. If y'all want to know more--price, release date, blah, blah, blah--e-mail me at the above address and I'll wing the particulars in your general direction. Now, to unfinished works left by their creators: Burn 'em. No one can know specifically what the creator had in mind when working on them and if they were any good they would have been finished by said creator before said creator passed on. Until next time... Jim

keegan
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 14:53:30 (CST)

Jason- I think that any critic who is trying to dismiss the genre of sci-fi because of hack writing is a hopeless hack themselves. That's such an outdated view that it could hardly be taken seriously (as the quote that appeared from Ray Bradbury makes clear). A book of any genre can be art or it can be crap. Can't dismiss an entire genre based on the dreck contained therein. No, I don't place HE in the sci-fi genre except as an occasional joke (I like to play with fire). HE's stuff is far to broad to be categorized anyway. I can live without labels and hell, I can live with a little poor science as long as the STORY is a compelling one and the faulty science doesn't get in the way or become overly pervasive. H.G. Wells comes to mind for some reason...... Anyway, another two cents (geesh! Y'all probably have enough for dinner at Maxim's right about now).

Jason
ca - Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 14:49:35 (CST)

p.p.s HE only talks about unfinished or inconplete work Stuff that's done and just unpublished, at the time, was not mentioned. One must ask HE about that.

Jason
- Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 14:35:54 (CST)

Keegan, sci-fi is a term, all professional s-f writers despise. And no Sci- Fi as I define it, is not art. It's hack writing that is invariably used by the critics when they try to dismiss the whole science fiction genre. Sci-fi and S-F are as different as a Harlequin romance and Wuthering Heights. Calling HE a sci-fi writer is like volunteering to catching a falling H-bomb. My personal defintion for sci-fi is bad SF or they use futuristic or fantastic technology without understanding the science behind it. The phrase, I've been bombarded with negative proton molecules is an excellent example. (I actually heard that phrase mentioned on tv.) Anything that puts the prefix astro- or cyber- on something ordinary e.g. astrobroom or cyberbook is a good clue to sci-fi, unfortunately most people don't get it and they use the term sci-fi as a generalality(sp?). As for ID4, I felt they spent all that money to put on the old and cliched, Earth vs. the Martians story. When I read that the character that Jeff Goldblum played was written with him in mind, because they envisioned him to be the exact same expository character that he played in Jurrasic Park and Powder whose basic function is to explain things to the audience I wept for the joke Goldblum's career would become if he didn't find a different role soon. Gotta go talk more later jason. p.s. WM we went over this argument a while back, check the most recent archive to see what I have to say, I don't have time to type about both subjects at the moment. I think HE's essay on the subject, which you can find on the main page under 'The words of Harlan Ellison' Sums up what HE feels to be his obligations to the reader.

Sue Luesse
I got a nosebleed, and the returns are in.. - Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 14:02:45 (CST)

Well, Krikies Sandy, from nose-picking to nit-picking quicker than Daddy Warbucks can write a check to 'fix' things.. Such a life! *JASON* unless you are going to maintain that s-f (S-F, Sci-Fi, Science Fiction, Speculative Fiction, Fantasy, etc.) are not creative literary works with the potential to be art, I fail to see where your distinctions apply. Keegan and I responded in the broader terms of art, rather than the narrow (and somewhat fuzzy distinctions) of specific forms - so the responses apply as much to s-f (ibid) as any other form of art. *BARNEY* apply same principle of logical inference from a general to specifics re: HE works posthumous treatment. I am not disagreeing with you. I just don't go any further into it than the obvious conclusion that what happens posthumously is beyond his, or my, control - and can't justify putting time and energy into it, when there are plenty of things I can worry, analyze, and DO something about efectively instead. Simple minds, simple pleasures... ;-) .. and I know how much you *love* my emoticons, so have another.. 0}8-)~ .. Ohhh GEEeez.. The local referendum on hunting went down, so it looks like we'll be licking our lips while Bambi fries for the forseeable future. Yummm.. And your little rabbit friend, too, my pretty.. The whole issue was kinda strange, since it focussed on bear hunting - and we hardly have any bears left around here, so the only 'hunting' is done by the State Dept. of Natural Resources - but the attrocities committed by bears and bear hunters (all filmed in glorious graphic technocolor - in other states) was the focus of campaigning, despite being a moot point here. Now the deer, rabbit, quail, pheasant, etc. hunting - that was a viable, if invisible, issue.. And it was decided by how people felt about bears.. Hhhhmmm.. Really makes me wonder about how people vote.. Or should I say, it makes me question harder what it is people *really* mean when they say they are _thinking_... Sssigghhh.. I think I'll lock the doors and stay home today.. Those people drive, too.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
The Twilight Zone of The Outer Limits Night Gallery...., - Wednesday, November 06, 1996 at 12:59:21 (CST)

Well, isn't this a lovely flap going on here??!! Unfortunately, this job is a **real** job for a change -- one in which I actually have to work most of the day! Leaves little time for online chat, and since I'm here till 6 or 7 and the drive home is nearly an hour -- I have no desire to go near the Taz-Monster Machine at home! **Jason** - Personally, I think ID4 is SF, but that's a personal opinion. However, I have mixed enotions when it comes to posthumous publication of remaining or unfinished works. I remember a number of people had a hizzy-fit when The Silmarillion was published, like this was some sort of sacrilege against Tolkein's memory or something. I loved every word of it, myself. Also, August Derleth's daughter has found an incredible mass of unpublished works in her father's house (it's here in Wisc., up near Appleton, I think. It was all over the Sunday papers a month or so back). The works were handwritten and locked away in a hidden drawer in Derleth's desk or something. Anyway, she fully intends to publish all finished works and will have someone who knew her father's style properly finish the ones that are not complete. Now, since I've always loved **anything** Lovecraftian and/or heavily mysterious, I own just about everything Derleth himself ever wrote. I would very much like to see the **completed** works he left. As for the unfinished ones done by someone else -- I'm not so sure. No matter how well you know an author's style -- there is no way in heaven you can re-create it! It's been tried. So I guess I would have to say "Yes, publish any COMPLETED works left unpublished.", **No** to trying to finish incomplete ones or making any other kinds of changes to the original works. I thinks that is an abomination and an affront to the person's talent and personal dignity. Being a writer myself, I can fully understand Harlan's desire to have his remaining works destroyed, but where does that leave a writer's obligation to his readers? Any more comments or replies???? See ya later, Gang! **Barney** - will get the rest of the list to you hopefully before the end of the week!

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. USA - Tuesday, November 05, 1996 at 23:47:11 (CST)

Sue, (and all the rest of you hiding under your seats) while I would agree that literary estates often spin off into unexpected directions, or avenues of revenue, that's not quite what I am talking about. I also need to be more clear on one or two other things. First, regarding your "buy no unauthorized Ellison" statement. I cannot say I would support this sentiment if it denied me certain things. In my own library I have a few variant editions of Kipling and Conrad where the author, shortly before death (or the authors estate, afterwords) decided to clean up certain works. By this, I mean anything from deleted epigraphs and postscripts to whole stories gone missing. As a result, particularly with Kipling, I have a number of "Complete Poetry" and "Authorized Complete Works" that are anything but. Now, some of this is miscelanea, to be sure, but some of it is most definitly not. This is an example of the author and the authors heirs streamlining the authors output, sometimes for brevity and clarity and, sometimes, to make that writer seem better, or more consistant then they ever were in life. This is a diservice to the reader and posterity. Harlan talks about "this years completist" and this I do worry about. I would not pay good money for any fiction by any author extrapolated from one of his stories. I shudder at the thought of a sequel to "Jefty is Five" or, equally horrible, a "novel length expansion" of said story. Picture that noise Homer Simpson makes when contemplating his Sister-in-laws. Rex Stout was correct. "There is enough Nero and Archie. Find some other characters. Leave mine the hell alone." A few years ago I wouldn't have worried at all about this. It is my understanding that Robert Silverberg is to be the literary executor. This may have changed. I don't know. But I do know that Silverberg "expanded" "Nightfall" and "The Ugly Little Boy". It boggles my mind that the author of "Nightwings" and "Dying Inside" would stoop to this.What this speaks to is that I no longer trust Silverberg's judgement the way I did 10 years ago. It probably doesn't matter. Harlan's work simply doesn't lend itself to this kind of literary graverobbing. Other than "Medea", there is no Harlanverse to muck about in. Also, I would argue, the authorial voice is to eclectic and to strong. Easy to parody, hard to do right. Onward... What I am saying, is that those things which have seen the light of day, even if they're not pretty, ought not be swept under the rug or revised out of existence. And, yes, you, back there behind the concrete pillar in the garage with the trenchcoat talking like Stephen Hawking,speak up! "Doomsman", you ask? "Sex Gang", you say? Yes, those malformed children as well. A telephone book of that stuff will not take away one bit of the quality of "Repent..." or "The Pale Silver Dollar of the Moon Pays It's Way and Makes Change". Bring em on. That's your worst case scenario and it doesn't frighten me in the least. What I don't want to loose is the equivalent of "the Trouble Starts at Eight" (these are Neider's Mark Twain after dinner speeches) or, even, "The Mysterious Stranger". But, in the case of "Stranger", I want the uncorrupted text. To review: I don't ever need to see "Shrikes:a work in progress" or "Bloods A Rover" by Harlan Ellison and Edward Bryant. I just don't want things that I've already seen go away like some Orwellian cropped photo. And the LETTERS. Don't forget now. Slippage? Well, sure officer, I talk to myself sometimes and, whats that? No, no, I wasn't gonna sleep here, ok I'm goin now...

keegan <happy liberal>
- Tuesday, November 05, 1996 at 22:51:41 (CST)

Jason--Whoa, right back! What the hell are you talking about-sf v. SF? I don't get it. Clarify if you'd care to. BTW, no shame in reading Playboy. When I was in high-school, it was a good source for "evidence" for debate team topics. Now, I just look at the pictures and read the party jokes.

Jason
- Tuesday, November 05, 1996 at 21:54:57 (CST)

Whoa keegan, Sue I asked for the purpose of s-F not Sci-Fi. Sci-Fi's purpose is to give s-f a bad name. ID4 is Sci-Fi, Lost in space was Sci-fi let's keep the two distinct. I pretty much agree with what Ray Bradbury said. (How sweet someone's embarassed to admit they read Playboy) I've read the interview. (yes that means I've read the magazine, I pick it up occasionally. So does Ray Bradbury, HE suscribed to it, I'm in good company, let's leave it at that.) Rob Sawyer, suggest that S-F's purpose is to present a rational world view. While everyone goes off ranting about alien invasions, and psychic advisors. S-F should be saying, "Whoa hold on let's look at what's actually possible." Where does that put shows like X-Files and Star Trek? How about into the realm of Techno-Fantasy? I like that, 'Techno-Fantasy'™ Jason, November 5th 1996. Oh, speaking of Star Trek. Check out this week's episode of Star Trek DS9. It's called 'Trials and Tribbleations' It has a couple of plot holes, but they only really hit me after the show was over. Otherwise it's a great ride.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Exit Poll, Average USA - Tuesday, November 05, 1996 at 21:34:42 (CST)

So here I am, picking my nose waiting for the election results.. So I'll know whether I should lean to the left or to the right to ease the transition while I'm grabbing my ankles and grinning.. *Love* those pollyticks.. And shouldn't there be a dip, or a spray that will cure the condition?? It's so tedious holding the flame to their feet, and picking them off one at a time - especially when it's an infestation.. And God forbid you leave the head of even one embedded.. I understand it causes retardation, and costs a fortune to treat.. Sssigghh... *BARNEY* Well put. Sad fact of life is, that no art is immune from the profit-takers after the artist is not there to protect it - and all the highest moral principles and wishful thinking won't change that. Wills are broken, contracts re-written, ownership is bought and sold, and control goes with it. NO, that does not mean art ceases to be art when business asserts itself. Nor does it mean that I support the fact as some sick moral highground. It means business, like it or not, WILL have it's way with art eventually (like flies on shit when an artist dies) - and the only way to mitigate that risk is to rely on the 'market' to make abuse and perversions unprofitable. So, grit your teeth, and repeat after me - "I will buy no unauthorized HE." Used as a mantra for a sufficient period of time, it offers some small immunity to the seductions of advertising.. And some small hope that Ellisons wishes will be honored.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. USA - Monday, November 04, 1996 at 17:47:45 (CST)

Ah, yes. The Ellison bulletin board. In blinding Pisstavision. Pesky typos. Hey Rick! Just to prove that cardiac patients living 3,000 miles from my door don't frighten me much by staring down there nose at me over their QVC beta blocker raybans, I'd like the fellow travellers here at Ellison Webderland to consider a few issues not considered (at least to my satisfaction) by Harlan on this weeks SCIFIBUZZ editorial. Before listing my problems (or exceptions), a little background. The 1st time I heard Harlan mention the possibility of destroying unfinished work was around 1983 and because of my age and a few other mitigating factors I was shocked and I suppose worried, as apparently a few of you are. When I think of what we would have of Kafka had ALL of the authors wishes been observed (2 stories,1 novel) it still bothers me a bit. However, when I read "restored" texts (Kafka and Heinlein come to mind) where every strikeout the author banished has been "preserved and re-integrated" with the text I know exactly where Harlan's anxiety comes from. I think Harlan's "final solution" to this problem is extreme, but perhaps the only way of solving the problem. God knows I would not want to pay a premium for a specialty press equivalent of "Beatles anthology 3, but, God help me, I might not be able to stop myself. That having been said, I think Harlan ought to consider these special cases... 1.) "The Last Dangerous Visions" Do we ever get the stories. Are the editors introductions more important then the stories themseves. I am aware that some of these stories (3 that I know of) have already appeared, but I would rather see an "incomplete" TLDV, authorized by the estate, than see some cobbled together autopsey version done by anyone else. Of couse, if all rights revert it's probably a moot point. By saying this, I hope it is understood that this is not some addendum to the Christopher Priest essay as that is a piece of work of almost no value to me. 2.) "From the Land of Fear". This is a work composed, mostly, of fragments of things the author wished at the time to see the light of day. There are some good and interesting pieces in there, and I, for one would hate to see them fall through the cracks. 3.) Anything removed and replaced from previously published work to aid in White Wolf publishing a uniform edition of the authors work. Since older editions are currently available (at a price) this is not a problem, but that won't always be the case. 4.) Fragments already published in other places. Rabbit Hole for example. 5.) Previously uncollected pieces. Harlan may wince at the idea of a specialty house or University press edition of, let's say, "The Jazz reviews of Harlan Ellison" or "the Collected pre-1957 Fanzine/Prozine/APA/etc. writings of Harlan Ellison" but if he's ashamed of that stuff (and I KNOW he isn't) he should have purged his files decades ago. 6.) University Archives. Where are they? What goes? What stays? 7.) What about recordings of public appearances? SciFiBuzz editorals? Interviews? He ought not piss and moan about people NOT recording Hugo Gernsback appearances on TV and then shut the door onpeople who think he may have contributed as much. and last... Consider this, 8.) The Letters. Nobody who had me search for the collected letters of Randall Jarrell can tell me this isn't important. I think, next to the Malzberg wet dream of auditing every publisher of science fiction, there could be no more telling expose of the field of speculative fiction. It's the Burgess Shale of the whole genre. To be told we couldn't have that would be the literary equivalent of criminal negligence. Harlan has had a very public literary life. While he has done for us many times over the decades, we have also made a place for him. If he is truly boxing Turgenyev or "beating dead men at their own games" then there are consequences. Things that need addressing. Harlan is no Ed Earl Repp, or C.C. McApp. He would like for posterity to play fair with him and I think, ultimately, it will. But he must also play fair with us. I know this has gone on too long, but a few people here know this means quite a bit to me and I hope they'll have indulged me. Rick, you may consider this my guest rant and move it if you like. Or forward it to Harlan. He's the only person who really needs to consider it. Thanks, Barney

Ray Bradbury (from PLAYBOY, May, 1996):
- Monday, November 04, 1996 at 16:52:55 (CST)

PB: Many people don't take science fiction seriously, and yet you maintain that it is the esstential literature of our age. Why is it so important? Bradbury: In science fiction, we dream. In order to colonize in space, to rebuild our cities, which are so far out of whack, to tackle any number of problems, we must *imagine* the future, including the new technologies that are required. PB: Yet most people don't consider science fiction to be part of maintstream literature. Bradbury: It isn't part of the maintstream---science fiction *is* the mainstream. It has been since Sputnik. And it will be for the next 10,000 years... Science fiction is also a great way to pretend you are writing about the future when in reality you are attacking the recent past and the present. You can criticize communists, racists, fascists or any other clear and present danger, and they can't imagine you are writing about them...

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Sciffy?, Crunchy or smooth? - Monday, November 04, 1996 at 14:39:58 (CST)

Well, boy howdy.. Another fine mess.. The purpose of Sci-Fi? Is there One? Is it any different than any other form of creative activity, except by loosely defined 'genres' and forms? 'Fraid you'll have to keep on looking for a justification of art. I don't have one - it just satisfies.. And I learned a long time ago not to fix what ain't broke.. Old biker saying - If I gotta explain it, you won't understand. I managed to check out Rick's virtual booth - and nothing else. Guess it was a convention for the computer-competant, and I flunked the test. All I got was error messages, and the Registration Screen. However, I did 'boost' the count substantially with repeat registrations.. Does that count?? Always happy to do my bit... Now if I could just figure out how to break in there, and see if I got any messages.. Life plods on here. We were notified by phone that we had 'won' a brand new Blazer.. If we bring our Drivers Licence and a major credit card to a 'presentation' of the sponsor.. No written notification (I asked for it).. So I figure we'll go - with my buddy the DA. I'm sure they are not expecting us (Nobody expects a German Inquisition), or even anything close.. And I do *love* giving bozos a hard time. Wonder if there's a chance I'll be awared a Blazer to prevent prosecution for fraud?? Not. But it should be fun. Yaknow *RICK*, I miss "Publish and be Damned". The chuckle made up for the yellow eyeball streaks I get burned into my retina from reading the BBoard. If there is a transcript of a HE chat from the Convention anywhere on line, will someone shoot a URL this way?? Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Monday, November 04, 1996 at 13:03:34 (CST)

Jason-interesting question. I have never read scifi so much for the techno speculations as much as for its commentary upon the human condition. Often, the message that comes down to me is "No matter how many neat machines we have, people are people and will find a way to use technology to suit their own purposes whether they be for good or for evil". One of the reasons that HE is such a master writer is that he creates characters who are believable (that versimilitude he's always talking about). HE generally gives us believable motivations for his characters' actions. We can witness good psychology (and pretty decent renditions of pathology) in those characters. I dunno, but I think the "final frontier" is the human mind and heart. My $.02...

Jason
- Sunday, November 03, 1996 at 21:28:57 (CST)

Rick, nice job on the booth. Question what rant is he talking about? New topic. I spent Shatterday at a conference sponsored by one of my professors. It was called science fiction and popular culture. Very interesting, I learned a lot. Hopefully in two or three years there'll be a much larger version. Anyway, one of the speakers, Robert J. Sawyer, a very good s-f author, his book The Terminal Experiment just won the nebula, go read it, was talking about how s-f is disrespected by the literary community, and that it is often asked to justify it's purpose. He answered that question, by paraphrasing William Gibson. S-f's purpose is to be profoundly ambivalent about new technology. The problem with that is S-F has achieved, that purpose. Everyone who is going to be concerned about what impact a new technology will have. No-one builds a nuclear power plant without doing an enviromental impact assessment. If this is true then s-f needs a new purpose if it needs a purpose at all. He gave his answer, I want yours. What purpose does science fiction have in today's society? I'll give his response by Tuesday, what do you think? Jason

desi <desi@iwaynet.net>
u.s.a. - Saturday, November 02, 1996 at 15:32:55 (CST)

hi.. just testing out different guestbooks/message boards. thanks!

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Out of the silent planet, into the region between - Saturday, November 02, 1996 at 09:41:39 (CST)

My, my! Sorry **JASON**, I got a hoot from your story of Halloween terror.. Next time, grab for the butt, jump back shaking your hand violently, and yell "Shit, it's *really* shit!" - give her something to brag to her friends about the next morning.. I would.. But then, I do a lot of things most people wouldn't.. and have a lot more laughs than most, too.. Our Halloween went to the dogs - literally. I didn't feel like dressing up, and didn't. My daughter and her husband came over to 'do' Halloween. She was dressed up like Beetlejuice (she swears she was *really* a prisoner executed in the electric chair), and handed out the candy at the door. Understand that the door to the house is 30 ft. from the sidewalk, in the middle of a 20 yr. growth of yews and other ornamentals gone wild, and is much like walking through a tunnel to get there with branches brushing and smacking in the dark all the way - and only the porch light on.. Her husband was dressed in black with a cape, and we accused him of a lack of imagination.. Until he put our two over friendly dogs on leashes, got some kindling from the woodpile for a torch, put on a top hat - and looked like the leader of black as ignorance mob that chased Frankenstien's monster. If anyone was bold enough to get to the door and claim their candy, he came from the driveway, dogs straining at the leash, to greet them at the sidewalk.. Scattered 'em like dead leaves in a high wind.. And some of them took their kids with 'em.. Aaahhh, yes - nothing like a family tradition to warm the heart.. Yesterday was our 24th wedding anniversary (I'm saving the caps until the 25th). And yes, we know we got married the day after Halloween - did it on purpose (it fell on a Wednesday the year we got married) - 'cause it's All Saints Day. Had the traditional 'surprise' party.. Hubby and I go out for dinner - to the restaurant run by an old friend, who catered our wedding, and both daughters weddings (like dogs back to their own vomit, we return to the scene of the crime).. And since everyone knows we do this every year - they all 'show up'.. Makes for a neat celebration, and last night was no exception. Got to admit, 'the kids' are getting pretty old.. Can't figure that out, since we aren't.. ;-) .. I'm still trying to figure out where HE is supposed to be in the Sci-Fi chat line-up.. I'm guessing he must be part of a 'group' listed, but which one? Probably missed it already.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Rick
- Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 21:04:18 (CST)

Shit, I mean http://www.scifi.com/scifi.con/fanbar/ellison

Rick
- Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 21:00:16 (CST)

Webderland's booth at the Sci-Fi Con is at URL - http://www.scifi.com/scificon/fanbar/ellison/

Jason
- Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 20:54:30 (CST)

Thanks Rick, Barney. I have a feeling it's going to come out as a rant. Not a good day really, I finally downloaded the Palace software only to discover that the mothership link doesn't work on this server. I've been trying to tape The Simpsons Halloween episode They didn't show them all, agian and I taped over two of the ones I did get. All hallow's eve I spend my time hiding in a space, behind the kids and parents and scare them, sometimes I jump out, sometimes I just make myself visible and and make a noise and sometimes I creep out and place my hand on someone's neck. The latter I do when the kids are small and they're brought in by the parent. I did this to one woman, who exclaimed to her friend who had come with her in front of her children. "Sh!t. Sh!t. I just got felt up! F-ck! All I did was touch her neck and head. My family who were handing out treats and watching found this hilarious, and I was the butt of jokes for the next hour. In HE news there is comic book called Strange Kaddish That features some of his work, I'm tryng to find it myself you probably have order it from your comic book store. I have to go. Later. Jason

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Coming to you live, from the heart of pagan America - Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 12:46:19 (CST)

Well, put a lot of thought into it - like a nanosecond, and that was a strain - and don't feel like doing the costume thing this year. Feeling cranky.. so I'm just gonna stand at the door in my bathrobe and biker boots, with a coupla of those cheap MaryJanes in one outstretched palm, calling "Here kiddy, kiddy" - with a .357 in the other hand.. Yeah...that's the ticket... No Disney-cute crap here - we'll go for true, stark terror.. And they won't mess with us the rest of the year, either.. Yeah... the kids, or their parents... that's the ticket... I may enjoy this free-loading Yuppie Holiday after all.. ];-}~ **BARNEY** I'll take your word for it - Damon Knight was another name mentioned. Was he also a critic in the 70's? Budrys was not one of the named attendees. But, it's still good skuttlebutt.. **KEEGAN** puttered about that Dominion Con - no lightlarks listed.. So, I'll tell you here. hi. **ALL** I'm a touch crabby yet. So, I'll go take it out on someone in real life, and return when I can do a better Sue impersonation. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Mara Skywalker <jedi@ziplink.net>
The Jedi Academy, Luke's Playhouse Yavin IV - Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 10:05:57 (CST)

Happy Halloween! Anakin, is tied up at the moment, so I have taken over for a minute to wish everyone a happy holiday! I'll see you at the con!

keegan
- Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 06:25:23 (CST)

Hey, Rick-I found it! One question: You think if I contact HE's agent, he might be interested in a guest spot on one of my recordings later on in this life? :) Will tool 'round the booth more later today. Check 't out, folks. It's fun.

keegan
- Wednesday, October 30, 1996 at 17:25:54 (CST)

Well, I did it. I registered for SCIFI.CON. Rick- I found no mention of the Ellison Webderland booth. Any chance those Dominion bozos screwed up? Do you have any more info to help us weed through the WorldWide Wasteland? Please post. WolfMistress-nice graphic! Mine doesn't work (sniffle). I saw some other Webderheads there, too. BTW, wanna leave ol' keegan a message at the con? Try some chick named lightlark. Hope to see you there!

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown , PA. USA - Wednesday, October 30, 1996 at 16:09:45 (CST)

Hey Sue, Regarding the Haldeman anecdote the most likely candidate for that would have been AJ Budrys with Damon Knight running a close second. I don't believe Harlan was the culprit there. They get along just fine. I've been trying to post my Ellison for sale material but keep getting blown off with server errors. Perhaps it's not compatable with WORD. If anybody wants it I can e-mail the price list to anybody that's interested. In a couple of days it goes to rec.arts.sf.marketplace but I thought I'd give regulars here first shot at the stuff. Regards...

SLIPPAGE
- Wednesday, October 30, 1996 at 15:23:50 (CST)

Unoffical news from Ziesing: The book hits the presses some time next week, ready for shipping about six weeks after that.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Where is that clever bit, ..I know I left it around here somewhere... - Wednesday, October 30, 1996 at 14:17:35 (CST)

Well, aayyup, fur sure.. And that will have to suffice for wit. I'm reading "Infinite Dreams" by Joe Haldeman, kind of the white stuffing between the hard black cookies of HE's Watching, and in the introduction, it is mentioned that Haldeman got his 'break' at an informal seminar of S-F writers (names listed included HE), where all but one writer _loved_ his submission - and the one who didn't tore it up and threw it on the floor with vast, colorful, punishing language. Haldeman dismisses the dissenting vote, since the author in question at that time (mid '70's) was primarily a critic rather than short story writer... Hhhhmmm.. Is it just me, or is there a bit of skuttlebutt hidden in that somewhere? The things you find buried in introductions.. The weather has been 'yucky' for several days now, and played havoc with my mood (damn rain is turning my golden halo green, and it's rubbing off on my pointy ears..). Not a pretty picture. So in the interest of furthering the ridiculous delusion I have that people think I'm a Nice Person, simply because the Net allows me to edit out the majority of gritty bits that don't support that vacuous opinion, I will sign off for now. Try High - Fly Stright - Drive Safe

Rick Wyatt <webmaster@harlanellison.com>
- Wednesday, October 30, 1996 at 14:00:59 (CST)

Thanks, Keegan - was curious if this thing was working the last couple of days! The guy with the lamp was Diogenes. You might find more about him by e-mailing my business partner, diogenes@menagerie.net. AND HEY - CHECK IT OUT! ----- I'm running an Ellison booth at the SciFi Online Con starting tomorrow!

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
- Wednesday, October 30, 1996 at 05:57:37 (CST)

Happy Birthday, Rick! May your coming year be wonderful!

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.Com>
The Emerald City Not Quite Oz, - Monday, October 28, 1996 at 11:59:03 (CST)

Phil: HARLAN ELLISON'S WATCHING is available on in paperback. GUEST RANT: I have no clue. Until next time... Jim

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Monday, October 28, 1996 at 10:28:30 (CST)

Sue... I only gave you "Croatoan" because it was at hand and a good read. No secret agenda. I know better than to attempt to modify anybody's feelings or beliefs. Interestingly, (to me) I read that story in Gallery magazine in a barber shop and was getting funny stares from patrons who were clearly perplexed by a teenage boy reading a story when I was supposed to be serepticiously looking at the nekkid ladies. I know Sue is having a hard time imagining me in a barber shop. PS. The dude your looking for is Diogenes (founder of the school of cynicism). If they ever made the movie Ted Sturgeon circa 1978 would have been perfect. "Ask the next question",indeed. Toodles... Barney Dannelke PSS. Because it's raining here, today's project is posting two boxes of Ellisonalia here and over in rec.arts.sf.marketplace. Ebenezer Scrooge sez chekitouut!

Jason
- Monday, October 28, 1996 at 10:07:58 (CST)

Hi guys, I need help, but you knew that already didn't you. does anyone know the story about the guy in greece who seacrch the streets with a lantern looking for one honest man. If you do could you give me the details, like what his name was and where he did this? I ransacked all my books that might be revalent and I didn't find it, all I really need is the name, because I know I could find it from that. It's important so I'd really appreciate your help. I can't afford HE's Watching at the moment, sorry James.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Alive and well on a friendly voyage, - Monday, October 28, 1996 at 09:39:15 (CST)

Now where did everyone sneak off to?? I'll just leave that split infinitive as bait.. ;-) *PHIL* (it was you wasn't it? - HE's watching seems to be a used bookstore kind of thing. I've seen it in paperback, so there must have been at least one printing. Same size at the hardcover, and, unless I need a new prescription for my glasses, same black cover. *JIM* Guest rant? When? Where? *BARNEY* Read HE's "Croatoan" last night, as a break from 'HE's Watching'... I know, I know.. A good read - and the tale told was an interesting kind of 'repent and convert' variation. Maybe more along the lines of logical consesequences.. And then I got to thinking, and it dawned on me that you had read it first, so you knew what it was about, and that you thought I should read this repent and convert story.. Well, Geez! So now I have to re-read 'Repent Harlequin Said The Tick-TockMan' to get my Attytude cocked at the right angle again.. ;-} *KEEGAN* Egyptian equals overdone make-up. Think black eyes here. And remember to keep your neck stiff - ever seen those wooden things they used as pillows? To keep the hair-do untouched.. Always thought that must have been the origon of the phrase "stiff necked pride".. But they were an inbred lot, so maybe they didn't have the where-with-all to know it hurt.. Good luck on the Halloween Party. *SHAZ* Bummer on the Halloween deprivation.. Now you know why all those immigrants came over - to party.. ;-)~ I spent a couple of years overseas as a kid, and BELIEVE me - I noticed the lamentable lack of Holidays.. Whaaat?!? No Halloween candy? No days off school here and there? No Thanksgiving feast leftovers to raid? What a gyp!.. *WOLFMISTRESS* I understand your 'prickly skin' reaction to the news story of the husband who killed his wife as the first and last step of ending a marraige. There are too many such stories - and it gives me the willies to think we live in a society where human life is not worth a hassle (if it isn't your own). Bothers me more when people hear of it, tut-tut a little in self-righteousness, and forget it within days - leaving it to the authorities to handle (and dispose of), as if a murder were no more significant than a parking infraction. That whole attitude of distancing the unpleasant does not hold out much comfort or hope for us, when we are what is unpleasant (even if the unpleasantness is not of our choosing), and makes for a very cold world of Only The Strong. And we call ourselves civilized.. For Shame.. Got to get back to playing catch-up with all those dumb details of Real Life, like doing laundry so we can wear unerpants again.. Kind of got away from me the last few weeks, and now I pay the price of not being Susie Homemaker (I hated that doll when it came out - why couldn't it have been Druscilla Homemaker, and left me to my happy slovenly ways unnoted..). Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Phillip Cairns <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Sunday, October 27, 1996 at 21:04:51 (CST)

Does anyone know if HE's WATCHING is available in paperback?

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.com>
Ft. Collins, CO USA - Friday, October 25, 1996 at 15:27:24 (CDT)

Hello one and all. Well, I tried to get a peek at youknowwho even after I registered and the piece of crap wouldn't let me in, so I am left to wonder and ponder (and hide from TAZ-type person when she finds out I've been a leering and a peering) what said person looks like. Anyway, for those of you who have been trying to e-mail me with no success it may have something to do with the fact I was out of town for a few days and my box got kinda full. (Got this serious ass-chewing when I got in from the sysop who gently told me one more time to empty the mailbox or face the consequences...oooooo...there's a scary thought. HAH!) Onward. A question to our webdermaster here, Rick: Um...well? Did HE give the thumbs down on my Guest Rant? Has Jimmy Hoffa been spotted in Wendy's on East Colfax? Is Elvis living in sin with Janis Joplin? Or is life just a major pain for you these days and you don't want to reveal the ugly truth to this humble scribe of sorts? Just a thought. If I don't talk to y'all soon, have a great Halloween and save the posioned candies, the razor-blade filled apples, and the exploding goodies for me. Until next time... Jim

Anakin O'Hara-Mara Skywalker <jedi@ziplink.net>
Newington, Connecticut U.S.A. - Wednesday, October 23, 1996 at 22:48:54 (CDT)

Greetings, glad to see you guys, hope to chat with you one day, but my work schedule is wacky. Hey Keegan, hope you have a great Halloween. See you around.

Sue Luesse
- Wednesday, October 23, 1996 at 22:34:46 (CDT)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY KEEGAN!! Drat, where is the confetti? Spaghetti?? Gotta wear my glasses... "INCOMING"... I'm a bit busy with the living and the dead right now. My good buddy, who's been dying of cancer for the past year and a half died this morning. A peaceful, good death at home with family and closest friends around his bed. I'm not depressed, or violently emotional - it's been too long to feel more than closure. But it is draining none-the-less to do the funeral thing. I'll post when I have time. And never fear - the dev'lish twinkle in my eye is still there. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Wednesday, October 23, 1996 at 16:37:16 (CDT)

Oooops. No cake here. My husband gave me the City on the Edge of Forever script. He also wrote me about the closest thing to poetry that he could manage. It was mahvelous! Whatta man! I think I'll keep him. Who needs Shakespeare or even that Ellison guy? (ooh, ooh, looky! keegan actually used ellison's name AND a title in her crazy post. Whassup? You guys go serious on me all of a sudden?) :)

cleo.... i mean, keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
They say it's your birthday....., well, actually it's tomorrow - Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 18:48:45 (CDT)

SHAZ- Bummer about all Hallow's Eve. I'd imagine it's rather strange to go to a place where a holiday just plain doesn't exist. Kind of like showing up on December 25 in a non-Christian earth cult. Poe sounds good. We (the family)are reading the "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" by Washinton Irving--one of my childhood favorites and highly appropriate for two little boys growing up in the state of New York. The book has wonderfully skewed illustrations The story frightened me horribly as a child (ooh, but how I loved that gut shiver!), but as an adult, I appreciate the deep humor of the piece so much more. Reading is fun.....WM (not just like that because I am basically a lazy person), any info or pointers to info about Egyptian dress would be welcome. But remember: I'm going for suggestion and effect, not craftsmanship and authenticity! So far, I have a big, bushy, Cleopatra wig, a collar made of stiff paper and done in faciful "egyptian" designs of crayon and gold paint marker. It has an eagle head at center with wings outstreched up to the shoulders. Two snakes cralw down from underneath the eagles wings. The back of the collar is alternating small vertical strips of gold marker (sun rays) and wide vertical strips of deep blue glitter crayon (sky). (I bet there's some dead Egyptians rolling in their sacophogi over that one. Either that, or they're arming up to meet me with force when I drag my sorry butt into the afterlife!). Anyway, I plan to wrap a gold cobra around my wig and attractively drape something white (tablecloth?) around my body (upstate New York being oh, so much cooler than Ancient sun-drenched Egypt). Sue-if I'd gone trick or treating at your place, I might have peed my pants. Might have humbled me a bit.... WolfMistress(see, once I'm warmed up, I'm not so lazy), I got the email from the Dominion about the online scifi convention, but wasn't sure it would be *happenin'*, if ya know what I mean. Now I know that at least *YOU'RE* happenin' so I'm a little more interested. Still, if I heard a cool report about what's up there from someone who already saw it (like, say, you) I might be inclined to deal with it sooner rather than later. Whatever. I'll try to get there, but no guarantees. *ANAKIN* good to see you!! Will try chat sometime, but couldn't say exactly when. Information noted, recorded, and tucked away. I can only compute for brief spurts these days. I shot my wad on this post. Sorry. :)

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
10 miles north of Hell, - Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 17:03:19 (CDT)

*BILL* seems ya gotta register, and if you are already a registered user of the Dominion BBoard, ya have to register under an alias, despite their assurance the Sci-Con will accept your BBoard handle. One of those fill in the blanks, wait for the e-mail with the confirmation number, go back and confirm, and then you can play. **WolfMistress** checked out your profile.. Izzat really you??? A fuzzy filter, red lighting, and a joar of Oil of Olay would do wonders... Nice Giger gif. though.. And when is HE on the chat schedule? I couldn't find him.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Shaz <Missing Halloween once again>
An American in Holland - Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 16:44:13 (CDT)

Keegan: At least you have people that understand celebrating Halloween to enjoy it with. This is the second Halloween I won't celebrate. The Dutch do not observe the pagan holiday, so I'd look pretty silly walking around on that day with a huge green latex dragon mask covering my head and shoulders. And I have never seen whole pumpkins in the supermarkets here, so there goes the jackolantern. There are some international student clubs at my university that have Halloween parties of some sort, but I have never looked into these clubs so I won't be going to any "real American Halloween parties" this year. I guess I will have to settle for playing some eerie organ music and reading Poe while my Dutch husband looks at me like I've lost my mind. Oh well... *SIGH*

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Steak City, - Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 12:54:45 (CDT)

WolfMistress (typed just like that): I tried to get to the page you referenced, but was prompted for a userid and password. Any further instructions? -- Billy D.

