Otto <Ottomaniac@yahoo.com>
- Monday, March 22, 1999 at 18:45:35 (CST)
Otto <Ottomaniac@yahoo.com>
- Monday, March 22, 1999 at 18:45:35 (CST)
DOC: I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to clue me in a little on the "100 years, 100 stars" thing. I am a self-proclaimed amateur film fanatic, but I am currently isolated in THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, INDIANA, with no resources to the outside world beyond Newsweek and an irate German professor who screams at us regularly for not keeping up with current events.
PETER: Don't worry about it. My roommate has to review papers from a "peer editing group." I have been helping out by reading the group's efforts and advising comments to be written on them, such as, "My roommate's ass could write better than this," "It is just as obvious that you came to school only to play football as it is that you're not intelligent enough to pick a school with a good football team" and, "Don't make me kill you, you narrow-minded religious prick." My efforts are not entirely appreciated.
ALL: Thanks so much for the feedback on Elia Kazan. I was beginning to think I was the only outraged human being in the universe. I should have known better. (Damn, these Harlan Ellison fans are neat people!)
PETER> *ALL* art (or Art) is self-indulgent. It's the self-righteous and/or self-congratulatory back-patting shit that bugs the bejabbers outta me. 'Sokay -- as with acting, anyone who *can* be discouraged from it *should* be. Bah-humbug.
Has anyone noticed me getting meaner and more vociferous about my opinions? The reason I'm asking is because I just got back from my writing class, and I just ripped into the stories that were workshopped. I think I used the phrases "whiny" and "self indulgent" about one of them. Sheesh, between getting my midterm grades, writing stories, critiquing stories, programming in C++, doing homework, attempting a social life, and reading Paul Riddell's essays online, I'm becoming extremely short tempered and easily incensed. I think this is called a slow road to burn out. Still, I'm sorry if I've seemed a little harsh lately. Hopefully, with spring break next week, I'll transform back into my usual, sunny self, and Mr. Hyde will creep back into the shadows, at least until finals.
---Peter
Is he gone? That guy, that... Syzzle-guy?
Phew! Well, I've been out for awhile, but I'm feeling very fresh, now, real good about myself -- and let us never speak of him again.
As for the Kazan thing, I keep thinking about the Nueremberg defense. To think that such terrific pictures could come from a man so small, so mean, frightened and cowardly! It boggles the mind. I also think he was/is a rat. I did not watch the Oscars, haven't done so in years because I have a pretty good idea what to expect -- and what I expect is *not* a postumous Lifetime Achievement Award to the late Mr. Kubrik, whose work has been (with the exception of "The Shining") so stellar.
I have to ask myself why anyone is genuinely surprized about Kazan's award, though. The money men in Hollywood are notoriously conservative, and look at the current political climate -- of course that fink is a hero to the Academy! I don't like it either, but what can one do?
As an (I think) interesting side-track, anyone have an opinion about the AFI's "100 Years, 100 Stars" thing? My own is none too flattering, but I'd love to hear what others (apart from you-know-who) think.
Yours Truly, the Wise Guy From the West (and I hope this doesn't mean I get a house dropped on me...)
I didn't watch one bit of the Oscars. I watched "The Rapture" on the Independent Film Channel.
The next best thing to watching them, however, is reading Camille Paglia's take over at Salon. http://www.salonmagazine.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/03/cov_22featurea.html
Paglia feels the Kazan protest is a PC thing. I disagree. I'm not sure Kazan's movies are so terrific, not after being reminded of the movies in the article Peter recommended. Yes, some great acting to be sure, but really, does Kazan's art transcend his betrayal? Well....., I'm far too ignorant to go into that territory.
Anyway, it's a highbrow gossipy hoot of an article. Watching teevee vicariously through Camille is fun.
*** Peter *** Thanks for the heads up on the Kazan article. I'm still digesting some of it. Quite a bit of info there and a nice source bibliography to boot. I love content. I watched the award to Kazan [hell, it was the only interesting part] and what really hurt was seeing Scorsese and DeNiro give it to him. My Fantasy Snub would have had it presented to him by the cast of "I Still Know What You Did Last Summer." Or Marlon Brando presenting it by videotape while lying naked in a hammock, in between bites of some big old turkey breast. Hey, it's my fantasy.
Nick Nolte, hands folded in his lap was the only touch of class I saw. Was it me, or was that room celebrity Lite?
Hi--I was upset to see that of the four PI transcripts in the "I Write" section the infamous Kazan discussion episode was not included. I was looking for a copy to show a few of my friends and refresh my own memory. Also, Rick, maybe Harlan would allow his Kazan footnote from the Slippage intro to appear in "I Write" so his side of the story could be told to a wider audience. (I'm only asking because I didn't take my ltd. edition to school with me.)
howdy gang. i did watch the oscars, with some family and the coveat (sp) that we all boo elia kazan. to respond to the previous post, it was necessary for some to stand and some to sit to differentiate between who supported the award, and who did not. to me it looked like an even split and i thought it was rather civilized. it wasn't what i would call a standing ovation. i'm glad i didn't miss roberto benigni tiptoeing across the backs of the seats to dance on the stage when life is beautiful won for best foreign film. he was adorable. wish i'd caught his film in the theater. otherwise, it was even more dull and liveless a show than ever. don't think there was any rehersal at all, lighting and direction were weak, and everyone just looked a little ill at ease. flop, to use the technical term. big, fat belly-flop. 'night all. wylie
Well, I made it without watching the Oscars.
I read some of the online news articles. The spineless, soulless, memory-impared drones in the audience apparently gave him a standing ovation. Here's my idea for an even more tasteless encore next year. Have a CG version of the late Pol Pot presenting a lifetime achievement award to the late Dr. Haing S. Ngor. And we could always use a "Hitler did some good things" speech.
One news item did mention that some audience members refused to applaud and named Nick Nolte and Ed Harris among them. Good for them!
And they actually picked a movie I liked for Best Picture. First time since Unforgiven.
I'm sitting here, not watching the oscars, despite the fact that my roommate is. grrrr.
---Peter
Peter: I went to the URL you gave for the article on Kazan. Excellent. Thank you.
Interesting discussion. When I was young, I used to go head to head with my conservative father about the evils of the USA. He would always say, "If you don't like it leave." Well, I would if I could but I can't, so there it is. Gotta deal with it. I actually don't think it's bad. What's so great about this country is that you're allowed to speak out against its evils and you're allowed to work peaceably (and may I add creatively) for change. In the most extreme of circumstances, it might come down to "by any means necessary" but at least one HAS options of dialogue and democratic process. It ain't necessarily so in other places on the globe. I express my patriotism by voting and refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance. That doesn't mean I don't respect the flag. We post the colors on major state holidays. It just means that I'd rather reflect at that moment than speak.
Our constitution gives us those marvelous first amendment rights to free speech, and it has the glorious fifth amendment that guarantees our right to shut up. Isn't that cool?
Anyway, I'm not a major movie freak. I don't watch the Oscars and I maybe go to two movies a year (usually kidstuff for my spawn--Mulan and A Bug's Life were the last two movies I saw in the theater). I do try to keep up on history though. I think that giving a lifetime achievement award to a rat fink is an American tragedy. WHY are they doing this? Is it in some way to prove to the conservative movement in this country that Hollywood is not some kind of liberal, anti-family, pro-democratic, pro-smut cesspool? Wasn't there some other brilliant career they could have chosen to honor?
Barney, I agree wi your comments regarding patriotism 100%.
Patriotism, like religious belief, is inherently neither good nor bad. It simply is.
It is the people who are good and bad and can use such concepts as patriotism or faith to justify their actions. Sometimes that's good - like my dad in Vietnam - he was a hero just as almost every other soldier there was.
But patriotism is also the last refuge of a scoundrel and can be used to justify one's own personal prejudices and evil impuleses.
I believe that is what Tolstoy really meant.
Kazan's a bum and a snitch, patriot or not, and that's all you realy need to know.
***Peter*** Lest anybody think I've suddenly become the resident crank on this list, taking exception at the drop of a hat, let me say that I also didn't expect things to go that way with Syz. This is not a retraction. I called him out on tone and I have no regrets about that. I respect his attempts to raise the bar but William F Buckley himself couldn't have been less inclusive. And y'all are so polite I thought I'd volunteer myself to get in the pissing match. I thought [in a perverse and misguided way] that it might be fun. It was never my intention that he pick up his verbal marbels and stalk off the playground. If only the dynamics of alt.fan.ellison worked that way - I'd pick nits over there every damned day. And he did kick Vonnegut.
***SUE!!!*** OK, so you can bench press whatever I can. Plus a rep or two. Folks, for those who don't know Sue - everything Stephen King said in Danse Macabre about how Harlan is exactly the kind of person you want on your side when your having congestive heart failure on a busy street corner, well, that's Sue in spades. If only the Spartans had you to inspire those whining mercenaries or guard that ill-fated goat path. And from Spartans we go to my rant on patriotism...
While also unable to think of anything nice to say about Kazan or his revisionist apologists I think I'm going to take exception to Chris's last couple of comments. A patriot [from the Greek 'patris' ie. "fatherland" ] is somebody who loves and defends, or is willing to defend their country. Now, while the circumstances under which one might ethically or morally defend their country ought to be examined, the notion that patriotism is an evil thing sort of implies that everybody who ever died defending this country [or any other country] was misguided. I just can't buy that. If the architect of a concentration camp or it's guards and jailers rationalize that they are acting out of patriotism when their true motives are racism and paranoia, well this just corrupts the actual meaning of the word.. I think Tolstoy was right in advocating humanity or 'humanism' OVER patriotism and nationalism but in a world where 'the State" shows no sign of withering away and the alternate to patriotism is apathy or contempt, well then, I'll defend patriotism.
ps. I think one can be a skeptic, a cynic (like Diogenes) and a patriot. I am vast, I contain multitudes. And Hawaiian pizza...
I'm not sure I have a lot to add to the comments on Kazan except to say that I am as sickened as most of you seem to be.
Film is an important part of my life - I consider it a personal passion. I went to film school. I write scripts in my free time though I cannot claim to have seriously pursued film as a vocation.
That said, I will not be watching the Oscars this year. This will be the first time this decade I have not watched the ceremonies. I am boycotting the Oscars because they have chosen to bestow an award on this monster.
I've always been fond of saying "Snitches go to hell." Apparently, I was wrong. They get lifetime achievement awards.
Perhaps in a few years we'll be able to give him the award he truly deserves by visiting his burial site and pissing on his grave. It's what he did to so many whose names he named.
As for those who have rewritten history to claim Kazan was merely a patriot, I offer the words of Leo Tolstoy, who said, "Nationalism and patriotism are sins; sins against humanity and the human spirit."
Patriots interred Japanese-Americans during World War 2.
Patriots slaughtered Jews at Auschwitz and Dachau.
I'll admit to being one of the uninformed masses. When I heard they were giving the lifetime achievement award to Elia Kazan, I said "Who?" . The name had a ring of familiarity but I didn't know why.
This doesn't stop me from being appalled that hollywood would award such an honor on a person involved in the McCarthy scandals. So at least I knew about those.
For me this begs the question... how much history is needed before people feel children have an adequate education? I've heard a lot of the arguments about how education has gone downhill, and I'm sure it's deteriorated in some way. But I'm sure that each generation just can't fathom how "kids these days" didn't know or hadn't heard of some item or issue or act from their own recent history which held significance for them.
So, with the rapid political, social, and technological changes faced in recent years, and with these growing ever speedier, just how much can you cram into 12 years of schooling?
Peg
A pointed, yet poignant article on Kazan can be read on the World Socialist Web Site:
http://wsws.org/articles/1999/feb1999/kaz1-f20.shtml
It does a relatively good job of describing Kazan, the man, the director, the stool pigeon. It includes brief analyses of his movies. And while the author admits to bias, it certain is better reading than those damned congratulatory articles that some papers have been printing. Also, I was wondering what others thought of this article.
---Peter
As a populous, we suffer from ostrich syndrome. We think that if we hide our head in the sand and ignore the bad thing, then the bad thing will go away. Not that individuals such as ourselves don't recognize the evils, both today, and in history, it's just that the corporate entity known as the people has a serious case of the NOT-MEs. Throughout the recent clinton scandals, we saw a lot of elephants stand up and scream that the whole mess was Nixon redux. What most people didn't say was that the whole starr investigation was a repeat of McCarthyism, pure and simple. Starr brought back all of the kafka-esque fears and situations that plagued one of the darkest decades of this century. Only this time, sex, not communism was involved. To honor Kazan for a lifetime of artistic merit is to honor a man whose own willing participation in the communist witch-hunt, allowed him to become a top figure in the very art he tried to destroy. This would be like the Bar association giving starr an award twenty years from now for diligence in the pursuit of justice. Because we are so easy to forget the past, we will forever be doomed to repeat those mistakes which have plagued us. If anything the recent witch-hunts have proved this. Next time it could be something as volatile as sexual proclivity, or it could be something as innocuous as owning a foreign stereo system; whatever the case, we will see another witch-hunt in the near future because we forget our history and that frontier of memory is shrinking every day.
Okay, stepping off the soap-box, my anger is slightly vented. Still, I'd like to find the doctor who has written the prescription for stupid pills that has been given to most of the populous. If you ask most people, they won't know who Kazan is. That's partially understandable, he is not exactly taught in schools. Unfortunately, if you ask those same people, they'll say that McCarthy was the cute Beatle, huac had something to do with the oil crisis, and black lists were a disco craze. Bloody hell.
---Peter
Time now to infuritate the masses. (Like y'all aren't already.) The rewriting of history to portray Kazan as a victim of patriotism makes me wonder how the current occupant of the White House will be portrayed in, oh, twenty years. (Roughly half the time that passed since EK ruined so many lives with his behaviors and actions.) I'd suggest not watching the Oscars in protest of this honor to be bestoyed, but since the Oscars are such a political effort anyway, the better thing might be--
No. That would only put you in the same class as EK. Anyway, I do suggest you go see LIFE IS WONDERFUL. It is wonderful. (He said, grinding his teeth at the fact he just used a reaaaaaally bad cliche.) Until next time. . .
I'm gonna take an unpopular stance and say, I just didn't see it. I certainly felt that Syz was making an honest to goodness effort. And in the end, he proved that he was as vulnerable as the rest of us. I can't condone his behavior at the last, but I can certainly understand it. His feelings about Gardner seem to be on par with our feelings about Ellison. So we managed to finally peel back that armor which he so fervently paraded. We elicited from him, a visceral response to an attack on his own literary hero.
Reading back on the posts, I got a sense that Syz was really trying to hold back. He was making a deliberate effort to tone down his posts, write in simpler language, and curb his natural tendancy toward snobbishness. When he was called on something that made him seem priggish (like when he was first called on the use of the term fichtean) he made an effort to apologize and even asked if he was wrong in his use of the term. It was only after his apology was apparently not accepted that he freaked.
Now, I'm not blaming anyone for what's happened here. But I'm not exactly proud of how we've all behaved. I have a feeling that very few here will agree with me on this one. That's okay. Although I've never been one to broadcast an unpopular view I may hold, I've gotta start sometime.
This is the last I'm going to write on this subject. I want to move on and put this unpleasantness behind us. But should the syzygy one ever decide to come back, I hope we can be a little more understanding, and maybe a little more forgiving.
---Peter (a not so happy camper)
Wow, go away for a couple of weeks and look what all happens!
Hawaii was great - every woman deserves an afternoon at the Grand Wailea Spa, accept no substitutes - and Hong Kong was tons-o-fun, definitely an interesting place which I would love to return to with more time. Did not get to eat nearly enough cuisines in HK, and you can never have enough beach time in Hawaii. Seems like we walked for miles every day.
Call me naive, but I just took Syz's approach as a personal style thing and blew it off afterward to focus on content (that is, once the majority of posts were devoid of the personal insult thing). Reading some of the material from the last 2 weeks, it looks like there was *some* constructive discussion occurring; certainly I was getting an education (heck, I'm lucky if I understand what y'all are talking about even half the time). But I suppose sometimes you just gotta realize when one of the guests is ruining the party for everyone else, intentionally or otherwise. You make your polite request to alter behavior, then eventually just ask 'em to leave. Restrict your interaction to other venues.
I didn't catch the PSI factor or Outer Limits shows. Anyone know when the re-runs are on?
Peg
I agree with all the Kazan comments. Well said, Rick. As HE said, Hitler may have painted roses, but he shouldn't be rewarded for making one or two beautiful paintings, then with the other hand slaughtering millions upon millions of humans. Disgusting. On a lighter note, I found a cookbook of Anne McCaffreys with recipes from SF writers. HE had a coffee receipe and wrote a mini essay about it. I didn't pick it up, but thought it worth mentioning. Also, Gahan Wilson's story from A, DV, which has no title, but is the ink blob, is reprinted in his latest collection out now on TOR. Also, Edgeworks 1 is out in paperback, will all the nifty corrections-especially the one re: THE date, which so irked HE. Charlie
The AP ran a piece about Kazan and the protesters…I found it at
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/078/living/Blacklisted_writers_protest_Kazan_honor+.shtml
And there are people, unfortunately with voices and respectable pulpits, who stand up for the man. The token conservative columnist on the Globe’s staff, Jeff Jacoby, ran an ugly piece on March 8…I’ll try to lay my hands on it…at least, the beginning of it ran:
“KAZAN DESERVES HIS OSCAR AND OUR APPLAUSE FOR BEING ANTICOMMUNIST
Elia Kazan had a choice in 1952: to stand with the communists or to stand against them. He chose to stand against them, and Hollywood’s Stalinists have reviled him ever since.”
Anyone know of plans for organized protest?
I'm steamed about Kazan and I know for a fact Harlan is FURIOUS over it. To me, it just shows how completely ignorant most people are of what really happened with the HUAC and McCarthy. People who are NOT plotting against the government, who were NOT involved in any sort of "Red Menace" -- people who were merely exersizing their right to free thought and speech -- these people were hounded, ruined, disgraced, jailed, and treated as pariahs. And it's folks like Kazan who pointed them out.
I see little difference between Kazan's finger pointing and some bastard who showed the Nazis the hidden trapdoor to the hidey-hole of a family of Jews. The thing that makes it even MORE reprehensible is that Kazan didn't HAVE to name names. Unlike many others who faced unbelievable pressure, Kazan was well-off and well-respected and didn't have to worry about not being able to keep his house or feed his children.
Furthermore, Kazan remains unrepentant and unremorseful. He continues to state that he did the right thing in ruining so many lives. The saddest thing of all is there are people who agree with him. His actions were part of a dark and ugly period in America's history -- it's one thing to give him Oscars for his individual achievements (Oscars he won mainly during the blacklist period), but to reward him for a lifetime of acheivement is to condone his cowardice and selfishness.
Kazan may have done great work and influenced many of today's actors and directors - but his enduring legacy is one of betrayal and pain. In my house we shun monsters, we don't give them pretty gold statues. And if you think that makes me as bad as he is, just remember -- Kazan actually did something to DESERVE my anger.
French? as in Fries, Dressing, and overpriced restaurants? ;-) geez KEEGAN, and you think *you* are under-educated... I still haven't figured out how to spell Wella - but I think I got *moi* down pat, now.. Haven't heard any French Rap, but have been listening to Bongra (from the subcontinent of India).. talk about "different".. but still gets under the skin with those rhythyms and makes the toes tap involuntarily..
MAGGIE! Welcome back! I'm waiting patiently at the Golden Oracle of Gossip, and it looks to be way cool.. Sailors on top of the L'Arc de Triomphe? Always wondered why they called it that.. Boy, the French think of everything, don't they.. Spew, honey, spill it all - make me crazy with envy. :-)
BILL D - been there, done that - sucks, doesn't it? hee hee
Charlie - yeah, I gotta agree with you, Syz is pretty impervious to what other people think or say or feel..
On the Kazan thread - *sigh* - guess it's true they put something in bottled water that eliminates long term memory.. Not sure it's worth the hassle of a cross-country trip, but sure takes the status of that award down several notches..
Off to play with my *new* toy - an Irish Harp Hubby surprised me with on St. Pat's Day.. Really cool, and a big adjustment from guitar.. may take a while before the dogs stop howling along in accompaniment..
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
Jeez - I only remember enough French to get my face slapped. Oddly, I can make the same claim for Spanish and German. Bad influences all around...Maggie - welcome back. I'm glad you had a good trip. Otto - I spit when I heard Kazan was getting the life achievement award. I don't think it matters how greatly his work advanced the art of film - in my view, it was built on the bones of everyone he ratted out the McCarthy. If I weren't on the other side of the country, I'd be up for a bus trip and protest. The lesson apparently is Hollywood can forgive, but has trouble with apologies...
