NAMIRRAN: regarding Simmons (sort of Ellison related, since Harlan helped
kick-start his career), you can find a lot more information at the following
site: www.erinyes.org/simmons/
Out here, DTS.
Alejandro - I'm running in the opposite vein - I've been deeply immersed
in Miles lately, and haven't ventured into the Latin Jazz scene nearly as much
as I should (was listening to Ellington myself this morning - nothing gets the
day rolling like a cup of joe and a little "Stompy Jones") - but I'll be checking
out some of your referenced artists in weeks to come. Syzygy - it's been a while
since I've delved into Dick's body of work, but both "The Man In The High Castle"
and "Martian Time-Slip" come highly recommended (I recall no major trauma resulting
from the former, haven't read the latter). Barney - I made the mistake of stopping
out at alt.fan.ellison a few days back - talk about your caves infested with
the Dark Side of the Force...and I thought reading "Xenogenesis" made me feel
ill. And thanks, along with thanks to Peter, for the reading suggestions. Dancing
Pope - I'm not sure, but I think the golden rule is "Do unto others as you'd
have them do unto you", not "Do as I say, and not as I do." Given the phonetic
similarities, I can see where you might have been confused... Peg - All the
bravado and vocabulary in the world seldom accomplishes what a simple "Just
stop it" will. Or, as we say in my tribe, "Well said".
Namirran: Please DO let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Peg: Thanks for the heartfelt rebuttle. I don't mean to be a pain in the
ass . . . really, I don't. :) From here on in I'll try to temper myself and
stick to subjects less nebulous as "what is art", et cetera. Also, I will stop
with the belligerent slander-antics. There is only so much sticks-and-stones
banter people care to listen to. And I don't want to drive people away from
a board that, surprisingly, I seem to have all but 'hijacked' (as described
in an earlier post.) Anyway, this is Syzygy Namirran 'signing off' (for the
time being anyway . . . )
With luck, you won't even notice I'm lurking.
Syzygy Namirran
*Barney* - *ring ring ring ring ring ring ring * you win the big prize.
But I'm afraid there wasn't much more to our conversation than he had been a
drilling hand on an oil rig down in Texas. He said it was one of the worst jobs
he'd ever had, got paid next to nothin, would be covered in mud by the end of
the day. I let him know that up here on the slope drilling folks are paid a
lot more and treated a lot better than what he went through. It's less dangerous
now than then, though there will always be elements of danger and risk when
you poke a hole into a piece of earth under an enormous amount of pressure.
*??????* - I don't know, I can't remember, it was too many posts ago. Just wanted
to say that I don't mind when people explain what they meant by their literary
critiques. Frankly I don't always get it the first time around and it helps
when it's put into language little folks like me can unnastan.
Ta,
Peg
Good grief, enough already!! You know, I really like reading this board.
People have lots to contribute of a variety of topics. And I even enjoy the
differing opinions on the quality and content of HE's work. After all (as my
boss likes to say) wouldn't it suck if we were all the same.
I'm not a critic, I ain't in-ta-lex-u-el, I couldn't string a sentence together
with half the bravado and vocabulary as most of the regular posters here. But
I've had it. I don't *CARE* anymore who's right, who's wrong, who's moronic,
who's over-educated, who's genuine, who's pretending, who's pissed off -OR-
on. Just stop it. If we're a mere shadow of what goes on over at alt.HE then
I'm never going there. If you want to keep flinging pseudo intellectual insults
please just do it on email and SPARE me, SPARE the board, SPARE the lurkers.
It has gone on LONG ENOUGH.
*KIDS* - as my parents used to tell me - I don't care who started it or whose
fault it is. Off to your rooms, all of you, and don't come out till you can
behave yourselves. Or at least till reality resumes here.
I know this ain't an official request from the web deity hereabouts, so you
don't have to do anything. But truly, it's a plea. I'd hate to end my visits
here because I have to wade through 4 crappy (no matter how nice and big the
words are and how well they flow together) posts to read one with anything to
say. But I got mo betta things to do with my time, and as much as this is the
best place I've been for HE info and discussion, I can only take so much wasted
e-space.
DTS: Thanks for the info! I have been wondering what happened to Nighttown.
Also, I hadn't realised that a review of The Crook Factory was available on
the internet. I can't wait to see the Simmons profile.
Syzygy Namirran
Ha! Just the kind of response I'd expect from the gut-spilling Aleph we
all know and love: a masterful augmentation of the obvious, put forth with the
cunning swagger and lisping speech only the mother of a cobra could find endearing.
Very well then. Let's bring an end to this wildly childish roller coaster, the
track of which seems to always bend inward and back upon itself, and avoid the
next occurance of fait a compli. After all, this ride, despite its many twists
and turns, is quite boring, as we all recognize. I would be happy, dear Pope
(nice moniker, by the way) to spare you that much grief. Because, as you know,
you absurd clown, I'm sure you really care about this board and its patrons
(ha!). What a perfect illusion of Civic Duty. Even Machiavelli would be proud.
::: clap clap clap :::
You see Pope, even us strutting and fretting poor players can properly appreciate
your gifts, mainly because we never mistake lack of talent for genius, unlike
the vast majority. So, go ahead and pitch feed to your pigeons. It makes for
a wonderful stage performance ... if only because I know that I'm the one who's
pulling your strings.
Syzygy Namirran.
NAMIRRAN: T.E.D. KlEIN's NIGHTTOWN was listed as indefinitely delayed with
the publisher in '96. He does have a short story (or maybe a novellete) appearing
in the forthcoming anthology, 999, to be published by Avon in September (and
in a limited, more costly, version in June). Others appearing in the anthology
(for those interested) will be S. KIng, William Peter Blatty, Joe Lansdale,
Gene Wolfe, Joyce Carol Oates and a whole slew of other writers that I can't
(unfortunately) recall at the moment. Also, Namirran, you asked in an earlier
post about the new Dan Simmons book, THE CROOK FACTORY, and if anyone had read
it. See the review at the following address: (www.denverpost.com/books/book522.htm)
On Feb. 28th, there should be a short profile of Simmons at: (www.denverpost.com/books/books.htm)
Out here, DTS.
Perhaps, Syzygy, you should ride the bleak morass of your ego off to a
website concerned with T.E.D. Klein's work, scuttle through the door, alienate
the good-hearted posters and lurkers with that vague, pseudo-intellectual double-babble
that flows freely from the wellspring of your insecurities, and then try to
ask a civil question of the people you've thrown down the gauntlet of bad tidings
before. Perhaps your holier than thou performance for the sake of notoriety
will find appreciation there. Trouble these good people no longer with your
petulance. And good people? Grace him no longer with attention. It only feeds
the beast. He is a sound and a fury truly signifying nothing, and he is best
left to wither on the vine.
Any fans of horror/dark fantasy fiction out there know what happened to
the publication of Nighttown, by T.E.D. Klein?
Amazon.com lists the book as out of print, although (purportedly) it was published
in 1996 [?]
Anyone know what happened to Klein's long-awaited new novel?
Syzygy Namirran
four hours of sleep later... its good. I finished it, and its good. I'm
not sure how much is autobiographical or how much is embellished, but it is
at least good (and believe me, if scenes were't embellished, then I'm going
to be ever so, ever so thankful that my parents moved us out of Oakland when
I was born. Oakland, land that I hate, land that I fear.
---Peter (Was that really four hours sleep? and me with a quiz this morning.)
Well, if we're recommending books. I'd like to suggest one that I started
reading about an hour and a half ago. "East Bay Grease" by Eric Miles Williamson.
It is an extremely well written account of growing up in Oakland, California
(where I was born) during the sixties and seventies. Now I'm not just recommending
this because the author is my writing professor, it really is good. It takes
a lot to impress me. So far, he has. I'll let everyone know if I still feel
the same when I finish. I'll definitely finish it tonight. And if I'm eventually
disappointed? Well, I'll be sure to let him know before class tomorrow.
---Peter
*** Hey Everybody! *** That's to be read in the voice of Doctor Nick from
the Simpsons in case I never clarified that. *** Doc *** Syzygy isn't a troll.
REAL trolls are currently infesting alt.fan.ellison to such a degree that if
I were Neil Bridges I'd want to kill myself (or perhaps others). The atmosphere
[fear] in here be posotively rarefied. /// 2 year old aside - I now know why
DOC asked me if I was familiar with Firesign Theatre as I recently was at a
party where somebody recited to me the Barney references from "We're All Bozos
On This Bus". Damn! I'm huge - I'm ubiquitous! *** Keegan *** Jazz... I love
this thread but can't contribute as I'm still stuck on old Dizzy - Miles - Oscar
Peterson - Be-Bop/Re-Bop Quartet Quintet stuff and then I skip over to Diamanda
Galais which I cannot recommend with a clear conscience. But I do take notes.
*** Peggy*** 6 month old aside - The unanswered answer to one of your questions
was oil wildcatter driller or somesuch. If Harlan talked to you about this stint
in his life I'd very much like to hear about it.
***Alejandro!!!*** Welcome! [belated] I have a friend in Athens [Alexandros
Diamandidis] who also reads Ellison.Webderland is now the official hub of an
official Granfaloon! See Vonnegut for details. Regarding Borges, I just ran
across a copy of "There Is No Borges" which is either a really wonderful novel
or a very long insiders joke depending on your blood sugar count and which side
of the bed you got out of. I reproduce a review of it in it's entirety just
to piss Rick off...
Reviews
From Kirkus Reviews , May 1, 1993
Quirky flights of fantasy and the literary imagination--in which Borges is alternately
a figure of substance and a fabrication--occupy this surreal tale of a disenchanted
academic on a lecture tour of the Far East, from German novelist K”pf in his
US debut. Books are the only reality for the professor, whose area of specialization
is ``Lusitanics,'' which he succinctly describes as ``the science of loss.''
He measures all that exists by its superior formulation in literature, and has
a special affinity for the works of Borges, Cervantes, and Conrad--to such a
degree that his own travels evoke comparisons with those of Don Quixote or Conrad's
Almayer. An airborne discussion with an Argentinean traveler and fellow admirer
of Borges, who believes that the writer was actually an impersonation, the work
of a talented actor, fails to be greatly disturbed when the plane loses engine
power and begins a rapid descent. That adventure safely concluded, other speculations
follow in which Cervantes and Shakespeare are declared one and the same person,
and the narrator's family is analyzed for character flaws, while the professor
himself is unable to decide whether he should exist in first- or third-person
in his narrative. The teeming backdrop of the Portuguese colony of Macao adds
to the m‚lange of impressions, contributing to the sensory overload of the real
and the speculative that culminates in a series of dreamlike encounters with
Borges--or his doppelg„nger--in a dimly lit hotel corridor, as each man attempts
to use the toilet undisturbed. A literary curiosity: intricate enough to be
challenging, but ultimately too full of itself to sustain more than an academic
interest. -- Copyright ©1993, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.
Joe Bob Dannelke sez checkitout
[kisses and brickbats - which you may divvy up amongst yourselves...]
Doc: I have three words you, you putative defender of 'all things righteous':
get a grip. Ha!
Hmmm . . . on second thought, now that I think about it, why don't you just
keep waxing bilious. After all, I can always use a good laugh. And you can rest
assured that your amateurish metaphors and hot air meant as moxy aren't wasted
on me. It's always nice to see a person defer to childish wit, especially when
it's at the expense of their own sagacity.
Bill: Thanks for the response. All true. All true.
Peter: For what it's worth to you: good luck with the story. Although we may
disagree on a few things, I'm always happy to support anyone who wrestles with
that elusive she-manx, the Muse.
Alejandro: I've been listening to Marsalis' "Death of Jazz" thanks to you. :)
Hmmm. . . did anyone mention Chick Corea?
Finder: I think I'm starting the PKD binge this weekend. Any suggestions?
Syzygy Namirran, who is off to interview the eminent Mr. Campbell tomorrow.
"... she didn't hold that you were lying, on the contrary she said that you
were childishly open, but your character was so different from ours, she said,
that even when you spoke frankly, it was bound to be difficult for us to believe
you ..."
~~~ Franz Kafka, from The Castle, the thirteenth chapter (Frieda)
...and may I please be blessed with the power to construct coherent sentences...
uh. thank goodness its only a first draft.
---Peter
Hey Doc, we can't forget the nameless casualties who just haven't posted
for fear of being hit by shrapnel. So long as trolls hide under their bridges,
people will refuse to cross rivers. (or so long as I extend cheesy metaphors,
people will refuse to take me seriously)
Who was it that said "nobody likes a bully, least of all himself?" If no one
takes credit, I will!
May peace reign over Webderland! (I'm close to completing my first draft for
a story I've been working on for a week or so. I'm happy.)
---Peter
I've been hoping the virtual air would clear, but jeez it's taken so long,
and there were casualties. Grrr.
"I may not know art, but I know what I like."
-- John Cleese to Michaelangelo
And, Sissy Nannybooboo, I do not like you. You are to Webderland what the brown
acid was to Woodstock. You are a pompous fraud, apparently a 14 yr. old channeling
the spirit of H.P. Lovecraft (and I mean no offense to 14-yr.-olds). Yes, it
is my place to invite you to get lost. This is my web-home, graciously hosted
by Rick Wyatt, and these are my friends. I will not stand for your pompous,
alienating tactics. Bill D. and Wylie are mighty fine people. They, as well
as Sue luesse and a number of other regulars, are very like family to me, in
so many ways. You will *NOT* bully them off the board. I have had enough --
a surfeit of your self-indulgent, egomaniacal, self-justifying behavior, mixed
liberally with an unconvincing "Uriah Heap" manner. In know uncertain terms,
fuck off. If Wylie goes, *I* go.
K.C. Locke (who has a real name, but is mostly known to his chums as "Doc."
Furthermore, he knows who his chums are. And who they aren't.)
There's an interview w/HE & JMS in 3/99 issue of B5 Magazine. They discuss
working together and end of the show. Nothing much new, but for you completists...
Charlie
Finder: Thanks for the tip. I am afraid I am so caught up in this Latin
groove that I haven't yet ventured much outside of the realm except for the
occasional Wynton Marsalis, Roy Hargrove or Duke Ellington. But slowly, slowly
I swear I will play catch up. Gang, thanks all for reminding me of the Eric
Dolphy reference. I had forgotten all about it. Jeez, what a shitty thing memory
is. I just reread Stalking the Nightmare last year.
It is said that recognizing one's mistakes and reevaluating works (and words)
over time is a critic's true virtue. Well, kids, I am afraid that I overgeneralized
a bit on my opinions re Gonzalo Rubalcaba. Although it is quite true that in
his live presentations and in his last three albums, Gonzalo has opted for an
Olympic, abstract style (particularly his collaboration with Joe Lovano, "Flying
Colors" which is not exactly my cup of tea), the man can swing whenever he feels
the impulse to do so. Check out his solos in Ron Carter's "Mr. Bow Tie" or in
Charlie Haden's "The Montreal Tapes". (Also, most of his early recordings on
the official Cuban government-financed label Egrem which are available through
the German import Messidor.) "To Diz" (his tribute to Dizzy Gillespie) and "Live
at Mt. Fuji" (where he performs alongside Jack DeJohnette and John Pattituci)
are highly recommended.
S. NAMIRRAN: Sorry to reply so late on this topic which is probably gone
by now, but I've been off the boards for a while. Re: my first response to you:
it was exactly on the same level as your original post. Inept metaphors? So
when you say "I sometimes have the feeling that Ellison's 'audience' has the
collective I.Q. of a carrot" this was an example of literary genius? My initial
response was exactly in the timbre of your comments. And come on, surely you
must know that we capitalize HE for the same reason we do IBM--not because we
want to deify either, but simply to save keystrokes. So again, with your use
of "HIS" in your message, you were either being dumb or playing dumb, both of
which justified the tone of my less-than-high-minded riposte. I am capable,
willing and eager to converse at an intelligent level about HE and his works...when
there's something intelligent to respond to. -- Billy D.
You know that you've done enough writing for the day when the word "would"
starts to look funny.
---Peter
Keegan - sweet! Guest conductor? Those are some lucky kids. :-)
Finder - well, I did say it was my first exposure to comic-type things (in the
adult format, anyway - I did read the old comics as a kid, and don't remember
much about them).. I kind of assumed that if Ellison's name was on it, it would
be good quality whatever it was. I liked the artwork (and have to agree the
bits like the Intro's in his books, with him in them, were a stitch). I liked
the stories. And would have to say the overall work was of good quality. My
comment wasn't so much about Dream Corridor, as it was about comic book format
in general not being my cup of tea - I just couldn't make that adjustment from
print to multi-media. Kept feeling I had missed something if I didn't look at
the illustrations - and then feeling I had lost the flow of the story when I
did.. *shrug*
Thanks to both of you for reminding me of 'Quiet Lies The Locust Tells'. I re-read
it, too. A haunting work.. Well, that's what I tell everyone - sounds so much
nicer than admitting I don't particularly remember everything in detail..
Alejandro - WOW! You lurked for a year and a half?? I can see you research things
thoroughly.. ;-)
DTS - That experience you had with your editor is chilling. I can see why it
left you speechless. I guess there are bad apples in every barrel - and you
ran into one at the bottom sitting in it's own oozing slime. :-( I'm not sure
I could work for someone like that. I give you credit..
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
"Dear Brett"
"I'm going back to Mike." I could feel her crying as I held her close. "He's
so damned nice and he's so awful. He's my sort of thing."
She would not look up. I stroked her hair. I could feel her shaking.
"I won't be one of those bitches," she said. "But, oh, Jake, please let's never
talk about it."
We left the Hotel Montana. The woman who ran the hotel would not let me pay
the bill. The bill had been paid.
"Oh, well. Let it go," Brett said. "It doesn't matter now."
~~~ Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises
"Oh, Jake," Brett said, "we could have had such a damned good time together."
Ahead was a mounted policeman in khaki directing traffic. He raised his baton.
The car slowed suddenly pressing Brett against me.
"Yes," I said. "Isn't it pretty to think so?"
-- E. Hemingway
"So--with the caution born of desperateness, he entered the gray quiet
place with the tombstones one night, located freshly dug but unoccupied graves
and added to their six foot depth yet another foot. It was not noticeable to
anyone who was not looking for such a discrepancy."
~~~ Charles Beaumont, "Free Dirt"
Ahhhh. I read it again finder and it was the locust who tells the quiet
lies, not "HE himself" who remembered Dolphy. Beautiful and magical.
Finder: thanks, man! You're alreet! Gonna read it before hittin' the road
to Dreamsville. With love, I'm gone....
KEEGAN - You'll smoke, you'll swing, you'll conduct like a pro. Go get
'em! And by way of the assist, the Eric Dolphy reference is in the introduction
to Stalking the Nightmare, "Quiet Lies The Locust Tells"...an uncommon introduction
when compared to some of HE's others. --Finder
Finder-I dig all the music you listed. As for performances, February 26
and 27 I am conducting the Niagra County All-County Swing Choir. I'm not not
singing,though. Just countin' off tempos, wavin' my arms and educatin' kids
about tradition. It's my first guest conductor gig. I hope I serve well.
Hi, Alejandro! Yeah, Chucho is something else! I don't have any CD's with
him (which, you're right, I should) but I heard him on National Public Radio
and he was killin'! I enjoy Cuban music. It's so deep and different from what
I grew up with. I've been listening to Dizzy Gillespie's big band with Chano
Pozo, lately which I know is a hybrid. Guess it's time for me to hip myself
to something more modern and authentic.
I also love Gloria Estefan who is, IMO, truly one of the most talented popular
singers today. She is a good singer and seems to be a warm person with determination
and soul. MI TIERRA is a classic, beautiful disc, IMO. The jazz community is
taking notice of her fine work.
I'm glad to see relations between the US and Cuba thawing. I'd like to go there
and learn.
Trying to stay somewhat in the groove of the venue, instead of taking it completely
outside, does anybody remember in what essay Harlan wrote about finally understanding
what Eric Dolphy was about? In the essay, Harlan admitted that he first reacted
to Dolphy's music as what the musicians call "a mouldy fig". You know, he heard
it as some noise that was certainly NOT jazz. I can't put my finger on it right
now, and I really want to re-read it. Can anybody help? Something about the
song the locust sang or something the locust knew or did or......my brain is
addled. I just can't remember, and it bugs me because it was important to me
at the time and now, it seems important to me again.
Thanks, y'all. Life's short. Swing hard.
Gang:
Where have I been hiding? Well, I have been a shameless readers of all your
postings for about a year and a half now, ever since my paper decided to subscribe
to Netscape. I spend as much time lurking and websurfing as I do writing and
coordinating interviews and attending film screenings and the such for the arts
and entertainment section during my office hours. My wife and I refuse to buy
a PC or a Mac and we even refuse to subscribe the 'Net at home. Too many books,
too many videotapes, too many magazines and CDs to plow through to add one more
information-oriented device in the household. (One quick confession: I do most
of my writing at night at home. There are not as many distractions there.)
Since I am new to the bb, let me take this opportunity to share a couple of
things with you, gang. I am the arts and entertainment reporter for Exito! newspaper,
the Chicago Tribune's Spanish-language weekly (it being a small publication,
we have a very small editorial staff), covering just about everything (well,
except for contemporary art and the such. I can only know so much.) Once in
a blue moon the Tribune will commission a concert review and once in a blue
moon they will also appear on the Trib's website.
I've been reading Harlan since I was 15. I actually got introduced to his work
via Asimov's Hugo Winners anthologies. (A quick aside: you can't find much good
science-fiction in Puerto Rico. And since I had a paper route at that age and
well into my senior year in high school, used all of my earnings to subscribe
to at least five book clubs in the United States including the Science-Fiction
Book Club. That's how I got my Harlan fix. The almost daily arrival of a new
box-full of books would drive my mother bonkers. But let me tell you, my arrival
to the States almost 17 years ago to attend Carleton College in Northfield coincided
with Ace paperback's launching of Harlan's long out-of-print books…and I felt
I was in heaven.) Well, that's it for now. I am glad to see some jazz aficionados
among you. Now that the U.S. is finally opening the doors to some Cuban musicians,
I hope to share with you some of the really funky stuff out there. (And considering
how much Harlan seems to love guava paste, a true Cuban delicacy, what better
place to talk about Cuban music than in this website?)
TO ALL YOU GUYS: Picking up on the topic of elitism regarding literature
(I know it was a few posts ago, but it's still fairly fresh), I gotta share
this with you folks cause you'll appreciate it. I do some regular "gigs" with
a couple handfuls of newspapers in and around the midwest, and since I freelance,
I usually get to pick what I'm gonna review. That way (says my brain), I can
use the limited newspaper space I'm given to cover books I like and basically
recommend some good reading to anyone who is "listening." (Although constructive
criticism of a bad book is valuable, in today's world of "we don't have enough
space" newspaper book coverage, and considering there are fewer and fewer people
actually picking up a book and reading it, I figure my time is best spent encouraging
folks to pick up a good read). Anyway, a couple of the papers I write for had
some editorial changes, and at one of them I just spoke to my new editor and
the subject of Stephen King's new, surprise, novel (THE GIRL WHO LOVED TOM GORDON,
slated for April) came up. Though I cover mostly thrillers and mystery for her
paper, I told her that I was on the list to get an early copy of this new King
book and that it sounded more like mainstream than genre fiction. She told me
that maybe we should cover it, because she had noticed too many reviews were
sounding "nicey-nice," and that the book section could use a few scathing reviews
to mix things up. I told her I hadn't yet read the new King book, so I couldn't
say whether it was bad or not. She said (voice overflowing with glee)"It probably
will be since it isn't his usual suspense or horror." I didn't just say anything,
just chuckled politely, and waited for her to take a hint. She did, and we moved
on. And I'll still cover thrillers and mysteries for her that I think are worth
the reader's time and money, but...somewhere out there (or in her offices) is
a person just waiting to tear into a book because they need more scathing reviews...or
because they've already decided that the writer (or genre) isn't worthy of serious
consideration. What makes it doubly worse is that someone decided she was fit
to be the "Book Editor" at this paper. I've always thought a love of all sorts
of books and writers should be a requirement for such a position. (Out of the
other nine editors I work with, eight of them seem to espouse the same beliefs,
so I'm not alone in that thinking).
Anyway, just thought I'd share that with you guys, since it sort of related
to a recent topic (I gotta tell ya, when she suggested reviewing King's book
in a bad light, BEFORE I'D EVEN READ IT, I actually found myself speechless
for the first time in a long time). Out here, DTS.