WolfMistress
- Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 10:36:40 (CDT)

I think you have to type it WolfMistress - exactly like that.

WolfMistress <Holding a Magnifying Glass Over Ants in the Sunlight....>
- Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 10:35:00 (CDT)

**NOTE** -- Want to see what your friendly neightborhood Wolfmistress looks like??? Huh?? Doncha, doncha??? Please go to the following URL in the Members Section for the SciFi Online Convention. Seriously. Yours truly in the flesh(?). Comments, anyone??? **http://www.scifi.com/scifi.con/members/profiles/W/Wolfmistress**

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Peering at the Succubus under the Lens..., - Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 09:40:52 (CDT)

Hello, All! **Keegan** - I'll email you some info on Egyptian dress, etc. I have been an amateur Egyptologist for 20 years, and own a rather startling collection of paintings, drawings, artworks and assorted things of a like nature, some authentic, some faithful reproductions. Maybe I can help. **Jason** - thank you much. I had you address somewhere, but what with the job-change and everything else that's gone on with me from this summer to now, I'm missing a few brain cells, probably. **Red Alert** - In case anyone's missed it, our dear HE is gonna be participating in the Sci-Fi Channel's first ONLINE SF convention. The direct route is **http://www.scifi.com/scifi.con/intro.html**, or you can access registration,etc. through The Dominion. Registration is free, and first glance looks like this is gonna be something to see, if it comes off the way they say. Everybody check it out and let me know what you think. More later.

Anakin O'Hara-AKA Mara Skywalker <jedi@ziplink.net>
Hartford, Connecticut U.S.A. - Tuesday, October 22, 1996 at 01:02:47 (CDT)

I'm not kidding this time guys, Chatterbox, now has a Harlan Ellison Chat room, it holds 10 people, and each week I'll leave a quote from a Harlan Ellison story. http://paul.spu.edu/~kevnord/starwars/chat Go to where it says Prodj.com, then go to Sci Fi Rooms and there you'll find Harlan's Chatterland, it's in the menu. Hope you like it. Anakin.

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Monday, October 21, 1996 at 22:43:26 (CDT)

Yeah, Bill, don't bother with it. Not one of HE's greatest. "Catman" was adapted for one of the Dream Corridor comics. You can also find it in HE's book APPROACHING OBLIVION, which I think is available thru the HERC.

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Slake City, - Monday, October 21, 1996 at 22:34:34 (CDT)

Has anyone read a story by HE called "Catman"? I saw it in a collection of pieces by various writers at Barnes and Ignobles the other day--the entire volume is called "Cypersex" and I was wondering if anyone has any comments on "Catman" that might aid in my decision to buy the book. The collection itself doesn't really turn me on (so to speak), but if "Catman" comes highly recommended by y'all, I might purchase the paperback just on the strength of the HE story alone. Thanks. -- Billy D.

Smokey the Bear
- Monday, October 21, 1996 at 22:29:29 (CDT)

With all those fires raging in California, I keep expecting to see HE's house burnt to a crisp on the 11 o'clock news. How far out of the line of fire is he? Anyone know?

Jason <yu104681@yorku.ca>
- Monday, October 21, 1996 at 19:12:46 (CDT)

There wo go WM I had put it the text main body of one of my posts and forgot to put at thetop sorry about that. As for other things. Dream corridor#2 is out also in November and City.. is out already. I've been spending the past couple of finishing up a story due for class on Wednesday. Now my handwriting is hard enough to decipher, when you add the fact that most of it was written on a bus to the mix, then you have to start looking for a Rosetta Stone if you want read it. It's done now, and it's at the point where I don't mind showing it to others, but I would like to go through it again to make sure. I gotta go end a war or something. Later, Jason

keegan
- Monday, October 21, 1996 at 17:55:29 (CDT)

WM- I scrolled back. I don't know about Dream Corridors. I don't know about books except that Edgeworks part deux is coming out in November and that Slippage is basically out there if you wanna order from HERC. Other than that, I just plain don't have much to say. Just look at my last post. Hell, I was out in an unnamed country dancing my damndest to free the leaders of the resistance. 'Zat sound like anybody who knows anything for real?? Didn't think so. :) I'm busy writing up report cards, and gearing up for Halloween. Having a party this year. I'm into it for some reason. I've been searching the Net looking for pix of Cleopatra and other sundry Egyptians. Don't know whether to dress my husband as Marc Antony or as my own personal Eunuch. A fan is much easier to construct than a breastplate so it looks bad for male ego..... Sorry that I can't stay on topic, but the most raging question in my life these days is "What're you gonna be for Halloween and how the hell are you going to pull it off?" Sorry. Anyone else care to share?

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Lost in the Dreamtime...., - Monday, October 21, 1996 at 15:51:21 (CDT)

I know how this sounds and I personally don't care -- is there some reason why **nobody** has responded to anything I've said other than to return greetings and disappear. **Jason** I need your email address, darling. Drop me one then I can just move it to my Personal Address Book. The rest of you (other than Sue and Jim), well, I guess I'll just take my screen and go home....Humph!!!

Sue Luesse
slippage?, and they told me it wouldn't sag for at least 50 yrs. - Monday, October 21, 1996 at 15:03:58 (CDT)

Well, how do.. I have finally completed the task of sorting out 10 days worth of e-mail, and snail-mail, and I am a WINNER..if I have and return the winning number... I've never felt so popular. I just wonder how much my 'prize' will cost me.. I did indeed take to my blankie with HE's Watching, and read myself into a fierce crick in the neck when I awoke from my uprighteous nap.. I know, I know - heresy, and all that. I was amazed that I remembered so little of the book from the magazine articles - until I realized I had read half an inch into the tome, and was still on the introduction.. Sssigghhhh.. I have now reached the actual first installment, and it all comes back to me.. If we are to discuss HE's Watching, I'll have to insist that everyone pretend they have seen all those 'old' movies - since I did.. In the theaters.. When they were first released.. And it was a pleasant surprise that I remembered The Train (the film) so well - although it didn't hurt that Ellison is so thorough in his examples and explainations, he practically does a Cliff Notes version of the film in print.. It brought back warm and fuzzy memories of movies and arts being forces of social change. I think I am going to enjoy the re-read, even if no one cares to discuss. If anyone has a fave, name it - I've figured out how that index thing works, so I can skip around to read and join in. You may have guessed I got through The Train review, and went immediately into make myself grimace like Burt Lancaster mode (the crick in the neck..oh, nevermind). Ahhh, what interesting effect will each installment have??? One wonderful result of our Biker Invasion of the East, was coming home with an entire shelf of 'new' reads.. Yes, I put a new shelf to hold them this morning - with a small paper mache plaque reading 'The Barney Dannelke Memorial Shelf'.. To commemorate the death of my last healthy vertebrae lifting the shelf and books into place. A proud accomplishment.. Though whose it was may be debatable. So, I am prepared to sink into Ellisonian squalor - or is that Harlanesque slumming? - and revel in the smug satisfaction of someone else getting a 'professional job' done on them. Sometimes the sidelines are the best seats in the house.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress <renee.anderson@med.ge.com>
Somewhere beyond anything even resembling a rainbow..., - Monday, October 21, 1996 at 10:33:56 (CDT)

Good Morning Webderlanders! The above is the !00%, tried and true email address for yours truly until one of the following happens: (1) the Corporate Wonks grow infinitely tired of me trying to establish a **logical** method of providing hardware/software support to the unwashed masses; (2) I lose it completely and "go postal" on them; or (3) Finally once and for all give up on this sophisticated barbarism known as 'modern civlization' and take to the hills, a la the Unabomber, but without ever having contact with anything even remotely resembling a human being ever again. Please forgive the cycnicsm so early in the day, but a news item from over the weekend has greatly disturbed me. A man in one of the smaller towns/villages in this area of Wisconsin killed his wife. Splattered the woman's brains all over the kitchen. Why? Because he didn't want to go through the hassle of a divorce!!! Honestly!! Even the Talking Heads were having trouble with that one on the news! I don't suppose it helped much that I was re-reading various stories in Angry Candy again, including my favorite - The Region Between - and the one where Pen the Bookseller finds out his father is Death, after he had dished out similar attention to other chosen ones. I can never remember the name, but I know the story by heart. I don't know. Somehing about the murder just unsettles me, gets under my skin like an itch that you can't really scratch. Well anyway, let me do some work to justify my outrageous salary. God forbid, they don't get their money's worth! More later.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
There's no place like home, (three clicks) I'll be darned, it works! - Sunday, October 20, 1996 at 22:57:04 (CDT)

Just a quickie to report the Loop Lake Erie road trip has been succesfully ended without ending us in the process. We take no responsibility for the swathe of mayhem we left behind us. *KEEGAN* - Barney must still be amused, or we must belong to the Red Chief Tribe.. I won't say which.. But it worked. I am curling up with Harlan Ellison's Watching, under a blanket, sitting on the heating vent, and growling at the dogs to keep the spot - so I'll have something Harlanesque to say tomorrow when my feet dry out (I have dish-pan feet from a long, soggy ride home on the bikes - the plastic bags almost worked). Good to be home. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

WolfMistress <See Below. (I'm tired of writing the damned thing...!)>
- Friday, October 18, 1996 at 16:45:35 (CDT)

**Jim & Sue** I've tried off and on all afternoon to send you two messages. **Jim** I got a message back from Compuserve saying they were unable to deliver due to some sort of line error in the router. **Sue** - Your came back saying " 'htonline.com' wasn't accepting any for that address", so some such rot. Whatever, I know MY address works because I've tested it with some others. Comes through every time. So drop ME a line if you have time. I know what it's like not to have any, beleive me. Take care.

The WolfMistress <renee.anderson@uswau01msg.med.ge.com>
- Friday, October 18, 1996 at 13:57:00 (CDT)

Lowercase letters will do nicely. Simpler and less aggravating.

The WolfMistress <Renee.Anderson@uswau01msg.med.ge.com>
Putting tire-shredders on the Info Superhiway..., - Friday, October 18, 1996 at 13:45:20 (CDT)

**RED ALERT** -- For all those interested, the above is the e-mail address of the moment. Don't ask, all right? Something more civilised should find its way into the system(!) by Monday afternoon, at which time it will be posted here. Will personally e-mail others as stated. If I don't make it back here, have a decent weekend, kiddies -- I'm not gonna push my luck by asking for any more than that.

Mark Simmonds <xmark@mpb.com>
Los Angeles, CA USA - Thursday, October 17, 1996 at 23:51:29 (CDT)

Very glad to have this page available! Thanks for taking the effort to inform all of us on Ellison's latest works. Ellison has always been inspirational and influential to me since the first short story of his I read. However, I expressely forbid anyone, for any reason, to blame him for the amatuer writing of my novella at http://mpb.com/xmark/olivia.htm Still, on a rainy day, it might be worth your while to check out :) Mark

keegan
- Thursday, October 17, 1996 at 16:59:13 (CDT)

PARDON ME! No wonder de colonel, he smile. De dance go "wiggle, wiggle WIGGLE turn" at end. Important, or sombody gets stepped on. Two just ain't enough (feels too good to leave it at that, I guess).

keegan
Kindly imagine the beat, please, - Thursday, October 17, 1996 at 16:50:19 (CDT)

(Ta di-mi, Ta di-mi, Ta di-mi TaKa...if you wanna blow your mind, the code for the sixteenth note division of the beat is "takadimi".) out, out; up, up; shoulder, shoulder; head, head; cross, cross; hip, hip; wiggle, wiggle, TURN/clap simultaneously with turn. There. Are you mildly amused yet Barney? I am (easily entertained, I guess). Thanks for the info. Time to stroll out for a magazine and a ceegar. Tell the "hostages" we send greetings and miss them. Tell them I danced the dance but de colonel with de one eye an' de stinky cologne jus' smiled and shine he gun. Now I just drink and count rosary. Oh yeah, and everyone else: good to see you too. Pardon my zeitgeist... sometimes ya just gotta cut loose.

WolfMistress <From "The Whole World Is Watching" Generation>
(HE is better!), - Thursday, October 17, 1996 at 16:33:07 (CDT)

**Jim** - Will do, probably tomorrow when I am supposed to get my Internet access ID as opposed to 3 other access IDs I've gotten for various systems around here. They never heard of consistency, here, I know that. The mainframe has one ID, the MS Exchange has another the Sales/Services Support Network has another....get the idea? But hey, they're paying me a lot to deal with it, so deal with it I am. Same goes for you, Kris(ten) -- will e-mail you personally. Have some interesting tidbits on the "Nasty People" subject I know you'll love from dealing with ga-zillion different so-called 'recruiters' from consulting firms all over the country! They called me after I posted my resume in a half-dozen places on the 'Net and they're **still** calling! But these so-called professionals cannot read, nor can they understand simple English even after I sent them a clean fax of my resume. I was in fine form, Kris! And that was just the intro part! **Jason** same with you -- as soon as I get the **proper** ID, I will be winging ABAHD comments to you via e-mail. Oh, Kris(ten) -- I have Doc's snail mail address and phone, since he and I have also been chatting up the lines since I initially disappeared. I have not, however, talked to him lately since I am in the midst of Monster Commute and Monster Moving plans. Will forward same for him to you ASAP tomorrow. **Yo, Sue** - Glad your wandering is turning out to be so much fun. You & Hubby deserve a little down time after summer of weddings, Klansmen, etc. Much more later via e-mail. To all others, thank you for the Welcome, and I will he joining the fray as time permits. **NOTE** Any new Dream Corridors out? Any new books yet? Gotta have 'em, you know. Toodle-ooo!

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.com>
Well, it ain't Kansas, Toto, Alice Is A Drag Queen and The Wizard O.D.ed - Thursday, October 17, 1996 at 16:08:53 (CDT)

Well, now. Let's see...where to begin with the stuff. I would post my new (and, hopefully, improved) snail mail address here but I suspect there is probably some kind of law against this. All I can suggest Wolfmistress (and anyone else who might have an ear turned this direction) is send me an e-mail note and I will e-mail all the good pertitent stuff to you like, soon. In the meantime I gots stuff to do, places to go, and people to see (as Da Man say). Hey, let's get that there discussion agoin' on HARLAN ELLISON'S WATCHING, 'kay? Until next time... Jim

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. USA - Thursday, October 17, 1996 at 10:15:42 (CDT)

Hey Folks, Just thought "you people" would like to know there is an interview with Harlan in an alternative music magazine called SECONDS. It's issue #39 with the band Type O Negative on the cover. I only say this because I know everybody here knows just who they are and what they look like. It's one of his better interviews and features a three page overview of his career to bring the metalheads up to speed. Also features kewl stuff regarding Meat Beat Manifesto, NAS, Ozzy Osbourne, Lisa Lisa, Eyehategod, and Geezer Butler. Cover price is $3. Joe Bob sez checkitout. PS. I have the Luesse's. Everybody put your hands on your buttcheeks and do the Macarena! If I am sufficiently amused I may give them back. Hah! (HERC #1)

Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
- Wednesday, October 16, 1996 at 08:27:16 (CDT)

Hey guys, is it just me or is Jason setting himself up for a world-class nose dive on this project? Lighten up, Jas -- just present your spiel and let them sort it out. There's no "right" opinion about literature, even Harlan's, so there's no "battle" to win, here -- the objective is to get them "thinking."

Jason
- Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 22:33:57 (CDT)

Steve you have a point, Doc however suggested that I follow it up with HE's standard comment, if there's anyone I haven't offended please raise your hand and I'll try to squeeze you in at the end. what I'm concerned with is that these are for the most part 1st year students, and participation in the seminars so far is small. I want to start off, by asking how many people had a real problem with the story, and then telling those people, they don't like it because they don't understand. If that doesn't get their attention nothing will. It happened in my creative writing class last year. A student really had a problem with one of my stories, when another student defended me, they were told by my critic they (including myself) don't understand the message my story was putting out. It took the rest of the class and part of the next to end that debate. Now after I catch their attention with that I'll say the line about offending them and invite them to attack the story. I'll dismantle their arguments with dazzling ease, all the while taking a very good look at what the story is really about. The natural consequence of this is I'll get an excellent mark, and maybe some of those students will come away a bit smarter. The prof knows it's good to shake these kids up a bit otherwise why include this story. It's there to agitate them. He said so himself. By the way I just the funniest Star Trek DS9 episode perhaps the funniest in all of the series including Trouble with Tribbles. It's called Looking for Par'mak in all the wrong places. Or as I like to call it, Everything you wanted to know about Klingon mating rituals but were afraid to ask. Check it out. Jason.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
But I am on the road, so I'm not there. - Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 21:12:56 (CDT)

I'm tagging in from deep in the heart of blue collar, and big hills country. Still doing the Loop around Erie. Still having excellent weather. Still having fun. **Kristen** If you can stand to wait until I get back, I'll e-mail you Doc's specs for real-life communications. Don't have them with me, but I should be able to get them by the 21st at the latest. **WolfMistress** ditto, about the e-mailing. And you are right.. Online Comics moved (like Jim), but a search will turn it up. Howdy to all of you, and I'll _really_ log in when I get home. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe (the biker you miss may be ME)

Steve
- Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 19:35:25 (CDT)

*Ellis* Well, yes and no. I am worried about what people will think of me when I speak, but only so far as I don't care to come across as belligerent, and I'd like people to listen, with their minds rather than with their prejudices. Jason of course knows himself and his audience best, so what you said has a great likelihood of being true -- humor and shock value certainly have their places. :) I'd just made my suggestion because I find that speakers who immediately challenge their audience often end up stirring up the audience's prejudices and annoyance, often to the speaker's detriment; but my suggestion, of course, is something for Jason to take or leave as he sees fit. *WM* Welcome back! Nice to hear I'm not the only one with a long daily commute. :)

WolfMistress <Juggling the Mouse....>
- Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 17:03:15 (CDT)

OK -- maybe I'm just stupid or something. Exhausted is more like it. Up till the wee smalls during and after that **Righteous** win by the Glorious Green Bay Packers, and the long drive again this morning....! ***Jim*** - tried the usual URL for your Buzz-stuff -- http://www.smartlink.net/~olcapss/buzz11.html -- got zip, zilch, butkus. I just put in the number of the last one I read, hoping to be able to move right along. Did the URL change??? Am I in La-La Land? (Don't answer that!) Geez, and it's a BIG 2-bedroom apartment, too...!

James C. Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com>
Uhhhhh...what?, - Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 14:51:14 (CDT)

Quickie note, things to do. NO. It is no longer Boulder. Drop me an e-mail at the above address for all the latest and newest information on the snail mail trail. Oh, yes. Number 15 is now available, for those who care. Jim

WolfMistress <Juggling at the Mouse Circus....>
- Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 14:24:04 (CDT)

***Keegan*** -- Meaning you didn't miss moi????? (Smile, already!). This job keeps me a lot busier than my other one did (!), so I'll probably have to do a lot of my commenting late at night at home. Bummer. One of the benefits of working in this field is having **free** Net access. If I'm paying forit, I have to make every word count! **Jim** Nevermind. Found address in a notebook from the old job. If it's still the Boulder p.o. box, then I'm OK. If it has changed, please say so here. Gotta run right now. More comments coming as time permits. **Hi, Kris(ten)! Glad to see you among the living. I can seriously relate to having no time. Between the 120-mile drive to and from work, I have no life all of a sudden. Then, I have to find the time to find a place to move to near the worksite. Is anyone aware of the logistics involved in moving the contents of a 2-bedroom (2nd bedroom is my office) apartment approx. 50+ miles east of its current location??? Aaaagggghhh! More later.

keegan
- Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 13:35:16 (CDT)

I miss Sue!

Ellis Hart
- Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 11:28:25 (CDT)

Steve -- you worry too much about what others are going to think. I think it's a cool opener. People will chuckle. Only too late will they realize, he's not kidding! **JASON** MY reaction to the end of A BOY AND HIS DOG? Well, it took me a while to digest,...

Steve
- Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 10:46:53 (CDT)

sanctiMonious. Ugh.

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Tuesday, October 15, 1996 at 10:46:01 (CDT)

*Jason* I wouldn't recommend that opening line; at least not phrased as it is. The words you chose come across as sanctionious and condescending, and if you want a fight where you start by looking very bad, that's the perfect thing to do. Perhaps better would be something along the lines of "What I'm about to talk about may offend many or all of you, but please keep in mind that it sometimes takes being offended to really be jolted into thinking about a subject, and at the same time I hope to show you that you should be offended by something else entirely." Or something like that, altering the words to suit you and the thrust of your presentation. My own experience is that the easiest way to get someone to close their ears to you is to preach, or be condescending and/or insulting to them. That old adage "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" holds very strongly in public speaking. Of course, you can take or leave all my suggestions here, as you see fit. :) Best of luck with the presentation.

Jason
- Monday, October 14, 1996 at 22:00:43 (CDT)

Thanks for the help, Wolfmistress welcome back, Kris(ten) you too, (believe or not) ;-) Without you around I've had to argue with myself, I think it gave me a split personality (did not, did too did not...) Stop you're being silly. WM love an e-mail. Susan thanks for the advice, I don't think I'll mention the possibility of ABAHD being influenced by his relationships with women, because they'll just use that as proof that he hates women. A couple of specific questions to try and gather some opinions on where those people might have problems with the story. Vic has sex with Quilla for the first time. She resists, says no, cries and then changes her position, to the point of initiating sex. Their possible reaction, HE says No means Yes. My reaction, Quilla, wanted to have sex to rebel against her father when she had cumup, she could have hit him when they were about to fall asleep. I believe her reaction against him was probably because she was surprised. Your reactions? Her reaction to the death of her Daddy was to vomit. A page later she's shooting into the crowd and enjoying it. Their possible reaction, inconsistensy. Mine, I don't think she expected to have her father's brains on her legs. I do think she was excited by her father's death. I think Quilla's a sadist. I don't think Vic is Raping women as an exercise in power, I think he does it because he's horny. Power may play a minor role. And finally your reaction about the ending, when you realized what was your reaction? No doubt about it's supposed to cause a reaction. What was it? Shock? Anger? Digust? Amusement? Satifacton? Just so you know this presentation is in February, I just wanted to get a head start. I refuse to embarass myself and HE by doing a bad job on this seminar. The Prof has also said I can do my essay on HE. Yay! This isn't really a discussion story so if you want to do this privately (if you hate the story, but don't want to get flamed for example) My e-mail address is yu104681@yorku.ca t's also easier for me to print. Jason p.s. I figure on making this statement at or near the begining "By the time I've finished this presentation, I will probably have offended some, many or all of you. I hope you understand that I'm doing it for your own good." Whadda ya think?

Kris(ten) L. Homyk <if72@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Tombstone, TX USA - Monday, October 14, 1996 at 17:10:33 (CDT)

HEY EVERYBODY: I feel really bad about not being around so much anymore. All I have the time or energy to do anymore (job, school, etc) is lurk a little, but I just heard about Doc and I feel very bad, ESPECIALLY since Denison is really not too far from here at all. SO, because he feels so badly and because I know there've been times in my life when I sounded a lot like him and maybe felt a lot like him and could've stood to be aggrivated or "friended" or fed (hey, take me out to dinner, I'm yours) by someone who cared, please please please e-mail me his e-mail address and if possible, a phone number or something. I'm the closest one of us here, I think, and I feel terrible that I have been around so not-at-all that I didn't even know I could be useful. So please let me know where I can reach our ellusive Doc -- thanks...

The WolfMistress <Doubling up already....>
- Monday, October 14, 1996 at 16:46:08 (CDT)

Quickie to **Jason** -- I definitely have ideas about A Boy and His Dog as you know from some time back. Will gladly reiterate here or by e-mail privately for you. And NO, it is not an anti-feminist story! It's about love, loyalty and survival, in my opinion. Will elaborate if you want, dear. See ya!

The WolfMistress
Waukesha, WI The Other One Heard From..... - Monday, October 14, 1996 at 16:41:51 (CDT)

YO! I'm baaaack! God, I missed you guys! The last 2 1/2 months of my life have been like an out-of-control turbo-lift! Up, down, sideways, a moebius strip or 3.... Will do my best to catch-up by reading the Archives, as time permits!!!! New job, new life, lots of good stuff. Now drive 60 miles one way to work, 120 a day! Why Waukesha (a satellite of Milwaukee in a way - about 20 miles to the west of it)? That's where the money is! GE Medical Systems - design and build MRI, PET, CAT Scan, etc. type machines. I am part of the Laptop Support Dept. Four of us have to provide phone and online help to over 3000 field representatives and sales people. And I love my work. **Jim Hess** - Sue passed on your inquiry. I'm here, just trying to arrange moving and working and driving 120 miles a day. It occurs to me I never sent for Anhedonia. Misplaced the address. Please supply. Thanks. Will supply e-mail address as soon as I get it (a day or so). Do take care all. ***Rick*** - Love Ya for keepin' it going'

Suzan <suzanr@inetnow.net>
Atlanta, Georgia - Monday, October 14, 1996 at 15:01:38 (CDT)

Jason, Oooh wow! Are you walking into a potential hornet's nest! Not that I don't believe that the story is a wonderful one. Try (as best as you can) to remind the other students that it isn't so much a story about a man raping a woman as it is about a person who was seriously used by another person (Vic being used by Quilla). It is also about how far a person will go to save a genuine friend. If you make this the main idea of the presentation, you may get out with only a few scratches. If you need to resort to it, take the essay Valerie: A True Memoir (the Essential Ellison p.253) as ammunition. Use the essay as a real-life example of how badly people can treat each other. If nothing else, use it to show how the author's point of view may have been slightly affected by the way he has been treated by women in the past. Let us know how it goes!

Jason
- Sunday, October 13, 1996 at 16:59:37 (CDT)

Okay boys and girls I need your help. I'm taking a course called Science, Faith, and Science Fiction. (Wonderful course, this week we're looking at Notes from Underground by Dostoyevsky.) I am going to be be doing a seminar on A Boy and His Dog. No probelm right? A Nebula award winning story, one of his best stories right? Problem is at least half the young women in this class are 1st year women studies students who are going to attack this story and write it off as a phallocentric, mysonginistic, women hating piece of crap. (The professor has warned me that this is an annual occurence) Observing some of the reactions these people had to Frankenstien, and the treatment of the women therin, I've got a fight on my hands. It's okay I don't mind, in some perverse way I'm looking forward to it. What I would like though, is some more ammunition, from those of you who like the story, and don't think it's anti-female to tell me why, espescially if you're female, it'll help a lot. If you don't like the story tell me why too. Also if anyone knows if HE has said anything in response to critics of the story I would really love if you could tell me where I might be able to find it. Thanks a lot Jason. p.s. Keegan, Sue I know you already answered this question a while ago, and I've got your previous comments, but anything that you have to add would be great. Jason

Phillip Cairns <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Saturday, October 12, 1996 at 21:22:01 (CDT)

Just finished watching WHALE MUSIC, one of the most fantastic, moving, beautiful films I have ever experienced. Wow, I wish I could have seen it on the big screen. Right up there with SMOKE, SEARCHING FOR BOBBY FISCHER and LEAVING LOS VEGAS; a quiet, gentle, touching human story. A special film that hugs you into the world it creates; one of the best films I have seen in years. Go out and rent it today, and if you don't like it, drop me a line and I'll refund your money. Anyhow, this talk about HE'S WATCHING got me thinking about movies---and HE's other published columns. Having read all of HE's columns (HE'S WATCHING, THE GLASS TEATs, EDGE IN MY VOICE, and HE'S HORNBOOK), by far, I think the best *writing* is in THE HARLAN ELLISON HORNBOOK. In his other columns, he's writing more as a critic. In the HORNBOOK, I don't think he's as restricted as he is in his other columns (where he more or less had to stick to movies, tv, whatever); therefore, the writing is more personal, and, to me, more relevant and immediate, not nearly (not at all) as dated as some of his other columns are. When I read the other columns, I can *tell* that I'm reading a column, where as the HORNBOOK stuff seems more like I'm sitting next to Harlan on the couch, it's the end of the day, we're drinking Cokes and eating Pizza, and he's telling me all this personal stuff. Valuable stuff that I've read over and over again. That's literature for you... I'll try reading HE'S WATCHING again and see if it holds up. Later.

James C. Hess <104656.765@Compuserve.com>
At the moment, owing to the wailing sirens and the smog..L.A.?, Well, Buckwheat, it sure as Hell ain't Disneyland. I just told you, Buckwheat. - Saturday, October 12, 1996 at 17:43:45 (CDT)

RE: HARLAN ELLISON'S WATCHING, THE GLASS TEAT and THE OTHER GLASS TEAT. Well, as I was telling the Rickmester in this here-and-now email note good writing is timeless. That means it can be printed and read anywhere, any time. Yes, I do have a copy of all these books. I happen to know where you can lay hands on a battered paperback edition of THE GLASS TEAT, if'n youse care. If youse do, drop me an email note of sorts to that effect. But know it may be a day or two until I get back to you on account of the fact I am, at this moment, facedown in Gloria Swanson's swimming pool, blowing bubbles with my arse. Have I mentioned how much I like HE's writings within these three aforementioned texts? Well, I do. He ain't no Pauline Kael nor John Simon, and thank da Lord for that! Until next time... Jim

Sue Luesse <huh?>
Ithaca (for now), - Friday, October 11, 1996 at 23:07:35 (CDT)

Well, whadda ya know! We made it - in one piece... O.K., in two pieces... his and hers.. Thawing out, and chilling at the same time... I'm gonna signoff and do the 'real life' thing. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Friday, October 11, 1996 at 19:15:17 (CDT)

Okay, okay. I get it now. The green form letter and accompanying flyer for "Slippage" explained all. I laughed mightily. Gotta go. Sue Luesse's expected to blow in at any minute (actually, an hour ago). Gotta get off the line!

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Nowheresville, Long time no see - Thursday, October 10, 1996 at 09:41:49 (CDT)

*DOC* Take care, Kevin, we'll miss you. *Shaz* Sue's comments are pretty much my own, but I thought I'd try to clarify the story. As best I understand it, what happened is that some six-year-old boy in North Carolina was suspended from school for kissing a little girl. The school officials say it's not Sexual Harrassment tht he got suspended for, but that it's been standing policy for years to suspend kids for such behavior, regardless of the gender of the kisser or kissee. But the story got out that this kid *did* get suspended for Sexual Harrassment, and whether it was the school saying that, or the media, I don't know. If someone knows better than I do (which won't surprise me), please correct me! :)

Rick Wyatt <webmaster@harlanellison.com>
- Wednesday, October 09, 1996 at 20:59:58 (CDT)

Okay, gang - Harlan needs your help again. He's looking for two copies of the BlueJay 1984 edition of _The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World_, with the Barclay Shaw cover of an arrow-shot cherub. Contact me or HE, as usual he needs it right away and as usual he'll be happy to discuss whatever you'd like in return. I also have news - I'm moving back to Little Rock, Arkansas the 1st of November, and am going to try to work for six months there then go on a year-long trip around the world. If anyone knows anyone in Europe, Africa, Asia, any of those nutty continents, let me know; I may need a place to crash or someone to take out to lunch...

Jesus Christ <Re: SLIPPAGE>
- Wednesday, October 09, 1996 at 12:53:43 (CDT)

I love Ellison's writing. I'd have a Second Coming, or even slouch toward Bethlehem, just to read this new collection! Which you can order now from Mark V. Ziesing at (916) 474-1580 for $75.00 + $5 s/h, Visa and MasterCard accepted---HERC members get a super-duper discount for a limited time only. SLIPPAGE---hardcover, signed and slipcased first edition limited to 1200 numbered copies. Order yours today before it's too late! (Allow 8 weeks for delivery.)