I'm as far from an expert as you can get on the subject of the french language. So I only know what people tell me. I do believe, however, that the french have a literary tense of their verbs so as to make writing a neater chore than us with our past perfect, future perfect, perfect perfect and not-so-perfect tenses. As I said, I'm just repeating what I've heard. Literature-wise, Voltaire's Candide is one of the most poignant stories I have ever read, and Emil Zola's Germinal is a disturbingly brilliant tragedy.
---Peter
bonjour tout le monde! is that right? high school french is so far from me now the dust has not only settled, it's part of a new galaxy. welcome home, mags :). sue: you are a goddess of clear seeing. i think you nailed the syz syndrome perfectly, esp. with the way he diverted the topics to his pet bits of expertise and "held court." it's actually something i have to watch myself about and i resent it in others. i appreciate older people who have grown out of that fragile shell of trying to appear smarter and more knowledgeable than they are. the thing about those shells is that others can always see in, but the wearer can never see out. call me a cracker, but i just think it smells a lot better around here now. more later--psycho-toddler has finally succumbed to the sand-person (ca pc talk) and it's grown-up time at wylie's place. take care all. wylie
Maggie: Oooh la la! Bienvenue, deja (ooh, would the French have a field day with my poor canuck patois!)! Please do tell! Looking forward to reading you 'round these parts.
On a side note, French IS an interesting language. I ain't no expert, but I have read LE PETIT PRINCE and L'ETRANGER in their original language and my opinion (as the undereducated American swine that I am) is that French literature in French says much more than French literature in translation. More nuance in French, IM (very limited and hardly informed)O. Any francophiles wish to comment?
And hey, man--I'm w/ Bill. If your Spanish is better than your French, go for Spanish. The French will at least give you credit for trying ONE other language than Standard American English (or Canadian, I'm not *exactly* sure where home is for ye, Maggie!). And by all means, don't slaughter French in front of the French.
Un autre sidenote: French rap is very hip. Anybody ever hear any?
As for whoever asked me about that singer: nope. Never heard of her, but now I have. Will hunt it down. CDNow is *my* best friend.....
Love and all best to all!
MAGGIE: Welcome back. Hope you had fun with your sailor. How'd the French take hearing Spanish? I ask because we used to live in Germany and made a trip to Paris. I didn't speak French, knew that "American" wasn't a good choice, so I decided to order in German. Mistake. Big Mistake. BIG BIG MISTAKE. -- Billy D.
Man! A girl goes out of the country for a couple of weeks, and y'all run amok! I was able to read about 3 days worth while I was on the other side of the world, but I will be catching up for WEEKS! The conversations look very interesting though. The bad news is that I was unable to find any HE books in French. The good news is that I was able to find a LOT of SF/Fantasy authors. I almost bought a bunch of them, but stuck to my budget and bought the French Shakespeare and Moliere.
I had many adventures while I was gone (met a sailor on top of L'Arc de Triomphe, flew in on the wings of a hurricane - that would be Cyclone Davina for those you interested in such things - played in the ocean and walked on new earth. Not to mention the completely entertaining fact that my friend and I ate in an Italian restaurant in Paris and placed our order in Spanish!).
Soon as I get caught up on all of the back posts, I will have something a heck of a lot more relevant (I hope) to contribute.
Au revoir!
This is what I see: Syz, for some reason takes this BBS and his own opinions WAAY too seriously. That's probably, much as I can tell why Syz doesn't dig Vonnegut. Vonnegut is kind of irreverent. He points up a lot of weird problems and pecadillos and smirks and says, "So it goes."
So it goes. I don't much care one way or the other and since Syz pretty much ignores me (I sense that I speak in a paradigm with which he is unfamiliar or perhaps feels is "low-brow". I dunno. That's conjecture and remember, I don't much care).
It's too bad he went gun shy on us, 'cause it was showing some promise before. I was sittin' back and thinkin'. I was learnin'. All was cool.
Just a reminder to remember that a lot of us are here for play not work and not a post graduate lit course. We're just here funnin' on topics ostensibly related to one of our favorite writers, Harlan Ellison. Have FUN, folks!
ALL: A review of SLIPPAGE by Donn Jehs can be found at:
http://www.bookwire.com/TBR/Lead-reviews/read.Review$5410
I get a kick out of people when they come in here, antagonize, then placate, then a harmless comment drives them away forever (supposedly). I hardly think that anything Barney said drove ol' Syz. away. I think Syz. was looking for an excuse to leave. Why the big proclamation (I'm outta here)?? Just never post again, or lurk and shurrup. This is happening almost daily on alt.ellison, with all the flamers driving some folks away. My once a year quick rant. Charlie
I think I've realized the source of my naivete. I haven't actually responded to anything Syz has said for quite some time. Maybe my lack of real exposure to his words led me to draw incorrect conclusions. Maybe that attack on him earlier also left me a bit defensive. Who knows. I'll defend anyone who is attacked without apparent provocation (as when that duke dorkus maximus descended on him) I need to learn to curb these blindly altruistic tendancies.
---Peter
Oh well. I had thought that he was trying. Maybe I was wrong. I realized that he hadn't changed his ways completely, but I did see an effort toward civility. As I said, oh well. Who'd of thought? Me being optimistic about someone's character. That's funny. Maybe it just goes to show how much I've actually been paying attention to the posts as of late. I'm usually the person who is quickest to decry the human condition. As I said. Oh well.
...Speaking of lost souls, it's been a while since we've seen Nicole on this board... hmmmm.
---Peter
OK - been thinking about it, in my non-ivory-tower channeled acedemia-speak way, which so clearly indicates a total lack of native intelligence (and therefor merits no respect for the person, or for ideas expressed) - and I gotta say Barney is right.. Syz, makes it no fun. His personal opinions are consistanly expressed as judgements made about the "worth" of PEOPLE he adresses and/or discusses - justified in acedemic techno-speak as warranted and irrefutable absolute truth - a single example of less than perfect literary output "proves" the AUTHOR of what he didn't personally care for is without merit, and therefore incapable of doing anything meritorious in a literary way (though the reverse is never true, if he likes the Author - then there no end of excuses for them).
That's what no one likes - Syz is a cultural bigot. Haven't seen a single post of his yet, where that bigotry did not ooze out between the words, and singe the hairs of my nose.. I have read a novella's worth of posts judging a library's worth of authors as PEOPLE, based on Syz's personal reaction to something they wrote, or did - and the consistant attitude that the ONLY reason for disagreement with his pronouncements is a lack of inteligence, culture, or education (or all of the above - as in my case) inferring incompetance and inability to comprehend any truth (using whatever he thinks is the truth as the only truth, and the standard) - and the occasional kudo's handed out for attaining the wherewithall to elevate oneself to that exalted level of personal perfection required to perceive and affirm one of his pre-established 'truth's' (even if it is only a momentary achievement).
The expectation that being open-minded means you must accept anything said or done without flinching or negative response is a false interpretation. Being open-minded merely means with-holding a response until the message being communicated is clear, and has been assessed in the correct context.
Peter, I haven't seen any change in that bigotry at all. The only concession Syz made was to replace the personal attacks on people "unworthy" to post on the same board he does with a pointed ignoring of anything they said, and flushing any discussion among them unrelated to his "area of expertise" down the cyber-toilet with a flood of posts to re-direct the board into topics where he can hold court. I suppose that could be construed as "cleaning up his act".. On the receiving end it feels more like judged, found worthless, and punished by being 'dismissed', and shoved off the board. "Making room for Syzygy" does not mean I in any way agree with his bigotry - it merely means I accept the reality of bigotry and my inabilty to change bigotry in others, and the 'engaging' of those afflicted with bigotry in a B-Mod sort of way..
You don't have to agree with my assessment of "why" to see that this board has changed from a "people-friendly" fun place to post, alive with inter-acting, distinct, and unique perspectives, into a battleground for ego and expertise since the advent of Syzygy. It really isn't fun any more, just an assault on self-esteem by innuendo, that doesn't "prove" anything except who has the thickest skin, the biggest ego, the best reference library.. I don't see where any of what has gone on rececntly contributes to communication, or to art in general in any of it's manifestations. In fact, I see it as killing the senstitivity required for gaining new insights (critical factor in any art) - in essence killing what made this board special in the first place.
But what the heck - wadda I know - I'm just an biker without portfolio - who reads - and buys books - and tells friends to buy books - whose ultimate revenge is that the books people like me buy and keep and pass on will BE the time-tested classics of the future..
Sorry for the long post
BARNEY *HUG* :-)
***Peter*** DTS is reading me exactly right. Kicking Vonnegut, now that he has one foot in the grave, for not being as bright as say, Douglas Hofstadter is, to my stunted knee jerk way of thinking, about as useful as saying Sue shouldn't participate because I can bench press more than her. Maybe. Vonnegut is an old PR -marketing flack with a background in Journalism. I'd say he ran the literary mile pretty fast with those handicaps.
And kicking Gardner was indeed low. Just like singling out one of Harlan's earlier works and immortalizing [for academia] the thing like a retarded bug stuck in amber was a bit harsh. Like Gardner cares at this point.
Bikers - Why some of my best friends and deadest relatives are bikers. Hi Sue. [nudge nudge wink wink].
Regarding "Cras amet qui numquam amavit quique amavit cras amet". At first I thought it was redundent but after reparsing [?] it, realized it was quite poetic. And good advice, as long as the implication isn't that it would be beyond my capacity. 'Cause, like, it's not, OK dude? For my part, I will respond in an equally dead language, 80's dancespeak -
"Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight."
Don't worry folks. We'll sort this out in Mark Twains heaven, where everybody will be hugging and hugging and hugging and hugging...
I feel like I'm wandering through the ruins of a bombed out building, searching for the spark that lit the fuse. I may be out of it, or not reading too carefully, but I had thought that Syzygy had made a real effort to clean up his act. Sure he got a little high minded sometimes, but he honestly seemed to be trying. I don't know. there is just something about this whole incident that doesn't sit well with me. I just can't place my finger on it.
On a happier note. My college is (hopefully) going to start an MFA program in creative writing. I've heard a rather interesting rumor (from my writing professor who is apparently one of the instigators of this venture) that Ursula K. Le Guin is one of the writers that they've gotten to teach in the new program. I'm gonna have to get my act together writing-wise if I'm to even consider getting into that class.
---Peter
Well GEEZ!! Darned if I know what the heck is going on.. I thought Syzygy *liked* those tasteless dives into flame-wars - he seemed to relish them so.. Then I thought, if Syz was gonna bail, it would be when we did our semi-pro verbal mud-wrestling tournament, and he's still here - so I made room for him.. So NOW he boogies off to parts unknown.. Go figure.. *shrug*
DTS - no offense taken by your remarks. :-) We get the willies every time we see a biker without full protective gear..
BILL: maybe Barney hit a nerve with that remark about Gardner. I get the feeling, from his posts in which he often mentions the guy, that Namirran holds John Gardner (in particular) in high esteem where writers are concerned. (I could be completely wrong, but that was just my first impression after reading the exchange and Namirran's unexpected departure -- after all, as you pointed out, worst things have been said by Namirran AND others). As for myself, I thought the remark about Gardner was kinda funny. Having ridden a motorcycle for a few years when younger (and having often been stupid enough to remove my helmet riding home at night to feel the Gulf coast winds flowing through my hair) and having been lucky enough to be wearing my helmet when fate knocked on my door (I was told my bike and I traveled 254 feet -- damn near made a touchdown), I find it hard to feel sympathy for those who purposely ride a bike without protective gear (it's bad enough that the things offer no protection from vehichles weighing several tons, a person shouldn't ignore the few protective articles available. Gardner was in his forties when he had his accident, sans helmet. No excuse. It reminds me of something the wife tells her husband in "Entropy's Bed At Midnight" (a Simmons novella, available in LOVEDEATH), regarding motorcyles. She says she approves of them because it helps weed out the feebs from the gene pool (Ha!). (By the way, Sue, this is NOT a dig at you and your husband) That's all the news...Out here, DTS.
SYZYGY: On the chance that you sneak a peek back here to check for any post-mortem responses re: your unforeseen early departure: man, like, "I just don't get it, Dude." You must know the tone of your posts can tend toward the acerbic. That's fine. Just be prepared for someone to rub the sandpaper back a bit now and then, maybe even at a coarser grit--or come at you with a belt sander occasionally. But, geesh, Barney's response was mind--and I know you have a hide thicker than a mu shu wrapper to take it. So, you know, like a few others here, I'm not sure what happened. But, of course, this comes from folks with the individual IQs of carrot slices, so maybe we missed something. -- Billy D.
Peter: I have no clue.
I'm going to leave the sorting-out to other, cooler heads, but I do believe that several people acted under the same bitter impulses that produced my "everyone's-just-cattle-anyway" post of last night. Although Syzyzy's departure definitely needs to be discussed, I have too much momentum right now with my pet irritation to talk about anything else.
Okay, y'all may have already known this. But do you know who's getting the lifetime achievement award at the Oscars this year? Elia-fuckin'-Kazan! That's right, the fink! Is anybody else pissed? Pissed enough to help me charter a bus and cruise several thousand miles in order to picket the damn ceremony?
Okay... what just happened?
---Peter
Barney: Oy vey!! Just when I thought I had garnered a welcome seat in the sandbox you had to go and kick sand in my eyes. In the immortal words of every pre-teen American suffering from 'parental domination', I give to you the only phrase that comes to mind, the only phrase suitable enough to meet your insistent nettling: whatevuh dude!! :)
Finder, Peter, DTS, Peg, Rick, Sue, Wylie, Alejandro, Bill and all the rest: It was fun. I learned a lot. However, because I can't deny the fact that my presence is still a continued 'pain' (for some people, anyway), and because I realise that my standing is unredeemable, I've chosen to depart this mortal coil (well, as mortal a coil as hypertext can be) for other caverns to haunt. There's no hard feelings--it's just a drag to be the creature of past hatreds. So, in the interest of all, I'm 'outta here'. Maybe our paths will cross again someday. Who knows? Maybe sooner than later. Until then, however, this is Syzygy Namirran signing off. Good luck, good life, and take care . . . everyone. :)
Gosh, your right. Vonnegut's no bright boy like Gaddis or Pynchon. He probably couldn't lift the pencil cases of either David Foster Wallace or Daniel C. Dennett. We should just take him to a vacant lot and put him out of his misery.
On the other hand, if John Gardner was so smart, how come he got on that motorcycle? Hmmm? I'll just go back to wasting space and sucking up precious oxygen now...
Oh, and just for the record: I think Vonnegut is about as insightful as a spelling-Bee held for super models.
He might be interesting to watch, and everything he says might be slightly amusing (even entertaining), but give him a complex subject to talk about and his words become a maundering drivel of mocking satire, just as stimulating and smoothly contrived as the blank voice of Cindy Crawford. A jerking apparatus of head tilts, smiles and batting eye-lids.
Barney: If you choose to interpret a single-sentence, paranthetical aside as the definitive voicing of an assertion or an "effort to become the 600 pound gorilla in the corner sitting on all the good books [in which] you somehow manage to SUCK ALL THE FUN out of the room!!!!", then far be it from me to try and dissuade you. As much as you'd like to charge me with careless name-dropping (or word vomiting), you might want to take stock of the fact that Song of Kali is, in fact, a 'perfect fit' for the Fichtean drama curve. I merely thought that those who were studying creative writing might like to know that. I'm sorry if that offended you and sparked your personal obligation to stomp on me.
In the future, I'll simply refrain from clarifying my opinions. After all, if I'm just going to be ridiculed for it, what's the point, right?
"Cras amet qui numquam amavit quique amavit cras amet"
***DTS*** or he could just read "Phases Of Gravity". No sequel/prequel/diptych/tryptich/lindatriptych thingee going on there.
***Syzygy*** Vonnegut used to do a marvelous deconstruction of Fichtean literary curve theory [and some others] by proving that Shakespeare couldn't plot and had no literary merit. Of course, some Irish writers might agree but that's not the point.
Proving Shakespeare talentless with a grease pencil graph and a overhead projector is some funny shit, man. I think the reason some of us winced at the term is because, in your effort to become the 600 pound gorilla in the corner sitting on all the good books you somehow manage to SUCK ALL THE FUN out of the room!!!! [channelling Kinnison again]. When I think of all the stuff I enjoy that would not withstand the harsh withering light of post-modern/[panic theory also] lit crit it just depresses me. Pining away for Vidal and Mailer in PA...
KEEGAN: Have you heard the music/singing of an an artist called Anggun, and (if so) what do you think? I caught her on a late-night music program (on some cable channel) and thought she was so good I bought her CD -- "Snow on the Sahara." Anyway, just interested in your opinion since you are well-versed in music and singing (pun intended). Out here, DTS.
All- HE writes the preface to a SF anthology called "Dreaming Down Under", however, as the title suggests, it's only out in Australia. Try those import dealers for a copy. Charlie
ALEX: I feel the same way about sequels and such. Hate to pick up a book and find I needed more information from the one published prior to it. Which is why you are WRONG about Simmons' novels. You can read HYPERION and THE FALL OF HYPERION seperately if you choose, and still enjoy them (there is enough "back story" in the latter to clear things up). (Actually, the two were supposed to be one long novel, THE HYPERION CANTOS, but publishers were afraid no one would buy it, so Simmons had to break it in half). And his following novels in the same "universe," ENDYMION and THE RISE OF ENDYMION (once again, two books that are essentially one novel), are set three hundred plus years after the others and deal with entirely different characters (with "cameos" by two from the "Hyperion" books, but that doesn't necessitate the reading of those novels). And Simmons even wrote one last novella set in that "universe," "Orphans of the Helix," which also takes place hundreds of years after the events in all the novels -- after all the main characters in each of the books is dead). If you like SF, Alex, you're doing yourself a disservice by NOT reading Simmons stuff. From the "Rosetta Stone" structure of HYPERION (which makes the perfect primer for anyone just introducing him or herself to SF -- it's structured along the lines of THE CANTERBURY TALES) and the meta-fictional touches therein, to the action-packed pacing in THE FALL OF HYPERION and ENDYMION, and the tragi-comedy story structure of THE RISE OF ENDYMION. Not to mention all of the various subtexts and themes running through the novel (the poems of John Keats, mankinds inhumanity to man, our hubris in defiling nature and other cultures for the sake of progress, the inherently evil nature of politics and how it corrupts religious organizations as well as societal, technology VS. humanity, the necessity of radical evolution, religious beliefs and their importance -- or lack thereof -- in human society, the poetry of T.S. Eliot, and dozens of other things I'm not mentioning). Reading those novels has been one of my richest experiences in all the SF reading I've ever done between the ages of 8 and 38. As for Simmons' other books -- there are no sequels involved! (the "Elm Haven Triptych" he wrote involves separate novels with characters that all came from the same small town, and who knew each other as children). All I can say is that if you continue to avoid Simmons for all the wrong reasons in your post, it's your own loss. Cause you're missing out on some of the best writing and story-telling to be had in the latter half of our dying century. Out here, DTS.
As for Simmons, I hate to say this, but even taking into account how much I respect him for his short stories, I've never read any of the man's novels.
Why is that?
Because I hate, hate, HATE sequels. The only sequels I can think of that I've read are the Hitchhiker's Guide books, McCaffrey's Pern saga--and the Big SF sequels--Foundation and Clarke's Sentinel, 2001, 2010, and 2061 (no, I've not read the latest in that numeric scale).
Now, _series_--and interconnected books--are an entirely different manner. Heinlein's Lazarus Long books, Robinson's Callahan's Place series, Leiber's Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser--and his Big Time novel and the related storiesKinky Friedman's autobiographical mysteries--Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus books, John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee, Laumer's Retief, Gregory McDonald's Fletch and Flynn, Westlake's Dortmunder, Block's Scudder and Bernie Rhodenbarr tales, all of Asimov's Robot stories and novels, Martin Cruz Smith's Arkady Renko books, Joe Gores' DKA mysteries, Philip Roth's introspective Zimmerman novels, Walter Moseley's Easy Rawlins mysteries, Hammett's Continental Op, Thin Man, and Sam Spade books, Updike's Rabbit, Chandler's Marlowe noirfests, and tens of other series I follow.
I don't want to get into a book to find that I should have read all twelve books preceding it to feel I truly know what's going on. It's for this reason I decline to read certain books by writers as good as Zelazny, Moorcock, Simmons, Tolkien, Gerrold, Lawrence Watt-Evans, and others, simply because I see them as having been struck by sequelitis. The books may be great, yes--but I won't read them until I have all the books in hand.