KEEGAN - I really dig your metaphorical prowess. I'm always amazed at how
jazz conversation has as distinct a style as the music. As an aside, got any
gigs happening the weekend of the 27th? I'm making the Rochester run, and any
potential side-trip for jazz in the Empire State is a worthy one. SUE - I found
with Dream Corridor that while the comic presentation of HE's stories was okay,
I really enjoyed the framing sequences - whether because of the patented HE
narration, or the fact that the artists had a great deal of fun with the comic
version of the man... ALEJANDRO - Jazz is a fine topic to jam on. There seem
to be quite a few enthusiasts here. Right now, I'm in my second Miles Davis
phase, now that his second quintet's catalog has been upgraded by Columbia (the
current groove is "E.S.P."), with side dishes of J. J. Johnson, Lee Morgan and
Diana Krall (whose next release, sometime late spring, I wait impatiently for
- she has a honey of a voice, and her trio can really cook)... And to harken
back to a previous post of yours, I felt "Life Is Beautiful" was poignant and
worthy of so much more patronage that it will get - fortunately, there has been
a slow but perceptible shift over the last few years towards a more mainstream
mindset where foreign language film is concerned (a large part of which is owed
to the widespread acceptance and screening of "Il Postino" in traditionally
'mainstream' locales). American filmmakers and audiences alike would learn so
much if they'd just open up to other cinemas. I'm lucky to live in the DC area
- the American Film Institute often screens films that don't even get a US release
(such as Kurosawa's final (?) film, "Madadayo"). GARY - I wouldn't have thought
Lyle Lovett was prone to a jazzy sound either, but he and his Large Band more
than hold their own...so Tom Waits may not be so dramatic a stretch. And I haven't
read "The Fountainhead", but I did make it all the way through "Atlas Shrugged"
- from what I've been told, the themes are similar. Her philosophies aside,
she paints a rather chilling future that sometimes seems all too possible. WYLIE
- Hurry back soon. Your voice and insight lend themselves well to this mix.
ALL - Speaking of the AFI, they've been screening the international version
of "Brazil" this week (the 142 minute version, not the hobbled, shambling mess
Universal turned loose back in the day) - a treat I indulged in last night.
In a word, fascinating. Shows this Saturday and Sunday if you're in the neighborhood.
Wish the AFI had a classier theatre than the room they're in at the Kennedy
Center, though - cinder block walls just aren't aesthetically pleasing in the
least. -- Finder
Gotta return to Peter’s comment from ages and ages and two days ago –“It
is sad that people have turned to our microwaved fastfood popcorn culture and
have declared it art in place of works that are good and meaningful.” While
I don’t go into her Objectivist philosophy, has anyone read _The Fountainhead_
by Ayn Rand? The frightening character Ellsworth Toohey would applaud politely
at this and approve, rather than consider it sad. I call him frightening because
he was so good at promoting this dumbing-down.
And jazz? Keep it coming. I am a musician myself, and I’ve recently and abruptly
realized that I’ve been creeping into the jazz world for years. So I’m trying
to catch up on traditional greats, and I’m finding it awfully hard to define
jazz. Is Milt Jackson jazz? Yes. Mingus? Yes. John Zorn? I say yes. Astor Piazzola?
I think so. The band I play with? Sometimes. One of my favorite artists, Tom
Waits? Hmmm… And then I get back to the truth - that the separation and fencing-off
of genres is an awfully artificial and limiting thing. And I stop wondering
too hard about definitions.
**KEEGAN** !! Good to see ya! Still in the groove - and swinging, too..
:-) And still working on the thesis?? eeuuuwww.. Hope it doesn't take much longer..
What a waste of superb performance time.. ;-)
Hiya Maggie! Nice to see you back. I've been missing all the regulars.. *sigh*
Missed the fun you always bring to the conversations..
And, HEY! Alejandro, where have you been hiding all this time? Welcome! Welcome!
Really enjoyed your posts. Guess I must be naturally muddled - I understood
them - even the one you appologized for.. ;-) I can really get behind the dilemna
of a professional art critic (any form of art).. Always thought it must be the
pits to fend off the pressures of the bizzschmucks, acedemics, and the public
coming at ya from all directions to give an honest reaction that is fair to
the work, and of service to the readers. There's just too darn many folks trying
to decide for everyone what everything "should" be, with hidden agenda's. I
can't even sort out who all the players are, let alone what their agenda's are,
or if they are 'good' or 'bad'.. I'm not even sure there is even a scorecard..
I do know that the critics and reveiwers I respect (and read at all) are the
ones that wrestle with those demons, rather than deny they exist. I'll be looking
for your by-line now (hee hee - and what newspaper am I buying to look for it?
DOH!)
Thanks for sharing Jazz names that are new to me. Have to take a listen (except
for the one noted as having gone Olympic). Sorry I don't have much to contribute
on a Jazz thread (I just lurk, collect the names, and listen), but don't feel
that Jazz is forbidden on this board. There have been some really great Jazz
(and other forms of music) threads before, that resulted in new "finds" for
me, and hours of listening pleasure (Todd - where are you?). That's one of things
I really like about this BBoard - always turning me on to really great stuff
I would have missed otherwise.
*ALL* Well, I finally read Strange Kadish (well worth the read) - and had my
first exposure to Dream Corridors. I don't think I'm the comic book type - didn't
like having to read "around" the pictures.. that didn't look the way my imagination
thought they should.. hee hee.. The stories were good, though.. Good enough
I kept reading. :-)
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe - and blow off SN
Oops, that's 1999. My fingers are rather clumsy today.
I don't know...I kinda like Narriman. He/she/it brings a new level of stupiditty
to the bb. Hey Narriman are you male of female? If you're so smart why are you
wasting time bugging us?
Like keegan I too have not read the bb in detail since Syzygy has up and
hijacked it. Syzygy's rants are tiresome, boring and yeah, a bonafide drag.
Let us all respond from now on with stone cold silence. Maybe then Syzygy will
go away to haunt some other bb.
Wow, Keegan! Loved your jazz comparisons. Damn, it all of a sudden brought
to mind so many Cuban jazz artists who have recently opted for an Olympic style
of playing and have forgotten how to swing (can you say Gonzalo Rubalcaba?)
(If you folks haven't heard any Cuban jazz lately I strongly urge you buy a
copy of Chucho Valdes' "Bele bele en La Habana". It's amazing the things that
man can do to a piano with only two hands.)
Time for an aside: okay, gang, let's stop beating around the bush. I can see
our discussion with Syzygy is headed nowhere. I propose that, now that Keegan
has so well addressed the issues in jazzistic terms, we start a jam session
here and talk about…what else? Jazz. It's not a matter of avoiding the discussion.
It's a matter of putting an abrupt end to it. It is, most definitely time to
move on. All right, so maybe jazz is not quite an enticing subject, but how
about this?
999 marks Jorge Luis Borges' 100th Birthday. Maybe we should all put our collective
minds together and figure out a way to celebrate it via this website, considering
how Borges was one of Unca Harlan's intellectual teachers. The birthday will
be celebrated sometime in August so there is plenty of time to come up with
a good electronic shindig.
Oh great good gods!
Peter: May I just complement you on your clean, precise and elegant prose? Your
itemized rebuttal to narriman was just lovely.
Narriman: Oh puhleeze. So, because you have no social life, you're going to
inflict yourself on us? Actually, I do agree with some of the things you have
said about HE's stories (I love the story "Mephisto in Onyx" yet the voice of
the character, supposedly a black man, sounds so distinctively Jewish to me,
and so unlike the way my black friends have communicated to me about their experiences.
However, this is a pretty minor quibble as the story is tight otherwise, and
I still like it.). Although you clearly have a large vocabulary, I find it difficult
to believe that your ego is quite so tough as you represent when you are clearly
engaging in a behaviour designed to prop up a sagging ego. You do not communicate
clearly. You do not use language precisely, and do not put this off on the fact
that you are British or a writer or some other crap like that. Your prose is
rambling, overly verbose and as you are the one who started tossing around insults,
don't be surprised that you get them right back in your face. I have no problem
whatsoever with dissenters. I've been dissenting practically since I was born,
and yet I do not feel it neccessary to insult the people who disagree with me.
Also, I daresay everybody on this board understood all those really big words
that you used, but as your usage was so deliberately convoluted, it is a bit
hard to figure out exactly what the hell you mean.
Brilliance is revealed in the clean elegance of it's presentation.
Humanity is revealed in it's generosity.
Great art transcends labels and extremes. Great art speaks to the universal
human experience, not the extreme.
Bright but not brilliant, petty and pathetic. Sound familiar? It damn well should.
Wylie- don't let the twerp get you down.
Has anyone read the new Dan Simmons book yet? Just curious.
Syzygy Namirran
Just for the record, I am capable of speaking and writing standard American
English. However, I chose not to do so in my last post to more effectively draw
a metaphor between a BBS and a jam session. It also makes the point that one
must choose the manner in which he communicates and consider the audience.
For some reason, God only knows why, I pictured Namirran as a graduate student.
Why? Because Namirran writes like an academic. When I'm writing papers for my
master's degree, I, too, tend to write in that manner.
Aaaah---who the heck knows (or cares). It's probably all because I'm an American.
Peter: I continue to provoke animosity? Hardly. If you read what I have
written (aside from those things which I have written in response to other's
acerbic comments) you will find that I have presented a very credible point
of view that is also supported by many of those who post to this board, whether
they realise it or not. Even you have expressed agreement on some things.
Nope. You guys just don't like my 'tone' or something.
Syzygy Namirran
Sue: You are quite an amusing person. It seems you would prefer that I
waste large amounts of space on this board trading insults with you (a feat,
I might add, you seem ill-equipped to handle properly) instead of simply explaining
why I couldn't care less about engaging you and your simple-minded metaphor-laden
'babbling meant as affrontery'. Now, while I can understand that you are merely
reacting (yet again) without due reflection---the same kind of behavior responsible
for producing such an 'intelligent' sentence as, "Yeah, I load my pants in terror
every time someone doesn't agree with me on a BBoard....", I must tell you that
it does nothing but make you appear smaller in my view. (And, just to clarify,
I mean this not to sound arrogant. I state this objectively. Take from it what
you will.)
Again, if you want to discuss something worth your while, then so be it. I urge
you to stop wasting your time writing these half-witted, wannabee-scathing monologues
you seem so fond of producing. Either that, or hit me with something better---something
worth the effort behind shooting for that Gold Medal in sterling vituperation.
Syzygy Namirran
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
I quit reading in detail two days ago. I'm a good sight-reader and page
skimmer though. This is my take: Namirran is what we jazz musicians call a "drag".
Namirran, cool out. Use plainer words and shorter sentence structures. Come
to your points quickly and build them to a climax. Learn to use silence. Your
blowing is too busy, you need to learn how to swing. When you jump up on the
stand with that egotistical show of technique and theoretical knowledge, you
get in the way of the music. Pretty soon, don't nobody wanna see you coming
around with your axe in your hand. A good soloist can stir up the ensemble without
trampling on it.
Wylie: hi. Take some time out, but don't be a stranger.
Sue: You are a true radical and get right down in the nitty gritty. That's why
I dig you so much.
Art? Some cultures don't even have a word for art. Art is what it is. Popularity
is a fluke. Sometimes, the two intersect.
Isn't it just amazing how that every time someone comes onto this board
with a "dissenting viewpoint" they do so with defenses up, egos on full booster,
and armed to the teeth with feelings of superiority. Shall I list the crimes
of the current "dissentor?"
1. comes onto this board with a post which was clearly meant to provoke a response.
Is surprised when some of us responed to the post in a civil and constructive
manner but targets those who have a slightly more visceral response.
2. continues to try an provoke responses. Each time, comes back with the idea
that we have somehow misinterpreted, or misconstrued, or misunderstood something
that was said. We are always the ones at fault for feeling offended at something.
This keeps the feet firmly planted on the moral highground.
3. Abuses the english language for the purpose of senseless posturing and needless
obfuscation. rather than communicating ideas, the language is used to hide arguments
in a cloud of ambiguity and pointed statements.
4. after all of this... wonders why we fail to accept when all we have been
offered in return for acceptance is narcisistic egotism and veiled insults.
Should I go on? I will not ask you to leave, for it is not my place to do so.
But I will ask that you re-read your posts and see if I haven't hit on something
here. You need to remember that while you are posting to a board, there are
actual human beings who are reading them. These are people who deserve respect.
You came to this board filled with prejudices about how we would respond, and
you have allowed those predjudices to guide your posts ever since.
---Peter
Sure glad Narriman "don't possess the self-serving desire to make a melodramatic
show of defense for people (including
myself) where one is not needed." And it only took how many paragraphs to explain,
and justify what he isn't defending??? Must be nice to have a bullet-proof ego..
Shame about that no friends.. Understandable, though - a complete lack of humility
has that effect.. Still not sure what birthplace and coat-tails have to do with
it.. If I was born in Washington, D.C. and eat the in Congressional cafeteria
daily, am I a political insider?? Darn near wet my pants laughing when I read
"Why is everyone so fearful of a dissenting perspective?" Yeah, I load my pants
in terror every time someone doesn't agree with me on a BBoard.... right....
Like I don't read Ellison, 'cause he doesn't write what I've been told I want
to hear... right.... It's not the "concepts" or "perspectives" Namirran - it's
you.
Sue: Incidentally, the way in which I 'bandy' with words is merely my manner
of speaking. I'm sorry if that offends you. As a writer, born and raised in
Britain (Stratford-on-Avon), and member of certain publishing circles here in
London, I'm not entirely sure as to how you expect me to write. [?]
For instance, your particular 'voice' sounds distinctly American to me, but
I don't reproach you for it.
Syzygy Nammirran
Sue: Actually, I selected the name Syzygy for the very reason that it represents
my standing in relation to others. The dynamics of a moon-sun-earth configuration
is suited to my current social position, at least insofar as I am viewed as
a constant 'thorn in everyone's side' but constantly endeavoring to move into
a better social alignment. (Well, at least, that was the plan anyway.) :)
As far as your comments are concerned: I would respond 'in kind', but I do not
see the point of wasting space on this board for such a reply. Besides, because
I have a rather secure view myself, I don't possess the self-serving desire
to make a melodramatic show of defense for people (including myself) where one
is not needed.
For what it's worth, Sue, I think you have a number of interesting opinions,
and I think that we could have a few stimulating conversations if only you could
sidestep your own hatred of what I seem to represent in your mind: a callow-minded,
arrogant elitist with nothing else better to do than to sit around berating
people with flashy dialogue and prolix sophistry. Why is everyone so fearful
of a dissenting perspective? Perhaps I should use a more effacing tone? I don't
know?
If all of you simply want me to leave, never to post to this board again, I
can do that too. Just let me know if I've worn out my welcome, as the phrase
goes. :)
Syzygy Namirran
Well said, Alejandro. However, I still maintain that art should be measured
and valued by its effect, not by its qualities of 'artistic balance' or general
acceptability. For instance, a twelve year old girl living in the projects,
reading a story by Piers Anthony, might have every bit as much of an artistic
'frisson' as that experienced by a college literature professor encountering
Finnegan's Wake for the first time. Even moreso, in some cases.
I think literary elitism and snobbism are beside the point, really, notwithstanding
the multitude of objective considerations that are instrinic to each of these
views. The effect that a work of art has upon a person is influenced, ultimately,
by what that person knows, understands and feels about the human condition.
All that can be said is that sometimes certain measures of understanding require
certain qualitites to be present in a work of art in order for it to directly
evoke the same sense of awe felt, perhaps, at an earlier time in the course
of one's life. Everything, at bottom, is relative. Hence the confusion generated
when an attempt is made to objectify a constantly shifting aesthetic spectrum,
one which rests mainly upon a dynamic change in what is commonly refered to
as 'personal taste'. No one is 'on the same page', as it were, although certain
similarities may exist amid people. What I view as a valuated 'extreme', may
not even be visible to someone else.
Syzygy Namirran
wylie - I'm gonna miss you, *hug* but I do understand.
Narriman - I'm talking to you. I have no respect for people who posture and
attack others from the safety of anonymity, with a sneer. Yes that means you.
No e-mail address.. Fake name.. Slams without provocation, that you deny.. Against
people you don't bother to get to know.. Just blow in, and blow hard.. You forgot
to (define syzygy for the obviously inferior intellects) - or mention that it
is probably the last listing under "S" in your Dictionary, and is an astronomical
term, not a name. Get a good unabridged dictionary - there *are* more S words
after syzygy, which I'm sure would suit you better - not to mention all those
other new words to bandy about impressively.. I'm talking to you, Narriman (have
to make that clear, since simply addressing it too you doesn't register with
you). You ARE like a turd in the punchbowl - you end the party, and drive people
away. Sure, some people will take another look to make sure it isn't chocolate
- but they realize their mistake. Sure, everyone is polite and tries to find
something positive to say. Doesn't matter, they still leave. You have the charm,
personal warmth, and sensitivity of an IRS Audit. Should I break out the thesaurus
to translate this into "your terms"? Should I define every word over 5 letters
in leanth for you, to make sure you "get it"? Should I assume you are completely
uneducated and without any esthetic sense - and insult you, until you prove
to my satisfaction you don't deserve it? Nahhh - then I'd be *you*... I'm talkin
to you - but just this once. Your prancing and taunting, and narrow expertise
didn't deserve more than the few moments it took to realize you have little
to offer - just a rehash of what is better stated and more pleasant reading
elsewhere. Sure hope you aren't thinking about being a writer - if so, keep
your day job. Go ahead, flame away with your honed and obtuse "art" of verbal
abuse.. Gotta keep *that* skill honed, doncha? It's the only social skill you
have. Hey!! Why don't you learn a *NEW* skill?? It's called "Shut Up, Listen
with respect, and Learn something". It will more than double your current personal
appeal...you may even make a friend that way. I'm done talking to you now.
Peter - A good heart, keen mind, AND well spoken - the best combo :-) Art communicates.
The better it communicates the artists intention, the better it is as art. The
good art not only communicates the intention, but conveys a truth. The best
art communicates a universal timeless truth - which means even the ignorant,
unworthy folks "get it" any place, any time. So I agree Peter, the true test
of great art is time, which allows the universal communication aspect to retain
it (that means ALL people - not just those "educated to appreciate it" - isn't
that a Madison Ave strategy? creating a market?). I'm not sure that it is possible
to define great art any other way. There just doesn't seem to be a formula for
it.. ;-)
Oh, dear. What a good night sleep can do to one's psyche and "little grey
cells". Upon re-reading my post and reading the ones that follow, I suddenly
find myself embarrassed at my idea of "snobbism" as the last line of defense
against the massive bombardment of cheezoid information courtesy of your friendly
neighborhood mega-giant. Why? Because as so many of you have pointed out so
well, that sort of elitist distinction can very well lead one to overlook worthy
works of art that are popular as well. The problem, again, is not one of whether
art should be popular (which it should) or whether one must evaluate an individual
work on its own merits (which can work most of the time). But of how one personally
defines what popular art is and how it is being defined by the forces of merchandising
and (oh, dear, that word) synergy. As a critic I have to come to terms with
this question every day of the week. Particularly given the limited amount of
space that I have to introduce my readers to works of art (books, music, movies,
et al.) that might prove both popular and enlightening while at the seem time
covering most of what is out there just because it is seen as popular. This
whole snobbish notion of what is popular has led us to think that foreign-language
films are "art films", aimed at a certain class of people, with a certain income
and x amounts of degrees. Which is why most people will ignore a film like "Life
is Beautiful" and Ken Loach's "My Name is Joe" (to my mind, films which balance
very well the populist and the artistic) while flocking to see something as
hideous as "Armageddon".
What I really am against, and what really drives me batty, is the sort of extremist
elitist attitude that most seudo-intellectuals have against or for art. Careful,
kids. Because it is that same kind of extreme elitism that sooner or later drives
most intelligent people away from engaging in a constructive dialogue. And it
is that same kind of elitism that drives most real, true popular art underground,
leaving future generations with nothing more than the equivalent of mind control
drugs.
Peter: In saying, " Great art always stands at an extreme, if only because
a certain level of aptitude for aesthetics is required of its audience, one
that, in most cases, is not often found in those deprived of certain kinds of
education" I meant only to illustrate, in an objective manner, merely a single
element of the same spectrum which I indicated in an earlier post. The operable
word in this phrase is 'extreme'. To suggest that I mean this phrase to apply
a subjective implication for the whole spectrum of merit available to a given
work of art is hardly my aim, I can assure you.
Wylie: How was I being insulting with my most recent post? To say that a certain
assertion is 'moronic' is not to say that those who puport it are moronic. (In
truth, I was ridiculing the suggestion of such an assertion.) Surely you see
the difference [?] In fact, even Peter noted the absurdity of using quantity
as a proper measure of artistic merit. All the same, if you like to take personal
offense to the censure of generally propounded---but illogical---statements,
then so be it. Far be it from me to impose upon your need to attack me. :)
Syzygy Namirran
Syzygy::: " Great art always stands at an extreme, if only because a certain
level of aptitude for aesthetics is required of its audience, one that, in most
cases, is not often found in those deprived of certain kinds of education."
I'm not sure how I could have misinterpreted this. Language is used for communication.
If you are purposely being ambiguous, then we cannot converse on anything resembling
equal footing. As for your manner; I am asking you once more to cool it. I for
one don't like seeing insightful, intelligent people driven from this board
because some myopic troll has set sites on them.
wylie:::I can understand why you'd want to steer clear of the this, especially
when the shrapnel seems to fly your direction no matter where you go. But don't
be a stranger. I probably speak for most people here when I say we really don't
want you to stop posting. hopefully our friend here will realize that this undue
belligerence is counter-productive. Of course, sometimes the best way to kill
a troll is to burn its bridge.
---Peter
shit. i still misspelled your name. sorry again.
NAMARRIN: I apologize for misspelling your name previously. Apparently
my skin is not thick enough to deflect your poisonous darts. I will no longer
attempt to communicate on this board. ALL (except Namarrin): You have all been
warm and kind to me and I wish I could take this crap a little better. Please
email me anytime. Count on me to be lurking and waiting for safer waters. Happy
trails. Wylie
Well, well, well . . . .
DTS: Thanks for your comments, both those aimed at advancing the dialogue on
this board (as much as you 'don't have the time to squander on debating aesthetics')
and those aimed at furthering your own assumptions regarding little ol' me.
Needless to say, with respect to the former, you have some valid questions;
with respect to the latter, however, all I can say is: *yawn* At the very least,
you might have provided a insult commensurate with your abilities. :) All the
same, I'm always happy to be misread.
I'm afraid that you misinterpreted my latest post. I had considered, while writing
it, that it would be misinterpreted, as I knew that I wouldn't have the time
to flesh it out fully, thereby leaving much that might be considered, at best,
to be ambiguous. I was hoping to merely illustrate an understanding of 'valuation'
in literature ('valuation' being a term that was used by the French philophes
to describe the various shades, or gradations, of value that can be derived
from the enjoyment of art, mainly that proffered to humanity by virtue of the
literary medium.) If read with this supposition in mind, one can see very plainly
that I do not, in any way, mean to suggest that one should "ignore the success
of Charles Dickens, Ernest Hemingway, and hundreds of other writers . . blah
blah blah ". (Although, as many so-called scholars will tell you, both Dickens
and Hemingway are far from being representative of literary "paragons". Well,
that is, unless you're Eric Blair or Ray Bradbury, needfully exorcising the
vestiges of a boyhood fascination with a literary icon.) I meant only to state
that there is a spectrum to which all works of art adhere.
If you find me "insulting", DTS, then so be it. If you think me arrogant and
youthfully stupid, you're certainly entitled to your own thoughts. As far as
me 'trying hard to impress everyone' is concerned: not at all, mon cher. If
I were 'trying', as you put it, you'd know it, I can assure you. Contributing
to this board requires from me an effort that is akin to breathing, if only
because I've been doing this sort of thing for a number of years, which might
account for my being less sensitive and self-conscious than most. Perhaps I
could stand to review my posts before posting them. :) Who knows? All I can
say is: if you're trying to get published, or if you are a published writer
hoping to continue a career, then you'd better grow a thicker skin.
Peter: Thanks for the comments. Like I said to DTS: I think you've misinterpreted
my post (or, at the very least, the intent of it.) Oh, and by the way: demotic
means "Of or relating to the common people", whereas popular means, "Widely
liked or appreciated." And although I can see how you might misconstrue the
meanings of these words, they hardly mean exactly the same thing. (I just thought
I'd mention that---one prig to another.)
Syzygy Namirran
Syzygy::: So am I right in believing that it is your assertion that "great
art" can only be appreciated by a select few with a hightened sense of aesthetics?
If I'm off base, please let me know. If not, then what I'm seeing is further
proof that the idea of art has been relegated to the wastelands of elitist whims.
