Phew! No wonder I don't hang out here s'much these days...
THE MATRIX was a lotta fun, nothing more than it was supposed to be. IDLE HANDS is much better than one would think -- black comedy in the spirit of Roger Corman's BUCKET OF BLOOD and LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS. See it at once!
Then there's THE MUMMY. They took a classic creepy film and turned it into an $80 million 1950s adventure flick, leaving Brendan Fraser with the Cornell Wilde role. For what it is, it was okay; but it shoulda been more; like, scary, maybe?
My pal is alive and safe and back in SF. My cousin, Luann, passed away last Saturday, after a 2-year battle with cancer; so there's as much relief as grief; unfortunately, it hit my uncle really REALLY hard -- he's 76 and just lost his youngest child. Thanks, Shane, for your kind words.
BUCK -- You're down, on the "poopyhead" thing. I'm surprised, though, that Rick didn't threaten to turn this whole board right around and drive straight back. Still, speaking as a "cracker" (from Oklahoma and Texas?!?), I have to agree with you -- Boo, Hess.
Cheers, Doc
JIM: Sleeping Beauty, yeah I think I've heard of it somewhere, maybe. But didn't we get a "hint" right up front that only a prince's kiss could bring her back (like maybe when the witch said, "I'm putting you to sleep, and only the kiss of a prince will wake you")? In MATRIX, it can out of nowhere. -- Billy D.
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 10:52:59 (CDT)
Something is amiss Obi Wan. . .just checked in with a source at the local Toys-R-Us that had stocked big on the STAR WARS stuff and am told it ain't moving off the shelves as expected. Hmmmm. . .could it be The Force (Lucas) forced it too far? Until next time. . .
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 10:50:16 (CDT)
RE: Why kiss a 'dead' guy? Ever hear of a story called "Sleeping Beauty" where the prince's kiss brings back Sleeping Beauty? Since THE MATRIX mangaes to shovel, squeeze, and shoehorn just about every other story into its narrative this is just another example. But ya gotta love the ALICE IN WONDERLAND digs here. Until next time. . .
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Saturday, May 15, 1999 at 10:47:32 (CDT)
Shane: RE: Jack in? I had to wonder, as the storyline took a nosedive if it was really the opposite of jacking in. (Cyberpun of sorts intended.) Until next time. . .
All the SW:The Phantom Menace frothing seems like a bit much, but part of me does understand it. Years ago, when Star Trek III was coming out, I decided I just HAD to see it on opening day. This was before the days when you could pre-purchase tickets for movies (at least in my neighborhood), so I ended up waiting on line outside the theater for three hours to see it. And it was worth it, because I had a great time. Everyone that was there really, really wanted to see it, so the atmosphere had an intensity and enthusiasm unlike anything I've experienced since. It definitely added to my enjoyment of the movie. Although today's Star Wars fans, who wait on line for a week for tickets, make me look like an amateur!
As for the merchandising, I have nothing good to say about it. I used to collect science fiction memorabilia, but it's just not fun any more. Part of the fun used to be in "the hunt", just trying to find neat things. But now everywhere you turn around you find something with Star Trek, Star Wars etc plastered on it. Not to mention, I would have to spend my whole year's expendable income to keep up with the stuff. Wow, don't I sound like a cranky old fart!
In the HE-related area, my pictures from ICON18 can be seen on the web starting at http://obelix.rutgers.edu/pub/lreed/icon18_pics.html for anyone who is interested. It wasn't one of my better photographic outings, but they are good for few grins.
Charli - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 07:48:24 (CDT)
The latest Locus reports that HE recently sent out $20k in royalties for the Italian version of Dang. Vis.. HE is quoted, "pretty good for a 32 year old book!".
keegan - Friday, May 14, 1999 at 00:30:51 (CDT)
Insomniac tonight.....
Frankly, I'm more excited about HE and Penn Gillette on the same PI than I am about the new SW movie. I saw the original Star Wars at the drive-in which made it double hip 'cause all that space action looked like it was happening in the sky in front of me. Wish there was a drive-in left around here. They've all been turned into flea markets or trailer parks.
Still one left in Maine last I was there.
My husband is a major Star Wars fan, but I think we, too, will wait for the hoopla to die down. Probably something to do on some rainy summer weekend.
re: Star Wars:TPM - I've got tickets for the midnight premiere out here next week. While I'm as burnt out on the hype as Shane - I have had major plot points given away in the stupidest places - I learned something the other day about the movie I would have preferred to not know simply because I saw a t-shirt on a kid in a parking lot - I've had other stuff ruined by making the mistake of picking up the new Tom Waits at the local Borders [end caps and point of purchase displays are tools of the devil, I say] Well, the above paragraph is a mess but I ain't a' fixin' it. The point I was going to make, before I got lost in run on sentence land, is that going to the midnight show is something I wouldn't miss. It'll be like the casting call at a Fellini film. If it sucks - even better! It's what this culture deserves. If they all keep going to see it for the rest of the summer it's more space on the local bike paths and at the gym for me. "Force this!" he exclaimed, grabbing his light saber...
Peter - Thursday, May 13, 1999 at 16:21:44 (CDT)
Oh yeah, I'm also avoiding the theater for the first month so as not to run into the "fandom menace"
---Peter
You almost have to admire the sheer beauty of how Star Wars is going to succeed. I have no doubt that this first movie will be as shallow and lifeless as the original (I loved it as a kid, but then I grew up and it grew boring.) I hope that the other two will have a little more meat to them (I'm expecting that the third movie will have to end on a down note, which I'm actually looking forward to---I'm sick, aren't I?) but I still have to admire this first movie.
This movie will suceed for two reasons. The first month or so will most likely be filled with the die-hard camp for two years to buy tickets fans. They'll generate most of the early revenue which will keep it up top. then, as the hype slowly starts to die away, the rest of us, the ones who didn't feel like forsaking out lives, our loves, and our jobs for a lousy movie, will feel safe in venturing to the theater once more. We, and the few stragglers who are in the "who can watch phantom menace the most times" competition will also push the Star Wars revenues up into the stratosphere. Therefore, Star Wars will succeed, even if it turns out to be complete and utter dreck.
---Peter
On SW:TPM - Personally, I plan to wait a couple of weeks, then go to catch a mid-week matinee, preferably at a time when all the kiddies are still in school. Some folks are really excited about going to the opened weekend, etc., but I find nothing ruins my movie experience so quickly as to be stuck in an overcrowded noisy theater surrounded by small shrieking children, having my seat kicked from behind me and me stuck sitting someone who will inevitably block my vision (hey, I'm short, so sue me).
Now, I remember seeing both Star Wars and Star Trek, either on the opening or shortly after, as a child (10 - 13 year old range). I remember the theater being full, but it was a mixture of adults and kids. And I recall everyone being so captivated by the flick that there were no side conversations, no shrieking, no kicking of the seat was going on. There were the fun elements of the crowd booing and cheering. (BTW - noticed the same thing at the MATRIX, both kids and adults were spellbound). However, I don't expect that with this Star Wars flick. Call me cynicized, but with all the hype and merchandising and kids being already exposed to technical marvels and such, I don't think the same atmosphere will prevail. And sad to say, the few articles I've read about the previews weren't completely flattering about the movie, so I don't think hard-to-please audiences with high expectations will be so easily captivated.
Wow. That was a lot more than I intended to say. Guess I derserve my nicknames... Peg
DTS
SHANE: Not even "Titanic" had this much hype going for it. My local paper (as have, I'm sure, dozens of others across the country) reported today (in a small story, true, and in the third section) that all area movie theaters sold out of tickets for the debut showing of "The Phantom Menace" and had already begun selling out shows that follow on the days after May 19th (some folks were already buying for the following week). What's more, my daughter and I went to see a movie after school yesterday ("The Mummy," a terrifically fun, no-brainer, action/adventure which we both loved) and some guy rushed up to me when I unknowingly walked up to one of the designated "Star Wars" only lines and asked (in a voice shaking with hyperventilation), "Are You gonna sell those tickets later? Huh, huh?" I just shrugged him off, figuring that he'd had one too many coffees or to much speed. Only later, after being directed to the right (single) line (which was selling tickets for that days shows while the other four handled the "Star Wars" sales) did I realize what he was going on about. And when I stopped at a local toy store to buy some action figures for my daughter's birthday (she's a real tomboy, loves all kinds of toys), the clerk told me that the didn't have any "Darth Maul" figures left because it was a "hot item" (some stores don't have ANY of the figures left), and that it was already selling for $50.00 on the local (Midwestern)collectors market. I've seen guys that had to be at least twenty (and sometimes closer to 30) buying these things -- I'm all for collecting, but when ya can't even get something for your kid's birthday -- sheesh! Am I sick of the hype? Absolutely. Will I see the movie? Yeah...but I think I'll wait until July or August, when all of the fruitcakes and Lucas-junkies have been satiated. Man, and people call ME crazy. Out here, DTS.
You know folks, I've reached Hype Overload and it's made me cynical. STAR WARS: THE PHANTOM MENACE has so overwhelmed every area of my life, so saturated my senses that I'm loath to stand in line to see this film. Not since TITANIC have I experienced such a feeling of malaise and ambivalance toward a film. It saddens me. I remember that charge I felt when I first watched the saga of Luke Skywalker and his friends unfold on the screen of the Cine Capri Theatre, the sound enveloping me and lifting me into another world. Now, I see Darth Maul toys everywhere. I take note that the SW:TPM subscription issue of TV GUIDE is the least desirable of the four covers that TV GUIDE is hawking to collectors...and why is a movie on the cover of TV GUIDE? Yeah, I'm saturated and cynical, how about you?
Bill Dennis - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 22:21:23 (CDT)
TODD: Gotta disagree with you on the voting thing. Just because something "seems more logical" doesn't make it true. Do you have data to back up that claim, as you accuse people holding my position of lacking? For me, when it comes to human nature, I'd say being logical is a strike against your argument. I know a guy, age 75, who has never voted in his life because "it doesn't matter, they're all crooks anyway"--which would at first glance lend credence to your position. Yet this same man has always lived a comfortable life, been free to do and go as he pleased, etc. I'd bet my fortune (and believe me, I'd miss that $3.58 something awful if I'm wrong) that if a politician legislated something that affected this guy directly--like taking away his land or wiping out his bank account--he'd be the first one in line at the next election to vote the bastard out of office. -- Billy D.
Bill Dennis - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 22:03:51 (CDT)
P.S. on the Matrix: SPOILER WARNING -- SPOILER WARNING -- why could her kiss bring a dead guy back to life? Did I miss something? -- Billy D.
Bill Dennis - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 22:01:52 (CDT)
Re: Matrix--great special effects, lousy movie. In addition to the earlier question, I also wondered how they could be jacking into the matrix from their ship with no physical connect. They must have been microwaving or radioing in somehow, so why couldn't these ultrasmart machines just track that back to the humans' ship? -- Billy D.
POTENTIAL MATRIX SPOILER...Shane - Here's a theory. The traitor contacts an Agent while jacked in. He offers to turn coat, but wants to set up a meeting to discuss terms. Also, jacking in solo is problematic. The Agents designed and built the system. They give him information that let's him jack in more conveniently, and guide him in and out of the system. He's their link to the real prize, so they won't screw him over. Everyone on the ship is a techie to some degree, and I'm sure Tank isn't the only one who knows how to work the equipment. Questions? Comments?
Mitch?
Chris Philly, PA - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 20:19:44 (CDT)
Thanks for the news update today, Rick.
Today's me old birthday and I couldn't ask for more than to find out that both Harlan Ellison and Penn Gillette are going to be on the same episode of PI. Talk about a dream come true.
But why waste those two on the Internet. How can you have two die-hard, outspoken atheists like that in one place and not talk religion? Man, talk about a golden opportunity. If there's anyone who is able to flay the skin off a religious whacko better than HE it just might be Penn.
That is not meant to imply that anyone who is religious is whacko or, indeed, anything close to it. That's just meant to be about, well, religious whackos. We've all seen a few of 'em. :)
-chris
CHARLIE: The information that I got off of the SCI-FI Channel web site last month stated that the History Channel would be showing "The truth about science fiction" episode on June 8th.
Speaking of THE MATRIX, can anyone tell me how the traitor was able to "jack into" the machine world without the help of someone else on-board the ship or without them detecting what he was up to?
I'll start this off by saying I'm a pretty easy-to-please movie goer, so my demands aren't as high as some folks' may be. Second, I've mentioned certain aspects of the film though I've tried to do it in such a way as to not drop spoilers. Apologies if that fails here.
My husband and I loved the Matrix. First, it was just grand entertainment; fun FX; major eye candy that kept us riveted for the length of the flick. Second, while the major themes - what is reality, for instance - aren't new, I though the treatment they got was somewhat innovative compared to most other SF movies (not novels or stories, but movies). And those things made some of the other pitfalls more forgiveable to me - like the less-than-thorough character development; the "love interest" aspect which I thought had no roots at all; etc.
As a side note, a friend of mine said that the story mimics the Gospel of Luke in the Bible. Interesting thought, though I haven't checked to see how closely the movie tracks the literature. There were definitely themes in the movie that parallel the story of Christ (though I do not presume to say that was the *intent*, just that they do) - a character who is mankinds's savior; rebirth into a new life; a Judas character; a John the Baptist, searching for the savior; and others.
I'd be interested to hear more about what folks thought of the movie, the themes, the treatments, parallels, etc.
And a last comment. My husband I reflected after the movie and decided that - there was little if any nudity and no sex; little if any foul language; and almost no gratuitous violence. That is to say, the violence was all consistent with the plot, and there were no instances of violence being performed for the sake of having the audience hate the bad guy, i.e., in support of a vengeance theme.
Cheers......Peg
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 12:29:13 (CDT)
Okay, one last sweep and then back to HARLAN ELLISON. Let's get something clarified here. I don't care one what you believe, why you believe it, whatever. I could care less if you worship that moldering cucumber that hides in the dark in the linen closet. You can do or believe whatever. Really. But when you start shoveling your beliefs down others throats (mine, for example), when you do this posturing number whereby you present yourself as being better than another because your satellite dish is smaller or bigger than theirs, when you start screwing with my life because your life MAY be screwed, then I get cranky. And rightly so. I don't care a rat's toot if you hide behind a handle or not. That you may do so causes my ever hyperactive imagination to start running in overdrive as to WHY. Are you, maybe, oh, I don't know: Thomas Pynchon out for a romp in cyberspace, collecting material for your next novel? If you are, drop me a line. I have a question or two for you. Are you, maybe, Stephen King, out to check out Harlan's web site to see if his site is more popular than the King site? That you choose to hide behind a handle implies to me you have something to hide. Good or bad you ARE hiding something. SHARE. Geez. Now. Back to Harlan Ellison. But reaching a bit to get to THE MATRIX. Interesting movie, I must say. It's right up there with BLADE RUNNER in that you have to watch it more than once to get it all, and even then you don't. You wanna goose somebody's pocketbook this summer? Forego STAR WARTS, er, WARS and go see THE MATRIX again. And again. 'Nuff said this time around. Until next time. . .
Peter - Wednesday, May 12, 1999 at 07:27:30 (CDT)
Okay, I have to come in defense of anime on this one (simply because I know that gross generalizations based on individual cases are dangerous). While I will admit that most of it is crap, or "porn for fanboys who only like to look at animated breasts," as Paul Riddell puts it, there are a few shining examples of what a good and even great animation should be. Just like the other "genres" of entertainment, there are always going to be examples of things which shine above the crap. I suggest taking a look at "Key the Metal Idol" and "Neon Genesis Evangelion" to see that there is a lot more ambition in the world of anime than cartoon porn and kiddie fluff, which if you think about it, is what a lot of american animation is as well.
---Peter(awake at six in the morning and it's not even finals yet)
That's "live action" anime, Chris. I don't care for japanese anime myself. Had to pull a title off the shelves a few years ago, it had 16 rape scenes in it (according to the staff). Yuck.
Chris Philly, PA - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 13:29:52 (CDT)
Wylie, I bought Happiness on DVD from Amazon. Ya gotta love Amazon, don't ya? They have everything and they have it cheap and you get the stuff within 2 days, usually. And if you happened to buy any AMZN stock, you can afford to buy from them. :)
Happiness is definitely sick. The usual gang of morons who didn't bother to watch it mistakenly labelled it a "pro-pedophilia" movie which is absurd. What it does is depict one of the characters as he is - a husband, father, psychiatrist and... child rapist. It's not anywhere close to pro-pedophilia but it makes the unforgiveable error of not depicting the molester as a shambling monster with horns and drool dripping down his chin. Like I said, it's good,not great. Worth seeing but unless you are a compulsive movie collector like me, probably not worth buying.
HE on PI: OK I know HE knows everything but does he know enough about the Internet to be his usual entertaining self about it? Ah, silly question, I could listen to that man talk about mowing the lawn and it'd be fascinating. Any chance they'll pit him against one of the cultural Nazis making noise nowadays like Falwell, Buchanan or Gary Bauer? Or would that be such offensive material it would be considered part of the cultural pollution? :)
Hmm, if Matrix was anime that might expain why I was fairly neutral towards it. I can't stand anime. Blech.
-chris
Okay, folks. Stop being poopyheads. Don't make me wade in there with my truncheon! I don't mind the occaisional verbal tussle but let's not make that the whole point of this board, hmmm?
First of all, just because Jim might need to take three deep breaths and let them out before responding, he's not an asshole. And Otto DOES know Everything, he just forgot where he put it. Second of all, the use of handles is a known and accepted practice that goes back to the original BBSes and to CB radio before that. As I've said before, people are encouraged to use them provided they have identified themselves to me. And if you don't trust ME, gang, you need to find another playground.
I loved THE MATRIX - my only complaint was they went for deep about a third through the movie, came up for air another third of the way through, and then never went back down. It was some of the best live-action anime I've ever seen though. And I could even stomach Keanu, that in itself MUST involve some kind of fantastic special effects.
I don't know what the deal is with the Truth About Science Fiction. I have received several contradictory e-mails on it and I don't get the History Channel. Sorry.
FINALLY, set your alarms now for May 26th - Harlan will be on POLITICALLY INCORRECT and the subject of discussion is The Internet. It's already been taped, HE didn't tell me what he said.
Excuse me, Jim. I may be a jerk, but at least my offensive comments are relevant to the topic, and I don't put words in you mouth. I have no recollection of ever claiming that I knew everything -- or of Sheriff Buck doing so, either. Can't anyone defend their position without being labeled as a know-it-all? In fact, in my last post, I asked you a question (obviously, this would be something which I DON'T KNOW), which Sheriff Buck had already indirectly asked, and which I'm still fairly curious about the answer to . . .
Re: Movies. I am fiercely jealous of you all. I have no, repeat, NO money with which to see them. I've been entertaining myself by learning how to do a "'Round the World" on a yo-yo.
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 11:57:44 (CDT)
"Sheriff Buck". I suspected as much, but decided if I didn't have the objective facts before me I wouldn't advance a subjective opinion. Of course, with the facts before me now--your bio, as such--it helps to understand you better. And now that I do I leave it at that. Until next time. . .
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 11:55:11 (CDT)
Otto: It must be nice to be perfect, to know everything, to have the answer to everything. Of course, since you do possess all this why are you here? Until next time. . .
Chris in Philly: you were right on in your analysis of The Matrix but I really dug it anyway. Congrats on being able to watch Happiness. The synopsis alone makes me want to puke. Did you rent it on DVD? I'm wondering because my store didn't get it, and if we should have I'll have to follow up and find out why. Maybe it's too controversial for Hollywood Video. Maggie: Arsenic and Old Lace is a favorite of mine and if Waking Ned Devine reminds you of it, I'm there.
Buck::: Welcome to the wonderful world of college. I have almost three years down and maybe three to go. By the way, loved the satire. Remove the high language that some of us (myself included) are inclined to use, and basically you have poopyhead. sorry for ruining it through interpretation, but that's what an engineer's for... I think. (three years, and I still have no idea what I'm studying. Getting decent grades, but have no idea)
---Peter
Sheriff Buck Parkersburg, WV - Tuesday, May 11, 1999 at 08:56:39 (CDT)
Well...interesting discussions while I was moving out of the dorm after my freshman year at college. Thanks to everyone who came to my defense. I know most of you were merely defending the use of an online alias, but since Jim had already taken the whole thing to a personal level with that silly post about my knowing everything (as if I were putting words directly into his mouth rather than extrapolating from his comments), I thank you.
As for me, I'm an 18-year old white male, 5' 11'' with brown hair and eyes, no facial hair, size 34 jeans, generally untrimmed fingernails and a nasty cough. I chose my nom de keyboarde because the TV series American Gothic was a great work of art, and because I thought it would convey the impression that I was male. In fact, in an interesting interpretation of the TV series, Buck represents masculinity itself. And I don't like to give out my real Name on message boards where any sort of argument takes place, because the net is indeed a bugfuck place, rife with folks who take offense very easily and who may be wackos. Not to be paranoid, but it seems to me that the potential anonymity of the internet often attracts a maladjusted sort. (He said, whilst protecting his own anonymity...) Of course, that email address floating around is a correct one, and a university one, so anyone really interested could find me out anyway.
SATIRE Jim, you are a poopyhead. I tried to play nice. I tried real real real real hard. And then you were so mean I hope you have to kiss a girl. You're just a poopyhead. Poopy Poopy Poopy Head. Otto may be a pottymouth, but I'd rather be a pottymouth than a poopyhead, Poopyjimhead. END SATIRE
Well, I went and saw Waking Ned Devine over the weekend, and it was lovely. Nice writing. Nice story. Nice acting. Lovely scenery. So funny, that even Minnesotan's laughed out loud! Really, theatre people here say that it's because of all the people of Nordic descent here, but whatever the cause, I've been to movies with friends where I have just laughed and laughed and they've barely made a peep. After the movie, they'll go on about how funny the movie was, while I just stare in amazement. There is a Johnny Carson story that I heard before I ever moved here, that really sums it up. Johnny was doing a show here in MN. No matter what he did, the place was quiet like a tomb. He's upset, he's bombing, he's swearing to himself that he will never come back to MN again. After the show, a lady comes up to him and says "Oh, Mr. Carson. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your show. It was so funny, I could hardly keep from laughing!" So, there's your apocryphal MN story for the day.
Still. Waking Ned Devine is just a lovely little film. Kind of in the Arsenic and Old Lace realm of existence.
Well, back to the grind.
Wylie (and all): I thought "The Mummy" was very entertaining - an amusing, non-cerebral monster flick with all the trimmings that was a lot of cheesy fun; "Election" was a little darker than I expected (based on the recent spate of commercials), but Matthew Broderick and Reese Witherspoon played well off each other and drew some genuine laughs; and "Entrapment" owed some definite tips of the hat to Hitchcock in his prime - twists galore that kept me guessing. What can I say? It was a slow weekend.
Chris::: it isn't taboo, but the Code of Hammurabi insists that we now cut off your hand. Actually, I think the best answer for the new Edgeworks would have to be "when it's ready"
wylie::: I was going to go see the Mummy for kicks and giggles, but the line was too long.
Jim et al::: I'd like to mirror wylie's sentiments. What gets me is how the original argument got lost in the scuffle. Sometimes, honor dictates that you stuff a sock in your pride. That's what I do whenever I cease responding to an argument, especially when it starts to circle itself. Sheesh.
---Peter (a friendlier, happier antagonist)
Nope, I haven't seen any good movies lately. Leastways, not at the theater. I saw The Matrix but it was just OK. It was moderately enjoyable, I suppose but I think it was one of those films meant to impress the hell out of people who don't read F/SF and are just going to be in awe of the basic premise of the script. The characters were pretty much non-existent and the story, while respectable, wasn't good enough to make up for it.
I saw Happiness on DVD. Good but not great. It would have been better served without a couple of the more disgusting moments in it. Real cheap gimmicks to get people to talk. But it's obvious that Todd Solondz is talented and I expect he'll be making some great movies in the future.
I also finally saw Dark Star, John Carpenter's first movie. What a riot! Everybody told me it was terrible but I have to say I laughed my rather sizeable ass off.
Is it taboo to ask when the next volume in Edgeworks is coming out? We're about half a year late now. Not that I have anything else to do but I've never read Glass Teat and I think that's up next.