Two odd things, though--I like Harlan's Kyben tales, and they'd seem to fit my predjudices for interconnected tales, but I donb't warm toi them as much as I do to what I consider his "real" work. Also, I'm a comic book aficionado--and a monthly series would seem the acme of sequelitis. I dunno; I just reads 'em.
I know sequels are the way to go, financially speaking, but I just can't buy into that.
My book won't have a sequel.
Still, it's nice to see writers who DO write sequels making them stand-alone projects, as my newsgroup and e-mail friend W. T. Quick did. Bill really made his trilogy, Dreams of Gods and Men, Dreams of Flesh and Sand, and Singularities books that could stand on their own.
So. Having rambled on in TWO messages, let me now stop to ask: Anyone feel the same way (or the opposit) as I?
CHARLIE: Well, the papervack copy I have here (Berkeley, 1980) says nothing about the movie, but I also have seen a copy at a used bookstore (copyright '82, I think), which trumpets in bold type over the top, "Now a Costa-Gavras film!" Knowing that the film would have been shot from Harlan's script, and knowing how good Costa-Gavras was at directing political films, you can begin to get an idea how upset I am by this. Say, does anyone happen to know who was being kicked around in preproduction for the lead role? It'd be interesting.
To my mind, there are only two screenwriters who could ever have done this work justice--one is, of course, Harlan; the other, sadly, is no longer with us--Paddy Chayefsky.
PASSIM: I just realized--I never would have picked up Spinrad's work (I now have about five or six of his books) were it not for Harlan and the fact that he wrote the screenplay for Bug Jack Barron. I'm thinking of all the writers I was hipped to by other writers--Spinrad, Wilhelm, Borges, Mario Vargas Llosa, Kersh, and a few others by Harlan, Dan Simmons, not by HE, but by Stephen King. More on Simmons later. John D. MacDonald and Alfred Bester by Spider Robinson (who also got me into Lord Buckley), Joe Gores by Dashiell Hammett (or rather, I saw the movie of _Hammett_ and had to read the book, which led to his others), Donald E. Westlake by Lawrence Block--and I better stop now before I fill the board. In the interests of readability, I'll continue my thoughts on Simmons later.
Oh, dear. I guess that roundfiles the Idea *I* had. But, in case you're curious, feel free send me an e-mail to the above e-mail address, putting in the subject header "ATTN: shameless commerce department" and I will let you know this demented pot of stew has in mind. Until next time. . .
Umm - when was that Golden Era of exquisite literary refinement among the majority of the human race?? I missed it... If the majority of our species can even read, that is a new development. So what exactly are we bemoaning the loss of? There has always been a plethora of 'great' works - that faded with the small groups who proclaimed them 'great'... It has always been the majority of a minority who preserved literary works long enough to become time-tested Classic Literature (and sometimes, just plain dumb luck they were found by archeologists). Lets stop with the "Audience-Bashing".. And be thankful for all those illiterates of the past, whose search for entertainment preserved the "Classics" of theater, dance, music, sculpture, painting, architecture, oral history (much of which is poetry), and all those other things that didn't require literacy to "get into".. Geez, guys - *YOU* are that great faceless, nameless, "mass of consumers" for the creators of most of the art forms you indulge.. Lighten up, before you hurt yourselves.
You know, the suggestions so far on how to promote deserving authors have been hoots, (personally, I'm all for a nationwide coup and putting a different author in charge of the country every week -- read his/her books or be charged as a traitor) but the problem with any method a crowd with this much brain power comes up with is that it'll work.
Yeah, you heard me. We could probably come up with even a reasonable and practical way to do it. (The gladiators are nifty, though.) But I really don't see a way to do it that wouldn't involve fighting on the terms of the people we want to bring this stuff to -- people who are happy sticking with Danielle Steele and her ilk. These would, necessarily, be attempts aimed at sensationalism and "cool" value, as opposed to any campaign carried on at an intellectual level.
Even if we won, if we got Neil Gaiman and Ursula K. Le Guin in the hands of the majority of the US population, it would have been through the wrong methods, even if it was for the right reasons. We would be encouraging the current shallow nature of the majority by giving them an extra-special treat at the end of the Pavlovian trail we set for them. This I find abhorrent. If they want it, let 'em find it.
Rick- Read in Locus that HE sued Ackerman for sending harassing faxes. What's the scoop? Has he stopped?
where can i get harlan on video?
is he on tv any more?
Jim - Two words: "Literary Gladiators". Two writers, quarterstaffs, broadswords, shields, maybe a little speed-typing for good measure. Winner gets to read a passage from their work and a thirty-second television spot with a toll-free number to peddle their wares from (no COD's, please) while the loser has to read from Danielle Steele and gets their work deconstructed by over-eager lit majors. Three wins gets you a prime guest spot on Rosie O'Donnell to talk about your craft. If that can't raise the public's love of the written word, well, I'm stymied...Syzygy - Comment was meant as gentle sarcasm and nothing more. I'm in a mood - or is it a mode? Finder a la mode? Alrighty, then...Charlie - Good book. I've never seen HE's screenplay adaptation, even on the secondary market (where I once saw a photocopy of his typewritten manuscript for "I, Robot", leaked from the studio I presume), but I imagine it's an interesting read, and would be almost topical again, given the current preoccupation with talk shows these days...Peter - Your imagery gets downright creepy around midterms and finals; this isn't a criticisim - rather, there's something horrifyingly effective about the notion of writers with their contracts carved into their hands so the terms of their enslavement will always be evident. Interesting jumping off point for a piece of spec lit, if you ask me...Oy, look at the clock on the wall - time for bed...Finder
While I'm a little more sane... (that midterm was horrrrrrible, with rolled r's)
There isn't any way to push a writer worth his weight in coal onto the populous without relinquishing control of him/her to the marketing daemons who run the media. People today won't read a book unless it has been blessed by those daemons in a satanic ritual of goats blood and oreo cookies.
Writing is the last remnant of pre-industrial society, the cottage industry. (I have this horrible image in my head of fiction writers sitting in cubicles at a large publishing house working on the latest in corporately sanctioned literature.) Who in their right mind is going to spend four to twelve hours reading a book when they can rent a video and watch it in an hour and a half? (I'm obviously not in my right mind, but I'm trying to show how society seems to want to operate)
But seeing as how most readers of fiction aren't in their right mind, the only way to get people to read a specific writer is word of mouth. Kind of like what we did here. Everyone has learned of at least five new writers on this board. People they've never heard of. People they never would have considered reading. People whose books they would probably pass over at their local Barnes and Nobles while they scouted for the latest Anne Rice. (I have nothing against Anne Rice, I'm just using her as an example of a popular writer) And if you work in a book store? Better still. Recommend writers to people. Someone buys a collection of Raymond Carver short stories, then recommend Hemingway. If someone picks up the latest Clive Barker, recommend Simmons. If someone picks up the Lewinsky book. Shoot that person on sight and throw the book in the recycle bin. Honestly, advertisement for most writers has to be a grass roots movement, instigated by the fans, an perpetuated by the acceptance of a writer's work as good. Otherwise the daemons will be waiting to smear twinkie filling all over the writer's body before carving a contract for the writer's soul on the back of his hand so that he knows what he owes whenever he sits down to write.
---Peter
We have wandered far from my original point,which was this:How to get more coverage, more play, more push for writers (not 'authors' like the wretched sort who cobbled up the nonsense Monica dear is quick to take credit for). Short of dressing the likes of Harlan Ellison up like Barney the Dinosaur or 'discovering' he was, in a previous life, a space alien of some manner, I'll be &$%#! to the People's Republic of Boulder and back when it comes to ideas on how to do this. So I am open to any suggestions, thoughts, opinions, whatever. Maybe a lottery? Buy ten thousand copies of Harlan's Ellison latest literary volcano and get to watch him attempt to eat Malt-O-Meal with tomato juice while listening to John Tesch? Maybe something like: Buy Harlan's latest and get to join in the fun as he flogs Regis and Kathie Lee with a rolled up copy of People magazine? As perverse as that may sound to the blue-haired, blue-noses it might just work. But. . .it's just a thought.
Until next time. . .
My find at this weekend's book show was a 1st edition of Spinrad's "Bug Jack Barron" w/dj in fine condition for $30. Yeah, I was smiling. I remember reading that HE did a screenplay based on the book. Was the screenplay ever released? Charlie
Finder: Well said. The fact that Monica Lewinsky can sell more copies of her illiterate trash tale than any number of well-written books---in one day, most likely---is enough to make one want to slash their wrists the long way. Well, those who 'know better' anyway. It's an annoyance and a hallmark significant enough to make one believe that we truly are living out the future history of a 'new dark ages'.
Sorry for the technical terminology. I certainly didn't mean to sound boorishly pedantic. I thought that it might clarify what I was saying, at least for those familiar with the notion of plot profluence. If I used it in an inappropriate context, let me know. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or abrasive. (I thought that the Fichtean--as opposed to the Aristotalian--ideology about drama was a commonplace with students of creative writing. Writers such as Alexander Pirov, John Gardner and Harriet Bouren often use this same ideology in their instruction.) Oh well . . .
Jim - There is media coverage - unfortunately, it's either in the slick pop-culture press (a USA Today or Entertainment Weekly), which doesn't normally stray far from the popular mainstream, or specialized press, such as the book section of any one of a number of Sunday papers or periodicals aimed specifically at the book-buying public. I'm firmly convinced that most people who read the Washington Post don't even bother with the Sunday Book Review section, given the crap that's selling. (Ironically, reading that section is how I got to meet HE the first time, but that's another story for another snowy day.) Steve's point is very valid: the vast majority of occasional readers are clueless. I think it's compounded by the entire system: publishers who throw gobs of money at a Grisham or a Clancy, and then throw more behind promoting their work in every medium, while leaving fifty other authors twisting in the wind (if not for Webderland, I doubt I'd know when new Ellison was imminent); bookstore chains that, in turn, push the latest "blockbuster" but let lesser-known quality authors languish (for which I think Steven makes a very good point: any visibility outside the norm elevates the book above every other thing on the shelf...that's how I found W.P. Kinsella; people are more likely to read something recommended to them, by friend or by a bookstore staff, than to buy it cold); and the readers, many of whom are loathe to expand their horizons beyond the two or three people they read regularly. How can the system be fixed? I don't know that it can. As a society, we're no longer braced and paced for reading - it's all go go go, flash and glitz and Andy Warhol's fifteen minutes. I read because I was encouraged to at an early age (it's said I cried when I came home from my first day of pre-school and they hadn't taught me how to read big-kids books - I'm treating this as apocryphal, as I don't remember); but I wonder how many parents these days are reading to their kids, or encouraging them to shut of the Nintendo in favor of Mark Twain and Jules Verne. Have we come to the point where celebrity endorsement will make or break an author's financial success? Do they need to find an Oprah or a Don Imus to give them a presence in the media? Or corporate sponsorship? I shudder at the thought - 'Harlan Ellison...brought to you by Kelloggs'... I think it probably comes down to what the author wants out of his or her writing - be it the tenuous nature of their name on the bestseller list and a seven-figure advance, or to find a cadre of attentive readers and publish with whoever is going to give the work the best treatment. As for us readers? I guess we just have to keep recommending what's worthwhile, subverting friends and family whenever possible. I'm not above passing along my copy of something (within reason) for someone else to discover it. Syzygy - the Fichtean dramatic curve? Oh, sure, throw in technical terms.
Chris: As far as 'atmospherics' is concerned, nothing (in my opinion) matches up to T.E.D. Klein's 'The Ceremonies' and the short story collection, 'Dark Gods'. Also, anything written by Thomas Ligotti--specifically Grimscribe, Songs of a Dead Dreamer and Noctuary--is fraught with an atmospheric 'sense of place' and an ambiant, almost palpable feeling of moving through the course of a wayward dream. Of course, both of these fine writers are paying homage to people like Lovecraft, Leiber, Derleth and Machen . . . Straub is a remarkable descriptive writer, and shows an immense talent with refining imagery (as in "A Short Guide to the City", a story which is quinessentially 'atmospheric'. I also like the Gabrial Garcia Marquez "tie-in", whether intentional or not. "A Very Old Man With Enormous Wings" is a Garcia Marquez classic . . . and, also, superbly 'atmospheric'.)
Song of Kali is much more than a punch-line purveying plot device; it is also much more than a traditional atmospheric tale of the macabre. In my opinion, to label it with either of these descriptions is to simplify it for the sake of argument.
The most striking thing about Song of Kali, to me, is the literary 'balance' that it displays. Granted, there are a few empty spaces in the plot, and some of the characters can seem contrived at times. But, when looked at critically, one has to appreciate the delicate flourishes that Simmons creates in evoking the secret world of Calcutta. Simmons writes with a competancy and lyrical simplicity that is uncommon in the 'horror field'. Not only are we witness to the bewilderment (and vengeful rage) of the protagonist, we are also witness to the injustices of an environment who's government is a failure, a place where people die by the hundreds each night in the muck and squalor of poverty. As remarked, the 'build up' of the book is similar in kind to that of a short story (if we are to follow the Fichtean dramatic curve). But one has to keep in mind that the book is also extremely short, a novellette really. (To compare it to Ghost Story, an expansive, discursive narrative incorporating many sub-plots, is a bit unfair in my opinion. Also, the 'build up' in Ghost Story is, to me, decidedly conventional, almost overt in its familiarity.)
As previously mentioned, Song of Kali is a book about terror(s): terror of the so-called modern world, terror of death in anonymity, terror of an environment without recognizable law or safety nets. In addition to the terror it evokes, Song of Kali also incites a sense of astonishment in the reader---the astonishment felt at the possibility of such things being true.
Anyone who knows the literary history regarding Song of Kali will tell you that 'most' (if not all) of the harrowing detail written about Calcutta is 'true', and accounts for the reason why Dan Simmons has been publicly reprimanded by its citizenry, admonished by its government officials, and threatened with litigation by the leaders of that notorious city. It also account for why, in numerous interviews, he states that he will never write about India again. For me, that is much more sinister than (the imagined) mythos of mutilated cows or vignettes shared between aging septogenarians reviewing a troubled past. Maybe it's just me. I don't know.
DOH! I meant DTS! But my brain saw the first person he was talking to... Can everyone say "studying for midterm in circuit analysis which happens to be scheduled for seven AM on a monday morning?" Sorry about the mixup, but I think my brain is seriously fried (wait until after the midterm though) Heck, even typing this is an ordeal.
--- Peetr... I mean petre... Or is it Peret? Aww, nevermind.
*** Peter *** I wasn't the one reading Dante. Being neither a christian nor a numerologist my opinion on the subject would be somewhat lacking in critical insight. Now "Infante's Inferno" I can endorse. Today I hope to knock off G.B. Shaw's "The Perfect Wagnerite" and "A Cool Million" by Nathanael West.
***Rick*** I have to confess, my showtime connection went out drinking without setting his VCR timer [can you say carbomb, Kenny?] and the Psi-Factor either didn't air around here or wasn't listed in my Channel Choices so this week I am shamefacedly Ellison Lite. If anybody can hook me up I'll give them some Snyder or Sci-Fi buzz or something. I did like the story in Partners in Wonder and really enjoyed the Dove audio version but as I recall I was water-sealing a basement with an industrial version of Lok-tite and the fumes would have made "Princess Daisy" sound profound [poet don't know it]. I did think the text piece by A.E. Van Vogt was either one of the funniest or one of the scariest pieces I have ever read. Some people, it's better if we don't know what they really think. Gotta go shovel.
Barney::: is that translation of Dante any good? I keep getting these dry, torturous, academic translations fobbed off on me, so I never give Dante the attention his work deserves. The imagery is wonderful, but it loses its power when the translation is bad.
---Peter
keegan - Woody Allen wrote some great short humor early in his career. Read 'Side Effects' and 'Without Feathers' for more, including some literate homages to Raymond Chandler, and the oft-anthologized 'Kugelmass Episode'. BTW, the Amazing Grace / Gilligan connection cracked me up!
Mitch
BARNEY: I understand your chagrin (I've done the "spoiler" thing myself, once). Glad to hear that you enjoyed KALI as much as I. RICK: Forgot to tape Outer Limits (damnit), so I'll have to catch the rerun. CHRIS: I still think you should try CARRION COMFORT or SUMMER OF NIGHT. (currently reading DANTE'S INFERNO -- RObert Pinsky translation-- CRYPTOMNOMICON, THE 100 BEST AMERICAN SHORT STORIES OF THE CENTURY, MR. X by PEter STraub, THE GIRL WHO LOVED TOM GORDON and THE GIRL'S GUIDE TO HUNTING AND FISHING... Oh, yeah, and SHELL GAME). Recently read and highly recommended: THE CROOK FACTORY by Dan Simmons, LIBERTY FALLING by Nevada Barr, HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE, and BEAST OF THE HEARTLAND by Lucius Shepard (just reread that last, another nearly perfect collection of stories by one of the best short story craftsman in America -- his other collections, for those who are interested, are THE JAGUAR HUNTER and THE ENDS OF THE EARTH...his novels and British publications are probably available through Bibliofind or somesuch). Out here, DTS.
Unfortunately, as evidenced by my previous post, I read the story after I saw the show. My first impression is that the story is much better. Some of the changes to the show I liked. I liked how some of the exposition was transplaneted into dialog. I thought that it made a good translation. (actually some of the dialog was directly taken from bits of the narrator's exposition.) I didn't think the nudity was completely necessary (hey, I have absolutely nothing against seeing a little naked female flesh, its just that I thought it could have been done a little more tastefully. Only, the network has a reputation for being SHOWtime.) and the ending seemed to lose a little of the wonder that the story had and was way too wordy. Also, the use of the scrap of magazine was way too obvious and dumbed the story down considerably. There were several other ways, including what is actually in the story, to have done that. On the whole I'd say it is a fairly loyal adaptation where not all of the changes work. At least for me. The effects were nice, the acting was halfway decent (McDowell was good, but he's done better), and the ending left a saccharine taste in my mouth.
---Peter(a brief impression. For my next impression...)
Hey gang - just got off the horn with Harlan (if you read the alt.fan newsgroup you'll learn this was probably so I could "brag to him about defending him" or some rot) and he was interested in feedback on THE HUMAN OPERATORS episode of Outer Limits on SHOWTIME this weekend. I'm posting on the newsgroup, but figured I might get a better (and more enlightened) response here. What did you guys think? Was the adaptation good? Was it true to the original story?
Also, if anyone keeps trying to fax HE and is having problems, please e-mail me -- his fax machine has been going nuts lately and he'd much rather just talk to whoever needs to contact him.
***DTS*** Moby Dick has a crazy guy trying to catch a whale? Now that I know what it's about, I'll never read it! Removing tongue from cheek - sorry about the spoiler. I got stuck on countering Chris without mentioning that little plot point and I'm afraid I took the easy way out. I am wrapping my virtual knuckles with a virtual ruler even as I type.
The other horrifying aspect of that book [to me] is that I seem to recall the finale was not an original idea of Simmons, but rather, something that had actually been done in real life.
And while Simmons gives it up for Poppy Z. Brite I think he's still got her beat. But she's young.
[currently reading "Shadows" by Osvaldo Soriano and "The Fratricides" by Nikos Kazantzakis]
Thanks for an interesting discussion. It's nice to be able to talk to folks with similar reading interests.
I guess the difference in Song of Kali is whether you found the description of Calcutta compelling or not. I didn't. I don't think Simmons did much to make it come to life for me or to make it even the slightest bit disturbing.
As an atmospheric piece, I don't think it matches up with something like _Ghost Story_ to use my previous example.
It is possible the book would have more effect on me if I had a child but I don't think that's a central issue. To me, the book was a one-trick pony with a long setup for what was supposed to be a killer punchline. That can work in a short story but not in a novel, IMHO.
This was one HE recommendation I didn't dig. But later I read some effusive praise from HE regarding Stephen King's _The Green Mile_ and I agree completely. That's one of the most horrifying books I've ever read.
-chris
CHRIS: One last thing. Can't speak for the women, but as a man, I was even more "horrified" by the "dead baby" development AFTER I became a father (I read the book when I was single and childless, and after I was married and had a kid). I think that development is horrifying in and of itself, but having a child lends it even more emotional depth (for the reader). I know this is likely to be attacked as simplistic thinking, but, on the whole, I've found that people who aren't parents are less likely to be affected by events involving children (whether the events are fictional or not). (Of course, there is a whole groupl of the male gender out there who never quite grow out of the ME stage in thier lives, which are not affected by anything outside of their personal circles, but we'll exclude them when talking about those of us who fall into fairly normal parameters). Just wanted to add that thought. (You may fire when ready Grisley). Out here, DTS.