Sure, the idea of numbers is a ridiculous premise on which to base a work's
merits, but to declare something as trash without giving it an opportunity stand
the test of time which makes something art is reprehensible. Art is great when
people keep coming back to it. It doesn't matter if the people are boarding
schooled, ivy leagued, ph.d'ed, poseurs with egos the size of their vocabularies
(on a side note, "popular, demotic" is redundant. please try to lay off the
supersyllabic words as they do less to communicate than they do to show off.)
or everyday, public high schooled, state colleged, working folk who know a good
thing when they see it. People forget that ol' Willy Shakespeare had his plays
shown in large theaters for the masses. Little Charlie Dickens had his overly
inflated but terribly interesting stories published in the pulps, the nineteenth
century equivalent to daytime soaps. So to say that great art is above people's
heads is to proclaim that both Willy and Charlie were flukes, and that there
will never again be a popular writer who will one day be considered a great
artist. The fact that we let these "great minds" decide what is art and what
is trash is a tribute to the extent to which the learned intelligencia have
cowed and beaten the free thinking members of society who want to be able to
make their own judgements as to what is good or not. It is sad that people have
turned to our microwaved fastfood popcorn culture and have declared it art in
place of works that are good and meaningful. But the way I see it, this is just
a reaction to the oligarchy of the "truly literate" who espouse formless style
with greatness and honest storytelling with shit. I can only hope that in the
future, when all of us are dead or dying, the world having reached the last
quarter of the first century of the new millenium, that work is finally judged
as art, great or otherwise, by standing the true litmus test of art; time. Only
then will I be proven right or wrong on my beliefs as to what constitutes great
art. But I'm willing to place good money that it will not be the constant influx
of esoteria that is being held up on a pedastal by academia as great because
"if people got it, it wouldn't be great."
---Peter (sticking my foot where I probably shouldn't. I left my asbestos suit
at home.)
Oops. That word in the first sentence should be aesthetics (hey, I said
I was pressed for time, didn't I?) While I'm about it: a big hello to all the
regulars -- you've been keeping up some pretty lively and interesting debates
around here. And while I may not have time to join in on them, I always try
to take a moment (every few days) to follow along. Best wishes, DTS.
Though I, unfortunately, don't have much time to squander on debating the
aestetics of writing and what constitutes literature, I had to stop in to say
something to NAMIRRAN (if I mispelled it, I apologize, but as Van Morrison would
say, "I can't stop now!"): in your last post you wrote, in part, "The very analyses
employed by critics (the measuring of a work by its individual merit) precludes
any great work from also being culturally popular. It is a logical impossibility."
I had to bring it up because you started your post by addressing the "moronic"
beliefs of others. If we were to believe your statement, then we'd have to ignore
the success of Charles Dickens, Ernest Hemingway, and hundreds of other writers
who are (by resounding agreement of egghead academics everywhere), writers of
literature. Not only did they write literature, but they were popular. What's
more, it was entertaining. Hell, even John Updike (who mostly writes about the
bedroom antics of aging New Englanders, and actually believes that literature
cannot be entertaining), even he is writes books that are popular. (using, here,
a couple of Webster's definitions: "relating to the general public,"frequently
encountered or widely accepted"). Now, when you speak of popular fiction we
know you can't be referring only to the Grishams, Kings and Cornwells of the
writing world -- because they are phenomenons in their own right -- and to expect
every popular writer to live up to that sort of once-in-a-lifetime business
would be, well, moronic. And since a small percentage of Americans actually
read, it's a safe bet that books that hit bestseller lists are popular. Books
like A FAREWELL TO ARMS, RABBIT IS RICH, SOPHIE'S CHOICE, OLIVER TWIST, BELOVED,
etc., etc. So you see, literature and popularity aren't mutually exclusive.
You are obviously young, and trying hard to impress everyone with your knowledge.
But constantly insulting people you are debating with (when you weren't even
provoked) doesn't show knowlege or wisdom. It displays an arrogance born of
youthful stupidity...and a sad need for attention to fill a void or stroke an
uncertain ego. And since you'll no doubt fire off an insult at me (and at least
I, unlike others, will be deserving of a salvo) I gotta tell ya that I really
am too busy to engage in pissing contest. I just wanted to point out that you
were not only wrong, but you managed (as usual) to be snotty-nosed while putting
your foot in your mouth. I'd suggest that sit back, take stock of yourself and
why you feel the need to try and impress everyone with your knowlege while simultaneously
insulting them, but I'm sure that would be no smarter than taking a piss in
a wind tunnel. I do hope you learn to like yourself a little more someday. Out
here, DTS.
"I read his mind. He was a filthy little scum."
"Nonetheless"
"Don't yell at me."
"This isn't a game, friend Lhayne. This is survival."
"It's always survival. But not necessarily Art."
"Oh yes. I'd forgotten. You're still call yourself an artist, aren't you?"
"That's what I am. It's the correct word."
The Supervisor snickered. There were no features to the mask, so it was impossible
to tell how much of a sneer accompanied the sound. "Correct? Perhaps operable
is what you mean. An Artist who is himself the Art. Standing in a public place
and letting rain wash over you, and calling it 'Rebirth.' Crawling through broken
glass till your body is torn and calling it 'The Eternal Appollonian-Dionysian
Conflict.' I suppose that's Art."
"I don't tell you how to supervise."
"Art criticism is as old as Art."
"I rearrange the universe. That is the nature of my Art."
"No, friend Lhayne. We all rearrange the universe. What's left of it. The ten
thousand of us, here at the end of time. That is the nature of survival."
~~~~ Harlan Ellison, from "Shoppe Keeper" (Shatterday)
Dear Syzygy, Peter and the rest:
I do think that this whole notion of esoterism versus populism is even a tad
more complex. I do agree with both Syzygy's and Wylye's assertions. And I do
think that even though these are issues that date back to the seventeenth, eigteenth
and nineteenth centuries (hell even to the Elizathen era. After all, wasn't
Shakespeare accused of being a populist? And haven't his plays, even some of
his more flawed ones, endured to his day?), the whole notion of what is acceptable,
of what will endure from our popular culture today, is complicated even more
by the constant pouncing we the consumers receive from all media in this so-called
marketplace of ideas. How can you defend true popular art forms —whether in
literature, film or even television— when we have to wander through so much
sludge? A point can be made that it is better to have so many books/movies/magazines/TV
programs et al. to choose from than to have nothing at all. The problem is that
with the rampant merging of such media empires as Time Warner, AT&T and company,
those choices are nothing more than a quick and dirty act of hocus-pocus. And
with the masses constant obssession with numbers (who made the New York Times
best seller list, who dumped who from the box-office over the weekend)
Yes, I have drifted from the main point: a discussion of snobbism versus populism.
But it seems to me that the societal and economic forces that surround us (and
that diminish the actual amount of intellectual choices available to us as readers
and viewers) are pivotal in understanding what is truly at the heart of this
discussion. Who knows, maybe snobbism (whatever that may mean) may be the last
stronghold against the corporate hordes who wish to control what we read, think
and even watch.
No wonder some intellectuals are holding tight to the flag of "snobbism".
To suggest that literary 'snobbishness' is the mere result of private taste
influenced by an aversion to popular, demotic culture is simply too moronic
an assertion to let stand without due censure. And while it may be true to say
that many literary critics are failed writers for whom this sort of intellectual
'elitism' is common practice, it is also true to say that there exists a rather
large body of writers who support their 'snobbish' criticisms with legitimate,
and informed, claims, most of which fly far above the heads of the common, conventional
majority.
The preference of literary 'snobs' is not one supported by measures of quantity.
On the contrary, critics of literature stand by their declarations of what is
'good' and what is 'not good' with only a work's measure of artistic merit in
mind, a measure that is recorded in terms of 'magnitude', or ambition, not sales.
It just so happens that most of what can be considered 'good' is also not as
popular as, say, the writing of Stephen King. The very analyses employed by
critics (the measuring of a work by its individual merit) precludes any great
work from also being culturally popular. It is a logical impossibility. Great
art always stands at an extreme, if only because a certain level of aptitude
for aesthetics is required of its audience, one that, in most cases, is not
often found in those deprived of certain kinds of education. And certainly,
this acocunts for the rampant growth of the 'midlist' and all of its mediocre
'talent'.
"Those least fit for survival breed with the most frequency."
~~~ Malthus
Syzygy Namirran
(the person wearing the flame-resistant suit) :)
ps. I would like to impart my beliefs about what art 'is', but I'm not sure
that anyone (save Finder) is all that interested. I just don't want to clutter
up your board with my senseless prattling. Let me know if there is interest.
No sweat, Gary. Thanks for your help. Have you ever read "Harrison Bergeron,"
by Kurt Vonnegut (sp)? If so, that is how I find life with my two-and-a-half
year old. God forbid I get to complete a thought . . . Happy Trails. Wylie
A snobbery based on the esoteric, yes, but I think generally it’s a snobbery
that assumes that anything liked by the great unwashed must be dreck, not capable
of being appreciated on any deeper level. The work that is praised by this snobbery
may not necessarily be esoteric, but very very traditional. Maybe Dickens, even,
but I haven’t read any. Pardon me if I’m splitting hairs and saying the same
thing you just did, with more words…
Peter: I have thought about this question myself and I have only come to
a few conclusions. There are people who are attracted to popularity, and people
who are repelled by it. Many are caught up in feeling self important based on
the obscurity of their tastes. Snobery based on the esoteric. I believe that
choosing likes and dislikes because of popularity is stupid, in either direction.
There is another thing. Have you read much Dickens? I remember being disgusted
one day (although I really like Dickens) when I realized that, in his time,
he was a popular writer like any we have today. Complete with sensationalistic
tugging on heartstrings and over-the-top characters. Today he is considered
one of the greats and anything he ever wrote is a classic. I believe his work
is valuable and timeless, not only for his social commentary, but for the way
he builds the setting with rich details, making the reader feel like they know
his London--as if we were really there. I believe Stephen King will be valued
for the same thing one day, although his work has to struggle against the prejudices
surrounding genre. He has a wonderful tone. I have always thought of his books
as just so american, and that's what I liked about them.
That's my take, Peter. My train of thought was derailed numerous times by the
toddler menace, you can probably tell. take care. wylie
Heya everybody. I was watching the new Stephen King mini last night and
I started thinking about something that has been disturbing me. Every time I
take a creative writing course (I find the workshops invaluable) I inevitably
get a professor who spends most of his time praising "literary" works and slamming
"bestsellers" as if the two were always mutually exclusive. The basic mentality
of these professors is that if a book sells more than five copies it must be
crap. Not that a book which sells poorly is necessarily literature, but that
a book which appeals to the populous as a whole is obviously trash which caters
to the lowest common denominator. Now the only explanation I can come up with
(besides simple jealousy) for this behavior is that the academic definition
of literature is slightly skewed from the popular definition. I don't know.
No one is going to make me feel inferior because I enjoy a book by Stephen King
(or Clive Barker for that matter). But I would like to get other people's views
on this. For me the most important things are characters and plot, they are
what I focus on while writing. Am I wrong? Will this consign me to the library
of mediocrity in which the remainders wait to have their covers torn and their
pages recycled? Or am I just suffering from a bad case of academic molestation?
Or is there really something to all this that I just don't get? Food for thought.
Aspirin for a headache.
---Peter
DTS: Worrying me? Naw; not really. Were I entirely honest, I would have
to admit that worrying about picayune details like this is just a shuck and
jive--one that serves the dual purpose of procrastinating from writing these
last three chapters as well as it keeps me from worrying about the chapters
themselves when I actually sit down to write. It's much easier to have a beat
a straw man like a little worry than to slap knuckles against a man made of
stronger stuff--like brick.
Wylie: Thanks yourself. Yup, that's me--gallant, sweet, and alone on Valentine's
Day (and not a little brokenhearted, but that's another story altogether).
ALEX: Thanks for your kind words in my defense. You are gallant and sweet.
SUE: Thanks to you as well. ALL: I can see some of you have been busy while
I was gone. Despite all the good wishes, I didn't see a whale this trip (maybe
some spray, otherwise--zip). I did, however, show myself a really good time.
Lots of great food and fun on the beach. Fort Bragg, CA is a great place for
r&r. Next week I'm taking the two year old terror to the snow. Scared o' that!
Take care everyone. Wylie
ps Narriman: Let's try plain, old Anglo-Saxon, okay? I DON'T HAVE A DAMN THING
TO SAY TO YOU.
ALEX: if approaching Ellison about permission to use a quote from one of
his stories as an epigraph is really worrying you, don't do it. While permission
will be required, it will only be required AFTER you sell it to a publisher
-- process that could very well take a while. And, when you do succeed in selling
your novel, the publisher has people whose job is to take care of matters such
as getting rights to use quotes from books, stories, and songs (the last of
which will cost a pretty penney, so if you can avoide using quotes from popular
songs, do so). Out here, DTS.
Would HE's place truly be different if he was only taken on the merits
of his work from the mid-sixties on? Tricky double-edged sword. While this removes
many of the stepping stones that show the man honing his skills, some of them
wildly imperfect, it also removes a large portion of what could be called his
more mainstream fiction (such as Spider Kiss, or the tales in Gentleman Junkie)
and Memos From Purgatory, mature early work which I think speaks well of him
as a writer. (Total aside - I think if in no other way, HE shows great class
and character by not beating the public to death with the fact that Dorothy
Parker thought well of Gentleman Junkie. At the other end of the spectrum, is
Clive Barker ever going to stop reminding us that Stephen King thought he (CB)
was "the future of horror"?) There IS a bias in some circles against HE, ostensibly
for his early days, when no genre or forum was below his radar. I had a professor
back at SUNY, another published author of minor note whose name I'm withholding,
who looked down his nose at HE with the dismissive comment "Well, he'll write
anything." Of course, this professor's measure of quality was whether the tale
could be published in The New Yorker, and he was staunchly against any kind
of genre writing. (He openly dismissed Ray Bradbury as a writer, at which time
I knew this individual had a vein of anthracite where his soul should have resided
and no manners to speak of.) Given his druthers, I'm sure HE would like to expunge
the record of a lot of his early work that shows a writer in growth. He's worked
hard for the reputation he has, and through his actions (like pulling "Invulnerable"
from Stalking the Nightmare on Stephen King's comment that it evidenced some
dating, and his distress over the reprinting of "Doomsman" at a time when it
was so unindicative of the writer he had become), he shows he holds himself
and what he releases or re-releases to a high standard. I would be surprised
to see a book like the sometimes-listed Rough Beasts see the light of day without
a whole lot of introductory matter. BARNEY - I may have to start collecting
The Quotable Barney Dannelke; "Lord knows he's used the epigraph more often
than Wambaugh has used a hooker to forward a plot." is a definite keeper. --Finder
***ALEX*** Don't see why not. It promotes him without requiring a blurb
standing by your work and it's not a high ticket item like "Repent..." or "Jeffty".
Lord knows he's used the epigraph more often than Wambaugh has used a hooker
to forward a plot.
***Sue /Syzygy / Rick / Doc / Finder / DTS / Shane / Everybody else *** Just
wanted to say I've really enjoyed the dialogue this week even though I didn't
participate. I'm just not comfortable on the lit/crit side of the fence. I will
say that I've always enjoyed a higher percentage of the essays to the fiction
but that's no suprise. I probably have a larger collection of never reprinted
pre-1960 material than most, and Harlan, even more than most writers, taught
himself to write in public. By that, I mean there just isn't as much "early
struggling to find a voice" material from Oates or Updike or Vonnegut. If it
would be possible to simply jettison the pre-1965 material I think Harlan's
place in American letters would be quite different. But what the hell, maybe
Twain wouldn't have tried "Joan Of Arc" and Wilde wouldn't have pressed that
lawsuit... SEEMED LIKE A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME
Alex - I've had two encounters of the Ellison kind - both times set in
the intimate context of a loooong line-up at a convention for getting autographs.
Not exactly a setting conducive to making friends, or doing the *happy dance*..
My impression is that "tit-for-tat" is more what happens when HE interacts with
the public. Ellison and his wife Susan tolerated this fool.. :-) .. Twice. I
didn't expect either time would involve more than "Who do I make it out to?",
and was surprised extended conversations followed what I would consider normal,
civilized chat while Ellison did his obligatory signing. Not exactly the Ogre..
I did smile as Ellison torched a couple of snot-nosed wannabe's trying to make
an impression (we'll never know who they were trying to impress). I get the
feeling that the "suffer fools" should be "be put upon by over-bearingly rude
and stupid people" And since that doesn't seem to describe you - have no fear.
:-)
ALEX - My experiences in person with HE (both one on one and watching others
approach him) only enforce what you've probably already heard: the two things
he won't suffer are ignorance and insincerity. I'm sure if you make the request
in a professional, polite manner (which I'm certain you will), he'll respond
in kind. He might decline - but the refusal certainly won't arrive on razor-edged
paper. (I've seen the man do an impression of a goldfish to amuse a small child
- it does a lot to shatter those myths about dropping fans down elevator shafts.)
Good luck, both finishing the novel (I have a ways to go on my own, so your
nearness to the finish line is an inspiration) and with your request of HE.
--Finder
You know, it's funny--I was just reading my copy of Kersh's _Nightshade
and Damnations_, reading Ellison's introduction, wherein he nanes Kersh as a
"Demon Prince" of writing, able to wring more from words and descriptions than
any other--as Ellison wished he could, and I thought about it.
I'm something of a writer myself--just three chapters away from finishing my
novel--and I have a demon prince as well--Ted Sturgeon.
I love Ellison's writing, but for me, Sturgeon did things with words and description
that few have ever equalled--and that I despair of ever nearing.
Still, I know that, if not a great writer, I'm certainly a GOOD writer (not
that you'd know it from these Board comments), with a style of my own.
Still, I dread finishing this book for two reasons--one, that I'll have to get
moving on the NEXT one, and two, that I'll have to approach HE about using a
quote from "Ernest and the Machine God" as the book's opening epigram.
Those of you who've been in actual contact with the man might be able to tell
me--do you think he'd suffer a fool like myself?
ALL - Ten thousand pardons are asked, for I misquoted "Catman" - it should
read "He came back to existence, brute MATTER, on the three-quarter-inch ledge..."
Reason #361 I should have been in bed four hours ago...
SYZYGY - Not what I would have guessed the S. stood for. Intriguing choice
of name...Thanks for your feedback and again, some interesting points. It seems
very much like your appreciation of Ellison the essayist carries with it a heightened
expectation of 'more' from HE when he writes fiction. I am heartened by your
admission that he has produced "some fine pieces" - perhaps there's some hope
for you yet (that would be in 'sarcastics', if such a type style existed). You
make two statements that I would be curious to hear some elaboration on: first,
"The hallmark of a good writer is the ability to inject the life of art into
something as abstract and unmoving as mere words." and second, "Instead of presenting
his fiction from a character's point of view (or the view of any narrator, for
that matter) Ellison uses his own punchy rhetoric to fill the mouths of his
characters...". I feel the latter is far too general an assertion to be wholly
defendable (though, as usual, I can see stories that could be used to buttress
the claim - "The New York Review of Bird" jumps to mind). Entertain if you will
a quote from "Paladin of the Lost Hour": "So much about him as he spoke of her.
His voice soft and warm and filled with a longing so deep and true that he had
to stop frequently because the words broke and would not come out till he had
thought away some of the passion." Far from rhetoric, this story to me is poetic,
and far removed from such things as HE's diatribes against knife kill flicks
and Christmas. Of course, Paladin is easy to cite. Something else, perhaps -
"He came back to existence, brute master, on the three-quarter-inch ledge outside
a dreamcell apartment on the ninetieth level. He was flattened against the force
screen that served as wall. It was opaque and he lay against it like a smear
of rainbow oil. He could not be seen from inside, where the wealthy ones he
intended to rob lay quietly, dreaming." From "Catman" - a tale which isn't everyone's
cup of tea, but which I think is well told and makes good use of language. The
question I'm angling towards in all of this, I guess, is how would you define
'art'? Can an individual define 'art', or can he/she only set parameters by
which technical merit can be judged? My experience has been that what constitutes
art has determinates on both the individual and the societial level - but can
both be right? I'd love to go on, but it's past 4 a.m. here at my keyboard,
screamingly past my bedtime, so I'm out of here. Great weekend, All! --Finder
Alex, thank you for the gentle reminder concerning my current social standing
(or lack of standing, as the case me be) as ajudged by those who contribute
to this message board. I can assure you that I do not expect any kind of instant,
shake-and-bake change with respect to the general disposition shown toward me.
As I have already stated, I know how I portrayed myself in my initial posts.
Only an idiot would expect freely given respect as a follow up to such an unimpressive
mess of a first impression.
My words directed toward Wylie and Sue are not 'slams' as much as they are subtle
invitations to further continue the exchange of verbal vitriol. You see, I am
happy to exert my efforts on multiple fronts, whether those fronts are ignoble
or not. And although I would prefer to engage myself in genuine debate, I would
be a liar if I did not admit that I find quarrelsome argument also strangely
stimulating. If people wish to maintain an argumentative disposition toward
me, even in the wake of my most recent posts, then so be it. I am ready to trade
blows, in the interest of both genuine criticism and rancorous tirade. After
all, it's not as though I didn't ask for responses illustrating both of these
extremities. Moreover, I am happy to be of service to anyone who wishes to joust.
I'm sure that both Wylie and Sue are wonderful people, though not especially
cut out for making personal attacks upon others. I suppose that is a skill that
only Devils like myself ever fully appreciate.
"And whenever she would try it again, he would inflict the pain on himself.
Until she was so horrified by it that she stopped. 'That's how I developed a
very high threshold for pain,' he had said."
--- Harlan Ellison, All the Lies That Are My Life
Best regards to all,
Syzygy Namirran
Don't let me disturb the debate too much - just wanted to let you know
before I post on the newsgroups that Susan Ellison is looking for three strong
backs in the Los Angeles area to help move some books into the storage facility
next week. It's about a half-day's work and it pays $35.00 plus a free signed
book. Contact me with a phone number and name if you're interested.
S: I know that this may be presumptuous, but it would really be preferable
to have a first name by which we could address you; initials get tiresome after
a while.
Now: Regarding your slams at Wylie and Sue--these are very nice people. Where
someone has asked for help or clarification, they have been quick to give.
You have to realize that their reaction to you is going to be tainted for a
while; after all, you DID come in brandishing colostomy bags, throwing their
contents helter-skelter at all around (now if that's not a metaphor no one wants
to hear again, I don't know what is).
You stated your express desire to inflame, incite, and basically piss people
(generally everyone here) off--so your turnaround into thoughtfulness IS a bit
hard to swallow. Should you keep it going, there will be more acceptance as
you go on.
You obviously have a talent at dialectic--though a bit wordy, I'm not one to
talk. I don't agree with you on most points, but what the hell--that's the spice
of life, yes?
Listen. Considering your entrance, it's going to take people a while to warm
up to you--keep writing thoughtful posts and back up your words, and it'll go
all the faster.
Finder, thanks for taking the time to comment on my latest post. I can
certainly understand that, in light of my invidious and belligerent debut to
this message board, you might not have much of an incentive to contribute to
any thread I might attempt to start. After all, unless you're Flash Gordon trying
to impress Prince Baron with your legendary bravery, why would you be willing
to stick your hand in the face of some unknown, unseen, and potentially dangerous
beast, an act performed with no guarantee that you'll be spared the poisoness
bite of crass chance and unpredictability? Which is not to say that I find pleasure
in being spiteful. No. Not at all. I do, however, understand your 'wariness';
it is not altogether unexpected.
In regard to my opening and closing comments, however, I think you've misconstrued
my tone (not a difficult thing to do, considering the voiceless way with which
I hammer out these posts.) I did not presume, in the closing of my last post,
that you would 'garner nothing', as you put it, from what I had to say. It is
likely that my choice of words was inapposite and, therefore, conveyed an unintended
meaning. I meant only to suggest that your convictions regarding Ellison are
most likely strong enough to withstand any ineffectual shaking that I might
give them. In addition, because my 'argument' is steeped in personal bias (like
a theosophical proposition) I really don't expect you to be persuaded to any
particular point of view that I might hold. Which is not to say that you will
garner nothing from my comments, of course. Clearly you have a firm grasp of
Ellison's work as a writer, and, if nothing else, I hope that you can find this
kind of antipodal debate at least more stimulating than an ice-cream headache.
Also, I am well aware of your ability to understand poly-semantic 'puerile babble',
the kind of which I am prone to producing at times. I place words in parenthetic
braces for no particular reason other than to add additional qualification to
words that may already be clear and unambiguous. This is a practice I've adopted,
in writing e-mail and posting messages to boards such as this, as a way of preempting
the onset of Textual Growth Syndrome, something which I'm susceptible to, I'm
afraid. Nobody likes to read long, tiresome messages, right? And although I
can see how you might have read my parenthetic "(that is, friendly)" as a patronization,
I can assure you, it was included as an abstract modifier and nothing more.