-chris
You see, Jim, I "feel the need" to label you with profanity because you have consistently shown yourself to respond to challenges in such an irrational and tangential manner. When you respond to an argument merely by saying "No, it isn't," and making fun of the challenger's name -- wholly, as you have just confessed, in ignorance of its origins, and not bothering to learn more before you do it -- it shows a kind of childish mentality whose attention I'm only sure I can attract with said profanity. See, just because I use profanity doesn't mean I'm stupid or necessarily vicious. In fact, I just managed to be completely unpleasant to you without using any profanity at all. Does that mean you would rather respond to this message than the other?
As to the handles: why in God's name must everyone be HIDING something? Are you just grumpy because you can't find a way out of the corner you argued yourself into? If you make fun of Mayor Webb for using money from a group which he no longer supports, but don't advocate politicians only making actions in the favor of groups which finance them, what do you mean? Couldn't you just have answered the initial question? Then, we wouldn't have gotten into this whole mess at all.
You know, Bill, people have been claiming "no vote"="Contentment" for quite some time, w/o anything to back it up. It's always seemed to me that "no vote"="no one worth voting for" a lot more logically. Apropos of that, Wylie, ELECTION is quite an amusing film.
Boooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring . . . Can we move on now? Jeez. Anyone seen any good movies lately?
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Monday, May 10, 1999 at 12:13:11 (CDT)
First up: That anyone would feel the need to reduce themselves to the use of profanity to respond to a remark tells me something about them. Something that I have no desire to delve into. That you do use a certain word to describe me tells me that responding to any post at length from you is not worth the time or energy. Second: Let's explore this whole handle issue for a moment, shall we? Admittedly, cyberspace is something a scary place. I won't deny that. Every time I load up my e-mail and hear that little -ping-- that announces the scan program has identified a piece of mail with a virus in it just waiting to rip my computer I get a chill. But at the same time I accept and sort of embrace this particular fear because I *am* voluntarily entering cyberspace. No one is making me come here. I do it of my own accord. Because I do I present myself straightfoward, not hiding behind some handle or e-mask. When someone hides behind a pen name of sorts I have to wonder just what is going on with them. Do they have a legitimate concern that merits the use of this fake name or is there something else going on? Of course, when someone using a fake name comes at me in a rather unpleasant fashion the ol' instincts kick in and I have more than ample reason to question the use of the fake name. Now. As to where 'Sheriff Buck' came from, well, the source info is something to new to me because I didn't watch AMERICAN GOTHIC and presently have no desire to. But it make me wonder what the connection between 'Sheriff Buck' (the character on the tv show, not the person using that name) and Harlan Ellison is. Until next time. . .
RE American Gothic/Star Wars - I used to think there were dozens [or maybe hundreds] of stories but back in the eighties I read Campbells stuff [Hero With A 1000 Faces, etc.] and Robert Bly's "Iron John" [It's really not that bad] and I realized there may be less than half a dozen. Delaney spoke of this a few years back in an interview while explaining why he weas reading more non-fiction than fiction these days. Barney (2 cents) Danne [Prince of the parenthetical] lke
Oy - my slip is showing; it's highly presumptuous of me to refer to the good Sheriff with all those gender-specific pronouns. So much for my alleged enlightenment. Apologies.
It took me most of the season of American Gothic to figure out the show's secret: Star Wars! The future of a young boy hangs in the balance. On the one hand, an evil authority figure (his father, as it turns out) tries to turn the lad to the dark side. On the other hand, a beloved person from the boy's past, whom the evil authority figure killed, appears as a ghost to guide him toward goodness. No wonder the show is being run on the Sci-Fi Channel...
Mitch
John - info, statements and some news links can be found on the Rainforest Action Network page at http://www.ran.org/ran_campaigns/beyond_oil/terry.html. Scot - thanks for the link. Otto - I too loved American Gothic; it's too bad CBS didn't stick with it - where it might have gone in a second season would have been interesting. Jim - Who, precisely, defecated in your corn flakes? I mean, I'm always up for a rational discourse, even an irrational one at times (depends on the company and the amount of Magic Hat #9 I've imbibed), but this, as my old roommate Josh used to say, is excessively silly. Handles and alises are part of the net landscape. Many people use them, many don't. It's nothing so very suspicious. To insinuate that Sheriff Buck has some kind of gruesome secret or sinister agenda to hide because he doesn't post using his real name is a paranoia below even the likes of the fictional Fox Mulder (talk about your improbable names...). And why would you lash out at Keegan, whose post a) was neither rude nor nasty and b) was primarily concerned with her use of a stage name in her jazz life? Is a stage name any less valid than a nom d'plume? Or is she just a bad, bad person because she didn't personally care about Sheriff Buck's ID choice? I often use Finder because, much like Otto, there are times and places I don't want my name floating on the net. Psycho former romantic interests WILL give you some pause in the information age.
I'd like to know if anyone on this board is aware of a news story that disturbed me some time ago. This story was barely a few paragraphs in a major newspaper here in Australia; I'd be interested to learn if it received greater coverage in the US.
The story regards 3 US environmentalists found murdered, execution-style, in Sth America (I believe it was Peru, though possible Colombia or Chile). These activists had travelled to Sth America to get involved in protests against a large multinational oil company's (Shell? I'm not sure) environmental & human rights abuses; one of these activists was a Native American woman, I believe.
The details just get more interesting: The US government blamed a local leftist resistance group for the killings. This organization was apparently in a process of reconciling with its government, and perhaps gaining real political legitimacy. The leftists roundly denied the accusations, and suggested the involvement of right-wing death squads and groups seeking to thwart the leftists' success.
In any case, it does seem rather hard to swallow the suggestion this left-wing group brutally targetted environmetal activists who were trying to draw attention to corporate crime and abuses - even if these activists were US citizens.
The alternative then? More corporate-instigated brutality a la Shell in Nigeria?
Can anyone shed some light on this story? I'd appreciate any details.
John M
Aye, JIMMY, me boy, you did misrepresent my sentiment. I merely noted people FEEL less compelled to vote when they're doing all right. It's that old human nature thing. Didn't claim it was rational--and sure don't recall mentioning anything about NECESSITY. Just stating the way things are. -- Billy D.
Um. This didn't post right earlier, but there's a wildly funny Ellison interview in RealAudio at http://www.nardwuar.com/audio/. Great stuff!
For anyone interested: I finally found a pretty funny link to an Ellison interview I've always heard about. It's located at http://www.nardwuar.com/audio/ , and it's conducted by this nutty Canadian named Nardwuar, who basically interviews lots of more or less famous people and asks incredibly silly questions. Fun stuff, right? I'm listening right now, and I haven't got pissed off yet. Yet. Please consider this a break to the rather serious conversations as of late.
Charlie - Saturday, May 08, 1999 at 13:08:57 (CDT)
RICK- I forgot where I heard this, but I thought there was a show on the History Channel on 5/9 called The Truth About Science Fiction, w/HE. However, a review of the on-line schedule does not reveal the show. Will you clarify. Thanks.
Boy, Jim, you're really kind of an asshole. Instead of responding to Buck's argument in any kind of rational way, you denied his point and made fun of his name. Otto's not MY real name; it's a nickname. I don't post my last name. Hell, you don't know if any of the people here are using their real names. You picked on Sheriff Buck just 'cause he's easy to spot. And no, the name is not out of a second-rate western, it's a character from a fairly wonderful television show that had a single-year run, "American Gothic." I thought his nom was great -- it's been hard trying to find other fans of the show, and his name let me identify him as one immediately.
Some people (including myself) just don't feel comfortable posting their real, full names on an internet bulletin board. I have an unusual enough one that someone could find my address, phone number, etc, in a second. And yes, I've already had someone do so in the past.
Maybe you could find a legitimate response to people's comments in the future, huh?
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Saturday, May 08, 1999 at 10:57:32 (CDT)
Keegan (and whomever else you may be today. . . including 'Sybil'): It is one thing to *write* under an assume name as Stephen King has done (and, um, may still do). It is another to assume a handle like 'Sheriff Buck'. I can understand why King did what he did. Why Harlan Ellison (didn't think I was going to leave HE out of this, did you?) did and may still do. King and HE, to some extent, are brand names. As such they are expected to produce certain forms, voices, styles of writing. To get around this expectation they write under assumed names. But to go around using a handle that sounds like something out of a really bad, probably dubbed, B-Western is another. Makes me wonder what s/he is hiding. Until next time. . .
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Saturday, May 08, 1999 at 10:51:01 (CDT)
The voter turn-out is low because people are content, happy, and satisfied? Okay, that weird little 'wheeeeeek' you may have just heard is a part of me dying in response. If I understand what you wrote then voting is ONLY necessary when things are not good, as in bad? I hope that I have misinterpreted what you have written. Until next time. . .
keegan - Friday, May 07, 1999 at 21:40:01 (CDT)
Hey, man---some of us lead lives so big we need two names! I speak from experience. Yes, it's caused my homies some consternation that I fully adopted "Cookie Coogan" as my jazz persona. "Why aren't you proud of your name?" "Why would you adopt a name when you are so fabulous?" Well, I dunno. It was bestowed upon me, it fits, it works and folks remember Cookie Coogan a whole lot longer than they remember generic ol' "Lauri Keegan". Besides, Lauri Keegan is a legit educator. Cookie, well---she's a wild woman.
Look, Sheriff Buck.....Joe Smith....it's all the same with me. It's the relative consistency that counts here in Netville and though I don't generally dig "the fuzz", the Sherrif's always seemed straight-up with me (and strong enough to handle any difference of political opinion like a tuff.)
my .02 on an inconsequential matter.
JIM: I've never been too concerned with low voter turnout. First, it's not a recent event, and second, I think most people are just plain satisfied. We've got such a good form of government, so many checks and balances, and such a high degree of freedom, most people realize that in general, their lives will be affected very little by who wins and loses an election. So I say, let's keep up the good work and let that voter turnout stay low; it's a sign we're doing something right. -- Billy D.
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Friday, May 07, 1999 at 17:34:07 (CDT)
Thank you for the information on 'Sheriff Buck. I am not concerned with nor interested in the e-mail address. But as to the name game, well, it makes me wonder who as to the real person (if indeed there is such) behind the mask. Until next time. . .
Greetings all. Glad there's a place where intelligent discourse can be had about the terrible killings at Columbine High. Sue: I know what you mean about kids not wondering why it happened. I still remember what junior high and high school were like and I wasn't wondering either. Anyone thought of the similarities between high schools, mail distribution centers and other institutions where these things keep happening? There are always people on the outside but still trapped there, feeling powerless and slighted. I think attending or working anywhere one would call an institution has that element and should be avoided whenever possible. The institutions themselves have a dehumanizing effect. How many of us went to schools that resembled prisons? I went a lot of schools and only one ever felt like a good place to be. Simplistic this may be, but it's the only truth I can find in this horror. Later. Wylie
Ummm..... While "Sheriff Buck" may not be the real name, the person seems to have satisfied Rick's requested board etiquette by posting with an email address earlier on the page... There are a couple of whimsical ones, but towards the end there's one that appears legit. To save you the search...
jhurtz@email.unc.edu
Hope this helps, and my apologies for butting in if the address is a loser. Peg
Jim Hess <10465.765@compuserve.com> - Thursday, May 06, 1999 at 17:27:13 (CDT)
Actually I don't advocate that. But since you know everything, hiding as you do behind a nome de plume, you know that.
Sheriff Buck - Thursday, May 06, 1999 at 16:57:10 (CDT)
Jim: Since this is the second time you've brought it up, I feel I should take issue with the idea that a politician is somehow morally obligated to return donations to individuals or organizations that s/he "turns against." Of course, the entire political donations system is a travesty, but to believe that a politician only gets to keep his contributions as long as s/he does exactly his masters' bidding is to turn all modern politics into nothing whatsoever but a conflict of bribes.
Which may be what it is anyway, but you seem to advocate even more mindless a system than "money talks"--"money rules with an iron fist."
A quickie here - there's be a lot of discussion around rights, the Bill of Rights, the amendments, etc.
Now, I've got a favorite document called the Bill of No Rights. Are folks here familiar with it? If not, it's a document that describes what you're NOT entitled to; it's humorous but also true in a way.
If anyone's interested please email me and I'll forward you a copy. (It's a bit long to post). Peg
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Wednesday, May 05, 1999 at 17:33:56 (CDT)
One comment on this and I will stop. (It's like potato chips; one just ain't enough): Mayor Wellington Webb, who first embraced the NRA and now condemns them though he keeps their donation for his mayoral campaign was reelected mayor of Denver with less than fifteen percent of registered voters voting. So does Democracy work still? Apparently, here, not 'cos no one cares enough to get and care with a single vote. Oh, let's just be done with it. Make Clinton God and Master, abolish individual rights because they weight too heavy, and it's too much responsibility.
Sue Luesse - Wednesday, May 05, 1999 at 11:53:36 (CDT)
*HUG* Keegan - well said. **Alejandro** - GREAT URL
Seems my last post has been subject to some rather interesting personal intrepretation.. I did not write in "favor" of guns or the NRA. I did write in disgust at people buying into the illogic of emotional agenda's pushed by special interest groups using any and every tragedy to advance their agenda - no matter how superficial and tenuous the connection may be to their goal. Somehow, I don't think Eric and Dylan intended to die as martyrs for the NRA or Gun Control or censorship or any of the agenda's currently using the deaths to advance a political position.. In fact, I'd be willing to bet money none of that sort of thing entered their minds as they planned to die.. Not that most people care WHY they did it, just THAT they did it - and maybe how to stop other kids from doing it. First thing to disappear in all the Columbine High debating and speculation was the humanity of the people most affected - the dead - replaced by a lot of blame-placing, political manuevering, and overly simplistic analysis..
I do think a WHOLE lotta people are *still* completely ignoring the entire context of the tragedy - because it's easier to just assume the perpetrators (nice dehumanizing term, that) were insane (ipso facto, isn't it? no proof required) and it was an isolated incident (we really should call them "Occasional Incidents" since they keep happening all over the place), rather than accept something has to be VERY wrong for a long time to result repeatedly in bright kids concluding they have no future worth living for, and the existence of a few kids more or less is inconsequential. The majority of kids in High School and Middle School all seem to understand WHY it happens. In fact, I have seen very little in the way of judgmentalism or blaming from that peer group - mostly "bummer", and sympathy/grief for ALL the deceased.
Why aren't we listening to them? Why do adults tell kids "they know", advise the kids to just "ignore it", dismiss everything they just heard as unimportant, and complain about how much things have changed for the worse since they were in school decades ago? Whole bunch of denial there.. And a lot of non-response when the opportunity is given to learn from the only people who do know what IS going wrong - the kids living it. What a message is given by example! Kids lives aren't worth even a listen, so whatever happens to them is no big deal - unless they die.. And even then their lives are still no big deal, only the details of how they died are important..
OTTO - I'm definately in your corner on the grieving. There are only victims in that scenario.
Folks - I'm not going to jump into the gun control debate, I've heard both sides, I know where I stand and meither my or other's minds will be changed by reading or adding to the arguments already so well-written in other posts. [boy, was *that* a long sentence...] Since I believe you should know my bias before reading further comments, I'm in favor of gun control. And no, I'm not going to explain why.
Recently I've been working through Edgeworks I, the second book "An Edge in My Voice", which are the columns Harlan wrote first for Future Life and then for the LA Weekly and then for ???(haven't got that far yet). It has turned out to be timely, since there are several columns dealing with EXACTLY this topic. During that period, Proposition 15 - a gun control measure - was on the ballet in California. Harlan was then (and I assume he still is now) a staunch advocate of gun control. Pushing aside at lot of the passion in the columns *and* the letters from readers, I found some of the viewpoints and facts presented on both sides revealing. There was a lot of similar arguments to what's been here and all over, but the additional insight into the tactics was eye-opening. [as a teaser - I was astonished on one hand by the sheer volume of cash that out-of-state gun manufacturers were pouring into the campaign to defeat the measure; on the other hand, if the reader was accurate about the actual proposition, there were some extreme portions of the measure which even as an advocate of gun control I wouldn't have approved - such as adoption of a policy of presumption of guilt for gun crimes, etc.]
In any case, I HIGHLY recommend this to everyone to read. Our views of the opponents (no matter which side you are on) tend to be stereotypical and I believe this material will expand your understanding.
Peg
I want to throw another two cents into the pot...
Jim::: The beauty of our system of government and of our constitution is that we don't have to love it warts and all. We, as a people, as a government, are allowed to burn off the warts when the need arises. Otherwise, we'd still have slaves worth three fifths of a person, only land owners would be able to vote, we might have had Reagan for another term or two, and worse, we would have never had the bill of rights to begin with. Our constitution has survived for over two hundred years because of the undeniable fact that it is and always will be an unfinished document.
---Peter
DTS
JIM: Somehow, I can't "get behind" the thought of comparing Eric (who, by the time he started filling folks with lead was a racist and unstable enough to think all things Nazis were cool) and Dylan (who was a "follower" of the worst sort -- the teenage equivalent of Germans who did what they were told during the Third Reich era)...somehow I can't equate those two with someone who got upset over the Littleton massacre but not the things happening in Africa, the Balkans, etc. On that point, and a few others, you're full of it. As for the incident that recently happened in Great Britain (the killing of elementary school children), yes their gun control didn't stop it. I can't recall how the killer came to possess the weapon(s) he used, but just because he did get his hands on a gun isn't an excuse for less control of guns in general. In America, we have more people (mostly young, more often than not, lately, children) who die of gun related deaths, per capita, every year, than England, Germany and Japan -- combined. That figure is no accident. It's the result of availability. Sure, gun control laws are not going to change volatility of the human mind and heart. All of us, to one degree or another, are capable of violence. Recent studies show that folks who have been the victims of violence or brain trauma are more predisposed...but even those folks out there with "normal" brains and synapses are capable of mayhem. And when you make tools like handguns and automatic weapons, etc., so readily available, because of the sheer number of them, you provide the last needed element for a society which can no longer control its own primal impulses. (no, I'm not talking about the majority of us...but with today's firepower capabilities, all you need are a handful of aberrant people to wind up with long lists of victims...obviously). The NRA, and various weapons manufacturers, have, over the last ten to fifteen years, saturated our country with with guns of every sort (it seemed to pick up speed during the Reagan/Bush administrations...republicans do seem to be the fairygodfathers of all things conservative and destructive, don't they?). Anyway, my point (and I do have one), is that America suffers more deaths, cripplings, etc. from handgun and rifle violence than other countries simply because they are more available over here. To argue against more control because of the (very) occassional incident in a country with more constraint is illogical and pointless (unless you are a member of the NRA or on the board of one of the gun manufactures). Humans have proved that they cannot show restraint without laws and rules...and even then they still break them (how many of you out there, at least once in your lives, have driven a car or motorcyle while intoxicated? Many of us have, and that's like playing Russian Roulette with the lives of OTHER people). To tear down the existing laws we have, or go backward and NOT put up more controls where they are clearly needed, is just plain selfish. Societies have to exist in a state of compromise...much like two people do when they marry. You give up some things (freedoms) in order to gain others. It'd be great if we could trust each other enough to let everyone go around do whatever they want to do...but the sad fact is we can't. It's 1999 and we still live in a country where crimes are committed agains people because of their race or ethnicity or sexual orientation (because their parentsraised them in an atmosphere of hateful ignorance, and their peers fostered it), where women are (in many areas) still treated as second class citizens, where puritantical attitudes toward sex and gender are still alive and well, where alcohol abuse is still promoted as a way to socialize, where caste systems (in schools, businesses, and neighborhoods) continue to prosper, where the belief in things of a supernatural nature (we're talking here, mostly, of religions) are still celebrated and promoted over science and knowledge...let's face it, we are still (relatively speaking and evolutionary-wise) living in the dark ages. A few more constraints and controls upon the availability of our killing tools would do us a world of good. And puhleese, Jim, don't drag out the old 2nd Amendment argument each time (the NRA and Charles -ohmygod- Heston) have beat that into the ground. Everyone knows that exactly what the framers of the constituion meant has never been quite clear (since government was still in its infancy and we had just stepped out from underneath England's heels). I'm pretty certain, though, that if Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, and all the rest could have looked into a crystal ball and seen just where and how their fledgling country would end up, they would be amazed (advances in medicine, science, technology) astounded (the Apollo program, heart transplants, pocket computers, television, radio, cell phones), flabbergasted (more sexual freedoms, transcontinental highways, books printed en masse, fads like "beanie babies" and "hula hoops") and horrified (overpopulation, world wars, mass starvation, genocide, and Jerry Springer). It's a brave new world, baby, and I really doubt that the men who wrote the constitution (given all this new information and all these changes) would see things the way they did way back then. That's (one of the reasons) why we have all those amendments. And why we need to constantly questions ourselves and our government...move forward and effect change when it is needed. In other words, use our brains a lot more often than we are prone to doing. Otherwise, evolutionary-wise, we'll never equal the success of the dinosaurs (who were, after all, around this place a lot longer than humans). Whew. Okay, I'm finished. I yield the floor. Out here, DTS.
keegan - Tuesday, May 04, 1999 at 21:37:17 (CDT)
Otto, I weep for you. I hear what you're sayin', man! It's as much a tragedy for the killers as for the killed.
What I took away from the whole thing was this: We are fragile creatures on all levels and we had better start realizing it. Placing blame is a fool's game. We're all to blame. I told my kids straight: "It just goes to show that you better show kindness and common decency to everyone because you never know if you're picking on a psychopath." Hell, the criticism CREATES psychopaths.
I'm uncomfortable laying blame at any one doorstep. Yes, absentee parenting is a problem, but from where I'm sitting, the stay-at-home parent is a thing of the past and simply impossible in some families. You just can't "get by" in the "accepted" middle-class, sold-to-you on the Tee-Vee and Internet lifestyle without some serious digit.
And there's another problem: affluence itself. It has become the be all and end all of some folks' existence. Quite frankly, I'd rather live in a trailer and tell my kids, "No, you can't have that commercial tripe" than to cave in to them and let them have everything they cast their greedy little eyes on. Call me old-fashioned, but I believe it is my duty NOT to be my children's friend and handy-dandy-materialistic-slot-machine, but rather, their authority, mentor and guide to civilization.
I dunno. I have lots of opinions about the event and its reasons, but ain't nothin' gonna erase the stain of those kids' deaths.
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Tuesday, May 04, 1999 at 19:19:34 (CDT)
One more comment on the Littleton high school (Which, despite what ABC News reported earlier today is NOT called 'Littleton High School'. It is, in fact, called 'Columbine High School'): I did some bumping around cyberspace in an attempt to get a better understanding of this (relying on the news media for 'objective' coverage of this or any situation like it is akin to sticking your head into a beehive wondering if you will get stung) and came across an interesting fact: The mother of the man who bought one of the firearms (I believe it was the automatic and his name is Matison ("Mathison"?) belongs to an anti-gun organization. Irony? Sure. The point here is that a) He was of legal age when he bought the firearm, b) the firearm he purchased was purchased legally, c) the ammo he used was legal. d) What he did with the firearm was not legal. So. Where does that leave all this? Well, some could argue that if we followed the time-worn cliche about outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns this would not have happened. Um. . .yeah. Tell that to the people in England where firearms are not allowed who got splattered, spattered, and impailed when the nail bomb went off. The thing here is that the NRA (I am NOT defending them, okay?) was blamed for what happened? Why? Well, because they make for an easy tagert (shoot, another pun. . .AH! and another. . .). Because Heston is Clinton and Gore in that he doesn't listen to what comes out of his mouth. Because they don't promote the good things they do to protect folks and The Second Amendment. I think that if they focused on the good they do instead of playing politics they might not get branded like they have been. Incidentally (and slightly off-topic) did anyone reading this know that the two killers who committed the manslaughter in Littleton went to more than a dozen gun shows and two dozen gun shops before they were even allowed to *look* at guns like those they eventually used to commit their bloodletting? It isn't much, but give the folks who turned them away some credit for obeying the law. Anyway, to bring this all back to Harlan Ellison and what this site should be about, I have, through all of this, think about the story "Knox" and about what Ellison once said about the remarks in that story: If you take offense to only one or two of the terms listed you are a bigot since you should take offense to all of them. The same goes for what happened in Littleton (and Arkansas and Canada): If you take offense to only one mindless slaughter like this you are no better than those who pulled the trigger. You should take offense to all of them. And that leads me to the Constitution: If you support part of it you should support all of it. Warts and all. Until next time. . .