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Wednesday, October 09, 1996 at 10:05:25 (CDT)

Well, they sure took the fun out of Bubie, Sweetie, Moo-Moo, Kiss-Kiss, didn't they? Geez, talk about a mixed up society.. Somehow, I've got a suspicion that the dollar amount of the Harassment Suit is the key to this particular bit of mental sleight-of-hand.. And I have a sinking feeling that the current climate of governing personal moral behaviour with laws, and getting rich through lawsuits will only generate more of the same silliness. Fortunately, we don't have enough money to be sued by anyone, and most folks take the moral highground of disdainfully having nothing to do with us, so we aren't in much danger.. Aaaah, the freedom... I do wonder how twisted an adult has to be to think a 6 year old kiss is sex.. Sure seems a whole lot of people have some strange ideas about what kids are, and what they should be. *JASON* I tried; I really tried.. But after the first half hour of the Star Trek special I got so bored, I began mindlessly wandering through the house, dusting off old things and talking to myself about 'when we were young and bold'.. And nothing old was looking new again, so I turned off the TV. I'm interested in hearing the rest of your reactions to the new offerings on the tube - before I watch any more.. I think I lost the stomach for it.. I have been reading Harlan Ellison's Watching instead. Odd, how a book so many years away from being 'fresh' can still have so much to say that is true today. Sure, the movies mentioned are approaching 'classic' age (so am I, and I remember them all), but they are only examples to illustrate the main points of the essays - which are surprisingly relevant. Can the Glass Teat(s) be far behind in my reading purge of commercial entertainment?? I won't have the time for much reading until after we get back from our trip, so save the exciting discussions for a week, so I won't miss anything... (;-)~ ... Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Shaz
An American in Holland, - Tuesday, October 08, 1996 at 11:44:21 (CDT)

Yes, about this 6 year old boy????! My mother called me today from the states and passingly mentioned something about a 6-year old boy being implicated in a sexual harrassment suit after he kissed a little girl? Can anyone fill me in on this?

keegan
- Monday, October 07, 1996 at 08:13:10 (CDT)

Hi, Jason. Good to see you again. About six-year-olds kissing: It is common for young children to kiss each other as a sign of affection. It usually begins about half-way through the kindergarten year. One of the K teachers with whom I work noted in her weekly newsletter to parents that the kissing in her class is starting earlier this year. Nobody was charged with sexual harrasment (kids honestly have no clue what that means). The teacher mentioned in her letter that the class discussed how kissing spreads colds and other germs. They made the distinction that it is okay to kiss family members and close friends of the family (if you and your family are comfortable with that) but that kissing in school is simply not hygienic. She encouraged parents to discuss the issue with their children as a health issue. I believe this is the most reasonable approach to take with primary-age children. It isn't about sex with them. It's about expressing friendship and affection. Little boys who will turn out to be heterosexual men kiss their male friends as well as their female friends (unless their family has already begun imposing macho stereotypes upon them). It *should* be explained to young children that kissing in a large institutional setting like school is simply unsanitary. On another topic: anybody change their mind or form any strong opinion following last night's debate between the two US presidential candidates? I'll show you mine if you show me yours! :)

Jason
- Monday, October 07, 1996 at 00:21:15 (CDT)

"No God is sane. How could it be? To be a Man is so much less taxing, and most men are mad. Consider the God. How much more the deranged the God must be, merely to exist. There can be no doubt: consider the Universe and the patternss on which it is run. God is mad. The God of Music is mad. The Timegod is punctual, but he is mad." -Ernest and the Machine God. I can quote too, what's your point? To rehash the old clich�, I'm Baaa-aaack. For those of you who are new or may have forgotten me (unlikely as that is) I will introduce myself. I am Jason, a physician here in the asylum of Doctors Tarr & Feather. I've been lurking for the past week or so, snatchgrabbing small children who walked unaware past my lair and feeding on them until I had enough energy to type again. Aren't you lucky. Doc-Kevin you'll be missed, I really enjoyed talking with you. Watched the Star Trek anniversary special, was surprised by Joan Collins speaking, was even more surprised by her lack of understanding about the story. Edith Keeler thought Hitler was a good guy indeed, was she pushed or did she slip good grief! And why ask Shatner? How the hell would he know? Wasn't surprised by the lack of HE's name in that speech. Only the Voyager meets Frazier sketch made it worth while. Taped Lois & Clark, the wedding of Superman and Lois Lane is something that's been building forover fifty years. I watched the episode and found myself with a powerful urge to find the writer of the episode John McNamara and make his hair bleed. As HE would describe him, he is a traitor to all the holy chores Man has ever been entrusted with.. Hidden rooms behind bookcases, a hidden room in a hidden room, with a suit of armour as the trigger no less. Clark Kent talking the villan into giving up the weapon. Lois conscious to help in the discussion only to predictably collapse when the danger was over. A woman named Myrtle Beech, whose super villan name was The Wedding Destroyer. How terrifying. And what really put it over the edge into into total crap, was the guardian angel named Mike who performed the wedding ceremony. Superman deserved better. I hope he gets it in the comic, which was rushed to accomadate the T.V. series. Comic books rarely work in other mediums with the exception of cartoons, probably because there's more of a crossover of writing talent. Just for something to talk about, any opinions on that 6 year old kid who was kept away from his class because he kissed a girl? I'm tired goodnight, Jason

Ernest and the Machine God
- Saturday, October 05, 1996 at 15:32:36 (CDT)

There was something living behind those eyes, and from silt-deep in her memory came a quote from Gerald Kersh that fit precisely... *there are men whom one hates until a certain moment when one sees, through a chink in their armour, the writhing of something nailed down and in torment.* He stared at her, and she was beautiful. More beautiful than she had ever been before. For the first time in her life, Selena was uncomplicated. Light bathed her. She felt her flow and her pulse. The boy stared at her. He was no more than sixteen years old, possibly seventeen, but he saw her as she was, reduced to her essentials. "Can you fix my car?" He did not reply. "There's something wrong with it. Can you repair it?" Shyly, he nodded yes. And the three fools feel down laughing at him. Then, oh so strange...

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Well shoot, now ya gone and done it - Thursday, October 03, 1996 at 13:48:07 (CDT)

DOC - I'll be happy to relay info for you. And I hope all your friends and admirers are the patient types - since we'll be gone Oct. 10-21.. Doing a bike tour around Lake Erie, with a few dipsy doodles to drop in on friends. Drop is the operative word for today. I've kinda dropped off, or out of sight getting ready for the trip. I've been busy doing my version of shopping - salvage yard sales for bike stuff. Pretty much got the bike customized. I forgot it is a 'new' old bike, and it hasn't gone on any long trips yet, so I had to convert it to a cruiser from the cafe-racer set up it came with. Need that cushy stuff for the long rides. Kept the racing guts, so my 'old-lady' JapScrap will kick butt on any bragging Harley-whole hog-tour-dudes I may run into.. heh, heh.. ];-)> ... Happy to hear that your phone call to HE went well, and helped with the healing process. You gonna join FOE now?? And, yeah, we'll miss you here on the Board. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Thursday, October 03, 1996 at 08:01:29 (CDT)

Doc- How can we hook you up with a Mesmer-a-Tron all your own? I don't want ya to just disappear! If you find a library with 'Net access, check in on us from time to time. Your story touched me deeply. Death stinks, but it really stinks to be the last one in the know. It leaves you mourning and raging long after everyone else has had their turn. What a drag. At least you were able to leave tribute here (as was Moira; as I did for a special bassist in my life). It ain't much; hardly a granite statue. But know that some of the eyes peering at your words through the glass see for folks who care. But you knew that, didn't you? Hang in there, good Doc. If you ever come north, look for me.

Moira <mrussell@shadow.sjcsf.edu>
- Thursday, October 03, 1996 at 02:03:34 (CDT)

Doc -- we will miss you -- I will miss you. It is very difficult for me to know what to say about your friend, because a similar tragedy happened w/me in March -- I was passing by my alma mater in town, stopped to read a bulletin board, & saw a college-wide notice that one of my favorite teachers, whom I'd always been "meaning to get back in touch with," had died two weeks before.He was an extremely gifted composer (got his Ph.D. from Harvard in his mid-twenties), a wonderful teacher, & a dear friend. I managed to deliver a eulogy at his memorial service at the college, partl about how often we fail to get back in contact with those who most deserve it....Anyhow, this is a stupid phrase, but "I know how you feel." I agree -- we are all on loan to each other. -- In Memoriam Lawrence Cave 1959-1996 -- & all other friends who are gone. -- Moira

Kevin W. Reames (known mostly to you as "Doc")
"Comedy is Hard," or, "A Public Display of Grief" - Thursday, October 03, 1996 at 01:34:41 (CDT)

I think, Miora, what you're saying is that Harlan Ellison, whatever trappings he might employ, essentially writes about people. Not only "What If," but "What Do We DO If." Y'know? How often HE remarks on the Faulkner quote, that the only stories worth telling are of "the human heart in conflict with itself." Well, on to business. I wrote this thing, this Rant, and e-mailed it to Rick. And, mere moments ago, I e-mailed him again to ask that it be withdrawn. I cited a couple lofty reasons, but the real reason (included) was that the piece just didn't say what I wanted to say. What I really wanted to say had little to do with what made it to Rick. What I really wanted to say was that I hurt so bad, I can't shoot straight. I wanted to say that I was/am so angry, I do not know whether to shit or to go blind. While toodling around the Net, Sunday last, I was into the Internet Movie Data Base, and I happened u[pon the name of my old school matey, Lou Diamond Phillips -- yeah, we shared hiogh school, and, later, film school in Dallas. Anyway. catching up with the poop of one o' his flickers that I missed, I discovered the name of another old, dear friend, our film teacher/acting coach, Adam Roarke. Adam made a lot of movies in the 60's & 70's, from AIP biker flicks, to a western with The Duke (directed by Howard Hawks), to THE STUNT-MAN in 1980, with Peter O'Toole. And stuff after that. Somehow, he settled in Dallas, opened up the Film Actors' Lab at Las Colinas, and we got chummy. It's been off'n'on, over the years, but we kept in touch. So -- I see his name there, and an incomplete list of films. I decide to click on the Bio icon, see what they have to say about my pal. What they had to say (and I bet you all saw this coming from over the hill, you bunch of Sly-Boots, you) was, "Deceased, 27 April, 1996, Dallas, TX; Cause of death: probable heart attack." Only that, and nothing more. I had spoken to Adam the previous March. He sounded fine. Now, he's so far from fine, he's eternally stabilized. And no-one had the goodness t let me know. I found out not even from a flesh-and-blood stranger, but from this here Mesmer-A-Tron. Geez, I loved that guy. I'll never forget those weird little things that made him special: how he used to fold a piece of pizza lengthwise and eat it like a sandwich; how he used to eat ice cream with a fork right out of the carton ("Sue me!"); how things would get kind of hectic and/or dificult in class, and he would turn into Geezil from the old Popeye comics ("Next to Wimpy, I hate you best!"), muttering away in barely-intelligible curses ("I'm losin' my mind. I'm losin' my f*ckin' mind,..."). Adam had run the gamut from caviar to Big Mac's, but he was always a Real Person, always made time for, well, for ME. And now he's gone, and I find out 4 bloody months later by accident, and goddamnit I'm mad. I can't help but remember and identify with Harlan's introduction to ANGRY CANDY. And, yes, I wonder about that goofy, useless shit, like, was he in the hospital? Was he home? Did he suffer? "Prone or supine?" It doesn't make any difference, like it makes no difference whether I was there or not, nothing I could've done (except maybe CPR) would've accomplished anything. My friend is gone and, oh GOD, I've been cheated, robbed of that one last opportunity to let someone else know precisely how much they've meant to me. I wanted it to be someone's fault; I wanted it to be Lou's fault, because he was always the Golden One, and he would've heard, he would've known, and I'm not that difficult for someone who knows me like THAT guy knows me to track down. So I got huffy. I got injured. I took it very personally. I became confused about celebrity effecting relationships. And I called Harlan Ellison. I figured, as he enjoys a certain amount of celebrity, he might have some insight to help me through this mental/emotional knot. I was polite. He took the time to be patient and kind with this lunatic in Texas. He said he had no insights on that. He said the question was sort of geared to the individual, and therefore, he could give me no answer that would be valid in general. What he did was, he gave me suggestions, he took time (I'm afraid I interrupted his preparations to mount his theraputic treadmill) to listen, couteously, warmly, and encouragingly. He had no answers; but there were no answers. And the celebrity thing -- maybe it's valid as a question, but it doesn't really apply to the situation. I think Harlan understands that. Because the situation is that a man who was maybe no Olivier but loved his craft and always strove to be better, who challenged ME to be better, who helped me get my head out of my ass and my life out of the potty, a paternal friend of the finest kind, has died, months ago, and my life suddenly feels a little emptier, my world a little smaller. And having said that, having said the things I couldn't get into a Rant, I'm afraid I'm going to have to take an early retirement. I am saying "Good-Bye" to all my dear friends here at Ellison Webderland -- this will be my last post. I'll still be lurking for awhile; my address and phone number will still be available to interested parties via e-mail 'til the 10th, maybe through Sue after that. It's been a delightful three months (mostly -- one or two of you, well, you know who and what you are). Please -- keep in touch. If not with me, then with someone you love and care about. We're all on loan to each other -- let's get what we can. Be well, and God bless. Good night, Mrs. Kalabash, wherever you are. Kisses, Doc

Phillip
- Wednesday, October 02, 1996 at 22:27:42 (CDT)

Ditto.

Moira
- Wednesday, October 02, 1996 at 18:12:01 (CDT)

In response to the "City" script -- are we starting a new thread -- ANOTHER HUMAN VOICE, THANK GO!!! -- today, in between temp assignments (good: free time) (bad: no money), so have time to comment: first read "City" script when I was first getting into Ellison, in a rather smashing anthology ed. by Roger Elwood of sf-fantasy teleplays, which included an adaptation of Paul Zindel's "Let Me Hear You Whisper" & a rather workmanlike but well-crafted teleplay called (I swear to God) something like "Thing," about a meterorite descending, something hatching out of red pulsating globe, etc., etc., etc. Thought, & still think, "City" is one of the best things HE ever did, certainly one of the best episodes (even with a. the bowlderization & b. Joan Collins) Classic Trek ever showed, esp. the ending (w/ the absolute classic Ellisonia in the stage directions: "If there is no porthole in the set, dammit, BUILD ONE!"). For me it was one of the few Treks (Classic, NG, etc.) that actually showed _emotional consequences_ in terms of what actions a crew member may take, what they will think about it afterwards, how it will influence their lives, how they will invest it emotionally -- a sort of mental movement back & forth in time, all implied in Ellison's script. -- Thought also HE's dramatization of Kirk's character was EXCELLENT, really bringing something to the character that was _implicit_--his love of travel, adventure, etc. (thinking esp. of that scene where he talks with the Keeper of the Portals). -- I can't remember if any of Ellison's comments on the screenplay & how it was filmed were in the anthology -- in fact, can't remember title of it, period, so would be helpful if anybody out there....Anyhow, it made a _very_ strong impression on me, both in terms of Ellison's talent & how I wanted to write my own future stories. Ellison's grasp of writing for visual mediums (media?) is pretty astounding in how he manages to combine strong images & strong dialogue to create something that really is _seen_ (think this is typical of his writing as a whole, not just screenplays, but it's most visible in his screenplays). -- The recent sepulcheral hush makes me think -- Somebody better respond to all this -- I hope!

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Wednesday, October 02, 1996 at 16:36:08 (CDT)

Sitting here listening to my Israel Vibration cd, "The Same Song" (1978)---hands down the best reggae album ever recorded. Period. A little sun shine to momentarily pull me out of the weight of my days. Aaah... Some people believe that it's good to be busy. Not me. Never have, never will. I think it's good to have something do, preferably something you feel passionate about, but being busy, nah, that ain't good. I go along with Vincent van Gogh's idea of creative idleness. Which basically states that it's only when we have time to sit around and do nothing (idle time) that our personal creativity can emerge. This kind of behaviour is often mistaken for laziness by those who don't know what you're talking about when you say "creative idleness." (Screw them.) Why am saying this? I don't know. Maybe because I've been so busy this past month, I haven't had the time to read a single HE story, and I haven't had time to write anything of my own. Man, that stinks. The last thing I was reading, though, just before my life took this drastic turn, was THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER. And I never did get around to finishing it. The intro essay was interesting until about the 3rd quarter; too repetitive after that. I read the two treatments, and by the time I got the the actual screenplay, I'd already read it *twice* from the two treatments, and I lost interest. Haven't gotten back to it since. I'd recommend to anyone who hasn't read it yet: read the intro and then go right to the screenplay---skip the treatments, read them afterwards. Anyhow, I thought the story was excellent, powerful (easy to see how pitiful the aired version is next to the original). And that's all I have to say (a little roundabout, but anyhow). Thanks for bearing with me. I gotta go get busy (yeh)... Until next time, read some good books (DREAMS WITH SHARP TEETH). Stay calm. Find some time for yourself. Take it easy... Later.

James C. Hess <104656@CompuServe.Com>
Bull Moose Mating Land, Colorado - Wednesday, October 02, 1996 at 15:54:12 (CDT)

Shhh. Be verrry, verrry qwuiet. We are hunting wabbit. Heheheheh. Anyway, any thoughts from anyone on the screenplay for THE CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER? Hello? Is this thing on? Hehehehehe. WABBIT!!!! Until next time... Jim P.S. Sorry to hear about life, Rick.

Moira
- Wednesday, October 02, 1996 at 14:33:11 (CDT)

Hi Mommy, it's me, you need to come pick me up. ....No, nobody else is here. ....Yeah, I thought the party was today....no, I don't know where everybody went. Maybe I just got the day wrong, and....Hello? Rick, have you got another quarter?....

Rick
- Wednesday, October 02, 1996 at 08:58:12 (CDT)

I'm here, Keegan - just lurking in the background. Sorry for the lack of input lately, my life's been a real mess. Things WILL get better, though.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Tuesday, October 01, 1996 at 14:37:01 (CDT)

Well, Krimenee.. Take a little break during heated discussion of a story I haven't read yet, and when I get back from tatting a doily for the TV - everyone else took a break, too.. Shoot. Well, at least I don't have to worry about what I missed. I'm gonna re-roll my nylons to just under the knee, and adjust my hair curlers now.. Since I've got the time.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Monday, September 30, 1996 at 07:12:57 (CDT)

Rick? You there? Miss you.

Moira
- Sunday, September 29, 1996 at 13:57:23 (CDT)

*BILL*Sorry haven't joined the thread: work full-time, school full-time, married full-time, blah blah blah....Re the capture in "Mefisto": I think it's actually plausible that even an intelligent crafty (& psychic to boot) psychopath could break down under the pressure of 1) his own crazed mentality 2) his own crazed behavior 3) troubles with the Law. The guy's not invincible, though he is evil, & IMHO the recent literary surge of damnnear omniscient & omnipotent serial killers is a resurrection of childhood Bogies Under the Bed. Serial killers are evil, yes, cunning, yes, usually intelligent, yes; but not _invincible_. Even tho' it's treated briefly I think HE provides enough evidence that this guy is, uh, unstable to make that particular snap convincing.

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
- Friday, September 27, 1996 at 07:49:05 (CDT)

Hey, Doc--I'd love to visit your homepage. What's the URL? And sorry, I can't remember the significance of Oct. 10. Are you leaving 'Netville? (that's a pun on the Horace Silver tune "Nutville" so now y'all get it. hardy-ha-ha-ha!)

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Rock City, - Thursday, September 26, 1996 at 10:08:13 (CDT)

Hey, *DOC*, I appreciate your comments. And I sure ain't trying to be argumentative here, especially what with your imminent departure and all. I guess that being in a writers' critique group makes me look extra hard at every which-why-wherefore of any story I read, and I wanted to know if anyone else stumbled on that one point. I think I'll ask if the members of my group will read the story as if they were critiquing it, without any fore-biasing by me, and see what they say--I've been trying to get them turned on to HE for a long time, anyway, and this might be a great opportunity. *MOIRA*, you started this "Mefisto" thread; you got some more input to add, anything else to say/discuss about the story? -- Billy D.

Doc
- Thursday, September 26, 1996 at 01:13:35 (CDT)

I'd like to propose a couple proposals here: 1.) We just don't have all the Rules of Spanky and Rudy at our disposal. This is not an uncommon state of affairs, in StoryLand. Many wonderful short stories, novellas/novelettes, even a few novels, never give an explanation, never provide a "why" the stuff happens. Makes me no nevermind, sometimes the mystery of why heightens the effect of the story. 2.) Do we actually NEED to know? Who knows what the guy's capable of in his sleep? He could, for all we know, clamp someone in his sleeping body, then go use their's to do whatever (which brings a chilling thought: would that explain consecutive Republican administrations? Like the Reagan/Busch Years? Brrrrr! Now, I'll NEVER get to sleep,...). Wow -- scared me outta my train of thought,...oh, yeah. What better alibi than being in prison? Do you know how much trouble you can get into in the Joint *without* swapping bodies? He done it that way 'cause he done it that way, 'cause he's evil and he's barking mad. And there's just no second-guessing, it's a chump's game. I think HE plays by his "groundrules" in MEFISTO. How *could* it have been a better story? Only Unca Harlan can answer that, and since he hasn't re-written or further polished it, my guess is he's satisfied with it; and if it's okay with him (on this particular matter), I'm willing to settle. Goin' back to the doorknob factory tomorrow, chiropractor says "You're vertical," still awaiting further developments with Insurance Devils (if anyone still gives a hoot; if you don't, it's alright, *I* almost don't, at this point). And remember, Children, Zero Hour (Oct. 10) is nearly on us -- anyone want to continue this via tha Great Snail? Love, Doc

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Scrape City, - Wednesday, September 25, 1996 at 10:45:26 (CDT)

*DOC* Of Course Mighty Mouse is the superior, because he could bring a hunk o' kryptonite with him to overcome Superman, or just annoy the man to death with that high screechy voice :-) (I heard that the Chipmunks are putting out a Macarena (sp?) album--as if the song wasn't annoying enough to begin with). Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to convey is that we shouldn't HAVE to speculate if HE had laid it out logically and consistently for us. This'll be my last post on the subject; I re-read the story last night, and here's what happened (funny how these details slip from your memory): 1) Spanky is caught in the dumpster scene; 2) Spanky escapes from police and a manhunt is started; 3) Spanky kills manhunt police lieutenant's wife, kids and cat; 4) Spanky is caught again in Decatur; 5) Spanky is sent to Birmingham; 5) Ally meets him and Spanky sees Rudy in her head; 6) Spanky hatches the whole wait-in-jail/frame-Rudy plot. What HE says about the second time Spanky is caught is, "by then [he] had gone so completely out of his mind that they got him again, and the second time they hung onto him. . ." which just didn't fly with me, given Spanky's long history and abilities. A guy as calculating and shrewd and long-lived and practiced as Spanky wouldn't have "gone completely out of his mind" just so HE could have a plot device. Enough said (maybe even too much said), because even reading this tale for the third time, I still couldn't put it down, the writing so great and the characters so believable and real. What's really classic is the way the antagonist becomes the catalyst for his own downfall, the turnabout. HE did it SO well. At the end of the story, Rudy thinks: "one single truth I learned waiting in there, inside my own landscape, waiting for Spanning to come and gloat: I have always been one of those miserable guys who couldn't get out of his own way." Rudy would never have done this soul-searching (landscape-searching?) if Spanky hadn't framed Rudy. Yet this very introspection is what, in the end, gave Rudy the power to overcome the monster. Yes, Mr. HE, you done it again. That's how come you's so good. That's why this story of yours made such an impression on me. -- Billy D.

Doc
The Wrong Side of the Bed (i.e., still OUT of it,...>yawn!<), wednesday, september 25, 1996 at 04:39:09 (cdt)

Geez-Louise, this MEFISTO discussion is starting to sound like, "If Superman and Mighty Mouse fought, who would win?" **JASON** with regard to your Classic Criminals synposium, I think you'll find that The Boston Strangler was indeed caught -- malcontent plumber Albert DeSalvo. I think what you're trying to say (and I know you'll correct me [or try >:}] if I'm wrong) is that Jack has surpassed simple notoriety, and even legend-status: Jack has become mythic, through the passage of time, and he was a ground-breaker in SO many ways. I find the Zodiac killer rather terrifying -- and *he* was never caught. He could still be out there,...How long is it before the Zodiac enters not just the criminal Rogues' Gallery, but modern mythology? I find it odd that H.H. Holmes isn't more widely discussed by afficionados of this macabre subject -- he was caught, yes, he was hanged for his many, MANY crimes,...but they never could decide on a total bodycount. There's a book out, recently, MUDGETT (Harry Mudgett was "Holmes'" real name), that I haven't got around to yet. If you find it, read it; it's sure to be grisly but fascinating. If you're into that sort of thing; as I clearly am. And you're right: I don't think ANYONE will ever be able to forget Al Bundy. As for your definition of Universal Evil, I don't know -- there's alot of History that has yet to be accounted for. Globally repulsive deeds? Hmm. I think it would make for a more interesting discussion to go *inside* to Interior Humanity, the things that happen in our heads that (excepting the aforementioned crew and their ilk) thankfully never make it into open practice. That *would* be a gruesome and chilling discussion. And with THAT,...Nighty-night! Love, Doc

Jason
- Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at 22:11:25 (CDT)

Bill good question let's try it this way, as what he can and can't do, he can probably work it so the cops could forget him, but maybe he could only do it one person at a time. With two cops, while he worked on one, he'd be vunerable to the other one. Two he apparently can't make someone believe they are someone else entirely, otherwise he would do it. It does say that Spanning spent all the time in the trial, because he was waiting for Rudy. As for diminishing, the downside to it is when you diminish a killer, you give him a little piece of immortality. Jack is different, but he had a sense of (for the lack of a better word) style that propelled him past other non captured killers like the Boston Strangler, I did some research a long time ago, looking at what makes a killer. Think about it, the names Bundy, Dahmer, Manson and Gacy will probably live on after you and I are gone, other serial killers not so much, because they weren't as public and they didn't produce such deviant images. I'm starting to go off topic. Look at it this way, would anyone ever forget the name of a man who killed seventy people, especially one who looks like Spanning? What I meant by diminished is he wouldn't become another Jack the Ripper, no-one who ever been caught or will be caught will become as famous as Jack. As to universal evil, what I mean is, there is no act that has been completely reviled through out the world, and/or history.

Moira
- Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at 10:49:59 (CDT)

HE mellow?? Makes me uneasy....I too rank MEFISTO high up there -- been a while since I reread it too, saving up for the hardbacked copy. -- One thing I remember is -- correct me if I'm wrong -- the "shrike-landscape" inside the murderer's mind, stretching back thru history, that was like nothing I'd ever read. THAT pinned me to the page....

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Bake City, - Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at 09:57:47 (CDT)

*MOIRA* I'll pick up "Mefisto" at the library today and re-read it. The way I remember things, when Spanky was talking to Rudy in the death-chamber scene, he said that he first learned about Rudy while looking into Ally's head, which happened well after the initial arrest; so the setup happened after the Spank-meister was already in jail. Maybe I'm just being dense on this one, and probably if HE heard my question he'd reply, "Listen you lower-than-whale-manure piece of fecal pustulant, it's all explained right there on page x...." I'll re-post later this today, after I've looked over the story again. *JASON* I agree with Moira that you have some great thoughts in your recent post, but I'm confused, and perhaps I didn't ask my question clearly enough to begin with. It certainly seems in Spanky's power to arrange people's brain circuitry (he rewired both Rudy's and Ally's--in Ally's case, to something totally the opposite of what she had believed prior), so why didn't he just rearrange the policemen's thoughts to forget that they saw him during the dumpster murder--especially if, as you claim, being caught would diminish him? Or are you saying that being caught in the first place had already diminished him, so he decided to go through with the jail charade as a sort of self-punishment? *DOC* I, too, put this story high in the canon. HE himself says he feels that he has never produced better writing. And I ain't gonna argue with that. Also, did anyone else catch HE on Sci-fi Buzz this weekend talking about his heart attack/surgery? I've never seen him more mellow--or filmed in such subdued lighting. -- Billy D.

Phillip Cairns
- Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at 07:34:36 (CDT)

Yes, he's my brother (not my sister).

Jody Cairns
- Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at 06:36:04 (CDT)

HE has an article at OMNI's web site at: http://www.omnimag.com/fiction/cyclops/ Check it out, folks.

Doc
Eyes going dim...Must have,...More chicken soup,..., - Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at 02:20:14 (CDT)

JASON -- hate to stickle you thi-a-way, but define "universal" for me. As in, "common to human beans", or "throughout the cosmos?" **MOIRA** MEFISTO is high in the Ellison canon, ranks with A BOY AND HIS DOG, and ALL THE LIES THAT ARE MY LIFE. I think you were/are right about Spanky being on the prowl for Rudy -- been awhile since I read it. THAT would make sense for his staying in jail. He gets a scape-goat, AND he gets rid of a potential threat, possibly the most real threat he's faced in years/decades/centuries/millenia. TOO tired, must go. Anyone intersted in my WebPage? It's NEW, it's TINY, it HAS A LINK TO WEBDERLAND!!! Must close. Love, Doc

Moira
- Tuesday, September 24, 1996 at 01:24:03 (CDT)

**HEY ANYONE**If you want to keep on trying to discuss "Mefisto in Onyx" I'm still willing....

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Well, I, uh, would you rephrase that question? - Monday, September 23, 1996 at 18:22:05 (CDT)

**JASON** been noodging Universal Evil.. Is that the opposite of Universal Good (as in God, so it refers to Satan), or something less specific like entropy, or sinfulness?? Does it relate to specific places like psychics talk about? To specific events, like genocide, that breed eternal aftermaths of equal nastiness? I thought I had a quick answer for you, but then I actually thought - so now I'm just confused... Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Moira
- Monday, September 23, 1996 at 14:50:49 (CDT)

*KEEGAN*Right on the money as far as my reactions were concerned--I thought you put it better, that _Rudy_ himself was so convinced (which is, after all, a big part of the story: how evil walks around undetected in human skin), & I also was UPSET when it happened. Would've put the book down right there if I could've, but, good for me, didn't, & was rewarded w/ending of genuine redemption. *JASON*Those were 2 great phrases there: "he gives people a face to accompany the nightmares" and "when you catch a killer you diminish him." I'm jealous.*BILL*Think I pretty much go with Jason's explanation -- also, forgive me if I'm wrong, wasn't the killer _aware_ of Rudy for some time? (Don't have copy of book with me.) In that case it would be a total set-up which would be in keeping with the killer's character. -- What about the ending? At first I didn't like it, but then was genuinely & deeply moved by it. -- Anybody else feel that way?

Jason
- Monday, September 23, 1996 at 13:47:55 (CDT)

Okay Mefisto first, then what I meant by my earlier statement. Why didn't he jump out? Some possible reasons maybe all of them. He's an egomaniac, he likes to sign his name like some twisted artist. He also gives people a face to accompany the nightmares. When you catch a killer he's diminished, who is the most famous or infamous serial killer of them all, Jack the Ripper. Why nobody outside of the Ripperologists, know many of the details, nobody knows that he named himself in a letter to a newspaper, what everybody knows is that he was never caught. Spanky knew that, he was after all Bloody Jack according to HE. Spanky allowed himself to get caught, and when he did he had to stay as long as possible to avoid the attention that switching bodies would bring, I don't think it was in his power to make someone believe they are somebody else entirely. I will admit that complete turn of direction in the middle when Rudy thought he was the killer threw me for a bit, it came a little too fast for me. I still love the story though. As for a movie release, I would expect it for at least a year HE is working on the screenplay now. As for my topic, the question is, is there such thing as an universal evil? a wrong that carried through or does the definitions change for current circumstances. It came up in a class a couple of days ago, and I was curious as to your thoughts. Jason

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Slat Lake City, - Monday, September 23, 1996 at 10:29:20 (CDT)

POINT ONE: As much as I liked (loved) "Mefisto," the bit of logic I keep stumbling over is why the psycho let himself be arrested and kept in jail so long anyway. It's obvious that he could rework people's minds to make them believe anything he wanted, so why didn't he just reroute the arresting officers' memories when they nabbed him in that dumpster to begin with? He could easily have made them forget that they had seen him carving up the woman. He certainly didn't do it just to meet Ally, because he had no idea about her yet; she never even came to visit him in the slammer until well into the case, after she had consolidated all the warrants from the various States--or maybe he had encountered her earlier, in a courtroom at a pre-trial hearing or some such--in any case, long after the arrest. Why did he let himself be jailed and held in the first place? What did he hope to gain? POINT TWO: One thing that struck me about the story was that, by doing the right thing, by being a person-of-character, you don't always get rewarded. In fact, it might make your life miserable, as it did Rudy's. He decided that, despite his power, he was going to remain a decent chap--and look where it got him: few friends, unable to hold a job, and people wanting to exploit him when they did discover his talent. POINT THREE: From my perspective (white-as-Crisco-shortening WASP), HE did a great job of putting himself into the head of an African-American. Can anybody out there of a different ethnicity than mine confirm or refute that? POINT FOUR: Eoes anyone know if a schedule has yet been planned for a cinema and/or TV release of "Mefisto?" -- Billy D.

Phillip
- Monday, September 23, 1996 at 09:41:56 (CDT)

i've read mefist twice from its original publication in omni. the last time was about a year ago. and i still can't remember what it about. all i can remember is that i knew what was going to happen about half way through it. i'll have to read it again. (forgive the typos. systems difficulites.)

keegan
- Monday, September 23, 1996 at 07:16:11 (CDT)

I loved "Mefisto". Took it out of our local library and couldn't put it down until it was finished. Insisted that my husband read it immediately, too. Very satisfying story. I was bugged by how the authorities (and Ally herself) just accepted Rudy's story, but I agree with Moira that they probably had no reason not to believe. I think that was an important part of the plot--that Rudy himself was so convinced of the murders that there was no reason to disbelieve him. Gotta say that when that happened in the story, I was quite upset. Liked the way it all turned out, though. It was, in my opinion, a great example of why I like HE's stories so much--it grabbed my gut and wouldn't let go. Hope the movie happens and that it's done right.

Moira
"MEFISTO" - Monday, September 23, 1996 at 00:10:41 (CDT)

*BILL*Well, the first time I read it, I was in a library, & decided to "just flip through it." Wound up sitting on the UNM library floor reading it through (and then rereading bits) for at least an hour and a half & my blood was definitely _chilled._ -- I don't have a copy with me but I think when the lead character (don't remember his name, either) confesses he gives them so many details _only_ the killer would know, so there didn't seem to be much point in looking for alibis....At first I wasn't sure if I _liked_ the book but then absolutely couldn't get it out of my head (stuck there in shards, like glass). What about the "Anubis" story -- ? I had the same (delayed) reaction....I think as HE's getting older, he's getting better at scaring the crap out of people. (Maybe because he's more aware of his own mortality. I don't know.)

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
- Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 23:28:18 (CDT)

Moira, I'd love to discuss "Mefisto in Onyx"--what did you have in mind? I read that baby while riding an exercise bike, and I think I burned more calories that day than any other, because there was no way I was leaving until I finished. I read the little hardback novella version, and am I just imagining it, or does the guy behind bars in the artwork look like a short sixty-ish writer we all know, or what? I do have two questions about the story. 1) Why didn't the psychopath ever jump bodies after he was arrested and get out of jail long before he met Ally? 2) When the lead character (can't remember his name) confessed to all those murders, it seems like there should have been a lot of evidence that he "wasn't" in all those places when he said he was. Even Ally herself could probably have provided him with an alibi on one or more occaisons. I guess HE did do a good job, though, of showing the guy didn't have many friends or a good job, so not many people could vouch for him. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks. -- Billy D.

keegan
- Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 20:56:52 (CDT)

Jason--I can live with that. After all, when I do decide to drink to the point where I can't drive, I don't get behind the wheel. And if I *have* to get behind the wheel, I don't drink. That's my point about responsibility. As far as not doing anything around people that they "don't like", well, I try not to do that, either. No reason to purposely egg people on to anger. Sometimes, people get pissed off no matter what ya do, even if you're perfect. Trouble is, "they" think *they're* perfect, too. Whatcha gonna do? I, also, kind of want to see the "dog and pony show" before commenting. What do you mean, exactly? Lead on, oh Northern Neighbor!

Moira <mrussell@shadow.sjcsf.edu>
oh yeah, Rick and Harlan - Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 18:20:07 (CDT)

Yeah, Rick, how WAS your vacation? (grovel, grovel.....let's not forget who provides the space for us all to congregate in!) And does anybody want to discuss ELLISON? I'm _dying_ to discuss "Mefisto in Onyx"....and what's the story with White Wolf? And what about Babylon 5?

Doc
- Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 18:08:14 (CDT)

STEVE, my little Zaz-a-roo. I thought we were probably closer to agreement thatn anyone was letting on. Cut-n-dried justice isn't justice at all, neither is having a judge with A.) a Magic Eightball, or B.) a flat rate. And yes, we *should* -- if we want to remain individuals (There's an interesting/frightening concept -- Thought-Communism. Hmmmm,...**MOIRA** yeah, it can get all kinds o' too-heavy; some of those outtings take themselves entirely too seriously, in all the wrong ways. How does the dratted quote go? "An artist taking his work seriously is a necessity; an artist taking himself seriously is a mistake." Is that it? I'm sure JASON will be able to enlighten me, and speaking of JASON, if you want to start a topic, then, Man, start a topic. You obviously have something in mind, so trot them dogs an' ponies out for us! I'll wait to see if I'm right about What Your're Getting At; THEN I'll go-off. **SUE** they gave you the Golf Channel?!? THEY should be paying YOU! Love, Doc

Jason
- Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 17:28:16 (CDT)

Doc, Steve I enjoyed that immensely. Keegan let's leave it at this do what you want, but if you're going to anything that can chemically alter the way you think or act, do it somewhere where you can't affect anyone who doesn't like or know what you're doing. Here's a statement that should bring up some dissagreement, it follows on the last argument but does not deal with it. There is no such thing as an Evil person or act. There are only trangressions against the current morality. Well discuss. Jason p.s. Rick, how was your vacation?