After all, the word magnanimous means "forgiving", not "friendly", and therefore,
by virtue of logic, should not be seen as a condescending explanation. (p.s.
Thanks for the applause regarding my passing of the SATs. My parents were proud
too.)
Now, about your comments: You said, ". . . very few writers dramatically alter
their voice when switching between forms" [?] This is an interesting claim,
in my opinion, because it indicates precisely what I am pointing out with respect
to Ellison's writing.
Given enough time all writers gradually develop a particular 'style' and distinct
mannerism that is recognizable in their writing. No one can discount the inimitable
styles of, say, Dostoevsky and Flaubert: where the one is fond of tuning his
reader's ear to a particular locale of the pathological in the human psyche---by
way of an energetic, highly abstract, and vigorous representation of 'the way
we think'---the other is happy to adorn scenes of compunction and dramatic 'profluence
born of guilt' with topical ornamentation and an all too obtrusive use of literary
convention. But as unchanging as a writer's style may be, a writer's voice should
never be static, unless he is writing nonfiction articles or essays. The difference
between an essayist and a writer of fiction is that the essayist is always present
in his writing, his 'voice' is the prevailing tenor; a writer of fiction, on
the other hand, is a silent party and speaks only in terms of dramatic action
and characterization, creating a voice for the work. A review of Dostoevsky's
'anarchist' articles or Flaubert's essays on the 'passing of Rouen' clearly
show this distinction when contrasted with their fictional work. And, of course,
the same can be said for a number of writers, although in Ellison's case, I'm
hard pressed to say that this distinction is very pronounced.
The hallmark of a good writer is the ability to inject the life of art into
something as abstract and unmoving as mere words. A writer's voice and the voice
of a written work of fiction are dissimilar and are not one and the same: the
former encapsulates the writer's world philosophy and sense of life; the latter
is the exploration of the human condition as evoked by an imagined event, scene,
or happening, all of which is filtered through the foci of character. A writer
of non-fiction does not have this obligation to fiction; he can go about venting
his criticism of the world without regard for the basic tenets of story, character,
plot, etc. (This is what I meant about conventions and tropes: not plot devices
and deus ex machinas.)
All that I'm saying about Ellison is that, in my opinion, he is always visible
behind the scenes, pulling levers and working gears, not unlike the old man
behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. Instead of presenting his fiction from
a character's point of view (or the view of any narrator, for that matter) Ellison
uses his own punchy rhetoric to fill the mouths of his characters and to pave
the way for the vague impression of 'having told a story'. This is the main
reason why Ellison 'the man' is constantly confused (in the minds of his fans)
with the so-called fiction that he writes. As a non-fiction writer, Ellison
is a genius-there is no refuting that fact. As a literary artist, however, he
leaves much to be desired.
Thanks again for your comments, Finder. As you stated, our little debate here
"ultimately comes down to personal taste". And don't get me wrong: I don't think
Ellison's work is valueless. He has produced a number of fine pieces, many of
which you have listed in Ellison's defense. I suppose, at bottom, I would simply
like to see Ellison produce more pieces that have lasting quality as opposed
to being merely the record-holder of 1,100 short stories (or whatever the number
is), most of which are repeated performances. Anywa, if we shall agree to disagree,
then so be it. All the same, I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on writing,
literature and the artistic way of life, whether related to HE or not.
WYLIE: If you have something to say to me--say it. Otherwise, go somewhere else
and feign your winsome impassivity, preferably for someone who cares.
SUE: I don't know how you expected me to respond to your post about turds in
punchbowls and slovenly run education systems. If that post was directed to
me, I must confess that I failed to see its relevance. Also, I would like to
say that I don't rank people by measure of their 'worthiness', nor do I subscribe
to the use of such callow pecking orders. If you prefer to view me as a priggish
'stuffed shirt', then go right ahead. Get off on it all you want. All I wanted
to do was debate. And if that means I feel that Finder's comments deserve the
respect of an 'intelligent' response (even one that might give you cause to
sarcastically label me a 'great literati') then I will respond as I see fit,
regardless of your opinion. If you see that as wasting time, that's your prerogative.
If I haven't responded to your post, you can rest assured that it is not due
to some malicious intent on my part. As I said: I didn't notice the relevance.
Besides, I thought you hated 'receiving intellectual arguments every time you
put in an order for a Big Mac'. Or was that comment merely a sophist's preamble
made to entertain the masses at my expense? Whatever your thoughts about me
may be, I should let you know that I am more than willing to participate in
a debate with you. However, I should also tell you, before hand, that I don't
know that much about 'high self-esteem kids', 'observing factless flamers' or
the cult of 'rock-stupidity' . . . although, with your instruction, I'm sure
that I could learn quite a lot.
S. Namirran
Hey, wylie - I can get behind that mistrust you feel. Guess I failed the
S.Narriman Worthiness Test - I'm still down here with the ignorant unwashed
masses, the ones that aren't worth the great literatti wasting time on to even
so much as acknowlege exist. Guess you made the initial cut, since you got a
nod. hee hee.. Keep working at it, and you, too, may satisfy the criteria necessary
to be worth wasting time on.. oh.. and congrats to you Finder, for being found
worthy.. ;-) ..or was that Peter? hee hee
Yaknow - it's OK with me that I'm unworthy, 'cause I'm not interested in people
who stereo-type, are pro-actively judgemental (ooo- doncha love it! a catch-phrase),
and are basicly about trying to prove they really are better than most other
people. Just not in the mood to be impressed, told what my opinion should be,
and affirm ego's today - or any other day.. Saying "sorry" doesn't cut it -
especially when the behaviour continues. It's a wonderful thing to be dismissed
by people who stick in your throat... It's easier to ignore them, and a lot
less boring.
Have a good one wylie - and say "HI" to a whale for me (hope you see LOTS of
them).
that was supposed to read "too quick." i need to hire an editor.
Sorry, Narriman, but your turn-around was way to quick and sacchrine for
me. Your arguments, now that you are presenting some, are just a reminder that
Ellison is not the only writer in the world and no one here was in danger of
forgetting that. By the way, whoever mentioned "Friday," during the cast-your-
favorite-sf-classic posts -- thanks! It's been about 12 years since I visited
that old friend, and it was long overdue. I managed to find my copy and review
some of the material that shaped me as a fifteen year old. No wonder . . .nevermind.
So, anyway, back to the present, you guys have your fun hashing this out. I'm
going away on my whale watching weekend and I'll catch up when I get back. 3
days with no phone, no computer, no job, no family . . .maybe I'll just stay
forever. Outa here. Wylie
S. - I'll admit that your first impression still doesn't sit well; it's
hard to find the patience to entertain a dialogue with someone whose first move
is to dump on the very people he or she to trying to seek the opinions and insight
of, regardless of the intent. From that, you have redeemed yourself - though
it didn't escape notice that you would compliment me at the outset of your post,
and yet do me the disservice of presuming I would garner nothing from your post
by the time you had finished. Does this mean I won't be polite in debating?
No. Just wary. Don't misunderstand, I have a very nice disposition - until I've
been bitten. (And as an aside, I know what magnanimous means, thank you. Enough
already, you passed your SATs, and we're all very proud of you...)
"Ellison's fiction does not stand far enough from his non-fiction to be considered
'different'." Excuse me? Putting aside for a moment that a writer's voice is
his voice, and very few writers dramatically alter that voice when switching
between forms, how can you possibly say that a fragile and tender tale such
as "Susan" is no different from an essay such as "When I Was A Hired Gun"? The
self-loathing narrator of "Final Shtick" versus any installment of "Harlan Ellison's
Watching"? Within types, HE does run in themes - lonliness and alienation pervade
much of his fiction, while his essays are all cut from a similar cloth. Of course,
there are pairs that support part of your arguement: "Jefty Is Five", for instance,
whose first-person narrator uses a similar language to what HE uses in his essays.
But does "Jefty" suffer because of this? On the contrary, one of the stories
major stengths is the intimacy of the narrative.
"The reason for this is because Ellison does not pay heed to literary convention
(which is not to say that conventions are the saving grace of good literature.
However, many fine novelists have taken convention and re-invented it..." Why
should Harlan Ellison - or any person of a creative nature - be penalized for
not measuring up to what some group has deemed "the norm"? Where do new directions
come from? I consider it in jazz terms: where would it be as a musical form
if Miles Davis and John Coltrane had not only pushed the envelope, but completely
changed its size and shape? And again, HE's experimental works, such as "The
Deathbird" and "The Beast That Shouted Love At The Heart Of The World", which
play with structure and try new things, bring the reader a freshness, a new
way of looking at storytelling. It doesn't always work when attempted - for
example, as different as it was, I found the film "Pulp Fiction" an affront
to film-making. But you never know until you try it out, both for the force
creating the work, and the public taking it in...
Regarding the lack of character development and the way HE dances around big
issues in too small a space - ultimately, the writer must decide what is needed
to tell the story and convey the desired mood and intent. Not every tale requires
a full slate of completely fleshed out characters in order to make its point,
and not every short story needs to explore in depth the questions it raises.
It is enough, in my opinion, to introduce the theme, to present some arguements,
and leave it to the audience to explore further its ideas, methods, the feelings
it elicits.
It ultimately comes down to personal tastes; Rick mentions breezing through
the new Tom Wolfe novel; personally, I've never been able to get into Wolfe
- but I enjoy Faulkner, who is an acquired taste. Some people swear by their
pulp reprints; others decry the pulps as utter crap. Ellison isn't your cup
of tea, and that's fine, and you've made some interesting points. I read Ellison
because he touches an emotional chord in me, because I like the way he writes,
and because I think he's entertaining. He indulges in hyperbole, true; he can
be ascerbic, yes; but for me, he weaves a hell of a tale. And on matters of
artistic taste - which I argue will always vary from person to person, regardless
of the opinion of the masses - the most we can hope for is to agree to disagree.
--Finder
SUE - We're working on the "off-topic" board option, I'm not happy with
the various WWWBoards out there and we're rolling our own. For now, don't sweat
it - this ain't some moderated newsgroup where you'll get attacked for "OT"
material.
S. - Thanks for coming back with something solid, you surprised me. I admire
someone who is as willing to question their own assumptions as they are those
of others. It looks like you've got a good thread going, so pardon me if I ride
herd on it instead of jumping in with both feet.
I will mention you won't get any argument from me about Ellison's ideas about
great art requiring great effort - I've read enough about different great writers
to know that some write without effort and some sweat over every last word.
I think the same goes for readers - I read Tom Wolfe's latest in a couple of
evenings, yet I've been creeping through the first 100 pages of the Gormenghast
trilogy for the past week. I also think that at a certain point you have to
put aesthetics aside - if you continually are disappointed by a writer's work
there's probably something more at fault than aesthetics.
Thanks for the comments, Finder. It's nice to see that you have a cordial
and magnanimous (that is, friendly) disposition, especially in the wake of my
less-than-amiable first impression, one which, I suspect, still does not sit
well with you [?]
I do not discount the fact that Harlan Ellison gives his writing careful attention
and meticulous review during its production, at least insofar as he understands
the writing process. However, I must argue my contention that Ellison's 'revision',
for all its effort, does not contribute much to the development of a rich, fully-rounded
fiction. I am sure that, as you said, he often 'tweaks his fiction prior to
reprinting, and may even rewrite whole sections (although, from many who know
him personally, I've heard that this is rare.) To me, Ellison's writing is similar
in kind to that moribund trend of modern literary impressionism, or post-modern
fauvism, that became the trademark for boorish, semantic jingoists such as Thomas
Pynchon, William Gass, John Barth and Donald Barthelme during the 60's and 70's.
With such a diffuse style of writing, one which relies upon stream of consciousness,
'experiments' with structure, and an almost patent disregard for depth of character,
what really is there to revise? A few words here and there, to perhaps smooth
a cadence, or make a sentence less arrythmic? Some small show of finesse with
respect to what is the original intention of art.
Should non-fiction and fiction be compared and contrasted by the same set of
rules? Is it de rigueur to make and defer to such claims: of course not, as
long as the writer writes with this understanding in mind. Ellison's fiction
does not stand far enough from his non-fiction to be considered 'different'.
In all of Ellison's fiction there exists a familiar narrative tone that is unmistakably
Ellison 'the man'. It is not so much a style of writing as it is a style of
gut-spilling. The words may be different, the 'characters' may have different
names, but the same sense of frenetic word-crunching is always the same, the
same mask of Dis-Pollyanna (as one Ellison critic called it) is always there.
It is always present, like an obtrusive narrator in a badly written novel. The
reason for this is because Ellison does not pay heed to literary convention
(which is not to say that conventions are the saving grace of good literature.
However, many fine novelists have taken convention and re-invented it: Martin
Amis, for example, has shown time and again how fertile tropes and devices are
for being mined anew.) Ellison's characters are, at best, only half-realized
and cursorily portrayed, in spite of his talk about how 'good' writers convey
the body language and gestures of their characters with considerable flourish.
Sometimes I even think Hemingway's characters had more depth. (I would provide
you with examples, if I were not at work and had recourse to my Ellison library.)
Every time I sit down to read an Ellison story, I do so anticipating an inundation
of comic-bookish dialogue,
snappy single sentence attention grabbers, made in lieu of providing clear transitions,
and a whole host of sententious tap dancing around subjects that require much
more exploration beyond that provided by a happy-go-lucky game of literary artifice.
At bottom, I realize that my argument is an aesthetic one. I am forcing Ellison's
writing through my own criticism of what 'good' writing is and should be. I
am merely stating my 'informed' opinion (what a cow-beaten phrase), and I hope,
Finder, you can find something useful in what I've said-although I doubt you
have. I am interested to know exactly who do you consider Ellison's peers to
be? The answer to that question qualifies every criticism of comparisons that
follows.
S. Namirran
So, if someone wrote something such as "The Cheese Stands Alone" in one sitting,
without revision, they should be considered a 'genius'?
I'm sensing the build up of a massive, enthymeme-induced antinomy. Oh, the horror!
:)
Imagine my surprise when I learned I'd been renamed Peter; not that I mind
- Peter seems to be a very stand-up guy - but it did throw me. If I was suspicious,
I'd believe it to be another haphazard test. Bygones. (I think I also said something
about people not doing research these days...go figure...the self-fulfilling
post...) Anyway, onward- NAMIRRAN: to tackle a couple of your points: "It is
well known that he hardly ever revises his work..." - on the contrary, if you
check his copyright pages, he often tweaks his fiction prior to reprinting.
With regards to essays, reviews, etc., these do remain static to the time they
were written, but HE has proven very good at using his 'Interim Memos' to incorporate
new or changed information on the topic within the essay. Check out "The Day
That I Died" in the Edgeworks edition of Stalking the Nightmare for an example.
Should nonfiction be subject to the same revision concept as fiction? Personally,
I would say no; the two forms are created with different intents, and born of
different parts of the writer - and nonfiction, by its nature, is linked to
the time and circumstance under which it was created. Would a reviewer who,
say, hated "Chinatown" be worth their salt if they went back and revised that
review ten years later when they've discovered its merits? Of course not; most
would simply create a follow-up to say, in essence, 'My viewpoint has changed.'
I don't know that you make a strong enough case for a lack of craft on HE's
part; at what turns does he ignore structure to a greater degree than his peers?
While it's true that his personality is infused with his essays and reviews,
that goes with the territory; there are bits of him in his fiction too, but
can you cite an example of a piece of fiction where his ego, inserted into the
story, actually undermines the progress of the narrative? Going back again to
Stalking The Nightmare, even a tale like "The Hour That Stretches", in which
HE uses himself as a character, unspools cleanly, in part because it uses an
honest (surprisingly honest, some might argue) characterization of how Harlan
Ellison interacts with the world.
This is not to say every word that drips from HE's pen is sheer perfection.
He's written some dogs - and writers will tell you that sometimes, in retrospect,
certain fruit should have been allowed to die on the vine, no matter how ripe
it looked. But overall, his body of fiction is literate, is emotionally compelling,
and has a polish to it that you simply don't toss off the top of your head.
In my opinion, if HE could sit down and have, say, "Paladin of the Lost Hour"
or "Go Towards The Light" or "The Cheese Stands Alone" simply flow unbidden
from his pen, word for word as they have come to exist today, without a single
alteration from his heart and soul to the final pre-publication proofing, then
we shouldn't be calling him a literary artist. We should be calling him a genius.
Finder
Er . . . my comments to "Peter" were meant, of course, for Finder. (What
can I say? I suffer from aphasia and I constantly confuse names. Ha!) Incidentally,
I must confess that I have not read "Pulling Hard Time" yet, though I will do
so as soon as possible; I have yet to encounter a story written by Harlan that
can be aptly described by the word "tight".
S. Namirran
FINDER: Thanks, I'll check it out. ---- SUE: On a related topic, kids who
commit violence because they were "disrespected." Of course, their idea of disrespect
is when you don't step aside and let them pass. How dare you expect to share
the sidewalk! I wonder how different the world would be if people had to specifically
choose when intercourse would result in the birth of a child instead of the
uncounted (and often unwanted) surprises that join us everyday.
I would like to say "Thank you" to all of those who responded to my preceeding
post(s). I was anticipating a torrent of enmity and heated dissent to follow,
as is usually the case when such an incendiary display of ill-will and unfounded
personal attack is conveyed to a literate assemblage. However, much to my surprise,
the decorum with which many of you responded has shown me, once again, that,
despite the fair-minded opinion that I have of myself, I also possess a monstrous
penchant for over-simplifying my fellow human beings. And for that, if nothing
else, I am duly contrite.
All of you were correct in your individual assessments: my "experiment" was
ineptly fashioned and stupidly packaged, and my use of mean-spirited commentary
worked toward achieving no discernible end. Certainly no 'decent discussion'
(as Wylie put it) is at all possible when coming from such a hostile beginning,
one originating, to my own chagrin, with a 90's Cafe-culture version of callow
rant; something I'm not too impressed by, on the whole.
Rick: Yes, I was poorly imitating Ellison's bluster and bellicose 'way with
words', and yes, I was playing the 'aggrieved and surprised victim' (that much
is fairly obvious). Hopefully, you will find it in your heart to overlook that
first glimpse of my disparaging nature. I'm really a rather charming person.
No-really, I am. (Ha!) As far as using 'cliched single quotation marks' is concerned,
all I can say is that I would have preferred to used italics for every tenth
word (like Unca Harlan) but sadly the message board doesn't permit the use of
such textual ornamentation. (p.s. loved the culinary metaphor)
Peter (San Jose): Thanks for mentioning the Wall Street Journal article. It's
always amusing to see journalists ridicule Academia; the irony is too absurd
to miss out on, if only because nearly 90% of the journalists working in the
world today (and I personally know more of them than I care to think about)
are the same people who, secretly, are trying every way imaginable to become
the same 'intellectual flower arrangers' whom they so candidly mock in their
articles. People just need to get along, I think. Back-biting is so passe, anyway.
Wylie: Indeed, stereotyping is Evil. All personal attack aside, I hope to begin
a decent discussion.
Peter: Thanks for tactfully making an attempt at describing your opinion of
Ellison's writing, in light of the grotesque context with which I put forth
my claims. Stream of consciousness is, indeed, a better description. Also, the
hornet analogy was hilarious: I even had to share it with friends. :)
Maggie: Yes, I am guilty-I was casting for a "rabid response", as you put it.
Hopefully, I can put that behind me?
Now, let me rephrase my question, so that I can open up a genuine dialogue,
with whomever wishes to contribute.
In many interviews, reviews, introductions, epilogues, prologues, commentaries,
etc. et. al. featuring the words of Harlan Ellison, I have encountered again
and again certain phrases and seemingly heartfelt ideas which are, to me, highly
self-contradictory. I am referring to Ellison's words on "craft", how Art is
the product of hard labor, and how so many writers lack this ability. HE lauds
names such as R. Silverberg, A. E. Van Vogt, K. Wilhelm, U. K. LeGuin and I.
Asimov (among others) for their dedication to craft and their fashioning of
graceful, elegant prose. HE talks of writers such as Faulkner and Joyce, and
how they revealed the human condition with uncompromising clarity, in words
that were carefully shaped to challenge the minds of the coming modern world.
HE mocks the use of computers for writing because they "make writers less alert",
they turn good writers into slovenly button-pushers.
All of the comments that Ellison makes on 'craft' and 'Art as labor' seem hollow
to me, if only because his own writing shows very little with respect to either
of these creative merits. It is well known that he hardly ever revises his work,
though he speaks about the "pieces" the he is currently working on as though
they were Artistic Artifacts requiring long gestation periods. Meanwhile, brilliant
writers such as Joyce Carol Oates, John C. Gardner, V.S. Naipaul, Myriam Hyllet
and Alexander Pirov are charged with not revising enough, or criticized with
the old Analysis as Paralysis epithet.
What is everyone's assessment of Ellison's writing? Peter mentioned stream of
consciousness in Ellison's writing (no doubt the vestige of an early infatuation
with Joyce). Are Ellison's comments on 'craft' valid? Can someone who makes
it a point of ignoring (or, in some cases, dissembling) structure in art make
a tenable argument about a writer being too rigid, too structured? My personal
opinion is that Ellison is one hell of a literary critic and pop culture gadfly,
a person without whom the world would not spin properly, if at all. As a literary
artist, however, I find fault with most of what he has written, with a few exceptions
of course (Shattered Like a Glass Goblin, On the Down Side, et. al.-pieces in
which he sidesteps his own ego and actually lets a narrative unfold that isn't
delivered with his all too familiar need to perambulate.) Anyone care to comment?
All comments, flames, hate-mails and "rabid responses" are welcome. :)
S. Namirran
I don't know who this S. Narriman is, but the uncivilized tone of his/her
missive is a tad insulting. Although I have taken all sorts of pleasure in reading
the constant exchanges amongst friends and foes of Harlan alike in this website,
I find Mr./Ms. Narriman's attacks rather unbecoming. This person seems to confuse
insult with criticism. And that, my dear Mr./Ms. Narriman, is not conducive
to the kind of intelligent, thoughtful dialogue/discussions/arguments generated
by Harlan's work. Love him or hate him, his work deserves critical, thoughtful,
intelligent respect. Not vitriol. And I should know. As a music/TV/movie/theater
reviewer for one of Chicago's two leading Spanish language weeklies, I have
fallen prey to the same kind of offensive, hysterical insults just because I
don't happen to share a reader's opinion. Just because I expressed my INFORMED
opinion (and got paid for it), whereas most readers are bamboozled by the constant
barrage of nonsensical images and gossipy information which are the daily fare
of Spanish-language TV, radio and newspapers. In fact, many Latinos, being the
rowdy bunch that they are, always request (nay, DEMAND) my head. In their eyes,
I should be fired for criticizing their idol(s). So much for the First Amendment.
But, alas, that is what we get for living in a Jerry Springer/Sally Jesse Rafael
culture. Not an informed opinion, but venom. Not intelligent, constructive criticism,
but sheer nasty trashings.
Hi guys! Dropped in for my daily lurking session, and WHOA! Nothing like
a turd in the punch bowl to get the conversation rolling at a party.. *FLUSH*
Aint it sad the education system caved in to the parental demands for ALL kids
to be Above Average, and schools now prioritize building high self-esteem in
kids - leaving boring stuff, like critical thinking and logic waaaaay down the
list where only the nerds will find them (hopefully in some esoteric college
course not required for a degree). Ain't it tragic they are succeeding in that
goal. All those youngsters feel so Gooood, about their ignorance and inablilities
- so secure and righteous about their instant expertise in any chosen area...
*sigh* So many kids with so much self-assurance, so little justification - such
high expectations, so few resources to achieve.. And a new hatch every June..
Doesn't make me look forward to the coming decades. I hate having 'intellectual'
arguements everytime I give my order for a Big Mac to the expert at the counter..
And why is it the truly rock-stupid always think it's everyone else who "doesn't
get it"?
This mini-rant is sponsored by PISS-OFF (People Inured to Stupid Self-esteem
- Observing Factless Flamers)
Other than that, life is pretty good... ;-) ...Got caught up with all the gotta-do's,
and am finally getting into some of the wanna-do's. Well, mostly one of Hubby's
wanna-do's - he's into collecting swords now.. So he drags me off with him on
his quests for steel - and guess whom he gave a sword and dagger.. Yeah, the
kind that chop off body bits - or in my case, make trimming the trees and bushes
in the yard a spectator sport for the neighbors.. His new hobby means I do a
lot of sewing, so he has something to wear with his swords. *rolls eyes* Where
DO you go where that Three Muskateers outfit is appropriate attire? I think
he's covered for the next decade of Halloweens...