CHRIS: Having read SONG OF KALI and then perused your summation, I gotta say that you are the kind of reader who would sum up MOBY DICK as this book about a guy who's crazy and only wants to catch this big white whale. (If I'm hitting below the belt, it's because your encapsulation of Simmons' book was on par with something like that). SONG OF KALI is about the unending circle of violence which has gripped humankind since we first formed tribes and started agriculturual communities (for another, more plot driven take on that theme -- and half-a-dozen other themes -- check out CARRION COMFORT). And Simmons' ending, which refuses to bow to pro forma expectations, is absolutely perfect. Yes, there is a dead baby and smuggling involved (by the way, and this goes for others as well, it's definitely NOT a nice thing to throw out "spoilers" about book plots when dicussing them -- out of consideration for those who might not have read the book yet), and yes the plot is not horribly complicated. But it dosesn't have to be. Simmons evokes dread by painting an accurate picture of Calcutta, arguably one of the most disease-ridden and crime infested BIG cities in the third world. Calcutta, as evoked by Simmons, becomes another major character in the novel. I know when I visit the place I never shake many of the images he conjured up. And by conjuring those images, Simmons created a novel of sheer terror -- not horror. There IS a difference. Novels of terror and suspense go more for mood and psychological twists. Horror involves physical acts. Anyway, the point is that SONG OF KALI is not as simplistic as you describe it, leading me to believe that you are not its intended audience (a few of Simmons' books, like that one, and THE HOLLOW MAN, and PHASES OF GRAVITY) are not for audiences seeking mostly plot. Perhaps you would do better to pick up CARRION COMFORT which deals with modern-day violence (and I like the fictional explanation Simmons comes up with to explaine all the random violence in our society)plus "class wars" in society. It's the first Simmons novel that I read. After that, I was able to read SONG OF KALI and all the HYPERION/ENDYMION books with more appreciation for the subtexts and themes. Also, for more straight-forward, supernatural horror, check out SUMMER OF NIGHT (which, along with CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT -- a horror-thriller with a "medical" explanation for vampires -- and FIRES OF EDEN -- an historical/horror novel laced with comedy -- is part of Simmons' "Elmhaven triptych"). Then again, maybe Simmons just isn't your cup of tea. Out here, DTS.
Barney: Thanks for the response. I guess the answer is no, I don't find that horrifying, at least not in and of itself. I felt like Simmons was just so convinced that the basic idea he had was so darn scary, he didn't bother to do anything else with the book.
I mean, murder is a horrifying thing but if I watch a brainless slasher flick, the murders don't exactly pierce me to the core of my being. A movie like _Seven_ can give me nightmares. A movie like _Friday the 13th_ has no lasting impact on me.
I guess I didn't feel there was any buildup. The dead baby was the entire purpose of the book. Nothing else happened. It's just "Hey, we're in this city, geez it stinks here. Damn, they killed our baby. The End."
Compare that to something like Peter Straub's _Ghost Story_ where there is no single event nearly as nasty yet, IMHO, the book is vastly more terrifying due to the incredibley subtle, yet tense buildup.
Better yet, take what I consider possibly the most perfect work in the English language, _Jeffty Is Five_. That story has left a deep impact on me but it's not really because of what Jeffty's mom does at the end. Far more horrifying is the way they treat Jeffty and the way the world winds up destroying Jeffty before his mom simply finishes things off.
In other words, I felt that "dead baby" was the entire raison d'etre for Song of Kali. And, to me, that just doesn't make for a scary story.
-chris
***Chris*** If transporting contraband inside stolen dead babies isn't a little horrifying to you, well... I dunno. I did think "Carrion Comfort" was too long for it's ultimate effect but what the hell.
Wait a minute - hollowed out dead babies and the worst public health conditions in the world don't creep you out. Damn homey, you must see some scary shit. Don't bother with Shirley Jackson. Public stoning and multi-generational poisoning probably won't float your boat either.
What scares me? Regency romance readers and ceramic dinner bell collectors. Brrrrrrrrrrrrr.
"The first thing you notice about Hell is how many poodles there are." - Matt Groening
On an odd note-- I watched The Human Operators last night, never having read the story. So today, I go to a used book store that I hadn't been to in about four months, and I find a paperback edition of Partners in Wonder along with a paperback Dangerous Visions. Just one of those strange universal coincidences that make things interesting.
---Peter
I hope it's not sacrilege but I have to admit I just don't get Dan Simmons' popularity among the HE crowd. I had Song of Kali recommended to me so many times,including by HE himself in print, that I naturally read it. I finished it and just thought "Yeah, and...?" I cannot see any point to the book or what was supposed to be so horrifying about it. It was just, well, boring. What was so frightening about the book?
I've found myself generally not liking too much of what HE himself seems to recommend, esp in the world of films. If I ever meet him, I will have to exert every effort to not discuss film because he would undoubtedly thrash me royally.
And yet I consider HE the finest writer I have ever read. Strange.
Jim: As far as getting authors more coverage, it seems nigh impossible. Unless they want to sink to a certain level and have Oprah endorse their book (and I doubt Oprah would put her stamp on people like Harlan or Dan Simmons). I work at a chain bookstore, and it seems that whatever you really push at people will sell at least decently. My staff reccomendation last month was Angry Candy, and about six copies sold, compared to a total of one copy all of last year. If the publisher sets up a display for the writer, then they sell more books because people will buy it on impulse. Also, the front end racks in our store are rented by publishers. I'm not allowed to put whatever I want there, which leads me to believe that publishers pay to get certain books placed there. It all seems to boil down to advertising and visibility. Most people who come into the store don't even know the names of the books or authors that they want. "Do you have that Henry Smith and the Wizards?" "You mean, Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone?" "Yeah, that's it." They've heard about it in the paper, or on the radio, it's a big seller, everyone's reading it, Oprah blessed it, they gotta have it. At least half of the people looking for Oprah books think that she is the author, or they don't care enough to even know what book it is. They just need Oprah's new book, as if she wrote it and owns the rights to it. Sometimes I wonder what people would do if Oprah picked something like Greg Egan's Diaspora. I bet they'd swallow it and say they loved it, or have a stroke. Diaspora, by the way, was mind-blowing, fo those who have not yet discovered the most original SF novel I've ever read (I haven't read too widely). But back to the topic at hand; maybe being a big seller is not the most desirable thing for posterity. Certainly 95% of all the best-sellers are forgotten in no time at all. But then again, who wants to live hand-to-mouth all their life. There the rub.
Rick: Just popped in and saw your note about Hemingway. Um...have you been reading Dan Simmon's latest, THE CROOK FACTORY, which is about Hemingway? Curious. Given the history Harlan Ellison and Simmons have I wonder if this is how you came around to Hemingway's writing. Incidentally, speaking of Simmons I attended a reading and signing he did recently for the aforementioned book and I hafta say the turn-out for it was, well, to call it 'pathetic' was to have paid it an undue compliment. Given the small number who showed (which Simmons took quite well, I thought) everyone was allowed to ask all sorta questions of Simmons about his writing and life and his connections to Stephen King and, of course, Harlan Ellison and the conversation, what there was, came around to how to get writers (not 'authors') more coverage. I had a roaring argument going with a so-called objective mainstream journalist a few months back about the lack of coverage her newspaper gives to writers like Simmons and she replied with a snotty, blue-nosed reply: Well, we only report things that are newsworthy. John Elway picking his ass is, according to this twinkie, 'newsworthy'. Dan Simmons writing a book that is nothing less than ass-ripping scary isn't, apparently. Which brings me to a question and request for all those reading this: How do writers get a fair shake? How can they get the news media to cover their books? (And, with no offense intended, I exlcude King from this generalization because, as we all know, he can crap on two-ply TP and a hundred thousand lemmings will pay anything for it.) Folks, we are, as Harlan says so well, in the twilight of the written word. Fewer and fewer people are buying books, which means fewer and fewer legitimate writers can make a solid living from writing. How do we (as in the whole #@!% planet) get more people to read and buy books and support these wonderful and oh-so talented sorts like Dan Simmons and Harlan Ellison? Come on, the future needs the answer and I'm game to just about anything, given that the first whore, Monica (I'll-do-anything) Lewinsky, is on the bestsellers list and Harlan and Dan ain't. Rant mode off.
Until next time. . .
Jim
Rick: Just popped in and saw your note about Hemingway. Um...have you been reading Dan Simmon's latest, THE CROOK FACTORY, which is about Hemingway? Curious. Given the history Harlan Ellison and Simmons have I wonder if this is how you came around to Hemingway's writing. Incidentally, speaking of Simmons I attended a reading and signing he did recently for the aforementioned book and I hafta say the turn-out for it was, well, to call it 'pathetic' was to have paid it an undue compliment. Given the small number who showed (which Simmons took quite well, I thought) everyone was allowed to ask all sorta questions of Simmons about his writing and life and his connections to Stephen King and, of course, Harlan Ellison and the conversation, what there was, came around to how to get writers (not 'authors') more coverage. I had a roaring argument going with a so-called objective mainstream journalist a few months back about the lack of coverage her newspaper gives to writers like Simmons and she replied with a snotty, blue-nosed reply: Well, we only report things that are newsworthy. John Elway picking his ass is, according to this twinkie, 'newsworthy'. Dan Simmons writing a book that is nothing less than ass-ripping scary isn't, apparently. Which brings me to a question and request for all those reading this: How do writers get a fair shake? How can they get the news media to cover their books? (And, with no offense intended, I exlcude King from this generalization because, as we all know, he can crap on two-ply TP and a hundred thousand lemmings will pay anything for it.) Folks, we are, as Harlan says so well, in the twilight of the written word. Fewer and fewer people are buying books, which means fewer and fewer legitimate writers can make a solid living from writing. How do we (as in the whole #@!% planet) get more people to read and buy books and support these wonderful and oh-so talented sorts like Dan Simmons and Harlan Ellison? Come on, the future needs the answer and I'm game to just about anything, given that the first whore, Monica (I'll-do-anything) Lewinsky, is on the bestsellers list and Harlan and Dan ain't. Rant mode off.
Until next time. . .
Jim
Charlie: I was underwhelmed by the acting, the plot raised questions that were never dealt with, the division between aliens and humans was nebulous at best, and I'm still not sure if this is a dramatic version of true events or if this is a completely fictional creation.
Just a reminder, all, about the Human Operators on the Outer Limits @12:15 a.m., Sat. Morning, on the Showtime network.Also, I'm hitting a Book Show today at 5:30 p with dealers from around the world- anyone have any suggestions re: books I should check out? Not necessarily HE stuff (I think I have all his books in one form or another), but other spec. fic. authors. Charlie
*hums tune of Battle Hym of the Republic*
sings: Because I could not stop for Death, he kindly stopped for me...
get back to you guys - busy... hee hee
keegan: I laughed, but I got so busy trying to take your musical suggestion that I forgot to post my response. You killed nothing, we all just seem to be sitting back a little. Preparing my taxes is keeping me from sayin' much, maybe lots of us are up to our eyeballs in itemizing deductions . . .
Happy Trails. Wylie
Awww, man! Don't tell me I killed it! I was just jivin', honest.
Mitch:HAHAHA! What's that from? Great! Peter: Really wanna piss off some conservative Christians? Sing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "Gilligan's Island". Conversely, appropriate the traditional melody of "Amazing Grace" as a vehicle for the words of "Gilligan's Island". Either way, you'll get yer kix!
I got bored last night and looked up a Dickinson poem online. I don't remember which poem it was, but it seemed to fit remarkably well to the theme music from Gilligan's Island.
I'm now re-reading Candide by Voltaire and am going to start the Sound and the Fury by Faulkner soon after.
---Peter (humming the death march as I go to workshop my latest story)
"Dickinson had it wrong. Hope is not 'the thing with feathers'. The thing with feathers is my nephew. I must take him to a specialist in Zurich." - Woody Allen
Ohmigod! I just tried it with "Because I could not stop for Death he kindly stopped for me" and "I'm nobody! Who are you?". I had doubts it would work with the latter, but, by God, I made it fit and it worked!
I cannot do it to "Hope is the thing with feathers" though. Just can't do it. For some reason, that little snippet of English gets to me.
Finder: "Yellow Rose of Texas"??!!!! Yikes! I hadn't heard of that one. I dare not even audiate it let alone sing it lest it get stuck there.
No, my tune's original. I only sing it for myself though. Too chicken to put it in front of the public. Doesn't really fit in my normal bag.
You know, it's been a long time since I read Walt Whitman. I think I'll visit the local library soon. Feel the need to get back in touch. Thanks for whetting my appetite.
It ain't no myth. I've got a Dickinson collection on the 2nd floor in a case in the hall and for a couple of weeks after reading that I'd pull it down and open to a random page whenever I'd think of it and damned if they didn't ALL fit. She could've found gainful employment with Bill Gaines writing MAD musicals with an ear like that.
Alejandro - Thanks for the info. For anyone interested, several of Casares' translated works (and a few untranslated) are available via Amazon.com, and a number of used titles (including some out of print translations) can be found at abebooks.com. Peter - "A Rose For Emily" is an old favorite. It reminds me at times of the kind of tales Ambrose Bierce is remembered for, especially that killer last line. Keegan - Sappy for liking Whitman? "I dote on myself, there is that lot of me and all so luscious,/Each moment and whatever happens thrills me with joy,/I cannot tell how my ankles bend, nor whence the cause of my faintest wish,/Nor the cause of the friendship I emit, nor the cause of the friendship I take again." "Song of Myself" should be issued to every individual as they set out to find their place in the world, 'cause it opens all kinds of doors of introspection. Oh, and you didn't set that Dickinson poem to the tune of "The Yellow Rose of Texas", did you? Thought maybe you were responsible for that particular rumor/legend/myth.
Kids:
Not only did we loose one of the greatest filmmakers the silver screen has seen these past few days. Last night, we lost a great literary voice. Adolfo Bioy Casares, a longtime friend and writing partner of Jorge Luis Borges, died at the age of 84 in his native Buenos Aires. Along with Borges, Casares wrote a series of detective short stories (under the seudonym of Bustos Domecq) as well as prologues to several anthologies of detective fiction. He was one of the most important practitioners of the fantasy genre in Latin American literature. Alas, his work is very rarely translated to English. Given his connection to Borges, figured I would pass these sad news along.
PS: BILLY BUDD makes a fine opera. I dig Britten more than Melville, tho.
Speaking of which, I've always thought it would be a hoot to write a series of short opera based on Ellison stories. I'd love to do "Along the Scenic Route" as a rock opera. I'd do it using multimedia to give the audience the illusion of "being there"---it would have to employ film, but not *be* film.
I'm not sure I'd ever have the cajones to call up and even approach da man wit' a crazy idea like that one! Better left to better composers.
Didn't somebody used to lurk around here who wrote a ballet based on MIND FIELDS?
Anyway, good to read all the civil discourse. Carry on!
Sue: I've always dug D.H. Lawrence. Pretty risque stuff for somebody from the boonies.
Emily Dickinson is probably my favorite poet. She was some kind of beautiful weirdo! I actually set one of her poems to music: "Hope is the thing with feathers that perches in the soul,/And sings the tune without the words,/
And never stops at all,/ And sweetest in the gale is heard;/and sore must be the storm/ That could abash the little bird/ that kept so many warm./ I've heard it in the chillest land and on the strangest sea/But never in eternity it asked a crumb of me." Don't know *exactly* why I like that one so much, but I do.
Is it sappy to like Walt Whitman anymore? I don't care. "I sing the body electric....."
Shane: I agree about the director's cut. So was Grifter an alien who was left behind or the only human who was part of that hood? On a similar note, last week's X-Files was about a similar theme-restricted neighborhood, hush-hush activity, and strange happenings. Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I agree with HE that there ain't no aliens visiting us or UFO's buzzing around. However, I did see a strange object in the sky about 14 years ago when I was in law school down in Miami, which I can't explain-but am convinced it was NOT a UFO. Sue- I too am hooked on Bester after reading Stars My Destination. Charlie.
An addendum: PSI FACTOR was not nearly so bad as the DIAGNOSIS: MURDER episode which stared George Takei, Walter Koenig, and Bill Mumy. Wretched.
Well, I've spared you folks long enough. I'm going to indulge in a minor gloat: In four hours I'll be picking up Harlan and Susan at the airport.
On another note, my wife and I watched PSI FACTOR: "The Observer Effect" last night. I enjoyed Harlan's acting, which I found natural and without affectation. However, I can't say the same for The directors use of Grifter's "lurking." This is the first time I've seen the show and unless Harlan as Grifter returns, it will be the last time.
That last was a congratulatory note and a long delayed welcome to Syzygy. It was in no way intended to be a response to any messages which may or may not have appeared on this board.
Oh yeah. I forgot. I just read "A Rose for Emily" by Faulkner. I'd never read Faulkner before. I like what I've seen. Of course, now I'm trying to read "That Evening Sun"
---Peter
Actually, I care a lot about what Syz says (I'm gonna have to go with Sue on this one.) He has proven that when he drops his defensive posturing, he can be extremely intelligent and insightful. Anyhoo, onto a different, more satisfying thread.
Actually, Rick, I'll do it for you. Billy Budd was one of the most torturous and mindnumbingly difficult reads I have ever encountered. And I blame that on the fact that the first two hours of reading are nothing but backstory and nautical exposition. It wasn't until halfway through that I was able to discover a story. But then again, that's my opinion. Once I got past the opening (long opening) I was able to appreciate the rest of the text. I think of Billy Budd as a wonderful story but a serious case of unneccesary front loading.
Short story recommendations-- "Rappacini's Daughter," by Nathaniel Hawthorne, and "Everything That Rises Must Converge" by Flannery O'Connor.
---Peter
Okay, I've seen a few people mention Hemingway and I have a question. I'm working my way through his work by re-reading some old books of mine and picking up some new ones I've never read before. First of all, I'd forgotten how goddamn DEPRESSING the endings of nearly all his books are...jeez! Second, can someone tell me what the big deal about THE SUN ALSO RISES is? Is it interesting only in showing Hemingway's sparse style and his development as a writer or is there something just really really cool I'm missing? While I did think the character development and the portrayal of a sort of lost generation was interesting, I didn't see what else the book had to offer me - especially when compared to something like FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS.
Also, Syzygy, a pet peeve - save the signatures. Your name is in the heading and sometimes you're adding an awful lot of whitespace. If you need to sign the posts just a single carriage return will suffice. I just put the ability to do line spacings back into the comments board - I took it out because people were abusing it. BTW, I couldn't agree more about Gardner. However, on the subject of other authors I won't talk about how difficult a read I found "BillyBud"...
[A moment of shameless tribute, paid to a master]
My all time favorite literary visionary, without a doubt, has to be Herman Melville. Like Poe, he anticipated a wide range of literary forms. He anticipated the Kafkaesque in "Bartleby"; he gave us "The Paradise of Bachelors and the Tarturus of Maids" long before the 'woman's plight' story was commonplace; he produced works like "The Lightning Rod Man", which read like any story produced by Stephen King, Charles Beumont, or Ray Bradbury; he gave us adventure in the form of "Typee"; he gave us comic realism in "The Confidence Man"; he was one of the first men to challenge accepted political doctrine in "Benito Cereno"; and despite his ongoing struggle with the darkly existential questions concerning life (which he answered with stark honesty---and lyrical finesse---in "Moby Dick"), he never lost sight of that unique humanness that is created when the heart is in conflict with itself (as depicted in "Billy Budd").
No matter how often I hear the age old criticisms that are often levelled against good ol' Herman, he will forever remain, for me, one of the truest, and most genuine, visionaries that ever graced our planet. To me, it was Melville---not Kafka, or Camus, or Musil, or Sartre, or Proust, or Joyce, or Faulkner, or Miller, et. al.---who sounded in the arrival of the so-called modern age. He saw its coming nearly 100 years before anyone else. So, in that sense, it might be argued that the writers of the 20s and 30s were simply picking up where Melville had left off. Who knows? One thing is for certain, however: it is nice to know that writers such as Harlan Ellison are carrying on a tradition that this poor father of five dedicated his life to, without fame and without remuneration.
Syzygy Namirran
Sue - By no means are your affinities strange; I just find it hard to list all of the authors who bring me enjoyment. I liked Faulkner so much, I took his as one of my major authors in school. And while he can be daunting (I've attempted "Absolom, Absolom" three times - maybe some mountains can't be climbed after all), I think he's also very rich (personal fave? "Light In August"). And Alfred Bester is a wonder. I cringe every time I hear someone is contemplating "The Demolished Man" as a film (and that's been kicked around at least twice I know of). --Finder
Barney, Keegan, Finder, Peter, Finder, Alejandro, Chris, wylie (welcome back!), Otto, Gary, Shane, Charlie, Syz (notice the subtle use of a "familiar" form - to differentiate between Syzygy the Troll, whom I won't talk to, and Syz the webderhead, whom I will talk to... It's a Mom thing - we all call our kids by their full name when they are misbehaving.. whoa!! paragraph long aside, here..)...