I would like to thank everyone who sent me private e-mails regarding the violence at my former high school. It's been very hard for the last two weeks, because I'm over a thousand miles from home and can't go back for another week. It's very difficult to grieve when there's no one near who can understand the loss. But what is driving me bugfuck is that people keep on being bastards.
I saw Nick + Adam Foss on the news, describing the Trenchcoat Mafia as "the scum of the school." Totally ignoring the fact that they were some of the brightest kids, and that the rest of the school population had already driven them into their niche and had provoked one to violence a year earlier.
I saw the story about the father of one of the victims tearing down the memorial crosses for Dylan and Eric. He was offended that they were being honored in the same place as the victims. Why are his sensibilities more important than mine, than their other friends, than their parents'? I can't even imagine what their parents are going through, but I know that I am furious at having been told that Dylan and Eric were such human offal that I am not even allowed to grieve for them. They are just as dead as the other victims I knew and am weeping for.
The NRA argument I leave in the hands of those who know more about it. I know that my best friend's mother went and protested, and I'm glad she did. I've never liked them and I think it's clear that the biggest concern for them at this point is PR.
God, I want to go home.
Alejandro::: wow, thanks for that link. I haven't read anything that good in a long while. I've started passing that link around to my friends, most of whom can easily identify with it. Again, thanks.
---Peter
Just to add more fuel to the fire, let me recommend an excellent rant by Chris Gregory about the Littleton Massacre which airs out some of my concerns about the knee jerk reaction from media, fundamentalist priests, social and civic leaders, politicians and even parents after this tragedy. (Suffice it to say that high season has been declared on those members of society who do not wish to conform to the tenets established by the schools and its hypocritical cliques of cheerleaders, jocks and other principals' darlings.) Check out the rant at www.sequentialtart.com/may99/guestrant. Hey, check out the entire site. It has some of the best writing I have yet to see on the Web.
DTS
DAMN: for the sake of coherence.. the sentence below should read "Only thirty or thirty-five years ago..." -- DTS
DTS
SUE & Jim Hess: I aboslutely agree that the BIGGEST problem where violence and children are concerened are parents -- bad parents and absent parents, something American has plenty of... but,while I can't pretend to speak for anyone else in this debate, I think that the problem most people (who argue against them) have with guns is that there are so damn many of them in our country. The NRA and gun manufacturers have virtually flooded our land with them. Only thirty or thirty five (depending on if it's high school or junior high) I was attending schools and worrying about getting beat up (occasionally) or getting in the middle of a (pretty rare) knife fight. Guns never entered the equation. Now kids go to school wondering who's packing and who is not. Guns may not kill people, but they sure as hell make it easier to do so. And I guarantee, Sue, that if the two guys in Littleton had been rampaging with only machetes, they wouldn't have had killed so many. Maybe a few extra lives saved isn't anything to brag about...until your daughters or sons become one of the victims...Out here, DTS.
Sue Luesse - Tuesday, May 04, 1999 at 09:49:27 (CDT)
Sheesh!! Get back from an out of town trip, and what do I find? A stinking, steaming, brown, gooey mess.. The issue of violence in society has everything to do with people, and nothing to do with their tools. Good thing guns aren't readily available in Rwanda and Burundi so all they have are machetes - someone coulda got hurt otherwise... If you don't want people killing other people, get rid of the Cause. Ban bigotry, nationalism, greed, self-empowerment through abuse of others.. Oh - there's a problem with that? Well, dang - then lets blame some entertainment industry / the NRA / Religious Right / Clinton (a choice for every personal emotional bias available on request).. God Forbid we teach kids by example it's OK to co-operate and give up sole posession of the credit/reward, that the bottom line counts less than personal integrity, that immediate self gratification isn't the only (or best) achievement.. And if we want to throw around "facts", lets throw in the Colorado legislature showing their sensitivity by delaying the vote one week to make concealed weapons permits easily available to most citizens (so the public can arm itself with handguns) - because states that allow their citizenry to arm itself have 'unexplainable' lower incidences of violent crimes.. Or that most tragedies like Littleton don't involve handguns at all - bombs, shotguns, and semi-automatics is more like it, 'cause handguns just aren't very efficient for the mass killing desired... It's not a "simple" issue, and there are no "simple" answers - and trying to solve a complex issue with an emotionally charged simplistic assumption almost always makes the situation worse. Hey! let's get rid of schools!! Then there will be no more school-shooting tragedies.. geeez...
Chris - I am also very concerned about a return to the fun-filled 50's of HUAC (once was too many, thank you). I don't see where censorship does less "violence" to people, simply because souls and minds don't ooze blood and cover the floor when they are murdered.. I truly resent the trend towards using any tragic violent event to justify restricting personal rights and freedoms - events which are at best supeficially related to the targets of consorship. So did the movie The Matrix cause the Littleton tragedy? The computer game the boys played? The TV shows they watched? Their moms didn't get the advertised softest brand of toilet paper, and it rubbed them the wrong way? sheesh.. The only thing that bothers me more than the illogic of those agenda's, is that so many people actually buy into the justification..
Hiya Jason!! *hug* sure I remember you.
oooo - way too long and serious.. VROOOM - off to do the Zen thing on the bike. Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe
Chris::: actually, I think your fears are well founded. Even with the supposed silver age of comic books the comic code kept comics dumbed down and safe. Stan Lee has a story he likes telling about a Spiderman issue from the late sixties. He did a story about spiderman trying to help Harry Osborne get off of drugs, and the comic code people refused to approve it because... it mentioned drugs and that was a no no. Nevermind that the story was as anti-drug as you could get, they still refused to approve it because their code said no sex, no blood, no criminals getting away with a crime, and absolutely no mention of drugs. So Marvel published that issue without the comic code seal of approval. When we start blaming the media for a "culture of violence" we lose sight of the real issues and hide behind our fears.
The only thing scarier than a "culture of violence" is the potential reaction to one.
Buck::: I do the most posting during finals. It helps my brain take a brief break before cracking open the books. Have at it, good luck, and remember, posting is good for your mental health.
---Peter
To take a sidetrack from this Littleton/gun debate, is anyone else as concerned as I am about the furor being kicked up now about the so-called "Culture of Violence" and violent movies, tv, etc.
I don't know how many of you know your comic book history but there was a big stink made about comic books in the late 40's and early 50's spearheaded by religious groups and a fellow named Dr. Frederic Wertham (hope I got the name right - I have a mental block on this guy's name) who wrote a propaganda pamphlet called _Seduction of the Innocent._
These groups decided to blame comic books for the terrible juvenile deliquency of that time. Kids then were violent and vicious and had no respect for authority, not like int he good old days, blah blah blah. Enough people got sucked into the frenzy that the Comic Code Authority was created and, as aresult, the entire industry was almost knocked out of existence. many companies folded, the entire horror genre was all but wiped out and comic books pretty much SUCKED for several years until the Silver Age got well under way.
I fear something similar is happening now. People want to find easy answers. They don't want something difficult like "Be better parents", they want a scapegoat. And there are enough ignorant people as well as opportunists with agendas to make Hollywood and video games the convenient scapegoats.
I'm afraid we're about to enter a very reactionary period in our culture with the oppressive censorship of the 50's returning in only a slightly, altered form.
Am I worrying for no reason? Does anyone else share these fears?
I have more to say but my post is long enough. I figure this is an appropriate topic for this forum as you could bet the running dogs would be nipping at HE's heels if the frenzy builds up to critical mass.
-chris
Sheriff Buck - Monday, May 03, 1999 at 23:37:58 (CDT)
Peter, Jim: Just wanted to jump in on your little discussion (this is a public board) and say thank you to Jim for a real nice, hard, curative belly-laugh re your last post. I quote: "As to the 'anti-Clinton', 'right-wing' diatribe, puh-lease. Don't wander into that bigoted minefield." Quite humorous, I thought, considering you couldn't help but throw a completely unrelated anti-Clinton diatribe into that very post. I don't care if the Clinton subject had already been raised (on a different issue, mind). The best way to keep folks out of the minefield is to stop layin' the mines.
Note: this is not to weigh in on either side of the issue; I'm in the middle of final exams and don't have the time to keep myself really informed right now. Here's hoping no one points out the apparent inconsistency that I can somehow find the time to contribute to the board...
Buck
Peter - Monday, May 03, 1999 at 21:56:18 (CDT)
two things, and then I'm done with this discussion, for this is not the forum for an extended debate of this nature. The meeting was in fact an integral part of the convention. I acknowledged the fact that they cancelled the festivities and exhibits, but to call it a meeting and not a convention is a silly argument in semantics. The point is, it was held in Colorado. Not that it was held. But it was held in Colorado. I cannot break that one down any further. And I cannot accept that their bylaws don't allow them to move or postpone the meeting based on extraordinary circumstances. Under this condition, should the building in which they were scheduled to meet be hit by a comet, then the NRA would dissolve because they failed to meet. Such rigidity in an organization can only serve to stifle growth. And without growth comes stagnation. Two. The connection between the two teens and the NRA is not misinformation, but association. The NRA is an organization devoted to preserving the second amendment. That said--and thank you for the info on Heston--they are very active in trying to curb legislation geared toward the regulation of fire arms (check their own site if you don't believe me). So, there is a mental connection between the NRA's attack on gun-control legislation and the fact that these two high school students had such easy access to fire arms. Association, not misinformation. So their presence, especially to the families of victims, was, as I said, salt on an open wound. Don't ask me. Ask the fathers and mothers of victims who were protesting outside of the hotel. I was just expressing my outrage that they even felt that they had to be there.
oh yeah. right-wing and anti-clinton. Those are facts. Heston makes no bones about his being a far right conservative, and he also made no bones about attacking clinton in his speech at the meeting, in the press, and in his written communications with NRA members.
---Peter
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Monday, May 03, 1999 at 21:03:13 (CDT)
I read your comments in reply to my post replying to your original comments and will once more point out a few things: Yes, the killers who did the Littleton murders are publically associated with the NRA. But it is because misinformation such as that you cited that perpetuates this notion. The NRA did cancel the convention. (Please reread my comments on this. They cancelled the convention. They did not cancel the meeting they had because of the by-laws of their organization. Had they forgone this meeting they would no longer legally exist. That's the rules, and I give them credit following the rules. (Unlike, say, Clinton, who believes himself above the law and beyond rules that govern the rest of us; incidentally, whatever came of that contempt of court charge he got slapped with? Last I heard he was trying to negotiate his punishment; oh, to be able to chose the punishment for our given crimes.)As to anti-gun legistlation, apparently you have not done as much research on the matter as you claim. The NRA does support what can be deemed anti-gun legislation. In fact it was Heston, before he was pres of the NRA, who asked that certain types of bullets and ammo be banned. It was also Heston who introduced more stubborn safety measures on handguns. (He was, pun intended, shot down on this.) As to the 'anti-Clinton', 'right-wing' diatribe, puh-lease. Don't wander into that bigoted minefield. Using terms such as these just go to discredit you. Until next time. . .
Jim::: no offense taken, but I did research before I went on my little verbal tirade. First of all, I never claimed the two teenagers had any NRA affiliation. That is a specious claim. My claim is that through fault of association, the two teenagers are inexorably linked to the NRA in the public consciousness. I will acknowledge that the NRA shortened the convention from three days to one, but the fact of the matter is, they were asked to either move or cancel their convention all together. They were asked, out of respect and consideration for the families of the victims who died in the recent school shootings. Now I don't see this as unreasonable request. Even logistically, it could have been accomplished. But no. The NRA, as represented by Mister Charlton Heston, decided to get on its high horse and spout a whole bunch of right-wing, anti-clinton, anti-gun control rhetoric. I found that to be a bit tacky. What I find reprehensible is not the NRA as an entity (I have several gripes with them, but that is not at issue) what I find is their lack of respect and their flagrant lack of tact. In a situation where it would have been better for them to bow down and keep a tight lip, especially with tempers as hot as they are, they decided to use this incident to push their own political agenda. Now, I made no effort to hide my own personal bias against the NRA. I will admit that some of my statements may have been wildly exaggerated (ie the armor plated deer) but those were not intended as statements of fact, but rather as attempts to attack the situation with hyperbole. Call it my writing style. In fact, if I were to count the claims I made and took issue to, I could count them on one hand. The convention, Heston, and the political attacks. All three of which can be verified through independant sources. Connections to the Littleton incident are merely acts of logic and common sense. However, in this world, we seem to be driven more by extremist reactionism. Clinton's guilty, the NRA is guilty, I'm guilty, the world is guilty of reacting to this tragedy badly. However, that still does not excuse any of it. Check out www.nra.org for some of their own communications about the event. However, also note that sometimes, actions do speak louder than words. But then again, public words can also be loud enough.
As for my gripes about the NRA. I oppose the extremity to which they invoke the second amendment. They freely admit to opposing any and all legislation which attempts to regulate fire-arms. It almost seems as if they've shut their ears to any and all arguments in favor of gun-control. It's their closed mindedness which ticks me off, and their refusal to act with any degree of tact is just, for me, another indication of that closed mindedness. Now, I ask anyone who reads my two messages to please point out if I am, at any point, being unreasonable, or if my arguments still seem erratic and uninformed. If I have learned anything from reading Ellison, it's to keep informed.
---Peter
Jim Hess <10465.765@compuserve.com> - Monday, May 03, 1999 at 19:17:40 (CDT)
Peter: No offense intended, but I don't know where you got your information regarding the NRA, the recent meeting in Denver, the convention, and the Littleton situation. A couple of quick points on the convention in Denver. Actually, they did cancel the convention out of respect for the mindless and pointless murders in Littleton. They held the meeting they did because they are required under the governing laws and rules of their charter to have the meeting they did. That was all. Had they failed to have that meeting and produce, according their laws and rules, evidence of the meeting taking place their charter would have been placed in jeopardy and the NRA would, as a result, have faced the possiblity of being terminated. Which, I suspect, would be just fine with you. Of course, that being the case, the next step would the elimination of the Second Amendment. Then The First Amendment, then The Fifth Amendment (unless you are Charlie Trei or a friend of Bill's, and then you would be allowed to claim it). Then the Constitution. Another point regarding this situation which may be of interest to you: The killers who did what they did were not and had not been members of the NRA. Did you know that the NRA runs background checks on its members? Did you know the NRA reserves the right to refuse membership to anyone with a police record? Despite what you may have heard by way of the 'objective' news media, the NRA is not the orge it is painted to be. (Incidentally, I am not presently a member of the NRA, so this is not an attempt to condone or justify them.) I suggest, if you wish to be taken seriously on this issue you research the matter of the NRA further as well the matter in Littleton. As one who lives in the area where this slaughter took place I can tell you that there is more to this situation--NRA and a convention in Denver or not--than the news media has reported or will ever report. And, oh, by the way: Did you know that the current mayor of Denver, Wee Willie Webb, solicited and accepted a substantial donation from the NRA when he ran for the mayorship the first time? Did you know he has yet to return that donation despite his recent turning on them? (Which, incidentally, was prior to the Littleton massacre.) As I said, there is more here than what you may have heard, read, or seen by way of the mainstream news media. Until next time. . .
Shane - Monday, May 03, 1999 at 11:26:29 (CDT)
That should have been "I've helped..."
Shane - Monday, May 03, 1999 at 11:25:07 (CDT)
DOC: I can't imagine how you are feeling. I helped suicidal friends and I've known depression myself, but to find a note and not know the fate of your friend must be hard. I hope for the best.
Hi does anybody remember me? I was here a while ago. I remember keegan Sue Doc i've been busy for a while now. since i also knew of shaz could someone email me about the shaz incident?
Hi does anybody remember me? I was here a while ago. I remember keegan Sue Doc i've been busy for a while now. since i also knew of shaz could someone email me about the shaz incident?
Preface::: this is a Rant of the Nth degree. I needed to get this off my chest. I'll probably rework and re-edit it into a proper essay later...
In a display of tackiness so--despicable that even I am having a hard time ignoring, the NRA refused to cancel their annual convention in colorado. Chucky "Moses" Heston has stated that holding the convention was a question of freedom and attacked the Clinton administration for using the Columbine incident to push gun control laws. Now, call me crazy, but I would think that the decision to cancel the convention would be more of a question of respect than of freedom. No one said (as far as I know) that they couldn't hold the convention, just that they shouldn't.
The fact that the NRA refused to cancel what could only serve as a salt-on-wound reminder of the tragedy in Littleton really shows where their priorities lie. It really shows their true face. They don't care about people. They seem to see deaths as an unfortunate side-effect of their god-given constitutional rights. Nevermind that with freedom comes responsibility, a responsibility that too many people refuse to take on. Nevermind that the constitution only mentions the right to bear arms and makes no mention of automatic assault rifles with laser targeting and nightvision scope, for hunting the rare breed on armor plated deer with their own arsenal of semi automatic machine guns. when Chuck came down the mountain, bearing the two stone tablets upon which the bill of rights was written, he spoke the ten sacred amendments to an awaiting people. However, he failed to realize that these ten amendments weren't proclamations of god. They represented the freedoms and wishes of the people. And if people call for the freedom from terror over the freedom to arm militant bears, then so be it. There is no power in this country greater than the constitution save one, and we are it ladies and gentleman. We the people of the United States, as a gestalt entity of both fractured mind and fractured body, have the capability of rising up and taking control of our government.
Now, no one I know of is saying we should revoke the second amendment. The right to bear arms is still an essential freedom in that our govenrment is built on a healthy distrust. But the limiting of that freedom by controlling the more destructive of these elements can only ensure against a greater freedom from terror on the part of the people, and a greater prosecuterial power against those who find it necessary to transgress the limits we as a people have set forth.
In staying true to form, perhaps someone should let Chucky know that the control of weapons whose only defensive capabilities lie within their potential for lethal destruction, would indeed allow him to part the red sea--the sea of blood which is spilled on the soil of all American cities. For until the NRA gives up their pig headed reactionary ways, the path to the promised land will forever be blocked by the sea's troubled waters.
---Peter (for an atheist, I tend to reference the bible a lot)
DTS
DOC & everyone else: Funny you should mention "changing the channel" during a short rant that mentions Littleton...did anyone happen to read the article (which ran in USA today) about a day or two after the incident in which one of the victims stated that he wished he'd had a video camera with him...to film the event...when some of his fellow classmates and survivors looked at him in horror, he tried to amend by saying that he only wanted a film because it all seemed so unreal to him at that point...like a myth, or something. Scary. The poor kid couldn't connect to reality unless it was on video. I immediately remembered the introduction to Strange Wine. I know everyone reacts in odd ways after such a traumatic event, but even so...just reading something like that in the midst of all that trauma and sorrow was unsettling. Out here, DTS.
What a world, huh? I get my picture wuth Donald Duck, and return to SF to hear about Littletown, CO; I am initiated into the magic that is Poppy Z. Brite, but,... well, there's this guy, a good friend of mine, who would enjoy her work tremendously, but I cannot recommend it to him because, 5 days ago, he disappeared, and we found his suicide note Wednesday, but still no body. And I have no trouble getting the words on the page, but it all reads like -- to use a professorial term -- crap. I mean, well-meaning junior high student stuff. Except, Ms. Brite was writing stuff at 18 that puts my current work in the shade. JeezUS. Can I change the channel, now? Doc
Todd Mason - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 18:09:15 (CDT)
The oddest thing to me about your posts, Peter, is that I first encountered Donald Barthelme, William Faulkner and Ronald Sukenick in anthologies of horror and sf. Faulkner's "A Rose for Emily" is certainly a ghost story chestnut, and Barthelme's "The Genius" was in the first volume of Harry Harrison and Brian Aldiss's BEST SF (71 I think it was) that I read...Sukenick was probably in some metafiction/modern fantasy collection. (Barthelme deserves credit, or blame, in part for the '60s BATMAN series, as well, thanks to his short story "The Joker's Greatest Triumph"--in which Bruce Wayne trades leaden quips with his writer friend Fredric Brown...meaning DB was aware of at least one significant figure in SF, even if not too impressed with him [perhaps, or perhaps it was simply a rib]).
ALL: I'm sorry, but the previous e-mail address is invalid. If you want the article e-mail me and I'll send you my copy.
Shane - Thursday, April 29, 1999 at 09:03:32 (CDT)
ALL: If you missed Harlan's appearence on PSIFACTOR you can read about it here:
http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?TS=925397942&Did=000000039176454&Mtd=1&Fmt=3&Sid=1&Idx=1&Deli=1&RQT=309&Dtp=1
ALL- I came across this website concerning "The Starlost" and found it interesting: http://www.snowcrest.net/fox/star.html
It is a good feeling when a published professor looks at an essay and says "I'm impressed, this could be published." An even better feeling is the fact that I thought I would have to sell my soul to Ronald Sukenick in order to impress this professor. Too bad he thinks my stories are genre "crap." But after showing him my essay on the literary/genre debate this morning, he was truly impressed and really looking forward to the discussion in this afternoon's workshop. The man who has said time and time again that he didn't find my humorous stories funny, actually laughed out loud within the first fifteen seconds of reading my essay. And that was at a strategic placement of the word "crap". So I am doing something right.
Now only the lecture will tell.
---Peter (updates will follow)
Peter - You make good arguments in your essay. Indeed, could one not make the case that "literary fiction" is a genre unto itself? If we accept that a genre is classified by specific trappings or elements used to tell the story, then an author setting out to create a piece of literature as art is, by incorporating certain types of characters or time-worn dramatic situations found in the rich history of literary fiction, actually writing within a genre. It just isn't recognized in the traditional sense of a 'genre'.
It's all just trappings, really. Set the story of the junkie trying to survive a Nazi invasion in 1941 Paris, with its examination of said junkie transforming from shiftless grifter to legitimate survivor-villain, and it's potentially literary fiction. Set it against the Kyben invasion of Deald's World, and it's "Run For The Stars". And what Academia can't easily slap into a pre-defined 'genre' it assigns ex post facto classifications to: for example, book so-and-so uses dark imagery and has a god-theme running through it, so it's existentialism. How else do you break up all the fiction that is bereft of robots, gnomes, stagecoaches or a dead body behind locked doors at the Vicarage?
How do you defeat labels? You never fully will. They're ingrained in the psyche of the world. The masses draw comfort from being able to use a thumbnail sketch to identify the whole picture, no matter how off-base the sketch is. But as a reader, you can refuse to use them - and as a writer, you can refuse to write comfortably within any of them. And if you attain the level of art within what is considered a genre, in a hundred years you may be taught in a university classroom as part of the "Speculative Humanist" movement of the 1970s-90s. In a world where Carrot Top gets to be in a movie with Courtney Thorne Smith and I don't, anything is possible.
Peter - Monday, April 26, 1999 at 20:14:48 (CDT)
If I lived in a perfect world, I would never want any kind of label ever used to describe a writer. However, I don't. More to the point, I live in a world of closed minded, bigoted, elitists who like nothing more than to declare themselves as the end all be all sages of literary art. And sometimes, you just have to get down to their level and beat them at their own stinking game just to survive the horrors of academic fiction classes. Now, I could just turn my head, go off in my own direction, and hope to god that I improve as a writer, but I have to be the first one to admit, academia certainly does a lot to show me those who have come before me. If it weren't for this class I never would have read Faulkner or O'Connor, or Gardner, or Barthelme. I probably would have been gibbering on the same ol' same ol' that I've been reading. Not that what I've been reading is bad. I'll be the first to admit that what I read is good. Its just limited.
So, I've finished my essay. I don't give it to my prof until wednesday, but I've posted it at
http://www.netvista.net/~petero/genre.html
if anyone is interested. Feedback is most welcome. It's about twice the size my prof wanted, but what the heck, I love writing. I love writing so much, I even put up with a prof who calls me Pat because he mixes Peter with Padraic. My first with my middle.
Sheesh.
---Peter
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Monday, April 26, 1999 at 17:37:49 (CDT)
Everyone has battles to fight, and mine is an old battle indeed. I have just been asked by my writing professor to write an essay explaining the difference between "literary" fiction and "genre" fiction as I perceive them, having been schooled in both. This came about because I got tired of all of the literary posing I had felt I had to do to get any of my stories taken seriously. So, I submitted a straight as you come piece of speculative fiction for the class' reading pleasure. My only problem is that I am a better writer than I am speaker, so whenever I attempt to discuss my viewpoints, I come across as extremist in the least, fanatical at worst. Still, this will either clear the air between me and my class, or just serve to muddy it further. Either case, it will at least let everyone there know where I finally stand. I'll report back on how it goes, as I know that this thread has been beaten to death on this board many a times.