Moira <mrussell@shadow.sjcsf.edu>
well since you ASKED, - Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 17:11:18 (CDT)

*DOC*Now that you've made up with Steve you can start w/me :).....Is it too much to say I want to see another movie set in a "Bladerunner"-type future like I want to discuss OJ: polluted fog, streets on fire, vicious gangs (as far as I can tell from the promos), yeah yeah yeah, I got it. **SUE**Thanks for the legal advice & the email on Newsgroups (elevating you to saint status). We are currently subscribed to a newsgroup that apparently originates from Africa, Pakistan or India. We are still trying to find out what the language is. Go ahead, have your laugh for the day on us....

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 17:01:12 (CDT)

Well, DARN! Just got settled in with my drugs (cigarettes, coffee), rock-N-roll (Primus, Bare Naked Ladies), and a smug smile - prepared to *really* enjoy flaunting sinfulness in the secure anonymity of Cyberspace, and the whole morals debate ends in a handshake. Takes the fun out of it, when it doesn't have the potential to piss someone off. Shoot.. What am I gonna do with the Twinkies?? ... (;-)~ ... **MOIRA** I'm not a lawyer, but the way I got it from the 'experts' is that a criminal prosecution deals only with statutes specified in the criminal code, and deals with punishment of violators as a matter of "The Govt vs. The Schmoe accused". The victim is 'evidence'. Civil cases are "Victim vs. The Schmoe accused", and are a matter of restitution for damages. So as near as I can tell, criminal and civil are related, but independant, with different 'rules' to achieve different end results.. Hope that helps you.. Left me scratching my head.. I still haven't figured out why some violations of my rights are criminal (like if *I* smoke pot, I violated my rights?), and others are not (like if you run into my car and destroy it, you didn't violate my rights?). But hey, gimme time and I'll get it all worked out.. Right after I figure out why deregulation that has led to market pressures 'forcing' mergers and downsizing reducing competition and employement is good for me.. Somehow, I just can't get a wrap on that.. And giving me the Golf Channel doesn't make up for not lowering the bill, you hear me Cable Guy?? So when are the lower prices I'm promised gonna happen? Siggghhhh.. Never figured out if I am so smart I see through the bull, or so stupid I was looking in the wrong field.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Steve <zazu@spectra.net>
- Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 13:31:20 (CDT)

*Doc* Michigan won; a pair of late BC turnovers gave Michigan a pair of TDs. Wolverines won 20-14. As for your most recent words on the ethics/morals debate, I actually agree with you on all your points. Does that surprise you? :) In actuality, what I believe is the correct way to have rules/laws set up is to have a minimum of them, have them all simple, and have them all be so basic and clearly logical that anyone willing to take the time to examine the laws/rules would conclude that, overall, they are for the best. I also despise having people tell me what to do, because in general it's been my experience that despite my own array of imperfections, I tend to be right more often that wrong (and judging from what I know of you, I'm sure you find yourself in that same frustrating boat). Also, most people want you to do things because either they want to profit from it, or they espouse a political and/or social agenda that just isn't right. And I'm sure we don't have to agree on what *is* right to agree on what's wrong. :) One last thing to add, perhaps as just a last thought than as something to provoke further argument, and I swear, if anyone wants to make a last comment on this, that's fine, but I'm shutting the heck up afterwards for the sake of peace. It's true that morals can and will be different for every individual. But *should* it be that way? (I'm reminded of my experience trying to explain some of the tenets of a recent betseller about male vs. female communication styles to a friend of mine, and having to tell him "This book is not a treatise on the way things *should* be, it's a treatise about how things *currently are*, and how to deal with those facts.") Oh! As far as movies go, I'm waiting for Pocahontas to come out on LD so I can add to my Disney collection (despite my not liking that film at all), can't wait for Hunchback to hit the video market, am looking forward to catching Fargo, Mission, ID4, and a few other flicks here and there, prolly on video (I generally won't pay the cash for a movie in a theater unless it's Disney, or my wife really wants to see it). Recent movie I liked: The Secret of Roan Innish. Later.

Doc
- Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 12:31:15 (CDT)

Well, if those are your priorities,...might I be so bold as to ask "Why?" I'm pretty certain it's mostly a rehash, I'm entirely sure it's unnecessary, but I'm not so sure there aren't any interesting sub-plots (i.e., Iggy Pop). So, come now, tell us all, explain your vehemence. If you want. Or don't. Love, Doc

Moira <mrussell@shadow.scjsf.edu>
....just to stir things up a bit...., - Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 03:12:03 (CDT)

Personally, I'd rather eat ground glass with cyanide stirred in than see "The Crow" sequel....

Doc
Let Me Just Say This About That,..., - Sunday, September 22, 1996 at 02:33:57 (CDT)

HA! Snuck in anyway! Take THAT, Mesmer-A-Tronic fiend! And THAT! And THAT! Phew! Well, now -- STEVE -- about them two proposals: #1 dodges nothing, because I want you to consider rewording #2. The PRACTICE of ethics can and WILL be different for each individual. From there, we can get into a rather thick discussion of motive vs. action. How many times have we ALL put our best foot forward,...right into doggy doo? My main objection is a having a person or group of persons TELL me how I hae to live my life. I choose to try to practice (er, um, difficult term here) Common Decency (a vanishing specie), the Golden Rule, and like that. I understand the need for laws and rules. I spent (too long) awhile working in Behavioral Mod. (deliver me, O Lord, I'd rather write for teevee, than EVER do that some more), where we made the equation drastically simple for our teenage gangster clients/patients: Motive A + Action B = Consequence C. At this point in the discussion, and this hour of the evening/morning, I have to push the bags under my eyes out of the way so I can even get at the keyboard, and I'm beginning to wonder whether we actually disagree, or if our respective syntax is just making us bristle at each other. But I maintain that blanket application of laws/rules, without consideration of the indiviual and/or their circumstances, is neither morality nor justice. So there. Now. Anybody seen "The Crow" sequel yet? **SUE** got stuck watching The Game while glutting myself on pizza (which is bad for me! Call a cop! Easy, Steve, I'm kidding, KIDDING, put that net away,...), but I missed the end. Did Michigan win, or Boston College? Like I care, but I know how much these things mean to my chums, and I care about my chums a great deal. Even wiseguy yankees who argue semantics,...'Tis tired and I am late. Yes, Steve, let's talk about anything else. Love, Doc

Steve again
- Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 23:35:40 (CDT)

Doc: if it's becoming apparent to you that we're only going to continue endlessly butting our heads in this matter, I'm willing to agree to disagree, and move on to some other topic. :)

Steve Pagano
- Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 23:30:48 (CDT)

*Doc* My definition of morals may come fourth in Oxford, but remember, each individual definition in that book was written by a single human being and only reviewed by a group of four or more others. Are we to automatically take their word as to which definition is the most important? Were they all studied in all forms of ethics? Were they even more studied than you or I in ethics? Perhaps so, but perhaps not. In any event, to blindly accept/trust the words and/or values of another human being is utter foolishness. I fully expect everyone to question the validity of every statement I make; I also expect (rather foolishly, perhaps) that when people do question my words, they take the time and thought necessary to come to a logical, informed decision as to those words' truth or lack thereof. In any event, you asked what we as a society have a right to impose upon other in this society. What we have a right to do, as a society, is demand that there be penalties for such offenses as killing, stealing, cheating, and lying, and causing undue harm to an individual or thing. If you tell me that morals begin with the individual, you IMO mean one of two things: 1) the actual practice of the morals must begin with the individual. This, to a good extent, I agree with, tho it dodges a great number of other issues. 2) The formation of a code of morals can and must be different for each individual person. This cannot be further from correct. If we were to assume this second axiom, then we'd immediately have to conclude that there could be no laws, because everyone should be able to do whatever they decide is best for themselves (and everyone else), which is hedonism in is basest form. And that, simply put, is not morals for the individual; it is no morals, and in any event society (and humankind) would be reduced to rubble by it within the space of a year. Which do you mean? Or is it something else entirely that I'm just overlooking?

Doc
- Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 13:52:08 (CDT)

Look, Steve -- Old Buddy -- you are only mostly grievously mistaken. In *MY* dictionary (Oxford American), your definition doesn't come up 'til number four. That's the only distinctly plural application I can find. Call them ethics, call them principles, call them whatever. I concede the POSSIBILITY that we (can) pick them up from each other -- BUT they have to originate with the individual, they must be practiced by the idividual, FIRST, and that means leading by example. Exactly what iis it that you or Society have the right to decide the correctness of for other groups or individuals? And consider the Crusades for a moment. We might have to decide to agree to disagree on this; or we're just no longer hearing each other, in which case further rumbling is moot, right now.

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
East Nowheresville, Ex-Marioland - Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 12:11:08 (CDT)

*Bill* Ok, first, I should say that what I would fear most is if ether big govt *or* big business wipes out the other. The former would undoubtedly be a dictatorship, and the latter a plutocracy (and who's to say we don't have an unhealthy mix of both of those already?). We need big business to generate money so that we can all make livings and maintain the standard of living we have set up for ourselves -- and to generate the income and production level to generate enough taxes to support the govt -- and we need govt to provide infrastructure, lawmaking and enforcement, and to keep big business from busting out of its britches. The problem is too much of either, and we're heading that way on both counts. You've mentioned some good examples as to how big business is getting out of hand. later I'll try mentioning some stuff about the govt. In the meanwhile, I have a few thoughts: suppose the govt implements some program or such that has honestly good results (not counting the fact that the govt would spend twice what was necessary to do it), but the program was founded not for the interest of the common people but instead for the interest of political or military power. Would the results *necessarily* be good too, or would they perhaps be necessarily tainted? Wouldn't it be best, in the long run, to have the govt do things *for* the people and not *to* the people? And even then, I don't mean to imply that the govt should provide for us, like a parent supporting its children; but that when it *does* do something, do it for *us*, not for the govt or politicians. Are there *any* govt programs that fit *all* of these criteria: a) fiscally sound, b) not politically motivated, c) not power-motivated, d) not meant to generate more money for politicians? The interstate road system comes close, if it doesn't fit in perfectly. I do support the infrastructure programs (despite their monetary wastes). But what else is there? *Moira* The way I understand it, civil suits and criminal cases are condidered wholly disparate from one another, tho I suspect one can enter said criminal result as evidence in a civil case. One can be found liable in a civil suit even if one is found not guilty in the criminal case. As an example, suppose a man attacks a woman with a knife, without motive, and he severely scars her face. In the criminal case, it's very possible that the confession, the knife, and any other bit of evidence may get thrown out because of improper police procedure and the like. But the laws for the civil cases are different, and so these bits of evidence may make in into evidence in the civil case when they were disalllowed in the criminal, and hence you might be able to 'convict' (per se) in the civil case where you couldn't in the criminal. *Doc* The problem that I see with your argument is: mrals are not something that can be done on an individual basis, because morals by definition are social/societal things, that are either true for everyone or no-one. Morals are decided by logic and clear thought, not by whim and choler. Of course, it's plain to see that none of the groups you mentioned (or that come to mind) when you talked about poeple trying to stuff their righteous morals down everyone else's throat, are groups that actually have morals based on morals: they base their morals on whim, on emotions, on politics, and occasionally on faith in a religion (which is actually inaccurate: we know that it's their own spin on said religion, and what the religion was supposed to mean is thrown out the window). The government is all to quick to try to legislate morals, but none too quick to think about what they legislate therein, or to justify with logic and reason their decisions; they just want to push their political agenda and/or their (usually uninformed) opinions, and they also just love to give the people what they're screaming for -- even if it's morally indefensible -- just to look good. How many morals do we really need? How bloody complicated do the laws all have to be? A corollary to Occam's Razor is: the simpler, the better. Yes, we do need laws, but we need simple ones, without the countless loopholes, without countless subcases. The more complicated the laws we get, the greater the number of laws, the more things just slip through our fingers. One last question for everyone: most politicians come from the same 'stock', per se: meaning that they all come from just a very small number of different (academic) disciplines. Does it at all worry you that politicians know virtually nothing about science, literature, mathematics, and other discipines, but they continually make important decisions within some of those disciplines (most notably science) when they honestly don't have even the slightest idea what they're deciding about? I'm reminded of when one (I think county) government somewhere nearby decided that deer-hunting is barbaric and should be banned, as it's cruel and inhuman to deer. Over the next few years, since there were suddenly so many more deer around, and the same amount of food for them all, the deer got all small and scrawny, fell victim to a lot more disease, and got into problems by encroaching too far into human-run territory. The ordinance was repealed, and soon the deer population became healthy and stable again. Biologists know that when you mess with an ecosystem, even with just one area, you can completely destroy it. By killing off the majority of the predator species in the northeast (like wolves and mountain lions), humans removed from the ecosystem the factor that controlled the deer population, and thus actually greatly endangered the entire population of deer, and endangered teh whole system as well. Hunting has done a good job in replacing the predator factor, and has helped keep the balance at least somewhat intact. Biologists knew this, but the politicians didn't. Last note: I don't hunt, myself. I've met too many people whom I know hunt, who I'd be terrified to be anyhere near in the woods. But I do think hunting is a necessary thing, when done in the controlled fashion as it is (and even tho there's still a lot of poaching, things are still within acceptable bounds as far as Mother Nature is concerned).

yet again (don't shoot!)
- Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 10:47:35 (CDT)

A thought occured: Sometimes *style* transcends good musicianship. I dunno. What's Art? (no,no, no, no, no, no, NO! We are NOT going THERE again!!!!) -/:>P I'm going to go have a life now.

keegan again
- Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 10:44:25 (CDT)

Whoops. I never finished the next to the last sentence in my last post. After the parentheses describing Flakes, insert ",I'll sign off with this". I'm sure you were just *dying* to know that. And no, I can't seem to learn how to spell when typing (for some reason, I do better with a pen. Viva Spellchecker!).

keegan
- Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 10:31:30 (CDT)

Ah, yes, Moira. Marketing. Don't forget easy credit. 18-29 year olds tend to be susceptable to advertising. I think it's the first time in many peoples' lives when they have complete control over their own financials. When I stopped asking my parents for money, I went through an earn and spend phase. Husband (then fiance) and I got a gold card because we both had college educations, worked steadily and said "WTF?". We bought cool stuff, racked up a lot of debt, took out consolidation loans, then had the *brilliant* idea to have children while we are still young. We both have good jobs and pay our bills, but the fact is, we would be in SO much better shape if we had been financially wise from the beginning and saved our money like Good Grasshoppers rather than eating in every trendy restaurant and buying those cool CD's (oh and paying for that little wedding with only nominal assistance from the bride's family). Anyway, we were suckers for the market and I admit it, I have to constantly fight the urge to overspend on the attractively packaged dreck.... WHICH brings me to music. I like diversity in the airwaves. I like lots of different styles and intents of musics. My personal favorite is Jazz, but I also LOVE rock and roll, "alternative", Classical, Folk, whatever..... I think good musicianship transcends style. A great folk singer playing triads and seventh chords on the banjo can entertain and affect as deeply as a Mahler symphony. They touch different areas of the soul and diversity opens the soul to the limitless. Now that you all think I'm a New-Age Flake (*free with this box!!!* Super-Duper Glow-in-the-Dark Crystal Ball Keychain with inscribe Psychic 1-900-hot-line!!). Now that I'm getting older, I basically care about (and can afford) three things: 1) Does it work? 2) Will it last? 3) Is it cheap?

Moira
- Saturday, September 21, 1996 at 00:08:49 (CDT)

*DOC* -- Think there's a reference in one of the "Edge in My Voice" columns to rock music, in response to a fan letter, where HE indicates what rock music he likes & where he signs off on it -- Know what you mean o n theVariations for Accordion stuff: it's madly popular down here in NM, blasted from many radios in cruising areas. My husband calls it "Mexico's answer to Lawrence Welk"....As for the Alternative stuff: I have friends who were "into" alternative in oh, 1989 or so, who sulked when Nirvana became popular. Apparently record companies realized young people LISTEN to stuff like Nirvana (can't call _them_ slow) &, as you may have noticed, record companies/TV movie producers tend to go after the 18-29 markets like crazed starving wolverines after a limping rabbit. As a certified card-carrying member of the twentynothing generation I can attest to the fact that most airwave space seemed to be devoted to the greatest hits of the 60's . Not that the 60's music isn't great, but....Not that I worship Kurt Cobain, either.

Doc
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 23:37:44 (CDT)

STEVE -- Thanks for clarifying that. I STILL think "morals" can only be successfully applied on an individual basis. It's an unfortunate fact that sooooooo many people disguise their infliction of their own morals on others as "Doing It For Their/Your Own Good." Rather than leading by example, which includes speaking out about one's beliefs, they want to MAKE people behave the Right Way, without consideration of those people's circumstances/background/culture/whatever. They want to drape themselves in a Blanket of Righteousness (I really wanted to say "The Flag," but who knows where THAT would lead?), and inflict blanket "solutions" when not only do those solutions not always apply, they could do more harm than good, and THAT should be "morally unacceptable." Can ya dig it? Thank God for the opportunity to clarify. And (last time, I swear to GOD) about the OJ misunderstanding: what we had here was a failure to communicate. YOUR retraction is graciously and humbly (ho-ho) accepted. A Black Adder fan can't be ALL bad,...**BILL** some excellent and very interesting points. I'll add an inflamatory fer instance: Lincoln was a great man. The Civil War was NOT something I would've liked to try to President during. BUT -- anyone out there ever really *read* the Emancipation Proclamation? In case you didn't know, it only freed the slaves in the Confederate States. Those states which did not cecede were not effected by it. Abolition was a wonderful cause -- but our Civil War was about the Right of Cecession. Not Slavery. Spooky, huh? We are allowed by our Constitution to take arms and replace the government if we don't like it, but we can't wander off peaceably and start another country we DO like. MEANWHILE, in another part of the forest, SUE mentioned rock'n'roll. HE has stated frequently in the past that "rock and roll is no longer something [he] can listen to without [his] teeth ache" When did this transition occur? Anybody have any ideas, on HE or themselves? And why is it called "Alternative," when it's all you can get on the radio? HERE, anyway. I can pick up KNUT when the wind's right, otherwise it's Pop 40, C&W, the farm report, talk shows, and Latino music (not Salsa, which I kinda like, but that Variations on a Theme for Accordian stuff). THIS should be interesting. Love, Doc

keegan
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 23:09:08 (CDT)

Well.....I can't get to cei.net today and all hell breaks loose. JASON- I think drugs act differently on individuals. Taking *any* drug, even polio vaccine, is a risk. Yep, it's a stupid risk, but I still maintain that it's MY right to decide how I alter my brain and my body so long as I handle *my* life and *my* responsibilities.Maybe I can handle it; then maybe again it'll kill me. Some people can drink and others can't without becomig addicts. I think no one should risk taking a drug with known deadly effects. Again, if *all* someone does is smoke reefer all day; if it's the main focus of their existence, then of COURSE they've got a problem. But I still maintain that a moderate amount of marijuana is relatively benign, and probably less harmful than alcohol. What kills me is that someone could be sent to prison (or death row in one case I heard of on "60 Minutes") over marijuana. I don't believe marijuana should be promoted, but I do favor its decriminalization. If you don't like it, fine. Choose the high road and I'll respect you. I have friends who still have serious habits. I love them no less and deem myself no better. I hate the self-righteousness of those who choose not to indulge. That tone makes me wanna go out and drink bourbon 'til I puke. Everyone thinks they have all the answers.... BTW: I actually prefer Ho-Ho's to Twinkies, but I liked the suggestion of cheeziness in the Twinkie imagery.

Moira <uh-oh>
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 23:02:04 (CDT)

*SUE* baby, I don't think you should've made that comment about psychics contacting the Two Most Famous Murder Victims of the Decade (what happened to the Manson murders as the "crime of the century"....?), I can hear 'em sharpening their crystal balls right now....At this point I'm thinking of writing my own book (hell, everybody else has): "Diary of a Private Citizen....How a Trial Thousands of Miles Away Successfully Invaded My Life...." BTW a strictly legal question here. *STEVE* I understand evidence can be brought into a civil case not admissible in a criminal court, but how to you convict someone in civil court if they're acquitted in criminal? Wouldn't that iolate double jeopardy? What's the legal basis for it? (If we're stuck on this OJ trip I might as well learn something.)

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Lick City, - Friday, September 20, 1996 at 21:57:57 (CDT)

Steve, thanks for responding. No, I wasn't referring to Amtrak, which is modern government-subsidized business, but rather to a bygone era when trains, both passenger and freight, provided most of the long-distance transportation in America. OF COURSE there were political, non-altruistic motives behind the space program, but that doesn't nullify its worth, or the good motives that DID exist. I also admit that there were political motives behind the Interstate Highway System, another well-done government project. The President of GM was the head of the Dept. of Transportation, I believe, at the time. He's the one who said, "What's good for GM *IS* good for America." And he wanted to build more and better roads so he could sell a scad more cars. Still, I'm glad we have the highways today--and they ARE userful for military transport, one of their original intents. But let's go back even further. Do you think that the Revolutionary War itself wasn't politically motivated? Do you think that those good old boys were only concerned with sublime ideals like "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?" Hell, no. There were politics behind it, my boy--just like there were politics behind the Boston Tea Party. Yet that doesn't diminish the good that came out of either of those events. Did'ja ever notice that the only things those upstart American colonists protested about in their lofty Declaration of Independence were things that affected them directly, that were committed against them mano-a-mano? And here's one I'll bet you never heard: the Declaration refers to Native Americans as "savages, whose only desire is to murder and destroy" (something close to that; the quote's not exact). President Clinton just designated 2.1 million acres here in Utah as a National Monument, which I think is a good thing--though folks here in Zion (i.e., Utah) are mightily pissed about it--900 potential coal mine jobs lost, ya know. I got me no doubts that politics played a part in the decision (especially since this is the only State where Clinton came in 3rd in 1992). But it's a damned good idea, this protecting of the land for future generations. Do you think that Jim Crow laws would have been abolished without the federal government? Fat chance. Do you think that child labor laws would have happened without our elected legislature? Shit, uh-uh no. Businesses care about making a profit, not treating people with dignity. The last thing we need is a government MORE friendly to big business. Look at Reagan's touted tax-code rewrite of the mid-1980's. You'll find it sprinkled with loopholes, bypasses and exceptions for certain corporations. And oh, heaven forbid those corporations were mentioned by name. No, the law says things like, "the contract that was signed on such-and-such a date shall be exempt"; "prior agreements made on this-or-that topic shall not be included"; etc.; etc.. It's not big government that I fear, it's big business. Government wants only to spend my money; corporate America wants to spend my soul. God, I can ramble. Enough for now. -- Billy D.

Phillip
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 17:30:38 (CDT)

This doesn't have anything to do with anything, but screw it. *Jason* In one of your earlier postings, you mentioned dropping by the World's Biggest Bookstore, Edward St., downtown Toronto, to pick up a few books. I used to work there. Got *loads and loads* of free books. My best scoop: HE's Hornbook; retail: $30.50 Can.; I paid: $00.00. And that's the only positive thing I have to say about the job. They don't care about books there. They know what sells, and that's about it. I didn't like working there. Most of the people I worked with didn't even *read* books. It's the World's Biggest Bookstore, but it could just as well be K-Mart. When I look at the books in my collection, I see them as works or art. But seeing the business of books up close, well, it left a bad taste in my mouth. (One time I saw a pile of about 20 Harlan Ellison paperbacks have their covers torn off to be returned to the publisher and the books themselves thrown in the garbage. I think I quit about a week later.) Like I said, this has nothing to do with anything. As you were.

Steve
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 15:59:45 (CDT)

'precious' below should of course read 'previous'. :P

Steve again
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 15:56:57 (CDT)

Sue: I gotta agree, that letter you got was, well, uncalled-for. I agree with Doc in that this whole mess has no real business being dragged out in front of us; who are we to decide upon guilt (or innocence, for that matter)? It's no-one's place to decide that someone is guilty before a trial, and looking back at a precious post of mine, I see that I most certainly implied that I thought a certain perosn was guilty despite the trial outcome. I've no right to do so, and I hereby rescind the implication. *Doc* and *Jason* One of the weird things about the US legal system is that you can often get into evidence in a civil case, a number of things that would be inadmissible in a criminal case, both of which pertainto the same crime; and as well sometimes you only have to convince the majority of a jury that you're right instead of having to convince them all, and so it's much easier to 'convict' in a civil case. My apologies if you knew this already, and I'm just being dense and missing your points.

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 15:46:51 (CDT)

Ok, lessee here.... *Jason* Gotta agree with you, "not guilty" and "innocent" are two very different things; from what I remember, the jury in the you-know-who trial didn't say that they thought you-know-who was innocent, they just couldn't buy the time frame and everything else the prosecution laid out. Botched job by the DA's office. That, I promise, is my last mention of He Who Shall Go Unnamed. :) *Bill* Yup, you got me dead to rights: the Sixteenth Amendment. My apologies. I still do not at all agree that such taxation is moral, but I won't now argue its legality or constitutionality. However, I have a few questions about what you mentioned as examples of the government doing good with our money via investing in technology. 1) Was the space program pushed because of an honest want for technology, or for reasons of propoganda (we beat dem Commies inta space), warfare, and/or territorialism? And why in the blazes is the govt so willing to pay such high prices for such things (I'm sure we all remember the $800 hammers from a handful of years back)? 2) By the train system, you mean the freight-moving trains, yes? Not Amtrak, surely. 3) The government is very interested in tech, yes; but they are so interested in it that all other academic disciplines are falling by the wayside when it comes to government grants. Some friends of mine who did grad work at another university were appalled when they found out that some of the grad students were making stipends of over $30K/year, about thrice what all other grad students were making, and the reason for the increased wage was because the science projects these higher-paids were working on were of use to the govt, and hence were heavily funded. Is it really so good a thing to be the most technically advanced country on the planet if at the same time Literature, History, Mathematics, Music, and a vast swath of other humanities vanish? *Doc* When you say that it's not my place to morally judge a thing, exactly what do you mean? I ask because I honestly don't understand the message you wish to convey to me. When it comes right down to it, it is not me who decides morals, it is logic, reason, and understanding. I don't claim to be perfect on any of those fronts; but it is clear (for example) that one cannot morally kill a person in cold blood for the sheer sake of killing, nor is it moral to allow someone else to accidentally or purposely kill someone, especially (but not necessarily only) if there's no driving moral reason *why* that person should kill. Why should a thing be allowed if it is known to kill, its use/doing is known to put other humans in danger, and the only reason people give for its doing is mere pleasure? You also mentioned that we (as a people) aren't happy unless someone else is suffering, and you say that we should all be rebuilding and not destroying. I can only say that I act as I know is moral whenever possible, I strive to know what is moral when I don't know the answer (which is often the case), and in general the way I act and behave is to basically do my own thing without imposing upon, or potentially causing harm to, other people. If I find I am harming or unduly imposing upon another person, I apologize and change my ways. I only dare to begin telling people what to do if it's something that's *clear* to me is wrong, and there are *very* few things that fall into this category (I can probably count them on the fingers of one hand). When one performs an action that is done for no other reason than "I want to", and the action causes either deaths, harm to others, or even undue inconveniences to others, it's undeniably wrong; otherwise we justify everything from random killings to shoving your way in front of someone in line at the grocery store. Recreational drugs serve no other purpose than 'entertainment' (tho the things Jason pointed out about alcohol don't strike me as being fun either), yet they almost to a one cause harm to the user and diminish the user's capacity for clear thought and/or physical coordination, both of which are extroardinarily dangerous things. Hence, use of recreational drugs is immoral. Eating Twinkies may cause small bits of health problems to the consumer in the long run (as can any food if eaten too profusively), but *in general* the eating of a Twinkie doesn't hurt anyone else, nor does it impair your ability to think or act. Hence, eating Twinkies is perfectly allowable. Caffeine, even though many people don't like it, is one of the few drugs I can find acceptable, for the same reasons I find Twinkies acceptable. And finally, as I'm sure you're aware, the morality of a thing isn't determined by whether or not you like a thing. I hate Twinkies, and I hate cats. But I'm not going to tell anyone, for any reason, not to eat Twinkies or own cats. I think that that, Doc, is what you really mean: we can't just go around pointing fingers and shouting 'immoral!' at things the we just don't like. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me! :) Talk to you all later.

Doc
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 15:09:27 (CDT)

**JASON** Is this the part where you whip off your mask, revealing that you are actually Judge Ito? No? You WEREN'T at the scene/on the jury/in the courtroom? Honest, you WEREN'T? Then shut the hell up about things on which you haven't sufficient information to have an opinion. The "civil" case? I dunno how you sue someone for doing something the court says they didn't do. And why is it the Nation's/World's business? You ignore the statement "innocent until proven guilty," and BTW, I'm well accquainted with that difference. Do I seem abrasive? Good -- and the term is "bellicose." If you want to continue this, my e-mail address is around here someplace. In deference to Moira, who is rocking gently and mumbling to herself at the prospect of another O.J. discussion, and Sue, who has enough to deal with, I resign my comments on the subject, as far as this board is concerned; no need to subject the unwilling (people) to the unworthy or unwanted (topic). I don't defend his guilt or innocence, since I am unqualified to weigh either, but I DO defend his right to be left the hell alone by,...I was going to stop this, here wasn't I? Okay -- for those so inclined, see you in my chambers. Love, Doc

Sue Luesse
I see the drugs and OJ, where's the sex and rock-N-roll? - Friday, September 20, 1996 at 13:02:29 (CDT)

Thought I'd muddy the waters with a bit a fact. Got a nice 5 page letter in the mail today from the "Family of Ronald Goldman", thanking me for my support and prayers (? I don't know them), and understanding my desire to "to do something, to make a difference" (? Thought I already was), referring to "him" (that's a sic), promising to put "him" on the witness stand and force "him" to testify (but I'm sick of hearing about "him"), with bold print, underlined "let us assure you, we will never settle. What we want is justice for Ron.", oh...yeah.. and the preaddressed envelope to mail my check to the Ron Goldman Justice Fund, complete with bar-coded coupon with amounts conveniently boxed for checking off.. Nowhere was it mentioned that all costs for civil suits are paid for by the losing side (unless they settle out of court), or what amount of money they are suing for (which they get, not the departed). Hhhmmm... It's getting hard to believe there are ANY innocents involved in that mess. One wonders if the deceased would be pushing their tell-all books on the circuit if they could.. And how long it will be before some Psychic Medium contacts them, and contracts for them.. **MOIRA** that makes TWO of us. I can't even stay at home minding my own business any more.. Enough already. Try High - Fly Stright - Drive Safe

Moira
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 00:49:16 (CDT)

No OJ! No OJ! Please! Please! Please!

Jason
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 00:21:21 (CDT)

I'll expand on this later too tired now, but Doc what happens if OJ is found guilty in the civil case then what? What the jury saw is a lot different from what everybody else saw. Being found not guilty is not the same as being found innocent. In order to be found not guilty all you have to do is show reasonable doubt. If you think he probably did it but there is a reasonable possiblity that he didn't, you HAVE to vote not guilty. OJ is free because the prosecution botched the case, not because he didn't do it.

Jason
- Friday, September 20, 1996 at 00:09:08 (CDT)

All right we appear to be talking about recreational drug use. Personally I can't stand the lot of them, from tobacco to liquor to marijuana. I did do some checking on the effects of Marijuana, remeber you're only entitled to an informed opinion, and Keegan has some points on the negative effects of Marijuana, but she's also missing some, marijuana can affect your muscle coordination long after the subjective effects wear off. One study shows impaired ability to properly operate a vehicle 24 hours after smoking one joint. There's more problems than you think Keegan. Should it be allowed for medical use, possibly under proper guidance. For recreational use no I don't think so. Keegan your argument about bright talented people smoking MJ doesn't mean anything many bright talented, motivated people required psychiatric care, Van Gogh and Artaud who was the father of expressionistic theatre to name two. I don't like recreational drugs, they're a short cut. You want to relax read a book, take a bath, eat a chocolate bar. I will admit I inhaled, a couple of times at a cast party, I came away with a lower opinion of people who use this stuff regularly, then I did going in. People alter their ability to think normally for what? A tingling feeling in the forehead? A craving for sweets? Why do people feel a need to have their control taken away in order to have a good time? I've seen people so drunk they can't walk up stairs. I knew a person who claimed they were stone cold sober despite having a glass of champagne and a couple shots of tequila 15 mniutes before, five minutes after she said that she was dancing to Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen on a piano bench. Later that night she had to drink a lot of water because everytime she closed her eyes she got nauseous. The question is should we allow these dangerous chemicals to be consumed the public? It's the same thing as asking should we force people to wear their safety belts. Do people have the right to be stupid? Kids are supposed to be protected by law because they don't know better, but what about 'adults' people do recreational drugs because they feel could, they don't care what happens to their lungs or their liver or their brain, because it feels good NOW. Legalise all drugs, tell them what happens if they use it, make it even more deadly if possible. Put all the people want nothiung to do with it someplace safe and let the stupid people die out. The rest will learn. Not a nice solution but it would probable work. Jason

Doc
Blowing on the Coals, - Friday, September 20, 1996 at 00:06:01 (CDT)

**STEVE** Dear Steve; Pal; Steve-a-reen-o -- it is not up to you to advocate, or morally accept a damn thing. Ya don't like it? Don't DO it, and try to discourage it in as human and humanely a manner as possible, if you feel "the drive" to do so. And, speaking of that Dear Ol' Constitution, isn't there something in there somewhere about "innocent until proven guilty?" I bring this up because, obviously you've forgotten or ignored a third possibility re: OJ, that being "He's not guilty of the crime." Don't gimme stuff about all the facts as you heard 'em day-in and day-out on CNN, NPR, or whatever. I was not at the scene of the crime, I was not on the jury, I was not in the courtroom, as I suspect neither was anyone else on or lurking around this board, which includes my esteemed colleague, Steve. While all that foolishness was going on, I was reading one of HE's books (actually, several; it went on for a long time), and, while introducing one of the stories, he made some rather astonishing statements about a certain lady in Fall River, Mass., a long time ago, who was accused of murdering her parents, tried, acquitted by the courts, and was STILL convicted in the minds of the rest of the townspeople. In fact, the sweet children of that age have immortalized her in verse: Lizzy Borden took an ax, etc., etc. And, I repeat, the court acquitted her! Are we ghouls and sour-grapes? MUST we decide, regardless of the facts and the results of Our Legal System, the fate of others? It's like that Bradbury story, "The Crowd:" we gather and, ultimately, decide the life or death of the guy in the wreckage. What gives us this "right?" Just how much does the public have the "right" to know, and WHY do we seem to think we have that right? Are we so dissatisfied that we can have no peace unless we can sink our teeth into someone enjoying greater success, or attention? If the murderer had been Aloyicious Schmidlapp, from the corner mini-mart, it never would have made CNN. If it had been Avery Stoopnagle who had been caught keeping his hands to himself in a Florida peepshow, Paul Reubens would still have a career, and Pee Wee's Playhouse would probably be running yet (which wouldn't be a bad idea -- the medium suited him, and it was alot more stimulating for kids than those WRETCHED Smurfs!). But, no-ho-hoooo, we get to decide, the Almighty Public! WE control the vertical, we control the horizontal, and speaking of horizontal, we get to tell you who you can sleep with, what color spouse to have, what church to worship at, what to read, WHETHER to read, what to watch on teevee, what movies to go to, what clothes to wear. We have to quantify, to pigeon-hole, we NEED to be in control to be safe, so if the court says "Not Guilty," we convict 'em anyway. 'Cause we're smart, 'cause we're wise, 'cause we're so godawful scared of each other, we've got to make someone suffer just so we have something to focus on, to agree on. And it's costing the lives of people like Lizzy Borden, and Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle, and Paul Reubens, and OJ Simpson. We have absolutely got to stop shooting our own wounded. Here he comes with Bill Burroughs again. From "A Thanksgiving Prayer:" "Thanks for a country where no-one's allowed to mind his own business/Thanks for a nation of finks." I'm not saying don't get involved, don't have an opinion; I'm saying try to help (re)build, not add to the rubble. I'm saying, for starters, stop accusing a man of something of which the legal system has acquitted him; it's defamatory, and doesn't help solve anything. And having said that (again), I must confess -- we really *are* APPROACHING OBLIVION. I'm just in One Of Those Moods. "Because it is bitter, and because it is my heart. Damned insurance devils. Damned lawyers. **SUE** a congratulatory slap on the kid's butt (you've seen football players do this all the time). Fight for goodness and niceness. **KEEGAN** have a Twinkie for me (even though I do rather prefer Ding Dongs). I am not in a very good place. Perhaps I'll look in later, decant a fresh bottle of vitriol. Ciao.