Now *THIS* is what Webderland is about! :-)
I've taken down enough titles and authors, CD albums and peformers to keep me busy for another year (just *finding* some of them, so I _can_ read/listen may take that long - but the quest is as thrilling as the achievement - and once in hand, the enjoyement never ends..). Lots of brainfood and new perspectives to explore..
Good work everyone! *cracks the whip* Keep it coming! You guys may just succeed in making me an 'ever-so' classy literatti... OK, maybe only an upper-crust biker, slighty crisp around the edges.. *shrug* hey, it's still a step up.. And I *like* the stuff you are turning me on to..
Am I the only one who has strange affinities for Alfred Bester, D.H. Lawrence, Wallace Simpson, William Faulkner, Emily Dickinson, and C.S.Lewis? And can't spell the names of favorite authors? *sigh* (Dear Santa: I wanna a SpellChecker with AUTHORS NAMES!!) I didn't see those names mentioned on anyone's list - and I do appreciate that any list is seriously abridged to fit on a BBoard post..
Re: The Handmaid's Tale/In The Barn thread.. It's an odd thing, but stories like those (The Color Purple also comes to mind in the "woman's plight" category) which tell devastating truths in impossible to ignore graphic detail tend to put me off my feed for leangthy periods of time, and not be re-read (or re-watched if they are movies), because they torture me with images of evils so huge I don't want to live in the same world with them (or even have in my memory) - and I can do nothing to right the wrong, or get them *out* of my mind once they burn their way in. I'm not talking about quality, here - I'm talking about themes and the use of graphic details - and what I'm wondering what everyone else's take is on it.. I know HE wrote at leangth about graphic gore in slasher-horror movies in his reviews (but I'm not aware that he ever applied that to anything other than movies). So whadda y'all think? Is the pychic trauma of graphic details necessary to "get the point across"?
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
Finder: There are only a handful of John Gardner websites at the moment, most of which are linked from The JG Appreciation Page (which, I think, is the best site of all of them). I'm glad that you were able to find some interesting information. Liz Rosenberg's reminiscence of John is a telling portrait, I think. All of the essays that can be found in the 'papers' section are surprisingly insightful. It's a great website and an excellent resource.
The Art of Fiction is a landmark achievement, as far as books on writing are concerned. (I guess that's why I have three copies of it, all of which were found in used book stores). Ordering it through Amazon.com would probably be your best bet if you're looking for a replacement copy.
Also, On Becoming a Novelist (also by John Gardner) and Becomimg a Novelist, by Dorothea Brande (with an intro by John Gardner) are two additional books on 'writing' that are well worth the read. Brande's unique approach to 'what' a writer does---as opposed to 'how' he does it---is something that is rarely seen in self-help books of this kind; it's a 'must own' for any writer, in my opinion.
Syzygy Namirran
Charlie - I heard the news last night. I think of all the things I found most surprising was that Kubrick's major body of work consists of a mere eight films (from "Spartacus" on). With only passing attention to such stats, I would have presumed it much more. But he did more with those eight than most directors could accomplish with five times as many. Peter - You do know what you're saying, and your take on the writer's responsibility in learning is dead-on accurate. It just took me several years before I found it in me to say "screw 'em" to the ones who were more ego than anything else and simply go in search of my voice. Syzygy - thanks for the links; I didn't know SUNY Geneseo had an appreciation society for JG; and you helped rip another shroud of ignorance from my person: Liz Rosenberg became my senior advisor at SUNY-B when John Vernon went on sabattical to finish "Peter Doyle"; I didn't know she was JG's ex-wife - it's not one of those things that came up, you know? Every time I turn around, the world gets a little smaller. It's past time, I think, to get myself another copy of "The Art of Fiction" (my undergrad copy long since loaned out, never to return...) and apply myself to this thing called writing that I have, so far, merely dabbled in. Finder
Gary - Fraid not. Wasn't that the story 'Screamers' was based on? I haven't seen it, so I can't make a judgment call.
Mitch
For those who haven't heard, Locus on-lines reports that Stanley Kubrick died on Sunday. Charlie
Finder::: going back several days. I think you hit upon the major problem with teaching creative writing. First of all, as with any college course, you are basically being fed someone's ego on a stick. Every writer, college professor, and critic has an idea about what fiction should and should not be. To find more than three like minded professors in a college is almost impossible. So whereas one professor will claim that the end all be all of fiction is found within the pages of the New Yorker, another will consided the New Yorker crap and say that the only way to go is Hemingway minimalism. The task of the creative writing student is as such. Either, accept one way of writing from one professor as the ultimate in literature and stick with that, or absorb all of the knowledge that they care to impart, sort through it, throw out anything you think is bullshit, and party on. I think what scares most people away from writing is the idea that there is only one "right" way to write. There isn't. Writing style is molded to the individual, and it is the individual's responsibility to discover that style through practice, practice, practice.
Wow, I sound like I know what I'm saying. But this is only what I have gleaned from the last three years of serious study.
---Peter
Toto: If you want a 'modern' representation of Nietzsche-fied drama, try reading Judge on Trial, by Ivan Klima. In addition (and while I'm on the subject), Michelsson's Ghosts, by John C. Gardner, also follows a Nietzschean plot structure similar to that of Crime and Punishment.
In truth, it can be argued (albeit with some imagination) that Nietzschean ideology is present in any S.F. book that deals with eugenics, the suppression of 'inferior people, or the manifestation of one's 'will to power' in the form of any number of S.F. devices (both literarily and literally). For instance, Herbert's Dune and Brin's Uplift Saga might be considered homages to the great idea of the Ubermench. Or what about that famous Star Trek episose where we meet Kahn Noonian Singh for the first time? (Space Seed). (We're stretching the tenets of Freddy's philosophy here, but work with me.) And what about Moorcock's infinite worlds construct, in which time and space fold in upon itself in an eternal battle between Law and Chaos, where warriors are condemened to repeat their acts of bravery and cowardice? Sounds very similar to Nietzsche's mystical doctrine of Eternal Recurrence to me.
Also, all of the nega-utopian modern classics display elements of Nietzschean ideology: Utopia (Moore), Brave New World (Huxley), and 1984 (Orwell). It can even be argued that Animal Farm (Orwell), though a satire of Stalinism, also depicts a harrowing interpretation of Nietzschean belief, but from a political perspective.
Syzygy Namirran
::: the HE board-trollin', super-postin' fool of Webderland :::
DTS: Additionally, you have to keep in mind that Gardner had been writing for well over 10 years before he published any of his novels. Books such as October Light and Freddy's Book were conceived during the late 60s and early 70s, and not during the early 80s, as you might construe by their publishing dates.
Syzygy Namirran
Mitch - Do you know P.K. Dick’s “Second Variety?” I was expecting an entirely different ending from Dick than the one he gave us - one that I think would have been more, well, Dickian - and I wonder how common my expectation is. But I don’t want to spoil it for the good citizens who haven’t yet read it…
The history of Bread Loaf can be viewed here:
http://www.middlebury.edu/~blwc/History/WWTA.html
Syzygy Namirran
DTS: Thanks for your comments regarding Ellison's perception of Gardner. I have never come across anything by Ellison (an aside or otherwise) that would suggest any kind of criticism of Gardner. I had always wondered how Ellison took that attack in On Becoming a Novelist.
I think Gardner chose that particular 'piece' (of Ellison's) to attack 'bad' writing in general, and was not making a personal attack upon Harlan himself, although Gardner does specifically name HE as the 'dis-pollyannaish' author. I think he selected that particular passage because it is such a glaring, poorly written jumble of words, and it illustrates so perfectly the idea that Garder was, during that section of the book, trying to illustrate. You will also notice that, immediately following his 'rant' on Ellison's shoddy 'typing', he praises writers like Heinlein, Asimov and other S.F. luminaries, if I'm not mistaken. So, who knows if there was any specific, mean-spirited motivation?
As far as the 'book within a book' form is concerned: you are quite right. It was hardly a 'new' form. However, with respect to the publishing industry as a whole, it can be argued that, at the time, such techniques were not a commonplace. It is also interesting to note that you mention the work of John Irving, especially when you consider the fact that Irving was a student of John C. Gardner for nearly two years at the Bread Loaf writers workshop. You think Gardner influenced him?
You bet he did.
Syzygy Namirran
Namirran: I read a brief aside (somewhere) by Ellison in which he referred to Gardner as (sometimes) mean-spirited (that may not be on the money, but close enough for an ex-government employee). (He also mentioned that Gardner was a talented writer in the same paragraph). I believe the reason Ellison called him mean-spritied (I don't know for a fact, so this is just speculation) was that reference to Ellison in Gardner's 1980ish book on writing. I remember Gardner took a sort of throwaway, flippant sentence from an introduction Ellison had written to a (then)out-of-print book of stories (either OVER THE EDGE or FROM THE LAND OF FEAR), which collected mostly written in the 50's, and used it as an example of bad writing (Though it was a dated piece, with colloquialisms and such, I sometimes wonder if it was because Ellison used the word fart and offended Gardner's New England old-fashioned sensibilities). Since Gardner chose to use that particular quotation, from that particular book (when dynamite material from Ellison's more mature period -- such as "Repent Harlequin!.." anything from DEATHBIRD STORIES, "Jeffty Is Five," and dozens of crackerjack essays, etc., etc-- was available, it would be safe to assume that Gardner was, indeed, a sometimes mean-spirited old man. By the way, I'm not sure the use of a "book within book" narrative device was all that avant-garde by the time OCTOBER LIGHT ('76) and (especially) FREDDY'S BOOK ('80) were published. AUNT JULIA AND THE SCRIPT WRITER by Mario Vargas Ilosa was published in South America in '77, and THE WORLD ACCORDING TO GARP by John Irving came out in '78 (since publication was so close, year wise, we know that the separate novels weren't influenced by each other). Also, John Irving wrote what, for me, will always be one of his best novels, using the book within a book narrative (not to mention a script within the book, plus-third and first person narrative interspersed with sequences that were out place, time-wise, thereby reflecting the main character's disorientation with the rest of the world), the very hilarious THE WATER-METHOD MAN (for the record, along with GARP and WATER-METHOD -- though I love all his novels -- I think his REALLY good novels are THE CIDER HOUSE RULES, A PRAYER FOR OWEN MEANEY, A SON OF THE CIRCUS and A WIDOW FOR ONE YEAR). In the words of the immortal Stan, 'Nuff said. Out here, DTS.
Finder: John Champlin Gardner was a genius without peer. (But, hey, you already know my opinion of the guy :) ) In every book that he wrote you can see the mind of a genuine artist at work. He possessed the skill and vision of an unique craftsman, and was able to experiment with literary forms and styles without attenuating the purpose, or personal effect, of his fiction.
Books such as October Light and Freddy's Book, which used the 'novel within a novel' approach to form, were avant garde for their time. The Sunlight Dialogues is a sprawling, but uncommonly refined, tour de force composed of multiple viewpoints that make Batavia live and breath in the mind of the reader. Nickel Mountain, The Resurrection, and even the Wreckage of Agathon all possess the poignancy of the so-called 'pastoral' or 'mainstream' novel, but without sacrificing the import of their existential elucidation of the human condition. Michelsson's Ghosts is probably my favorite of Gardner's novels, if only because at every turn it sparkles like a gem.
Gardner's notebook, which he kept during his college years, called 'Lies, lies, lies', is scheduled for publication in the next couple of months. I believe you can pre-order it at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Also, there is a review (with excerpts) on the John Gardner appreciation page, which can be found at: www.sunygenesee.cc.ny.us/fac/boyd/gardner.htm
Hmmmm. I wonder what Harlan's opinion of Gardner's work is. In Gardner's 'On How to Become a Novelist', he attacks what he calls 'bad' writing by citing a paragraph from a story written by Harlan Ellison. It is well worth the read, I think, if only to see a dissenting opinion of Harlan's work.
Syzygy Namirran
Barney - Thanks for bringing John Gardner back to the fore-front of my consciousness with the mention on your list; I stumbled across a nice copy of his "Nickel Mountain" the other day as a result - a double-joy because it's set in my native Catskill Mountains. I often wish I'd had the chance to study under Gardner at SUNY Binghamton - his loss left some very large shoes that I don't think the English department has every truly filled. Peter (amd anyone else for that matter with observations on the subject) - while I'm contemplating my education, I'm curious - what values have your various professors applied to the study of creative writing? In my college career, I ran the gamut from those who felt it wasn't writing unless it could automatically be snapped up by The New Yorker, to those who insisted a la Hemingway that you shouldn't write it unless you'd lived it, and every philosophy in between. It had a very daunting effect, to the point where I didn't write straight prose for several years after college. My curiosity is whether this is a typical philosophical problem within the teaching of creative writing, or did I just have a really fragmented English department?
Gary - When I find myself rummaging in a used book store, P.K. Dick is always a name I pursue. 'A Scanner Darkly' just amazed me, and I love his short work too...If you don't mind me butting into your Koontz conversation with Peter, I'd also recommend 'Watchers' and 'The Servants of Twilight'. BTW, I understand how you feel about story endings. 'The Stand' would have been Stephen King's greatest novel, if the last 50 pages didn't drag so much.
Mitch
***Keegan*** For about 6 years I had a 45 minute commute and during that time I got real tired of what radio had to offer and rather than making mix tapes [which also get old in a hurry] I took to listening to books on tape which I sort of thought of as a cheat. To punish myself for "cheating" I made myself listen to things I thought I wouldn't enjoy reading. Sometimes I was right - "Wuthering Heights" comes to mind, but most often I was pleasantly suprised to discover why certain books had stayed in print for so long. Stephen Crane and Virginia Woolfe and the short fiction of Hemingway were real joys during those drives. At any rate, "Handmaids Tale" was one of my books on tapes and that was cruel and unusual punishment. I read about 800 words a minute so it takes alot longer for me to listen to a novel than to read it. To sit in traffic listening to that novel without recourse of rebuttal was torture. That book works WAY TOO WELL. Only a re-reading of "Big Two-Hearted River" brought me back into testosterone balance.
Upon reading the above paragraph let me be more clear. Atwood is a FINE writer. That's just not a fun book. She also did a collection of short pieces [I think it's all essays but I may be wrong] whose name escapes me, and that was also quite good. "Cat's Eye" didn't grab me, but what the hey.
Can anybody tell me the name of that Joanna Russ story about Oscar Wilde in the afterlife and where it may have appeared? I'll do something for you someday...
KEEGAN: it's been a long time, but I read "The Handmaid's Tale" several times. I remember thinking the movie was surprisingly close, but lacked the feeling of being inside that poor woman's head. Funny I never focused on the woman in the Piers Anthony story, what really struck me was what they did to the infants--taping their thumbs down, slitting the tongue, and keeping them in that dark protien bath--completly eliminating intellectual development. I always remembered that they did this to all of the herd--was it just the women? Clearly I won't be able to sleep until I reread it. Of course, will I be able to sleep after I do?
Wylie
Duh! "The Handmaid's Tale"---not "maiden". I actually *have* read the book (before seeing the movie, even). Forgive me.
Barney: Good call comparing "In the Barn" and "The Handmaiden's Tale." I'd venture to say that more people know "The Handmaiden's Tale" from the movie than know "In the Barn".
"In the Barn" is one of the most viscerally disgusting but salient stories I have ever read about the servitude of women. It succeeds in a universal depiction of woman as cow where "The Handmaiden's Tale" portrays woman as slave to man's God-given divine duty to procreate and dominate.
Yeah, man. Piers was way ahead of his time and doing direct battle with the demons in that one. It's just horrifying, nearly pornographic in a way, but dammit! It gets you thinking, and not in a prurient way. You start saying,"Man, the harsh metaphor illuminates a harsh truth."
Basta. I just thought it was a good call.
Peter: Sorry it took me so long to tell you, but I've been sick as a dog, and busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest (Mixed metaphors, ahoy!) Your story is wonderfully wrought. I've been trying to explain to someone why I'm snickering over it, but they weren't present for the glorious battles and don't quite get it . . .
Narriman: Thanks for your observations. I don't know if you missed this, but the original question was what modern works deal with religion in such a way that Nietszche would approve. Some of your answers still apply, but I don't think he would like, say, Crime and Punishment at all in this respect. Does this change your response?
BARNEY: tell me more about the similarities between "In The Barn" and "The Handmaid's Tale." You have me interested. Catch ya later. Wylie
***Chris/Wylie***"In the Barn" by Anthony was in Again, Dangerous Visions, and yes, I agree, it still has that disturbing quality. Especially when you consider that it pre-dates Atwood's "The Handmaids Tale" by about 20 years. I think that people come down on Anthony because they perceive a genuine talent squandered when they come across something like that. On the other hand I can't find it in my heart to denigrate anybody who entertains that many people without leaving track marks. In High School I remember burning through Omnivore/Orn/Ox and Macroscope and thinking they were pretty darn slick.
***Syzygy*** Obviously, Harlan likes Sterling, as he got Sterling's 1st novel, "Involution Ocean" into print. I know that he has read the writers in the "Mirrorshades" anthology and if I remember the gist of his comments fromover ten years ago correctly it was that while he liked most of what he read, he thought the grouping together of these diverse voices was a sort of false one. A maketing ploy, if you will, and, like the hype of the "new wave" writers of the 1960's it was a sort of phantom or false grouping. an infusion of new blood in distinct doses. Speaking of blood, I think you could say the same thing for the now defunct "splatterpunk" movement. What do Kathe Koja, John Skipp, and Joe R. Landsdale have in common? Marketing.
Gabbgabbahey! Y2K! Gabbagabbahey!
Barney
God damn. That's Incarnations, not Incartations. The further I get from school, the worse my spelling becomes. sorry.
CHRIS: I really liked the first couple Incartations . . . by Piers Anthony myself. They had real bite. Does anyone remember his contribution to, oh jeez--I don't remember if it was the first or second--Dangerous Visions? It was chilling and I've never been able to get it out of my head. If I really wanted to stifle my son and keep his intelligence and ambition from driving me nuts I know exactly how to do it, thanks to that very un-Xanth-like short story. Happy Trails. Wylie
Hey, there. Long-time lurker, very, very occasional contributor here.
I picke dup the most recent issue of Wizard and saw a reference to our favorite author. DC Comics is going to start a "Real Worlds" line of books (no word on what the exact theme is.) The only thing the blurb in Wizard had to say was that "sci-fi author Harlan Ellison" (their words, not mine) and possibly Peter David would team up to write a Superman story to kick off the new line. It's been a while since Harlan wrote a mainstream super-hero story, hasn't it? I'm looking forward to it.
To tie-in to a few recent threads: Stephen King, for all his riches, is one of the most underrated writers around. He gets dismissed by the elitists but he's damned good. I love _The Stand_ but I think his best book might actually be one of his most recent ones, _The Green Mile_. That's the only book I ever tried to read with my eyes closed. "The Bad Death of Edward Delacroix" might be the most horrifying thing he's ever written.
And to make you all not like me :) I'll toss out Piers Anthony as a favorite author. No, I don't read him much anymore and haven't since I grew up. But I thought he was the bomb when I was growing up and he's one of the main reasons I got so interested in speculative fiction and, indeed, in reading, period. So I give him full credit for that. I think _Tarot_ and the first two books of the Incarnations of Immortality series are truly great novels.
-chris
Does anyone know if Harlan Ellison has ever made any comments (criticial or otherwise) pertaining to the work of William Gibson? I would like to know how Harlan perceives Neuromancer, Idoru, Mona Lisa Overdrive, et. al.
I have always been curious as to how Harlan perceives writers who have, in recent years, mined the imaginitive legacy passed down to them from pioneering cyberpunk visionaries, writers like John Brunner, for instance. Besides it being a dead vogue, has Harlan said anything else about the cult of 'cyberpunk'?
Syzygy Namirran
Shane::: a very interesting view. Especially since I think I picked up a copy from a B&N remainders table a year or so ago. I'm not sure if its the same book, and I won't be able to confirm until this weekend... but...
---Peter
I checked out KINGDOM OF FEAR on Amazon.Com and it showed Out of Print. I then went over to Barnes&Noble an I got an interesting view of the secondary book market. Check it out:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/OopBooks/OopResults.asp?userid=2V8TSS98BY&mscssid=XA1R69XWSJSH2M1E00LHRV9828CT747F&pcount=0&title=kingdom+of+fear&emessage=99
Let us Ellison fans not forget B. Traven.