---Peter
Hello everyone. I just wanted to say, I enjoyed seeing HE at ICon. I managed to catch the Liar's panel, and was lucky enough to get in his Saturday evening discussion. Does anyone remember the person who got paged by Mr. Ellison during the Liar's panel? That was I. I did however manage to sneak back in. Since I live on Long Island, I hope to see Mr. Ellison at future ICons. If so, I hope the next time they have sense enough to get him scheduled in a larger room or perhaps an auditorium. The ISC Stage would have been perfect. Anyway, I had a great time and enjoyed meeting other HE fans from all over. Hopefully I'll see you all in the future.
Charlie St. Pete, FL - Friday, April 23, 1999 at 15:34:41 (CDT)
NEWS FLASH- (not really, but I thought that sounds more exciting)- The new F&SF announces that the "major new novella" from HE for the 50th Anniversary special will actually be a short story. The novella to be saved for another time. Charlie
Todd Mason - Wednesday, April 21, 1999 at 17:54:08 (CDT)
Good luck to your friends, Otto, and better luck to all the survivors of senseless violence...or, for that matter, purposeful violence, as it unfolds around us. And sometimes far away, but in our names.
Sue/"Buck"/Barney--Theodore Sturgeon did indeed write "It Wasn't Syzygy" and other stories he wrote made at least metaphorical use of the term...James Blish, in his critical writing about Sturgeon, was slightly perturbed by what he saw as TS's rather loose use of the term, when "synergy" (not yet a buzzword!) seemed more what Sturgeon was reaching for; I suspect TS disagreed.
Hello, again, folks! Perhaps I'm not sorry I missed ICon.
Otto: As Rick said, our thoughts are with you and all of those who are affected by this tragedy.
Otto - My thoughts (and I imagine I speak for the rest of the Web-rats) are with you and your friends today. I was having a lot of problems at work and feeling sorry for myself and then I read your message. I think the saddest thing is that the media is only going to encourage repeats of this sort of violence with their instant and constant coverage.
You may already know this, but there is a victim's list (the injured only) on CNN at: http://cnn.com/US/9904/21/school.injured.list.02/
About Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado -- for those of you who've been unconscious or cut off for the last twenty-four hours, this is a school where two boys came into the cafeteria shooting, putting twenty-three people in the hospital and killing possibly as many as twenty-five others, including themselves.
Why am I re-depressing you with this? Because it's my high school.
Slight correction; it used to be my high school. I am currently a freshman in college. But I have a great many friends that still attend the school, who I have been unable to get in touch with because all phone circuits in Colorado are busy. I can't even contact my parents. No names of the dead or wounded are being released yet, because most of them are minors.
As I sit here, chewing my fingers off with anxiety and frustration, I would appreciate it if you would all keep me and my friends in your thoughts. (It's times like this that I wish there were a deity I found believeable.) Additionally, I thought that this was the perfect group to hand this topic to, to rant about.
Thank you for your kind attention.
Major tom to ground control. I'm approaching burnout. repeat. I'm approaching burnout.... wow, this semester is beginning to get to me. Ah, to be young and in college and trying to balance writing, school, and a social life. I've been reading Gentleman Junkie over the last couple of days. I like it. I like it a lot. Now if only I could take the time to actually enjoy it. That would be nice.
---Peter (taking the slow, scenic route to insanity)
Thanks to everyone (Doug, Keegan, Amy, Shane, Barney, Mitch) for your responses to my mega-post about ICON. I have sent my comments to ICON, and perhaps they will be of some help.
Doug - A safety escort is a good idea; I added it to my note to ICON, thanks.
Shane - Thanks for your comments as someone who knows the inside workings of putting together a convention. I really do appreciate the enormous amount of time, effort, and work that goes into organizing a large convention like ICON. Unfortunately, because of the events which occured I felt it was necessary to express my displeasure. But now that I am no longer an ICON-newbie and I would know better, that is not really the kind of solution I am hoping for. That just means that next time it would be someone else stuck on the wrong side of the door.
keegan - Thanks for your very kind words and your support. I guess it would make me happy if they just said "we're sorry about that and we'll try to keep it from happening again".
Barney - There were two drunks at HE's talk? Geez, I missed all the fun! 8-)
ALL: There is a review of the movie, A BOY AND HIS DOG, at www:scifi.com/sfw/issue95/classic.html
Has anyone seen the DVD version and if so how does it differ from the LD & video tape versions?
Sue - Wasn't aware of the alchemical thing...but the term actually means something related but different, the way Actual Scientists use it: rather than the occurrence itself, it refers to any of the points in another planet's (or Moon's) orbit at which it is in opposition (or conjunction) with the sun. Of course, it's not as if I purport to be an Actual Scientist. But I've met a few, and took a solar-system astronomy class last semester.
All - has anyone read the hardcover Borges "Collected Fictions" that came out last fall? I own many of these stories already, but I was just wondering: are the new translations as superior as the advance press made them out to be? And does the volume include any previously unpublished material?
DeeTeeEss - yes, it's refreshing. I'm one of them, too. Witness my latest debacle daring to stick my head into the sf and fandom newsgroups. File under "Mistakes, Failing to Learn From".
Peter - loved the poem, you should get Jethro Tull to do the music to it. Then maybe you could get Finder's boy Mccoy Tyner to cover it - he's my favorite keyboardist, although seeing Jimmy Smith work the Hammond last week at age 74 made that a difficult decisions.
And Sue, I'm still telling people about the pictures of dirt. Guys, the woman wants to send me pictures of Harlan but she's got quite a few shots left on the roll, so I say "I dunno, take pictures of dirt or something". So the package comes in to Webderland HQ, and, well...now I know all to well what the various patches of mud and earth and rock look like in Sue's backyard.
RICK: Just read your message -- isn't it nice to know there are still a few "innocents" out here among the over thirty crowd? PETER: nice poem. Until next time, I remain...clueless. Out here, DTS.
a bit of merriment, enjoy.
women, women, birds and bees / bringing men down to their knees / slipping through the slivered cracks / while silver lines the camels' backs.
reeking rasping respiration / hardly hides his hesitation / pentecostal words and phrases / disordered thoughts like clustered mazes.
trailing through a hedge of bets / forgetting what his life begets / courage through a lack of reason / except the moon, the month, the season
emerging slowly from the wood / man discovers life is good. / come this summer, come this fall / he'll never know he's lost at all.
all:::I don't know why, but that poem hit me this morning as I woke up. Since I don't consider myself a poet, I generally don't draft them. But I thought maybe, given some of the discussions and miscommunications which have been proliferating, we could use an intermission to jump us back on track.
---Peter
Peter & Sue - By all means, you can still call me Finder. I do still like it as a handle; I just wanted to let loose a little identity. In truth, I answer to a number of things, including the occasional well-directed 'hey you'. Rick - I envy you the opportunity for NYC; despite rampant bad press, all of my trips there have been very good experiences, and I love the palpable energy level that courses through the place 24/7. It really doesn't ever sleep - so get rest while you can. Keegan - Go get 'em! My fingers are crossed for you in between snaps to Blue Note's "Blue Bacharach" compilation (tonight's musical bill of fare); your post has single-handedly led me to pine for a sunny, top-down drive through the Finger Lakes betwixt Geneva and Owego, wind in my hair and McCoy Tyner tickling the ivories for a soundtrack...SIGH
keegan - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 22:17:39 (CDT)
Dig, 'meister. That's only fair. Hey all, if you think a good thought or pray a prayer, think or pray up a grad assistantship for me. Not only is it tax day, it's the day I met with my grad advisor. He say that I'm sittin' pretty if they grant me an assistantship. If I get the bread, I can take the summer off and finish up the masters by May 2000. Not only will I get to spend the summer swimmin' and catchin' frogs 'n' fireflies w/ my little boys, but I might actually get to read some Harlan lakeside while I pay enough attention to keep my progeny from drowning. Then I get a year off from teaching the joy of song to other folks' children to pursue my academic interest in education. The advisor says he will sign waivers to let me write about my music, Jazz instead of the dead white guys most folks write about. I'm up for the challenge!
Rick, you and Kristen are always welcome. You really wanna come up here where the wind blows cold, though?
Sue--look for email soon. I miss ya.
ALL: Webderland is one of the hippest places on the Web. I dig all of you.
---keegan aka Cookie Coogan, BeBop vocalist
Rick - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 21:37:26 (CDT)
No, no, no, NO. Ya just have to identify yourself ONCE, either e-mail to me or on your original post. Really. It's fine to continue using initials (and yes of course I really knew who DTS was, let me take my tongue back out of my cheek) and to use funny names and e-mail addresses. It's just if you're going to come in here and make unwarranted allegations or piss in anyone's wheaties, and you're not willing to leave your calling card, then don't expect to be hanging around for long. Both I and Harlan have had enough of folks who pull the equivalent of running into your parent's dinner party, shouting "DooDoo!", and running out giggling. Those of you who are the Good Guys have earned the right to hang without me asking to see your papers at every street corner. Dig?
Yaknow, I can appreciate that there are trolls and flamers on the net, folks with no self-esteem that self-empower by abusing total strangers. They are the folks who write down the name and e-mail attached to a post they don't like, and sign you up to receive all the solicitations for membership to all the porn sites, etc., they visited and used your name and e-mail to "register".. That takes forever to get your name off the lists.. Yes, it has happened to me more than once. That is a MAJOR reason I stopped putting my e-mail on every post. I *like* the idea of registering to post. It protects the people posting from abuse, stops the lame crap that seems to amuse the trolls, and doesn't even affect Lurkers, since they "read only" by definition, and can register any time they'd like to post. Here! Here! Rick. Good idea. One time registration for your posting name, and no more hassles.
RE: The current homophobic thread - Sheesh Becca! So what *exactly* makes you think you have any 'right' to know someone else's personal sex life? Yaknow, if you are *looking* for gays, there are entire networks of gay sites, bulletin boards, chat rooms, and alt.thingies.. Troll there - you're more likely to find what you are looking for..
RE: Syzygy the actual word.. ummm.. Sherrif Buck, that IS the scientific astronomical definition - an alignment of earth, sun and another planet or the moon. The less common usage is somewhat arcane and obscure - the metaphysical alignment of exact opposites with a nuetral body acted upon as the center. It's sort of an Alistair Crowley kinda thing..
Odds and Ends: It's OK if I still call you finder? Right, finder? Cause I can't find the ascii code on my chart for TPFKAF.. Sounds like I-Con was quite the event - good and bad. I can hardly wait for pictures with detailed captions.. So why don't you like your cats enough to take pictures of them, Mitch? I sent Rick pictures of dirt to finish off the ComicCon roll of film.. ;-) .. Would stay and chat - but, dang the stuff to do piles up quick when you are out all day with the bike enjoying the first good riding weather of the season..
DTS
RICK: I've been posting as DTS for about two years now. I'm the other guy who reviewed SLIPPAGE for the site -- and who still owes you the review of MINDFIELDS -- also known as Dorman Truett Shindler. (Harlan knows of me, since I send him the reviews and write-ups from various newspaper work I do). Since I tend toward typos, I found it was easier to type the intials. If it's okay with you, I'd like to keep doing so. Makes it easier on the fingers. As for my email, I use my wife's (I still don't have one) when I absolutely HAVE to communicate that way with folks, otherwise I still rely on snailmail (that way I don't tie up her space. Hope that clears things up...Out here, DTS.
Okay. I'm out. I'm really a seventy-five year old hypno-proctologist from Lichtenstein. I've published several hundred romance novels under the name "Celia Locosta" and am heir to a small cork fortune. This whole engineering student trying to be a writer thing was merely a ploy to lull everyone into a false sense of security, so that when the timing was right, I could unleash upon the world a heard of savage pomegranates.
Actually, I have no problem with the new id thing. I usually put my email address in my missives anyways. Just so long as I'm not punished for those few occasions when I just absolutely have to post and don't have the patience to put my email address down.
---Peter
Rick - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 14:24:00 (CDT)
Sure, Cookie. Once I know who you are, I know who you are. BTW, NYC is now on our "short list" for the Next Big Move. So maybe we'll be close enough for a visit...
Rick, is it okay for regular users who have posted legit email addresses in the past to dispense with the email and location fields of the form?
Ever lurking and *thinking* about HE's stories even if I ain't doing a hell of a lot of reading these days.....
keegan
Rick - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 13:49:58 (CDT)
ALSO, DTS (if that is your REAL name, bucko) - I said Harlan made the sammich (name of "Duke of Windsor"). He didn't actually eat it, though, he gave it to me.
That's not to say he doesn't sometimes eat like a Chicago fireman, but he does moderate his diet.
Becca - just a friendly warning that you're treading on thin ice here. The homosexual aspects are immaterial - when you state a sexual relationship between Harlan Ellison and another person as fact without having any kind of reference or proof, you're engaging in unethical and possible actionable activity. I mean, regardless of how I feel about bestiality I'd be unhappy if you posted "So has Rick Wyatt sodomized any Rhesus Monkeys besides those in the San Diego Zoo? I read he was thinking about trying it again after moving to Atlanta."
ALSO ON THIS SUBJECT, A NOTE TO ALL: After the "Shaz" incident, Harlan asked me to be more stringent about the posting here, basically that he didn't want unidentified yahoos getting equal time on his website. I haven't done this yet, but it's obvious I need to do something now. I can usually track people down (for example I might yet ask PlanGraphics why someone there would be posting unsubstantiated rumors during work hours), but not always, and I continue to think it's unfair for people to be able to say all sorts of things and be unaccountable for the damage they might do.
THEREFORE I am revoking the "anonymous posting" privileges here. If you can't give a reliable method under which you can be identified or contacted, your messages are subject to be removed. If you do not want others to know your info, you can e-mail me and I will promise to not give it to anyone but Harlan.
I still will allow one anonymous post per person on the guestbook, and I will not delete messages if the person is playing nice and sharing their toys. If this does not work I will go to a registered account only posting structure although I would prefer to still allow new folks and longtime lurkers to be free to join in.
Kid Ricochet
Becca: You might be referring to an interview with Brian Hodge which was featured in Deathrealm magazine nearly three or four years ago. In this interview he mentioned that certain writers find themselves, at times, enshrouded with a public persona that exists far apart from the true reality of their lives. I seem to remember that he made some off-handed comments about the living habits and sexual orientation of certain writers (Clive Barker, Poppy Brite, Anne Rice, Lovecraft) and stated that the reading public seems to be hopelessly enthralled with the rampant spread of needless trivia, tailored misinformation and material that does nothing but support Hollywood-hype Culture. He may have mentioned something about Harlan in this interview, although I can't say for sure. He referred a few times to some of the older masters of fantasy (from the Matheson era) so anything is possible. I'll try to hunt up my copy of the magazine for you. Later - KR
Becca - Thursday, April 15, 1999 at 10:15:18 (CDT)
BTW that's 4 people including yourself Charlie. Safer for you and your torch-setting huh?
Becca
Charlie my question was legit i don't know why you're so defensive. I read an interview or something in which someone mentioned Mr. Ellison and Ed Bryant having some kind of relationship of that kind. So maybe I can't rememver where I read it... big deal. I thought you people might shed some light, ya know? I mean you swap unknown quotations all of the time. And who said i'm the only one without a email adress? I count four people in the last coupla days who dont' have addresses either. Man!
DTS
RICK: I tried that "Lord somethingorother" sandwich you told us about in a posting some time ago -- you know, the one Ellison turned you onto: creamcheese, grape jelly, Wonder bread. It WAS tasty, but...did you happen to mention to Ellison that a guy who (only three years ago) had a quadruple bypass maybe shouldn't be eating things that could make his arteries look like (to use his words) "the Holland tunnel at rush hour?" Just a thought. Out here, DTS.
I'll second the "Fall of Stardust" recommendation; it's really lovely, and I didn't mind at all that one of the extra pieces Gaiman threw in for the chapbook was one I'd already seen in Negative Burn #50 (it's a pantoum--a big wet sloppy kiss [or, should you prefer, a firm handshake]) to the first person to define what that is. Also, hie yourself over to http://www.greenmanpress.com to visit the Vess's site. It's very good, and it has work news as well as personal news on the Vesses. From what I can tell, Karen Vess is really recovering at a great clip. Oh--and a side note on that--when I e-mailed Charles Vess about his excellent Book of Ballads and Songs (Old Celtic and other story-songs, reels, skalds and such, rewritten by such luinaries as Charles deLint, Jane Yolen, Sharyn McCrumb, Gaiman, Jeff Smith and, when they're able to resolicit the next books in the series, Emma Bull and others--all beautifully illustrated by Vess), I received an extremely gracious--and generous!--e-mail within hours! Considering how time-consuming his intricately lined and detailed illustrative style, I was amazed that he could find the time to reply to e-mails.
Also--just bought a Dan Simmons novel (Fires of Eden), and love what I'm seeing of it so far. My reading of it all may be a bit delayed, however, because I'm desperately trying to get this chapter written, I'm reading the writing books by the excellent Lawrence Block, and I'm doing a ton of other things, but it WILL be read, and, if what I've already gotten through is any indication, be enjoyed.
Coupla incomplete answers:
Charlie--the gallery of this very website boasts scans of six Bauman illustrations for the Easton "Deathbird Stories." Since I don't own the book, I'm not sure if it contains any other paintings, but the six here, they's pretty purty.
Barney--I don't know if Sturgeon ever used the word syzygy, having read very little of his work. But I do know what it means. The most common (read: least scientific) usage is the rare astronomical event of Earth, Sol, and Moon lining up straight. And I have a sneaking suspicion as to why Mr. S. chose this alias--in some dictionaries (the American Heritage Second College Edition, for one) it is the last word beginning with 's'.
Also, everyone rush to your local comics store and purchase "A Fall of Stardust." It's a keen collection of color prints based on Neil Gaiman and Charles Vess' keen graphic novel "Stardust" with some fiction by Susanna Clark and Neil Gaiman, and poetry by Gaiman. Some of the prints are incredible, particularly those of Dave McKean, Mike Mignola, Paul Chadwick, Michael Zulli, and Michael Kaluta. Plus your money goes toward an even nobler cause than feeding the struggling artists: medical bills for Vess' wife, who sustained spinal injuries in a car accident last summer.
Lucas Lives
Doug - When Cassius Clay changed his nom de guerre, who argued about it? I'll be more than happy to send copies of any pics to anyone who wants em, but I only got halfway thru the roll, so unless I take a bunch of gratuitous photos of my cats, it could be a few weeks until I'm ready to get them developed. Barney - I think it was Sturgeon's collection 'E Pluribus Unicorn' (the stories are much better than the title) where he made reference to syzygy, but I don't know if Narriman had that in mind. The term had something to do with connection or coincidence or fate...something like that. As for the Sat night fiasco, I was also shut out. It was a disappointment, and it should be reported, but I'm not really upset about it, because I caught his other appearances @ the con. Besides, I got to eat a real meal and get some sleep, so it wasn't a total loss.
Mitch
*** Charlie *** What he said! By the way, does anybody remember where the word Syzygy comes from? I think it's a Ted Sturgeon reference but I am doing this via remote and so I cannot check. *** DTS *** John Wayne was a drunk, a republican, and a misogynist - 3 things that I will never be. And Chuck Norris is an old man who probably couldn't carry my gym bag. Please. Now if you have any Jet Li tapes, or John Woo's "Bullet In the Head", drop me a line. *** Lynne *** You de-lurk well. While getting shut out of a limited seat venue does happen, that was a particularly badly handled event. It was almost as bad as the reading in Atlanta sans oxygen. They should have at least put Harlan in one of the large lecture halls in Javitz instead of the single. Had I known how dire it was I would have personally thrown out the 2 drunks [crackheads? extasy? whatever] to accomodate you. Hook up with Diane Brown about how you got hosed and perhaps she can do something for you. *** Doug/Bernie*** DON'T "come out" on my account! :-) The box, the exchange papers, the chains! It was Beeyouteefull!! Not enough o's in smooth! Well done. Peace out. Barney
Amy - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 15:50:11 (CDT)
Chill, Charlie. Maybe Becca was posting a legit query. Her inquiry might have some merit, so don't go chasing her off the board just yet.
Query- Does anyone have the Easton Press, Deathbird Stories, w/Jill Bauman's illustrations? Wondering what the illustrations were like and whether it was worth seeking? Charlie
Charlie St. Pete, FL - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 12:45:34 (CDT)
DTS- The old adage applies: It's not what you say, but how you say it, in reference to HE's sexual orientation. Someone, who has never posted here and leaves no e-mail address, boldly asks if HE has continued with homosexual liaisons since his days with Ed Bryant. Then states that Asimov or Bradbury said so. This was a true flame and inappropriate. Images of Szyg-a-ma-who-gee all over again. Charlie
DTS
ALL: Though it is four years old (American translation was published late last year), I think A WEREWOLF PROBLEM IN CENTRAL RUSSIA by Victor Pelevin (ISBN: 0811213943) is one of the best short story collections I've run across in the last ten years. I haven't been this in awe of a writer since "discovering" the work of Dan Simmons or Lucius Shepard. From the title story to others like "Sleep" (a great social commentary about Russia -- and large parts of the rest of the world -- in which the protagonist discovers everyone around him is asleep) and "Prince of Gosplan," Blevin uses fantastic literature the way Kafka, Borges, and Ellison do when setting their sites on societies ills. He spins a great yarn and has writing skills to boot. Check out the first sentence to "Vera Paulovna's Ninth Dream": "Perestroika erupted into the public lavatroy on Tverskoy Boulevard from several directions at once." Man, that's smooth. (This has been your fine reading recommendation for the day). Out here, DTS.
DTS
Gotta admit, I'm (a little) surprised that Ellison's past sexual experiences would become a topic of discussion -- after all, his writing and other life experiences are probably more interesting. (That's not meant ast a put-down, it's just that, in my opinion, people's sexual lives and fantasies are always more interesting to parties involved -- outsiders have nothing to contribute but gossip). I'm also surprised at (and this may be misperception) what seems to be a defensive posture by folks coming to "the rescue" of Ellison's personal reputation. I don't think Ellison would take offensive at someone thinking or saying that he was once involved in a homosexual relationship (in fact, he once mentioned in an introduction or essay that one of the many things he regretted -- at the time he wrote the piece -- was not experiencing such a relationship...he went on to say that, because of his age, he was well past the time for experimentation so that [and the other regrets] would remain so; I can't give you the name of the intro, esssay or book in which it appeared, but I'm sure I'm right about it and, if a sturm und drang erupts, I'll look it up in my spare time this week and post it later). Anyway, the whole point is that, even if the poster who put up those comments was trying to insult Ellison (I don't think she was), there's no need to defend him unless the person doing the defending thinks, for some strange reason, that homosexual relations are a terrible and shameful thing. Remember the words of Anais Nin: "The only abnormality is the incapacity to love." Out here, DTS. (P.S. Barney...relax...we all know you're a long-standing member of the JohnWayne-SlyStallone-AhhnoldScwarznegger-kick-butt-n-drink-some-beers-realman-testosterone-club -- say, you in the market for some old Chuck Norris VHS tapes?)
Shane Shellenbarger Phoenix, AZ USA - Wednesday, April 14, 1999 at 11:16:22 (CDT)
Lynne and ALL:
I've worked on local, regional, and World level conventions for over 25 years ( Several LepreCon's & CopperCon's, PhringeCon's 1 & 2, WesterCon 45, 1978 World SF Convention, 1991 World Fantasy Convention, 1994 & 1998 World Horror Conventions, etc.)
This isn't ment as an excuse for I-CON, but as an explanation of what can happen at a convention. Sometimes you can't afford a larger venue, sometimes you misjudge the number of attendees or the drawing power of a guest (Harlan has ALWAYS been a top draw), sometimes a guest can be added to the program, sometimes they can't, all seating is limited, sometimes guests cancel at the last minute, sometimes you plan for problems and nothing goes wrong, sometimes you're unprepared and everything goes wrong.
First time convention attendees don't know what to expect unless they've been coached by old hands. I've been attending the San Diego Comic Convention since 1973. When Joe Straczynski (B5) started appearing on panels in the late '80's, he spoke in small rooms. At the height of BABYLON 5's popularity, I would get to a room two (2) hours prior to his appearence because I knew that it would be SRO for the 2,000 people that the rooms could hold.