*blank* hee hee... Guess that will be enough for now...
And, Rick - where is that second board or tread for us chronicly off-topic folks?
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
Having struck at the hook once by poking fun, and then having seen the
example of those who add more constructively to the debate (however it was started),
I see that the latter is the road better taken. Time to go to _Slippage_ and
check out “Pulling Hard Time.” Thank you, Finder.
You know, back in the mists of time, when I was in college, I had an English
prof who loathed what she called "garbled English." She had friends in the business
world who would give her sentences from memos, etc, and then we would be required
to translate them, to reduce them to their simplest form. It was pretty darn
tough because so much of it meant absolutely nothing.
NARRIMAN - if you were waiting for this group of people to degenerate into vague,
adolescent, invective filled, garbled English, I'm sure that there is someplace
out on the web where your "experiment" in human behaviour will achieve the desired
results. In the mean time, if you actually have something interesting to contribute,
feel free. However, I would strongly suggest that you be specific. If all you
are looking for is a rabid response, might I suggest some sort of sports related
site? Football frequently provokes rabid responses, perhaps someone there will
provide you with the ranting you seem to be in search of.
SHANE - Mentioning as you did finding HE on the Celebrity Athiest List,
you can also find a reference or two to the man on one of the Urban Legends
web sites (sadly, I have misplaced the URL); and on a more amusing note, Axiom
Information Resources publishes a Celebrity Directory, which includes a citation
for HE - however, it lists him as an "Actor" (doesn't anyone do research any
more?) Of course, it also lists William Shatner as an actor, so maybe they just
aren't sure what that word means...Finder
PETER - It's not just in academic papers - the business world is littered
with inept people who lace their conversations with a peppering of catchphrases
they uncovered in Business Week and other bits of double-talk, solely to make
everyone else think they're in touch with what's going on. Or, more succinctly,
Dilbert is a lot closer to real life than we should be comfortable with. NAMIRRAN
- I think the descriptive you're looking for is 'stream of consciousness' rather
than the more psychologically oriented 'free-association'. And your scientific
method leaves much to be desired - the written equivilent of spraying gasoline
on a hornet's nest, giving it a good shake, and waiting around to see if the
hornets sting you stupid. If you want to debate the point of whether or not
Harlan Ellison is of the esteem his fans and associates hold him in, bring it
on. I'll even get the ball rolling: far from whiney or bellicose, I find "Pulling
Hard Time" to be crisp and succinct, tragic in both the fate that befalls Charlie,
and in the total loss of humanity of this future penal system. Compassion is
as dead to mankind as the prisoners in their VR punishments appear to be, the
prisoners stored like so much furniture. Neat. Tidy. Soulless. It is a tale
told with a visually compelling language, in a matter-of-fact voice that does
not offer a pro or con bias, but leaves the decision of the merit or madness
of this world to the reader. Is it the greatest story ever written in the english
language? Probably not. But it certainly holds its own on the high side of HE's
work, not as lyrical or poetic as some - but certainly more arresting than others
(no pun intended). Your turn. Finder
NARRIMAN--what, exactly, did you want to discuss? if it's the merits of
Ellison's writing, why be so beligerent? if it's the intelligence of his readers,
then you are guilty of stereotyping on a gross scale. that makes the greatest
argument regarding your own intelligence. do you really have a problem with
each and every one of us? have you engaged any of us in a decent discussion
that could possibly explain or excuse your mean-spirited attempt to provoke
a fight? now that i think on it, your posts read like sour grapes and nothing
more. shades of shaz . . .wylie
Shaz! Bubbie! LTNS!
I recently read an article in the Wall Street Journal (Don't ask me why
I was reading the Wall Street Journal) about the appalling crimes against the
english language committed in the name of Academicism. Basically, it pointed
out that most academic papers, including english, are so laced with jargon and
babble that their sole purpose of existance is to cow the reader into having
a sense of intellectual inferiority to the paper's author. In other words, it
gives the writers of said trash a feeling of power and superiority. Thus a person
who spends most of their time constructing opulently ostentatious prose rather
than stating their argument usually doesn't have much of an argument to state.
Oh was there a discussion here?
---Peter (subtlety is not my middle name.... Actually my middle name is Padraic)
Mr. or Ms. Narriman - my dear initialed one, you are welcome to your opinion,
and you throw down a gauntlet I'm sure a number of people here will pick up.
However, try not to play the aggrieved and surprised victim when someone responds
to your "blatant antagonism" by being antagonized, or when your comments fail
to draw a spirited and intelligent response within a half hour of your posting
them. For my part, I see nothing factual, nothing within the same genus as literary
criticism, nothing but the same sort of bluster and bellicosity you accuse Harlan
Ellison of propping up his talent upon - although I will comment that I find
this quite ironic.
Surely, if you possess the insight and talent to be qualified make these sort
of criticisms, couldn't you do a better job of expressing them? And surely if
you're savvy enough to see through Ellison like gauze, aren't you also too savvy
to play the innocent when you drop such an obvious troll and someone takes the
bait?
If you're capable, try to give your views voice without the cliched single quote
marks around every tenth word and without the childish insults. I and I'm sure
others will be happy to respond - until then, EVERYONE, try not to hit the hook
too hard, okay? And S., since I'm also sure you know it is difficult to debate
someone based purely on an opinion they post without example or reason to support
it, try to put something "on the table" besides ugly words and a bad attitude.
There's nothing worse than the host who serves only an empty plate and a bottle
full of bile.
Work what out, Gary? Determining how many times you've dredged your memory
for something intelligent to say, notwithstanding your repeated use of kitsch
bio-jargon and effluvia culled from snappy dermatological infomercials?
What? No high-minded riposte? No challenge based upon literary reference
or (at the very least) some personal opinion--whether 'informed' or 'not'[?]
With my post below, I had hoped to rouse not anger, as Inept Metaphor Man (aka
Bill Dennis) suggests: I meant only to 'put on the table', as it were, the unfamiliar
and never-touched-upon perspective that Ellison 'just ain't all that good'.
In truth, I must confess that I did this mainly as an experiment, to see for
myself what sort of response I would receive from HIS shell-shocked (and sometimes
ostensibly mind-barren) fans. I had hoped to receive comments that were more
informative, perhaps even stimulating in a 'literary criticism' sort of way.
At the very least, I had hoped to start an open discussion on Mr. Ellison's
writing. I concluded that the best way to begin this 'confab' was to initiate
the it with the invidious sound of blatant antagonism. This, of course, was
my mistake: I callowly assumed that HIS 'audience' was as self-respecting and
non-childish as HE. Thanks, Bill, for letting me know otherwise. (p.s. "What's
up doc?")
I'd reply at length, but this photosynthesis is tough work...can anybody
help me out with how to finish the beta carotene molecule?
Did'ja ever notice that people who find something "too absurd to comment
on" take at least eleven lines to comment on it? I think the only reason Bugs
Bunny there mentioned carrots is because one must be the only thing plugging
his asshole to keep his brains from running out his anus. His remarks are obvioiusly
meant to rouse anger. Pay him to heed. -- Billy D.
It is interesting to see that Mr. Ellison still continues to receive high
praise and approbation for what his herd of followers like to call his distinct
'style' and literary 'range' when, very clearly, Ellison's 'style' is nothing
more than a free-association game played out in a pugnacious, shock-the-masses
manner, albeit with some small measure (a sugar-coating, really) of self-effacement,
the kind of which is usually added as an after-thought, if only to pre-defuse
the acerbity of his 'literate' readers. At best, Ellison is a 'wit', a sagacious
clown with a gift for producing maundering banter. As far as his 'style' and
ability as a 'writer' are concerned, however, the very notion that HE is a 'superior
talent' is far too absurd to make comment on. Over the years, I have grown to
appreciate HIS place in the literary 'world', and I could not imagine speculative
fiction without HIS presence. However, to raise HIM to such a level of stature
merely on the merit of his whiny and self-serving penchant for producing the
same old, tired, whiny-meant-as-bellioce prose, goes beyond the limits of general
stupidity. I sometimes have the feeling that Ellison's 'audience' has the collective
I.Q. of a carrot.
...After which, if the meaning still isn't clear, you can tap the brains
of the researchers who found that numeric code that reveals prophecies when
applied to the Bible - I'm sure there's a wealth of precognitive gems in the
title alone...
...And if reading the intro doesn't work, read the story upside down and
then translate the complete text into gaelic.
---Peter
Steven- three words for you. Read The Intro. It tells you all about the
story in there. (::sigh::WhydoIevenbother?)
Barney- saw that li'l sarcastic streak coming out in your answer...
I'm trying to be sarcastic right now, but I'm down with the flu... again...
so I'm not gonna bother. Why do I feel like we're experiencing a weird Xenogenesis
moment? First its the writers who are getting little school kids sending them
letters that basically say "Do my homework for me" and now its the fans. I just
thank goodness we're not on another "homophobia in TMWRCCA" jag. I don't think
I have the energy for one of those right now.
---Peter (I feel like the scrapings on the bottom of a pot)
Geeez! And all this time *I* thought "Tick-Tock Man" was a thinly veiled
reference to Ellison's obsession with watch cleaning.. with which fills the
hours between re-runs of Rush Limbaugh while the poor dear is house-bound due
to his agoraphobia... *shrug*
Learn something new every day...
FYI: Out this week, by Feb. 10th, in fine bookstores everywhere: THE CROOK
FACTORY by Dan Simmons (whom HE helped get started in a career of writing).
It's a great suspenseful, literary thriller, involving Hemingway, Cuba and WW
II espionage. I've read it twice since October of last year. Definitely what
HE would call a toad-strangler. -- Out here, DTS.
Geez, and here was me, thinking that HE was Pretty Alice. I mean, you know,
he's got that snitch mentality, and he's such a mainstream go-with-the-flow
guy . . .
Actually, I don't think HE was the TickTockMan. My take - you know all
those marbles? Those were HIS....
Hush. Don't give the game away. The goal is for one in twenty to actually
turn that analysis in. It's OK to insult the customer as long as they don't
get it until they're driving away. Be vewwy vewwy qwiet - I'm hunting wabbits!
Good one, Barney! (don't ya hate it when someone who, whiles obviously
working on an assignment about a writer for some literature course, logs onto
the net and starts asking other people to do their thinking for them?). Out
here, DTS.
BARNEY - You are my hero - I bow before you in obvious supplication. Finder
***Steven*** Harlan is a notoriously prompt person who makes it a point
to arrive on time and when work is required of him usually produces it early.
He is what the British call a clockwatcher and feels it is more important to
be prompt than to be good. His literary point of identification of course, would
be with the Ticktockman. The downside is that this rigidness and brutal consitency
in his nature has left him verbally constipated to the point that extemporization
and off the cuff remarks are quite beyond him. It's tragic really. Good luck.
This is more of a cry for help! Please reply or give me some information
regarding Harlan's short story "Repent Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman and
how it may reflect his life. PLEASE!!!
The Ellison Psi-Factor will appear the week of February 22nd.
Does anyone know when Harlan's episode of "Psi-Factor" will show? From
the web site (www.psifactor.com) I discovered that it indeed shows in the Seattle
area (Saturdays at 11:30 pm- I think - I have it written down somewhere!) Anyway,
I was impressed by the clip on Tom Snyder, and don't want to miss it!
***Hey Folks*** Off topic - It would seem that all is not lost in this
culture after all. I have had a great movie week. Last night I rented "Henry
Fool" which is a sort of Greek tragedy of a story about a... well rent it and
let me know what you thought.
AND I've just returned from the early show of "Gods and Monsters" which was
nearly sold out in its second week!!
What an outstanding freekin' movie. It's a period piece about the last days
in the life of director Jim Whales [Frankenstein/Bride of Frankenstein/Showboat
etc.] and features some nice work by Brandon Fraser and a dead solid perfect
cameo by two unknowns as Karloff and Lancester.
Of course, movie karma dictates I'll have to sit through some real turkeys before
I have this much movie fun again but I can take it. Did that Fritz Lang biopic
ever come out? Ah well, have fun!
ELLISON AUDIOPHILES, FYI: Dove audio will release (sometime this month,
although release dates change sometimes) GOODBYE, COLUMBUS and FIVE OTHER SHORT
STORIES by Phillip Roth, featuring a slew of Kosher readers like Elliot Gould,
Ron Silver and Harlan Ellison...who must have an extensive reading contract
with Dove, cause in April they'll release THE BUSINESS and OTHER STORIES by
Jay McInerey, featured readers include Harlan Ellison. That's all the news from
the front. Informationally, the man.
I came across Harlan's name on The Celebrity Atheist List:
http://www.primenet.com/~lippard/atheistcelebs/
Ellison doesn't just read, he performs!---------------------------Author,
Harlan Ellison, dons his acting hat for this performance of Ben Bova's CITY
OF DARKNESS. With years of practice performing his own short storys for Harlan
Ellison's Record Collection and doing voice overs for such cartoons as MOTHER
GOOSE AND GRIMM, PIRATES OF DARKWATER, and several appearences on the live-action,
BABYLON 5, Ellison has honed his vocal craft to a fine edge. The story is good,
but the main selling point is the riveting performance by Ellison, which is
more then worth the price of admission. If Harlan had been on the radio in the
30's he would have been a star. The story is kind of a cross between Ellison's
WEB OF THE CITY and A BOY AND HIS DOG, but without the same depth. Still, I
recommend it. -----------------------------------Synopsis----------------------
Teenager Ron Morgan sneaks away from his safe, suburban home to taste the forbidden
fruits of New York City --open for two months each summer as a sort of morbid
recreational park. Years earlier the metropolis had been closed by the government
in response to crime and pollution. Now gangs prey on those who venture onto
its dark streets. Trapped inside the city when the dome is closed at the season's
end, Ron's
recreational journey turns into a struggle to survive. -----------List Price
$18.00, Amazon.Com Price $12.60----------- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0787117269/qid=918141296/sr=1-1/002-7008554-6777823
**RICK** Is he the fellow who wrote "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A
Hat" ? Great stuff. And if that's the case, you might like "The Three Christs
of Yipsilanti" if you can find a copy. A doctor took three patients who all
thought they were Jesus and stuck them in a room and let them argue it out.
You can't have fun like THAT with mental patients any more. [Yes Virginia, my
tongue is somewhere in my cheek there].
*** I took a break from the main event here to catch up on some unread Joe R.
Landsdale ["Two Bear Mombo"] and Howard Wolldrop ["Night of the Cooties"]. What
the hell is in the water down there anyways? These bastard children of Robert
E. Howard are NUTS! Speaking of big bad bob if you can find a copy, rent "The
Whole Wide World" Beautiful piece of work.
Peter - the movie is "At First Sight" IIRC, and it is based on a book by
Oliver Sachs. I don't know which one and I've read damn near everything he's
written - I think he must have heavily adapted one of the sections of AN ANTHROPOLIGIST
ON MARS...
Speaking of books to movies. I was reading a review for that new Val Kilmer
movie about the guy who was blind and then he could see. I heard the movie was
crap and had no desire to see it but was curious as to what the critics thought.
The review I read mentioned the fact that the story was based on a book. Okay,
I have no problem with that. However, the reviewer went on to say that although
she hadn't read the book, she was sure that it dealt with certain issues a lot
better than the movie did. I realize that movie reviewers aren't paid to review
books, but this was ridiculous. she might as well have said "Although I haven't
read it, I'm certain that Heart of Darkness is much better than Apocalypse Now."
Or "Although I haven't read it, I'm sure my birth certificate is a lot more
interesting than my life."
Okay, I'm done now. That was bugging me and I needed to rant. You are all free
to be about your business.
Smile!
---Peter
For those of you who can't get enough of casting actors in classic science
fiction, there's a web page about Alfred Bester which has the "The Stars My
Destination" Casting Game. The url is "www4.ncsu.edu/~mcmesser/bester". They
list possible actors for all major roles in this book. Mel Gibson and Bruce
Willis lead for Gully Foyle, with Harrison Ford in third, but I think all three
actors are all too old for Foyle, who I picture to be in his mid 20s- maybe
Ewan McGregor from "Trainspotting" and the upcoming Star Wars film would be
good.
I think what they both have in common is a real talent for sticking their
heads up their own rectums...
ALEX AGAIN: i'm really intrigued at the thought of christian slater or
eric bogosian (sp) being able to play the same character. can you elaborate
on that for me? i haven't read the book you refered to. later. wylie
ALEX: angelina jolie as friday jones? i think you may be on to something.
she can be soft and innocent and really tough at the same time. good call. i
read Friday when i was fifteen and it seriously affected how i see things. means
i rarely fit in here in this conservative culture...too much heilein, too young...and
no one understands...damn him anyway. anyone know what i mean?--wylie
Hmm ... As long as we're casting SF movies, how about HE's screenplay for
Norman Spinrad's _Bug Jack Barron_ starring either Eric Bogosian or Christian
Slater?
Or Bester's _The Demolished Man_ With Alan Rickman asLincoln Powell and Jon
Voight as Ben Reich?
Or an adaptation of Fritz Leiber's series of "Big Time" stories, with Sam Elliott
as the Old Soldier?
A Silver John the Balladeer movie with Harry Connick, Jr. playing Manly Wade
Wellman's beloved character?
Sturgeon's More Than Human starring someone who could be a big guy, but was
finely featured enough to play effeminate?
Asimov's The Ugly Little Boy with Kathy Bates? Or a Robot Detective series with
Nick Nolte playing Elijah Bailey and Guy Whassisname from _L.A. Confidential_
as R. Daneel Olivaw?
Heinlein's Friday with Angelina Jolie?
(Hey, this is fun ...)
Bester's "The Stars My Destination" is indeed one of the great master works
of science fiction. I'm not sure about Harrison Ford playing Gully Foyle, though.
I picture a younger Robert DeNiro in the role - Sean Penn, maybe? I know the
film rights of TSMD are owned by someone, I just can't remember who right off
hand.
Charlie - GREAT BOOK !
"Gulley Foyle is my name and Terra is my nation -
Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination"
Figures. I'll be in AZ the last week of Feb. Why can't these people consult
with me first? Is it SO difficult to make a phone call? Grrrrr...Mitch
Just finished reading Tiger Tiger/The Stars My Destination by Bester. Just
as fresh today as I'm sure it was some 45 years ago. I'd love to see a movie
of it with Harrison Ford as Gully Foyle and a HE script to boot. Charlie
ALL: Well, things have firmed up enough that I feel I can tell you that
Glendale Community College (in Arizona) and Arizona State University West will
host speaking engagements by Harlan Ellison.----------Harlan will speak on March
10th at 11:00 am on the G.C.C. campus, 5902 West Olive Avenue, in the Student
Union Hall. That same night at 7 or 8 p.m, he will speak at ASU West, 4701 West
Thunderbird Road University Center Building, La Sala Ballroom. Both functions
are free on a first come-first seated basis. Susan Ellison should be providing
Rick with further information as it becomes available.
PEGGY- I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm glad for your good memories.--------------------Currently
48 with a projected hhigh of 68 F.
Hi Folks,
Back from my trip east. Thanks for your thoughts and well wishes. I'm sad to
say that my grandmother passed away, but she did so quickly and did not endure
any extending suffering, which is about the best you can hope for in these situations.
I'll miss her, but have very happy memories.
HE Fantasies? Geez, I already got a private hour call, anything else would just
be gravy. Maybe dinner with the Ellison's at their favorite hole-in-the-wall
restaurant that isn't widely known with fabulous food and then HE gets up and
does some vocal jazz improvisation at the piano after dinner.
A Harlan award? Well, in addition to excellence in writing - touched on by several
others - I would say the nominees would also have to exhibit a positive contribution
besides their writing. This was something I think Harlan finds more important
than writing - helping others in a tangible, personal, positive way. If a grant
to the writer is not possible, than the award could be a donation in their name
to an appropriate charity.
Bookstores. Hmmm. Well, I can't help it. I buy 'em when and where I find 'em,
online or in person, used or new, indy or major. Hey, there's gotta be some
advantage to being well-paid oil scum if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere!
Which brings me to my final happy point - I've survived all the major layoffs
this week and still have a job! I'll be transferred back to Anchorage at some
point (which means giving up my time off and extra pay, which is no small bucks)
but it's still a job!!
Ta,
Peg
JIM HESS: currently, Amazon.com is listing EDGEWORKS 5 as an August '99
release. Informationally, the man.
Dare I ask when slavering and ever-waiting hoardes might find THE GLASS
TEAT by way of The Edgeworks Series in bookstores?
Until next time. . .
I must admit to being of two minds on the B & N issue. On the one hand,
I am such a confirmed book baby, that I find it hard to think that any store
selling books is a bad idea. On the other hand, I love my second hand bookstores
and small indies, and gods bless The Hungry Mind. Still, in B & N's defense
- most of the books that I buy from them are out of their discounted corner.
You may not have noticed this, but a lot of those books are out of print books
that B & N publishes themselves. I've gotten some really amazingly obscure treatises
on various historical topics that I just love - I got a biography of Eleanor
of Acquitane, originally published looong years before even my parents were
born. As Eleanor is one of my personal heroes, and as finding books about her
is difficult, I find it hard to say bad things about the giant. They are using
some of their powers for good!
As for a HE award - I would think that this should be something along the lines
of a grant for writers who show unflinching honesty and a strong gift for language,
that would allow them to either study with an established author, or that would
allow them to take time off to devote strictly to getting a writing career off
of the ground and self-sufficient.
Well, that's my two cents. I've a bus to catch.
Later
I have no useful ideas regarding money beyond the gut feeling that it
should be more than just an award. Regarding the integrity of this non-existent
award, logrolling and vote lobbying is a long standing tradition within the
skiffy community. Just ask anyone you'd like to be punched in the nose by...
Now as to the design of this fictional no-prize...
Perhaps a Lisa Snelling Harlequin pelting the illiterate with jelly beans...
Outta here...
...
..
.
FINDER, re the HE award…Absolutely. Soliciting votes gives you the axe.
Who was it who said about government, that those people with the least desire
to rule are those best qualified to rule? Resulting in the absurd emperor of
the Hitchhikers’ Guide to the Galaxy.
True, it’s comforting to find a piece of home in strange surroundings. But then,
a few years ago I was hired as a ringer and road crew super on a Youth Orchestra’s
tour in Israel, and I was frightened to hear mid-teens carp and moan endlessly
about the food and conditions, and then damn near stampede the first McDonald’s
we happened upon. On, maybe, the third day out.
And gift Ellison? Yep, best kind. Which is why one of my groomsmen at my wedding
this summer will get a signed copy of HE Watching…provided I can meet The Man
at ReaderCon a week before.
FINDER- Involution Ocean does have an HE intro., even though Islands does
not. This also puzzled me and I wrote Susan about it. She did confirm that even
though Islands does not have an intro. that it is part of the HE Discovery series.
If I recall correctly, she stated it was the final book that HE bought for the
series. Charlie
Wow. I'm taking another creative writing class this semester, and this
one focuses on writing fiction. So I won't spend four out of seventeen weeks
on fiction, but seventeen out of seventeen. What's more. The final is to have
three prepared manuscripts, ready for submission. I'm still having difficulty
believing that I've found a writing class concerned with both the art and business
of writing. Wow. Of course, when my prof joked about how we'd all be getting
our first rejection letters, I kept my mouth shut about already having some
of those. hehehe. Still. Maybe academia isn't as bad as I had thought. Or then
again, I might have only found an exception to the rule.
---Peter
BARNEY - How does one go attaching WorldCon money to anything? And how
does the integrity of the award get safeguarded (somehow, the thought of an
Ellison award in which the nominees could go out and stump for votes is a shade
left of blasphemy - then again, would soliciting votes get you thrown off the
ballot? Now THERE'S an integrity check...) KEEGAN - from what I remember in
the translators' intro, they were attempting to do an honest, Latin-grammatically
correct translation - so that very well could be the precise translation of
the title; I don't know if it rhymes (I opened it, looked at it, but Latin is,
well, Greek to me; I know how having a vague churchy understanding of it goes);
it's got the same cover and illustrations as the original version (though little
Cindy Lou Who gets a name make-over, and don't even ask what "roast beast" becomes...);
last I heard, my Aunt (who is in her latter sixties) was staying up until four
in the morning doing literal translation back to English (and I thought I stayed
up late...)...BILL - what amazed me was the amount of material that has been
translated into Latin; the concept of Winnie the Pooh is intriguing. The album
of Elvis songs, conversely, scares the hell out of me...GARY - Welcome in from
the lurk; your comment reminded me of a lampoon on the Simpsons - a mall that
had coffee shop after coffee shop of the same name in a row. While I find it's
sometimes nice while on the road to find a place that rings of home (a Waldenbooks
can be oddly comforting when you're two thousand miles from home, if only because
it's familiar), I agree that we're far too overbuilt with the same crap again
and again, and having watch the deforestation of large tracts in Northern VA
so they can build more roads to yet more stores that already existed two miles
up the road, I'd much rather have the trees back...SUE - it was HE...but it
WAS from a chain...but it was HE...sorry, too much moral dilemma for me for
a Friday morning. I figure if a person still haunts the shelves of the little
guy (where I just found a very nice, two volume slip-cased, annotated complete
Sherlock Holmes for a VERY reasonable price), there's no real crime in B&N.