-Gary
Damn! I forgot James Joyce. How can I forget James Joyce? Portrait is an inspiration to me. How can I forget Joyce?
---Peter
oooh, finder. Thanks for reminding me of Matheson. I don't know why I forgot about him. I Am Legend is one of the best stories I've read this year.
Barney::: I think you forgot Mark Twain.
My problem is that I've read so many books by so many different authors that I have unknowingly re-read books and have wondered why things seem familiar. Added to my list are Rob Grant, Doug Naylor, Raymond Feist, JRR Tolkien, Roald Dahl, George Alec Effinger, Willy Shakespeare, Clive Cussler, Arthur Conan Doyle, HG Wells, JM Coetzee, Dante, Homer, Jonathan Swift, Voltaire, George Orwell, Steinbeck, Dickens, Emil Zola, Erasmus, Thoreau, Rousseau, and Hemingway.
And the Koontz I had recommended was Dragon Tears.
---Peter
Since everyone is listing some of their favorites, I'll throw Jonathan Lethem's name out. I've read his short stories in Best of Crank! and enjoyed them. James Patrick Kelly's "Think Like a Dinosaur" was a winner. Love the humor of Terry Bisson- Next! Charlie
In addition to those already mentioned (many of whom I enjoy): Charles Beaumont, Richard Matheson, Washington Irving, Rudyard Kipling, T.S. Eliot, William Carlos Williams and Edgar Allan Poe.
And as an aside, Amazon.com is listing Edgeworks 5 as an August 1999 release.
Shane- Thanks for audio tape referral. I have heard it before. I love HE's "ship" voice. I'm looking forward to the Showtime program. I just ordered S-time today for the show, then I'll cancel after (the cable co. pro rates the price). Warming up the VCR-Charlie
Jim Thompson, Donald Westlake, James M. Cain, Rex Stout, James Ellroy, and Horace McCoy.
Hunter S. Thompson, Ernest Hemingway, T.C. Boyle, John Gardner [ie. "Sunlight Dialogues"], John Steinbeck, and Robertson Davies.
Robert E. Howard, Howard Woldrop, Bruce Sterling, Ray Garton, Joe R. Landsdale and H.P. Lovecraft.
Marvin Kaye, Parke Godwin, Kaye and Godwin, Eddison, Peake, Jonna Russ, T.H. White, Thorne Smith, Lord Dunsany. and Robert W. Chambers.
Jorge Amado, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, V.S. Naipal, CarlosFuentes and Jorge Louis Borges.
Langston Hughes, Rudyard Kipling, Nikki Giovani, Dorothy Parker, Keats and Baudelaire.
Charles Dickens, Virginia Woolf, and Thomas Hardy.
Mark Twain , Mark Twain and Mark Twain.
I'm sorry. I seem to have dropped some names. What a mess. Hope somebody picks them up. And for anybody who thinks, well, yeah, sure, of course, those folks, I'll just say that only four of those above named meant anything to me when I was 16 so re-stating the obvious does no harm.
Strugatsky wise, I just happened to pick up a copy of "Far Rainbow"/"The Second Invasion From Mars" on Monday. I'll let you know. Regards - Bibliobarney
CHARLIE: Harlan does a great reading of THE HUMAN OPERATORS on audio tape. What follows is the information from Amazon.Com.
Kaleidoscope/The Human Operators [ABRIDGED]
by Ray Bradbury, Harlan Ellison (Contributor)
List Price: $4.99
Our Price: $3.49
You Save: $1.50 (30%)
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours.
Audio Cassette (May 1997)
Stellar Audio; ISBN: 156740958X ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.58 x 6.95 x 4.54
My list was just a general account of what I've read recently. Actually, the first novel I ever read was Nine Princes of Amber by Roger Zelazny (I was nine). I recently re-read the entire Amber series and found that I still loved it. If I had been thinking a little clearer I would have added Morgan Llywelyn to the list. If anybody is interested in MY family's history, you should check out Last Prince of Ireland by Llywelyn. Also, Druids is a great book.
---Peter
Damn, how could I forget Michael Moorcock?? My brain must be on 'simmer' this morning. How can anyone even mention Fantasy without conjuring memories of Jerry Cornelius, Hawkmoon, Corum, Erekoese, and Elric? That's like suggesting there are no such characters as Spiderman, Batman or Superman in the comic book world?
Syzygy Namirran
::: lofting in Tanelorn :::
Long time, no hear, or write or electronic buzz or whatever.
Just following on Peter's thread (and very commendable reading list…and so is yours Syzygy's), here is mine. Not by genre, but by author. A dnot necessarily in alphabetical order.
Arturo Perez-Reverte (author of "The Flanders Table" and "The Dumas Club", and other great intellectual thrillers and swashbuckling adventures which have yet to be translated to English); Neil Gaiman; Zoe Valdes (a very good Cuban writer. Her stuff truly portrays today's Cuba digging deep into her countrymen and women's psyche. Some of her shorter novels are already available in English), John LeCarré; P.G. Wodehouse; Ana Lydia Vega (a very funny Puerto Rican short story ariter whose work can be found scattered in some anthologies); Gabriel García Márquez (of course); Harlan Ellison (well, duh); Ellis Peters; P.D. James; John Mortimer; Warren Ellis (Transmetropolitan is a must read for any Ellison fan); Isaac Asimov; Rosario Ferré ("The HOuse in the Lagoon", "Eccentric Neighborhoods"). And the list goes on and on and on.
My 'picks', for what it's worth . . .
Science Fiction/Fantasy:
Robert Silverberg, Fritz Leiber, Ursula K. LeGuin, Theodore Sturgeon, Dan Simmons, Poul Anderson, John Brunner, Kim Stanley Robinson, Stephen R. Donaldson, Jack Vance, Ben Bova, Ray Bradbury, Lawrence Norfolk, Kate Wilhelm, and Lisa Tuttle.
Horror/Dark Fantasy:
Thomas Ligotti, T.E.D. Klein, August Derleth, Fritz Leiber, Thomas Tessier, Steve Rasnic Tem, Ramsey Campbell, Thomas M. Disch, Michael McDowell, Kim Antieau, Clive Barker, Kathe Koja, Brian Hodge and, of course, John Saul (Ha! That last is a J.O.K.E.)
Okay, who did I forget?
Syzygy Namirran
Peter: Aha. Your reading list contains some leads for me to explore. But I wonder, which Koontz title did you recommend? Years ago I tried two - Phantoms and Lightning - and though I was hooked by each of them, I found their final payoffs less than satisfying. I didn’t feel they delivered on the promise of all the pages intently turned. I reckon I’ll take another swing if there’s another title you recommend.
Any fans of Philip Dick out here? Or the Strugatskys, Boris and Arkady? I’d recommend digging up a copy of Definitely Maybe. ABE has a number of reading copies. Or Richard Adams’ The Girl in a Swing. Any opinions?
"*Barney*-your heart is pure so amiably so and becomes a fetching face."
*** Lord Madrak - My dog is amiable and has a "fetching face". Oh woe that you or I have become so.
But that thing about mouths like caves, cause, like, sometimes you can't see where they are going, and you can like, slip on batshit and stuff and like, hurt yourself - right on.
People are never as they seem. They only appear to be so. I gave my writing professor a recommended reading list of what I thought he would consider "crappy bestsellers and awful midlist writers" and told him that he should read some of them before making broad generalizations about any books. He was actually quite impressed. I don't think he has ever really read anything without someone telling him that he should read it. Maybe he'll come away with a broader sense of taste, and a better understanding about what other people actually read. Or he may approach these books with nothing but disgust and a need to hate whatever it is I've given him. Only time will tell. But he is not a complete loss. If he can love something as god awful as the original Star Wars movie (I liked it when I was a kid, but I can't watch it now. I just get so BORED, the sequals were much better) then maybe he can like what I've recommended. Included in my list were, King's short story collections and the Dark Tower novels, All Ellison in print, Gaiman, Pratchett, Barker, 1 Koontz, Ken Follet (Pillars of the Earth), Zelazny, and Douglas Adams. If he can find nothing of value in any of these, then he has truly been twisted by the evils of academia. hehehe.
---Peter
The feeble doth clamor and shake upon these strange and lit frontiers, etching forever hates in twisted rock. The Dark Knight cometh. I pray thee rest thyself, or put off to yonder barrow. When darkness falls, the ear of culpability sounds itself wrong and hollow... *Peter*-your wind blows north and tickles hearts with ease and lilting grace. *Barney*-your heart is pure so amiably so and becomes a fetching face. *Syzygy*-your mouth is cavernous and caved so deep it blandly tells your place. I sayeth unto you... kneel before our King.
\^|^/ Lord Madrak Kaj \^|^/
Actually, now that I think about it, the book of essays on Stephen King, to which I referred, is called 'Kingdom of Fear'. Also, in addition to the Harlan Ellison contribution featured in this book, there is a wry and superbly crafted anecdote by Ramsey Campbell that should be 'checked out'.
Syzygy Namirran
::: vowing to shut up now, Xray :::
The problem is King is neither fish nor fowl. He writes a story as well as John D. MacDonald or Donald Westlake which is fine for the kinds of morality tales he likes to tell. On the other hand, he will occasionally talk about "digging up something big from the sand" ie. The Dark Tower series, which, to my way of thinking, has yet to pay off in literary rerms, and at it's projected length. probably won't, other than as a collectors investment in the case of the HC editions. I don't think it's unkind to level certain criticism at King. The Tommyknockers, The Regulators, and sections of Needful Things are horribly bloated and overwrought. On the other hand "Different Seasons" and many of the other short stories and novellas are fine and wonderfu, even superlativel. But when you are reading something written at that length [which I think King has acknowledged is frequently an act of compression for him] you have to change your standards. Is Misery better than everyhthing Dean Koontz has produced at that length? I think so. Has King hit the level of Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" or "We Have Always Lived In the Castle". Nope. But he knows that's the real game. Boxing Turgenev and wrestling Hemingway are the only way to avoid ending up as unread as those twenty odd Waverly novels by Sir Walter Scott I've got sitting behind me.
In content news - http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Cinema/8998/
Is a site soliciting funds and other assistance in the production of a short film adaptation of the short story by Ellison, "Paulie Charmed the Slleping Woman". Not to be confused with the equally nifty "Paulie Charmed, the Sleeping Woman". I hope some of the initial $7,000.00 went toward paying for the rights to the story or there will be merry hell to pay.
Play nice. peaceloveout.
Peter,
In regard to Stephen King:
A few years ago, a journalist friend of mine who was writing a review for a newly released Stephen King book (Gerald's Game, I believe) said to me, rather nonchalantly and without criticism, "You know, Stephen King is a fine writer. He knows 'story' really well, and his characters have such a depth to them, you know. I just wish he'd be a little more ambitious."
While I am not a Stephen King fan by any stretch of the imagination, I did understand the main thrust of her point. At the time, I had read Skeleton Crew, Night Shift, and a few of his (rather lengthy) 'novels', and, in spite of what I perceived as a merely discursive, perhaps even rambling way of developing a story (or digging up a house, as King has said of the writing process), I did enjoy his ability to create vivid and thoroughly believable characters. To this day I wonder what King might be able to produce should he ever stray away from his child-like preoccupation with kitsch horrors. Indeed, Dan Simmons, in an interview for Cemetery Dance magazine, expressed these very same feelings, praising Different Seasons as King's premier contribution to what might be considered 'the mainstream'. Then, of course, there is The Man in the Black Suit, which won the O'Henry award for the short story in . . . . hmmm. . . was it 1996? I can't quite remember. Personally, I think that if King wrote more books with the emotional 'centering' of, say, Different Seasons, I think he'd be able to win the respect of the so-called literary establishment without any effort at all. Sometimes I view Stephen King as I used to view Chris Cornell (from Soundgarden): if he'd just stop singing inside the space of one octave, he might just discover that his vocal range is really quite extraordinary.
Additionally, Harlan Ellison wrote a short essay on Stephen King for a book entitled "The Art of Darkness" (I think that is the correct title-my memory seems a bit cloudy on this one. The book also features an intro by Clive Barker and a collection of essays written by other horror/dark fantasy luminaries such as Thomas F. Monteleone, among others.) In this essay, Harlan singles out King's 'good' writing from his 'bad' writing. Among the 'good' he lists Night Shift and Skeleton Crew (again, if memory serves) and among the 'bad' he lists Christine (and perhaps Firestarter: I'll have to unearth the book later this evening.)
As an aside: a couple of days ago I read "Lunch at the Gotham Cafe" (as collected in Dark Love-a somewhat recent erotic horror anthology) at the behest of my lovely fiance. While I found the first half of the story to be interesting (the protagonist's anguish, the main profluence of the plot, and the impressionistic way of trading dialogue were all nice touches) I found the second half of the story to be rather dull and unfocused. In fact, as soon as the Maitre'd starts exclaiming his patent "Eeeeeeee!", the story simply founders (in my opinion.) Why this story won the Bram Stoker award, I don't know. What I do know, however, is that it seems to me Stephen King will never have the incentive to try his hand at rendering more ambitious themes in his writing for as long as his peers continue to bestow upon him an unabated stream of sparkling accolades. After all, why should he? As long as his fans like his work, and as long as he continues to be successful, why would he want to write something else? Unless, of course, he has something new to say . . .
Syzygy Namirran
Hey Peter. We must keep the same hours 'cause I seem to post just after you a lot. I loved the story, too. It recaps my entire short history on the board into a comical saga with lots of your terrific perspective. Gracias!
Sue--thanks for commenting on Adam's obit. You're so nice to me.
Some friendly advise for all: don't wait 'til 11pm to start figuring your taxes, especially if you're really green at it, like me. Crap! 'Night all. Wylie
My first real exposure to HE was through Danse Macabre. And because of that book, i'm still looking for a copy of Strange Wine. But even more to the point, if I hadn't read Danse Macabre several years ago, I never would have continued writing. For years I had been writing small snippets of things, never finishing, never thinking anything was good enough, or developed enough, or if I was even doing it right or not. Danse Macabre took away a lot of the superstitions and mysticisms that keep people from writing. Which, now that I think about it, is a funny thing to say about a book dedicated to analyzing the art of horror. It is also that book which reminds me that King himself is the genuine article when it comes to writers. Most of my professors dismiss him as a third rate "bestseller" hack who has tuned into the lowest common denominator. "I read a Stephen King book last summer." My current writing professor said, "And now I keep it where it belongs. Next to the toilet."
Okay, I just snipped a very long rant. To sum up. I'm going to have a serious outburst the next time my writing professor decides he must champion "literary" novels by attacking King as the antichrist of literature. I just want to be around long enough to see King studied in schools, right after the section on Ellison. Of course, hehehe. I get to give my writing professor my latest story. He gets to see how nucking futs this little Irish-catholic boy really is. Don't get me started on his little "Flannery O'Connor's work is seriously Effed up, and it has to do with her catholic upbringing. In fact all catholics are slightly effed up, it has to do with all of the symbolism they have slammed down their throats. all of it, from the stations of the cross to the fact that where most christian churches have plain crosses, Catholic churches add the emaciated corpse with dripping blood." And the funny thing is, I'm not even religious. I'm catholic in my soul but atheistic in my practices.
Okay, I'm seriously ranting. I'm checking into slumberland for a few hours, hopefully I'll get off this "evil professor" jag.
---Peter
If the word 'Arizona' conjures images of featureless deserts and cow skulls, I say unto you, "Feh!". I spent last week there, and it was bee-yooti-ful. The kind of place where you'd like to retire...next month. So while I'm out there I find a copy of Deathbird Stories. It meant alot to me, because it was the first of HE's books I'd read, and my previous copy has been missing for a few years. BTW, who else was introduced to Ellison via Stephen King's 'Danse Macabre'?
FINDER - If all goes well, I'll be at I-Con too. Maybe we can meet up at the Star Trek panel and pelt the room with jellybeans...
Mitch
I thank everyone for the overwhelmingly positive response to my story. I'm just sorry that you're all not editors. It is nice to know that people do enjoy my creations. Thank you, again.
Rick::: Just suck the whole thing up and transplant it onto the contributions page. While my web space isn't very precious, it is impermanent. When I'm going through a web page phase, I tend to do wipes and rebuilds, and so, the story might get lost in one of those. I also like the idea of links to the pertinent discussions.
---Peter
Peter: Loved the story! It was a stitch!
Peg: I always love your contributions!
Back in two weeks!
Au revoir, mes amies!
Yes, the Outer Limits episode is a sanctioned and approved adaptation of the HE/AE collaboration.
Syzygy - As for HE's real sentiments, you won't see me defending them. Harlan is an elitist and although he doesn't like to be called on it he does not deny it. He would be perfectly happy if the earth swallowed up around 90% of the population. I happen to disagree with him at the moment, but the older and the older I get the more I see his point...
Peter - love the story, would you prefer I link it or just suck the whole thing over to the contributions page? I'll probably also add a link or two to it from the appropriate comment board archive pages.
Query: Showtime lists "Human Operators" on Outer Limits for 3/12. Is this from the HE short story w/VanVogt? Charlie
*Finder* Yeah, what you said! *laf* I recalled the numbers from Xenogenesis but didn't want to quote - knowing that there would be an example SOMEWHERE that contradicted.
BTW, Syzygy, I'm sure you already noticed, but just in case, and for the benefit of others, and so I can put more commas in one sentence than normal grammar would allow *smirk*, I'd like to point out that Finder and I have maintained a civil tone during this discourse and, I think, really tempered the vocabulary so that there is no impression of HE-worship. At least I know I've made that effort.
On your part, I appreciate that your comments - at least those directed specifically at me - have likewise been more civil (although your tendency to insult still comes through in other parts of your posts). In seriousness, would you care to comment on the distintion between HE's obvious distaste for mindless fans - or more appropriately, mindless behavior - as opposed to his general approval of "fandom" and his specific appreciation of artistic, creative effort? Pray continue with the more civil tone you've recently displayed.
And one other bit. I try to be objective, and level headed, and avoid (for the most part) writing any ranting insulting flaming posts. However, I do notice a trend in that _most_ of what you have said about HE is negative in some content or intent. Or, to be more clear, that the *provocative* things you've said have been negative.
Do you have anything positive to suggest or question? Perhaps a debate about the theme of story or social commentary from an essay? I ask because from most of your posts you don't seem to care for much of what Harlan writes or says. [I'm sure there were a few bits in your posts that contradict that, but frankly I'm not gonna re-read everything now - there's just too much stuff! ;-) ] And if that's the case, I don't know why you'd *want* to hang around here, unless it's just to try and convert people. In which case, I'd offer one of my favorite sayings - don't know who by:
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
Anyway, look forward to the constuctive, civil commentary to come (hey, ya gotta keep a positive outlook - just call me the cockeyed optimist).