Please do write to I-Con and let them know how you feel, let them know that they have a responsibility to newbees and what you want from them, and please do attend another fan-run convention with this in mind: These conventions are run by people who love science fiction (fantasy, movies, etc) and they don't do it for the money (conventions often lose money) or the fame (some do, but the work involved isn't worth the egoboo), but they often do it so that they can meet friends, old and new. Sometimes the friends are pros, sometimes they are just people like you and I.
FTP has been down, could not easily remove the nasty unsubstantiated comments and as they've become a topic of discussion we'll leave them until it becomes a problem. DougFinder, I'd love pics of the Doomsman chain gang (and of the ideas cans if you got that too). I've got a pretty big news entry and a great set of pics and commentary coming up as soon as I can get on via FTP to do it all...
Doug::: can we stil call you finder?
All::: Well, I hope everyone had fun at I-Con. Especially while I toiled away here in the wastelands. Actually, I had originally been planning on seeing Ellison at the Palm Springs writer's conference which was the day before I-Con. However, the best laid plans of mice and men are often passed up for cheese. I had this little thing called school which precluded me from engaging in any activity which would remove me from my studies, or my writing for that matter. That delicate balance between the two is becoming more and more unstable as I slowly approach finals, my twenty-first birthday, the new millenium, and the soon to land Shynark invasion fleet which plans on ravaging the earth while proving that their technology is far greater than ours because not even Will Smith and a Macintosh virus can stop them.
Okay, that was weird, even for me.
My point is. Life is becoming a little too weird as of late, and I intend to take full advantage of this fact. Grist for the mill, cannon for the fodder sort of thing.
---Peter (pointless babblings abound)
Okay, I'm coming out. (Bad way to begin, perhaps, given one of the most recent threads...) After a chat with Barney at I-CON this weekend, I'm shedding the cloak of 'Finder'. What can I say - his point of view was clear and well-expressed. (No, really, it was. Would I lie to you?) So now I am Doug, the poster formerly known as Finder (or TPFKAF, or that symbol that's both an ampersand and a dollar sign.) Becca - I'm sure you're a dear woman with a joyful personality who calls home once a week and never cheats at Scrabble, but without anything more substantial than "I read something like that in an interview a while ago with someone like Asimov or Bradbury", I have to lump you into the pen with those people who tell me their best friend's cousin's uncle's friend had her kidneys harvested in Tijuana. The bibliography counts for 35% of the paper grade, y'know... Mitch - great to meet you at I-CON. You snapped a picture of the Original Idea team, didn't you? (Sorry, it's all a blur) I'd love to get some copies, if possible. Barney - Great meeting you as well - you mesh well with the merry band I find myself in. I had pics developed yesterday - the "catalog shots" of the merchandise came out like gangbusters. The autograph line pics, not so much - at least not from my camera. My hope is that Bernie's action snaps are better. Let me know off-line where I can drop copies to, and the wheels, as they say, will begin to turn. Lynne - The room debacle was a disruption for a lot of people. The place was SRO a full forty minutes before the scheduled start time. I wouldn't write I-CON off all together; but I'd definitely write them with your observations and suggestions (all my time on SUNY campuses, and it never dawned on me there was no safety escort).
All - First, it was the six pack of Ideas in Virginia back in 1995 (five hand-crafted cans labeled "The Original Idea" and one "Original Rotten Idea" ("Because everyone has to have one once in a while") inspired by the tale on the back of the Dream Corridor special a few years back). Then it was the box of Spare Time for Joe Straczynski two I-CONs past which inadvertently threw a panel into chaos. So Bernie (my partner in crime) and I simply had to cook something up to give to HE at I-CON. This time - well, what image pops into your head if I say "Doomsman In Chains"? The story is that the Idea Company that serves HE in Schenectady sold him a bad idea, mislabeled as good, back in 1957 - which resulted in a lot of trouble. To make reparations, the Idea Company sent out agents to round up a number of copies of the work that resulted from that idea. Those copies were brought to HE at I-CON. Picture if you will ten copies of "Doomsman", each chained around its length and width, then attached one to the next, chain gang style, and finally secured to a central chain along the top...then, they're packed into a black containment box for delivery... The look on Harlan's face was beyond words. Fortunately, he has a great sense of humor and appreciates a good gag (and no, he didn't sentence the Doomsmen to death by shredding - they left I-CON intact, secure in their chains). He very graciously signed the prisoner transfer paperwork, posed for pictures...and even paraded us in all our insanity before the autograph line. Once I see some presentable pictures, I hope to pass them to Rick for the board if he'd like them...
keegan - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 12:45:18 (CDT)
Never been to an I-Con, but I want to compliment Lynne on her thoughtful letter about her (non)experience. It's nice to see someone complain in complete sentences, with thought, and with reasonable suggestions for improvement. This is the sort of effort that begins to change things.
If I was the I-Con people, I'd carefully consider Lynne's suggestion. Apparently, there are organizational snafus that can be avoided with careful planning. It should serve as a lesson to the next convention organizers.
In fact, Lynne's letter here is so reasonable, that if I was the I-Con people, I'd thank her for her suggestions by giving her free tickets to the next con or paying her travel expenses or something.
Amy - Tuesday, April 13, 1999 at 11:38:34 (CDT)
Lynn, you might try Mike Dauenheimer with the I-Con people. Not that you could get that time back, but he's one of the organizers. You've probably got Mr.E's attention on this, too. I know when we went a couple years back, they had Ellison on a stage in the dealer's area. There were bleachers that seated well over 200 people, and others were lining the walls and crowding in. Everyone who wanted to got to see him. I agree with you completely. They need to either open up another session (if Mr. E. would agree) or else move it to a place where everyone could attend.
Hi everybody. I am a somewhat regular lurker here on the board but I have never posted anything before. I decided to write this because I want to tell you about something that happened at I-Con this past weekend. While overall the convention was a fantastic treat, there was one huge exception for me. Since I started reading HE's work almost two years ago I had been hoping to have the opportunity to see him in person, my appetite having been whetted by the many wonderful accounts of his appearances that I have read here and other places. But not having the means to travel to California or Atlanta or other places where he has appeared recently kept me from actually being able to see him. So when I found out about I-Con, which was being held someplace where I could actually go to, I was happy beyond belief.
A little background info - In the past when I have gone to conventions, it has been to local (NYC area) ones for a single day, but because Stony Brook is a long trip, my sister and I made our plans to attend the convention all day Saturday, stay over night, and attend part of Sunday. This way we figured that we were assured of being there not only for HE's autograph signings and panels, but for his main talk (we had to make our plans before the schedule was actually available). When the schedule was finally posted, we were glad we had decided to stay over, since HE's talk ended up being scheduled for Saturday evening.
So everything was going great Saturday morning and afternoon. Really great, since we had gotten to meet HE at an unscheduled autograph signing after the Liar's Panel (Barney - I don't know if you will remember, but my sister and I were the ones you said looked "too normal to be there" on the autograph line with the face-painted-wonder behind us. My sister was the one with the long curly Nicole Kidman-esque hair, and I was the admittedly nondescript brunette next to her.) After leaving to go to the hotel to check in (the "official" hotel, a zillion miles from campus), we went back to campus to see HE's talk only to find that the room was full and no one else was being let in. I couldn't believe it! In all the years I have been attending science fiction conventions (since the early 80's), I have never encountered a situation where attendees where not allowed to go to something, in particular the "big event" of the con where the Special Guest is speaking. While I understand there are safety regulations and that registering for the con doesn't guarantee admittance to everything, I don't understand how the I-CON organizers could not have accounted for the huge crowd that they must have known HE would draw. I find it hard to believe that there is no facility on the whole SUNY-Stony Brook campus that could have accommodated everyone. And the way the whole situation was handled was really pathetic. But I am not someone to criticize without offering suggestions on how things could have been done better, so here it goes: 1. The simplest, almost-no-effort-involved thing they could have done would have been to list on the schedule "Space is limited for this event." While this wouldn't help more people see the talk, it would have let people like me, who could not stay late enough the following day to see HE's other talk (although I did manage to catch the first 15 minutes while scarfing down a sandwich in prep for the drive home), know that there was the possibility of not getting in, which had never even occurred to me. 2. They could have posted signs directing people unfamiliar with the campus from the parking lot to the building, so we wouldn't have wandered around on the dimly-lit campus as rape-bait. 3. They could have opened the stinking doors to the room, allowing the people outside to maybe hear some of what was going on. 4. They could have set up a camera and broadcasted the talk as it was happening on a screen or television in a spillover room for the people who couldn't fit in the main room. Technology is a wonderful thing.
There were also a few things they did which they never should have: 1. The two security people guarding the door should not have been smiling/joking/laughing. This was not an amusing situation, as anyone with an ounce of human compassion should have known. 2. They should not have been scrambling at the last minute to try and find a larger room, and move the already seated crowd (can you believe it!). The whole thing was like a three ring circus. 3. One of the security people directed me to the person in charge to get a refund. I went to look for her (to complain rather than to get my money back, since this was in no way an issue of money for me) but she was nowhere to be found. In any case, they should have been offering that option to people in an organized way. 4. They should not have suggested to people that they could go over and wait by the tables set up for autographs following the talk, because wouldn't it be great to get to be the first in line. Can you imagine waiting for an hour and a half listening to laughter and applause from behind those doors. Torture!
So after all the anticipation, after spending well over four hours on the road, and after all the crap I had to go through to actually get to the convention, I missed what I had most wanted to see - an hour and a half of pure uninterrupted Harlan. If you listened very closely Saturday evening you could hear me making my way across campus alternately sobbing and swearing like a truck driver. I'm not kidding. I was overwhelmed with the feeling of disappointment and frustration. I just couldn't believe that once again I was going to be in the position of having to read someone else's account of an event rather than seeing it myself. I still can't believe it, to tell you the truth.
When I returned to the hotel Saturday night and tearfully related the events to my husband over the phone (ok, I was actually stark-raving-lunatic-mad ranting), he suggested that I tell Harlan at the book signing Sunday morning what had happened, because maybe the I-CON people would listen to him if he complained about it. But I am sometimes painfully shy and I considered it quite an accomplishment that I actually managed to ask him to sign my book to me. Also, if I had worked up the nerve to speak in complete, meaningful sentences I would have much rather told him how much I admire him and how much enjoyment his work has given me than complain about something. So what I couldn't tell Harlan, I am telling to all of you, in writing where I feel more comfortable. I am writing this, along with a poison pen letter to I-CON, with the hope that this will help keep something like this from happening again, because things never change unless people are made aware there is a problem. It was a really lousy thing to do to people, and could and should have been prevented. I do have to say though that I did have a wonderful time overall, since I did get to see HE at the panels and twice for autograph signings, and he is a thoroughly engaging and thunderously cool person. I am grateful to the I-CON organizers for making it all possible (really, I am) but there is room for improvement. And I hope I can in some small way help to make things better in the future. For other people, because there is no way in hell I'll ever go to another I-CON!! (Sure, that's what I say now.)
Thanks for the opportunity to vent. I hope to eventually write and post somewhere an account of the good parts of my I-Con weekend, but I'm just not up to that yet. Although I guess right about now you're all wishing I had not decided to de-lurk myself!
Y'see folks, this is one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't responses. First off Becca/na, "somewhere I read something by somebody" doesn't exactly cut it as reportage, nor does it speak to your supposed seriousness in this matter. In the most recent issue of Dark Regions there is a longish interview with Ed Bryant where Harlan's name gets dropped more than once and nothing like that is ever suggested. The CONCEPT that either Bradbury or Asimov would comment publicly on another writers sex life is so absurd that I'll just let it pass. I can think of at least 10 other writers who's names you could have misused to better effect. Grasp at a thicker straw next time. Oh, and that was not a homoerotic reference either. I suggest you read "Love Ain't Nothin' But Sex Misspelled" and "All the Lies That Are My Life" for a few more insights into this subject. And if you come back with "he's just repressed/latent", well, us real men get that a lot. Sincerely, Barney Dannelke [HERC #1/and not a boy toy.]
Becca
Hey Charlie I'm serious. I read something like that in an interview a while ago with someone like Asimov or Bradbury.
Charlie St. Pete, FL - Monday, April 12, 1999 at 18:31:42 (CDT)
Rick- Anytime you want to remove the message below would be great!! (-: Charlie
Becca
Has Mr. Ellison done any homosexual experimentation with someone else besides Ed Bryant? I remember reading somewhere that he was thinking about trying it again after Ed moved out of his house.
I-Con was alot of fun. I went to a demonstration of Middle Eastern dance, met some of the Webderland (ir)regulars, and went to a bunch of events that featured a funny, sharp-witted guy whom some of you may have heard of. I'm refering, of course, to Peter David. Harlan was there, too, and he was terrific, especially during the panel on censorship. Plus the weather cooperated. Verdict: I dug it. A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned that I was currently reading "Our Dumb Century", a collection of satirical newspaper excerpts spanning the last 100 years. On Friday, I read the issue for June 10, 1967. Here's a sample... INSIDE THIS ISSUE: Rockers, mods declare truce (page 12); Ralph Nader: Vietnamese huts are too flammable (page 18); Harlan Ellison: 'Not everything coming out of the lab is good and beautiful and why can't someone do a good radio show like The Mysterious Traveler you bastards' (page 21) Mitch
Otto: I'll be damned if I can find it, but I know the quote of which you speak. He was speaking not of people in the abstract, but rather of himself, and of his inability to resist a dare. The actual quote goes something like, "If you tell me not to put the beans in the jar atop the refrigerator up my nose, then sure as shinola, you'll find me a little while later on the kitchen floor, turning blue, a bean stuck up my nose." Well, okay, it didn't go like that, but that was the gist.
Peter - Sunday, April 11, 1999 at 19:53:44 (CDT)
Otto::: while I canna help ye with the quote. I can let you know that asking where a reference can be found is not a bad thing. A bad thing is when we get people on this board who say, "uh, I gotz this paper thing I'm riten, and I'ze wunderin if youz'ed help. If youze could. In 1500 words or less, write a paper comparing and contrasting the character of Jefty from Harlan Ellison's "Jefty is Five" with the character of Adam from Milton's Paradise Lost. Thanx, any help would be preciated. " That is a bad thing. So do not worry, we'd only force you to analyze the collected teleplays of Gene Roddenberry and Rod Serling
Barney -- I haven't found it yet, but thanks for a shove in a likely direction.
Everyone, I've got another textual quotation question. I know -- take, take, take, that's all I ever do. Some day you'll force me to look for these myself, and I'll die of malnutrition, huddled over the complete works of L. Ron Hubbard or something else equally shameful.
Anyway -- looking for this for a paper, because it's the best-phrased statement I remember on the statement. SOMEWHERE, HE wrote on the inability of people to leave things alone. As an illustration, he said something like, "Tell a child not to climb up to the top shelf and put a bean in its nose and you will inevitably come back to find the child blue on the floor with a bean in its nose."
Sorry again to trouble you -- think of it as a way to show off your encyclopedic knowledge of Ellison. I mean, how many chances are you really going to get?
To answer a few questions:
Yes, I still like Piers Anthony. I mean, I don't read his new stuff anymore but I will also remember him fondly. Some of the books I loved I have now outgrown but some still hold up well for me: On a Pale Horse, Bearing an Hourglass, Tarot, Macroscope, the Bio of A Space Tryant series and the first few Xanth books are all still good reads, IMHO. I also liked a lot of his short story work which was collected in Anthonology.
Yes, I recommend Alan Moore's comic book Tom Strong as well. The first issue didn't really advance the story much but it was neat and charming. I would much mroe highly recommend the excellent League of Extraordinary Gentlemen featuring a team up of characters like Alan Quartermain, Dr. Jekyll, Captain Nemo, Mycroft Holmes, Auguste Dupin and the Invisible Man. How cool is that? Good luck finding the first two issue though...
I guess I forgot to mention my #1 influence in reading fantasy and SF which was, of course, Dungeons and Dragons. Not just playing but reading all the awesome rulebooks. Deities and Demigods was especially cool and led me to read Fritz Leiber's _Fahrd and the Grey Mouser_ series.
I probably still have reams of paper with the hundred of AD&D characters I created even though I never intended to actually use any of them. I never could draw so that was probably my main creative outlet. I'd make up elaborate personal histories for all of them.
Hey, it's not my fault - I was an only child! :)
-chris
Stephen - LOL. I haven't watched B5, but I remember SB. If they always ended up using the Wave Motion Gun anyway, why didn't they just use it first and be done? Shane - I collected Destroyer novels for a while, starting a few years after I saw "Remo Williams". I liked their pulpiness, and Chiun was a terrific character. But this, too, did pass, like my Ludlum phase... As for influential books, the one that really stands out for setting me on the road to spec fic was 'The House with a Clock in its Walls' by John Bellairs. This is a horror novel for young adults, about a boy who goes to live with his magician uncle (more like Arthur Waite than Doug Henning). Considerably creepy, with less fluffiness than one might expect. Mitch
DTS
OH YEAH: IF you haven't picked it up yet, get a copy of THE CROOK FACTORY by DAN SIMMONS -- it's a corker!! -- DTS
DTS
ALL: while on the subject of books & reading, here is a list of recently read and HIGHLY recommended titles: FAR HORIZONS (SF anthology); THE RETURN OF LITTLE BIG MAN; THE BEST AMERICAN SHORT STORIES OF THE CENTURY (even though it's a misnomer and was edited by the "Mr. Whitebread" of academia, thereby guaranteeing that lots of terrific writers like Ellison, Bradbury, James Baldwin and Shirley Jackson wouldn't make the cut, it's still an essential anthology); CRYPTONOMICON (Neal Stephenson); HAVANA BAY (Martin Cruz Smith); LIBERTY FALLING (Nevada Barr); THE GIRL WHO LOVED TOM GORDON (S. King); HARRY POTTER AND THE SOCERER'S STONE (J.K. Rowling -- the next two books in this 7-part series will be coming out in June and Oct. of this year!)); THE GIRL'S GUIDE TO HUNTING AND FISHING (Melissa Bank); BEAST OF THE HEARTLAND (the American edition of Lucius Shepard's collection, Barnacle Bill the SPacer -- though it is an overpriced paperback, it contains some of the finest short fiction you're liable to run across during this, or any other, year); THE BREAKER (Minette Walters); A GOOD OLD-FASHIONED FUTURE (Bruce Sterling); SHELL GAME (Carol O'Connell);REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY WEIRD STORIES (John Shirley). That's all for now, out here -- DTS.
The first science fiction I read that got me hooked? A picture book called "The Wump World" by a fantastic childrens' author no one else seems to have ever heard of, Bill Peet. If you ever watch the oldest Disney animated classics (Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, etc.) you can see his name as one of the animators.
Nobody laugh, but I got turned onto Science Fiction at age seven by the monumental series: "Tom Corbett: Space Cadet." Stop it! I told you not to laugh. -- Billy D.
Long time no hear, folks. So, let's see, what books got me started into reading science-fiction? Geez, that's a hard one. What books got me into reading? Well, that's an easy one. While most fathers would take their kids to their circus or the ball park, my Dad would thrust colorful history books into my hands (I remember the chills that ran down my spine as I gazed at a wonderful color illustration of the sinking of the Lusitania). But my first true encounter with American pop literature happened sometime in the 5th grade when, attracted by its cover, I grabbed one of Don Pendleton's The Executioner books thinking, "geez, if my Dad can read in English so can I". Granted, my grasp of English was rather rudimentary at that point. (Three years later, one of my teachers, a LaSalle brother, would confiscate a copy of The Executioner as I was showing it to a friend in class, berating me for my sinful taste in reading and how he would tell my mother that the Gates of Hell would open wide for me). Let's see, after that came the tie-in novels to the Planet of the Apes movies, then tons of Agatha Christie books and finally Peter Benchley's "Jaws" which scared the shit out of my rather impresionable mind. That I would say lay the groundwork for what was to come. As I mentioned in one of my earlier missives, it wasn't until I reached the 8th grade that I began subscribing to all these book clubs in the States from the money I was earning from my paper route. And so I began to read the usual suspects: Asimov, Ellison, Arthur C. Clarke, Ray Bradbury, Fred Pohl, etc. But also tons of thrillers: Alistair MacLean, Robert Ludlum, Ken Follett, et al. I regret not having had the time -yet- to read any of Alfred Bester's works. That is my one big regret. I still think I can catch up in my reading, that I can actually read everything that is out in the market today. And books keep piling up, reproducing like happy little rabbits. And it doesn't help that I have now turned my attention to comic books (which, by the by, folks, I strongly urge to grab a copy of issue 1 of Alan Moore's Tom Strong. Talk about bringing back that sense of wonder that's at times missing from most literature today). Alas, that's the price I have to pay for being intellectually curious.
Peter - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 09:36:29 (CDT)
Show of hands. How many people still like Piers Anthony? While it has been a long while since I've read any of his stories, I do remember him having several gems which I really enjoyed. I do remember taking an entire summer when I was sixteen and devoting it entirely to the Xanth series. While the new ones are painful to look at, some of the early ones were extremely good.
---Peter
Shane - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 09:27:23 (CDT)
I almost forgot the Doc Smith series. I haven't read those in years.
PEGARAMA: I believe the first fantasy and SF books I started reading were the HARDY BOYS and TOM SWIFT,JR books which led me to the Heinlein juveniles which led me to Brabury's R IS FOR ROCKET-S IS FOR SPACE-THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES which led me to Wells and Verne (I've read four different translations of JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH) which led me to Arthur C. Clarke (CHILDHOODS END is still my favorite) which led me to Asimov and Ellison.
The two "sf classics" I've started but couldn't get into were Brunner's STAND ON ZANZIBAR and Frank Herbert's DUNE. Maybe someday. There are too many "regular" classics that I haven't read and I regret not reading every day that my stack of unread books gets higher. Do you remember the TWILIGHT ZONE episode "Time Enough At Last" with Burgess Meredith?
My "guilty pleasure" was the DESTROYER series. When I was in high school I read one-a-day. After I read the first fifty, I stopped, but kept them in a box. Years later, a friend told me that she had read a DESTROYER novel and liked the characters. I gave her what I had, she shared them with another friend of ours and they still read them to this day.
keegan - Friday, April 09, 1999 at 08:36:14 (CDT)
Enjoying the discussion of books that thrilled young lives. Mention of the Prydain Chronicles gave me a delicious flashback. I, too, was obsessed with those books and read all of them over and over and over again.
I can't wait to turn my kids on to them.
Is it just me, or does anyone else see Babylon 5 - Crusades as a rip-off of the Japanamation classic "Star Blazers" ?
Let's see: (1)- In SB, earth is poisoned by planetbombs. In B5C, the Earth is poisoned by a genetic plague that is dropped on the planet. (2)- In SB, a research/combat ship is commandeered for the purpose of finding a cure. In B5C, the same idea is used. (3)- The ships in both SB and B5C are named the "Excalibur" (4)- Both of the ships in SB and B5C have a 'main gun' that puts out an extraordinary amount of damage at the expense of rebuild time. (Can we all say Wave Motion Gun ??)
Okay, so this is not directly related to HE. I was just wondering if anyone else had seen the similarities. I'm half expecting to see shadows of Voltron in it next.
What books got me started?
There were the Narnia books. I was most facinated by the fact that the author had the same initials as me. I also thought his first two initials were the same as my name. I didn't learn I was wrong until much later.
There were also the Chronicles of Prydain books by Lloyd Alexander. I was obsessed with those.
But I think the book that most fueled my imagination was a book called "Our Universe" by Roy Gallant. This was a (mostly) non-fiction book about astronomy geared towards kids from National Geographic. It had awesome photos. And the coolest section was about the possible forms of alien life you might find on each planet. They had illustrations for these aliens and I remember being totally enthralled by it.
After that, it was on to Tolkein. And then the Xanth books by Piers Anthony. I then got "serious" about SF by tracking down all the Piers Anthony books I could find. I also reall enjoyed the Dragonlance books from TSR while I was in high school.