And gift Ellison? Aside from rare, is there any better kind?...ALL - Can anyone
tell me if the Discovery Series paperback of "Involution Ocean" contains an
introduction by HE? I recently found a 1976 first printing of "Islands", the
book that preceded Sterling's book, but there was no HE intro to be found. These
are the questions that plague me (still better than dredging up the ghosts of
Houston past...). Have a cool weekend! Finder
CHARLIE- I agree with you on the shrink-wrapping by Amazon.Com, they always
crease a corner. I'd rather they just pack in more of the infatable plastic
pillows. I received an order yesterday that included CITY OF DARKNESS by Ben
Bova, performed by Harlan Ellison. I lucked out on this shipment because nothing
was damaged.---------------
Last week, I experienced something at Amazon.Com that brought me up short: A
list priced book with NO discount! I went to Barnes & Noble and found the same
book at 30% off so I wrote Amazon and asked them if they did price matching.
Nope. B&N got my business. Comparision shopping is SOOO easy.-----------Shane
I usually turn to B&N on my book hunts, too. Barney- I remember you mentioning
that HE award at DragonCon. As for qualifications for that award, I don't know
if this was specifically mentioned, but I don't think it should be limited to
any specific genre of fiction, since HE himself really can't be completely tied
to one form of fiction. Fantasy #328- years later, I become the first to earn
a Harlan Ellison award, whatever it takes to be worthy of it. Okay, I know,
but I can certainly dream...
FINDER: Just imagining Dr. Seuss written in Latin couplet makes me smile.
I can only imagine. I took Latin in 9th grade, most of which I've forgotten
completely by now (yes, folks, we ARE talking about the early 1970's). But one
day our teacher brought in a copy of the song "Old McDonald Had a Farm" in Latin.
It was so enjoyable that I can still sing every line to this day--and when I
think about the words, I see how all those danged declensions and conjugations
work. Making learning enjoyable, what a concept. -- Billy D.
The thing about the shrink wrap is that it has damaged a book in every
shipment-not that I have an inordinate fear of plastic. Sorry that wasn't clear.
I have to agree with Barney. B&N is great for new books-especially when
you have that urge that you gotta have the book TODAY. I won't buy from Amazon
anymore b/c they shrink wrap the books and I've returned too many books and
they won't change their policy about shrink wrapping. ABE and Bibliofind are
GREAT for the out of print books-especially when looking for that rare HE book.
E-Bay has also been good. I picked up my copy of Sex Gang through E-Bay at a
"reasonable" price as far as that edition goes. Charlie
*** Peter - Sue - Keegan - Finder - DTS - Gary - EVERYBODY *** Wow. Thanks
for running with that ball. I'm convinced there will probably be a Harlan award
some day and I'm really glad so many people took the idea the way I intended
it. I think Peter has come closest so far with "short story collection of exceptional
depth, breadth, and force of language. " THAT could be on the plaque! In that
sense it would award the spirit of the work in much the same way the Philip
K. Dick award or the Stoker work. Now if we could attach some WorldCon money
to it...
GARY: beautiful.
Hee-hee,hee-hee, hee! Much fun. BARNEY: Man, when you're "on" books, you
are FLYIN'! Wow! I've never seen you get so excited when you write! I'll have
to think about the HE awards. Good thoughts so far from the great Sue Luesse
and DTS. FINDER: I never took Latin and really don't know anything about it
other than how to pronounce it when I sing it. Some vague churchy understanding
of it. The Latin translation of "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas" really grabs
me, though! It's the sort of oddball thing I'd just love for the sake of what
it is. Does the Latin title literally mean "In Which Manner the Individual named
the Grinch Christ's Birthday Abrogated"? Does it rhyme in Latin, too? That story
made my day!
Hello, all…I’ve been a lurker at Webderland for a time, and it’s time to
comment. I’ll try to be concise.
I’m a used-book store hound, and I devoutly support my local independent bookstore
– Publisher Weekly’s 1998 Best Bookstore, no less. I’ve been known to browse
a Barnes & Noble, or Borders…and then go down the street to my independent to
buy. Or order, if need be. And when I hit the wall at the used stores, or my
independent can’t order a really odd item, sure, I’ll go online to ABE or Amazon.
All this, by way of background.
Aside from the big-guy-little-guy war of the bookstores, my real problem is
the malling of America. As comfortable as they make them, the mega-stores still
strike me as soulless. Walking into one is, to me, indistinguishable from walking
into any of the others. I’m lost in Generica – the great strip-mall of America,
in which you can’t tell where in the country you are, with only chain stores
and McDonald’s shacks to navigate by. I wish I knew who coined that word…It’s
the independents and used stores that each have personality. Individuality.
And I value that over the convenience of the megas.
Thanks for the soapbox.
Ummm - 'bout that whole keep the local guy in business thing.. Two days
ago, I would have jumped right on that bandwagon, screaming about the evils
of giant conglomerates. But I today the UPS guy dropped off a box for me from
B&N.. Since I don't *use* B&N online, I thought it was a mistake. Called Hubby
on the phone with an indignant "guess what!" - only to learn he had ordered
the books for me as a surprise gift... And, well... it's hard to send back HE
books I've been wanting for a while, and haven't been able to locate locally,
that leave sad holes in what was once a complete collection (and let this be
a lesson to you all about lending books). So there you have it folks - my lust
for things HE to read seems to be winning over my moral scruples about "Big
Business".. *sigh* But I do have the books... :-) ... And, it won't stop me
from shopping the local bookstores, and poring over titles looking for more.
BARNEY - HE Award? I'd think it would *have* to be for groundbreaking (and/or
cutting edge) authors - with literary technical excellence, visceral impact,
verisimilitude, and mastery of diverse styles as criteria. At least that is
what I think of when HE comes up...
Been busy - but still reading my daily dose of Webderland. Good to see all my
old friends, and new names. I'll probably have lots to say after read my new
stash of old HE books.. ;-) .. Which should coincide with ending the wait for
the Prize Patrol and Ed McMahon to knock on the door..
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
BARNEY: re. your HE award idea. How 'bout giving it out for integrity in
writing? You know, journalistic integrity (i.e., Ellison's award-winning AN
EDGE IN MY VOICE column), or (this would be harder to define), artistic integrity?
--Out here, DTS.
An curious Barnes & Noble story, by the by: back around the holidays, I
was hunting for a copy of the latin translation of "How The Grinch Stole Christmas"
("Quomodo Invidiosulus Nomine Grinchus Christi Natalem Abrogaverit" for those
of you who go in for trivia) for my aunt, a wonderful woman who doesn't take
foolishness from anyone. So I went to the B&N website to see if it was out,
get the title, ISBN number, etc., so I could inquire at my local B&N store.
When I did inquire at the local B&N store, they looked at me as if I had two
heads, did a cursory search in their computer, and said they could find no listing
for the book, too bad, so sad. I found it at Borders, who also had to search
the computer (and the clerk there looked at me like I had one head, just not
screwed on too tightly - until it came up on her screen. THAT look was priceless...),
but who found it in stock and led me to it...the moral, I guess, is that B&N's
net presence might be even more than their stores can measure up to...
I'm not really up on which award is which. I'm just in it for the stories.
But my feeling is that a Harlan Ellison award would have to go to a short story
collection of exceptional depth, breadth, and force of language. When I think
of Ellison, I don't just think about his short stories. I think about the collections
he has organized them into and how as collections they begin to play off each
other and compliment each other thematically. Plus, the fact that he has been
able to do so with such a wide variety of -and I hate to use the word- genres
is a testament to the vast warehouse called his imagination. And without force
of language, even the most brilliant of ideas will come off as tired and asanine.
As I said, I'm really not up on which awards are for what, but that is what
I would think of as a Harlan Ellison award.
---Peter
Probably greater than 90% of my book collection has come from independantly
owned new/used book stores. I really only use Barnes & Noble and Borders and
the like for periodicals and the occasional "I'm here, it's here, have cash,
must buy NOW" situation. Back in the day, I had no fewer than twenty used book
stores from Albany to Rochester NY that I visited on a regular basis, and I
found some remarkable things. There's a lot of excitement in scouring the used
book shelves with ones own eyes, waiting for the next gem to appear and laughing
like a ninny when you actually find it, having it in hands, walking to that
cash register like King Soloman's mines just opened forth at your feet, spilling
treasure on your Reeboks. When I DO get a wild hair and decide to hunt down
something of a more obscure nature, after exhausting the usual channels I will
go on line, but I'll find it through ABE and deal with the booksellers themselves.
I'd rather get that copy of The Deadly Streets from a paperback store in Iowa
than www.barnesandnoble.com. BARNEY - this one requires a little thought, something
I'm not in a position to do at the moment. But it's an interesting line of thinking...Finder
***NEW TOPIC*** First off, I want to say I enjoyed the Ellison fantasy
topic just to know that other people have Rupert Pupkin moments. I liked Rick's
best. Harlan hacking line code is nuts!
This is not that topic however. In the last ten years I've seen quite a few
award banquets and I have witnessed a proliferation of awards. I won't mention
any particular names because some may be more dear to you than others. The reason
I mention this is because I understand there exists no shortage of awards. BUT,
nevertheless, I was sitting at one of these banquets and the devil who sits
on my right shoulder [slightly smaller than the one who sits on my left shoulder]
whispered to me, "Hey buddy, if there was a Harlan award, [not another award
for Harlan, but rather an award given out in Harlan's name] WHAT would it be
given in honor of?" Now I realize this could be the launch point for a ton of
sarcasm ie. best-at-pissing-off-and-alienating-an-entire-room-full-of-christian-fundamentalists-at-the-drop-of-a-hat-award.
but that's not really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a way of differentiating
this fictional award from the Dick-Campbell-etc. type of awards that already
exist. In other words, mark this day, I'm serious. Also, if somebody can think
of a way to attach a cash prize to such an award, I'm all ears. A fair criticism
of awards for writers is that they usually don't put food on anyones plate,
and that's a damn shame. Or make a mortgage payment. I'm tempted to blather
on here but instead I'll just throw it into the ring... Have fun.
Hmmmm. Which crack dealer is the right one for me? From the standpoint
of a hopeless book addict it hardly matters. I understand how large chains destroy
midlist authors and determine print runs and the rest - I just can't HATE B&N
when I go into the Princeton branch and look around at what may be the best
stocked NEW bookstore in the world. Multiple obverse page translations of everything
the greeks wrote that we still have reference copies of in our culture. It takes
MONEY to stock a store that well. I know because I worked for an indy that tried.
It's just not possible. I use Amazon.com for Harlan's Dove audio work because
it's easier than calling around to see who can special order them. On the other
hand I've purchased each Edgeworks volume on a case by case basis. If Harlan
was doing a signing [at DV for example] I'll order it from that store to get
a signed dated copy without pestering Harlan. So I have a couple purchased from
small indies and a couple from Amazon. The problem with OP database searches
is that if you really want something, by the time Amazon,B&N, etc. can find
it for you a different kind of search will turn it up for you without the middleman.
I've also picked up quite a few obscure pieces of Ellisonalia on E-bay. I just
like the whole process of E-bay. The entire world reduced to a garage sale!
Of course Robert Armin [I know you are out there] got the Miller Roast poster
that should have been mine but I forgive him.
I don't really care to collect rare books, either. I'm in it for the stories,
not the bragging rights. I buy every HE book I don't already own because they're
so hard to find, and if I don't buy it RIGHT THEN I may never see it again.
Panning for gold in used bookstores is what's kept me going. That, and the EdgeWorks
series. Who could ask for anything more? Mitch
Not content with just ruling the world of book stores, the web site for
los Nobbly Barns is trying to corner the market of used and out of print books
as well. Its kind of scary, and I'm a bit iffy about trying it out. I'm sure
everyone who's done an Ellison search on that website has noticed a lot of books
popping up with "out of print" under the title. Well now, through its network
of tenticles, it seems that the Nobbly ones have compiled a database of those
out of print books, their distributors, and their conditions. So those who absolutely
must have that signed edition of ROCKABILLY, bagged, heat sealed, and helium
preserved to mint condition, can do so for however many hundreds of dollars
they're charging. I'm frightened. I've never been much for going out and searching
for rare books. That kind of treasure hunt doesn't interest me. I like the idea
of accidentally finding small treasures here and there. But this. This. Well,
this can be both a boon and a curse. A boon, because I can finally get my paws
on books that have previously been nothing more than titles in a bibliography
for me. A curse because it bolsters the reputation of an already destructive
force in the book selling industry. I like small bookstores. You can find real
gems in them. At Barnes all I can usually find is the latest Tom "writing a
book a day keeps the doctor away" Clancy and the latest Tom "A book a decade
will still get me paid" Wolfe. I don't know. What's everyone elses feelings
on this?
---Peter
For more details,I pulled this down from the Sci-Fi Channel's website.
History Channel Looks At SF
The History Channel plans to air a one-hour show called In Search of History:
The Truth About Science Fiction on June 8. The project is being produced by
Weller/Grossman's Lisa Riehn, who formerly worked on the Sci-Fi Channel show
SF Vortex.
"It's an overall look at where science fiction became a reality," Riehn said.
"Throughout the show we look at every place where science fiction and science
collided."
The Truth About Science Fiction will feature interviews with numerous scientists
and SF personalities, including noted authors Harlan Ellison and Larry Niven,
and well-known fan Forrest J Ackerman.
Peg- Best wishes for you and your Grandmother. My Father had a stroke on
December 6th, his twin sister had a stroke on Dec 17th, and my Father-In-Law
went into the hospital on Dec 26th where he's had both a quadruple bypass and
a stomach resection and where he still remains. Have a safe trip and may it
do you both good. Shane
That should read "Cornell Woollrich." Also, I happened to be in LA for
a week, and Harlan asked me over -- I did not fly down special from San Francisco
for steak sandwiches with Unca Harlan (not that he isn't worth the trip, mind
you,...).
Ellison Fantasies? Golly -- at the risk of sounding terribly full of myself
(or full of something), and I hope it doesn't seem too self-congratulatory,
I hardly dare to imagine further magic. While discussing some of my review work,
Harlan mentioned that "sometimes [I] fly," and that I could probably make a
pretty okay living at this writing thing. I'm just glad I was sitting down.
Then, about a year ago, actually being invited to have lunch with the Ellisons,
at their home,... Well, what does that leave, apart from Harlan and Susan adopting
me? As for Sheriff Buck, I have never had the "fantasy" of Harlan kicking my
ass. If I wanted to make a living on personal infamy, I'd go around telling
everyone that I'd had sex with Bill Clinton, or a three-way with Trent Lott
and Jesse Helms. Great -- I have officially nauseated myself.
MAGGIE> If you want, I'd be happy to look at your essay. This is not free-and-easy
beneficence, mind you -- I'd also like to hear more about that Guest Writer
thing. Just zap it along to the above e-address.
GODSON> I know Harlan has been to France. I know that he took a trip sometime
in the early 70s. I forget the title, but he wrote an introduction for a volume
of Cornell Woolrish's previously uncollected work, on the slant of their all
having female protagonists. And he mentioned in the introduction that he was
writing it during a trip to Paris, whereat he was to meet with Truffeau (sp?)
and his wife, prior to their filming "The Bride Wore Black." So -- *could* it
have happened that he was in this sleazy-sounding little soft-core flick? Yes.
Likely? Hey, it's Ellison -- only he can say.
Cheers, Doc
EVERYONE/FYI- The Oct/Nov issue of F&SF promises a "major new novella"
from...HE. This is for the 50th Anniversary issue. Watch your newsstands or
mailboxes. Charlie
Fantasies? Harlan Ellison fantasies? Isn't HE a fantasy enough?
thanks keegan. the reason i don't plan much in advance is 'cause there's
so much work, i can't see past it to think of what i want to do. i'm just a
video pinball. actually, i am planning on a weekend up north next month for
some whale watching and rest and ...nevermind. it helps to have some thing to
look forward to. i have made no plans for new years because i will be working.
maybe 1999 is one year that people will actually go out instead of renting movies.
maybe corporate will realize this and close for once... maybe pigs will fly.
this is starting to sound really whiny, so i'm going to bail and return when
i've had more sleep. take care all. thinking of you, peg. wylie
Necco wafers and Ovaltine.....mmmmmmm........Peggy: safe travel and peace.
PS: Wylie, on advance planning: for the first time in my life, I'm booked a
year in advance---New Year's Eve 1999 somewhere in Rochester area. That's an
easy date to remember, especially the only thing I have on the book before that
is July 4. My point: easy to plan for the future if there ain't much going on
in the here and now.(BTW: before anybody starts bemoaning my "lack of work",
relax. I got plenty of work---just not much FUN. I'm not worried. The phone
WILL ring again......)
Folks - I've received some unfortunate news that my grandmother back east
is very unstable (she's been in the hospital since Christmas) and am moments
away from heading back to the airport to fly out tonight. (long story left out
for your reading sanity). For me, one possible bright spot in all of this is
that I recall several Webderlanders being from PA (I recall Allentown, of course,
but aren't there others...) and since I rarely get to the east coast I was thinking
maybe we could meet up. I don't know where Allentown (or anything else) is in
relation to Wilkesbarre, but I know I would love the opportunity to finally
meets some of you folks, and could use the company since I'll probably be spending
most of the time in the hospital. If there's a chance you'd like to get together,
email my wonderful husband Mark at the address above, and leave him a number
where I can reach you. He'll pass it along to me. - Thanks, and kind regards.
Peg
INFOMAN: you will remind us about that science fiction show a little close
to june 8th, won't you? wow--does anyone plan their life that far ahead? actually,
it would probably improve my life if i did...SCOT: i need to tell you that i'm
really impressed with the breadth of your movie knowledge. zang.
HE FANTASY #110: I'm sitting in the booth of his art-deco kitchen, the
lights are dim, Susan has gone out for Necco wafers and ovaltine, and suddenly
(withough preamble), Ellison begins to remove my shoes and socks (with nary
a remark about my cheesy feet), running his fingers along...OH! Wait. This is
the wrong board for that particular fantasy. OK. While I'm here, how's about
a little info? On June 8th, the History channel will run an hour long program
(I forget the exact title, something like "In Search of the truth about Science
Fiction"...something like that). Anyway, Ellison (along with Larry Niven) is
listed as one of the featured writers and interviewees (I'm sure there will
be quite a few more SF writers included). Informationally yours, the man.
Hey all! Well, I haven't been run out of town on the snow plow yet, but
it was a near thing.
HE fantasy #12 - I meet HE and several other writers, at a lecture/workshop/con
(oh, fill in the blank). We stay up talking and end up writing a book together
- akin to "Medea: Harlan's World".
Speaking of writing, and please forgive me if this is too weird a request, but
my local paper is looking for guest columnists (to "write no less than 6 columns
for a small sum of money. . ." - whatever that means). I have prepared a piece,
and I would like some feedback. It's not that long - less than 700 words, but
I am way too close to it and am in desperate need of feedback, and who better
to ask than people who read HE? Anyway. If any of you have the time, and interest
in looking it over for me, I would be deeply appreciative - hey, I'm 34 years
old and childless, can't be promising you my first born, now can I? ;)
Thanks in advance for even thinking about it. pbude@metacom-inc.com
Hmm--Harlan fantasies? Well, aside from becoming well-regarded enough as
an author to appear at cons with him and Peter David, I've only one fantasy
about the Man (I cringe at deifying people), and it's one I fully intend to
make come true:
Harlan agrees to let me use two lines from "Ernest and the Machine God" as the
epigram to begin my novel (now almost completed! Woo-hoo!).
Upon publication, I get a call from him.
"Yeah! Berman?"
"It doesn't suck."
Nicole:::Don't feel so bad about not knowing who Nader was and being called
on it. However I still cringe at the article HE wrote about the college lecture
he was giving and how one girl came up to him afterwards and said something
to the effect of "you mentioned Dachau(sp?). Who's he?" Something like that
would cause me to go running into the hills with nothing but my lost wits to
protect me. But I do have to credit you for being braver than I. I would never
ask Ellison about the review I wrote, or even the ones I'm doing. Nope, nope.
I'm a coward at heart. Still, I just wish he was going to be more than just
the keynote speaker at the writer's conference I'm going to in April. It would
be a wonderfully sobering experience to attend a workshop with him, however
brief. Although, I must admit, the opportunity to maybe interact with Ray Bradbury
should offset that dissapointment some.
Barney:::How about arranging the books in alphabetical order of the third letter
in the title, starting with all of the books that have only two letters in the
title and working your way toward Z.
All:::Its rather sick, but since I'm starting up my new semester next week I
should be posting a little more often. Let's just say I miss my dorm room's
dedicated connection to the internet.
---Peter
Smooth transition. Gotta explore. BARNEY:LOL!!!!
My HE Fantasy: Harlan reviews my perl scripts.
He turns on line breaks so people can format their messages without putting
in lots of little dots.
Everyone is happy.
As long as we're sharing stories: HE Fantasy #33- I get invited to spend
the rest of the semester in Cali with the Ellisons, where Harlan helps me with
my writing and I get a few stories published. Okay, so it will never happen.
but dreams are nice. You know, I would have liked to see that Dating Game tape,
too. I wonder what he looked like back then. As for the Nadar thing (Rick and
Doc are smiling to themselves as I relate this), when I did my Hornbook review,
I had some questions, one of which was "Who is Ralph Nadar?" Well, I submit
those questions to Rick. Next day, telephone rang. "Walter?!" barked out the
voice on the other end. "Y-yes?" I stammered. "Ellison" he snpped back, and
proceeded to give me the scolding of my life over my not knowing who Nadar was.
Well, he scared me so badly that it took me a week to get up the courage to
call him and ask if he still wanted to work on the review project with me. He
said yeah, I shouldn't have taken it so hard, all that. Months pass. I go to
DragonCon and end up having lunch with him (I'm in the pictures, sitting next
to Susan. My head was down the entire time), and he doesn't know me until Rick
mentions Nadar. "Oh!" Light goes on in his head, yeah, yeah, and all that. So,
that is why whenever HE mentions Ralph Nadar, I cringe and nod.
Hey! ***Barney Dannelke***
thanks so much for the info on the Babs/HE deal. I have no comment, except,
jeeeze..
Ellison fantasy? Ellison fantasy...hmmm. OK, I win the lottery [not that
I PLAY the lottery mind you - lotteries are a tax on people with poor math skills]
and I pay 3 times his speaking fee and fly him to my house where I force him
to shelve and alphabatize all my books. Or, I pay Ninja bibliophiles to break
into his house and re-shelve all of HIS books until Edgeworks gets back on schedule.
Fiction organized by color of spine and non-fiction by height of spine. Bwahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!
What are you looking at - hey, it's MY fantasy.
FINDER-Thanks for the info! -ALL: Has anyone heard further news on this:
Samuel L. Jackson will star in and produce a film
adaptation of Harlan Ellison's famous novella Mefisto
in Onyx, about a serial killer who trades memories
with a "mind jumper," according to The Hollywood
Reporter. Greg Widen will write the screenplay.
Back to school in a few days. whoh. I got no work done over that break.
of course being sick for the first couple of weeks didn't help. Still. I'm starting
up again. Writing and school. Now if I can discipline myself to do both in equal
measure I should have a productive semester. of course the fact that I'm writing
right now with piss poor grammar and clipped sentence fragments indicates that
I need some rest. Oh well. Oh yeah. Ellison nightmare. I go to the palm springs
writer's conference in april, meet him and have him say "Peter O'Sullivan...
You're the guy who wrote that crappy review of Approaching Oblivion for Rick.