Bill Dennis
- Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 23:30:00 (CDT)

Sorry, one thing I forgot to mention, regarding congress issuing itself a pay raise. Along with the 10 original amendment which we call the Bill of Rights, there were two other proposals which weren't ratified. One of them specified that congress could not issue itself a pay raise which took effect in the same congressional session. To date, only three more States are needed to ratify this amendment. Since no time limit was imposed on the original amendment, it can still make it. So get an almanac, find out if your State has ratified, and if not, write your congressperson or start a signature campaign. -- Billy D.

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Shake City, - Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 23:15:26 (CDT)

Steve: Sorry, dude, but taxing our income is prefectly constitutional. The amendment was proposed (pushed for by good old Republican President Taft), was ratified by the necessary number of States, and became a bonafide legal addition to that blessed document. The whole process happened just the way the original framers specified. It don't get no more by-the-book than that. And as for your assertion that the government can't do anything right, I sure do differ with you there, too. Not only in its preamble, but also in one of its articles, the Constitution calls for the government to "promote the general welfare." Over the course of U.S. history, the federal government has invested money in technologies up front which, at the time, were too expensive for private business to incur, but which, after successful implementation by the government, were taken over by private business. Our railroad system is a good early example. A more recent area might be the space program which, most agree, will soon begin the transition to being privately run. The government does a hell of a lot of good in a hell of a lot of ways. Yeah, sure, ain't no doubt they could handle much of our money a ton better than they do, and, also yeah, they've had some monumental screw-ups. But I, for one, feel a whole bunch better that we have 'em around. One lady on a recent talk show here in Salt Lake City, the heart of Conservatavia, said she feared the Federal Government more than she feared a burglar with a gun in her house. She doesn't realize where any of our lives would be without those we elect. Okay, okay, rant over and out. -- Billy D.

Steve Pagano
- Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 16:10:14 (CDT)

Ok, first, yes, I was a bit too quick to generalize about smokers. I'm sure it's only ten or twenty percent of smokers who think the world is their ashtray etc., and the rest are basically as conscientious as I am in my smoking (no cigarettes, only pipes and cigars). It's just that I always seem to encounter those ten percent; I can't go to any outdoor event without having smoke blown directly into my eyes at least once, and I have cigarette butts bouncing off my windshield every day. Drives me bats. As far as banning tobacco, there's one big reason I don't object to it: tobacco contains an addictive drug which has markedly harmful effects on the body, both while it's in effect and while the body attempts to break the addiction to the drug. As far as national health care goes, it just isn't feasible because of the costs. I don't believe in the constitutionality of taxing our income in the first place, and any further raise in our tazes would be less than forgivable. And when it comes right down to it, the government has *never* run a profitable business, meaning we've never gotten our money's worth from *any* government program. The govt is just way too, well, incompetent in money matters. As far as what I think our money should pay for, I can't support a national health care system which simply cannot work as hoped (nothing run by the govt does), but even less can I support politicians' wages. The idea that Congress can vote itself a pay raise is just plain revolting. We're their supposed bosses, yes? Then why can't *we* decide whether they get raises or not? Hmph. One last comment: in re the costs of health care, one of the things driving costs through the roof is malpractice lawsuits. Not only is the cost of malpractice insurance very inflated, but the fear of being sued for malpractice makes hospitals want to run every last test in the book on a patient, even for something as obvious as just a cut finger, just so that the hospital can be assured it's covered legally; and if an insurance company is paying the hospital bill, then the more the merrier. That of course just drives insurance costs up, making health care less and less affordable....

keegan
- Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 14:47:10 (CDT)

Oh yeah--I can choose to indulge all my unhealthy little habits like smoking (TOBACCO!), eating Twinkies and sitting around surfing the 'Net for hours when I *should* be working out. I might get sick. Fortunately, I have good benefits through my job and I would hope that all those payroll deductions would at least buy me some decent painkillers should it come down to the Big C. Hopefully the taxpayers *won't* have to pay my hospital bills. But I'll tell ya one thing: As a taxpayer, I would much rather see my money go toward paying someone's health care or hospitalization costs (even if their illness was "their fault") than I would seeing my money buy perks for high-level government officials. I personally think national health-care coverage is a good idea. Sure, it will raise taxes, but if I get good return from my government, I think it's money well-spent. Maybe I'm just a Big Bonafide Bleedin' Heart Liberal. Sure, tax and spend, but spend it on something besides high-tech defense toys and limos for de Big Shots. I feel better about paying taxes when I think I'm actually going to get something out of it.

keegan
- Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 13:45:23 (CDT)

quick note: I believe that any drug that can kill you outright *should* be illegal. Stuff like heroin, crack, cocaine--all that stuff can kill immediately. 'Course, I guess that itty bitty list could contain alcohol, too, since it is possible to poison oneself to death in one long sitting. Marijuana has never been known to kill anyone (unless they were doing somthing stupid while completely stoned). I am NOT, note NOT, saying it's good for you, simply that it hardly poses the same dangers as, say, heroin. Also, I don't think reefer makes you "irrational". Many, many bright, talented, motivated people smoke it. The only dangers I see in it are 1)health problems much like those of (legal) tobacco and 2) jail. I think that the memory loss thing is overrated and that it doesn't happen to everyone, even after prolonged use. Marijuana is an unprocessed plant that grows naturally as opposed to heroin or cocaine which are chemically processed powders. Face it, chewing coca leaves is markedly different from snorting cocaine. I've never done either, but I've had the pain to witness some of my friends struggle with cocaine and it seems to me that coca is a mild stimulant (much like my beloved java) while cocaine is just plain crazy. Oh, I also smoke cigarettes and I pick my butts up and stash 'em until such time as I can dispose of them properly. Does this mean I'll get into heaven? :) Final thought: there are some that want to see a prohibition on cigarettes much like the prohibition on other drugs. What's next? A prohibition on Twinkies because they're nutritionally empty? I really believe it should be up to me to decide what I put into my body.

Moira
- Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 12:03:36 (CDT)

*STEVE*Please please please please no OJ debates....not that I ain't interested in debates/commentary on race/spousal abuse/juries/law/etc. but I'm just _so sick_ of hearing about him.....last time I counted there were at least a dozen books out there on it: Darden (1), Clark (1 in progress), Ito (ditto), Shapiro, Dershowitz, Bugliosi, Toobin, at least 3 paperback quickies, novelization by Dominick Dunne, at least 2 maybe 3 by jurors....Sigh. -- And hey, _I'm_ a smoker, & I don't puff in faces, flick butts at cars, or even litter gutters. Speaking of which, how about that court decision that cigarette companies had to spend millions of dollars advertising against their own product. Call me crazy, but that didn't seem fair -- I mean, the Surgeon General's warnings are on the packs & the information is definitely out there....**SUE** Congrats & celebrations on getting rid of the corrupt Prof from Hell. I hadn't ever heard anything like that before. Glad he's gone. Are the students (including your kid) pressing ahead with the suit?

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 10:53:26 (CDT)

*Jason, Philip, et al* My apologies for being too Ameri-centric in my last posting. :) *re: professors and classes and such* Speaking as a college lecturer myself, I must say that 1) I also despised classes wherein attendance directly affected my grade, but 2) the main reason why most freshman courses are attendance-required is simply because there *generally* tend to be only two types of freshman who skip class: geniuses, and F's. The attendance requirement is an attempt to save the students from themselves to some extent, to avoid having to answer questions over and over again because no-one is attending, and having to mark semi-clueless papers generated by the F students who don't attend classes. As an example, to grade a typical exam that has a grade over 80 or under 30 takes about ten to fifteen minutes, while it takes double that or more for the really confusing, full-of-shoveled-stuff papers that get 48's. In any event, the more conscientious students will learn in their first year or two when they can and can't skip classes, and so by the time one gets to the more advanced classes, it's more common to accept occasional (or in some cases complete) skipping of the class. But also remember: not all of us who teach in college are among the instrctors who don't care, and it's very easy to interpret skipping of classes as a criticism against one's teaching style. *Re: Dole and Clinton* I don't care that Slick Willy smoked pot; I cared that he lied about it to cover his *ss. *re: drugs in general* It would be nice, if we were able to just legalize all drugs and let the chips fall as they may. The problems in this are: 1) there are just too many drugs out there that are addictive and can or will cause permanent damage to someone who gets hooked, perhaps even killing them outright. It would seem to me that one of the few things a govt really should do is have laws in place to make access to such self-destructiveness more difficult, especially considering how, say, a 'typical' teenager can easily see that leaping off a bridge would be detrimental to his/her health, but that he/she often cannot or will not see the fact that they cannot handle the side-effects or the addictiveness of a drug. Most teens think they're indestructible, and honestly don't know better. One argument that I've heard against this whole idea is: natural selection. The problem is that if the selection doesn't kill the person, we as taxpayers end up footing the bill way too often. 2) People simply haven't shown that they can be trusted to act responsibly enough to *not* go hurting or endangering others when under the influence. People still drink and drive, and insist that they're hurting no-one, but it's beyond clear that they're endangering themselves and everyone else on the road. Smokers still blow their smoke in my face, throw cigarette butts at my car, and litter. I can only shudder at what chaos might occur if drug use were made legal, even if there were laws against public use/disply of use, as there is with alcohol. In general, I cannot advocate the use, or permission of use, of any drug that impairs one's ability to think rationally and/or operate a moving vehicle. That kills off almost every drug there is that people want to use recreationally. *last note* I agree that we should spend more time and energy putting rapists and murderers and the like in prison than we should spend chasing 'casual' marijuana-smokers around. However, 1) this does not automatically make marijuana-smoking legal, or even morally acceptable. 2) It's a lot easier, from a legal standpoint, to prove someone was in possession of marijuana, or under the influence of the drug, than it is to prove that person X killed/raped/attacked person Y. Point fingers at the legal system for that problem. We could, of course, throw out the Bill of Rights, and make it scads easier to convict violent criminals, but I doubt that what we'd gain therein would outweigh what we'd lose. (But, it really steams me when a crucial piece of evidence is declared inadmissible in a case, and as a result a violent criminal goes free.) Anyone got a few suggestions about what the US legal system might be able to do, to improve things? I mean, besides the obvious. :) One suggestion I would have is to put limits on the ability of the lawyers on both sides of the court to challenge potential jurors, to try to hand-pick a jury that they think will win them the case. That's one of the two reasons that OJ is running free (the other one being a wholly botched prosecution) -- OJ's team did a better job at choosing jury members. They went through, what, like 2000 jurors!? Comments, anyone?

Sue Luesse
Life conspires to keep me humble, - Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 10:46:10 (CDT)

That shoulda been *toilet* paper.. GEEZ! couldn't even get THAT right! PS to *STEVE* - not to worry about that former Prof. The system can be quick and merciless sometimes. They found him completely guilty in a mere 3 days, and 'got rid of the problem'. They also removed the grades he gave from student transcripts - so they could weasle out of the lawsuit.. Let's hear it for the Guardians of Integrity.. And to **MR. NOVINS** - Nope, life aint fair. That's why each person's response to injustice DOES make a difference. Other than "Hhhrumph. Tsk, tsk" - how you doing??

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Well, yes...it did feel warm and gooey between my toes when I stepped in it.. - Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 09:17:57 (CDT)

I think the toiet paper should be hung so it falls over the top towards the eager hand as it unrolls... This is another one of those Moral Issues - that will be decided and acted on by each individual - and folks just will pass judgement on each other - and then the Gubment *has* to step in and decide for us all - but there is no practical way for them to do it - but it doesn't matter, cause they're the Gubment and take Firm Action that solves problems..... I find it odd that people who will argue at leangth that suicide is an obviously natural right, and shouldn't be a matter of Crime and Punishment (because how ya gonna stop 'em? And if their life is THAT bad.. And it's their life) - will take the opposite POV if the suicide of choice is a slow death rather than a quick one.. The idea of Public Morals always confuses me. Seems like an oxymoron.. But I DO find the discussion very interesting as individual POV's. **STEVE** - Not to diminish your most interesting post.. But Jason and Phillip aren't American, they're Canadian.. I think there are a few folks who drop in from time to time that are not Americans. It's hard to tell in Cyberspace where posts drop in from.. But it does make a difference. Thought I'd say it before Jason went ballistic... (;-) .... Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Moira <mrussell@shadow.sjcsf.edu>
- Thursday, September 19, 1996 at 01:09:40 (CDT)

*DOC*On the drug thang....I think you hit the nail on the head (to not coin a phrase) in saying (paraphrasing here) that no matter how many PSA's or air raids over Colombia or drug busts there are, the problem ain't gonna stop until the people who _want_ to take drugs, don't want to do it anymore. And that's largely a matter for the individual, to do or not to do, and nothing the gov't does or doesn't do is probably going to make onedamnbit of difference. I had dear friends in Florida who all did nothing more than beer & pot (one of them was a small-time pot dealer who cleaned up his act in order to get back with his family & small daughter)....but they did it _every_ night, & not one of them wasn't bothered by it. They (I'm talking about a circle of friends meeting regularly at one guys' house here, about 6-8 people) all had "accepted" that getting wasted was part of their "normal" daily (nightly) routine, and all of them didn't like it....but not enough to talk to each other about it. No Colombian cartel here, no billion-dollar smuggling operation, just a half-dozen-strong circle of good friends who had a Problem shared in common....They all knew I didn't like it, and never pressured me to do any of it with them, but I wouldn't have dreamed of sermonizing or telling the cop who lived a few doors away. I don't see how something like that can possibly be the government's business -- most of them held solid jobs, a few were students, and what _possible_ purpose could've been served by putting them in jail? None of them had ever broken the law otherwise....On the other hand, I guess I think crack & heroin dealers should probably be prosecuted to some extent?, because of how those drugs can _ruin_ people almost instantaneously. -- Reckless endangerment of human life, perhaps? -- I don't know -- I'm ambivalent about it. I do know this: I think it depends almost entirely on the individual, & whether he/she truly _desires_ to stop or not. I don't think anything else matters much, certainly not Bob Dole yammering about how "teenage drug use has skyrocketed under Clinton" -- as if Clinton were out there handing out drugs to kids as they entered the school building (New Government Policy! Get your drugs Here! -- or something to that effect). _I_ saw drug use skyrocket in my own junior high nearly fifteen years ago and that had nothing to do with Clinton. Unless he's part of some Vast Conspiracy, & I don't watch the _X-Files_ _that_ much.

Doc (the *Good* Twin)
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 23:30:18 (CDT)

The grumpy cuss sleeps, so, this erratum message: "Going for the dealers is NOT going to solve the problem,..." Of course, you KNEW that, didn't you? Sweet Dreams, Children. Good Night to All, and God Bless. Doc O<:)

Doc <sbolerjack@texoma.com>
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 23:19:32 (CDT)

**SUE, MOIRA, & KEEGAN (not necessarily in that order)** I've always rather liked the late Dr. Tim's take on the "Just Say 'No'" campaign: "Just Say 'No Thank You.'" In South Texas, some genius lays claim to "Say Nope To Dope." I've met the guy -- he's honestly proud of that little jewel. It's a tough question that individuals must decide; no fair making the guvmint decide for us. Punishment needs to be more individualized for offenses, that much I do know. Couple years ago (again in So. Texas), a guy was outta work, had a really hungry family, couldn't get a job *anywhere*, and somehow got hooked up with some mugs. He accepted an offer to transport some (ALOT) of marijuana for them. Well, guy gets caught. The authorities pursue (and get) the maximum sentence PER UNIT (X years/certain weight). So, making an example, in the interests of Justice of course, this poor schlep is currently serving something attrocious like 99 years. In his early thirties, he'll be in his 50s before he comes up for parole. His children will all be out of high school (provided they have the opportunity to finish) before he gets out, if he gets out. The gentleman happens to be Hispanic. Meanwhile, in another part of the Big House, rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and, and, well, lots of career criminals are out on the streets in the time it takes Dan Quayle to spell 'potato' correctly. What are we really saying to the "independent pharmacists" of this fair land? "Don't get caught," is the apparent message. This poor schmoe gambled and lost hard; a one-time offense, and it cost him his life. I don't mean that he wasn't THAT guilty, I don't say that his unfortunate circumstances excuse the act -- nonono. I'm saying that sending a desperate man to prison while murderous thugs roam free is the REAL crime. And I have sat in a car with the motor running, with a guy who was trying to get his stolen-by-a-crack-head-ex-friend car back, while rocks o' crack and straight razors were waved under my nose. I KNOW who the thugs are. Which brings me to discussion of what William S. Burroughs described as "the Algebra of Need." It's the most insideous sort of pyramid scheme. Going for the dealers is gonna get rid of the problem, jailing the Bosses isn't going to solve the problem. Anybody -- ANYBODY -- who's been out there on the lines (no pun intended) can and will tell you, there's ALWAYS someone there, ready to step in and take their place. Jailing John Gotti didn't send the Organization crashing to its knees. Raining doo-doo on the world of that Colombian whatzizname hasn't effected the traffic in cocaine. No, Dear Friends, you want to close a business, steal their customers, find something better, fill the empty, lonely places. Business (and it is a business) is "supply and demand." Eliminate "demand," and who cares how great the supply is? CDs vs. LPs -- not a profound analogy, but it's all I can come up with at the moment. How do we do this? Well, that leads back to an old diatribe I've already posted about good-neighborism. We've simply got to start doing for each other. Perhaps we cannot eliminate all need; perhaps we can eliminate enough of it that people no longer feel the need to commit recreational suicide. If you wanna go do dope, go do dope, go expend,...er, *expand* your consciousness. But, again borrowing from Burroughs, "A word to the wiseguy." I've been there, Dear Friends, but that particular yellow brick road led to a living waking nightmare, and I don't ever want to go back. Good or ill, I tell you, there really is no place like home. Human(e) responsibility isn't always fast-acting, pleasant-tasting; but it really is longer-lasting pain relief. Speaking of pain, I went to the chiropractor today, got contorted back into the proper shape, and "strongly advised" to take a week off from the doorknob factory. And, right about now, I'm feeling the effects of the adjustment -- oy. This is definitely going on the insurance claim, if I can ever get hold of the blessed/dratted lawyer to negotiate the settlement. Currently, I will only be on Webderland until October 13th. Then my roomie is getting married, and taking the Mesmer-a-Tron with him. If this wraps up quickly and satisfactorily, I'll hardly miss a beat; if not, well, some of you have my address. If you don't, e-mail me at the above URL, just get your orders in before, say, October 10th. And, having gone on so long about loving-kindness, I must now cancel it out and besmirch my karma: *I'd* like Bob Dole better if he took cyanide. >:} Love, Doc

Mr. Novins <Heartbreak City>
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 22:00:11 (CDT)

I feel a deep sadness for people who look back on all the times they took acid as "good times." And they smile while they're talking about it. Dropping just before sex. How the greatest musical experience of their life was at a concert in Toronto when they saw, "Floyd on acid." Really sad.

keegan <oops.com>
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 21:41:18 (CDT)

I trust y'all'll deal w/ the typos below. One line somewhere down there *should* say that I had to adhere to the attendance policy even though I was not a *freshman*. And no, I have NOT been excercising my "personal freedoms". :)

keegan
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 21:30:50 (CDT)

Wanna know what I hated about college? Freshman level courses where attendance (or, specifically, lack thereof) had the potential to knowck down your grade. I took a freshman-level Lab Psych course when I was a junior (had just signed on for a minor in Psychology and had to meet a core requirement). The rat-guy was great. Lab was fun and I'll never forget the friendly times with a certain little white rat named Rudolph who pushed a mean-ass Skinner bar. But I digress... the LECTURER in the course was a completely uninteresting man who rehashed the reading assignments in a monotone voice. After the first test (on which I got an A) I asked him if I really *had* to come to class to get a good grade. I told him I was perfectly capable of reading and understanding the text on my own and would prefer to spend class time doing something more productive than listening to a reiteration of the reading. He said, yes, the attendance policy was a requirement even though I was not a junior. Couldn't stand the "lectures". Went to a painful minimum. Scored A's and B's on the tests--got a C in the class. Oh well. About drugs and drug use--I know that HE hates 'em and has nothing to do with them. That's fine. But drugs of all kinds, the legal and the illegal have their advantages and their unwanted side effects. I think people like to lump "drugs" altogether as one thing, but drugs are all very different. Aspirin is not the same as cocaine. Heroin is not the same as Prozac. Crack isn't like acid. There's nothin' like marijuana. I believe that drug use is an issue of personal freedom and responsibility. After all, I can legally drink all the alcohol I want as long as I don't work or drive under its' influence. I don't feel that using drugs recreationally necessarily makes a person irresponsible or immoral. I personally don't care if Clinton *had* inhaled. I might like Dole better if he'd take a toke and mellow out (kidding, kidding! Sheeesh! Don't crucify me puh-leeze!). Seriously though, I don't think that non-violent drug users belong in prisons. Those cells would be better used to house rapists and pedophiles.

Peter Jay Novins
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 20:59:29 (CDT)

Most professors stink. You pay all that money for a "higher" education, and half the time they say, "Read chapter one. There'll be a test on it next week. End of lesson." Being a professor *is not* the same as being a teacher. That's the problem. They should be hired, not just for their knowlege, but for their ability to teach. But 19 times out of 20, that just ain't the case. What a gyp.

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 19:18:17 (CDT)

*SUE* I've said it in private mail, and I'll say it here: GO GET THAT BAST*RD!!!! Ahem, excuse me. Just had to say it. *Jason* It never fails to sicken me when I see how much this country is in the toilet, with every group telling every other group that everything is the other group's fault. The Republicans say everything is the Democrats' fault, and vice versa, while in truth it's everyone's fault -- both parties' for being stupid, and being so bent on making the other party look bad that it takes precedence over doing the right thing, and it's our fault too for electing these morons. Our fault as a country, that is; God knows how much we are all trying to make things better. I'm reminded of a pair of stories that just smoke me, both involving prejudice in surprise places. First one: I worked at a hospital one summer, as the triage desk clerk in the emergency room. Now, for those of you who don't know (as was I before I got the job), triage is the process in which a nurse has a look at everyone who comes into the ER, and then prioritizes them according to urgency; those with problems that are more serious are taken first, and so on. There was this one time when a woman came in with her 3-year-old, because the child has some rash or something else that wasn't very serious, and because it was an incredibly busy day, and the problem her child had was so low priority, she was made to wait. The woman made an awful lot of noise, complaining vehemently that her child was absolutely dying, and that she had a right to be looked at because she had been there so long. The ER staff were almost to this woman and her child when another child was rushed in by ambulance; this second child had a shunt in her brain, and the shunt was malfunctioning, and if she wasn't rushed into surgery she could have easily died. The second child was of course rushed into the OR immediately, bypassing all other patients in the waiting room, notably the first child, with the noisy mother. After the second child was rushed in, tearful parents close behind, the irst mother loudly proclaimed, "The only reason they're taking that baby before mine is because *that* little girl is *White*!" I was floored. No further comments needed for that one. Second story: at one of the four colleges I attended, there was once a date auction being held by the Asian student's union, as a fund-raiser for their organization. Well, the Womyn's Center got wind of this grand event, and stormed the event just as it got started, outbidding everyone for every last woman offering herself as a date. The Womyn's Center group then cowed the Asian students' union group into allowing the Womyn to seize the microphone and deliver a long diatribe about the evils of the sexism shown in the date auction, about the evils of respression of women, and so forth, and how the Womyn had outbid everyone so that they could 'liberate' these women. The problem? All the women who had volunteered to be dates were exactly that: volunteers. But even more significantly, there had been a large contingent of men who'd also offered themselves as dates, but that Womyn's Center didn't bid a penny on a single one. Perhaps the Womyn's Center thinks that only women are in need of liberating/rescuing? Was it right for males to be allowed to be auctioned off, while it was wrong for females to be offered? I always thought that equality of the genders meant the elimination of double standards.... *Moira* Well, Chihuahuas don't hack up hairballs or get tangled in phone cords, but they do on occasion get their claws stuck in afghans. :) *All* I don't know which is worse, a candidate who won't admit that nicotine is addictive and re-vamps old didn't-work-the-first-time-so-why-the-hell-do-you-think-it'll-work-now anti-drug campaigns, or a candidate who lies about his own drug use and then allows drug use to go up by 50% during his tenure in office. Talk about a classic Hobson's Choice.

Moira
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 18:42:10 (CDT)

*SUE* -- actually, I heard it a little differently: "Dole on drugs: 'Just say no again.' " The possibilities are endles....

Sue "again" Luesse
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 18:12:04 (CDT)

Can't resist.. Anyone else catch Dole's *NEW* Anti-drug slogan?? His heavy hitter - "Just don't do it"... *giggle*

Sue Luesse
Whoa, who turned off the rainbow crystal good karma bubble blowing machine?? - Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 17:37:24 (CDT)

Was there a sale on "bummer", and I missed it?? I *HATE* missing out on BIG 'slash', 'below wholesale' events .. Specially when everyone else can show off their trophies, and all I have is the same old junk... (;-)... Must be getting close to elections.. **JIM** OK. I'll play the straight wo/man (isn't being PC kinda silly sometimes?). WHAT TWO THINGS? Geez.. I'm such a push-over. It's embarassing. Is this a good time to get into some of HE's more biting essays, what with the happy-meter leaving so much room for Attytude?? Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Moira Russell <me again>
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 16:29:54 (CDT)

Hi there, me again, sorry about the double posting, had a mishap while trying to send it. No flames, please. C'mon. Have a little pity. She's a long-haired cat....

Moira Russell <stop the world, I wanna get off >
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 16:28:12 (CDT)

Was about to add a witty and provocative comment (NO, no, not provocative in THAT sense) when I heard a gagging sound from the kitchen. Ran in to find my cat had JUST thrown up a hairball on the floor. Holding witty comment in mind, cleaned up hairball, reassured cat (after she throws up, she wants to be told she's not a bad girl for messing up the floor) and quickly returned to type in said WAPC. Cat, still seeking reassurance, came after me, twined round my ankles, tripped on the twin phone/modem cords, tried to get over them, got her foot stuck in a loop, yanked the phone and the receiver down onto the floor, and started jerking her leg to get it out of the loop, which would have yanked the phone cord out of the modem jack. After I disentangled her and averted disaster, she sat on the couch and glared at me. So much for the Witty and Provocative Comment. This pretty sums up my _entire life_ at this point, so I'll just leave it at that.

Moira Russell <stop the world, I wanna get off >
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 16:26:50 (CDT)

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.com>
- Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 15:52:07 (CDT)

Yes, me again. Since we're on the topic of censorship and prejudice (now there's a nice combo; ranks right up there with--never mind), remind me some time to talk about a friend of mine who has had more than her share of prejudice in life because she has two things that people don't like. Man, whatta a screwing she has had in this life. But she handles it well. Remind me, remind me, remind me. (Or, better still, carve the request into the back of my hand. Ink washes off so easily.) Jim

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.com>
Ft. Collins, Colorado (yes, that's right; home of DAN SIMMONS) Look: If you don't know this bugger off, eh? - Wednesday, September 18, 1996 at 15:46:30 (CDT)

Oh, my. So much wonderful stuff. I really must get by more often. But, well, can't cos gotta do that grownup thing now and again. Anway, quickly...LOVE BLACK ADDER (I, II, III) and MR. BEAN and what I have seen of Rowan Atkinson's new series...um, THE THIN BLUE LINE (does that sound right?). He is to his generation of actors what Chaplin and Keaton were to theirs. And if anyone anytime wants to opine on the subject of Atkinson and BLACK ADDER/MR. BEAN/BLUE LINE/LION KING(yes, he was in that)/FOUR WEDDINGS AND A FUNERAL just drop me a line or two (or three at the e-mail address at the top of this here note of sorts). What else...? mumble, mumble, grumble... AH! DREAM CORRIDOR is available in my neck of the woods. In no less than THREE comic book stores. So, if anyone Out There can't find it and wants it let me know (again, at the e-mail address at the top of this note). What else? HE teaching in a public system? How long would *THAT* last? I suspect he would have sent one or two of the tots a-screaming to the nurse's station with certain symptoms of an impending nervous and/or mental breakdown. HE does better, I think, teaching in his own unique way, which is outside of the public ed system, in print, on the silver screen (and the widdle one-eyed wonder). Any thoughts? Oh, hey, Doc. Glad to see you're back. Jim

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Tuesday, September 17, 1996 at 13:34:04 (CDT)

MOIRA - yeah, you heard it right. Talked to the kid at lunch on the phone, and got the update. Regents have suspended without pay the 'teacher' in question until his termination (which awaits the outcome of the tenure grievance for precise terms of separation). The grievance is in step 2 of 3. Told him about your suggestion, but he says he thinks he'll get more satisfaction out of mine. At 9am this morning a class-action lawsuit was filed on behalf of the students, seeking re-assignment of copywrite rights and royalties, restitution of lost money, removal of grades given by the Prof from student records, and an unspecified monetary award for damages (emotional, career potential, etc.). He says he's already got more stories to write than lifetime to write 'em in, thanks to being part of a Non-Traditional Family, and he doesn't see any shortage of New material any time soon in the future.. So, **JASON** have at it, with our blessing.. I read your rant, and sighed.. I was kinda hoping this Divide-N-Conquer mentallity of bigotry was a Murican deviation.. Guess not. Years ago, when Black Militancy first came into fashion, my roommate fixed me up with a date for the Annual Black Madonna Ball (a Christmas-time fundraiser for scholarships to black females). Knowing I was heavily into Civil Rights activism, she figured it solved her boyfriends problem of a dateless roommate, and cleared the way for a fun time.. We found out how wrong that was when we arrived at the Ballroom, and I was told I would not be admitted BECAUSE I WAS A JEW. Well, I'm not jewish. Put up a hell of an arguement at the door, which attracted attention from people inside. Resulted in pushy-shovey heatedness between those who thought race should not be a factor in admittance, and those who thought race was the focus of the event. An absolute disaster as the Hall Management called the police and cancelled the event. It was my first experience with being accused of bigotry because I failed to recognize a color barrier. But not the last. Did I mention I was the only non-black in the entire episode? That I hadn't thought about the color of my roommate or date? That it never dawned on me there SHOULD be black only events? It seems a particularly ugly form of bigotry when those who know first hand what it is to be discriminated against, turn their legitimate anger into bigotry against others. Wish I had the answers.. Hell, I wish I knew the right questions to ask.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Jason
- Tuesday, September 17, 1996 at 11:48:00 (CDT)

Sue what a wonderful story! I�m wondering may I borrow it, i.e. use it for a story idea? It�s just perfect! (thanks a lot Moira I wanted to use it ;-) Had a day yesterday that renews my belief that cynicism is the natural reaction to the world around you. Warning! Warning! Rant approaching! It was a good day, I was downtown, picking up books for my class entitled Science, Faith and Science Fiction. (I'm really looking forward to this class.) Because I have a discount card I went down to the World's Biggest Bookstore, as it is called and bought most of the books required. Surprisingly they were out of stock for H.G. Wells, probably because of the movie. Just to digress a bit this course has a really interesting reading list, a list that includes, aside from the aforementioned H.G. Wells, The Left Hand of Darkness, By Ursula K LeGuin to Dostoevsky's Notes From the Underground and of course A Boy and His Dog, by some obscure writer named Harlan Ellison. I was on the bus heading home when the incident occurred, the bus stopped and a man and a woman got on. The woman ask him why didn't he stop at Warden, (Warden was the previous large street before the one we were at.) Strange question, but I didn't really have time to think about it, because the man then started up. Started up is an understatement, Krakatoa could take lessons from this man. He simply blew up. He demanded several times that the driver explain his job, when driver didn't answer him, he proceeded to tell the driver a simplified version of his job. He then complains about how long he had to wait, (fifteen minutes at most by the listed schedule though that wasn't mentioned) He then tells the driver, that he's lucky that we live in lawful country. The subtext being that if we lived in some lawless country, he'd probably hurt him to some degree. (the thought that if we lived in a lawless country, we wouldn't have a public transportation system never occurred to him) He then yelled out the fact that it cost him five bucks to get on this bus. What he did was this; this man was so incensed by this driver passing him by that he took a taxi to get ahead of this bus, so he could get on and yell at this driver! He then left for the back of the bus muttering a few obscenities that would make Andrew Dice Clay blush. This apparently wasn�t enough for him, because he came back and yelled some more. This is what got to me. I quote �I bet a white person would have been picked up.� I could not what this bigot had just said! By the way he was Jamaican, I didn�t mention it earlier because the colour of his skin, had no real importance to the story before, still doesn�t really but it clarifies his statement. This idiot believed that the bus driver deliberately passed him and his girlfriend/wife whatever she was at a major intersection because they were black. The bus driver wasn�t white, he was from the East Indies. Out of the thirty odd people in the bus at the time there were maybe five or six white people including myself and I�m half Japanese. The rest of the were of various other cultures including blacks, his statement was so absurd it was laughable, if it wasn�t so terrifying. I almost said something to him then, I�m still disappointed that I didn�t, but the fact is passing for a WASP probably would mean he would dismiss anything I had to say, because I was racist. That and the fact he was in a towering rage, not to mention he was quite a bit taller than me and I�m 6�2, led me to the conclusion that I would not intervene as long as he kept it to shouting at the driver. I was reading at the time the driver passed him by so I missed what had happened, the woman next to me explained the situation. There was another bus in front of us at the Warden stop, our bus pulled up behind them.. I remember this vaguely from looking up from my book to see where we are. What normally happens in this situation that the bus will open it�s doors and let people off at that point and people walk up to the bus and get on there, this also happens when there are to many cars in front of a bus that that he can�t reach the bus stop. This sort of occurrence is fairly common it happens to me on the average of once or twice a week, everyone who rides the bus regularly knows about this and those who don�t pick it up fairly quickly. The road I was on has three different bus routes, they disperse a little further up the line. The bus driver had opened the doors people got off and and on. The two who were at the bus stop he assumed were wait for the third bus. when the lights changed he drove off. It was a mistake on both sides, he should have gone up to the stop as protocols dictate, but they should have payed closer attention, if people were getting on the bus at the back there, they should have followed them. And he definitely shouldn�t have gone off like that in a public place where there were young children present. Who knows how they might all be affected by this. Hear that thumping noise? That�s Rosa Parks spinning in her grave. To the moron from the bus (I know he won�t read this, HE would go right over his head.) The world has enough racists out there without you inventing new ones. You�re just as bad as the rest of those bigots out there, seeing hoods and burning crosses everywhere, in fact you�re making their job easier. It wouldn�t be too hard convincing some gullible idiots that races should kept separate after that pitiful display. Grow up and get a life. That�s all I have to say. Jason

Moira Russell <mrussell@shadow.sjcsf.edu>
Did I hear what I just heard?, - Tuesday, September 17, 1996 at 10:56:08 (CDT)

Sue -- one thing your kid could do after that awful experience, to get a _little_ personal gain out of it, would be to write a story about it -- names suitably changed to protect the (not) innocent -- I mean, it's a hell of a story.....Dreadful, but funny. Funny, but dreadful....