I didn't graduate to HE until after college. :)
-chris
I think that I was primed for spec fiction when I was born. My house has always had a large library of the stuff. I don't think I really got into it until I started reading Zelazny at about age nine or so. That was when I began reading the Amber series. Then as I got older, I would read a lot of Isaac Asimov, a lot of Piers Anthony, Douglas Adams (I've noticed this A pattern) I'm sure there were others, but I've never read them. At one point during my formative years, I began reading historical fiction. Books like Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth (a brilliant story) and (I forget the author's name) The First Man of Rome. Morgan Llywelyn's Druids and Last Prince of Ireland (the latter having familial signifigance for me) But eventually my tastes shifted more toward horror and dark fantasy (my teen-age rebellious years) and it has only been with the advent of my twenties that I've started back toward spec fiction.
However, I really regret not having read (at least a good translation of) Dante's Commedia. I've skimmed through several bad and bland translations, but I know that there is a lot more there than I've been given. However, I'm still searching for it.
One thing I really regret reading was a Star Wars novel I read about five years ago when I was sixteen. I was taking a BART train to San Francisco every morning (BART is a subway/elevated train system) for a summer internship I was working. So I would take books to read during the ride. After the Timothy Zahn novels had hit it big, there was a huge splash of new Star Wars stories. I picked one up and read it on my train trips to and from SF. Damn was it bad. I don't really remember the story line, but it had something to do with Luke ending up on a ship which kept landing on planets and collecting different species. So basically, it was an excuse to pit Luke against every single monster and alien which had ever appeared in a Star Wars movie or book. It was truely pathetic. What really got me, was that it attempted to weave in a love story between Luke and the ghost of a fallen jedi. I believe I wept after reading it. I was genuinely touched--in the head for even attempting to read that piece of illiterate trash. It really was the beginning of a long bout of disillusionment with the star wars story. Most of my enjoyment of the series had been childhood memories, but ultimately, I grew up, and found more intelligence in other galaxies far far away.
*Otto* - Ah, you strike a memory for me. I can recall reading through everything my elementary school library had on greek mythology by age 8 or so, and working my way through most of the local library over the next couple of years (the stories, not anything analytical; only dabbled in the other mythologies). Read just about any fairy tale I could lay my hands on - definitely had the complete Grimm but I know there was more (my parents may even still have some of the books). C.S. Lewis's Chronicles Of Narnia were a favorite to cure nightmares; in particular I recall having to read for a while after watching the Shining.
'Course it never led to me writing - hated it then, hate it still. Okay, maybe hate is a strong term. Struggled with and disliked. But as for reading, I remember just ripping through the stuff like eating fresh berry cobbler. I was well primed for sci fi by late junior high and high school. Bizarrely, though, when I received a Tolkien gift set, I couldn't get into it and just have never gotten back around to it. Still on the shelf. And most ashamedly, I have to admit that I my early sci fi consisted mostly of Piers Anthony. (I can just hear the *shocked gasp* of the webdercrowd).
Which brings up a couple of really good thread-startin' questions for the webderboard....Anyone game for these? - What books got you started as a kid, and which really led you to SciFi, Fantasy, Speculative fiction, etc.? - What "classic" have you never read and regret it? - What popular stuff are you ashamed you've read? The Pegster (PS - there's a whole lot more classics I haven't read but I think Tolkien rates up there near the top, esp. since I actually have a set and they've gone untouched - except for packing and unpacking - for some 20 years).
Peter - Thursday, April 08, 1999 at 18:03:47 (CDT)
the Zork book was written by Effinger. A.B. Cover wrote the the books Planetfall and Stationfall (I read them when I was eleven)
---Peter
*** Otto *** Off the top of my head I'd have to say "Letters From the Earth" edited by Bernard DeVeto. Perhaps in "the Damned Human Race" section. My "Twain's World" CD-ROM was useless on this front as it is not properly indexed and apparently does not incorporate things like "Letters From the Earth" or "A Pen Warmed Up In Hell". Guess I can't give up on those primitive book thingees just yet. But that's OK, because re-reading ALL of Twain in a vain attempt to find one quote is time better spent than playing ZORK. I say that as the proud owner of a Zork "novel" because it was written by either Effinger or A.B. Cover. regards - Barney [who's great and good friend Tim Richmond just this week hooked him up with the 12/20/68 issue of LIFE magazine, which features the newly discovered (then) unpublished ms. for "Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer Among the Indians" and a nice reproduction of the Charles Noel Flagg painting of Twain at age 55. In case you kind folks thought the websites namesake was my only obsession. See y'all at SUNY!
Peter: D'you know, I have NEVER gotten past the friggin' maze in Zork I? I've solved the rest of the original series (plus some others), but that is an eternal thorn in my side.
Re: Writing. I had a very broad early education -- who else had children's books about Greek and Norse mythology or unlimited access to the complete Grimm? -- and, while I think this has been a major factor in my turning away from the church (it just seems like another story), I believe that I have a fine appreciation for Good Ideas. Somewhere along the way, reading all these fine Good Ideas in different books (the Phantom Tollbooth was a favorite for a very long time) I seized upon the idea that when you got a Good Idea, the thing to do was share it, preferably by writing it down. That was all I thought a story was. Maybe I still think it now, I don't know; haven't done that much self-analysis in a while. But the principle is still there. I'm an inveterate storyteller when I'm too lazy to write things, and a massive source of verbiage when I'm not. Getting all those Good Ideas (well, maybe Slightly-Better-Than-Mediocre Ideas, most of the time) out of my system.
Question and plea for general help: Y'remember when HE quotes Mark Twain about God? The part about the inevitability of God being a malign thug? (Sure, I knew you would.) Well, I've been going nuts. Can anyone clue me in as to where I can find the actual reference IN TWAIN?
When I was a little girl (3 or 4 to be exact), my father used to read to me. He didn't read me little kid picture books, he read me chapter books - The Bobsey Twins, this really cool one (we read it 4 times) about an otter, and my favorite - The Land of Oz. It used to make me crazy. He'd read me a chapter, sometimes two (if I'd been *really* good), and then he'd ask me the big question: What do you think happens next? You've never seen a kid more anxious to learn how to read than I was. I have clear memories of getting the books out and staring at the black marks, and staring desparately at the page trying to figure out how the heck my Dad got all those magic stories out of what I could see on the page. I remember the joy (and carpet burns - I laid on the carpet!) of reading The Land of Oz all by myself, as fast as I wanted, for the first time. It was such power! Anything I wanted was in a book, all's I had to do was go out and get the book.
I've been telling stories, making up songs and poems, since that time. When I was 9 or 10, my great-grandmother went to live in a nursing home, and we got these really cool little pink hardbound books. They were the complete works of Edgar Allen Poe. I loved those little pink books. Read them all, but the poetry was the best. Mostly I wrote poetry, with stories left for catharsis. As I've gotten older, the love of the story is still a very powerful drive for me. I began to appreciate actual art of writing, as opposed to just the sheer wonder of the story, when I was in college and discovered HE.
As I've gotten older, I write less poetry, and more prose. I write about the things that bug me, the things that amaze me. I just finished a Charles de Lint book last night. One of the characters is a writer, and he says that he writes fiction because he can write the emotional truth, when the factual truth just can't touch it.
Five years in theatre and all that poetry have had an odd side effect though - I write mostly in my head, telling the story over and over and over, until it flows the way that I think it should, and then it gets transcribed. This is not very efficient. I used to just slather every single empty writing surface with words, back when I was mostly writing poetry, but it's so damn difficult now that I am writing mostly prose. I just keep telling myself that it will be ok if I am the Grandma Moses of prose. I'll just keep working at it, and someday, I will finally complete the transition to prose/paper, and then before you know it, I'll be on bookshelves everywhere.
I agree with you Finder, words, and the stories they can make, are the magic and to be part of the magic is just irresistable. I couldn't stop making stories, anymore than I could stop reading them.
Stephen - Both the flame and the work habits come and go. There are days when I'd like nothing more than to drop it all in a box and stick it on a shelf; and then, in clearer moments. I look back on the tangible results - like the pair of feature film scripts I saw through from birth to completion and contest last year, and I realize when I'm off my stride, I'm my own worst enemy. Your suggestions are well taken (your second one is a hard and fast rule I use when I'm actually 'doing') and appreciated. Ultimately, I recognize that fiddling away time better spent on my writing is a conscious choice and I need to get the socket set out and give myself an attitude adjustment - and the reality check of an objective party is of benefit as well. Thank you.
As far as what led me to writing - I always had a wild imagination. I had three sisters and there weren't any kids in the neighborhood my age, so I had to entertain myself a lot. I wound up with a wild imagination. The garage was the ship, the backyard, an alien world needing a hero. I was the kid who presumed the man in the dark glasses was always up to no good. I doodled cartoons when I was five, and was scribbling short stories a few years later. But what really tied it all together for me was the dual-punch of 'The Twilight Zone' and the writing of Ray Bradbury. The former was my classroom for structure - telling a complete and compelling tale in thirty minutes; the latter, my inspiration in voice. And from that exposure came the decision that I wanted to tell some of the wild stories in my head, and the more new authors and mediums I discovered - from Ellison to Clarke to the pulp craftsmanship of Walter Gibson and Lester Dent, to The Amazing Spiderman and everything in between - the more I wanted to be a storyteller, to be able to make even one person stop and say 'Wow' the way Bradbury's "Kaleidoscope" sucked the breath from me. Lofty ambition, yes. But in a world that has become very literal and uninspired, my creativity and my ability to do something constructive with it is like a magic power to me. And I think we all need a little magic to call our own.
Stephen
Peter - UO was a terrible mockery and sham for online RPGers everywhere, I think. EverQuest is a much better product. But, hey, having helped create it, I have to say that! :)
For me, the idea of writing essays and fiction manifested out of the simple desire to upstage Dean R. Koontz. I remember reading Shadowfires (then marketed under his pseudonym, Leigh Nichols) and thinking, "Heck, I can do better than this chump!" I was 13 years old at the time. After that, I soon discovered that there was a whole universe of literature out there that I was ignorant of. Of course, the real pivotal experiences for me involved reading comic books, choose your own adventure books (like the TSR D&D/Star Frontiers/Gamma World stuff) and sharing in other, fiction-related stuff like playing RPG's and telling elaborate lies to my friends. I didn't fall in love with Dostoevsky until I hit my 20's. I'm a slave to the mainstream now, but my heart's still with the spirit of what I read as a kid. Like most people, probably. And that concludes the short-short version of today's show-and-tell.
Stephen::: I remember playing the public beta test and wondering "What in the hell is this piece of crap?" Of course, I thought that the height of the Ultima series was 4-6. Everything else has been a bit of a joke.
Which actually brings me to a question I wished to pose (boy do I love spawning new discussion topics) For the writers on this board, whether professional, or just hobbyist, what was it that first attracted you to writing? Can you define it? Was there some feeling, or drive that led you down this frustrating, lonely, yet strangely fulfilling lifestyle choice?
It's weird, but I think I can trace my "writing roots" as it were, to my childhood. Surprisingly enough, my wish to write stories came from my love of computer games. Now, I'm not talking about the pong, pacman, asteroids, shootemup, hit the ball, kind of games. I'm talking about the interactive fiction games like those by Infocom. Zork, Enchanter, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. The fact that I used my imagination to become the characters in the game led me to reading books. (no small surprise that Hitchhikers was my first novel at age eight) Even reading books, I would still imagine myself in the place of the main character, especially with Zelazny's Amber series. Then that eventually led me to try and create my own adventures and stories. I'd been writing little tidbits of things for about seven years until, oh, about three years ago when I started writing seriously. Strangely, my becoming serious about writing coincided with my introduction to Ellison. Both of which were in part a product of my reading Danse Macabre by Stephen King. Funny how things work out!
---Peter
finder- In part, it depends upon how strong your flame is to begin with and whether you've built the appropriate work habits to support it. I work 60 hours a week as a software developer/I.S. consultant, and can always manage to knock off at least one page of solid fictional prose per day. That might not sound like a lot. But, with such small goals in mind, it makes the whole process of writing much more manageable. Some of the things I do in order to sustain the necessary closeness to my fiction, in the face of a taxing work week, include (1)- writing at least one sentence first thing in the morning that continues the story that I'm currently working on, so that ideas continue to simmer in the back of my mind (2) - never stopping a scene with a conclusion, as this makes it harder to re-acquire the work's voice at a later time, and (3) - writing longhand, which forces you to carefully consider sentences before you commit them to paper. (I also do freelance work as an illustrator and graphic artist for comic book firms, small advertisement agencies, and computer game texture makers, like those who were employed to refit the graphics in games like EverQuest and Baldur's Gate.) Needless to say, I'm a busy man. I just take Goethe's dictum about life being short and art being long and think to myself, "If I don't do it, it'll never get done, and then how will I feel?" Peter - Do the words Ultima Online ring a bell? Jack - Are we the only luddites left in the world? LOL
Peter - Writing now, when time is still fairly plentiful for you, is a good plan; you'll always keep up with it to a degree, even in the so-called 'real' world, but the work world does throw water on the flame. My latest job task is writing methodologies and procedures for the entire site and believe me, sitting at a keyboard doing tech writing for an eight-hour day saps a lot of the creativity and the desire to sit at the computer at night for fun and profit.
re: discipline Well, I certainly know that discipline is one of my largest hurdles. But sometimes you just have to say, "screw food and shelter, I've gotta write." But really, I'm trying to get in as much writing as I can, now, before I get my degree. Once I get into industry and start working as an engineer, I think that writing will be a luxury that I can ill afford. Even then, I wouldn't be able to give it up entirely. To do that would probably turn me into my father.... Oh yeah, discipline. I battle this all the time, and I find that the best thing for me is to sit and write a message on this board, or send an email to someone before I get started on my current story. That way, I at least get myself into a writing mood, and then it makes the transition to writing my story that much easier. Otherwise, I can waste several hours playing a game on my computer or playstation. Heck, I spent my entire winter break trying to beat a role playing game on my playstation instead of writing, simply because I was scared of approaching a story.
Wow, I'm all over the place right now. My mind is hovering on a topic and it ain't writing. Oh well. I don't think anything I said helped any. hmmmmm.
---Peter
Ron Sarkisian Cadillac, Michigan - Tuesday, April 06, 1999 at 17:13:34 (CDT)
Just signed the guest book and noticed this chat room was available. Want to ask, since Cadillac, Michigan is mentioned in the story "The Man Who Rowed Christopher Columbus Ashore", if the author has ever been here or does he merely close his eyes and point a finger at a map. My guess is the latter. Or else he had been here and couldn't find anything cuturally compelling so didn't bother to stick around. Can't say I blame him, but the rent is cheap!
Alex - If you don't tell me there are strings, I don't know how the magic was done. But thank you for setting me straight. It's a trap I fall into myself. I was feeling pretty good when I finished the first part of my novel; that was four months ago, and I've barely looked at it since. I see only the possibility that I've taken a pretty good short-form idea and bloated it to the point of absurdity. Instant mental handcuff. Then I boot up to work it out, and suddenly sorting through old e-mail to shake out a measly extra 20k of disk space and surfing to www.bored.com seem like fantastic things to do "before I get started". Good luck in the home stretch... Jack - more power to you. If you could bottle and sell that detachment, I'd make you wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice on my own nickels and dimes. The grass, as they say, is always greener... Barney - Isn't he the author of "Hellisunk Wunderkind" and "Arland Hellisunk's Kvetching"?
Alex - I envy your natural ability to sidestep your own writing. As for myself, the world around me always seems to melt away the moment I put pencil to paper (that's right, I write longhand) and I often lose myself for a space of days. Ask my family. They think I'm mildly insane.
FINDER: Discipline? Discipline?!? Damn, kiddo, have YOU got the wrong Jew! This book, assuming I finish it soon, will have taken me just under five years--a lot of that time spent sitting at the computer, firing up the word processor--then going off and futzing around, playing games or messing about on the Net. Granted, I think my book is good--but that means nothing if I don't FINISH it, and soon. I'm getting too old to be the Angry Young Man of Letters I always pictured myself as. I figure to make a big push on the end this coming weekend, but ... I just have to steel myself and DO it; not agonize over whether it's as good as what came before. Any who want a fair read--or who may be having trouble sleeping--can feel free to email me--I'll send you a few sample chapters. Don't think of t as stroking my ego, but rather, as pushing me to FINISH it, so acclaim (and about $5000) can be mine ...
Just for a giggle I am posting my Islets of Langerhans entries regarding the "lost" works of Arland Hellisunk. I believe this is a Very Old thread but I've always been a slow learner... Recently discovered on a pallet of Atlantic Books remainders grouped with Hemingway's lost novel "The Sun Also Rises, Yet Again"
"City on the Edge of Milwaukee" [fouth season Star Trek teleplay - unproduced]
"Partners? I Wonder..." [edited by Hellisunk and Ed Bryant]
"Mex Gang" [a little known collection of stories concerning border deportation and prison violence under the pseudonym Paulo Machete}
"Platterday" [A cookbook featuring the recipe for roast stuffed Platt among others]
"Run For the Cars" [futuristic horror novel set in a mall - by Cordwainer Bird and Richard Bachman]
"Petulant Bon-bons" and "Cranky Gobstoppers" - Volumes 2 and 3 in the "Sweet Tooth" trilogy
"Riddles Without Answers" [chapbook / companion volume]
"My Fist In Your Larynx" [a volume of letters in which the author responds to his critics -1084 pages] "Strange Whine" [volume 2. more of the same - 923 pages.] Index to volumes I and II [Whitewolf - soon]
"Groomsman" [reminiscences of Arland's previous 11 wives - ask for an autographed copy at your peril.]
See Islets for how this goofiness got started. Peace.
Barney - It does seem like the Sunday program more closely resembles the Saturdays of cons past. Who knows, maybe it'll throw the rain off (the rain is a SUNY thing - four years of feeling like a drowned rat at beautiful SUNY Binghamton does not lie.) Oh, and keep an eye out - my partner in crime and myself have been at it again, and we've got a minor artistic masterpiece in the making...'cause what would I-CON be without a splash of personal creativity? Not as ingenious as a six pack of cans, perhaps, but - well, you'll see. Mitch - The way it's multi-tracked makes I-CON an experiment in discovery. All kinds of things you might not run up against at a specialized con. Where you run into major conflict is if you have a heavy interest in multiple areas - and suddenly the anime workshops, comic panels and media guest appearances are all happening at once. The best advice I can give is figure out where you want to be and when, get there on the early side and wear comfortable shoes. (And there's a Stony Brook campus map at http://ccmail.sunysb.edu/www/map/campmap.html for those of you who like to know the lay of the land before-hand.) Alex - I have boatloads of respect for your writing discipline; mine has deteriorated to a pale ghost of its former self. Of course, the difference is in ten years, I'll still be observing author panels at I-CON, while you'll be sitting on them. In that light, yours is truly the better investment of time and energy. All - For those who are interested, Viking has released a hardcover collection of Jean Luis Borges' poetry - almost 600 pages - as the second part of a three-part Collected Works series (the first being "Collected Fictions" released last September).
*** Mitch *** Ah Mitch, you rebel. There's something in the water, isn't there? *** Alex *** I've gone to over half the I-Cons and this may be the one to miss. Don't misunderstand me. The folks who run that con work their asses off [the venue is horribly complicated] but there are a couple of factors this year that look like they are going to take a bite out of the fun factor. The official con hotel is quite a distance from the convention. The Con itself is always spread over the campus. But the scary thing to me is that it seems the Javitz center will not be available for Saturday until the evening hours. Throw in some pissing down rain [trust me on this] and you have the perfect convention. Or, maybe things will work out. I'll let you know. I do wish Harlan would do some conventions in Bali or Santa Fe.
Barney - You mean that wasn't specific enough? Damn. I'll be wearing jeans, a T-shirt (most likely black, with a logo for either a rock group or another convention), and a knapsack covered with buttons. I hope that narrows it down... Mitch
You know, Barney, I really envy you and all the others who get the chance to get away to cons on a regular basis. Right now, it looks like I won't get to a good SF con until the 2001 WorldCon here in Philly--unless, of course, I get this damned novel finished and published soon (which may just happen--I just finished the monster edit and am ready for the last big push to get these three chapters done). There are so many on this group I'd dearly love to meet--and seeing Harlan (and Susan) would be a most singular pleasure! Guess I'd better finish the book if I want a good chance ...
I have to say hello to all but seven of the I-Con attendees? Too much like work. If you have ever been to a convention you know that may or may not be a joke. In Wisconsin it was a conservative estimate.
finder- Thanks for the heads-up on I-Con. Now I know WHEN everything is happening; if only I knew WHAT half of them were..and thanks to you and Barney for responding, even tho it didn't quite work out. If you guys see an overweight white guy with facial hair and glasses, come say Hi! Mitch
You know, I understand the fear being felt by those POWs' families, and, by extension, the whole country, but I dunno. It seems hollow to me. See, what the vast majority tends to forget is that WE'RE BOMBING PEOPLE here. Almost since the first day, we've left off the normal practice of only bombing military targets and have been hitting cities. NOt munitions plants; not army bases, but CITIES. However cavalierly CNN may shrug it off, we're putting tons of explosive death into population centers. This has been a war of demoralization, not of tactics, and in making it so, we're only hurting civilians--both Serb AND Ethnic Albanian. And we're worried about three guys? Guys who sined up to do this sort of thing (and who, in almost any other conflict of the last fifty years, would probably have been dead by now)? YES, I feel for their families. Yes, I want them out safely. In fact, though I was seriously opposed to the Gulf War, I still flew a flag outside that read, "Bring Our Boys Home". Because that's the important thing, right? I want the killings to stop. I want Milosevic humbled and overthrown and in as much pain as can be achieved. Even more, though, I want us to stop looking at this (or ANY conflict) as though it were all black and white, good guy and bad guy, what-our-leaders-tell-us. I've one friend of Albanian birth who was only too happy to get out of the Balkans and become an naturalized American; I've another friend of Serbian birth who is nothing but kindness and heart. I wish we would stop being so quick to demonize; to see everyone not wearing olive drab as evil. We're not sheep; our patron author has written many a polemic exhorting people to rise above ovine indifference and blind obeisance. Sure, I want those kids safe, but I wonder just how many factors contributed to their being there in the first place?
Sheriff Buck - Friday, April 02, 1999 at 14:03:45 (CST)
The website for "The Matrix," www.whatisthematrix.com, has a fantastic comics section, with original online short comics and short stories based around the film (not adaptations). Talent is truly top-of-the-line: Paul Chadwick, Neil Gaiman, Bill Seinkewicz (sp), and a collaboration between Michael Kaluta and Poppy Z. Brite, among others. Not all of the projects are yet posted, one of which being Harlan Ellison's--the Man is writing a short story for the site. Jonah Weiland's Comic Book Resources reports that DC may collect all this material in print form, if the movie sells well enough.
This is CNN.
- Buck
http://www.pioneerplanet.com/docs/col2.htm
This web site is for our local paper. I agree with a lot of what this woman says. Actually, our local paper was just full of info about what a bad situation this is and how impossible it is for us to win here, no matter what we do. What was that impossible scenario from the Academy on Star Trek? Kobaishi Maroo? Something. Wish we could talk the wall down on this simulation.
Barney, you put to words something that's troubled me since I heard three Americans were captured: if Milosevic really has it in his head to flex his perceived might, and he knows the world is watching, there's really nothing to stop him from making an example of these three GI's. Forget a fair trial - I fear the outcome has already been determined. It's what happens following that trial that worries me the most; and I believe this man fully capable of ordering their deaths, especially if he wants his point regarding NATO's actions to get across. And the American news media will feed it because that's what it's become. I think the fifth estate is oblivious to the responsibility inherent in its position, and that the bottom line of viewers and ratings has obliterated the concept of knowing when to talk, and when to shut up. This isn't to say I think news should be withheld; rather, they should concentrate on . Not an endless parade of strategists and specialists trying to predict where the next seventy two hours will lead and second-guessing every move every party involved makes. I've overheard more than a few people say they aren't following the events in Kosova because that's all they hear about on the news, and they're tired of it already. While part of that is attributable to the short attention span society we've become, the media has to shoulder some of the blame, too, for offering six minutes of news and an additional fifteen minutes of analysis every night. I'm waiting to see which network has the audacity to seek out friends and relatives of the three captured soldiers to get sound bytes on 'how they feel' (the single most screwed-up, non-meaningful question there is - how the hell do they think these people feel?)...whether those people really want to talk to the media or not.