You got everything all wrong. With (some story) you dug way too deep and with
(some other story) you barely even scratched the surface. Oh, and that story
you submitted for evaluation. what did you do, wipe your ass with white bond
and mail it to us? I felt violated just touching it let alone actually reading
what was written down on paper. Do yourself a favor kid; become an engineer."
of course its not like I put any actual thought into that. that was just a spur
of the moment image that popped into my head. Fantasy would be actually finishing
a book, getting it published, having millions love it, getting on PI at the
same time as Ellison and the two of us ganging up on one of those annoyingly
closed-minded ubermiesters of the Third Right that Bill Maher always seems to
have as a panelist. that one I have given thought to. But then again, I like
to express myself and I love it when people place a soapbox in front of me.
oh well. Here's to dreaming. ---Peter (going to get some rest)
SHANE/NICOLE - "Well, it's kind of a dumb story, but since you asked, I'll
tell you." And so begins HE's two-fisted tale of appearing on the Dating Game.
It's installment 72 in The Other Glass Teat. If you don't have it handy, let's
just say that HE's style of play wasn't up to the exacting standards of the
Production crew - and the odds of finding said appearance are slim to none (though
stranger lost footage has turned up in private collections of Hollywood, so
who knows?) Just reading the essay makes one pine to see the actual tape...RICK
- Smooth transition. Not a blip or a bounce so far...Ellison Fantasy #13 - inexplicably,
one of my short stories, dismissed by F&SF, is instead returned to Ellison Wonderland;
upon reading it, HE finds its merits, expreses a desire to give it a run through,
and creates a robust, full-blooded collaboration that goes on to win a Hugo
for best short story. Ellison Nightmare #13 - on stage to accept Hugos at Worldcon,
HE attempts to bolster my social life by auctioning me off to an elligible bachelorette,
and I am purchased by a 48 year old fan-girl who spends the evening asking me,
"So, what is Harlan Ellison REALLY like?" Or something like that...oh well.
Finder
New URL, new e-mail, same old bulletin board. We'll have a new one eventually
and your comments have been noted - it will have what you've asked for. Now
look over the new site and tell me what I screwed up! And what's with this HE
fantasy stuff, you expecting me to be Mr. O'Rourke or something? Sure, I dress
in white linen and I have a midget manservant, but the similarities end there...
Sorry, folks, I left out a comma, and half of a set of parentheses out
of the last message. I also left out a proposition: I'll dub a copy of the Ellison-related
"Godson" for anyone willing to foot the bill for the postage and the tape. Just,
you know, e-mail me. I'll check the tape and make sure I'm not violating any
copyright laws. And for anyone with older Ellison tv appearances on tape that
wants to trade, please e-mail me. (P.S. It's really not a good film. Trust me.)
Let me see if I can get this information out, untainted, and all right-like:
"The Godson" (also known as, I believe, "Le Samourai") is an early seventies
French film by Jean-Pierre Melville. It pretty much inspired John Woo's career,
and to a large degree served as direct inspiration for his film, "The Killer."
And "The Godson" is a softcore porn film shot in, I believe a house that Ellison
lived in at some point. The only person I recognize in the film is Russ Meyer
starlet Uschi Digard. It's not a very good film (what I've been able to watch
of it, at least), and, if I was still at an impressionable age, I'd think sex
was a pretty disgusting act, given what is presented in the film. At any rate,
I've got a copy (I purchased from, um, I forget, sorry. Ellison or no Ellison,
the French film is the way to go.
i looked up Godson in the video hound. there is a listing for the title
with the year 1972. they give it three bones and no mention of HE. it's a french
film. doesn't seem like that could be it.
Otto: regardless of whether the particular information you looked up is
actually correct, you still should remember that people input the information...into
the computer...and people being people, they could always be wrong. So I wouldn't
look upon the IMDB as infallible. -- DTS
Maybe HE hasn't acted in any movies -- you'd think somebody here would
know something about it, wouldn't you? -- but here's something weird. I'm sort
of an amateur film buff (okay, I just love going to the movies), and I use the
International Movie Database a lot. One day, I did a search for Harlan Ellison,
just out of curiousity. The database provided me with a list of all the movies
he had written scripts or concepts for (including Terminator, which I thought
was nifty), and . . . one movie in which he had been an actor. The IMDB is usually
pretty good about not confusing people; if there's more than one person who
shares a name, they assign them numerals. So I'm incredibly curious about this.
The movie is called Godson, made in 1971, and apparently never released. Does
anyone know anything about this?
NICOLE: You know, the problem I'm faced with is that I don't remember if
I'm remembering H.E. remarking about his DATING GAME appearence in his writing,
one of his tv talk show stints, or if I'm remembering one of his convention
talks. This is not to be confused with the time he went through the process
of video dating for an article. - KEEGAN: To the best of my knowledge, H.E.
has done no acting in the movies. I can only imagine the number of radio and
television appearences H.E. has made in his 40+ year career.
HE nightmare #1: if i ever meet him, all i'll be able to do is fall on
my knees and chant, "i'm not worthy! i'm not worthy!"
sheriff buck: hee hee, i think i know exactly what you're talking about.
kudos to you for having the guts to say it. nicole: com'on! let the fng's in
on the ralph nader thing!
HE fantasy #42: Harlan kicks my ass. C'mon. Like you haven't thought about
it.
Shane--that's a neat idea: a collection of HE's small-screen appearances.
Has he ever done a large-screen appearance? Hmmm....a VHS documentary on Harlan?
Maybe available with a buck or two going to the man for his time and cooperation?
Hmmmmmm.......(music from that "Twighlighty show about that Zone")....Ellison
nightmare #101: HE somehow hears about *that* suggestion, for some reason gives
a rat's ass, and rains a barrage of burning verbiage to pulverize the greedy
little sycophant who could just as easily READ THE BOOKS had she not forgotten
what one looks like....... (that's exaggeration, folks. Actually, I've been
reading a book about the musical and sociological roots of Be-Bop.) "No,no,
man! Don't shoot! I was just jivin'. Really!" At any rate.....back to my cave....
HE was on the Dating Game? News to me. I noticed he mentioned Ralph Nadar
on the Tom Snyder show- brought back memories... (the regulars know what I'm
talking about) ;)
I finally got around to watching Harlan's appearence on Tom Snyder's show.
It's sad to think that we won't get to see those two sparring and joking and
reminiscening again. I have a memory of Harlan appearing on the TOMORROW SHOW
with Ray Bradbury and Gene Roddenberry. A very interesting show. Harlan talked
about "One Life, Furnished in Early Poverty" and Bradbury spoke about "Dandilion
Wine." I would love to have all of Harlan's televised appearences. I wonder
if even HE has copies of all the shows he's done, such as when he was on THE
DATING GAME.
Hey, I've had a really long running fantasy where I write a story, said
story gets published. I go to one of those SF conventions on a publicity (or
some such - I've never been to one of the Cons - too timid. Swear to gods)and
HE happens to be on some panel with me. We are introduced, just as I am about
to make a complete blathering idiot out of myself, the man kindly tells me he
read my story and really liked. Then I die happy. Hey, what could be left after
an achievement like that? ;) I would just like to take this opportunity to get
off track and say two things - one of which could get me run out of town on
a snow plow - THE VIKINGS LOST!!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! If you
are perhaps under the impression that I was NOT a football fan, then you are
correct. Most years that I have lived here, the Vidiots are easy to ignore,
but this year. . .Let's just say that I will be happy when the sports section
loses it's Vidiots fat, and returns to being just one SINGLE section. Oh please
- all last week, the front page was all about what REAL vikings were like, why
Vidiots uniforms look blue on TV, etc. The only relief from the purple passion
of this state was either our Gov, or "A Presidency in Peril" (You know they
had a field day with that one). I've kept believing that there were things going
on in the world other than those three topics. Maybe now I will find out. Sooooo,
anything interesting happen lately?
Allentown?!? When did I say I'm in Allentown? I've always proudly proclaimed
myself to be from the idyllic suburb noted above. Could there still be a third
Allentowner lurking about?...As for Ellison fantasies, I'd love to see him write
a screenplay and win an Oscar for it. The acceptance speech...Good Lawd, the
acceptance speech...*brain locks up*...and of course I forget to tape it. Not
even my fantasies go smoothly. Le sigh. Mitch
KEEGAN: Great HE fantasy; maybe you can start a trend. Anybody else out
there got a HE daydream? Here's mine: that I'll get a screenplay accepted, then
convince Harlan to work on it with me, as he has for about 140 other scripts.
Frankly, I think Keegan's got more hope than I. DOC: Elevate one's reputation?
Brother, if anybody was elevating that day, it was us 'cause you pulled us up
along with you. I can now lay the rumor to rest: Doc is every bit as clever
and witty and caring as you'd expect from his posts--only even more so in person.
A man full of creative kindness (and one of the few Van Dyked dudes around whose
goatee makes him look not scarier, but of a more heightened intelligence). If
you're ever in San Francisco, he's the man to see. -- Billy D.
Hey, everybody! Good to see things up and runnin' again. SUE---Man, I don't
even want to think about financial aid. I gotta finish that masters' in a year,
don't wanna take any more loans, and am just in procrastination/denial city.
Funny, I'm now an acting faculty member at the school, but I just can't figure
out how to afford a degree from the institution. Hey, DOC---good to see you
hangin' ruff and reddy! Anyway, I'm *really* just tagging in with HE fantasy
# 75: Harlan comes and sings with me on one of my gigs. Rick reports he's a
fine singer and I'm sure he'd know all my tunes. The band is competent enough
to find a reasonable key. I'm at Awful Al's in Syracuse on Sunday nite. If HE
wants to make it, I'll give him at LEAST fifteen bucks. Oh, well. It's a nice
thought, anyway.....
Well, now that I shivered that thought out of my system... Okay, well,
I'll keep a big, buggy eye out for IHNMAIMS, because of your hearty recomensations
of it. But as for now, I have no game, and I must play. Hyuk, yuk. Okay, that
was really stupid. Sorry. *looking down in shame* If you folks see me on the
street, you can punch me in the stomach for that. Hell, I'm punching myself
now. SoooOOOooo...I'm eagerly anticipating Harlan's appearance on The Late Late
Show tonight...I wonder if he'll ever show up during Kraig Kilborn's run of
the show. Now THAT would be a sight to see...Our beloved cynic being interviewed
by our also beloved smartass. Alright, I gotta go stick myself in microwave
to keep warm. Adios.
Good God in Heaven it's freezing here.
Hey All!! Saw that "hint" Doc.. Luesse-woman!?!? grrmummmbl FREE LUNCH..?!?..with
Bill Dennis and wife!?! Well, you should have mentioned THAT part first, I'm
sure I could have made it.. ;-) ..**RICK** I've been pondering the whole 'changes'
thing, and I have to agree with the Keegster - a thread for personal "keeping
up" (that wouldn't interfere with 'On-topic' HE stuff) would really be nice.
The main reason I lurk more than post these days is simply that I don't really
have much to add to On-Topic threads, and feel constrained from posting personal
stuff just to let everyone know I am still here. Maybe I should just post a
"secret sign".. ;-) ..like a little Luesse-print in the snows of Webderland...or
would that be a tire tread? **ALL** Things here have been a little dicey of
late. Two in college, and the one who is suppposed to graduate in April had
her Financial Aid snafu'd - so we had to scramble to come up with the necessary
moola - and that's a herd's worth of MOO! And as we sighed, and got used to
going no place, saying things to comfort ourselves like "At least we stay warm
at home".. The furnace went out. Since we have no $$ to *buy* one (dang they
are expensive!), Hubby is fixing the one we have, while we bake and roast around
the clock to augment our puny space heater. Anyone want Roast Beast on fresh
bread?? Always sumthin, ain't it? **BARNEY** 'The Allentown Three' are you,
Andre, and Mitch.. ;-) .. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe - Stay WARM!
DOC-(In my best Johnny Carson) I did not know that. I'd like to know more
about Harlan's acting career. His voice work is with out compare, but the only
example of his acting I seen was when he appeared with Walter Koenig on BABYLON
5. ALL- Remember, The Late, Late Show with Tom Snyder and Harlan!
Gang - I nuked a Barney Dannelke post
here with a list of HERC members Susan is looking for, mainly because a copy
of the post and the entire list can be found in text/missherc.txt
on this very website. Also archived a ton of stuff, and don't forget if you
don't get a hit on your usual URLs to try harlanellison.com, the change could
come through any day.
Good evening, Music-Lovers... MOIRA> That's the (yes, you're right) Ed
Bryant novelization. Great stuff. If I remember correctly, there's a copy of
the show's bible somewhere on the 'Net, unless it has vanished at Harlan's command
-- try the links page here, or cruise around the You-Know-What channel's Dominion
site thing. BARNEY> Yes, I've read THE STARCROSSED, too. Now what's this about
it being veiled? As far as I can figure, it's the original nightmare made amusing.
SHANE> Now that you mention Joel Grey [in connection with the Dove audio thingus],
did you know that he and Harlan were community theater rivals in Cleveland?
Grey (nee, Mickey Katz) used to just simmer because Harlan beat him out for
roles and all he could get was understudy chores. Unless Harlan is telling a
terrible story, that naughty man,... nah, not our Unca Harlan... MAGGIE> Thank
you for your kind wishes. Maybe I didn't mention, but that was my *great-grand*father's
Yahrzeit; on the other hand, he was the nearest thing I had for a father, as
far as family. "Midnight in the Sunken Cathedral" just tears me up, still. WYLIE>
Wow -- thanks for your interest. There's a link from my rant, but it's not going
to take you many places, 'cause the joint is heavily under remodeling. I don't
want to sully the Comments Bored with html and what-not, so if you and anyone
else who's interested will zap me an e-mail saying so, I'll zap the URL right
back atcha. Say -- anyone hear from that Luesse-woman? Muchas Smooches, all.
(P.S. -- if any of you get a chance to "do lunch" with Bill Dennis, grab it.
He and his wife, Sharon, are warm, wonderful people. Being seen in public with
them will elevate your reputation!) Doc
***Andre *** Regarding the CD-ROM game, I must say I preferred the companion.
It has as much of Harlan in it as the game and the "interface" is less frustrating.
On the other hand, with the exception of Microsoft's "Age Of Empire" , I'm not
much of a gamer. Bitchin' mouse pad however. Who's the 3rd Allentonian? If you
ever see a friendly looking guy with a shaved head and 4 notebooks in front
of him at Hava Java on 19th, say hi....
RE:IHNMAIMS CD ROM Garme- I recently purchased a copy from HERC. Installed
on my computer (a 233, 4.3, 32) and it just wouldn't function. I called my computer
expert and $80 later he couldn't get it to work. Do others have problems playing
the game on a new computer? Thus, I pulled my old 486 out of mothballs and it
works on that computer. What gives? Is it b/c the game wasn't made for the faster
computers-it is 3 or 4 years old. Just wondering. Charlie
REGARDING THE CD-ROM GAME OF "I HAVE NO MOUTH AND MUST SCREAM": Andre K
posted below, saying he couldn't find it; anyone wishing to find a copy can
get one via HERC. They just announced (in their latest newsletter), #20, that
they are selling them to members inside the USA (due to an agreement made when
acquiring the games for HERC). You folks out there that profess to like Ellison
and want more of his things that aren't available really oughta LISTEN UP: write
to HERC, P.O. Box 55548 Sherman Oaks, CA 91413-0548, send them $8 along with
your name and address and you'll get four copies (published when they are ready)
of the newsletter which will keep you abreast of things like this. Not to mention
letting you know, between newsletters even, when extra stock of a book or other
Ellison related item is available through HERC. I know I've mentioned this lots
of times, and I know Rick has touted them (and even has a special cubby hole
here on his site for them), so there is no excuse beyond pure laziness for not
figuring this out already. You'll have to excuse the crankiness of the note,
but some neighbor's idiot spawn woke me up a little early by repeatedly honking
the horn of his car (kids shouldn't be allowed to drive until they are 25 or
older), and now I'm disgruntled cause I know I'm gonna have to go over there
later today (when the kid and the dad or mom is home) and threaten to pound
their heads against a door if they don't wise up. Anyway. PAY ATTENTION (as
a wise writer once wrote). The answer is in front of you if you'll just use
your noggin. Have a nice day. -- DTS
As someone who has both the IHNM&IMS game and its companion volume, I have
to say that it's a lot of fun, helped by the fact that there's a LOT of Harlan
in the game (basis, input, and voice). Now if I could only find the Callahan's
Crosstime Saloon CD-Rom ...
While researching Clarion, Clarion West, and Odyssey for a friend of mine
(who has only been published in Britain and New Zealand), I found that the Odyssey
page has not been updated to reflect what the 1999 session will be; the 1998
information is still there. I wonder if any here would know the particulars,
seeing as Harlan was involved with them last year ...
Wow, three of us in allentown. I just noticed that...I tried to work out
a logical explanation for this: when you live in the Lehigh Valley you have
nothing to do. This leaves a bitter taste in your mouth, which, in turn, leads
you to seek out others who feel the same way, which, (also) in turn leads us
to Harlan Ellison. 'Cause when he bitch, bitch, bitches, we don't feel so bad
when we do either. I dunno. I'm still trying to work it all out. I'm sure if
given time and the right multimillion dollar devices, i could pinpoint the actual-fatual
reason behind The Great Allentown Conspiracy (as I will call it from now on).
*yawn* So I really should be asleep now, but I wanted to see if anyone took
the time to respond...and uh...well..Thanks Barney. Also thanks for answering
my question. I've been asking those dopes at Barnes & Noble about Edgeworks
for months now, and damned if they know anything that doesn't involve Danielle
Steele. A new question now: Has anyone played the IHNMAIMS game? I was thinking
about buying it, but i can't find the darn thing, and i was also concerned that
perhaps it *ahem* was a tad boring...If anyone knows, it'd do me a great service
if you would post your opinions. Thanks. Adios.
Barney: Edgeworks 7 (as listed in the release schedule on Webderland),
was originally supposed to be NO DOORS, NO WINDOWS & SHATTERDAY.
Barney: would you believe that (five years ago) I found a hardcover copy
(1st ed., fine) of FASTER THAN LIGHT in a used SF book store here in "cowtown."
Only paid $10 bucks for it. The illustrations by Tim Kirk are are a bonus. In
addition to the "Phoenix Without Ashes" teleplay by Ellison, there are terrific
essays by Asimov, Bova, Poul Anderson and Keith Laumer; plus more stories by
Anderson Hal Clement, Howard Waldrop and George R.R. Martin (two by him). If
anyone runs across a copy in their local used bookstore, pick it up. It's worth
it. -- DTS
**Andre** Your in Allentown?? Ha! Maybe it's a nexus. Last that I have
heard on Edgeworks 5 is summer 1999. Beyond that, they are bumping whatever
was going to be vol. 7 up to 6 in order for everybody to get in their contributions
to the expanded edition of "Partners in Wonder" [plus time for those stories
to be sold in various markets before being collected, of course.] I don't remember
what the content of 7 was supposed to be but I think that's on the White Wolf
pages somewhere. *** Diana *** Harlan tells a story that he and 'Babs' sang
at the same club once [this would have to have been in the late 50's or early
1960's - the three times I've heard this story he didn't mention the year or
the venue. At any rate, the deal was, a hat was passed and was to have been
split up. According to Harlan, Streisand kept the whole take for the evening
[and the hat?] and to this day owes Harlan $15 bucks [or $5 bucks or $33 depending
on the version]. The very pettiness of the story gives it versimilitude. A year
and a venue would help with veracity... ***Moira/Doc *** Regarding "Phoenix
Without Ashes" - there was a very funny novel by Ben Bova back in the 1970's
titled "the Starcrossed" which was a thinly veiled, slightly exaggerated telling
of the work the two of them did for the the Starlost show. The hardcover has
a great one page blurb by Ellison and the first of two paperback editions had
a cover [DiFate, I think] of Harlan holding a very Buck Rogers type pistol.
Great fun if you can track one down. The Screenplay/teleplay appeared in an
Ace anthology entitled "Faster Than Light" which I believe was edited by Dann
and Zebrowski. Early to mid 1980's and long out of print. *** Moira again ***
You don't remember me? sniff. Well, I was a newbie then... But seriously, thanks
for the B5/Ellison data. I have not been tracking this as closely as the other
stuff, partially because of it's erratic air date schedule, and partially because
I knew someone like you must be out there. I have a friend who is currently
working on a bibliography of all of Harlan's output in every medium and this
thing promises to be very complete. If you happen to know the original airdates
for those episodes or know of a B5 url with that info. please post or drop me
a line. On a related front, if you know of an Ellison appearance that only had
LOCAL coverage [a newspaper interview or University speeking engagement, for
instance] and you know the dates of that interview or the venue, I would like
to incorporate that information into my chronology or the Richmond bibliography.
The more obscure, the better. Also, if anybody has doubles of convention booklets
with Ellison appearances [I-Con and Iguanacon and the last couple of Dragon
con appearances are covered] or is willing to photocopy same, drop me a line.
Obscure is GOOD. Thanks for your time. ****HI EVERYBODY ****
I didn't know there WAS a 'deal' with those two. Babs made a brief appearance
in 'Ecowareness', where her house gets swallowed by a vengeful Earth. Anyone
else? Anyone? Anyone? Mitch
Can you tell me what the deal is between Barbra Streisand and our intrepid
author-god? I admit i am an "admiriing follower" of Babs, but Harlan's what
keeps me sane in this world... So- whats up with these two?
Can you tell me what the deal is between Barbra Streisand and our intrepid
author-god? I admit i am an "admiriing follower" of Babs, but Harlan's what
keeps me sane in this world... So- whats up with these two?
Hey Moira - glad to meet you. Sorry to hear you're temping it. Been there.
Wouldn't wish it on anybody short of Newt Gingrich. Doc - I will wish you comfort
out of your father's Khaddish prayers. I went to the PI site and read the trancsript
of HE's visit, and I would like to say that if I wasn't all that impressed with
HE before, I would be now. I worked on the transcripts for Newton's Apple (public
television science show)for awhile and I learned this - most people speak in
sentence fragments. David Heil (host of aforementioned show) is an idiot. More
uh's and er's per second of screen time than I would've believed humanly possible.
I walked a fine line between trying to make the man intelligible to people reading
the transcript, and an absolute refusal to make him seem like an intelligent
human being. Clearly the transcription service for PI is editing out all of
the er's and uh's, but even so, sentence fragments survive. Check out He. You
gotta love a person who speaks off the cuff in complete sentences. Ok, maybe
you don't, but I REALLY do.
MOIRA: "Demon in the Dust" was the proposed title of a BABYLON 5 script
by Harlan. Joe Straczynski and Harlan realized that the character of Trent from
Harlan's OUTER LIMITS episode, "Demon with a Glass Hand", would still exist
in the time of B5 and it could be fun to have the character show up on the station.
There was even talk of having Robert Culp reprise his role, but it just never
happened.------------------------------------------ALL: I listened to Harlan's
reading of his story, "Go toward the Light", from the Dove audio tape, "Hanukkah
Lights", and I enjoyed it. Here is a synopsis from the Amazon.Com website: "Nightingales
in a War Zone" by Chaim Potok and performed by Joel Grey--an American soldier
stationed in the Far East in the fateful winter of 1956 contemplates war, prejudice
and history. "Gifts of the Last Night" by Rebecca Goldstein and read by Lainie
Kazan--on a wild New York night, the eighth of the Festival of Lights, Pearl
encounters a writer in a restaurant and learns about the most important gift
of all. And "Go Toward the Light" written and read by Harlan Ellison--a quest
back through time answers some spiritual and mechanical questions about the
nature of the first Hanukkah.
To: Everyone So i'm new here...well, OBVIOUSLY i'm new here, you've never
seen a message from me on this board before. ANYway, to follow that suit and
state more of the obvious: i'm a longtime HE fan, and i visit this site pretty
frequently. I haven't ever looked over this message center, however, and I found
it...well...if I say fun, does it make me sound like a loser? Oh well, I'm sure
I'll come off sounding like a loser by the end of this message anyway; so yeah,
it was fun. Okay...now to get down to business, let me ask a question which
I'm sure has been asked at least a thousand times before on this site: When
the hell is Edgeworks 5 coming out? Yes, yes, you've answered it all before
(Well, I can't say as i know that for an absolute fact, because if i did, it
would've been from reading over a posted message that said "Edgeworks 5 coming
on some-undetermined-yet-frustratingly-late-date". I'm jus assuming that in
the plethora of posted messages, there lies an answer to my question. But I'm
lazy, so I'm asking instead of reading them all. I hope that this doesn't offend
those of you who have posted messages before; or leave you grumbling, "Well,
he didn't read OUR messages, why should we read his?" Which would then have
you ignoring this message all together...Which i suppose is impossible because
you're reading these words right now and JESUS GOD this is getting way too long
for a parenthetical deal. Sorry.), but i was wondering if you could answer the
question again. Also, for wit and cynicism musically, it would do some of you
well to check out the band The Dismemberment Plan (terrible name, i know, but
fear not...they aren't some sort of death metal band...More of a Punk meets
James Brown sort of deal), who will be pretty darn huge any day now, seeing
as they've signed to Interscope records. They are smarmy bastards, the lot of
them. But no one, and i mean NO ONE, sounds like them. They have two albums
out now and...well anyway, before I write too much about them: also the lyrics
of Chris Leo...which can be found in his bands The Van Pelt and The Lapse (the
former his second band, the latter his most recent and definitly the best).