Peg
Peg - I'll go ya' one better (and it's a rambler, too) - I think Harlan best summarized his feelings towards fandom in general in the opening paragraphs in "Xenogenesis", where he took pains to identify that in his estimation, the essay wasn't applicable to 95% (I believe) of fandom, but the 5% who felt that authors were their play-toys, or owed them something, or simply behaved in ways no civilized person would towards another human being. Because he came, originally, from the world of fandom, and because he's familiar with others who broke through from the fan ranks to the professional level, and because in the vast fan base of today, he has seen in some that glimmer of brilliance and honest respect for what SF can do to fire the imagination, I think he's harder on the masses that blindly follows a "Star Trek" or a "Star Wars" or some such because he knows there's great potential underneath that's just going fallow. To read and appreciate speculative fiction takes imagination, which is the raw material of creativity. There has to be a disappointment for HE in knowing these are intelligent people who can get their minds around high concepts, but instead of stumping for space exploration, or exploring the possibilities of clean energies, or even channeling their time into expanding the hopeful, possible futures SF has to postulate, or documenting SF's rich past, they're endlessly debating if Picard could kick Kirk's ass. And as someone who decries being placed on a worship-pedestal, who regularly says he doesn't want to have zombie followers who treat his words as gospels, it has to further annoy HE to see the vast fan base manipulated in ways such as Paramount's squeezing of Star Trek fans for every last possible nickel for some of the worst crap ever put between covers. I don't feel he berates SF fans to be mean. I feel his intent is more of a tough love: 'wake up, can't you see they're peddling you schlock because you let them, and they know they can. Don't let them sell you short like that - and don't sell yourself short, either.' He's not the quiet father who's going to sit you down and explain the big picture of the world, and why it's important to think for yourself. He's the streetwise uncle who's going to cuff you upside the head, call you numbnuts, and proceed to open your eyes to the ten things you did to cut yourself off at the knees today. And it's going to hurt like a buzzsaw, but he'll at least help you up when he's done and send you off with a few hints on how to better your situation. Does Harlan really not 'get' the fan mentality? Of course not. But he's like a child on Christmas (so to speak) when SF fandom rises to the level of inventiveness and ingenuity he knows it's capable of, when it eschews the formulaic and the trite and thinks outside of the box. Syzygy - Let's step it back one step farther. Maybe it's more that you're taking his laughter as dismissive. Is it perhaps that you're approaching HE from a defensive posture, which is affecting your open-mindedness? Believe me, given his public persona, a guarded approach is fully understandable. The first time I ever stood on line and met the man, his first words to me were a dig about the shirt I was wearing. And it was so sly, it didn't really sink in for a couple of weeks just how he'd put me down. Should I have jumped up and down about how rude he was? No - I knew what I was getting in to when I went in. (I wore my crucifix the next time - now a story for a rainy day...) And not to blow my own horn, but I'm a pretty savvy guy, and I grew up with three sisters who knew how to deliver an insult - so to needle me in a manner where I went oblivious to the whole meaning for a couple of weeks actually impressed the hell out of me. I am an extreme case, your mileage may vary, but ultimately, he plays rough - even with good friends like Joe Straczynski. It's a part of who he is, and it's either your cup of tea, or it isn't. But once you understand the whys of his attitudes and his manner, it goes a long way to a better understanding of his voice and how he uses it. And if you haven't read it, run down a copy of "Xenogenesis" (Collected in Edgeworks 1, or in an issue of Asimov's SF magazine, which will be in the bibliographical database (Rick, have I mentioned lately that this website is a fantastic resource?) - it's a very interesting piece, though it's no cake-walk of a read, and it may give you some new avenues of thought onthe matter. -- Finder
Namirran,
You keep promising us you'll shutup and crawl back under your rock, yet you remain to pain our collective buttocks.
Please, just go away already!
Your best friend,
Xray
*Syzygy* - I agree HE does berate SF fans quite a bit, but as Finder pointed out so well (how conisely he summarized my page of babble into a couple of sentences) it's very much directed at those with the -herd- mentatility.
I actually find this to be fairly common in Harlan's non-fiction work, esp. commentaries on the public in general. He tends to dislike, disdain, berate, be intolerant of, etc., people who let the crowd dictate their taste, their thoughts. It's not the opinion in particular he abhors - it's the lack of personal thought or examination behind it. If there's a fault it's that Harlan doesn't clearly differentiate that each and every time he speaks. Personally, I've heard/read/seen him make this point often enough that I'm comfortable he doesn't deride all fans and that in general, whether SF or not, he much more appreciates intelligence, thought, and effort. My own personal experience with him (limited to an hour phone call) certainly exhibited that characteristic.
The sad thing is that many folks who are probably intelligent, thoughtful, hardworking, etc., in their everyday existence switch or succumb to the herd mentatility at conventions. It's like you get to see them at their worst, instead of their best.
Peg
Peter: hilarious !!
Syzygy Namirran
::: slinking away to a dark place beneath a bridge :::
Sue: Thanks for the . . . well, thanks for nothing, really. It's nice to see that you're still antagonistic as ever. I suppose that horse just ain't dead yet, huh? As I said to Doc, oh so many moons ago: 'Get a grip'.
Syzygy Namirran
Finder: In his own comic way, I can certainly understand that HE is poking fun at the zealous devotion displayed by some of his fans. He just sounds too patronizing to me, I guess. Maybe I'm just taking his dismissive laughter too seriously [?]
Peg: I have to admit, you are quite right in your assessment of the pewter raygun 'bit'. HE's comments about 'zombification' were directed mainly toward convention organisors. I didn't mean to post the segment as a defense of anything; I posted it really for Scot's edification. I guess, while I was watching it again (and writing out the text) the critic in me got hold of my tongue again, and so I went nuts with my Red Reproaching Pen. There are numerous segments in which HE berates S.F. fans with much more tactlessness, however. So, I'm still unconvinced that his comments are meant as merely 'poking fun'. I mean, it's a runnig motif in a lot of what he has to say. And isn't that taking a harmless 'joke' a little too far?
Rick: I wasn't attacking He at all. I was just curious as to how his feelings about obsessive fans are interpreted by this board. As far as me being hypocritical is concerned: if you say that I was being a hypocrit *and* aping HE simultaneously, then I think I've proven my point. After all, my 'show' was just that--a show of self-contradictory hypocrisy.
We're talking about HE's real sentiments here . . . well, supposedly, anyway.
Peter: I haven't read your story yet. I will after posting this. Can't wait to see how you painted me! :) Like an ego-maniacal tyrant inent upon ruining everyone's fun, I'm sure of it. Ha!
Syzygy Namirran
Peg - I'd say your appraisal of the SF Buzz segment in question is right on the numbers; From what I've seen, Harlan very much admires when fans apply their energies to creative prusuits - and he dislikes the herd mentality that drives the majority of fandom. I'd like to believe that HE has passed the occasional insight or commentary to the board via Rick precisely because here there is pertainant, earnest and intelligent debate, and not drooling, dull-witted fan-boy silliness...Syzygy - You really need to cleanse yourself of those negative ions; A personal anecdote: on my wall is a picture of Harlan laying a mock blessing on myself and my accomplice, Xanadu (not his real name), for a gift created of our hands that knocked the man's socks off. In the thank-you note which hangs beside it, HE writes in part "...receiving a gift of such inventiveness and resonance bulks large in my affections." You see derisive, mocking laughter in his comment that only a fan would go and make ray-guns. Quite the contrary, personal experience tells me he honestly finds joyful wonder when people take their appreciation of this thing called science fiction and channel it into a creative labor. Peter - You're a scream! I have to admire anyone who can take my blather and actually make it sound learned. Maybe it is silly, but so what? The circumstances it was based on weren't exactly "Hamlet" to begin with. The broad narrative style is very much in keeping with the fantasy tone. I enjoyed. Keegan - Bravo! I'm reminded of something I overheard at the table next to me at Blues Alley once: "You play rock for popularity. You play jazz for respect." Still, I think it's a shame there aren't more garage quintets. The world would be a much better place if kids were learning "Blue Train" instead of "Stairway To Heaven"... Maggie - "Kind of Blue" was my introduction to Miles; a dozen CDs later, I'm still only beginning to appreciate his mastery. (Hint - it's a different sound, but if you want to explore him further, give "Miles Ahead" a spin...) Hope you have a fantastic trip! ALL - I-Con is but a month away. Anyone besides me making the trip? And did anyone catch HE's acting turn on PSI Factor this past week? I was in a place where it doesn't air, so I missed out. I'm understandably curious... Finder
Peter - read the story ROFLMAO mean anything to ya? Good work.. Brutal honesty? I just know what I like. ..;-).. Thanks for the URL, and sorry I didn't e-mail.. Somehow I got the idea it was going to be posted on Webderland, and didn't want to bother you with e-mail if I was gonna get the goodies anyway..
Maggie - have fun! I would.. if I got to do anything that COOL!
Wylie - I am so sorry to hear that Adam is gone.. I enjoyed his posts, and wondered why he stopped posting.. But thought it was the usual cyberthing - too much to do, too little time.. So many people drop in for a while, and move on before we get to know them as people on the board. Thanks for sharing a little of his life with us.
Thus Spracht Suluustra: Hey Narriman, I'm talking to you again - you're still just trolling - you're still lame - and your literary style took a nose-dive into the vernacular, losing all that pretense of superiority luster. If you don't have something to contribute to an active thread - DON'T. It's not required. If you have something to add - remember that brevity is the soul of wit. Ellison doesn't need defending from the likes of you. You have a loooong learning curve, don't you?? I'm done talking to you again.
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
*Syzygy* - I saw the episode you mention, but I did not get the same tone from most of the material, though I can see where some parts were up to interpretation. I think a main point where we differ is I didn't think HE saw the raygun maker as a zombie; I believe that really was pointed towards the fan convention crowd.
My impression was that HE was very impressed with the artistry and craftsmanship of the ray guns, and surprised that no one was buying them. Kind of like an amazement in the lack of interest in something so keenly wrought. I got the idea that he really felt for the guy that there was such a poor showing at the cash register. This type of fan project seemed to be something Harlan admired.
At the same time, I know Harlan does not tolerate fan *worship*, which is distinct from *inspiration*. I would say the raygun maker falls into different category than someone who dresses up just like their favorite character to go to the convention and get an autograph. The artist takes the inspiration and couples it with sweat and effort to create something admirable and astonishing; the dressed-up fan is an imitator, many times seeking to enhance their own image or flatter the original by their action. Not necessarily bad, but certainly the two aren't lumped together.
Then there are the people who plan conventions, who "spend a year subverting their own lives (said with a laugh), losing their marriages, doing whatever they have to to put on a convention." Well, consider that a lot of what goes on at conventions is the later of the above (fan), not the former (inspriration). Then add in the disturbing element - those who throw the vomit, those whose main question is "when is your next book coming out", those who believe that because you created something that they have the right to trash it. I imagine HE finds it incredulous that anyone would spend that much time and effort to put on such an event; more from the "I would never waste my own time on that" standpoint. Personally, I think he's a bit harsh on this one, it's generally one of those thankless jobs.
I restate - I *know* that HE thinks that the worship or idolatry of the SF creators is silly, unworthy, wasted (and I'll say that admiration of the creator and the creation is different than worship or idolatry). Recall that Harlan was already a writer BEFORE he got into SF. He got into the fan scene and fanzines to meet the authors and discuss writing. I mean, think about it. Somebody with his ego, going around goo-goo eyed and drooling over another writer?? NOT bloody likely.
To summarize my interpretation, in general:
- He appreciates fans who read, who enjoy the material, and who don't attack, but doesn't give 'em much thought or comment after that.
- He admires the effort and artistry of creative projects and is disappointed when other people don't. (and I'm sure there's an instance or two where he doesn't; hey, not every person is into every craft)
- He finds incredulous or even disdains fans who consider the creators their servants *OR* their gods, rather than writers and artists and designers, etc.
- He out-n-out loathes idiots who pull cheap stunts.
The Pegster
*Peter* ----- Wow.
I can dig HE's incredulity about the ray-guns. Remember, though, he's also incredulous that nobody's buying them. I mean, here's a good, decent, and honestly well-crafted product and there's no market for it because people would rather buy cheap crap.
Once again, I am reminded of the music business. Why the hell would anybody play jazz, classical, or avant-garde free music when the audience is so thin? 'Cause we love it, damn it, and we're gonna do it with dignity and honor even if nobody's buyin'. Yeah, that strikes some folks as crazy, especially if you have the talent to just sell out and pose as something you're not.
Peter: your story was a hoot!
Okay, I'm faster than I thought. It may also have to do with the fact that my brain is fried with upcoming midterms and revision has gone as far as I can reasonably take it. Its silly, its juvenile, its an allegory and a crocodile, but its done. Well, its done until I decide to go back and do some more revision. Enjoy!
www.netvista.net/~petero/webderland.html
is the address.
Let me know what you all think. Brutal honesty is appreciated.
Rick, if you want it, I offer it to Webderland free of charge. (I doubt I could get paid for it in a fanzine, let alone an honest mag.)
---Peter
Dammit Syzygy... now I have to change my story. Nah. I'll tell y'all what. I'll post the story on my website (yes I have one, although I haven't done anything with it in a LONG while.) I'll link a mail to on my name, and comments can be sent to me through there. only one person actually emailed me saying that they wanted a copy, so I'll do this for everyone.
Uh. what else.
Oh yeah. I'll have it posted by midnight, I'll give the address by then too.
Cheers!
---Peter
Jesu, Syzygy - I hope I never have to live any portion of MY life with someone like you watching over me and judging me. You're not the first person to fail to understand Harlan's particular method of appreciation of folks like the pewter raygun makers, and you won't be the last. It's fairly common for Harlan to shake his head and wonder why folks devote huge portions of their life to doing things like making rayguns or maintaining websites. I'm sorry if it fills you with self-righteous indignation, but he's just poking fun - he spends the majority of the appearance GLOWING over the guns, jeez, whattya want?
As for the stuff about fans -- Harlan has always been VERY appreciative and very positive about fandom. It's some of the FANS that get under his skin. Folks like our friend (maybe the user who posted under Shelly Draven a few years back, probably NOT) who posted the death rumor. Folks like the fan who poured a cup of warm vomit on a writer at a convention. Folks like the fan who told the Secret Service Harlan was planning on killing George Bush, or who order him all sorts of magazine subscriptions and mail-order items (billable to HIM). Harlan may have once been a starry-eyed fan, but he claims to have grown up since then. You don't like what he has to say about it, you try and walk a mile in his shoes.
I also find the fashion you choose to attack HE for the way he expresses his opinion a little hypocritical. You seem to be engaging in EXACTLY the kind of behavior you decry in him. Except, of course, that he has the courage to put his name behind what he has to say...
Scot: Harlan showed an obvious liking for the pewter rayguns. Or, to use the common vernacular, he 'busted a nut' over them. He thought they were absolutely amazing little products. But no matter how much he seemed to drool over them, his finished the commentary with a patronizing attitude toward the very fan mentality behind the raygun's origin.
Here is the commentary:
"I want to talk this week about the rare and wonderful world of...of...of...of...of fan projects. Fans put together--science fiction admirers and aficionados have always been known for putting together conventions. I mean, people will spend a year subverting their own lives (said with a laugh), losing their marriages, doing whatever they have to to put on a convention. You ask 'em why? and they sort of look at you like Night of the Living Dead and they say "I don't know, I just have to do it." (Said is a zombie-voice.)
Well, along that line, Richard Lilliblad--I hope I'm pronouncing that right--he makes raygun miniatures. They're Buck Rogers/Captain Video style rayguns. This one is called the Sonic Blaster, this one is the Imperial Disintegrator. And they're made out of pewter, and they're heavy...I mean, they've got some weight to them. (said like an awed boy in a toy store) And they're set in this beautiful box, with the...with the...with the...pseudo-velvet backing, or whatever that is. (said with a laugh) It's just an absolutely amazing little product.
They cost a hunnerd and fourty-nine bucks. Plus four bucks shipping and handling. I know that's a lot of money. Particularly today. But look at these--have you ever seen anything like this? They're like little jewels. Some Arab potentate back in the days of the Arabian Knights would have killed to have had these. (said as if having an orgasm.)
We're going to put up...we're going to put up the number. The...the...the company that makes it is called 'Whateverworks', which is a great name too. (said with genuine feeling) And the guy--this Richard Lilliblad--is a...is a...is a very nice guy.
Now here's the sad part...here's the sad part. There are only 3500 sets of these. You know how many he's sold? Twenty. Twenty. (said with sadness) When I showed these to Joe Stracinsky (sp?), from Babylon 5--the guy who created Babylon 5--Joe said "Must have!", "Got to have!" and went out and got one immediately.
Only a fan would do something like this. (said with a patronizing laugh) Put all this time and effort into an absolutely perfect little thing.
These are the kinds of projects that are done for no reason except that people really want to preserve this stuff. And, in some way, I think it's our obligation to keep these guys in business. (said rather grudgingly) Otherwise, you're gonna wind up with nothin' but fast food, and crappy clothing, and Borax furniture, and movies like Independence Day. And we really deserve a lot better than they, don't we? I knew you'd agree."
Now, while HE is obviously admiring of these little pewter pieces, he doesn't hide his amusement over the fact that some 'zombie' would actually create them in the first place.
Is this 'wow'-'I just don't get it'-knee jerk response some kind of act, or does he really not understand the desire to create something as wonderful as these rayguns. (I bought a set, by the way. And they are, indeed, quite stunning little miniatures.) If you ask me, making Rayguns is not an 'obsessive' effort, made by some obsessive fan. It's a show of creative drive and respect for the S.F. genre as a whole. And isn't that same 'show' something HE engages in every time he writes a story?
Or, should I believe his patronizing little attitude and think that only the writers and artists of the S.F. universe need be given attention?
Syzygy Namirran (not an obsessive 'fan'--just concerned that lesser craftsmen are getting their reputations tarnished for no reason.)
Pejatora... I mean, Peg::: The essay you are thinking of is "Xenogenesis" and it was actually in the OVER THE EDGE section of Edgeworks 1. A haunting essay if there ever was one. Which reminds me of a certain review I've been putting off...
Maggie::: You'll find out who Shasitzka is when I'm done. If the name hasn't given it away, the actions of that character will. Which reminds me. I forgot to mention Finder's character. Finder has been renamed The Keeper.
---Peter
Syzygy: one word on HE & SF fandom: XENOGENESIS
Maybe I'm misremembering, although it's unlikely: It seems that Ellison, when discussing the pewter rayguns (on a SF Buzz) was drooling quite a bit over the production, encouraging people to buy them, and so on. So, was he praising the guns with his praise, or damning them with the same? Or were his words twisted to fit an argument? Just asking.
Hey All!
I listened to Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" yesterday while packing/cleaning/celebrating the birth of my newest niece. I really liked it. So, now I own and like a piece of instrumental jazz other than the soundtrack for The Firm (an otherwise stupid movie). Branching out is good!
Shane! Thank you! I will have a fabulous time!
Peter: I am really looking forward to your story, but I still wonder who Shasitzka is.
You know, I have been looking for one of the HE comic books at all the relevant stores in town (OK, I haven't been to Uncle Hugo's yet, but I will) and I can't find anybody who's even heard of HE, let alone his comic book. This seems very wrong to me.
To everybody - if I don't get a chance to post tomorrow before my flight, have a great couple of weeks! I am going to try to post from La Reunion, but I am unsure of the reliability of the guertali system for web surfing. I know that my uncle gets email, but has some problems with web stuff, so we'll see!
Have fun!
Ignore trolls with ego problems.
Maggie!
*Syzygy* On the subject of HE and fandom - I thought it was fairly common knowledge that Harlan had run a fanzine way back when, which was really his introduction into publishing as an SF writer. May even have participated, organized, or otherwise been involved with conventions (pretty sure but not 100% positive).
What I know HE does not appreciate is SF fan obsession, their expectation of SF writers/artist/etc., and the belief that the practioners are answerable to the fans in any way. [webderfolks - didn't we have extensive discourse on the obligations of the writer a while ago??] These behaviours and beliefs are easily and overwhelmingly evident at conventions.
And of course when the fans' expectations or images aren't met, or are contradicted, well, there's plenty of weird ones out there who just disturbed enough to do stupid stuff. There's a lot of disrespectful fan behavior which is at best disappointing and at worst abominable. I was reading Edgeworks 1 (I think it was in An Edge in My Voice but my memory is really spotty) and there was a whole section on this where multiple authors sent him letters documenting instances of this.
Harlan just can't sympathize with the worship mindset. Given his extremely confident personality and strong ego (and that's saying it nicely folks) I'm not surprised he can't fathom it - he's always thought too highly of himself to worship others.
Would the TV appearances you reviewed fit with this explanation? Or were there other comments that were inconsistent with this?
Ta,
Peg
Yesterday I spent a few hours watching some of the television appearances that Harlan has made over the years. I have a number of video tapes filled with such esoterica.
In many of his interviews, reviews and commentaries, he makes flippant references to S.F. fans in general and the people who are responsible for hosting S.F. conventions. He says things such as "I don't know why they (fans) do it . . . . why they put so much effort into 'it' (like making pewter rayguns, or some other collectible merchandise) . . . personally, I've never understood it ('it' being people gathering to celebrate the literature of science fiction and fantasy). . . . " Etc. etc.
Never understood it? Puh-leez.
Are these comments about S.F. fans and convention organizors meant to sound 'inane'? Am I missing something?
I ask because, in his next breath, he says things such as, "I've been going to conventions since 1962 . . . you know who I heard speak? I heard (so-and-so) speak on (insert subject here). . . . there should be some kind of convention archive . . ." etc. etc.
So, obviously, he is a supporter of S.F. fandom and the whole convention 'mentality'. And he is constantly lauding the collecting of memorabelia, ranging from model airplanes to figures of Green Lantern to the latest DiFate compendium of S.F. art.
Is it really becoming' to sit in front of a camera and pretend the he doesn't understand why S.F. fans do what they do? Are we really supposed to believe that HE came bursting forth from the head of Zeus and crashlanded into the S.F. field without so much as first having attended an S.F. convention, where, most likely, he looked around with the eyes of a smitten fan? Just like all the rest of us . . .
Talk about posturing. Yeesh.
Syzygy Namirran
MAGGIE: Have a safe and fun trip!