*** Jack *** Welcome to the discussion. I used to work with a bunch of vets in the armored car business and I picture them all watching CNN/MSNBC this week and grinding all of the enamal off of their teeth. While I feel for the those 3 guys [can you believe the media was actually DEBATING their POW status!! - I bet it sure feels like being a POW to them!] I have to wonder about the instant crisis this kind of media saturation creates. Because 'the world is watching" you have the sort of WWII endgame scenarios where the Germans [and the Russians (and the US?) were engaged in cleanup campaigns that hastened the deaths of untold thousands. If that sort of instant media information had been available from 1940 to 1975 you have to wonder, would it have strengthened our resolve to act, or caused us to entirely freeze up while mulling over the consequences. I'm not even going to address which moments in history that freezing up process might have benefited by. What nobody talks about is how much of a lose/lose scenario this is. If we are right to act and NATO [acting outside of UNcharter] can stabilize the region by sending in an occupation force of ground troops, then we have to ask ourselves, when should we have gone in - post Berlin wall, yes, but when? If the whole incentive/mission/campaign/military action/war is a failure, we, and everybody else are going to be kicking ourselves and sucking up the consequences well into the next century. Oh,and speaking of media bombardment here are sone other sources-
Kosova Crisis Center (KCC) News Network: http://www.alb-net.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Kosova Crisis Center (KCC): http://www.alb-net.com ARTA News Service: http://www.kohaditore.com/ARTA Kosova Information Center(KIC): http://www.kosova.com Radio21 (English/Albanian): http://www.radio21.net/english.htm
Walking around anyplace with people dressed like Klingons next week is going to extra weird and not a fun weird.
My personal code of honor is that if somebody needs help, and you can help, then you should. As I was going home last night on the bus, we went past the federal courthouse here, where a bunch of people were protesting against this "action" in Kosovo. The bus driver and I got into a conversation on topic. His opinion was that we should stay out and just let them fight it out amonst themselves. I cannot agree with that opinion. As near as I can tell, they've been "fighting it out" for around 800 years. Clearly, they aren't getting any closer to settling it. The other problem that I have with us staying out of this is that war in the Balkans doesn't seem to stay there. So, my opinion is that we should be involved. As we should've been involved in Rwanda, and Sri Lanka and Afghanistan (did anybody see that interview with the woman film maker who was blasting Americans for not understanding that most women in Afghanistan love the Taliban? Of course, she was escorted everywhere she went by a member of the Taliban, and all the women were interviewed in the presence of their menfolk and the Taliban. What the hell did she think they were going to say?!? Oh, this one makes me really, breaking things furious.) and all the other places where these awful things happen. I don't think that we can afford to act as if those terrible things were happening somewhere out near Deneb. We all share this small planet, and I think we are foolish not to pull together, as it were.
That said, I have really mixed feelings about this bombing. I do not think that it is an effective way to get what we want out of this. Unless we commit ground troops. I am not sure that there is a way to do this first time without war. It's like anything - you have to prove that you mean what you say. I just hate all of it! I hate the terrible things that are happening, but I don't that staying out is the answer!
Gotta go, ride's here!
Alex: Do you really think things are that cut and dry? As a former soldier in Korea and Viet Nam, I can tell you from first hand experience that all political meneuvers exercised by the US are far more complex than they might appear on Dateline.
Charlie - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 11:40:37 (CST)
Sue- You're right about the voter turnout. We just had an election last Tuesday for some new councilpersons as well as 10 referendums. 8% voter turnout!!!!!! The majority of the minority rules. Even an existing councilman commented he doesn't feel the referendums that passed hold much water due to the low turn out. Ughh! Charlie
Alex, You're remarks concerning our latest foreign policy fiasco hit every nail squarely on the head.Draft dodger Bill is very bold when he's hiding-out at Oxford or in the White House. The whole thing sickens me on many levels.
Sue Luesse - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 09:48:20 (CST)
OOPS!! Thanks to ALEX for the quote...
Sue Luesse - Thursday, April 01, 1999 at 09:47:24 (CST)
Charlie - bummer :-( .. Yeah!! Throw them ALL out and start over.. but wait... has the majority of voters (which is the minority of the people) *learned* anything from this experience, so they won't repeat the mistakes of the past??.. DANG!! never mind...
Finder - thanks for the quote. I was really thinking of his entire philosophy, which the ever-wordy Jefferson wrote quite a bit about - but that is a nice encapsulation.
And, yeah - killing people sucks. I just can't get behind the concept of murder having rules, that somehow make it "moral" if the rules are followed.. Also haven't figured out a realistic method of preventing anyone from killing someone else (or groups competing for the honor of "winner" in the killing category), if they've decided that is what they are gonna do. Guess I'm with Barney on that - pissed, unable to do anything about it, and more pissed...
For those of you heading for I-CON who like to have a plan of attack, the schedule has been posted to their web site, http://www.iconsf.org/. Hope to see some of you there. I'll be in the group with the fancy shirts, the dark glasses and the mystery bauble, so if you see me, say hello! Finder
SUE; CHARLIE: The Jefferson quote which you're thinking of would have to be "The tree of liberty must from time to time be watered with the blood of patriots." I may have misremembered the oder of the clauses, but the words are all the same.Keep in mind as well that this was said sometime around the French Revolution, and it becomes a bit more strident.
ALL: I really have to say, I'm hating this whole--what are we calling this war? An "initiative"? Let's forget that what we're doing is against the UN Charter. Let's forget that we're bombing cities, not just "military targets". Let's forget that the defining moment in the Serb/Albanian conflict was in the twelfth century. Lets' also forget that Slobodan Milosevic is a ravening bastard, the best part of whom dried up on his mother's thigh, who deserves to be paraded nude save for a robe of barbed wire, through a lye-filled trench dug down the middle of Belgrade's main drag. Let's forget a whole lot of things. I just hate when we go out to war, sure of ourselves, taking a side. Yes, there have been atrocities committed against the Albanians. Still, I've seen things on the news that just don't jibe, y'know? One biggie for me was Christine Amanpour on CNN reporting about the sad funeral of a woman and baby killed by a Serb attack. No one seemed to notice that the cemetary in which she stood was dotted as far as the eye could see with Orthodox crosses. Gee ... aren't the ethnic Albanians Muslim? There have been others, but most damning is the way we've demonized the word "Serb". There have, unfortunately, been massacres carried out by both sides. Another BIG problem I have with this thing is how well we're playing into Milosevic's hands--after all, we're the aggressors interfering in the inner workings of a sovereign country, right? Milosevic is just standing up for his people against the big bad Uncle Sambo, right? We're the ones trying to carve up Greater Serbia to give away, right? These are the feelings which can't help but run through people's heads as they sit in shelters, waiting for the bombardment to stop. Never mind that they're wrong--rather than pressure Milosevic to back down, we're making the pusnuts asshole a hero. Great job, America! But for all that, the thing I find most galling is why we've suddenly developed such a heightened conscience about the suffering of others. Oh--wait--we stopped the massacres of the Tusis and Hutus, right? We were the ones who put an end to the tribal killings and terror in East Timor, weren't we? We made Turkey, Iran, and Iraq stop killing the Kurds--wasn't that us? Didn't we free the Tibetans? We ended the careers of Allende in Chile, Pinochet in Argentina, Idi Amin in Uganda, whassisname in Myanmar (Burma), Pol Pot in the killing fields of Cambodia, and went to war as soon as we heard of the internment, starvation, and mass executions of Jews, Gypsies, gays, dissenters, and so many more in the Third Reich ...
Oh; we didn't, did we? I know full well that things always have to start somewhere; I've nothing against taking a stand for human rights--but if you do, then TAKE THAT STAND> Again and again. As often as it proves necessary. Else what has been done; what message has been put forth when we rage against one atrocity while turning a blind eye to so many others?
Are twenty thousand Albanians somehow wrth more than two million Cambodians?
Hmm. I've rambled and ranted enough. Back to the regularly scheduled fun, kids--but be sure to read the Author's Note to Twilight in the Cupboard, okay? As the Mam says: "PAY ATTENTION."
Charlie - Wednesday, March 31, 1999 at 15:00:24 (CST)
Sue- Gotta love Jefferson. However, all the power isn't always at the top. I'm dealing with a parking situation around my house and office and I spoke with a councilwoman today who is sympathetic to my situation. However, the problem is all the power is with an autocratic, ectothermic poseur (got that term from HE) who heads up the traffic dept. The paper has even referred to this guy as the Traffic Czar. Anyway, when the top guys & gals go, be sure and take everyone else out. (-:
Jim Hess <104656.765@compuserve.com> - Wednesday, March 31, 1999 at 14:56:21 (CST)
Rick: Didja know your 'webmaster' address don't work? Also, for those (other than Rick) who are interested, the latest issue of OVOV is out. Send me an e-mail at the above address for more details. (And, please, put "OVOV" in the subject header. I'm getting about 5 to 6000 emails a day and would hate terribly to delete yours.)Until next time. . .
Sue *again* Luesse after this , I'll go back to lurking again - you all hope ;-) - Wednesday, March 31, 1999 at 13:30:14 (CST)
Otto - Mao wasn't a Revolutionary, except in his own PR proclamations.. He was a dictator, not very different from Hitler or Stalin or Franco (his peers). Dictators tend to put nice 'names' and justifiations on their Final Solutions, Pograms, and Purges, so folks will feel it's about something 'noble' instead of the simple consolidation of power, and elimination of potential threats to that power, that it is - and people won't go getting the idea their "hero" doesn't have 'their' best interests at heart.. Did you know that most prisoners in the Gulags of Russia wept when Stalin died? They didn't know Stalin was directly responsible for putting them there, still believed the propoganda of their hero, still believed "if Stalin only knew" they would be freed.. The kind of Revolution Jefferson advocated was to prevent exactly that sort of concentration of power - by not allowing individuals or small groups the time to consolidate power they can abuse.
Sue Luesse - Wednesday, March 31, 1999 at 12:40:38 (CST)
Good point Charlie. I was told the same thing in college. Rebellion, not Revolution.. Seems that fine distinction is based on the Colonists not making plans to topple the Monarchy they opposed, just severing their ties.. Never been sure why that applied, since an intervening ocean pretty much made that a moot point at the time. We can only wonder if it would still have been a "rebellion" instead of a "revolution", and what the "intentions" towards that monarchy might have been, had there been a feasible way of carrying them out geographicly.. As for Jefferson, he was a radical in his time (or any time, I guess). He advocated a complete restructuring of govenment by the people, "by force of arms" if the current powers-that-be would not obligingly step down every generation or so. In his view, any concentration of power becomes entrenched and self serving over time, to the detriment of the majority, and requires purging. Radical, yes - but I'm not so sure he got it wrong.. Jefferson was most definately a Revolutionary.
Otto
*shudder* Just imagining what the country would be like "if the founding fathers had gotten their way." Mao Tze-tung, if you'll remember, insisted that China be in a permanent state of rebellion. There's only so many things you can rebel against, and so much energy you have to do it . . . Anyone else remember the Cultural Revolution?
Sue- Did Jefferson say "revolution" or "rebellion" every couple generations? There is a subtle (or not so) difference. My recollection was "rebellion". I recall my college history prof. emphasising that the Revolutionary War was actually a rebellion and not a revolution. ALL- Anyway...Seeing Ear Theatre, Vol.2 , w/HE's introductions and his story "Wanted in Surgery" is out or available. I just placed my order. Charlie
finder:::I think that a constitutional convention is possible in this day and age because, historically and legally, no one can deny its prescedence. Besides, given our country's propensity for extreme reaction, and given the current, and building disgust for how federal government is being run in all three branches, I can honestly see the tensions between the people and their chosen representatives reaching a head and exploding. No matter how much our leaders wish for us to forget this fact, we are a country built on revolution. And should there ever come a time in the near or distant future, when our representitives in government completely disregard our interests (as almost happened with the clinton thing) then it behooves the populous to take action. Should the call for convention ever come, it will be by force of will from the people. This country can rarely pull together on any issue, but when it does, it has shown that it can move mountains.
All::: I managed to snag myself copies of Gentleman Junkie and Over the Edge. OTE has got a nice Kent add in the middle of it. sheesh.
---Peter
Wow! Whole lotta fist shaking going on.. Like old times.. ;-) .. Gotta throw my armchair quarterback $.02 in.. (warms up the pitching arm)
Religion: Well come on, now. Religions are the same as business and governments - a group that empowers members by association, promising (and occasionally delivering) real and tangible benefits. This is not to be confused with personal beliefs. Religions usually begin with one person, who is without peer, and the ipso facto leader everyone else takes their marching orders from - ie they begin as cults. The successful ones develop a chain of command, and codify rules of behaviour - so they can outlast the death of the founder. Please note - this does not necessarily have anything to do with the philosophy of the origonal founder. I think Christianity is a good examples of that. It only has to do with human nature, and the followers. And in fact, most religions don't really "get on a roll" until the founder is dead - so the teachings can be interpreted without correction by the founder, removing those embarrassing bits of the philosophy no one understood or liked.
True, most people are decent one-on-one - but they may not be nearly as decent as part of a group they have chosen to belong to - which makes sense, since they get kicked out of the group if they don't go along with the group rules.. The most you can expect a group member to do if they disagree with a group activity is privately bitch and abstain, and publicly keep silent in tacit approval. ;-) I've been kicked out of enough groups to know about these things..
Right To Bear Arms: ummm.. read up on Revolutionary War history and philosophy.. This little bit of anarchy was deliberate - and if Thomas Jefferson had gotten his way, we'd have a revolution every few generations to keep the governmnet 'in touch' with the people. An armed populace is no easy pickings for a government to subjugate. This was a front-and-center sort of issue for that first Constitutional Convention, which only convened due to a successful rebellion of an armed populace against what they perceived as tyrany. They seemed to think that if all men are equal, they all have the rights formerly reserved to 'rulers' - like the ability to guarantee their rights with force of arms.. Is that too obvious? You can argue that times have changed - but there isn't much of a leg to stand on for revisioninst interpretations that limit or exclude the right of the individual to own weapons in a military sense - that's *exactly* what the Founding Fathers meant. If you wan't to go strictly by their origonal intentions, we should have stores selling tanks, missiles, and bombers...
One last comment - the most accurate reflection of human nature so far mentioned which I've read in this discussion, is that bigotry and killing last. Gotta ask yourself "Why?" on that one..
Whoa!! Way too much serious head-stuff! Gotta go ride the bike and dummy down..
Seizing a rare chance to tie two threads together, let me *highly* recommend the book "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong. It chronicles Judiasm, Islam and Christianity from their inceptions through today. What really jumps out at you is that the way we think about god today is not the way folks have thought about him through the years. One warning: the book is so jam-packed, I get through only about 3-5 pages per week. -- Billy D.
Otto - Hahahahaha; they'd have loved that one back at St. Pat's. They reinstated papal indulgencies? Amazing what they can slip through in a four hundred plus page cathechism. Peter - Do you thing a Constitutional Convention could even be held with the current state of the Government? We've essentially got a system that's top-heavy, bloated and, with the exception of elections every two years, full of people who can do whatever they want and shrug back to their constituancy. I think for any reform to truly work, the current system needs a top-down rethinking (why, for example, does my Congressman need a staff of twenty to accompany him to Barbados for a three-hour trade meeting nestled in the midst of a week of sun and surf on the federal ducket?) Just as the gun community will go ballistic (no pun intended) if you try to change their perceived freedoms, I think the politicians would go through their own brand of distress if they felt the same thing. Try taking away their ability to vote themselves a pay raise, and propose tying it to their job performance (like every other job on earth) and the BS will roll in currents down Capitol Hill. Just my two cents... Finder
Unfortunately, too many people believe that the original ten amendments to the constitution begin with "Thall Shalt Not..." and that when Chuck Heston came down from Mount Sinai, stone tablets in hand, the second amendment said, "Thall shalt not impede my right to arm Bears" thus the NRA was formed. However, recent goings on in the capitol have convinced me that neither the politicians we elect, nor the justices of the supreme court, have an inkling of an idea as to what our glorious constitution actually says. This country needs a serious restructuring of the government just short of a constitutional convention (should that happen, I know of a lot of militia groups who are going to go on the offensive)
---Peter (stepping of the soapbox after a good yell)
Whenever you get ticked off at the Roman Catholic church, take a deep breath and feel free to borrow my own private mantra: "Pope's hat . . . phallic symbol . . . Pope's hat . . . phallic symbol . . . Pope's hat . . ."
My favorite bit is the reinstitution of papal indulgences for the year of Jubilee. Can't remember the last time I heard my father scream with rage quite so loudly.
Sorry if I've offended anyone. Actually, I only find the theoretical Catholic church objectionable. Most of the real, live Catholics I've met are extremely decent people.
Barney -It would be broadcast suicide for a network to slap a Dan Rather up on the screen and paint Christians in anything but a cozy light. It'd play in the bible belt, no matter how true it is; it would be trumpeted as just another indication that the good and wholesome values of the various Christian groups is being held up to scorn and ridicule by the hidden evils of the morally corrupt news media. It doesn't help that Christian groups (and Catholicism is a big offender in this regard) have political motivations; nor that the media, allegedly impartial and unbiased, is actually either sensational to the extreme, or sadly PC while protecting their own interests - and neither does a service to anyone in their current form. And I think you're absolutely right: if there were economic concerns, not only would it have been locked down, but the military would hardly have waited for NATO...all part of the all-powerful 'agenda' that no one has a copy of...DTS - Going back to my Catholic schooling, the clergy who taught religion class were adamant that events such as the Crusades had a holy aim. At the point where independent, rational thought kicked in during college, it was actually scary to think these people who'd taught religious doctrine could believe the Children's Crusade and the Inquisition and what not were anything but notes from the lunatic fringe. I fear we will always have religiously bannered conflict so long as either (or both, or all) sides refuse to acknowledge their true histories, their natures and their honest aims. In my opinion, aside from the various conflicts within their teaching, much of the Catholic church is so much smoke and mirrors, and they really depend on the principle of blind faith from the majority of the congregation to survive...and I don't know if I could get behind a total gun ban, but the penalties for improper handling and illegal use could stand a critical overhaul (the authorities can't quell the sale of unregistered handguns, but by golly, they'll take down people making and selling counterfeit Beanie Babies or bootleg CDs? Puh-leeze. Does anyone remember the definition of "Priorities" anymore?) Mitch - I'd help if I could, but I'm part of a small army descending on a friend's apartment for I-CON. It should be an interesting weekend...I wish they'd release the schedule, though - I've got some logistics to plan...ALL - Has anyone heard anything about Alan Rudolph's film version of Vonnegut's "Breakfast of Champions" with Bruce Willis as Dwayne Hoover and Albert Finney as Kilgore Trout? My understanding is it's already been screened in Germany, but there's no firm US release date. I was wondering if there was any buzz either way And I know we're very close to April 1, but I'm really not pulling your legs on this...no, really... Finder
DTS: Sex and our bodies not BAD things? But good God - just let Jocelyn Elders suggest that masturbation might not turn one into a madman werewolf, but might actually be a healthy outlet, and she had to kiss public office goodbye.
Wylie - Tuesday, March 30, 1999 at 11:44:08 (CST)
DTS: you sound like someone I would vote for :)
DTS
BARNEY: I noticed the Christian/Muslim thing...in fact, there's been an ongoing war between those groups since the 15th or 14th century...since the days of ol' Vlad the Impaler (who is considered a hero in some circles, because he defeated the Turkish/Muslims). Even though the atrocities and war crimes committed Milosevic should be stopped (and not ignored, the way those protesting against the current NATO bombing campaign managed to do), the fact that these religious and ethnic battles have roots that run back hundreds of years gives one pause. Can we ever hope to REALLY bring peace to the Balkans? Although I hope for the best, I expect the worse. Nationalism, provinciality and (especially) organized religion have only added to the inherent stupidity that we humans so often display through our words and actions. I don't envy Clinton his position of power at this point in time. (Actually, if I ran on a Presidential ticket, I would propose things like getting rid of handguns and semi and automatic weapons, teaching children that even the Christian religion -- mentioned so often in schools now -- is a supernatural belief based on nothing more than myth and heresay, that television and video games are not essential entertainment, that sex and their bodies aren't BAD things, etc., etc., etc. -- in other words, I'd be a prime candidate for an assassin's bullet). Out here, DTS.
*** Mitch *** I'd offer but I'm already splitting the room with Tim Richmond and possibly a floor sleeper on Friday or Saturday. And, you said it yourself - you're quiet. It could never work. *** Shane*** I read "Grumbles From the Grave" when it came out and mostly remember the whining about editors pulling the sex scenes out [must re-phrase that] of the juveniles. Since these were written in the 1950's and early 1960's and they were marketed as YA titles it's hard to work up to much moral outrage. Imagine how boring they'd be if they left the sex and took out the politics and ideological ramblings. ** Hey folks ** Have you noticed that, for all the talk of refugees, displacement, and ethnic cleansing, the networks shy away [ie. never mention] that this whole Balkan thing is really about Christians slaughtering Moslems? Are they worried that if they tell the Christians the CNN/poll media feedback reaction will be something on the order of "And the problem with that is...?" To bad none of those people had oil stockpiles to protect. That region would have been locked down safe and tight decades ago. Really pissed in PA.
Wow. My bedside reading is pretty light...'The Golden Compass' by Philip Pullman. A terrific adventure tale in an alternate Earth. I just bought the sequel, 'The Subtle Knife', and will be starting it soon... 'Our Dumb Century', from the fine folks at The Onion. A satirical look back at the last 100 years. "Fat-packed with big-a$$ laffs!"; a bargain at twice the price. It seems that the hotel plans I made for I-Con might have fallen thru. Would anyone have some room to spare? I'm quiet, I fold neatly into a steamer trunk, and I'll even chip in for the bill. It won't be a disaster if I can't find space (I live within train distance). Thanks. Mitch
Shane - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 10:07:09 (CST)
GRUMBLES FROM THE GRAVE was compiled by Virgina Heinlein.
Shane - Monday, March 29, 1999 at 09:31:07 (CST)
Barney: Have you read Heinlein's GRUMBLES FROM THE GRAVE? I was disappointed.What good is a tell-all book that doesn't name names?
Otto: While not as humorous as BIMBOS, you might find Asimov's MURDER AT THE ABA interesting due to the casting of Harlan as the detective.
Otto: I know about "Bimbos..." but I'd never been to con before when it crossed my path. Too bad...It is supposed to be great.
Re: "Starship Troopers" -- I was actually very much puzzled when I heard that the novel was being made into a movie, as my initial impression of the book was that it was more a philosophical and moral tract than anything else. I believe that, as a result, even though much of the plot has been retained for the movie fairly faithfully, the flavor is gone. No more explanations of why we do this, only showing how. I'm not suggesting that the philosophy should have been retained, exactly -- God, how boring -- but maybe if you find yourself losing the heart of the original, you should let it go . . .
Sheriff Buck: Can I assume you moniker is a remembrance of "American Gothic," one of my personally most-mourned shows? "Caleb, never let your conscience be your guide . . ."
Personally, I've just finished reading a used copy of "Bimbos of the Death Sun" by Sharyn Mccrumb, and laughing my ass off. How come no one ever told me about this before? It's every Con I've ever been to. Do you guys know about this?
While Heinlein was, let's say for the sake of this discussion, a hawkish libertarian, he had a very keen sense of the uses and misuses that propoganda can be put to. I think, if you are a young man, there are quite a few lessons to be found in Heinlein regarding military patriotism and how much easier it is to program and reprogram someone who is young to think a certain way. Heinlein had a very well developed sense of historical irony and a better sense of humor than he is often given credit for. Even when he is dead wrong [to my way of thinking] he is often asking the reader to ask themselves why they think a certain thing and to evaluate their reasoning. That's a lesson that doesn't get old. Actually, as I type this my head is positively swimming. I am watching Sunday morning talking head crap on MSNBC / CNN / and ABC on the situation in the Balkans and a few minutes ago read about 15 e-mail letters from Serbia that were kindly forwarded to me [half from Rutgers and half from Israel] talking about the NATO airstrikes and how it looks to the civilians over there from on the ground. All of this one day after watching "The Manchurian Candidate" again. 24 hours of this just makes Heinlein imploring us to constantly ask "who is in charge here and WHY? [his central theme in a number of his books and stories] and Harlan begging us to remember to engage the critical thinking part of our brains whenever possible a noble pursuit. Now I'm going to try to explain to my daughter that might doesn't always make right. Pissed in PA.