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
someone move the party, and not tell me?? - Monday, September 16, 1996 at 19:57:08 (CDT)

So I'm talking to my 'baby', who is a sophomore in college, about Stuff.. And he tells me about the WORST teacher he's ever had.. And can I help him out on it.. A Prof in his Creative Writing class, english accent, spreads out books on a table at the back of the room - which he says he wrote, none of them have his name on them, evenly divided between Harlequin Romance, spy novels, and mysteries - complains for an hour about how crappy the 'Business' treats true artists such as himself, hands out the 'rules' for the class, sells a few of his books, and leaves. Never to be seen again. In the 12 pages of 'rules', the students are informed there is no point in trying to 'teach Art', they are to submit a published short story (major publisher or magazine) for an 'A', otherwise the entire class must collaborate on a novel and will all receive the same grade for their effort. Drop the novel off at the end of the semester in his office mailbox.. So everyone drops the class. My kid takes another section with a different Prof. Move ahead one week. The kid is leaving class (the new Creative Writing section), and the former Prof collars his new Prof., insisting that all the transfers from the now defunct section be 'failed'.. Kid is pissed. So he waits until the first Prof leaves, and offers to go to the Dean with the new Prof (still has the 12 pages of 'rules'). New Prof 'fills the kid in' - old Prof is tenured. Hands tied, nothing can be done as long as he continues to 'publish'. Then the kid has a brainstorm. Starts asking around until he finds someone who had the same Prof, and asks if they have a copy of the novel submitted. They do. Kid gets a copy, and heads over to the library - where they keep faculty publications in an archive. Sure Nuff. Last published novel (a Harlequin romance under another name) is one and the same as the novel submitted by the class (which earned them all a 'D'). I've just spent all day huddled with Deans and University Lawyers. They sure don't like it when parents want action taken on plaguerism (and insist THAT is grounds for revoking tenure). Nobody argued with the facts. They were well aquainted, it seems. They just didn't want the University 'dragged throught the mud'!?! Too bad my friend, the staff writer of a large local daily came along.. What a terrible person I am.. That poor man is going to lose his job.. Got me to thinking about discussions of teachers here on Webderland.. Kinda wishing it could be Teachers-of-Choice, not just Schools-of-Choice.. And makes me wonder about the power of the dollar.. Still mulling it all over.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

toni <pegarus@planet.net.au>
sydney, nsw australia - Sunday, September 15, 1996 at 22:43:23 (CDT)

having had the incredible experience of hearing harlan speak at a minicon in jan in sydney, i have been starved of news - was student had no money - THANKYOU for yr page - only recently got on the NET.... is it too late to send my best wishes to HE???? his words were pure gold my only "criticism" was of the organisers of the conference NO BLOODY ADVERTISING i only found out about it by accident and could only go for 1 day not the full 3 i suppose thats because i'm not part of a club and they didnt make me feel too welcome... BUT HE was MAGNIFICENT!!! Thank u again 4 this page - love from a new geekgrrl

Moira Russell
- Sunday, September 15, 1996 at 22:42:07 (CDT)

Hey, where's everybody go....?

Enoch Mirren
- Sunday, September 15, 1996 at 20:33:46 (CDT)

NEWS: HE reads Jules Vernes' "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea," to be released on cassette (and perhaps cd) Nov. 1/96......QUESTION: Has anyone ever heard of THE SAVOY BOOK, by Harlan Ellison, published in 1978?

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Saturday, September 14, 1996 at 17:54:15 (CDT)

"Susan" from MIND FIELDS was the story I was talking about a few days ago. But now I don't seem to have much to say about it. Like "The Other Eye of Polyphemus," it's another good reading-out-loud story. Short, beautiful, poetic, even moving if you're particularly sensitive to what it's all about at the time you read it. I like what Theodore Sturgeon wrote in his essay, "Future Writers in a Future World" (collected in a 1979 book, published by Barnes & Noble, ed. by Reginald Brentor, called THE CRAFT OF SCIENCE FICTION, which also includes and excellent essay, "With the Eyes of a Demon: Seeing the Fantastic as a Video Image," by HE): "To what things are readers---most readers, many readers---attuned? Why, to those things closest to the personal experience of each. And what are those things?... Love, and pain, and greed, and laughter, and hope, and above all loneliness." And I think HE definitely tapped into something deep along those lines when he wrote "Susan": "I'm crying for the loss of all the years I spent without you, the years before I met you, all the lost years of my life; and I'm crying that there are less years in front of me than all those lost years behind me." This is what HE had to say about the story: "My wife's name is Susan. Some idiot reviewers have said that this epigraphic fable is autobiographical. They are fools with lumps of coal for hearts. This is a valentine, pure and simple. To the sun in my sky. And a little lament for lost time. The first 'old man' thoughts I've ever had."

Doc
At the Controls of the Mesmer-A-Tron, - Saturday, September 14, 1996 at 01:08:05 (CDT)

**SUE** Liebchen; Schatzi; Daaaaahlink. "Restrictive?" HA! I was implying you were SANE, and PROGRESSIVE. Honestly, if you can't tell when I, of all people, am being sarcastic,...Fecklessly facetious. Yup, right here. I heartily condone active parenting, as opposed to those who prefer to do it by remote control, i.e. by bullying schools/government/Hollyweird. Anyone who takes the time to SPEND time with their kids, and aid (and/or abet) their development has my vote. Even if they're pushing the kids to "Be Like Us;" because they'll be there when the kid starts asking uncomfortable questions, like, "What's actually *wrong* with Jews/Blacks/Homosexuals/Hispanics/Target of Choice?" There may be some dandy fights, but at least the kid will grow, and who knows -- maybe even the parent(s). And isn't that a best-case scenario? I am not a parent, nor am I likely to be -- but, as a father, I think it would be crucial, as well as personally enriching, entertaining, etc., to have the opportunity to grow WITH my children. Perhaps not at the same rate or for the same reasons, but to be able to get through something, and for us to look at each other and say "We did this together": Wow! Maybe it's 'cause my father wasn't there, and/or my step-father was such a violent unpredictable mystery -- I dunno. Whatever approach a parent chooses, I think it's terribly, terribly important that we talk to the kids, so they know. We all want to be accepted, and part of that is being similar. BUT WE HAVE TO STRESS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "SIMILAR" AND "IDENTICAL!" I've said elsewhere in this forum, it's important to recognize and learn from our differences and our similarities, and seeing the similarities makes many things easier. But who wants Cookie-Cutter Culture? What good can come of Sausage Factory Education? Knowing what to expect makes us feel safe; but never taking any risks, in the face of expectations, leaves us stagnant. And, now, I'll hush, because I'm getting into my Rant, and I don't want to blow it all on the Comments Bored. Not that I don't LOVE the Bored, mind you, it's just that, er, fum-fuh,...I'm tired and sleepy! Yeah! Later, Gators! Love, Doc

keegan
- Friday, September 13, 1996 at 22:52:03 (CDT)

Moira, Sue--yeah, the "book geek" thing. See, my family was (and still is) much like the Simpsons (sans beer but laden with doughnuts). Anyway, the teevee screamed day and night and most of it was crap, but somehow, I learned it was crap (public school teachers, perhaps? Plain common sense, maybe?). I learned to read while it was going on. I learned to write while it was on, and I can practice while it's on. I very often find myself yodeling over the commercials; maybe pounding a little conga. I also turn it OFF frequently (one of the great freedoms of independant living). I love radio and one of my favorite aspects of visiting large urban areas like Boston, New York, and D.C is the variety of radio programming. My parents encouraged reading and never censored what I read (though we often clashed violently about it, especially in my adolescence), so despite the blare of the idiot box, I still managed a love for literature. Kids all thought I was a nut for choosing to read random and interesting articles in the World Book Encyclopedia (and early marriage purchase by my parents). It was nice to have reference books in the house. Now we've got the 'Net and my kid's shaking me down for a CD Rom. Oh, brave new world where I haven't a clue!

Moira Russell
- Friday, September 13, 1996 at 19:53:03 (CDT)

**SUE**When I was a little kid, living with very square parents (not mean, or all that restrictive: just square: father a writer, mother a classically-trained concert pianist) I didn't watch TV much except for Roadrunner cartoons (still my favorite), the Muppet show, read constantly, brought BOOKS to SCHOOL (big mistake) & didn't listen to rock'n'roll (OK, I remember when my best friend dragged me into her garage to hear the Bee Gees soundtrack to "Saturday Night Fever," but I thought it was stupid). Received this reaction from my peers: "You like to READ?" "You read ALL THE TIME?" "WHY do you like to read so much?" "You DON'T know the lyrics to that song? But EVERYBODY knows! You must be STUPID!" (Read once, somewhere, that HE sometimes writes characters with the names of those who tormented him as a child. Needless to say, the characters come to unsavory ends.) A lot of the time the atmosphere of public schools, from the kid's-eye view, is that of the lowest common denominator: "Be exactly like us, or...." This message comes from the meaner kids _&_ most of the teachers.... Needless to say strong-willed little kids (like I was) will find some way to resist such pressure (& it sounds like your kids did the same). Maybe part of it was the suburb I grew up in: my father was castigated for not keeping his lawn perfectly green & clipped, like All The Other Neighbors Did....While on the topic of kid's programming & merchandising, what about that TV "channel" that was supposed to give educational programming free to public schools -- complete with commercials for the company's product that was backing it?

keegan
- Friday, September 13, 1996 at 19:40:16 (CDT)

We watch tv with our kids (except for Barney, which is a private kid ritual. I sometimes listen to the songs for professional reasons....really. I hate that synthesizer sound they use). Sometimes our kids see stuff like sex and violence on tv, and they ask questions (they don't see prolonged doses but occasionally an ass or an uzzi shows up in routine surfing). We answer them honestly. in language they can handle. If they *insist* on watching something we think is crap, we criticize the material MST3K style. When commercials come on, we point out what crap most of the merchandise is. Likewise, if we something interesting and enriching, we check it out and marvel at it. We also read alot of books and where the heck would todays modern mom be without the magic of Disney videos? I can't wait for Toy Story! When my son asked for the Animated Story book CD Rom, we pointed out that we have no CD Rom player. Now he says he wants a CD Rom for Christmas. It was only a little white fib to tell him that I wasn't sure "Santa" could afford such a high-ticket item (we play with the metaphorical Santa, but never conciously hide the truth when discussing him. The kids talk about Santa like he's concrete, but *we* talk about him as an alter-ego). Anyway....then there's the times when we just have to say "No. We will not buy you a Super Intergalactic Missile Launcher with High-Tech Nuclear Grenades," or some such...you know what I'm saying.

Sue Luesse <same>
wait a minute, didja imply... Nawwww... - Friday, September 13, 1996 at 16:50:38 (CDT)

Just dawned on me that DOC may have thought we were restrictive in our parenting. Not so. We never told our kids "No" - we did always outlined the options/consequences, and let them decide (and NEVER bailed them out of a consequence - just repeated the process with the new 'situtation'). We were pretty much regarded as irresponsible parents by other adults 'Who Knew Better'as a result. The issue of TV never came up until the oldest went to K-Garten - and was told by other kids she was 'abused' because she didn't watch TV (at least not the 'cool' shows), and she was 'weird' because she was the only kid her age reading books.. So our kids went on a TV binge (during which GI Joe reared his macho head). It lasted until the re-run season kicked in, and they were happy that they'd 'seen all of it' and could tell the other kids that, and went back to reading, music, making art, sports, hanging with friends, and stuff they liked better. I'm happy to say that the 'experiment' was a success. Kids are all doing very well, on their own, and we're still a close family. Am I tooting my own horn here?? So whatcha gonna do about it??... (;-) ... The reason I even mention it, is that all too often complex issues are trivialized into 'sides' (only two options), and when someone takes out a third option, they are put into the 'other side' by both sides.. Example - when my first child decided to attend public school, and I went to the parochial school to make the transfer, I was told "Good Riddance, Libetine Trash" (or words to that affect) by the Principal.. And when I went to the public school to complete the transfer, I was told "Oh no, more conservative losers" (or words to that affect)...Hhhmmm... The message was clear - we were being labelled and handed off to the 'other side', by both sides.. Fortunately, kids got along just fine - in both schools.. And they wonder why we read HE... Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Friday, September 13, 1996 at 13:17:39 (CDT)

Thought it fair to drop a note to *DOC*, and say I do watch videos. I wait to hear what people say about TV shows, and movies. If they HAVE to tell me what it made them think about, I get the video. Sort of a cheapskates cull of the market.. I have almost a library of Dr. Who and Red Dwarf (fav's sent by a buddy in England - who demands tapes of American Computer Shows in return, like CNet). Guess being 'cutting edge' just isn't worth swimming upstream through the deluge to me. And from most of what I see and read, I'm not sure I want to 'join' the 20th Century. Does being out of step with society put one a step behind or a step ahead? Never been clear on that.... (;-) ... Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Friday, September 13, 1996 at 07:13:01 (CDT)

brief comment cuz i just woke up. *jason* and *bill* -- yes, it's from "susan." *doc* -- you probably sent that email to my *other* address which i don't use very often and haven't checked since i posted that message. my fault; i should have put in my regular address. i wasn't ingoring you. that's it for now. i need a cup of coffee and some lovin'. later.

Doc
Oh, guess!, - Friday, September 13, 1996 at 00:58:51 (CDT)

DEAR Friends,...I guess I shouldn't complain, but I do alotta things I shouldn't (and good taste, and the Statute of Limitations, prevent me from listing them here). So-called children's programming in the United Snakes has been teetering on the wrong side of wretchedity (love me, love my syntax) for a looooooong time. Like, since teevee started broadcasting for kids. Let us slip way back into Yesteryear, and have a look at Howdy-Doody; even to an extent Der Mouse Klub. Very commercial stuff, hawking Howdy dolls, mouse-eared hats, and coonskin caps. In fact, thinking about the source of coonskin caps makes the mouse-ear hats rather ghoulish, in a Gahan Wilson sort of way. But I digress. **SUE** Did I hear 'parents,' teaching,' and 'values' all come outta you in the same sentence? Please -- gather your hoops and join us in the 20th century! That's what schools, guvmint, and teevee are FOR! Cap'n Kangaroo and Andy's Gang might have been rare exceptions, in national broadcast. Otherwise, you have to sort of resort to local programming, which is going the way the archeoptryx. As a kid in western Oklahoma, I loved watching Foreman Scotty, and his pals at the Bar-4 Ranch. They did the usual round of cartoons (Popeye, to the Flintstones [which had JUST gone into syndication], to Bugs and Daffy, with occasional wild cards, like Secret Squirrel, or Crusader Rabbit), and Laurel and Hardy reruns, but they also had a live kid audience, and on-going adventures, about friendship, duty, responsibility, courage, and like that. Sure, they had sponsors, but the only money-shaking Foreman Scotty did that I recall was: send 'em a dollar for Muscular Distrophy, and they'd send you a Secret Decoder Wheel, which looked like a disappointingly-cheap paper/card doo-dad to grown-ups, but that was only a disguise, so villains wouldn't try to get their miscreational claws on it. I fear that REAL kid programming, the good stuff, is behind us, like linolium, and Late Night Creature Features w/ hosts. You know, guys like Zacherley, and Vampira, both of whom I missed; and Count Gregor (in OKC), and the Phantom of the Opry (the Nashville Network), and GHOULARDI, and Elvira. Much as I love video for making handy and available so many nifty flicks, I still think it might be robbing us of our culture. 'Cause all video really is is television that'll WAIT for you. Still a useful tool and entertainment device though. Awhile back, I discovered a few beloved shows from my childhood, rented them in a fog of Golden Nostalgia -- and was properly horrified. Old "Archie" cartoons, "Lidsville," mostly all embarassing -- I liked that stuff? The other side of this humbling educational coin was that I did find a few things that held up rather well, like "The Inspector." "Pink Panther" spin-off, voices by mostly Pat Harrington. Of course, those were theatrically released before going to teevee. Anyone else discover shows you used to like that make you shrink now? Any fond reminiscences? **PHILLIP** Listen, man, I was KIDDING in that e-mail, the Freudian Slippage thing, honest -- you aren't *actively* ignoring me, are you? Yeesh, what a grouch,...Well, in a consiliatory sort of way, I give you this -- the name of the show was "The Dark Room," and it was hosted by James Coburn. **STEVE** I'm not sure whether that was actually Amurrican cultcher creeping into the show, or just that some of Los Quesos Grandes at the BBC were just in a snit that Doctor Who was a bigger hit than their equally-entertaining and much more expensive show, "Tripods." "They prefer that cheap rot? Well, let them have it!" seems to have been the "thinking", and if people were gonna watch it anyway, why struggle for *top* quality. The good is the enemy of the best in any country, it appears; and the enema of the rest of us. Anybody out there eer see "Tripods?" Neat show -- imagine a futurized follow-up to _War of the Worlds_ where the Martians won. Two seasons, faithful to the original books, and well worth your time. Out on video, as well as available to PBS, although I don't know how exorbitant it is for PBS -- a season (A season!) of Doctor Who is something astronomical, like $8,000!!! With that said, I think I'd better go lie down, with cool, damp cloths on my brow. Cheers, all. Love, Doc

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
- Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 23:19:54 (CDT)

Phillip, were you referring to the story "Susan"? It appeared in the Jack Yerka collection, Mind Fields, and also, I believe in the December 1993 issue of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction. It's a story which, if I'm not mistaken, HE said was written as a valentine (or maybe just love letter) to his wife. All I can say is, sitting in the middle of the crowded library reading room, I cried when I read the line you quoted, the story's final sentence.. -- Billy D.

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 21:30:49 (CDT)

"They say that heaven is like TV: just a perfect little world that doesn't really need you." -- Laurie Anderson, "Strange Angels."-----In an earlier message, *keegan* mentioned the drama series "I'll Fly Away." I think I watched just about every episode. At times it did drag a bit, but like HE, it was always worth looking out for. I was happy to see it continued, briefly, on PBS after NBC said to hell with it. Those final episodes were very moving... Does anyone remember that Twilight Zone-like series, back in the early 80's, I think, called "The Red Room"? It had some of the coolest stuff I'd seen on tv (at least that's what I thought during my young and impressionable days). There was on episdoe were these little toy soldiers come to life, might have been based on a Stephen King story. I think a teleplay based on one of HE's short stories was written for the show ("Killing Berstein"?), but it was cancelled after something like 3 shows and HE's teleplay never made it to air. Another show I remember from my more impressionable days: "Crime Story." It was on for two seasons (again, in the early 80's). During the first season it was better than anything else on televsion (or so I though at the time) and during the second season the writing went right down the toilet and the show died. Denis Ferino was the main good guy on the show. And maybe even Gary Sinise... I've been reading HE's "City on the Edge of Forever." I didn't think it'd be that interesting, but it is. Do any of you so-called HE readers know what story I was talking about earlier? Come on, think: a short, beautifully poetic story by HE, published just a year or so ago. May have been collected in a "year's best fantasy and horror" anthology, something like that.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 19:39:48 (CDT)

Since I don't watch TV to spit at, I was gonna lurk-N-learn.. But you pushed a button with me STEVE.. Merchandising aimed at children.. This disgusting sell-out began when my kids were still young, and heavily influenced our TV viewing habits. I have a real problem with children being a 'market', and seduced into seeing themselves as 'consumers' before they know what either of those two words mean. We first noticed it when the boys asked why GI Joe Dolls were on the show every Saturday morning instead of the 'cool' weapons.... /:-( .... After a discussion of the realities of war, and a visit to the local Holocaust Museum, we stopped watching GI Joe. But it got worse at time went on. We became harder pressed as a parent NOT to buy common childrens items without endorsements of some kind, or for that matter, adult clothing for ourselves that did not 'lend status' by making us walking billboards. My objection? My 'status' as a person has NOTHING to do with shelling out bucks as a consumer. I strongly oppose labels of any type applied to people - and it doesn't get much more obvious than Buying Instant Status, and proudly wearing the physical label of the Highest Status you can afford. And they start it with kids, who cannot possibly understand that objection, so they'll learn to be consumers before they can learn to be people - which, IMHO, usurps the function of parents as the primary teachers of values to their children. We fought back by eliminating TV, and spending incredible amounts of time to locate childrens items of quality - without labels. And let me tell you, it wasn't easy.. I was a real Bitch of a Mom - until they got old enough to see the results of economic labelling in their social lives.. And that was waaay back, before this trend really 'caught on'. I still rip off, or blot out lablels that identify the manufacturer of products when they are used. Very time consuming.. But it's the principle.. Sorry to rant.. Those buttons can be like Pandora's Box sometimes..(;-) Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Still drifting, middle of nowhere - Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 15:55:25 (CDT)

*Doc*, you took the words right out of my mouth about the Doctor. It would have been better, perhaps, if I'd stated that I was beginning to get the feeling that the American trends towards horrid gack in 'children's' programming, were beginning to show their heads in Doctor Who: sanitized music, simpler plots, more political corrctness, and whatnot. I hate the current state of TV for kids, and I'm glad I've done most of my growing up already. A good metaphor for what is being done to ruin kids TV (besides Barney and the Stupid F*cking Power Morons) can be seen in what happened to the Galaxy Rangers TV show. Does anyone remember this? Premise: a group of 'young' sci-fi writers were gathered together to create this TV show for kids, and it was decided that the 'hook' would be a mixture between cowboy westerns, space opera, and cyberpunk. The writers came up with some truly ingenious stuff, and a lot of it shows up in the finished product, despite the 'creative input' smitten upon the show by the executives. What was this input? Basically, what the execs wanted was 1) a cute, cuddly, inherently stupid race of aliens to be prominent in the stories, to attract teh attention of our mindless youth, 2) some of the truly adult themes and motifs had to be watered down (but the writers displayed amazing subtlety in sneaking a whopping lot of stuff past the producers), and 3) the inclusion of a number of 'fluff' episodes with no discernable plot to appease the kids who could care less about intellectual content of the story (sort of like a lot of Tribble stories). But the show was still magnificent despite those dreadful watering-downs, and it only died because the push to include tie-in merchandise was unsuccessful. Gotta dash, all. Later.

Phillip <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
Name That Tune, - Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 14:09:18 (CDT)

Harlan wrote: "And out in the roiling ocean of misty darkness, they could both hear the sound of roving, demented nightmares whose voices were now, they understood, less filled with rage than with despair." Now that might not *seem* like poetry, taken out of context like that; if you'd read the rest of the story that came before it, you'd see how beautiful it really is. It's not very often I use words like "poetry" and "beautiful" to describe something HE has written. I'll have more to say once someone can tell me what story I'm talking about. Right now I'll think I'll read it again.

Doc
The Verge of a Berzerker Frenzy, - Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 11:51:27 (CDT)

Steve, after thirty years or so, it gets kind of hard to keep the writing fresh, to say nothing of hi-jinx with the Beeb. Regardless of the debatable level of writing quality, "Doctor Who", as a program initially devised for the education, edification, and entertainment of children (despite its reaching a much wider audience [yes, I'm wider than a child]), still made for higher quality programming than what kids are assaulted with in the name of "politically-correct nuturing," in this country anyway. "Barney?" (not our beloved Danelke, I mean that wretched purple dinosaur) "The Power Rangers?" Ecch! Here comes another topic, subsection to teevee: what currently constitutes quality children's programming, and how does it differ from what we had When We Was Their Age? And Happy Imminent Birthday, Steve-a-rino. **Moira** Just what do you know (he pauses to light one cigarette off of another) Just what do you know about the X-files, creatures, and kidnapping? If it would be more convenient, we could send some people to interview you personally,...Wow. That was creepy. I was kidding, and I scared *myself!* Nobody liked "The Witchsmeller Pursuivant," or "The Queen of Spain's Beard?" Love, Doc

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
End of Nowhere, NY - Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 10:14:37 (CDT)

*DOC* I must agree, McCoy was certainly an apt Doctor, a talented man indeed; I just didn't like his incarnation because the writing was so horribly weak, and to be blunt, condescending. I liked davidson only after he left, too. I came in with Tom, tho, and so I suppose that's why the aura of mystery about Gallifrey and the like never struck me. My fave years were Tom's early and middle ones. *Moira* The Dr Johnson episode of BlackAdder has my fave line from season III. Edmund: "Dr. Johnson, I love you and I want to have your babies." Oh, and I should mention that I for one prefer brunettes to blondes -- married a brunette, only dated brunettes. Maybe it's because I've got blond hair and green eyes.... But I also agree that Jill Hennessey is a great actress; I love her work on L and O. *ALL* This is one happy hornbill talking to you. My birthday (29th) is next week, and as an early present my wife grabbed me a copy of _The Essential Ellison_, which is apparently now back in print. 1000 pages of bliss to look forward to. :)

Moira Russell
- Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 02:50:53 (CDT)

Hey **DOC** -- wild suggestion which probably no one will like, but -- know the lead in "Mefisto" is supposed to be blonde, but what about Jill Hennessey ("Claire Kincaid" on _Law & Order_ until this season)? She has a really intense quality that manages to be smart & sexy at the same time, & I think she & Jackson would complement each other well in the parts -- she's a bit more "book-smart" & "slick," & he has (wonderful) rough edges. (But she ain't blonde. Just _ask_ us brunette ladies about typecasting.....sigh.) -- If creatures from the _X-Files_ kidnapped my mother & asked me what my favorite Ellison tale was it woudprobably be "Mefisto" -- but it's sooooo hard to pick -- the 1st time I read it, I didn't like it at all. But then realized quite against my conscious control large _shards_ of it had lodged in my brain & I couldn't get the story out of my mind. Now it seems to me to be one of the most _genuine_ stories of redemption I've ever read -- a happy ending, but Lord, was it paid for. -- Anyone else have this kind of experience w/the book? (Just curious....)

Doc
Funkytown, - Thursday, September 12, 1996 at 00:33:06 (CDT)

**KEEGAN** Mon Cher! There are few more-satisfying feelings for a teacher than that experience of discovering you effected your students, especially if it's the effect you intended. From a mug who worked in adolescent-centered treatment facilitites, as well as doing penance as a substitute teacher, CONGRATULATIONS! **MOIRA** Welcome back, keed! You're just a full-time gal, ain'tcha? As for gollywogging Jason for his suggestion of Samuel L. Jackson, well, these things happen (I am winking at our good friend in The North). For the female lead, I not-too-humbly remind interested parties of the warm cheers I got for my suggestion of Glen(n) Close. She has age, toughness, and the aura of courtroom dignity which would temper nicely with the shady affair in her past. And no, I don't mean "shady" as an ethnic slur. **PHILLIP** that's BLACKADDER. You may be particularly interested in the episode to which Moira refers, in which Baldric turns into an Alsation(sp?). They are all out on video, and I command you to find them, even BlackAdder's Christmas Carol. Mr. Ebeneezer Blackadder, the nicest man in all England. Really. Huh! Ahem. **STEVE** Yeah, some of the Davisons were weird, but that trend started with Tom Baker. Colin Baker was a bit irritating, but I am forced to defend Sylvester McCoy -- his performance was pretty right-on, even if some of the material was somewhat less than we'd come to expect. I think their mistakes were explaining too much about the Doctor's background (and robbing the character of his mystery), and making his "interventions" more deliberate. But that started back with Pertwee. It was a frequent debate whether the original Doctor would help at all -- they arrived, they got seperated, adventures happened, and most of the motivation was to get everyone back to the TARDIS alive, disaster nipping at their heels (particularly Pat Troughton's incarnation), so they could leave; and Hartnell *might* have left without 'em! The show grew; McCoy's style was just a little different, they each have a different flavor about them. Hell, it was Davison's last story before I really started to appreciate his performance; contrariwise, it took almost that long for his character to jell. I think having a script by Bob Holmes, one of the series' very best writers, helped considerably. Incidentally, it was Holmes's last story, too: he died shortly after it aired. Wait, I am officially mistaken, he wrote one of the Colin Baker novelizations, "The Two Doctors," I beleive. But, I think his style would have worked very well with McCoy's interpretation. Well -- this has gone far enough, for now, at least. I need my rest. Fighting hooligans from the insurance companies really takes it outta ya. OH! Anyone know where I can get a hardcover copy of Dangerous Visions, in good shape? G'night, sweet dreams, beware the Thanatos Mouth (which I've surely embarassed myself by misspelling). Love, Doc

Moira Russell
- Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 21:29:10 (CDT)

Hey guys -- just spent 10 min. typing out a thoughtful, provocative, witty, Comment. Then (long story: short version) my computer froze and ate it. Will try to recap. 1) I drop in and out because I work full-time go to school full-time and just recovered from a nasty sinus infection (no details wanted/needed, trust me). Find the quality of conversation on this Board intelligent & inspiring even if I only see the light about every 3-4 weeks. 2) **KEEGAN** and **DOC**: right on about imagination & inspiration in teaching -- when I taught I always remembered Isak Dinesen's saying "The foremost duty of a teacher is not to instruct but to inspire" (although I must add I don't think she was saying instruction doesn't _count_ -- but that the instruction _must_ be inspiring. 3) **JASON** -- yes, I gueneflect to you after the Jackson pick -- who for the female lead? NOT Meg Ryan is all I ask. -- Michelle Pfeiffer? Laura Linney? Hmmm?

Phillip Cairns <phillip@cs.mun.ca>
- Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 21:16:42 (CDT)

Anybody see the season finale of Mad About You? I'll tell ya, I'm a sucker for these things. Tears were shed. (Okay, sue me.) And what's this show I've been hearing about? Something British? Black Something Or Other? Never heard of it. I live in a world without cable: The Two-Channel Universe. (Hey, that sound like a potential HE short story.)

Moira Russell
- Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 20:42:48 (CDT)

Just got back to this Board and am catching up -- but I must say, Blackadder Fan(atics) unite! My favorite of the series is (I think) in III where Blackadder "assists" Dr. Johnson with his famous Dictionary -- glad to see there are others out there who enjoy! (Usually I get this reaction when trying to introduce this addiction as topic of conversation: "Blackwhat?"

keegan
- Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 15:35:12 (CDT)

Hey, Doc! Glad you're alive. Sorry about the car, though. Been there; it's a major drag. You're right about teaching: You gotta LOVE the material. I think the fact that I'm actually a gigging musician goes a long way to convince kids that I'm for real. They were so impressed with the fact that I was giving a concert in Elmira--you'd have thought it was the BIG APPLE in their minds (they're rural kids and don't get out much apparently). The point is, I don't just teach it, I *do* it because I love it too much not to. And yes, vitamins for the *imagination*. I'm always working on opening up their minds. That's probably a bigger part of my mission than getting them to sing. BTW, I heard that yesterday, for the first time in at least five years, the fourth grade voted music as their favorite subject (poll taken as part of a unit about voting). Their classroom teacher told me that she thought this spoke well of what I'm up to. This is only my second year at this school, and already there's some evidence that I'm helping kids discover and love music. As a teacher, it doesn't get much better than that!

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 09:33:05 (CDT)

*Jason* My fave series of BlackAdder is II, but III and IV are wonderful as well (the only ep from I that I liked was the one where Edmund was named Archbishop or some such). In general, Rowan is my favorite comic actor, and has been for some time now; I joined a Disney-oriented club on the Net in which each person is known by the name of a Disney character, and I grabbed Zazu because Rowan did the voice. (Got lucky there; I grabbed the name before the movie came out and most people had no idea what the character was, and beat out a good number of people who started asking after the name once the film hit the theaters. But I digress....) To continue (actually, to conclude), I should also mention that I used to love the Dr Who show, basically until they started getting weird in the Peter Davidson years, and I couldn't tolerate either Colin Baker or Sylvester McCoy -- by McCoy the show had become a charicature of itself, and the magic was gone. I wish that the Sci-Fi channel had kept Dr Who instead of the mounds of tripe they now run, but I wish they could have found a more amenable time slot for the poor show, maybe showing the entirety of a four- or six-part episode on a Saturday afternoon or some such. Oh, well, time to get back to work.

Doc
Trying to rise from the dud (not a typo) - Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 03:34:08 (CDT)

Gad, it feels like I've been away for years. Yes, we are a passionate people -- like, what sort of kids would one expect to find at Webderland? I'm in a funk. A *big* funk. (forgive the pun) A steamer funk. The estimable estimators have rendered the Dratmobile "total loss"; I had to pay a $150 deposit for the rental car (read as "super-deluxe go-cart") the insurance gremlins got me; in the last two days, my savings of several months have been wrested from me; I'm still working with troglodytes and am getting the runaround over whether I can have a $0.25/hr. raise; I'm getting another sty; many woes, too numerous and pathetic to mention -- I expect news at any moment that whirlwinds have vanished all my camels and sheep, and that my sons have been ravished and done-to-death by foreign enemies (look in a bible, for pity's sake!). At least the headaches are diminishing. Some. Well *KEEGAN* the ol' Doctor is alive. I don't seem to recall any P.S. Arts (per se) teachers that lit my fire, but I do have a couple favorites: Mrs. Dorothy Lawson, my English teacher, Sr. year, made the language come alive as something I could have a capable hand in; dead or alive, God bless that woman. And Frank Lewis, my U.S. History teacher in college -- you wanna light fires, Deary? Love your damned subject. I mean, LOVE it. Lewis loved History, I never *had* to take notes in that class. I showed one day, having forgotten we had a test, hadn't studied -- made a B+, just on what I remembered from his lectures. He was fascinating. Second, I suggest that you dare your students to have an open mind, dare them to really listen. Yes, "vitamins for the mind" is good; "vitamins for the *imagination* is better. Hear music, visualize -- better than dope (and, child, I KNOW whereof I squeak, on that). Tell them "Close your eyes, and make pictures," tell them it's Siefried's funeral music, and play it. Watch the kiddies come unglued. Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet" -- WOW! Have they seen "Fantasia?" I don't care for a couple of the arrangements (The Fugue needs to be played on a pipe organ), but that'll give 'em some idea of what music can do to their heads. Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman, Coleman Hawkins, Fats Waller, all them guys,...*TEEVEE* oh, that we should be confronted by this tool of Satan on an Ellison board,...really, I don't get to watch much, these days. 3rd Rock is a riot, X-Files is good, but best if you follow it; haven't been able to get too involved emotionally with DS9 or ST:VeeJer; maybe a writing problem, having a tough time giving a hoot about the characters. Sliders is a fun premise, nicely structured, possibly one of the most abominably-written shows on telly. They have the opportunities (and the aforementioned structure) to do swell things, like were done in the old Doctor Who series (a long-time favorite), particularly early on, but they just miss the boat. Y'know, last time I looked, Ellison was/is a Doctor Who enthusiast -- wrote an intro to the series of novelizations (who put those beastly things out,...?). Anyhoo, *Jason*, Black Adder is also one of my very favorites, all out on video. I have a tough time choosing between II and III. As a kid, I loved Red Skelton's show. Anyone out there remeber the series "The Paper Chase?" Wonderful show, ergo short-lived. And Red Dwarf is riotous -- can anyone get me the lyrics to the theme? I hum the dratted thing at work ALL NIGHT, and can't get it outta my head!!! *Sue* see you in e-mail, soon. Must go,...systems shutting down,...3:30 in the ayem,...maybe I can sleep, finally? Smooches all, good to be back. OH! Who asked about Demon With A Glass Hand? Yes, Dear Friend, several of the original Outer Limits episodes are out on video, and you are in luck! Check with your retailer, look in the catalogue under "Outer Limits." They got "Zanti Misfits," too! Later -- Love, Doc

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Ache City, - Wednesday, September 11, 1996 at 00:09:15 (CDT)

Anybody out there know if HE's "Demon with a Glass Hand" is available for purchase on video? Thanks. -- Billy D.

Phillip
- Tuesday, September 10, 1996 at 22:21:55 (CDT)

That's should have been "snuggled right up *to* me," not "up me."