They are lyrically astonsihing...touching on mostly political and philosophical
topics. The music's none to shabby either. I gotta go now. I sound like a label
advertising exec., and that's the last thing I want to sound like. Plus i gotta
go blow my nose. Adios.
Oh yeah, DOC -- when you say you got your hands on "Phoenix" do you mean
the bible? or script? or the novelized version written with (I think) Ed Bryant?
I've only ever heard of the book (novel) being available. It would be cool to
see the original spec stuff....Speaking of such I just finished rereading the
book ed of "City on the Edge of Forever" and I am always amazed at what a complete
lamprey (rasp-and-suck) Gene Roddenberry was. Blecch.
DOC....so glad you liked the Yahrzeit (sp?) memorial. It helped me a lot....it
is SO GOOD to see you again! MITCH...ah, a Gerald Kersh quote. It's a stunner.
RICK, dear heart, Moderator of us all, now that we are beginning to bite down
hard on 1999, is there any way to archive some of this BB? It's something like
200 K and my poor old Methuselan computer sits there gasping. Just a thought....
hey, doc, good to see you post. I've never been to your site. What's the
address? Assuming your mention of it included anyone...take care. Wylie
someone posted a few weeks ago (forgive me for not looking back myself)
that Smoke Signals was one of their favorite movies. I watched it today and
it was excellent! Was it from the same people who did Dance Me Outside? I, the
video store manager, should know this, but I don't. Anyway, I might have passed
on watching this if someone here hadn't mentioned it and I want to say, "Thanks!"
Hiya Moira. Welcome back from wherever you've been. You don't know me,
but I've been keeping tabs on you. That guy who looked at you funny the other
day? One of my field agents. Don't bother trying to run...Anyway, I remember
the quote you mentioned at the end of the gopher essay: 'There are men whom
one despises until one sees, through a chink in their armor, the writhing of
something nailed down and in torment' - Gerald Kersh. Have a good week, kids.
Mitch
In case anyone's interested, there are going to be some *serious* changes
at my site, Mesmeratronics, Ltd. Stand by for further details....
MOIRA> Of *course* I remember you -- how could I forget the sweetnik who
was so kind as to send along the Yahrzeit piece when I found out about my dear
friend Adam Roarke's demise? Sorry I haven't been in touch, but well, c'est
moi, dig? As for new (to me) Ellison reading, I recently latched onto a copy
of PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES. Very cool. Seeing the original material, it's hard
to imagine anyone being able to fuck it up -- thereby providing further evidence
of the unlimited capabilities of Show Business. If only they would use their
powers for Good! Nice to hear all the support around here during trying times.
So far, '99 has kept its claws in, but I think that maybe because the New Year
isn't properly awake yet. The major Pfui at this point is that my schul screwed
up the dates for my great-grandad's Yahrzeit (1-7-77) with my pal Adam's. So
Kaddish got read early for Adam and not at all for Papa. I am assured (by the
rabbi) that this grievous error will be rectified next Friday night at Shabbat
services -- we shall see... Meanwhile, I check in when I can: weirdness in the
works. The good kind, but my god, the waiting! Cheers, Doc
Otto: Cordwainer Smith, in the arean of the novel, also wrote The Intrumentality
of Mankind and Quest of Three Worlds (both of which were made up of novellas
and short stories which were previously published. ANd before turning to SF,
he wrote Atomsk, Ria and Carolla -- three separate, maintream/thrillers. Informationally,
the man.
For fairly decent ranting, I'd recommend Michael Moore. Definitely not
Ellison-ish, but properly enraging. Moore's got an agenda the size and subtlety
of the Grand Canyon, but he's still darn good reading -- this is, after all,
the man who gave us "Roger & Me," "Canadian Bacon," "TV Nation," and "The Big
One." If none of these ring a bell, go out and rent the first immediately. The
largest-grossing documentary of all time, and it'll really make you HATE General
Motors. Check out his book: "Downsize This: Random Threats From an Unarmed American".
Also, an unexpected bonus this holiday season: I received as a gift a large
tattered box full of paperbacks, mostly Science fiction. They are largely horrendous,
with pictures of half-naked women shooting laser pistols on the front, but I
managed to find, at the bottom in the corner, a little book called "Norstrillia"
-- apparently, the only novel Cordwainer Smith ever wrote. Great stuff. (I apologize
for any spelling errors that may occur in this missive; I'm writing on a dreadfully
slow computer and I simply don't have the patience to go back and fix all of
my errors.)
Keegan wrote -"cookiecoogan@yahoo.com --(yes, that's really my email address)"
-- well, sure, 'cause you're such a sweet thing!
HEY, Sue, and Jazzlady K....GREAT to see the 2 of you again! And Doc? Where
is Doc? Great to see the "old-timers"...."Demon in the Dust." Argh, that does
sound familiar. Probably if you described a bit about the plot I would remember
it. As it is we're moving and all my Ellison books are packed away. As I sit
here in the typical temp pose of chained-to-the-phone while everyone who works
here is off at some Vision/Quest/Mission/Research/Retreat bureaucratic hellfest,
I amuse myself by remembering the time Harlan Ellison worked for Disney.
MOIRA: Do you remember, "Demon in the Dust?"
Hey, y'all! MOIRA--"I Remember You"! (great tune, btw). Good to see you
back. Hey, SUE! Glad to hear you're still kickin'. RICK, if you're doing a redesign
with multi-threading, would you consider a separate forum for Webderland readers
to post non-HE related topics? I like to talk about other stuff with intelligent
people and I know there's a few of those around here. I use a jazz BBS (jazzcentralstation.com)
that has this feature and it's pretty fun---keeps the main board on topic. They
use a hidden link (a faintly visible chair---when somebody goes off topic or
gets into a personal argument, the posters cry, "Take it to the chair!). The
regulars all manage to find it. Webderland doesn't necessarily need to be THAT
secretive, though. Oh, well. Just a thought.
Moira:Your recollections of Harlan's involvement with B5 seem correct to
me. I'd almost forgotten about his "mission statement" and I've never seen it
either.------------------------------ ALL: I heard yesterday that the (you should
excuse the expression) Sci-Fi Channel has canceled SCI-FI ENTERTAINMENT and
INSIDE SPACE, leaving them with no magazine-format shows. After they'd replaced
SCI-FI BUZZ with S-F E, I wrote them several times asking them to delete the
fan-boy and to give Harlan a commentary slot. If only both of my prayers had
been answered.------Shane
MOIRA!! Of course I remember you. **DOC** Smooches. **BARNEY** Big Hug.
**KEEGAN** I'm not quite dead yet, just resting... ;-) ... I'm doing just fine.
**ALL** I have discovered that the *blissful* 'return to Having A Life after
the last child leaves the house for good' is no more than a brief interlude..
OK! WHO told all those people I had "free time" and "needed something to keep
me busy"? I'll moider da bum!! Haven't had time to do much HE reading of late
- but then I haven't gotten my hands on anything I haven't already read, so
driving needs of addiction have been held at bay.. I lurk a lot - taking down
names and numbers - *giggle* And did someone say JELLO BIAFRA? Hurray!! As soon
as I get my Personal And ALWAYS Correct Opinions off the Emotion charger, I'll
post about the cat thing... hee hee Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
Yeah, me again. What, you expect a temp to actually spend time working?
Every time I try to get into that "Chat Room," the server diddles with itself
and then says not responding, blah blah, whatever. What's up with it?
Well, I just read through the Whole. Damn. Board. Being curious to know
WHAT had happened....and I just _have_ to say this, I think the dead cat got
beaten to death. (Ducking the rotten vegetables now....) ----- *Sue*, *Doc*,
*Keegan*, *Rick*: HI. GREAT to see all of you again. I don't recognize anyone
else....----- Doc: NIN rules. ----- Charlie: re the dead gopher story: it's
one of my favorites -- it's collected in "The Essential Ellison," and is umbilically
linked to the story "The Man who was Heavily Into Revenge." Harlan, in the essay,
muses on different types of revenge and tells the story everyone remembers from
the essay, about how his publisher at the time inserted four-color full-page
cigarette ads into his paperbacks without his permission. (I have an old copy
of Avram Davidson's "Or All the Seas with Oysters" with just such a blecchy
ad.) HE said, he wouldn't allow that. Publishers shrugged and said, "Tough."
HE wanted the rights to his books back, and they wouldn't take him seriously;
the dead gopher is Stage IV, and comes at the end of a long campaign to just
be _listened to,_ and after the dead gopher arrived via fourth-class mail wrapped
in a recipe for gopher stew, the mailroom was fumigated and the rights reverted
back. Instantly. But the reason I wanted to bring this up was -- yes, it's a
funny story -- it's hilarious, especially how HE tells it. But the end of the
story is a stunning quote (I don't have it in front of me -- I'm at work, typing
away on a BB....) that with souls who feel such rage "you can occasionally catch
a glimpse through the chink of a soul nailed down and writhing in torment."
And you quit laughing. Now that's an HE moment. A lot of people seem to think
HE blithely goes around bombing people with dead gophers, gunning for cats (oh,
maybe I shouldn't GO there), tripping little old ladies....Harlan doesn't suffer
fools gladly. In fact, he doesn't suffer them at all. But his thoughts on anger,
and revenge, are complex. I think this was part of the problem with the dead
cat thing (oh, God, am I really doing this?): we all know Harlan hates cats,
tells colorful stories about revenge, and is a rather flamboyant personality....so
there may be more of a tendency to assume "This is Harlan speaking out on how
he detests cats," rather than looking at it in the context of the story. The
story speaks for itself; it stands alone. By the same logic, if TMWRCCA (are
those initials right?) advocates cat torture, "Knox" would advocate racism.
------ On a LIGHTER NOTE: I think Rick could collect more of HE's appearances/contributions
to B5 (I know Rick wants to keep Webderland relatively B5-free, and I think
this is a good idea, but it's good to give Harlan credit). He was a Psi Cop
in "The Face of the Enemy," the voice of Sparky the Computer in....I forget,
and the voice of Zooty's little mechanical puppet in "Day of the Dead." HE came
up with the idea of the Shadow weapon and has story credit on "A View from the
Gallery" and I think "Objects at Rest." (Yeah, I know. I'm a helpless pathetic
B5 junkie. Sue me.) I can't think of any other credits (other than stuff like
Harlan wrote the "mission statement," which as far as I know isn't available
anywhere). Does this sound right, or am I missing some of HE's contributions?
-- It's really a panic to see Harlan standing there dressed in the uniform of
ultimate authority talking with Walter Koenig about how they're going to screw
up this really anti-authority character they've got pinned. I can't remember
Harlan's line exactly, though: "You won't do a complete reprogramming on him?"
Something like that. Time to toggle that "Send message" key like a crazed lab
rat now, before the authority figures come and catch _me_ typing away on their
lovely little Gateway 200 Pentium-powered P5-166 blah blah. Ah, the life of
a temp.
There's a great rant of Jello Biafra's called "Reagan Didn't Know." I don't
know which album it was on, as someone sent me a copy on a mix tape without
an index. It's very intelligent and scathing, and does indeed sound a lot like
Ellison....
Yes it was good to see Harlan get more words in on PI, but remember, the
topics are usually so blase that Harlan really doesnt have much to add. His
thing about not capitolising god in his books was classic Ellison. I agree thats
why god gets the lower case kick in the groin. GOD only creates a world unmanaged
by strife, war and pain. The other problem was, PI goes by so fast your Ellison
fix is hardly satifactorily sated. Is HE a drug or what?? Probobly since hes
never on tv or in the public eye much is the main reason to thank Bill Mahar,
who must be a Harlan buddy. Also spoken word activist Jello Biafra is a good
person to get into if you like harlans ranting. Biafra is much more radical
politically, but they are equally hard nosed and suffer no fools. Check him
out if you can. Peace.
Thanks for posting the PI site! I just finished reading the transcript
and have forgiven my husband for making me miss the show. He's determined to
make sure I catch Tom Snyder Jan. 14. Catch ya'll later--wylie
RICK: Thanks for the correction of Harlan's appearence on Tom Snyder. If
only the site had been up earlier this week! #:^) FWIW, I'd like to see more
updates in the "What's New?" area. The fluidity of Harlan's appearences cry
out for daily information. Thanks, Shane
Ya know, I haven't been here for quite a while, and I do remember the bulletin
board as being a slightly friendlier place....and Doc -- Doc, baby! Is that
you? So nice to see you again. What happened to Sue? I think I remember K. the
jazz lady....and possibly Peter. Well, probably no one remembers who the hell
I am and I'm rattling on to myself, so I'll toggle the "Send message" key like
a crazed lab rat now.
FYI - the Late Late Show appearance has been moved to January 14th. Sorry
for the downtime - as an indirect result we will be moving to a T1 under harlanellison.com
in the near future, and I'm going to try to work a site design and new functionality
including revamped and multiple threaded and passworded message bases. So now's
your chance to tell me what you want!
The transcript for the January 5th episode of Politically Incorrect is
at: http://abc.go.com/pi/forum/word_index.html
KEEGAN: Your comments make me want to kick myself again for missing it,
especially since I'd posted the date here a few weeks back. Illnesses in the
family have made things a bit wonky of late.--------------------------------------------------
*Yesterday I received a note from Susan Ellison stating that Harlan will be
on The Late, Late Show with Tom Snyder on January 15th. Since Snyder is leaving
the show this may be the last time we get to see these two together.*
I saw it; didn't tape it unfortunately. Harlan was great! I've seen his
other PI appearances, and he sat back and listened more and hardly got a word
in (but, ooh boy! What words!). Last night, he listened as usual(I mean, there's
a cat you can *see* actively listening), but he got a bigger piece of the conversation.
You'll have to check the transcripts for the words, but HE was hip, cool, and
in control. I felt the topics of conversation for the evening were somewhat
lame (Bill Maher really didn't want to get into Clinton, so he said, but it
always seemed to end up there). They talked about whether "addiction" was a
reasonable word to use in one person's "unreasonable" or unhealthy attachment
to another person, whether pregnant girls should be able to sue their school
for not being admitted to the National Honor Society despite their excellent
grades, and whether or not the Bible should be tax exempt. The topics were a
yawn but HE was a hoot.
Ohh! Please let there be a kind soul out there who can get me a copy of
"Politically Incorrect" from Tuesday Night. I'd prefer a video tape, but would
be happy right now to get an audio tape. Many Thanks, Shane
hey! I finally got through! Was everyone shut out? Thanks for answering
my query, Rick, about why I couldn't reach the board. So I missed Politically
Incorrect because someone was supposed to wake me up for it and failed! How
was it? I've been home with bronchitis, miserable, and was really looking forward
to time online and watching HE on PI--what a disappointment. Oh well, someone
tell me it sucked and make me feel better, okay? Nah, don't lie. Have to go
back to work tonight for end-of-the-year inventory and don't expect to emerge
'til daylight tomorrow. Ack! TTFN--wylie
Hey Peg! YES! I am dying to hear the answer to those questions. Can't believe
it was colder here than there! I just checked our local weather geek's site,
and it is currently -11 with a windchill of -39. Bought new Sorel's over the
weekend. Old ones were sort of beat up. Those Canadians sure make darn good
boots. Doc: My year from hell was 1993. I had major vehicle problems to start
the year, got my wallet stolen, had every upper respitory track infection known
to medical science (at the same time), found out I had to move (within in two
weeks) and have major abdominal surgery in the same week, severely sprained
my ankle the Monday before Thanksgiving, and on Thanksgiving Day, my beloved
Grandfather passed away, leaving me to make the most unbelievably difficult
and scary cross country trek with my pregnant sister and her year old baby in
order to attend his funeral. I spent the entire month of December gritting my
teeth and hoping for no more bad events. It seems that you will have bad news
this year. I will wish for this to be as bad as it gets and I will wish your
cousin peace. Bill: I am certain that I have read the piece in question as I
have read Shatterday, but it is not leaping into my mind at the moment. However,
one of my projects for this month is to re-read my collection of HE works. Hey,
I just got notice from eBay that I was the high bidder on a HE work - The Twilight
Zone as a comic book. Looking forward to getting my hands on it. Well, I wish
you all a very bright new year!
And Rick, I swear to God I only hit the send button once. It sent me back
to the main board without my initial posting of my second message. I went back
and reposted. Still no message. "Ah," sez me. "Let's try reloading the page."
Sure, enough--there I am not twice, but thrice. Just FYI....
A special hello to Todd Mason who speaks my language (he spoke the magic
words "Hard Bop"). Hey, man. I hear ya. I pose as a jazz purist because it is
profitable for me to do so. I'm gaining some notoriety as a "jazz educator"---something
that I personally find repugnant since most of what I learned I got from paying
my dues in dives. I got book learnin' from college, but jazz don't come from
there! I really have an open mind about music. Hell, just the other night, my
man and I were humming the Ramones "I Wanna Be Sedated." I'd never let my mentor
hear it, though! I dig LOTS of stuff, but jazz, in all it's myriad forms including
free, is the only thing I wanna do. The rest is all fodder and fun. Take care,
man!
A special hello to Todd Mason who speaks my language (he spoke the magic
words "Hard Bop"). Hey, man. I hear ya. I pose as a jazz purist because it is
profitable for me to do so. I'm gaining some notoriety as a "jazz educator"---something
that I personally find repugnant since most of what I learned I got from paying
my dues in dives. I got book learnin' from college, but jazz don't come from
there! I really have an open mind about music. Hell, just the other night, my
man and I were humming the Ramones "I Wanna Be Sedated." I'd never let my mentor
hear it, though! I dig LOTS of stuff, but jazz, in all it's myriad forms including
free, is the only thing I wanna do. The rest is all fodder and fun. Take care,
man!
Oooh! Oooh! I know this one! Wylie, Politically Incorrect is on ABC at
roughly 12 AM Eastern time. Depends on the news of the day and if Ted Koppel
has to spend a few more minutes with the Talking Heads du jour (now THAT was
a good band!)Greetings and Happy New Year wishes to all! Sue--I miss ya hope
all is well. Doc, man--hang tuff. You are hipness. Barney, well I just dig Barney.
Best wishes to all and sundry at Webderland. Blowing a special little kiss Wyatt's
way---just to be cute. Can you tell that I've spent the last 8 hours in a room
with 20 jazz musicians? New Year's resolutions? TO READ MORE DAMN HARLAN ELLISON
SO THAT I MIGHT CONTRIBUTE MORE THAN NOISE HERE. Oops. Sorry to yell. Oh, and
on the question of fiction v non-fiction: I love HE's stories dearly. His writing
is so Beautiful (and I mean that with a capitol B), but I sometimes don't "get
it." I admit my conservative tendency towards something straight-up that I can
understand right away. I *love* Harlan's non-fiction writing. He hits hard and
I generally find myself agreeing with him. Maybe I agreed all along and Harlan
gives it eloquent voice, or maybe I'm just easily persuaded by such living,
hard-swinging language. I dunno. In a way, that's what he gives us in all those
thoughtful intros to his stories and books---the non-fiction behind the fiction.
Anyway......
what network shows politically incorrect? and anyone know what time it's
on?
Oh, it's on its way. Trust me. Iggy Pop is being used for advertising jingles
so Goth cultural absorbtion is right around the corner. hee hee.
Barney::: Can I find that section in ye' olde paperback superstore? or
do I have to scour the specailty shops? Actually. When I first saw "goth chick"
I misread it and thought it said "Goth chic" I had this horrible image of goth
yuppies playing squash or sitting around a starbucks chain tattoo/piercing parlor
talking about how much money they made even though death was stalking them at
every turn. Going to work looking like a cross between Robert Smith of the Cure
and Edward Scissorhands. Stepping into an office elevator and listening to Goth
Rock on a hammond organ. And fortunately, since I don't know a whole helluva
lot about the goth lifestyle, I was able to keep my imagination in check. Still.
frightening images.---Peter
For up to the minute Good Goth Chick Lit. [It's a genre, no really!] try
Caitlin R. Kiernan. She wrote "Silk" and has had stories in "Love In Vein II"
and "Sandman: Bool Of Dreams". Poppy, Clive Barker and Gaiman all sing her praises.
She is also the semi-regular writer on D.C. comics "The Dreaming" series and
is the 1st writer to really click on that series. Currently reading Donald Westlake's
"Humans" and "Cthullhu 2000". Joe Bob Dannelke sez checkitout... *** Doc ***
You scored major street cred points with me for the Cramps plug. *** Nicole
*** Look up Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds and the poetry and music of Jim Carrol
while you are on this role. Later...
Doc::: you just don't understand. Those aren't nearly goth enough... okay
I'll shut up now, since I'm about as hip to the goth thing as the republicans
are to the constitution thing. Speaking of Goth... I've read half of Poppy Z.
Brite's LOST SOULS today. I figure I'll finish it tonight. I'll reserve judgement
until I'm done, although it won't lead me to a gothic conversion. Still. I can
see a little of what Ellison sees. Her writing is powerful. Poetry in prose
as I like to say. ---Peter ("Those who do not know history are doomed to rewrite
it"---Me, unless someone proves otherwise)
doc> it's actually not too-far-after-the-fact for your comments about a
boy and his dog, because i still haven't watched it. i mentioned it to one of
my clerks at my store and he rented it before i could. punk! anyway, your answer
was what i was looking for. thank you. i'm really choking on that near miss
with HE doing a column for the chronicle. i would have loved that! regrets regarding
the loss you're enduring. i hope the new year brings you a large serving of
peace, rather than the continued pain you are anticipating. take care. wylie
HEY NICOLE> If metion of David Bowie, NIN, and the Cramps doesn't point
you in a Goth-erly direction, what do I have to add to the list?!?
Wylie> I will subdue the urge to make some witty remark about Wylie Post,
and say instead, probably too far after-the-fact that "A Boy and His Dog" is
a winner. It is the only adaptation of his work I'm aware of that carries Harlan's
official squeal of approval right there at the end of the flick. So what does
that tell you? Mighty faithful adaptation, and a nifty movie. RE: the Essay
vs. Fiction thing -- He comments here, he comments there, he comments bloody
everywhere, that damned elusive Pimpernel. Unfortunately, you have to go lookin'.
Harlan was inches from a regular book review column for the SF Chronical, but
the bastards shot him down. If you want further details, take a look at my last
rant. In brief, Harlan would be doing more essays, if he had a place to publish
them. The people he's written for have consistently done him dirty on the editorial
end of it, which absolutely ignites him, so he's swears off doing business with
the creeps ever again. If there were a major paper out there that would follow
his rules (and they aren't unreasonable), we'd be seeing more essay work. As
for 1998, 1999 can only be marginally worse. Otherwise, I'm petitioning the
factory for a recall. Since last we gathered at the campfire, the family dog
has gone to her greater reward. With any luck at all, my sweet departed Rosie
is somewhere in the canine afterlife, frolicking with Abhu. Then, on a heavier
note, my cousin is being slowly carried 'cross dat ol' River Jordan by cancer,
which flatly refuses to respond any further to chemotherapy. She doesn't expect
to see the New Year, but as I have not had that tear-filled phone call yet,
she just might. So, that's me, haunted by the dead and dying. 1998 has been
getting in every last fucking kick in the ribs it can. For all I know, it's
pulling its punches, just softening me up for '99. This is too much. Welcome
to the new friends, and "Hi-dee Ho!" to the rest. This is all I can stand, I'll
check in some other time. If it encourages anyone, I'm typing up the reviews
of LOVE AIN'T NOTHING BUT SEX MISSPELLED for Harlan's perusal, so they ain't
too far from appearing here. Cheers (Ha!), Doc
P.S. - I don't know what's wrong with the clock on this site, but Happy
New Year! Do I get a prize for being the first post of 1999??? (it's only 4:30
here, but what the hey?!)
*Maggie* - oooh, that wind chill is a killer. It's not so bad when it's
just around freezing. But it seems like once it hits 15F or colder that wind
chill is so much worse. Case in point: this morning on our weather display it
was only -10F. The wind was only around 5 - 10 MPH but that took the temp. with
wind chill down to -35F. I can only imagine how horrid it was with 30 - 50 MPH
wind, and you were waiting outside at a bus stop. *UGH* [gads, I - as a southern
california native - would never have imagined as a child saying something like
"it was only -10F] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, does anybody want to know the answers to the three questions I posted (what
seems like) eons ago??? I'd forgotten about it with all the brouhaha since....
Ta, Peg