Hello everyone. I have to say something here, because it matters to me, and it's possible it will matter to some of you. If not, I still think most of you will understand. Some one really special has died and today was his memorial. His name was Adam Seligman. I remember him as a friend, a serious HE reader, and a star trek fan. Some of you may know him that way. Others may know him as a writer, a jazz critic, a musician. He is best known as an activist for people like himself, with Tourette's Syndrome. Adam was a crucial part of getting legislation passed regarding the development of orphan drugs for treatment of extremely rare disorders like his. He was an ambassador, connecting people, warmly explaining about Tourette's and letting his personal incandescence shine through all his painful and unsettling tics. Everything about Adam was authentic. His humor and talent, his personal anguish, his love for life--all these came out in a way that touched people and made them better. He died in his sleep four weeks ago today, at the age of 37. If any of you knew him through the board or any other way and wish to contact me, please do so. Anyone interested in Tourette's Syndrome, do the same, and I can get you started. Thanks for letting me post this speech here. I needed to do something to acknowledge what this man meant to our world. Happy Trails. Wylie
I was surfing (well, more like belly-boarding) the Net this week and saw a reference crediting Harlan Ellison with coining the term "FAX"--anybody got particulars on this one? -- Billy D.
Here's a quicky... A friend of mine has been trying to turn me onto japanese animation for a while. Most of what I have seen has been complete crap worth less than the video it is recorded on. However, a couple of series have actually had some intellegent stories and rather competent, bordering on artful, direction. One of these series is called Neon Genesis Evangelion. To cut a long story short, the last episode of the series is titled "The Beast that Shouted 'I' at the Heart of the World"... Makes one pause for thought...
---Peter (who'll stop monopolizing this board on weekends)
Wow... I just spent some time reading the HE newsgroup... wow. That place is frightening. I'm scared to post there for fear of being attacked by the rabid wolverines who have usurped the NG. Not that I'd have anything to add to that board as most of it seems to be a flame war between four or five different egos.
Speaking of trolls. I've finished the first draft of my story and am now entering revision. The ending is going to take a lot of work (I threw in the Draven post and am now trying to work out an ending using it.) plus I've got some semantics to work out and the last page or so is a bit weak language wise. I'll keep everyone updated on its progress.
---Peter
huh... Saw the post, thought it was probably a fake, checked the news wires - nada, *shrugged*, and dismissed it.. Boy!! Am I gonna feel guilty when one of those posts turns out to be true!
Sorry that I had to show my ugly side in my last post. Only, that particular bomb was dropped on me while I was high on cough medicine. I'm still loaded on the stuff. In fact, this whole flu experience has inspired me to write an essay "Twenty reasons why I don't take drugs." reason number 20: too expensive a habit. reason number 1: I'm already nucking futs when I'm sober, drugged I'd be downright terrifying.
---Peter
*Finder* - Actually, I got a different answer from Rick. I had sent an email query on that sickening post, and the reply from Rick essentially said that I shouldn't believe/trust anything Shelley Draven said. (I'm afraid I deleted the email already or I would directly quote it). In any case, I think we can just all be relieved it's not true and chalk up to mystery whether it was Shelley or some other twerp who posted it.
Peg
Before we fire up the torches and storm the castle: in checking the BB archives, you'll find a Shelley Draven (Driddle@cdc.net) was a regular poster to these parts in 1995-96. She was affable, pleasant, and even put together a fan poll for the visitors to the site. After reading her old posts (I never personally interacted with her), I would doubt very strongly this post came from her. First, given the familiarity with Rick and the regulars of the day, she wouldn't have offered such a cold, explority post. This message is designed to be leading, as tossed-off as "What did you think of 'Elizabeth'?" but designed to incite and inflame. The Shelley Draven of old would probably have asked Rick, expressed some feeling - not this. Not as written. Second, the e-mail address is a botch. Shelley Draven was driddle@cdc.NET. CDC.NET is a Chattanooga area internet provider. CDC.COM is a technological services company, based in St. Paul - a corporate entity. Whoever perpetrated this committed a very stupid mental error: they blew the research. And when you blow the research, you're asking for me to do some checking. I suspect someone looking to perpetrate mayhem did a little digging, found a viable mask to hide behind, and decided to play "Let's see what happens." And I have my suspicions... Finder
Wow. I haven't felt this compelled to violence in a long time. I have this desire to commit horrible acts against Draven's person. Nevermind the unoriginality of his name (how many James O'Barr fans out there find it necessary to use than pseudonym?) I really wish to inflict painfully prolonged bodily harm upon him. And not just because he is a prick with a penchant for shouting fire in a crowded theater, but simply because he is a prick who feels compelled to solicit attention from people in order to fulfill some sick narcisistic impulse. He is the type of person who would go on a murdering spree simply to become famous. I believe that the doctors made a mistake when they threw out the baby and kept the afterbirth that is now known here as draven. And right now, I believe that an abortion is still not out of the question.
I'm pissed. But that's an understatement, isn't it?
---Peter
It's pissed on my night, too, Barney; funny, isn't it, how you hear (read) something that can't be true, is obviously false, but still bothers you deeply? This is a prime example. Let's all hope that this flaming piece of monkeyshit gets hit by a car and is kept from reproducing.
from my mailbox -
Care to elaborate or introduce yourself, you sick little monkeyf*ck?
Regards,
Barney Dannelke
Original-Recipient: rfc822;driddle@cdc.com
Final-Recipient: rfc822;driddle@cdc.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Your message was not delivered to the following recipients:
Draven
come out come out whereever you are...
I SO want to meet you.
Ummm... Rick?
I'd phone but I don't have your #.
I have to assume the previous post is bullshit but what concerns me is what can we do about this. This sniper has ruined my Friday night - I'd certainly like to return the favor.
Just wondered how everyone was taking the news about Harlan's death last night?
Yo, Mags. I think I know the kd lang of which you speak and it was heavenly. We'll see if Best Buy carries Vonda Shepperd--you've convinced me I need to give her a try. Later. Wylie
Wylie - If you want great torch, kd lang's cd of a couple of years ago remains one of my all time favorites. I do a few torch songs, but tend more towards ballads (likely all that early reading of the poetry of Poe! ;)). I really recommend Vonda Shepherd. I have three of her albums (including the Ally McBeal one, which is just great) now and I love all of them. Marcia Ball is a lot of fun, but she's more Cajun meets the blues. I just got a brand new remastered Billy Holiday album. I haven't had much time to listen to it - trip preparations, don't you know, but it sounds wonderful so far. Have fun shopping!
Why should Nietzsche be responsible for anything that boneheaded hatemongers (Heidegger and his cohorts, Nazis, Fascists, Social Darwinists, Neo-Nazi Skinheads, et. al.) may have misinferred from his work? One must remember that Nietzsche was a highly moral thinker (a classicist and philologist, to boot!), and regarded many of the so-called modern social movements with abject disdain. To Freddy, Naziism would have been viewed as merely the end result of an abominable 'herd-cathexis' (to coin a brand new Nietzeudian phrase--no offense to Freud). Also, Nietzsche's entire philosophy is grown from the petrie dish of a solitary ego (hency his brief, but deep, infatuation with Schopenhauer at an early age) making it easy prey for appropriation by social groups.
As far as dramatization of Nietzsche is concerned, a few titles come to mind: Crime and Punishment (Dostoevsky), Michelsson's Ghosts and elements of Grendel (John Gardner), Prince Andrei (from War and Peace), Ivan (from Brothers Karamazov), The Prince (Machiavelli), The Magus (John Fowles), Elements of Boccacio's Decameron, Nausea (Sartre) . . .et. al. All of these dramatize some aspects of Nietzschean ideology, especially Crime and Punishment, which uses Napolean Bonapart as an exemplar of the so-called 'ubermensch', the identity of strength and 'will to power' that Raskolnikov tries (and fails) to assume.
And don't even get me started on Ayn Rand, that 19th century grave-robber . . . or Berkeley . .. trust an Irishman to have God in his head . . . .
Sorry to be butting in again. Just my $.02
Syzygy Namirran
::: sinking back into the shadows :::
Barney: Thanks for your input. I'm fairly familiar with Schopenhauer, but I'll have to check out good ol' Thom. Meanwhile, I'll keep on running around and explaining to indignant friends that no, Nietzsche was only SORT OF responsible for mass genocide . . .
Maggie: I applaud you having something better to do with philosophy. I came to the realization a long time ago that philosophers have nothing to do but sit around and flip each other the bird. If you ever decide to dip into some female philosophers, though, you might try Mary Wollstonecraft. You're thinking of Berkeley with the in-god's-head thing, by the way, and I'm surprised you remember it with such clarity. I mean, I spent massive amounts of time studying the man's philosophy, and I keep on forgetting he's a bishop . . .
Peter: May I say, with utmost affection and with a sort of manly punch-in-the-arm-buddy-kidding air, that you're a great big freak.
sorry about the double post--my server disconnects every few minutes for some reason and after dialing in again I'm never sure if my stuff got sent.
Maggie! Etta James is one of my favorites! Do you sing torch songs? Ma mere is taking me music shopping for my birthday and if you could recommend something really powerful and torchy I would be in your debt. Anyone else can jump in, too. Gotta go--my friend is trying to have a baby today and I need to explain that one more day would make it my birthday, and that would be so cool...Wylie
Maggie! Etta James is one of my favorites! Do you sing torch songs? Ma mere is taking me music shopping for my birthday and if you could recommend something really powerful and torchy I would be in your debt. Anyone else can jump in, too. Gotta go--my friend is trying to have a baby today and I need to explain that one more day would make it my birthday, and that would be so cool...Wylie
Peter: - Is Shasitzka Finder? I too await your story with bated breath!
Peg! You're back in the tundra! I am so excited for your trip! I grew up with a family where the father was native Hawaiian (with a name like Kealamakia, what else could he be!)and they went to visit family every summer. I can personally recommend candy turtles made with macadamia nuts. Also, next Tuesday at 9p (very first international excursion. Please forgive the overwhelming excitement!!!) I am going to an island in the Indian ocean called La Reunion. It is a territory of France, so I will, of course, have to spend a week in Paris first! Anyway, Reunion is a volcanic island like Hawaii. They even have a currently erupting volcano that they bill as being "Hawaiian" - their website is clearly English as a 2nd language using a web based translator - want to trade volcanic rocks or postcards or something? I'm also going to spend time in Mont Martre when I am in Paris. One of the goals for that trip is a HE book in French. Should be interesting.
As to the jazz thread - I'm a singer. Since I learned to talk, actually. So, I have very little to contribute, unless you want to talk about Lady Day or Etta or kd lang or the fabulous Vonda Shepherd, I have little to offer. I also have very little memory devoted to song titles, but give a few lines/bars of the chorus and I can probably sing you the whole thing.
Otto - when I was in college, I took an intro to philosophy class. When we got to the question of the tree making any sound when it falls if there isn't anybody to hear it, I hit a really big road bump. There was some English bishop (his name escapes me) who said that no, the tree didn't make any sound if there wasn't anybody to hear it. Then, having painted himself into a corner so to speak, he said that everything existed all the time though, because god was always watching. This created the indelible image in my mind of god, strapped into the omnipotence chair (oh shades of Tolkien, I know), with his eyes pinned open so that he couldn't even blink. I am just overwhelmed with the idea that philosophy is generally some completely pointless ego trip - I also get stuck on the idea that none of the philosophers listed in my course book were female. All I can think is that women have better things to do. Sorry.
Sue - hi to you too!
Watch for a post from the Indian ocean sometime in about 2 weeks!
Maggie, soon to be on the road!
PETER: how come I'm the only one with a "stage moniker" that sounds like a "serious" tropical disease (or, a side dish of really hinky caribbean food)? I wait for yer story wit bated breath, mon. Out here, DTS
Barney::: Hey I resemble that remark!... oh wait. What's wrong with living near a fault line. I've lived near one all my life!
I just know, that when I die (many decades from now) the earth will bury me itself.
Cheers!
---Peter
Peggy - LOL! - yup. Maybe I should have specified I was thinking of all the folks who drop by to have us do their homework/research for them when I made that comment to Rick.. ;-)
I almost forgot... 6 months late, the answer to the other two questions.
Harlan said if he wasn't a writer, he'd love to run a fixit shop, or be a plumber or electrician or something. He felt they actually made a difference in peoples day to day lives. Plus he just hates that everything breaks and we're expected to replace it. Totally ludicrous.
By our conversation, HE though the worst quality people could possess was arrogant ignorance. The best was ethics. I asked him to explain the second, and he went on to say someone with the courage to act on their belief when it counts. He used Ralph Nader as an example. I know, it's not exactly clear, I still struggle with the real meaning now and then....
All the misc. bits I've neglected to post in the last few weeks... (sorry for any repeats) Lessee
- Thanks for the condolences for my grandmother's passing. She was a great lady, and one of the best compliments I get from relatives is they think I'm like her. While a sad event, it was great to see some of my east coast relatives, most of whom I have not seen in over 20 years. It's amazing what a difference it is to meet someone when you are both children, then meet again 20 years later when you are both adults. Before they were just relatives, now they are actually people! The other good thing was that I inherited her wedding rings, which will give me something special to always remember her by.
- Did I mention the hub and I are going to Hawaii and Hong Kong on vacation? *yippee skippee* We leave in week, 5 nights HW, 5 nights HK. Any special requests??
- Pejatora? Does that make me a maiden who inspired a great leader to lie to his people? oh, no, wait, that would be Purjatora... *giggle* Sure, write me in. When & where else would I ever get the honor of being a character in a story!
- On the subject of Webderland being a home and family, just remember that families come with good and bad. They usually have a few members that the rest would prefer to disown, or at least bar from the reunion picnic. But they are still family and are still loved or perhaps merely tolerated, for any or all faults they may possess or acts they commit which garner disapproval. Our family bloodline is the interest in HE, and we have just a colorful lineup of characters in our tree as any real family. We've got wisdom and wise-ass, loving and fun-loving, the strong family core and the distant relatives. And lurkers are the ones who never call home. *smirk*
hhmmm, lessee... taken in the order of my vague recollection..
Otto - no need to appologize.. I took two aspirin, and a nap - the headache went away.. ;-)
Barney - *giggle* hee hee *snort* giggle... *hug* I do love your personal twist on things..
Peter - Suluustra? wow! I feel like an Asian Old One of minor significance... ;-) Have at it, Peter - I can hardly wait to read the story..
Wylie, Peg, and Maggie - hurray! Good to see you - brought back a little stability to the Board... and fun.. ;-)
DOC and Keegan - *HUG* yeah - it is like "home" for "family".. so **RICK** can't ya put a sign on the door that says "No Soliciting".. dang traveling salesmen always interrupting when we're having fun, peddling junk we don't wanna buy..
Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
***Peter*** With a name like Barnennian I'm either a Phantom Zone menace exiled by the good people from my home planet of Krypton or the hunchbacked nephew of Biggus Dickus from Python's "The Life of Brian". Wait, I've got it - the barnennian is the unit of time after the millennium when we all realize what a soft news filler shuck and jive the Y2K problem was and go back about our business. Poor Nicole has been reduced to something you chew to rid yourself of an addiction. And Doc, well, [this next part is to be read in the voice of the late great Sam Kinnison] - HOW WISE IS DOC IF HE'S LIVIN'NEAR A FAULT LINE!!?? Oh Oh OOHHHHHH!!!! In any event, if I am in this bit of "fiction" I insist on a Boris cover depicting me and my robot side kick Andy [you knew I had a robot sidekick, right?] with spot illustrations by the horribly reanimated corpse of Virgil Finlay. I can see it so clearly now... "Barnennian on the Planet of the Armenian Chess Players" the stunning sequel to "Barnennian in the Caves of Poughkeepsie". OK, who wants to be wrapped around my thigh, hoping I'll protect them? Doc, put your hand down... God, I love coffee.
Peter, you crack me up. I can't wait to read your story. And by the way, the word "would" always looks funny to me. Anyone know the origin of it?
DOC: I owe you dinner. When I come to the city, or if you find yourself up here in wine country, you will be my guest so I can shower you with gratitude. How do you feel about Thai food? XXXOOO. EVERYONE: Hi! He actually signed off, I can't believe it. If this whole business had actually been a test, like Namirran (sp?) claimed, you all aced it with tact, assertiveness, and even kindness. Sorry I had to back out like that, I couln't have found a healthy way to stay in the fray. I learned a lot from all of you though, and I will never be chased off this or any other board again. Thank you! I'd love to take you ALL out for thai food. Wouldn't that be a kick? What if there was an HE convention (like to hammer out that HE award I believe Barney brought up) and we all really did get to hook up? Am I getting too sentimental? Maybe I'll just do anything to increase my annual intake of curry, deep fried tarrow root and thai iced tea. Love you guys! I'll check in tomorrow. Wylie
I forgot a couple of names.
The Wily One - wylie of course
Suluustra - Sue
Pejatora - Peg
and I'm not sure if I'm missing anyone else... I forgot to put these up because I haven't gotten to their entrances.
---Peter (cheers!)
Hey guys. I thought I'd let you know that I'm working on a new short story (concurrent with the revision of my last). Only, this one is loosely based on the troll activities on this board. Although I won't make any definite claims about you Syzygy, I will try to present your activities as I see them in as fair a manner as I can. I'm trying not to use anybody's posting name. I've altered most of them. Anybody who wants to see it after I'm done should email me. I'm going to donate it to the website afterward as this is hardly just my story. This really is everyone's story. Here are a list of the names I've "corrupted"
We have...
Wyatar, the Webdermeister - Rick
Nicolotta - Nicole
De Tseri Sman - DTS
Barnennian - Barney
Ottovian - Otto
Padraig - me
Shasitzka - (I dare people to guess)
and Doc, the wise man of the west - Doc
Sorry Doc, it was all I could come up with.
and Syzygy, if you're still out there, I'd like to use your post name as is. It seems to fit so well with the rest of my characters, and it is important for how I want to portray the character of Syzygy. You said yourself, it represents how you feel you are in relation to the rest of us.
So as I said. This is a not for profit story that I would like to donate to the site, and if anyone has any objections to being in it, I will hasten to remove you post haste. (even faster if need be)
---Peter (he who gets halfway through a story before realizing that he should seek approval from those he seeks to write about. I wouldn't want to inadvertantly piss someone off)
*** Otto *** Oh what the hell, I'll bite. I don't think an old German like FN does much to inform Harlan's world view. Probably the cornerstone would be Twain's "Letters From the Earth", which, being published around 1966, I think would have concretized some things Harlan might have been wrestling with at that time. It certainly makes a nice backdrop for something like "The Deathbird" Regarding Nietzsche's reaction to this century, I suppose he 'might' have found some amusing bits in Ayn Rand, but her being a woman and all would have gotten her written off pretty quick. I don't think he could have stomached all of the secular humanism and free floating feel good spirituality encountered in Western culture these days, but then, neither can I. If your reading German egoists, don't miss Shoppenhauer [sp?], another fun guy with no love for women. Reflections of both of their world views can be found in the short fiction of Thom Jones, particularly the collection "The Pugilist At Rest". This is not so off topic as you might think as this fellows earliest work appeared in the same issue of the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction as "The Deathbird". Small world. There is definitely short story potential in locking Jones, FN, and Shopenhauer in a room with Carlyle and having them discuss their relations with women. Joanna Russ could write the introduction. Cold Oatmeal for Everybody! A little Carlyle humor there. Anybody want to sell me a copy of Disch's "Neighboring Lives"? PS. I like women just fine.
For all yez intellectual wannabees (like myself) out there: I've been re-wading through some Nietzsche lately, if only because I need to be reminded what ego truly is, and have been bothering people with speculations about the views of this arrogant Aryan atheist. One of the people who was so unlucky as to have been thusly approached challenged me in turn by asking if there was any sort of modern view of religion, excluding atheism, that Nietzsche would approve of, in particular, any literary examples. I started thinking (or as close as I can get to it, anyway).
Now, for those of you familiar with good ol' Fritz N., do you think I am justified in using HE's "The Region Between" and "The Deathbird" as examples of such? I realize that many will consider the latter a no-brainer, seeing as it contains a passage of "Also Sprach Zarathustra," but I think there might be some problems inherent in the reliance of mankind upon the superior, alien creature (Dira) to redeem itself. "The Region Between" appears to be closer to Nietzsche's views of man saving himself, with God thrown in for emphasis, but it's more of a "last man" than "Ubermensch" story, really. Any takers?
And I'm very, very, sorry if this does nothing besides bore people out of their skulls. Since the last time I posted, I ended up sparking a month-long debate about animal cruelty and homophobia, I thought I'd better err on the side of boredom this time.