Phillip <z67psc@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>
- Tuesday, September 10, 1996 at 22:15:11 (CDT)

In the same vein as what Daevid just said, HE's HORNBOOK has done me a lot of good, more so than most of his fiction... with the exception of "The Other Eye of Polyphemus" from SHATTERDAY. On those occasional bad days (or weeks or months), after some unpleasant experience which has left my confidence a little shakey (yeah, I get hit with it sometimes just like the rest of us stuck in this human skin), I find myself laying in bed and cracking open my big ESSENTIAL ELLISON and reading out loud, "The Other Eye of Polypemus." My voice becomes calm and passionate and, overall, comforting. I say "my voice," but I sort of borrow it from Harlan. And it works. Might not ease what's ailing me, but it helps me sleep. I haven't read that story for a long time, and I could probably use a good dose of it, now that I think about it. I'd recommend it to everybody, especially at those moments when you're not feeling so strong (like I said, everybody feels that way sometimes). I once read that story out loud to someone who was snuggled right up me, really soft, at a time when I didn't have the shakes at all. You should try reading it out loud sometime, and see what happens to your voice........ Note: "The Other Eye of Polyphemus" can be found in SHATTERDAY, THE ESSENTIAL ELLISON and DREAMS WITH SHARP TEETH, all available through the HERC. G'Night.

Jason
- Tuesday, September 10, 1996 at 21:53:17 (CDT)

Steve, thank you for bringing up Black Adder, I'm always afraid to bring it up because, someone always seems to dismiss aa one of those 'British' comedies or they've never heard of it, and I have to explain it in tedious detail. Which series is your favourite by the way? Never could get into Mr. Bean though. I've started watching Caroline, since it's moved to Tuesdays and I'm enjoying it. Well it's time for Ramblings of a Madman: Tomorrow (Wednesday) Star trek Voyager will have the Star Trek anniversary special featuring guest appearances by Sulu and Yeoman (now commander) Rand. The plot does not involve time travel, which is nice for a change, unfortunately this pretty much hamstrings what can be done. (Sulu and Rand appear in Tuvok memory flashbacks. In the 'present' Janeway praises Kirk and Sulu's generation, while slyly mentioning that they'd be booted out of Starfleet. There is in my opinion only one line that really stands out. Synapse breakdowns has caused Janeway (present by virtue of of a mind-meld) to be seen by the characters in Tuvok's memory who react to her presence, (I think what happens is that it becomes less like a memory and more like a dream, though it still doesn't make sense to me.) Anyway circumstances require Janeway get a uniform circa Star Trek 6, to do this Tuvok nerve pinches Rand, Janeway says we could have just asked her, and Tuvok replies, "Asking for a female officer's clothing might lead to misunderstanding." Final opinion don't bother unless you watch Voyager regularly or a big fan of Star Trek 6 the Undiscovered Country. Personally I'm looking forward to the DS9 Star Trek anniversary episode, tentatively titled Trails and Tribble-ations, where the same technology used in Forrest Gump is supposed to bring back Kirk and Spock as they looked in the original series. That's all for now, I'll be back probably tommorow with my review of the Burning Zone.

Daevid MacKenzie, UltimaJock(tm) <none currently>
Nordheim, WI UNITED STEAKS OF AMERIKA - Tuesday, September 10, 1996 at 21:14:01 (CDT)

Harlan's non-fiction material has been getting me through more tough nights of relative insanity than I care to recall. The man is truth with a bazooka attached. 'nuff said.

Sue Luesse
- Tuesday, September 10, 1996 at 14:10:35 (CDT)

Jason, does that mean you *didn't* mean "heavy sarcsam" with reference to the first line?? I thought I had it straight, and was taking no offense (kinda smiled with affection, in fact) - but now I'm confused... (;-)~ Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Tuesday, September 10, 1996 at 10:44:28 (CDT)

TV? Well, lessee here. First I should say that I have never enjoyed Voyager, I liked DS9 for its first 2.2 seasons (after which the writing has been so bad that it's been intolerable), I loved TNG after Wesley left, and I've never been able to really get into the old ST. I should mention quickly that my favorite TV episode of perhaps all time was "Necessary Evils" from DS9's second season. Moving on: always hated Northern Exposure and Picket Fences; currently watch TLC and Discovery a lot (especially Connections, my favorite show), Law and Order, sporting events, BlackAdder when I can find it (and Python too), and Caroline in the City (Richard and Annie kill me), but can't tolerate any other sitcom except on occasion, and ER has gotten way too soapy for my gut. I watch DS9 when I have the time -- it's only bloody shown at midnight locally, on Saturday night/Sunday morning. I loved the first five seasons of MST3K, but the most recent two have been dreadful; I have wary feelings towards the show now that Trace has left, but when Sci-Fi begins showing MST in February, I think the show will be revitalized. BTW, that will bring the number of shows I watch on Sci-Fi to two (the other being the Buzz, so I can see if Harlan's gonna say something). Last note: does anyone remember that show on Sci-Fi that used to follow Buzz, called "Mysteries from beyond the other dominion" and was hosted by this space cadet named Dr. Franklin Rheul? My friends and I watched that show, to laugh at how Frank said that everything was caused by aliens' meddling. Anyone know why the show vanished without explanation? Fave quote from the show: Frank used to urge people to carry a camera everywhere they went so that if they saw a UFO they could "whip it out and start shooting!"

Jason
- Monday, September 09, 1996 at 23:59:27 (CDT)

Barney I found the night of thanks, but no thanks. Funny stuff, right up there with Peter David for the funny book set. Amazing what happens when he actually writes the book. Preety much said what I watch. Although I do watch almost every premier for the new fall season, to make judgements, I'll pass along what I think for in future posts, If I was an arrogant bastard I'd call it Jason's Watching, or the New Glass Teat, but I'm not an arrogant bastard (I think) and so I'll use a title that has served me well for several subjects. Stay tuned loyal posters for The Ramblings of a Madman. Jason

keegan
- Monday, September 09, 1996 at 21:24:13 (CDT)

Phillip-Yes, Northern Exposure was a great favorite. We used to take the teevee out under the stars and watch it by the fire pit under starlight. Gives rather a new meaning to the Native-American expression "Central Fire". And as for old vs. new Trek--I watch both and have seen many episodes of TNG and DS9 but mostly as a social thing (many of my friends, including my husband are "into" Trek). But I have to say that I will almost always choose the old over the new, even though I've seen every episode of classic Trek at least ten times. THAT is one of my favorite series of all-time. Second (in my mind) only to The Twilight Zone. When we were kids, we used to play Trek on the playground. I always got to be Uhura, being the only girl geeky enough to watch Trek in my 2nd grade. Other girls were fixing up Barbie and Ken for weekends in the Malibu beach-house and I was communicating with alien civilizations (occasionally chasing their emmisaries across the snow-covered surface of their planet). Go figure. Anyway...thanks for indulging my reverie. I'll grow up now.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. - Monday, September 09, 1996 at 20:45:16 (CDT)

Geez. You mean to talk on Harlan's BB I've got to talk about television. Couldn't we talk about our worst zits or what a boil feels like. OK, guilty pleasures. Red Dwarf. Avengers episodes with Mrs. Peel. Original Outer Limits. Cnn when my favorite anchor is on and watching people watch tapes of things that I know will amaze them. Here is an interesting Ellison related anecdote. One day after finishing re-reading "City..." Philly 57 is having there TREK fest and they show city in prime time opposite the re-airing of the season premiere of Star Trek:Voyager. The one episode they really blew the budget on. Space battles,crowd shots,exterior shots,computer animation, etc. I start watching them concurrently with my 9 year old daughter Kyla in the room. She is not a Trek enthusiast and has no vested interest in "classic" Trek. I am neither a Voyager basher or classic Trek booster and am in no particular hurry to see the new ones. We watched about 70 percent of each of the shows first 20 minutes (the commercial breaks didn't sync up so this was possible) and after 20 minutes I asked Kyla which she would rather watch and with no hesitation on her part she said to go back to the story with the "old ones". Even after watering it down, that story grabs people quicker then special effects can. You can fool me (I'm predisposed Ellison-wise) but you can't fool a 9 year old with a remote in her hands and the desire to be instantly entertained. When she saw Harlan's name come up after Pevney's at the end you could have knocked her over with a feather. Rick, if you read this and feel like it feel free to forward it to Harlan. I think he'd get a kick out of it. Later, Barney

Phillip
- Monday, September 09, 1996 at 20:17:18 (CDT)

My brother just told me that my last message could be read as sarcastic and mean. I *hope* it wasn't. I was just being, ah, jocular, I guess. Light-hearted joking around. All in good fun. *Always* in good fun, nothing to take too serioulsy or personally (jeezus, don't be like *that*). Okay? Speaking of T.V... For a long time, I thought Northern Exposure and Star Trek: TNG were the two best shows on television (NE appealed to my asthetics, and the fantasy of TNG). NE died a slow and painful death during the last sesaon, and Paramount got too greedy with ST:TNG; everything they've put out since then, Deep Space Nine, Voyager and the Generations movie, are pretty friggin' mediocre next to what they had accomplished with ST:TNG. Really sad. Cartoons: Mighty Mouse (I've heard good things abou the Animaniacs), the Simpsons and the *old* Spiderman with the sinister purple-black skylines and the constant bongo drums while Spidey swings around the buildings, the same scenes of him swinging for *minutes* on end. Homocide: Life on the Street used to have some of the best writing anywhere. Too good for televsion. Seems like they're running out of ideas now. I admit to watching and laughing at, uh, Friends (although none of the actors are inherently funny), Seinfeld, Roseanne, John Larroquette, and, um, Frasier (sometimes). NYPD Blue, Chicago Hope, ER---you know, all the big hits (jeez). I saw the first episdoe of Babylon 5, that's all. I watch the X-Files when I'm bored, but to me it seems like a lot of spooky music and not much else. Same deal with Outer Limits. I saw one (and only one) episode of Deep Space Nine that I didn't think was a complete waste of time: the one called, "The Visitor," I think. Sisko dies and Jake becomes a writer and you see him as an old man trying to find a way to bring his dad back. Regardless of the usual bad acting, I was actually *moved* by that episode. It's was just a *good* story. I think I watch too much TV. Anyhow, I gotta go bed and read some Raymond Carver. G'night.

Suzan <Suzanr@inetnow.net>
Duluth, GA USA - Monday, September 09, 1996 at 19:29:05 (CDT)

Keegan, Your posting of last Wednesday reminded me of the reason I went into teaching (high school Biology). The "spark" for science is just as real as for the "fine arts" (writing, painting, etc.). Sometimes I forget why the fires started. All: On the current topic, I hate Seinfeld. Animaniacs, Simpsons,and Tiny Toons are favorites of mine. Has anyone else seen the Tiny Toon episode that was a take off of Deliverance? Hysterically funny! For drama, Babylon 5 is good (when I can keep myself up that late). Are You Being Served is another good comedy. Other than that I don't watch much TV.

Phillip Cairns
- Monday, September 09, 1996 at 18:28:05 (CDT)

Jason said, "Philip, what about the Emmys?" (BTW, that's Phillip with 2 l's.) And like I said, nothing on tv last night. Sadly, I do have an opinion on just about every show that's out there (my favourties, etc.), but I'll share those views later on tonight when, again, I have nothing better to do. P.S.: How about the monitor you're reading these words off of right now? Does it qualify as a "glass teat"? Chew on that.

keegan
- Monday, September 09, 1996 at 16:24:28 (CDT)

Teevee...hmmm....Well, right off the bat, I'm with Jason about the "Simpsons". It's my favorite. Consistently funny and thought-provoking. I happen to like "Seinfeld"-very New York. "Home Improvement" is very good, too. I like it because it shows a family that has a good sense of humor. Jill throws some excellent one-liners at Tim. "Pinky and the Brain", "Bullwinkle", and of course, Bugs Bunny are fave 'toons. Favorite dramas? Some have met their demise like "I'll Fly Away" (which, thankfully, PBS aired when NBC wasn't making the bucks with it). "ER" is pretty good, so's "NYPD Blue". Have gotten into "Sliders" and "The X-files", neither of which I liked at first. My husband and best friend made me watch 'em and now I don't think they're half bad. And forgive me, but I enjoy watching Howard Stern's E! show. Sometimes he makes me mad and I turn him off, but other times, he's genuinely funny. A little irreverance is fun, but sometimes he just goes too damn far!

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
Sucking air, the battery died in the remote last year - Monday, September 09, 1996 at 10:16:27 (CDT)

TV? As in Weather Channel?.. I like the "local on the 8's", but they can stuff the "International".. I keep wondering why International isn't called European, since I don't recall ever seeing anything about Australia, Asia, Africa, South America, or Antarctica.. OK, I'll agree to drop Antarctica.. But even so, that leaves the majority of International unnaccounted for.. We don't do much TV. Never did. The occasional show here and there. The rare channel surfing when we've run out of both printed matter and conversation.. CD's are the background 'white noise' of choice, the soothing balm for life 'out there' where the weird things are. **PHILLIP**JASON** I read the transcript (thanks for the URL). Didn't find it confusing or interesting. Did feel sympathy for HE - I can't 'get the hang' of that chat thing either. Stuff passes by too quickly for me. I try to follow what's going on in progress, and incorporate it all in my response.. Which means, by the time I get what I want to say together and typed, the entire topic has already disappeared into whatever form of history is just past the top margin.. And my response floats in like a raw sewage dump in the midst of whatever everyone else has moved on to discussing.. I'll stick to B-Boards and e-mails. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Jason
- Sunday, September 08, 1996 at 23:31:42 (CDT)

'Philip, what about the Emmys? The show that allows us poor plebians to honor those who give us entertainment through the divine medium of television?' Jason typed, wondering how he could convey the extremely heavy tone of sarcasm across to the others. Typing of sarcasm HE was being sarcastic when he was talking about the intelligent informed questions, but hey judge for yourself and read it. Definetly wasn't impressed with them. You know what I do? I read the interviews HE does, if I ever get the chance to talk with him I don't want to waste my time asking question that have already been asked, and I don't want to ask a stupid question. Just some pointers, leave him alone on about TLDV and City... He said what he has to say on the subject. Asking about B5 doesn't seem to rate too highly wth him either. Anyway the purpose of this post, New Topic Kiddies!! The Glass Teat: what is your suckling juice of choice? Your must see t.v. (Hope I don't get sued for that) Your guilty pleasures, what you think should be kicked off the air. I'll go first, Simpsons is a must, the fact that it isn't nominated for best writing, much less best comedy is unjust. I think I am the only person on the planet who doesn't find Seinfeld funny, I can't see how these four people could possibly be friends, much less be outside a mewntal institution. Fraiser 3rd rock from the sun and Friends is funny. X-Files, B5 and the Star Trek spin offs are good shows. Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner should have been nominated at least once. I like Law and Order, NYPD Blue is okay, no real problem with ER or Chicago Hope, I'm just not fond of medical shows. I love cartoons Gargoyles, and anything done by Warner Bros is great. Superman, Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain. Top notch. David Hasslehoff should get off the pretentiousness pedestal he's on and admit his show is just T&A. That's about it from me how about you?

Phillip
- Sunday, September 08, 1996 at 19:12:16 (CDT)

Okay, it's sunday night, 9:30pm, nothing on the glass teat, and I got nothing better do. So here's the edited version of that WorldCon chat with Harlan Ellison. I just cut and pasted all of it from the transcript I found at the aforementioned site (below). I didn't see any copyright message anywhere, so I'm guessing it's all public domain. If that's not the case, well, Rick can delete it when he gets back. It's a bit of jumbled mess (not my fault). These are the words of HE, typos included: "I have no personal favorite story. That's a mugg's game, like voting for Miss Amurrica. When I write them, I love them all. Later, I see where they have emerged somewhat crippled. And I try to do beter next time. After forty years of batting a keyboard, I'm just now actually learning how to write well. That is not false humility--something I do badly--" "but the smile truth. When it comes to predicting which story will do well with the readers, and which ones won't, I'm utterly at a loss. I am personally very fond of 'Grail"...but no one seems to pay any attention to it...a story on which I sweated bullets for six months. But "Chatting with Anubis" "No dog. When Ahbhu died, that was it. No pets at all. Just Susan and me. And I bloody well HATE cats. "I DON'T WRITE ANY SET NUMBER OF PAGES PER DAY. I write the way Captain Nemo played the pipe organ. I just sit doewn and boogie. It's ALWAYS "Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor" for me." "Astaroth, dahlink, if White Wolf is having "financial difficultkies" then a lot of people are in trouble. In fact, there are "difficulties" and there are DIFFICULTIES. At the moment White Woldf has "difficulties." I presume everything will straighten out. At least, I speak to the head of the company, Stuart Wieck, every week...and I know what their state of exchequer is. So take it easy. We're in no trouble at the mom" "I'm gonna wind down soon, in fact almost immediately, because4 I've got a book signing for SLIPPAGE , as I said earlier; and it happens in 15 minutes, and frankly, I'd like to take a whiz before I have to sit for two hours signing and answering dumb questions--unlike the WISE, WONDERFUL, INTELLIGENT, INFORMED and best of all POLITE questions you all have proffered here today. Stay well, stop smoking, don't eat McDonald's To" "So long."

Jason
- Sunday, September 08, 1996 at 17:21:28 (CDT)

Aw shucks Keegan, you're making me blush. Phillip it wasn't that boring, confusing yes. It's best printed out so you can work out who HE is talking to. One point of note in the discussion HE is working on the screenplay for Mefisto in Onyx, as a project for Miramax film and Samuel L. Jackson. Being the gloryhogging egomaniac that I am, I feel a need to remind you that I picked Samuel L. Jackson for the role way back in our discussion of the project. You may now bow at feet to and marvel at my prescient abilities--Ÿ™†™�ˆš„�— I'm sorry about that, I guess Keegan's comment did something to me, but I'm much... better now. For anybody's who interested, I have; THE ORIGIN OF HARLAN ELLISON'S DREAM CORRIDOR! (wow) It seems that DC was originally intended to be a t.v. show by HBO and later Showtime, but the suits couldn't understand HE's concept, and asked for storyboards, which they didn't want to pay for. (Everybody's o.k.? No heart attacks from those suprising bombshells?) Anyway HE decided to make it a comic book. Well that wasn't as interesting as I hoped. I'll go away now, Jason

Phillip
- Sunday, September 08, 1996 at 15:37:17 (CDT)

Here's a "chat" with HE from last weekend's SF WorldCon (or something like that). It't not every interesting, but if you have nothing better to do... http://www.scifi.com/sfw/worldcon/chats/harlane.html

keegan
- Saturday, September 07, 1996 at 23:15:56 (CDT)

Jason- I saw your story about the teacher and, indeed, it was a masterwork. Those who missed it will just have to trust me. I laughed; I cried. And I thanked you for it and for the info about buying the Hornbook and HE's movie as a package to save some bread. Then I wrote a message to Doc, which I will repeat as close to verbatim as I can get:"DOC- you okay? I got a brick. Do you got an address? Hope you're recovering well." When I came back to see if Doc was okay, I discovered the board had blown up. Oh, well. Anyway, thanks again for the info!

Jason
- Saturday, September 07, 1996 at 22:12:01 (CDT)

I hate repeating myself, so I'm not going to repeat the story of the teacher who inspired me. I couldn't do it anyway because, what I wrote the first time was such a masterpiece of literature that any attempt to recreate it, would be the foulest form of desecration. (For those of you who read it, please don't spoil it for me, I get so little joy out of life.) I will repeat what I know of HE's DCQ #2, The solicitation date is listed as Nov 6th, it will contain 5 adapted stories four of which are The Silver Corridor, The Discarded, The Man on the Juice Wagon, and Djinn no Chaser. $5.95.

Barney Dannelke <dannelke01@enter.net>
Allentown, PA. "It Can't Happen Here" - Saturday, September 07, 1996 at 21:03:14 (CDT)

I am looking for the (5) special insert chase cards referred to as metalstorm cards in the Barcley Shaw trading card set. On the checklist these are MS1,MS2,MS3,MS4 and MS5. The Ellison connection here is that Mr.Shaw did cover art for the re-release of Ellison titles done by Ace and Bluejay in the 80's. These 5 cards do not contain Ellison related art. Name your price or I could trade back issues of Fantasy and Science Fiction with Ellison appearances.Thanks in advance. By the way, I know this should go on the want adds board but I keep getting bounced out of it. Doc, Sue, Wolfmistress, as you can see the reports of my death blah,blah blah. I see the yellow is back. Ouch. I just finished the intro. material to "City On the Edge of Forever". While the arguments in defense of the work are quite sound and I love Harlan dearly 50 pages of preaching to the converted went over about as well as the John Gault speech from "Atlas Shrugged". Points are made in the front matter, repeated in the TV Guide Special segment and then gone over again in the conclusion. I think keying Ms. Roddenberry's favorite car and soaping her windows would have been more satisfying. William Shatner is shallow and Joan Collins should duct tape bookends to her head so that her brains don't slosh out her ears. We knew that. But the Hitler/train revelation was helpful, On the other hand, none of this matters as the teleplay is there and it's as brilliant as it was when I read it in the 70's and the aterwords are all a genuine treat. Quoting Shatner on the back cover was, in the words of Eric Idle, "cruel, but fair." Later.

Sue Luesse <it's back there somewhere>
- Saturday, September 07, 1996 at 19:01:13 (CDT)

Whoa! Don't everyone talk at once.. Hey, Webmeister, how many days ahead did you lose??

Webmaster <wirehead@cei.net>
- Friday, September 06, 1996 at 17:00:58 (CDT)

I have good news and I have bad news. The good news is that the delays in accessing this page should now be a thing of the past. Our web server has been upgraded to a screaming Pentium 200. The bad news is that a day's worth of posts here were lost in the shuffle.

Sue Luesse
- Thursday, September 05, 1996 at 14:26:23 (CDT)

Yaknow - I think Teaching is an art. It sure isn't rote, or by a formula - and involves a lot of creativity and passion to be successful. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.com>
Ft. Collins, Colorado USA - Thursday, September 05, 1996 at 13:43:13 (CDT)

Don Epstein...whatever happened to him, anyway? Until next time... Jim

keegan
- Wednesday, September 04, 1996 at 22:06:10 (CDT)

Thanks, Phillip! I will definitely purchase and check out. I suspected as much, actually. Again, thanks.

Phillip Cairns
- Wednesday, September 04, 1996 at 21:03:37 (CDT)

I can't confirm this, but I have a feeling HE hated schoool, teachers, etc. Just a feeling. At least the formal setting of it. As for a music teacher, I direct you to page 235 of THE HE HORNBOOK (by far, HE's best book of non-fiction in my opinion): Speaking of his roommate during his college days... "[Don Epstein], turned me on to jazz. Mulligan, Brubeck, Chet Baker, Lennie Tristano, Kenton, Manne, Shorty Rogers---the whole West Coast jazz scene that was so exuberant during the mid-Fifties. It was like getting a whole new set of ears... He introduced me to classical music... I listened to the imperishable sounds of genius and began to grow as a human being." PLUG: The Harlan Ellison Hornbook is available at a reasonable price (cheaper than Edgeworks, I think) through the HERC.

me again
- Wednesday, September 04, 1996 at 16:16:12 (CDT)

"persussion". Hey, that's fun to say! Viva los taipos!

keegan today <keegan@lightlink.com>
Jazz ain't nuthin' but life misspelled, - Wednesday, September 04, 1996 at 16:12:11 (CDT)

Okay. The recent conversation and my life in general has me thinking about lots of things. Mostly I'm thinking about teaching and art. See, it ocurred to me that many of those little rugrats into whose brain I spoonfeed the likes of Bach, Penderecki, Clifford Brown, and Bob Marley (along with the RDA of folk-songs, kids songs, persussion and dance) have no clue WHY studying an inconsequential thing like music is so important. When I tell 'em it's because music is like vitamins for the mind (i.e. a discipline of the mind which "stretches" it, relaxes it, or stimulates it) they have that "Hmmm..Wow, cool!" reaction. Now I think the primary reason to do music is to have fun. That's why they call it "playing" music. But others *don't* have that inborn "spark" of which Steve wrote. The spark might be struck if they give it a chance, but somebody has to be flint/steel and someone, tinder. Some kids are all wet. They have no interest at all and not even logic can convince them they should care. I give those kids other, non-musical, tasks to support the musical project (maybe writing words to an original piece or designing simple sets for a performance). Sometimes these kids "dry" (or perhaps "season" is a better word) and the spark smolders enough to be fanned into full flame. Some kids are already burning and just eat music up; other kids need more coaxing. But the teacher MUST be flint and steel. That's not meant to imply that the teacher should be hard and cold, rather that the teacher must be able to transfer a spark. If the teacher isn't flint and steel (or at least a decent Bic) the tinder WILL NOT CATCH. I think personality and craft are very much at issue in excellent teaching. Anyway, why I bring it up, is that I'm curious to know any experiences readers of this board have had in public-school arts-ed. classes (music, art, dance, etc.-you know what I'm saying). Did your teachers light you up and help you love it? Or did they douse the fun and make it a drag? I'm curious to know because it may provide food for thought that will help make my classes even more fun and useful than they already are. By the way, HE has prodigious appreciation for and knowledge about music. I'm curious to know whether he had a decent music teacher, he learned it at home, or he's just picked it up along the way by being attentive and interested. Thanks, all.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Wednesday, September 04, 1996 at 16:04:50 (CDT)

Yeah, it's me again. The one who still can't get it to come out in print the way I know it in my head.. **KEEGAN**STEVE** You're right - there are no absolutes to human abilities, and we can't even see ability until it is applied to something. I've never been real clear about whether the ability or the achievement is the critical factor, and whether or not there is some differential value in what is undertaken. So I mostly shrug, and let it go. I do think I enjoy and appreciate achievements more when I educate myself about what was undertaken. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan <back to school and damn glad about it>
- Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 19:09:05 (CDT)

Gee, Steve. I wish I had taken a math course with you! That's one reason I teach music, to create that spark in other people. And even if my students aren't sparked to become great musicians, they at least have some fun with it, and that's okay, too!

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Binghamdump, NY - Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 17:35:00 (CDT)

I often surprise people by being an optimist and a pessimist at the same time. As an optimist, I believe that every human being has within him/herself the ability to excel at some special skill, and when they perform at that skill, they make Art, whether that Art be something that is stereotypically associated with 'Art' (painting, writing, singing, sculpture, etc), or something that is less so (math, science, athletics, even repairing cars). However, I'm also a pessimist in that I think that we as humans are inherently lazy and too prone to falling far short of our capabilities to produce Art in whatever area we're gifted in, and so we have so many people in this world that either cannot see the fact that they can create Art, or cannot find that one skill which they excel in, or simply don't care enough to try. I think that every skill can be learned by any human being (disregarding any handicaps which may make a skill literally impossible for a person, and even then those people with such handicaps are known to overcome them to miraculous extents), but to go *beyond* the normal stages that one can be led to, to be able to do on one's own what most people cannot attain despite an inhuman amount of training, *that* is (at least a form of) Art, and I'm convinced that such Art requires some sort of 'spark', either a spark one is born with or a spark one acquires while growing up, and if you have it, you have it, while if you don't, you don't. (How's that for a run-on sentence, guys?) I have a spark for math, for teaching, and for writing (although in writing I'm not nearly as good as HE or the other world-class writers), and conversely I have no spark to speak of for singing, dancing, painting, composing music, acting, history, sociology, and a slew of other things that I know that, no matter how long I should practice, unless I am struck with some epiphany in my studies of the subject, I'll never be able to create Art with/in/from. So much for whether some people 'have it' and some don't; as far as whether or not one should be granted special treatment for possessing the ability to do Art, in that I don't believe that having artistic ability should grant one leeway to commit acts that are legally and/or morally wrong.

Phillip
- Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 16:07:59 (CDT)

Hmm...

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.Com>
Ft. Collins, Colorado USA - Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 15:44:37 (CDT)

Wow. I wander off for about a week and all heck happens! Huh. Go figure. I miss all the good stuff. Speaking of good stuff (sh**?) TCV WWW#12 is on-line, so that's that. Also ANHEDONIA Vol. 1 No. 14 is out (has some stuff in it on HE, if'n youse care). And that said, I'm off to annoy the police type people again. Until next time... Jim

James C. Hess <104656.765@CompuServe.Com>
Ft. Collins, Colorado USA - Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 15:44:35 (CDT)

keegan
- Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 15:07:26 (CDT)

Just have to jump on something Sue said (not to kill it, but to give it a big ol' bear hug). Sue said that she is certain her writing "sucks". That's honest and I say it takes that kind of self-honesty to develop as any kind of artist (should you choose to do so). I say this because I am quite certain that I, as a jazz singer, suck. That is, I suck when held up to the candle of Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaughn et al, whose repertoire I have the unmitigated chutzpah to cover. I do it very well, but dream as I might, I ain't one of the greats (yet). I still have a mountain of dues to pay. If I thought I was already the greatest, the whole thing would die because I wouldn't work at it as hard. Have you ever met somebody who came off like the greatest at something, then, when you witnessed them in action discovered that s/he was a complete poseur? Much better to go about your creativity with humility and sweat rather than ego and cocktails. Sue, I don't think your writing "sucks", but at times it does tend to become unwieldy. 'S okay, I ain't a writer either, but unfortunately, lack of craft can lead to misunderstandings (it's happened to me more than once). Guess that's why I respect really fine writers. I keep trying to get better at that (writing), too. Webderland has been a useful tool in that regard. Many, many thanks to all those who read, write, care enough to argue, and generally keep this an intelligent and civil forum for thought.

Jason
- Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 12:16:06 (CDT)

I admit I get pretty intense during a discussions, force of habit I suppose. Hit an adversary hard enough they tend to stumble through the rebuttal and you're more likely to win the debate. But, if you think Rick and I are being hard on Sue, look back of what HE says to the person on usenet who argued against the creator's right to have control over his creations. That was harsh. *Phil* I'm just going to say something on Rick's behalf, since he's on vacation and may not have time or a chance to say it himself. (Rick if I'm off base here than by all means put me in my place) After you've read my post go back and read the end to Rick's post again. Rick is accusing Sue of separating a group of people from the general populace because of a common trait that they share, and then telling those people that the rules apply differently to them because of that trait. Doesn't sound more than a little like what the Nazi said to the jews, or the Afrikanners said to the natives? I'm sure that's not what Sue meant, but that what he gets from her posts. Now see why he's being serious about it? Every joke has a serious side and every serious situation has a funny side. Well that's that, Jason

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Tuesday, September 03, 1996 at 11:00:33 (CDT)

Full circle, folks. Everyone is creative, so everyone is an artist, and everyone includes me, so I guess I have to be one, or be disabused of my phallicies as a righteous punishment, - but it does hurt that I'm stuck with being such a +lousy+ writer.. And there's no way out of it either, since the only one with the 'right' to judge my artistry is *me*, and I AM absolutely, stomach churned, revolted by it, dead certain *my* writing sucks.. And since I dare not SAY my art sucks (and admit the possiblity there _may_ be others like me out there, much better at appreciating art than making it), and is so clearly prejudicial, elitist,and dangerous to 'create' a division between those that can, and those that can't by saying it (though perfectly acceptable to castigate those who can't and do anyway, for creating the 'crap' which is the best they can manage), I shouldn't get testy about this whole thing. Hey - there are no other options... Ayup, I can see the logic to it all....And while you disabuse me, don't give me any more credit than I deserve. I am not the one periodically ranting about "all the crap in print" (no divisive judgment of art implied in that, is there?). This is the first time I have even responded to it - and I chose to do it by using heavy sarcasm to restate the POV in it's basic form, rather than 'get personal', in the hope that intelligence would recognize just how elitist, prejudiced, and illogical that rant is, do a quick reality-check, and self-correct. Well, we got the words elitist, prejudiced, and illogical recognized - can application of this recognition be far behind? My behind is telling me it's definately being applied.. but not as hoped. And as for the Friendly Discussion - well, it WAS friendly for quite some time there. So I thank those who considered my stated 'as audience' POV, and added their own takes as both artist and audience (since we ARE all audience, aren't we?). I found them informative and enlightening. I do agree that Art/art (a distinction HE defined, which I accept) is very subjective, highly emotional, and about as good an Issue to debate as which way toilet paper should hang off the roller for reaching conclusions about Truth and Rights, and look forward to darn near ANY other topic of discussion. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Will Knott
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 22:13:24 (CDT)

Along with Phillip (and I'm sure we are not the only two), I have enjoyed reading, without feeling the need to contribute to, the FRIENDLY discussion of the past few days. But, whenever I hear anyone use the words, "How dare you," all I can think is, "Man, he's taking this WAY too seriously." And I agree with Phillip: There is no truth, only YOUR truth.

Phillip Cairns
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 21:31:56 (CDT)

Gotta tell ya, folks, this is a very entertaining discussion ya got flying across the board right now. It reminds me of a lively discussion that occured in one of my university English classes after we read Kafka's, "The Hunger Artist." We went on arguing for days the definition of the artist, the audience-artist relationship, and a whole lotta other stuff that's come up on the board here in the past few days. EVERYONE had a strong opinion and it was impossible to come to any definite conclusions. Art is SO subjective, it can't be done. There is no truth, only YOUR truth. It's a very touchy subject and once you start arguing over it, it never ends. (Perhaps that's what art/the artist is: so indefinable that it will always exist. Endless. See what I'm saying? Once you define something and nail it down like that, it dies. Whatever.) Here's a few quotes that are kinda related to what we're talking about here (and if not, well, they're something to think about). In 1955, James Baldwin said (with emphasis on the last sentence): "One writes out of one thing only---one's own experience. Everything depends on how relentlessly one forces from this experience the last drop, sweet or bitter, it can possibly give. This is the only real concern of the artist, to recreate out of the disorder of life that order which is art." And Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes) said: "Why does man create?... Is it man's purpose on earth to express himself, to bring form to thought, and to discover meaning in experience?... Or is it just something to do when he's bored?"

keegan <keegan@lightlink.com>
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 21:19:58 (CDT)

ooooh! ouch! strong words, strong feelings. I don't know whether the burn's from fire or ice. seems pretty icy from this vantage point and as good ol' Bobby Frost reminded us "will suffice" to end the world. First of all, the refutation of Sue's categorization of artists as somehow apart from the rest of humanity is warranted and the point should be well taken. All artists are human beings. Vice-versa, all human beings are, in some senses, artistic. I think that hacking up the human race into any *more* divisions is useless. At the same time, I believe that what Sue is actually trying to express is a frustration at not being able to immediately lay hands on "the good stuff". She seems to want to lay blame somewhere, but perhaps there is no blame to place. Maybe that's just the way of it--ya gotta wade through th sh!t to get to that lovely rose. And that sucker has *it's* thorns, too! Remember, this conversation began over the question of whether an author has the *right* to destroy his work. I still maintain that of course s/he does! That doesn't mean that I, should I hear of it, won't feel a loss, however minimal. Just gotta deal with it. We all have our hopes and our wishes and our dreams. Speaking of dreams, we're all trying to put our personal label on Art and that seems, to me, a fool's task. I think the guy who got closest to it was HE himself in his essay, "The Words in Spock's Mouth". Pick it up again-it's pertinent to this conversation. If you're reading in _Edgeworks_, look at page 87. Art is dreams. That definition is close enough for me. And just like I've had some dreams about which I'd never tell anyone but my therapist, there is some art that I do that's just for me. Period.

Steve P <zazu@spectra.net>
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 17:24:58 (CDT)

*Jason* Three hours for Edgeworks!? Damn, now I *know* I'm a slow reader. Reading that tome took me about a week all told, maybe a total of 10 hours or so. :P Short anecdote about Eddings and Harlequin (possibly apocryphal): Eddings was teaching an English class and was laying into how badly written romance novels are. One of his students, a fan of romance novels, objected vehemently to his scathing comments, and asked if he could do better. He said he could sit down that night and write a romance novel that he could and would get published. The student didn't believe him, so Eddings went out, bought some beer, and sat down at the keyboard, and before dawn the next morning he had the MS done -- and he got it published.

Jason
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 17:01:28 (CDT)

Well said Rick, I'm going add a little bit of my own to a couple of things. Sue I'm going to start with your most recent post and work backwards, try and keep up. First off I don't think all that many artist are driven to create, HE certainly isn't, he does it because that's what he does, he's found something he likes, and is good enough that he can make a comfortable living off of, if he had to do it all over again he'd be a plumber. Another thing why do you insist on capitalizing the words artist(s) and audience? Neither one is important enough to really justify it, especially not the audience. Look at Xenogenesis the fans, the Audience have driven many writers away from them, unwilling to meet them for fear of they don't know what. Support and affirm my Great Aunt Fanny! The audience loves to tear down it's idols as much as it like to put them up. A couple of posts ago you were talking about how HE owes the readers for their support, and it sounded familiar, and now I remember it was in Xenogenesis. Think about it. Art is not some noble and holy thing at whose feet we should prostrate ourselves, it's something we do because can't spend all our time eating sleeping or having sex. I've used this quote before, Scott McCloud's definition of art: Art is any human activity which doesn't grow out of either of our species two basic instincts: Survival or Repoduction. It's that simple, art is not an either/or supposition. There is art that helps us ascend to the light, and we should pay attention to it, but that doesn't invalidate the art that's designed to make us laugh or smile. As for 'Faux artistes' I'll leave it alone as Rick's point says the point eloquently. As to Sturgeon's law, yes it's true, do you know why 90% of everything is sh!t? Because sh!t attracts the most flies. Harlequin books can be written by anybody, you just send for the guidelines which tell you the rules of how to write the book. The rules are there because, the audience doesn't want anything new or challenging, they want heaving breastr rippled pecs and true love. 90% of everything is sh!t, but what I consider the good 10% is probably different from what you or HE would consider the 10% we keep, there's maybe 1% most people would have in common, and from there we'd probably cover everything. For example I couldn't get through The Great Gatsby, because it kept putting me to sleep, maybe I should try again, but if someone asked me right now what are the one hundred greatest books of the twentieth century, I guarantee Gatsby wouldn't be on it. On the other side how many people are going to put Fargo on their ten best movie list for this year? Sh!t like time is relative. And I'm glad it's out there in the proportion that it is, (maybe 20-80%) I think everybody should read crap once in a while, how else can you appreciate the good stuff; two sides to every sky and all that. Steve just read yor post, same sitution for me and Anne Rice books, although thhe novelty is starting to drop I'm half way through Servant of Bones (it was a gift I asked for it) it's taken me a week and only now is she starting to the point of the story. For comparison, I read Edgeworks in one sitting, and it took me about three hours. Sue many more "sensitive beautiful" artists, (however did you come up with that conclusion? Two words: Fyodor Dostoyevsky) died because governments weren't comforatble with the radical ideas that were put out, because disease was rampant earlier in history, and because drugs are rampant now. There is a film out now that I can't remember his name about an artist how died at 23 from a heroin overdose, he had an audience a man named Andy Warhol, If I remember the story correctly the artist didn't get into heroin until after fame had struck. Artist serves a function in society, a good one, but then again so do plumbers. HE said a good plumber does more good for the human race in a given day than fifty writers. Part 2 in a while Jason

Steve Pagano <zazu@spectra.net>
Endicott, NY - Monday, September 02, 1996 at 14:14:03 (CDT)

*keegan* I'm still here, just been lurking a while, since I haven't (until now) had anything to contribute, and this messed-up world has been taking an inordinate amount of my tim of late. :P I can't promise I can be there, but if I can make it to Elmira, I'll need directions, and cost and such! :) *Everyone* As to the debate on Artists versus non-Artists, if you want an objective, well-delinteated approach to the question, Ayn Rand has a number of well-written essays on the subject. As to the question on how to get rid of the crap: Well, in general, the reason why we have so much crap is that *that's what people want*, or at the very least it's what the money-making corporations think people want. I once asked my wief why she was reading a trashy romance novel instead of something more productive, more Artful, and she said 'Because I'm exhausted from my work and I want something that isn't going to take any effort to digest.' Things that are Artistic aren't always easy to digest, like learning to appreciate and enjoy classical music, or to find the meanings in HE's works, or to respect the accomplishments of artists in other fields. Of course, being hard to understand doesn't make it art, and likewise you don't have to be hard to understand to be artistic. But we all tend to like things that are familiar and don't tax us too much. I'm reminded of Bilbo's speech at his birthday-party at the start of LotR, and the comment that (paraphrased) 'This is the sort of things that [Hobbits] liked: short and obvious.' Too many people would rather be fed the drivel of typical sit-coms and the like than to watch a more mentally taxing show, like say Law and Order or the other similarly 'intelligent' shows. Too many people would rather read the dreadful Star Wars drivel put out in the past few years than read something like Ellison or Asimov or Bester or a number of others. People don't want Art, they want entertainment, and so many people have standards so low that there's endless strings of garbage hitting the shelves. And like Unca Harlan has pointed out, if it don't sell, it's gone and doesn't come back. As a final example, I'll mention that I'm at present reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, and I can say that I have two somewhat surprisingly different attitudes towards his works: 1) I like them, at least enough to continue buying the paperbacks to follow the characters along. (But not enough to shell out for a single hardcover.) But despite my enjoyment of the series so far, there's 2) Jordan is an unmitigated hack writer who's clearly in love with his own voice, takes twice as much time to say anything as he needs, has terrible problems with grammar and pronoun use, and occasionally does things with his characters that are unexpected not because he's being clever, but because his personifications of the characters is sometimes riddled with holes. The point? His work is not what I'd call art -- but I do like it enough to purchase it. I'll stoop that low, per se. And I know that I tend to set my standards extremely high. Imagine how low someone with half your own level of standards would be willing to stoop, and have a guess at how many people like that there are out there, and maybe that's an explanation of why so much crap still hits the shelves every month.

Rick Wyatt
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 12:42:53 (CDT)

*Sue* - I understand your feelings about the artist, but I feel obliged to point out what I feel are two very real and very dangerous fallacies in your argument. The first notion I would wish to disabuse you of is the separation of society you make into "artists" and "non-artists". I think making this kind of division, and ESPECIALLY scoffing at the efforts of the "non-artist" portion to create "art", smacks of elitism and prejudice. If that division does exist, it is a very shadowy one and I wonder why you feel qualified to map it out. I also wonder who you are to deride the attempts at creation, at expression, by people who do not meet your standards, as the acts of a non-artist or a wannabe. The second notion that troubles me is this idea that art is no longer art when the artist uses it to survive, and that the artist by doing so gives up the rights to his/her own work. I agree that an influential artist, indeed ANYONE who has the ability to make an impact on the world or just their community (including preachers, teachers, and thee), should do so responsibly and positively. But we can no more stand in judgement over the artist who doesn't want others to see some work than we can stand in judgement over the teacher who does not work every waking hour; any more than we can stand in judgement over YOU for the hours and possessions YOU reserve for yourself. For chrissake, you would not only label sold art as non-art, as a possession (as if the artist should work as a garbageman or beg to survive), you would also tell someone like Harlan who has given us SO much for so many years, "That's not enough, we want more, we want it ALL, and you have no right to stop us"? How DARE you? How dare you first set people apart from the general populace, and then tell those people that because of their talent and effort they have lost the privileges we all take for granted! I'm sorry, but the world is going to have to get by without some half-ass story Ellison never liked or finished. You be happy with what you've got, because with attitudes like yours out there it's a wonder the artist even bothers with the act of creation in the first place.

Sue Luesse
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 12:05:03 (CDT)

Sorry - forgot to relay a message from WolfMistress - she is expecting (hoping?) to be back on line sometime this week or next. Sends a big HOWDY to all.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 10:43:54 (CDT)

**DOC**KEEGAN** I agree. Artists belong to a whimsical and demanding Muse, and are indeed driven to 'commit' art. Which is WHY I feel so strongly about Audience supporting the Artists. It aint no secret that artists pretty much aren't Mainstream kinda folk, and as a direct result they get a TON o' Flack - as in prejudice, discrimination, even persecution at times. And it also isn't unheard of for gifted, beautiful, sensitive artists to be crushed and broken by that pressure - too many die too young in desparation BECAUSE they never find the support of an Audience. No, I'm not saying HE is one of them. But human history is littered with such losses - and I keep wondering What If they had found that symbiotic support and streangth? Selfish? I suppose it is - in a symbiotic way.. that benefits the artist, and serves Art well....As for the Sturgeon Law, well, it hardly began in his generation. There's Always been 90% (or even more) crap. It's due to human ego - Everyone is Above Average, Everyone is Creative, Everyone is Smart, Everyone 'Can Do That'.. So Everyone has always told Everyone else - as if art is created by the presence of an audience (which Business seems to believe). Add up all the artists with any talent and subtract them from the total population - WELLA! Exact number of how many people are pumping out crap at any given time. But that doesn't mean these same faux-artists can't tell the difference between Everyone else's Crap and Art - it's only their own Crap they can't seem to identify as such. Which helps to limit the flood a little at first - and over time, as real artists push art forms in new directions for faux-artists to 'wannabe', eliminates the crap entirely, leaving only the Art, which they all recognized (and wannabe'd) when it was New. The only cure for the Crap problem is ego-ectomies for the general population, or time. Of the two, Time is the most cost-efective and practical.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

keegan
- Monday, September 02, 1996 at 08:31:08 (CDT)

Hey, Doc- good point. I actually tried to type something to that effect on Friday night, but couldn't get it up on the board (which was probably ok, since it was a bit soaked in bourbon). No, I wouldn't stop singing just 'cause nobody was listening. In fact, as a jazz singer, it often feels like nobody's there. The "market" for jazz is quite small and it's hard to reach the larger audience without the assistance of the "business". I keep trying and am always grateful to perform for appreciative audiences. They aren't always there, though. Do I shut up? No, I dig deeper into the art and satisfy my need to do it. Sometimes, I have to CREATE audiences (which is one reason I teach music-it creates, I hope, more intelligent listeners who can appreciate a wide range of musical styles). I think HE would keep writing whether we bought it or not. It's a drive, it seems. Besides, I just can't see HE taking a day gig flipping burgers. BTW: Quick ad- I will be singing in Mandeville Hall at the Clemens Center in Elmira, NY on Friday night, September 6 at 7:30 pm. If you're in the area (Steve Pagano, are you out there?) stop on by and check out our tribute to Cole Porter!

Doc
- Sunday, September 01, 1996 at 23:15:34 (CDT)

Yeah, I can see the symbiosis angle, as far as feeding the artist so the artist can make more art for us to appreciate, buy, and feed the artist, lather, rinse, repeat. BUT -- Keegan, would you stop singing if nobody listened? Would Harlan stop telling stories if people stopped reading them? And that's a valid question: how many people out in the Wide Wunnerful World sre still reading? Reading fiction? Sturgeon's Law still holds, 90% of everything is sh*t. Small-if-any wonder there's an ocean of crap to wade through. *Should* publishers cease to publish ANYTHING that isn't "litter-choor?" I feel a new topic coming on: how do/can we reduce the tidal wave of dreck? Stop buying books? Stop going to movies? Can censorship "send a message" to Hollywood/CBSNBCABCFOX/Publishing House of Choice? CAN the public insist on quality? This should be choice! And *SUE* "What is all this brouhaha?" Later, Doc

keegan
- Sunday, September 01, 1996 at 15:12:24 (CDT)

apologies for double posting below. don't know what happened.

keegan
- Sunday, September 01, 1996 at 15:09:48 (CDT)

Okay, Sue, I can live with that. Symbiosis of artist and audience; the conflict of business and art--that makes sense to me. You're saying that the audience craves more from it's artists but that the business aspect of art (protecting one's rights in order to "put food on the table") often necessitates caution and protectiveness on the artist's behalf. That means the artist is forced into a position of withholding their most personal works and processes from the very people who would support and love the artist for willingly sharing those personal glimpses. Did I read it right? BTW, if you're thinking good thoughts in my general direction, thanks! It's working. I've experienced some strength and creative energy from someplace else. Are you the responsible party, Luesse? `[:^)

keegan
- Sunday, September 01, 1996 at 15:07:39 (CDT)

Sue Luesse
- Sunday, September 01, 1996 at 13:16:20 (CDT)

Well, guys, it still comes down to Business as opposed to Art. And I will whole-heartedly agree HE is very good at both. That can't be said for every artist - which is WHY HE so often can be found in the middle of a controversy defending Art from Business. And it does not make Audience less important. If I speak unequivocably as Audience, it does not mean I am of necessity wrong. HE writes to me (notice I do not say "for"), and if there were none such as myself for him to write to and share his art with, there would be a lot less artistic output. In return, I support, preserve, and affirm his art. It's symbiotic. We feed each other. That is the Art portion. I really doubt even HE would disagree with that, and have read often where HE speaks of his motivation to reach his readers with his writing. Business is what interferes with that in the form of money, rights, etc. And I don't have to look too far for support from HE as to his egotism (one of his most endearing traits is his total honesty). Responses on this Board seem to indicate that most of us are quite aware of being Audience with reference to HE, and do in fact have mixed feelings in that respect, even while supporting the Artist POV.. Business makes sure we get left out of the equation. Only our money is included in those calculations and plans. And it does affect artists to have legitimate audience feedback eliminated, so Business can pressure them to meet 'Market Needs' that are artificially determined by Business. And the Audience gets angry when we are Blamed for the crap we don't want, because Business Won't Let Us Choose.. If there were less emotional brou-ha-ha, and more symbiosis - the quality of every art would be vastly improved, because audiences aren't Really As Stupid as Business wants us to believe in the main. I think of the 'low-brow' popular playwrite Wm. Shakespeare, and yes HE as well.. They Just Won't Go Away and disappear like the critics know they should... Because the Audience Does know better, and won't let it happen. Don't be so quick to take either/or positions, when All-Of-The-Above may just as easily be the truth. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Bill Dennis <wjdennis@earthlink.net>
Salt Lake City, UT - Saturday, August 31, 1996 at 17:05:26 (CDT)

I just finished reading White Wolf's new release of HE's "City on the Edge of Forever" original script--and yes, it contains typos. . .sigh. At the end of the book, however, are various Afterwords by original Trek folks, including a succinct one by Walter Koenig. And man, I have to say that Koenig seems to be a superb writer. I've also read nice things which HE has written about Koenig through the years. Has anyone out there in Webderland read something by Koenig which he/she'd recommend, or which HE has been known to recommend? Thanks -- Billy D.

Doc
The Same Blighty Place, - Saturday, August 31, 1996 at 01:28:03 (CDT)

*Jason* -- Yes. Of cousrse you do. It's really funny. *Sue* my chum, my pal, my dumpling. You know vee iss frenz'n'all. But, if it it don't belong to HE after HE gets money for it, for why do they still put his name on it? Even from the business perspective, HE would own it until he got money for it. If HE died owning it, one would presume ownership would then go to the Lovely Susan -- who would likely do with it as Harlan asked or wanted. Who is in a better position to know what The Late Harlan Ellison would've wanted done with his literary remains? When that unhappy day arrives (far, far, FAAAAAAAR in the dim and distant future), Susan is hardly going to be a pauper(ess?). She might make them available, but I doubt she'll make them finishable. I really do think it's a ghoulish process. I wouldn't dream of roasting you for your views -- I think it's rather high-handed for anyone to tell people what their feelings about Art should or shouldn't be/include -- but I for one am willing to take HE's Last Published Story as HE's Last Published Story. As I understand it, Harlan thinks it's just marvy if his work(s) inspire others to go off in new/different directions: HE just don't want the results laid at his doorstep. I'm currently working on a novel "inspired" by one of Harlan's stories -- the further I get, the further *away* I get; but I'm sure as hell gonna acknowledge the influence, and NOT for legal purposes. Anyone reading it could (and will, I groan to think) point out other influences, real or imaginary, but no one is going to say, Oo, he's ripping-off Ellison's idea, in spite of the fact that I owe the notion to none other than Our Boy From Ohio. Harlan's name will probably not come up, beyond the acknowledgement and dedication. Anybody out there read, _Poodle Springs_? Robert B. Parker picked up a few chapters of Chandler's start on a next Phillip Marlowe novel, and made a whole book out of it. What started as a new direction for Marlowe -- married life w/ occasional murder -- SWIFTLY dropped right back into the noir cookie-cutter that Chandler himself created. Let's roll the calendar forward, say, 75 years -- Harlan, bless him, is gone, leaving pages of really interesting stuff; now, *I* come along, his favorite son-HE-never-had (oh, PLEASE be laughing,...) and decide to finish this Last Shining Moment,...and re-tell "Jefty," or "I Have No Mouth,..." or even a shorty like "The Voice in the Garden." Not only would I have legions of future readers hot for my neck, Harlan would claw his way out of his grave, reconstitute himself from the leavings in his urn, or whatever, and COME FOR ME! And, knowing Harlan, he might not even wait for me to finish the first page. Does HE owe his readers? Yes -- he owes them gratitude, and he repays that debt every time we get to put eyes to syllables (sp?); every time he sits down at one of his armada of typewriters (even when he puts himself in the hospital doing it); every time a nibble of Angry Candy gets us through a dark patch; every time we remember that, as Unca Harlan says, "[We] are not alone;" every time we laugh, or cry, or snarl with him and say, "Me, too, baby -- me f*cking, too." What else would/could we ask of ANY writer, in terms of recompense for buying their taudry ol' books. I do not feel ill-used. Did I eer tell you guys about the letter? Yeah, Harlan returned my correspondence. I had latched onto his home address by secret means and dark associations, and (Forgive me, O Lord) I wrote him a (gulp) fan letter. Well, soon I get back a note in longhamd from Susan: "Thank you for your kind letter. Harlan thought you might be interested in this. [signed]" HE was going to be doing a signing at a Houston bookstore (I was 3 hrs away in Corpus Christi), and I didn't get it in time to go. Drat. So, I wrote and told him about that and asked a few goofy questions. This was when I was working at the treatment(Chamber) center(of Horrors) and I was a mess. Don't know what came over me, y'r honor. Then, I became involved in a satire of a neo-Nazi cable-access program, that nobody wanted to see, but there's access for you. And I wrote a comedy sketch about which I felt ill-at-ease. And I wrote Harlan AGAIN -- is this the right way to handle the situation, with comedy, yakyakyak. And Harlan wrote me back. On his typewriter. On a big "Twilight Zone" bookmark. Answered my questions quickly, politely, and warmly, asking me please for a break, and thanks for reminding him he could no longer savor the delights of Pink's hot dogs. I have heard horrific tales of HE's behavior in the past. Dunno, wasn't there. What I can tell you is that, rather than flaying me in print via the Great Snail, Harlan took the time out of his really very busy schedule to be a warm, decent guy, and a human being, and alla them things HE touts so highly. He could've ignored me. He *could* have sent me a dead gopher ("This could be you -- never darken my mail-box again," etc.). Harlan Ellison repaid my somewhat-gushy admiration with kindness and gentle grace. Harlan owes ME nothing; I owe him quite a lot -- and he rpobably doesn't even remember any of it. Only HE can write HE stories, dead or alive. I hope I haven't said anything hurtful, because I think all of you guys are great -- even you, with the voice that could curdle concrete -- I just get a little carried away sometimes ("But not FAR enough away," did I hear that from the cheap seats?). Love, Doc

Jason
- Friday, August 30, 1996 at 21:00:54 (CDT)

*Sue*, you are so far off base you got picked off two innings ago and still don't know it. First of all HE is not planning on destroying unpublished stuff they will be destroying any work that is UNFINISHED when he dies. Second he didn't publicise it, it leaked out somehow, maybe someone specifically asked him at a book signing or something and he responded, then that person posted it up on the net, the statement HE makes is a response to the comments on the usenet. Third nowhere in that statment, does HE say the word OWN or any derivative thereof, also HE is talking about incomplete work things that have not been sold or even attempted to be sold so that point is generally invalid as an argument, but I will explore it even further for the purpose of enlightenment. HE does still own his story after he sells it, it's called copyrights, you know those little � things you see on the COPYRIGHT page? that means who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the story, what you pay for is the privelige to see and read that story. For physical objects it's called patents. Buying a phone does not give you the right to start your own phone company. As to who owes who, does the farmer owe the population for buying his food, or do we owe him for spending the time and effort to grow the food for us? Does Thomas Edison owe society for finding the light bulb useful, or do we owe Edison for giving us a safer means to banish the darkness? Does HE owe us for buying his books, or do we owe him for sharing with us his gift for storytelling? There're all symbiotic relationships. You're forgetting Sue that you're getting something out of the exchange, or at least you should be. If you don't feel you are, go buy someone else's books, it's that simple. just because HE makes his money from his writing doesn't make dollar any less hard earned than yours, but I guess you don't understand that because your not an 'arteeest' Yes your opinion is unenlightened, because it fails take into account his side of the deal and yes that does make it wrong, wrong, wrong, Wrong! The audience decides who 'deserves' to succeed? What universe are you from? Most of everything that succeeds today are things that cater to the lowest common denominators, sex, violence and special effects. Yes indeedy the Macarena really does deserve to be the most popular dance in North America by the way who are those guys you were talking about? Barishnikov? Gene Kelly? who the hell are they? I'm very wary of anything that is extremely popular, because I find the public as a whole doesn't have very good taste. How else do you explain the Macarena, or Jim Carrey and Pauly Shore movies? Something that caters to everybody, often lacks something that makes it really stand out above the crowd. There are exceptions, but they're rare. Sue, try reading that statement again with your eyes open this time. On a less hostile note; For my birthday I got 'The Magic behind the Music' the CD collection featuring the music of the first three of the new age of Disney Musicals some of the songs in the collection were unreleased demos of songs that for various reasons were not included in the movies, there was a lot of good material and I'm glad I had a chance to hear some of the late Howard Ashman's 'lost work' In this case it was appropriate and all the songs were complete and released with Alan Menken's help (he did the music) I don't know if you know this, but one line in the song Arabian Nights was changed for the home video version because some Arabs complained. This was after Ashman died so someone else did it, the problem waswhoever did it screwed up the rhyming scheme. It's just one line but it still irritates the hell out of me. I would love to see HE's unfinished work collected, but for whatever reasons HE doesn't want to show us the man behind the curtain. (Wizard of Oz referance for those who might be wondering.) He may not want to have scraps and pieces that might not be any good to be the last thing that was known to write. He might be worried that people less-talented than him would take the snippets and turn them into stories, much harder to prove plagarisim from just a line or two. Whatever he decides it's his choice and his right to do so, we have no say in the matter nor should we, (that assumption is is more egotistical and selfish than anything HE does) To bring up something Sue said in an earlier post. Of course HE is the best and only judge as to what should and shouldn't be released. HE imagined it, HE developed it and HE typed it out into existence, it's like that fairy tale, with the Hen making the loaf of bread, HE did all the work, why should anyone else have a say in it? And yes Sue to an extent you have to reinvent the wheel when you become a writer, you can learn from those who have come before, find out what the common errors are and try to avoid them, but what you can't do is take someone else's style or method and use it, it doesn't work that way. The more I look at what she wrote the more the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and shake so I'm going to cut it of here. (Boy that wasn't very less hostile was it? Oh well) Jason P.S. *Doc* I was looking for it, didn't find it, do I want to?

Sue Luesse
- Friday, August 30, 1996 at 15:49:27 (CDT)

OK - I read the HE bit. Didn't change my mind one whit. If He doesn't want people 'diddling' with his unpublished and unfinished stuff upon his kicking the bucket - donate all the stuff to an Archive, Library, or Museum with the proviso that it be solely used for reserach purposes (and let me tell you - those schollarly types keep tighter control over such 'goodies' in their grasp than HE has EVER managed to.. 40 something years later, and the origonal Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts are STILL unpublished in the main - and the "owner", Israel, can't get 'em back either).. So there are real alternatives to simply destroying unpublished and unfinished works at death.. Which brings me to a wondering -- why doesn't HE just destroy the unwanted unpublished works NOW? Why wait, and make someone else do it for him when he's dead? And publicize the coming destruction, if it's no one's business but his??.....Oh yeah, about that "owning" thing.. I create it, I pay money for it, I own it. I take money for it, I sold it, I don't own it any more. It's called Business. It's not that hard to understand. Got nothing to do with art - unless an artist sells their art. Then it's not just art, it's property that's bought and sold, bartered and dickered over for most favorable terms, like any other item bought and sold, with both parties looking to profit in monetary terms from the transaction. HE doesn't have a leg to stand on maintaining the 'purity' of his art confers "ownership" after money has changed hands. Yeah, I know, HE completely rips the notion of 'owing' anything to readers whose money buy the books, that pay his bills. Well, just saying it, doesn't make it true. If no one bought his books or scripts, He'd be just like the rest of the 'aspiring' writers about - holding down a day job, with all his art perpetually pure and untainted by ANYONE but friends and family. He chooses to exchange his writing for money - that's business (and I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that it's a fact) - and he wouldn't get a dime from publishers or production companies if it weren't for the larger profits they expect to get from the Audience (the Market in their terms). I for one, still think HE has a crappy and egotistical attitude towards the 'little people' whose willingness to spend their money makes it all possible.. So, dismiss it as 'my unenlightened because I'm not an arteeest' perspective.. Doesn't make me wrong. I *AM* the audience, the market, and with all the rest of my shat-upon brethern will decide one hard earned dollar at a time who 'deserves' to succeed in The Business, whether they like it or not. So there. Phhhhttttp! Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Doc
The City Over the Edge of Forever, - Friday, August 30, 1996 at 00:36:17 (CDT)

Yeeeeeeesh! Miss the other board, Goldblum's return aside. What a world, what a life. For those to whom I haven't mentioned it, I was in a car wreck, last Tuesday. I've been busy ulcerating, and weeping deep-yet-manly sobs on some e-mail shoulders. Anyhoo, vis-a-vis the current topic: as a writer, if I have something that isn't ready/finished, I consider it unready/unfinished because IT DOESN'T SAY WHAT I WANT IT TO SAY. I would, therefore, hate to die in the middle of a story (which I guess I could have, Tuesday), trying to say "A", only to have it posthumously published/completed and ending up saying "Z". I would be furious. We owe a great debt of gratitude to August Derlethe (sp?) for bringing Lovecraft's work such tremendous exposure; contrariwise, Auggie was NO HPL, however much we may enjoy Derleth's tales, and his "contributions" to HPL's notes and fragments are, well, no way to say it nicely, inferior. I'd hate to see that happen to Harlan's work. Be able to read/study them? You betchum, Red Ryder. Actually complete & publish them? Deliver us, O Lord. The only exception that I would posit is that IF Harlan found a writer he admired and trusted enough to name "Literary Executor" of the unfinished work. Ala "All the Lies That Are My Life," and given the views expressed therein, I doubt that Harlan would saddle anyone with that grim & ghoulish responsibility. The only writer I've seen come near the required excellence for finishing a Passed Master's work was Bob Bloch, who polished-off Edgar A. Poe's remaining fragment (the lighthouse story). And that was long ago and far away, and Bob is no longer amongst us; heaping helping of Angry Candy. And finally, and furthermore, to Christopher Priest, again I say, "Pfui!" **Jason** have you run into a copy of Harlan's "Batman" story? Riotous (sans riot; if you know the story, you know what I mean)! Gotta go try to unclench so I can get some much-needed rest. I get to go around "town" getting estimates on the remains of my vehicle so I can file a claim with the city. Did I mention that it was a city truck? Pulled right out in front of me! Today, I get the form, with a proviso -- "Please be advised the City of Denison may not be responsible for your property damage since governmental functions of the City, which include sewer and water functions of the City, are provided with immunity under specific circumstances." I smell a loophole; some kind of hole, I thought it was "loop." **SOMEbody** sure as hell is responsible, and my car is gonna get fixed or replaced with a suitable substitute. These people don't realize -- I TAKE LESSONS FROM HARLAN!!! I may be back later with an address for where to send the bricks. Adieu, mez amis. Love Doc

Jason <Be Afraid... Be very afraid>
- Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 18:12:08 (CDT)

I'm baaaack. (two movie clich�s in under thirty seconds, I gotta start reading again.) Actually I have been reading, spent my weekend at the large comic convention this weekend. Filled up most of the slots in my Sandman collection. (Just to point out how good this series is. I'm collecting the original issues, despite the series being reprintend in individual issues and in collected trade paperbacks both options are cheaper then how I'm doing it.) I also bought some comics which HE was supposed to have a hand in. Found HE's Chocolate Alphabet, good funny stuff. For the person who might have inquired about the price a while ago, (don't accurately remember, don't have time to search) It cost me $7.50 talked down from $10 caution prices may vary. Of the Marvel Stuff, two were okay, the rest were dissapointing, because what they were is some typist (note the term) Took the plots of HE's stories and try to shoehorn Marvel superheroes into the story, all the while creating plot holes and errors. One story, The Brute that shouted Love at the Heart of the Atom, was just awful, the typist kept putting in these awkward sentences just so he could 'sneak' in the titles to other HE stories. Before people attack me with warm vomit, yelling 'The Beast....' is a wonderful award winning story, I would like to point out that I am not criticizing Beast... I am criticizing 'The Brute' which was apparently based on 'Beast' (don't know haven't read it, can't wait for it to come out in Edgeworks) Brute was not written by Ellison it was based on an idea by him according to the credits, and it was just generally bad. Which just goes to show that people shouldn't really mess around with other people's work, and speaking of that... (Wow! Most excellent segue dude!) the topic at hand I wouldn't want to read any collabarations of HE's work unless it was done with his full input, ala Partners in Wonder. Dave Sim self publishes Cerebus a comic book about an aardvark that he writes and draws, the series will last 300 issues ending with the death of the character, (he's at about issue 210 right now). He has said that if he dies before the series is finished, no-one will continue it. In fact, and I think this is great, that if he dies partway through drawing an issue, what they will do is print everything he's done for that issue, and leave the rest blank. His reasoning is, and I don't believe he's completely serious; that the last page done for this book before he died is the point where God said "All right I think we've had just about enough of that" and stops him. So when the book gets published, comic creators can look at that last page and know not to do that in their own book. I wouldn't mind seeing the same sort of thing, with HE's work, incomplete and unedited, just as it was before he shuffled off the mortal coil. HE might not like that idea, in fact he might bloddy hate it and that's okay. I'm just saying what I'd like to see as someone who enjoys his work, selfish as the wish may be, and it is HIS work, his ideas, his voice, his property, he can translate it form English to Esperanto or Enochian, and publish it like that, it's his right. As 'deadloss' goes it reminds me of my essays in te ninth grade when I wasn't doing any real research on the subject and I did a lot of bullsh!tting and grasping at straws. It's about as convincing as O.J.'s alibi (yes it does mena that some gullible peons will believe it, more's the pity.) Jason p.s. Goldblum and I returned on the same day Coincidence or Connection?

Rick Wyatt <webmaster@harlanellison.com>
- Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 18:00:54 (CDT)

Okay, gang. You are the luckiest bunch of human beings on the face of the planet. You see, I didn't archive the board because I was going to have the webmaster do just that. Unfortunately due to lack of sleep and caffeine he forgot and nuked it all. *LUCKILY*, I get home to find that the locked-up Netscape session I left this morning trying to load the board had actually come unlocked and LOADED THE BOARD! So I saved it off (the last post I had was Tuesday around midnight), and you can see it on the "Contributions" section above. Enjoy! *ALSO*: I will be on vacation August 30th through September 16th. Play nice while I'm gone, I'll be checking on you!

keegan again
- Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 15:53:58 (CDT)

oops! You should click on "The Words of Harlan Ellison" on the homepage to find HE's opinions about the issue of his absolute control over his work.

keegan
- Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 15:45:52 (CDT)

Quick note before I go back to making jazz: HE's opinions about his rights to deal with his work in whatever way he chooses post mortem are right here in Webderland if you click on "Harlan's Words" on the homepage. Yes, I agree that the audience could perceive it as egotism and selfishness, but what any artist gives to us is a GIFT despite the fact that we usually have to pay for it. I believe an artist has the right to choose what it is they put up for public "consumption". Yes, maybe you could view it as selfish and egotistical, and yes, the deceased isn't going to care when they're gone, but the survivors of the deceased DO care about that person's wishes and would probably want to see them carried out. I do not want to see anybody "edit" or "complete" anything that HE or any author did not wish me to see. I think that stuff is personal (as opposed to public) and should be protected in whatever way the artist sees fit. Yep, it's a bummer for "audiences", but what're ya gonna do? We should just be thankful and appreciative for what we get, IMO.

Sue Luesse <jaluesse@htonline.com>
He's ALIVE! He's ALIVE!!, Rick and Scott have DONE IT!! - Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 14:05:12 (CDT)

Back to the happy hum of bumble-bee Boards and Goldblum Stare.. Can it be long before we once again "Publish & Be Damned"?? I'm gonna make a stab at NOT having a single space between things. **KEEGAN** Good ta hear from ya! And NO! NO! NO! If an artist wants to eradicate their work before anyone knows it's there - Well, in practical terms, how's anyone gonna stop 'em? But to have unfinished (as in Unfinished Symphony) or unpublicized work destroyed after their death is the worst kind of egotism and selfishness.. Like - is it gonna make a damn bit of difference to THEM...AFTER they're dead??? I firmly believe art of any variety only achieves it's purpose when it speaks to people (who aren't the artist that created it), and THE AUDIENCE has just as much to say about that as the creator. It's a symbiosis where artist and audience both contribute to the maintenance of art. I haven't read the alt.fan thing you referred to yet, so I don't know what HE's rationale is. But I don't buy that HE is the only and best judge of which of his works will speak to people, so he should destroy anything he determines aren't art - without bothering to see if it is or not by LETTING PEOPLE read it to see if it DOES or DOESN'T communicate to them.. Or worse - get rid of any evidence that HE had to work to create and developed his own unique process, so no one else will have the benefit of a proven method.. How does that advance the art of writing? Everyone has to re-invent the wheel to get themselves to market (which they have to re-invent every generation?).. I gotta give that a thumbs down.... Kinda busy, so I'll go do those boring things I do, and maybe have more time for FUN stuff later.. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Rick
- Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 14:03:59 (CDT)

Due to unforeseen circumstances, the old board was lost. I'm looking into backups, unfortunately for some reason Netscape has been gagging on the board so I haven't personally archived it. I will be posting Harlan's comments in a new "Ask Unca Harlan" column on the web site when I get back from vacation Sept 16th. Sorry for the lost messages, I hope to recover and archive them...

keegan
- Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 13:23:03 (CDT)

Why, Goldblum! You're back! How pleasant! What happened to the other board (just out of curiosity)? Will those comments be archived? I think I missed some. Anybody in Webderland have any opinions about the current discussion on alt.fan.harlan-ellison as to whether HE (or any other great writer for that matter) has the right to stipulate that unfinished works be destroyed after the author's death? Some folks think it's a horrible travesty and others believe that artistic output which remains unpublished is solely the artist's domain and if s/he decides to destroy it, so be it. I'm of the latter opinion. I don't want my early tapes and my bad tapes made available to the public EVER. They embarrass me. Maybe somebody COULD learn something from them (the primary reason folks don't want to see HE destroy unfinished or unpolished work) but I say that you can learn as much from work the artist has willingly released. While I appreciate those who DO leave behind gems in the rough, I can also appreciate the reluctance of others who do not wish to leave their trials and errors behind. What do you think? Maybe, if we're lucky, Rick will post what HARLAN had to say about this (he posted it on usenet and believe me, he had a LOT to say). Anyway, just trying to start a conversation. Miss you guys!

Scott
- Thursday, August 29, 1996 at 12:06:59 (CDT)

Testing...

Sorry, but that's it!

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