Thought I was done...anyone curious about Starship Troopers, the film, should watch the DVD version. It has a commentary track by the writer and director which shows more intelligence and irony on their part than they seem to have gotten credit for. Keep in mind that once you try DVD you may never want to watch a movie in any other format. Anyway, Barney, I don't know if Heinlein was writing tongue in cheek, although I'd like to think he was, but these guys were for certain.
Wylie
Anyone read the new F&SF yet? "The Embians" by K.D. Wentworth is so wonderful I don't want to read anything else yet, for fear of losing the taste (color). Find it and you will understand. Sweet dreams, gang. Wylie.
Ah, a week to catch up on some real reading. My nightstand has Donald Barthelme, 40 Stories. He can be good when he's not being deliberately inscrutable.
Some HP Lovecraft collection.
Faulkner, The sound and the fury. I'd been told that this and Absolom, Absolom! were must reads
Gardner, the art of fiction. I had so many sources recommend this one at once, I had to buy it.
Neil Gaiman, Stardust. Haven't cracked this one open yet
Dangerous Visions. I'm slowly working my way through Farmer's story
(listening to) Stephen King, Insomnia. What can I say, I listen to this before I fall asleep each night. There is something rather soothing about falling asleep to a story called insomnia. (waiting for) Stephen King, The Girl who Loved Tom Gordon. I hate the fact that this hits bookstores AFTER my spring break.
---Peter (I'm gonna get my weeks worth of rest.)
Barney - Saturday, March 27, 1999 at 13:26:51 (CST)
'the WAY Hugh Hefner etc...
*** Sheriff Buck *** Welcome! Glad you can stay! How bizarre. It seems most everybody on the list reads the Hugh Heffner used to pay attention to women. Namely as many as possible, as wide a variety as possible, etc. No wonder our local hero is the poster child for ADD. This week it's "The Wild Blue and the Gray" by William Sanders [alternate post civil war universe stuff] , "Kink" by Kathe Koja, "Paris in the Twentieth Century" by Jules Verne [overrated], "The Death of Methuselah" by Isaac Bashevis Singer, "Memory & Dream" by Charles De Lint, "Consciousness Explained" by Daniel C. Dennett [co-author of "the Mind's Eye" with Hofstadter] and "Humans" by Donald Westlake. Oh, and a nice OP reference book "Adventure Heroes:Legendary Characters from Odysseus to James Bond" with a really obscure Ellison factoid. Namely, his first published letter was in Real Fact Comics #6 (1947) "Forever War/Forever Peace" is a great chunk of work. Especially as the freezre dried antidote to Starship Troopers, which, itself 'may' have been tongue in cheek. I think it all means more if you are at least 35 and grew up with Vietnam the way my daughter claims to have grown up under the shadow of the O.J. Simpson trial. Haldeman is also one of the friendliest writers I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. Really easygoing and personable. **Rick** "Et tu Babe" ROCKS! Also, "My Cousin, My Gastroenterologist" is a must read. I think that has the 'car bomb' chapter, which is fun to read out loud at parties while drunk. Or, um, so I've heard. ***Everybody [wang chung, oh, never mind...]*** Say hello at I-Con, ReaderCon or the World Fantasy Con this year if you see me. Be seeing you.
I think I'll pop in with my own list of bedside current reads. For the most part, I'm going to eschew line breaks to save your scrolling fingers. THE FOREVER PEACE, Joe Haldeman--very good, but in my opinion, a bit light for all the acclaim given it. THE BEST FROM F & SF, 16th Ed.--good stories, and not too dated. A few issues of the manga digest PULP. Some old LONE WOLF & CUBs, Kazuo Koike (Goseki Kojima, art)--great stuff, intro'd each issue by Frank Miller. SWORDDS AND ICE MAGIC, the last in Fritz Leiber's Fafrhd & the Gray Mouser books--more jokey than the others, more playing with the legends, but still great fun as always. NIGHT SHIFT, Steven King--short stories, which I always thought was King's true calling. About half of the first MAGE series by Matt Wagner, with the Grendel back-up stories--an extremely well-done comic. The Grendel action figure on the credenza over my bed (next to the new figure of SIN CITY's Marv [created by Frank Miller]) looks on approvingly. THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SKY, Arthur C. Clarke--great short stories. Two nonfiction books I'm reading for the millionth time--THE GREAT SHARK HUNT by Hunter S. Thompson and THE GREAT MAMBO CHICKEN AND THE TRANSHUMAN CONDITION by Ed Regis--GET THIS BOOK. If you like anything about Feynman, or just want to see what people are doing to bring themselves into the future, this is required reading. I just finished THE LITTLE SISTER by Raymond Chandler. Chandler was obviously deep into both his cups and his depression while writing this, but hell--it's Chandler. The copy of BALLADS by Charles Vess I bought for my sister, with the illustrated old faerie ballads written by authors like Neil Gaiman, Sharyn McCrumb, Charles De Lint, and others. Great stuff--and Vess answers his own e-mail! Lastly, I'm rereading my copy of Robin Pen's THE SECRET LIFE OF RUBBER-SUITED MONSTERS, having just recommended it to a few friends and pledged to get it for a few others--where else can you find a book of sf film criticism that ties together Zen teachings, Godzilla, Brechtian analysis, Blade Runner, and a monochromatic Lauren Bacall? This is another must-buy for this group, I think; Pen has just informed me that though out of print, the folks at Eidolons Press (who publish the sf magazine of the same name, drawn from the story and approved by Harlan) intend to prin up more in time for WorldCon. Well. I'm going to go and finish the books above.
Usually I lurk, refraining from comment unless I've stumbled upon some HE news that hasn't worked its way onto the board yet. But an opportunity to ramble aimlessly about what I'm reading is too tempting to the self-indulgent likes of me, to pass up. So:
The Unbearable Lightness of Being - Milan Kundera A situation much like Rick's "Tuesdays With Morrie," in that it was recommended to me as "life-changing," and, while I find it good, certainly it's not -that- good. Interesting, post-modernist, but not quite as philosophically deep as Kundera pretends it is.
Sin City: Family Values - Frank Miller Yet another case where I picked up the latest volume from a brilliant author I'd liked for a while, and discovered an HE "money quote" on the cover. The first full-length Sin City tale whose story approached the genius of Miller's art.
Le Malentendu (en francais!) - Albert Camus No. Which is to say, I didn't enjoy reading this play much at all, because Camus completely abondoned drama for the sake of philosophy. Allegory must lie under the surface to be effective. If the "deeper" level is the only one on which the piece works, then it can't work at all.
Hawkmoon - Michael Moorcock God, this guy's good. And, typos be damned--the folks at White Wolf are truly men of God. It is a Good thing they do, bless them.
Dreams of Terror and Death - H.P. Lovecraft After reading Lovecraft's "Bloodcurdling Tales of Horror and the Macabre," I thought, "gee, that man is whack. Really whack." I was right. And O! how glad I am to have been right! These stories really disturb me, not really becuse of their content, but because they were written by a member of my species. Wonderful introduction by (to appropriate HE's phrase) Fate, or Destiny, or Neil Gaiman, or whoever it is that runs the Universe. (Hint: Gaiman)
OK. That's it. And also: after four years of consistent lurking, and posts that average out to, let's say, annually...I think I'm going to try becoming a Regular Customer. Please please please, treat me nicer than that kind Mr. Namirran who at your hands suffered a fate worse than death: Ridicule. Why O Why did y'all hafta go an' make light of Mr. Garden like ya did? T'ain't like Syzygy Ne'er-a-man ever said nothin' childish and demeanin' about Unca Harlan, or HE's fans. Did he? Like, perhaps, when he first showed up, maybe? I do seem to remember...no, wait! Now I recall...that was just an experiment! S.N. didn't mean those things he said! Silly board members, you failed to realize your true natures: lab-rats!
Oh, dear. I suppose I shouldn't have disturbed that newly-packed dirt. The grass was beginning to grow so nicely--back into the box you go, quielty, S.N...there's a good corpse...
Sheriff Buck
Ok Shane, now I am going to spend all weekend trying to figure out which one of the many institutions of higher education in these parts, has a lecture program that isn't during the lunch hour that I could get to that I could talk into paying HE's speaker fees. Hmmmmm. You know, almost makes me wish I had a car.
Well, the short list of books that I am reading right now (I do find it interesting to note that this is the first group of people who read like I do - more than one book at a time. Knew there was a reason I like it here so much!)
The Art of Fiction - John Gardner - read all the notes about it and went right out to the library and checked it out.
A Traveler's History of Paris - can't remember who it's by, but I'm about a third of the way through it. Yes, I am planning on going back to Paris.
I also just finished Mercedes Lackey's new one.
Oh, and I just got Charles de Lint's new anthology - Moonlight and Vines (I think. It might be Moon and Vines ).
Anyway! I'm off to share trip pictures and consume large quantities of martinis!
Bon Jour!
Shane - Friday, March 26, 1999 at 13:15:07 (CST)
Peter: I paved the way for Harlan to speak at Glendale Community College and Arizona State University West this way:
I contacted the person who organized his talk at Harpers College in 1998, asked questions about the venue, H.E.'s fee, details on lodging, ticket sales (the school sold 350 tickets, probably could have sold 500), Harlan spoke to a couple of classes (don't ask about the kid who thought that INDEPENDANCE DAY was a good film) and generally made up my mind that I'd find a way to do this thing.
I'm currently enrolled at G.C.C., so I contacted the chairman of the Speakers Forum, Hannes Kvaran, and presented the idea to him. Kvaran's son had read Harlan, so he was somewhat familar with his work. The initial stumbling block was Harlan's speaking fee which was more then the honorarium the Speakers Forum usually pays. My wife, Lauren, spoke to her friend, Lohman, who is involved with the Maricopa County Community School District Grants. He had information about a LodeStar grant, passed that along to Kvaran, who wrote the grant proposal in conjunction with ASU West. The grant was approved, the details were handled, and viola: Harlan appeared with his trusty life-partner, Susan, and a great time was had by all!
I doubt anyone cares but I'll copy Rick's example and share what I've read lately:
FEAR by L. Ron Hubbard. A really good novelette although I'd hesitate to call it great. It seems to be worshipped by many horror writers and I don't quite see that but it's certainly a good read with a hell of a twist.
UNDERSTANDING COMICS by Scott McCloud. If you care about comic books, this one is required reading. I'll be honest - I'm not a fan of the underground comics that have obviously influenced McCloud the most. I like a lot of the boring old Marvel and DC titles. But that didn't impede my ability to enjoy and learn from this great text on the medium.
THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldeman. I'm guessing most of you have read this one already. If not, well, do it. Inarguably an SF classic. To borrow a hoary old cliche, "It works on so many levels."
And I want to strongly second Rick's recommendation of Genius; The Life and Science of Richard Feynman. It is, without a doubt, the best non-fiction book I have ever read. It might be the best book I've ever read. Along with his great book _Chaos_, James Gleick has established himself as one of my all-time favorite writers. I just wish there was more!
OKAY, you finally got to me. Here is what is on the side of my bed right now (either recently read of in progress):
THE SEVEN WHO FLED by Frederick Prokosch and THE GORMENGHAST TRILOGY (Titus Groan, Gormenghast, Titus Alone) by Mervyn Peake. I'm about midway through both, I find I can only read an hour or so at a time before the prose overwhelms me. Both are HE recommendations and both demonstrate that Harlan consistently favors authors who are deeply descriptive and who have an amazing command of the language. I love these books but DAMN they are hard to read. Peake is the first author in years to make me keep a dictionary near the bed, and sometimes even that isn't enough and I have to go unshackle the Shorter Oxford. But geez, there are some REAL gems of writing, sometimes individual sentences and phrases, that just make you gasp.
TUESDAYS WITH MORRIE by Mitch Albom. Just finished this one. It's not as much a revelation to me as it has been to the three or four people who told me "you have to read this book", but I agree it's a great little book and a wonderful life lesson. Browse through it at your local bookstore and see if it hits a nerve.
THE FEYNMAN LECTURES ON PHYSICS - I've got through the first 9 lectures/classes of about 50 in this first volume. Richard Feynman gave a great gift in preparing and delivering these lectures. I'm worried though, I'm about 8% of the way through the course and already my brain hurst. If anyone hasn't read about Feynman, go pick up James Gleick's (sp?) GENIUS.
MEDITATIONS by Marcus Aurelius. Geez, those Stoics believed some funky stuff but the more I read of them the more I like them. Someone fucking with you? Someone pissing on you azelias? Screw 'em, it's their error, not yours. If they're messing up society try to help them but otherwise live your own life.
A FAREWELL TO ARMS by that Hemingway dude. Finished last week, probably needs to go back on the shelf. Now *THIS* is a book, although it sure has a train wreck of an ending. How can people even put THE SUN ALSO RISES in the same class?
ZEN IN THE ART OF WRITING by Ray Bradbury. Haven't even cracked the cover on this one.
Finally, ET TU, BABE by Mark Leyner. Grabbed this one off the bookshelf this week and read it again because I needed a break from digging through GORMENGHAST. Leyner wants very hard to make Hunter Thompson look like Anita Bryant. Does he succeed? I dunno, but it sure is fun to watch him try.
..... I hope this selection of books is not an indication of just how fucked up my brain is. Because that would be SCARY.
DTS
ALL: I know that this comes waaay after the discussion of favorite or recommended writers, but, for those of you looking for good reads, check out Bradley Denton. He's great! His latest books are LUNATICS (a romantic fantasy, set in Austin, Texas, involving a moon goddess) and ONE DAY CLOSER TO DEATH (a collection of stories, including a tale of the hereafter for comedians, that will be appreciated by Ellison lovers). Out here, DTS.
OK! I think that I am mostly caught up on the great threads that you all ran while I was gone! Whew!
I would say that it is great to be back home, but you all would just have to know that that would be an out and out lie! I loved Paris! What a great thing - to have a dream and then have the reality far exceed the expectations! Thanks for all the welcome backs! I am not sure how much of my trip is really relevant, and how much y'all want to read, so you will have to let me know.
Keegan - I've heard French rap, and I mostly don't get the point. I mostly don't get English rap (no melody - I believe that I have already mentioned that 6 years of voice, 5 years of band and a variety of choirs in between has left me addicted to things I can sing!), but I do understand that the purpose of rap is to express things. Rap always sounds very percussive to me, and seeing that French HAS to be the least percussive language I know about (Oh c'mon, these people don't even have any really good swear words! I get really hostile to the over use of "shit" and "fuck". I don't want them to move into the vernacular the way "bloody" did. They are really perfect swear words! They start soft and end hard. They are short and very percussive. In other words, perfect swear words.). Rap in French sounds very pretty. Like everything else in French. Kind of not the point of rap as far as I can tell.
Peter: Have a good break and I hope that you get lots done!
Peg: Want to get together off board and trade trip stories? Hong Kong sounds great!
I read all that bit about Narriman finally leaving. I don't get why he left. Maybe I just read it too fast. He did seem to be toning it down. I did go and check out a Gardner book at the library last night.
Billy D - couldn't tell you about the German, but the Spanish thing went swimmingly and the waiter was just great! Maybe Parisians used to hate Americans, but I didn't see any of that.
I have to say that after visiting Versailles, I have a much clearer understanding of how the French Revolution turned into the Terror. I also got my aunt to explain Napoleon to me. I just never understood why the French love him so much when he took their revolution for democracy and made himself emperor. I have also begun researching my next trip to Paris. Maybe London and Paris next trip. Hmmmmmm Possiblities abound!
Merci, au revoir!
My english department has a great author series that they put on four times a year. Last year we had Norman Mailer, Barry Gifford, and (chuckle) Oliver Stone. This year we had several playwrites, including Edward Albee, next month we get Arthur Miller (I missed Albee, but I won't miss Miller). I need to infiltrate the group in charge of that series and see if I can't get them to invite Ellison.
Well, I'm off to hide for a week (spring break). I need to close my eyes and think happy thoughts for a while. Plus I have a couple of stories I need to work on (I really need to start sending things out again)
---Peter
Charlie - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 12:17:38 (CST)
Shane- Thanks for the info. Sounds like a fun couple days with the Ellisons. Shopping at Target and buying books with Harlan. Gotta love it. Charlie
Shane - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 10:08:19 (CST)
I'll have more specific info on Harlan's visit soon.
Shane - Thursday, March 25, 1999 at 10:03:03 (CST)
I picked the Ellisons up at Sky Harbor March 9th at 5:00, they did a little shopping at Target, checked into their hotel, then my wife, Lauren, and the chairman of the Glendale Community College Speakers Forum, Hannes Kvaran, joined us for dinner at Outback Steakhouse. About an half an hour after we were seated, some drunks sat down behind us. Harlan asked them nicely to keep down the volume and when that failed he went for full volume with,"...AND WE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT IF THE POLICE HADN'T SPOTTED THE HAND STICKING OUT OF THE TRUNK!" That got silence, at least for awhile. Ya gotta love him!
The next morning the three of us went to IHOP (Susans'favorite), made a stop for me at Target, then we headed for Glendale Community College. Harlan talked from 11:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m., signed books and talked to the fans until 1:00, and then we went to the Teachers Lounge for more lunch and talk. An old author friend of Harlan's, Jim Sallis, joined us and had as good a time as anyone. At about 2:15, we headed back to their hotel so that they could rest and change clothes. We hit construction and closed roads which lead us into a mall parking lot in front of a remaindered book store. Several books purchases later, I dropped Harlan and Susan off and killed some time making calls (okay, I went back and bought more books.)
Harlan and Susan wanted to eat at Schlotckys (sp?), so that's where we met Lauren, Hannes Kvaran (G.C.C. Speakers Forum) & his wife, and a colleague of Hannes's. More food and talk and then we headed to ASU West. We went directly to the La Sala Ballroom C and set up the books for Susan. Harlan caught up on old times with friends in the audience. Rob Taylor of ASU West introduced Hannes, who introduced Harlan and we were off. For the next two and one half hours, Harlan talked about everything from his ex-wives to writing. The talk was followed by an hour of signing and visiting. We packed up the remaining books (not many, but too many for Harlan's liking), walked to the parking lot with Mike Stackpole (local writer best known for his STAR WARS books), and we headed back to the hotel.
We almost went in search of a Dunkun Donuts, but stopped in at a Whataburger. We found the door locked, even though the sign said that the dining room closed at 11:00 and it was only 10:40. Harlan persuaded the staff to open up and the three of us had well-done JuniorBurgers. When we finished, I got them back to their hotel in one piece, hauled the books up to their room and we said our goodbyes.
The next day, Jim Sallis and his wife picked up Harlan and Susan and they all went to Montazumas Castle. As I understand it, they made their flight with time to spare.
Okay, okay, OKAY -- stop sending me e-mails, I fixed the damn thing. I cut off the archiving at the wrong point and missed the HTML tag that notes the beginning of the comments. The first post munged 2 or 3 comments, the second one munged the entire page header. Apologies to anyone's post that was lost.
Also, I *did* ask about the Ackerman thing - turns out the Ellisons are taking Forry to court over the fact that he will simply not stop harassing them with faxes and phone calls at all times of the day and night. 4E did not show up for the first court date, so it has not been resolved yet. I don't think there's anything more dramatic or diabolical to it, and there's no money involved.
Charlie St. Pete, - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 15:56:30 (CST)
Shane- How 'bout a low-down about HE's visit to Glendale??
Shane - Wednesday, March 24, 1999 at 11:02:09 (CST)
Barney, When Harlan was here a couple of weeks back, he picked up where he left off twenty-two years ago with his friend, Jim Sallis. Sallis is a poet, novelist, editor, and music historian who has been known to work in the field of speculative fiction. Sallis attended both of Harlan's talks, hung out in the Staff Lounge with the Ellisons and the Glendale Community College staff after the morning talk, and Sallis, his wife, and the Ellisons did a bit of traveling in Arizona the day after the talks. What follows is a list of Sallis's books and short stories that I've discovered:
Ash of Stars : On the Writing of Samuel R. Delaney James Sallis(Editor)
Bluebottle : A Lew Griffin Mystery
Death Will Have Your Eyes : A Novel About Spies
Eye of the Cricket : A Lew Griffin Mystery(Walker Mystery Series)
The Guitar in Jazz : An Anthology James Sallis(Editor)
The Guitar Players : One Instrument and Its Masters in American Music
Limits of the Sensible World
Renderings : A Novel
A Case of Rape Chester B. Himes, James Sallis (Designer)
Difficult Lives : Jim Thompson-David Goodis-Chester Hines James Sallis
Saint Glinglin :Raymond Queneau, James Sallis (Translator)
Black Hornet: A Lew Griffin Mystery
Jazz Guitars : An Anthology
The Long-Legged Fly: A Lew Griffin Mystery
Moth : A Lew Griffin Mystery
The Review of Contemporary Fiction (summer 1996) Vol 16 John O'Brien(Editor), et al
The war book
Finders comments oddly enough dovetail neatly with something I've always thought about Harlan. One of Harlan's greatest qualities - one of the things which makes him really stand out - is that he is a world class pointer. If you tire of his self promotion, if you find him to be too strident or self centered, if the book or movie review he writes fails to sway you or simply dumbfounds you, if the book or story he writes promises you Mt. Everest and delivers Mt. Shasta, you still have, at the end of the day, all of the things he has pointed to and said, "here kiddo, try some of this!" There is not a single field of human endeavor from writing and painting to Italian cooking and jazz where I have not gotten at least a couple of solid recommendations from the man. Sometimes you get there first. You pick up a book by Ellroy or Jim Thompson that you were going to read anyway because you already knew they were good and you spot the Ellison blurb and you say to yourself, "ah, great minds think alike." But if you actually start making a list of all the things he tosses off in passing and think about the Junior High School student living in South Bugtussle who picked up "Watching" or "Strange Wine" or the Teats for the first time today and said "y'know I like Korn but I wonder who Oscar Peterson is?" "Fritz Leiber? Well, I read all the Andre Norton and Bradbury, guess I'll try that next." It's like a whole life in letters replicating the scene in Woody Allen's "Manhattan" where he's lying on the couch composing a list of the things that have given him joy over the years. Allen may be a creep but that list is a wonderful thing and a gift to the musically or literarily uninitiated. So, um, what was my point? No point really, except, next time we feel like complaining because Harlan's late with something we can all just find the one name on a page of Harlan ranting that we've never heard of and see if they're any good.
Wylie - I don't think the AFI's list or the Academy's call on films is necessarily bad for people, so long as they use them as tools or a jumping off point. The problem is when they take a small kernel of prejudiced information and honor it as if it dropped unbidden from the Heavens("And the Lord said unto Moses, "Thou shalt honor 'Pulp Fiction'." ") and never expand beyond what they're told. The AFI says "Citizen Kane" is the mother of all movies, great. They should chase that with some of Welles' other films. Sadly, a lot of people simply don't know where to begin, and someone, anyone, recommending a film to them is a welcome thing. It's similar to books in today's world: people will take a recommendation, and will look for the sign proclaiming "Must Read" and will follow it because it's the opinion they're receiving when they're looking for one. But the commercial aspects of such lists is an unfortunate consequence. I popped in one of my New Twilight Zone tapes into the VCR a little while back - recorded off CBS first run back in 1985 - and was surprised that in the three hours worth of broadcast I watched, there wasn't a single movie commercial. A large segment of entertainment has become more and more concerned with the bottom line in the last twenty years and how much squeezing is necessary to reach it; all the rules have been re-written as the technology has opened up home video and premium cable and pay per view markets, and advertising has proliferated with it. Today, you're lucky to go a commercial break without seeing at least one ad for a theatrical, pay per view or video release. SIGH...There's a certain charm to an era when the movie did its theater stint and then, if it stood the test of time, reappeared again several years later like an old friend...
You guys know what truly sucks about the AFI and their lame lists? Hollywood Video promotes them all and I, as "store director," am supposed to be excited about this. Retail marketing continues to disgust me. The customers who flock to the academy awards section, trying to see all the "important films" really bother me. I want to tell them to make their own damn lists and to hell with the academy and the afi and all the other film experts, too. Go with what moves you, what changes your perspective. . . just think, fer crissakes! Sorry guys, gotta get it out before I go and face the store. It's new release day (every tuesday) and I just dread it. Catch ya later. Wylie
Doc, why would you say Kubrick's films are great EXCEPT _The Shining_? The Shining is a masterpiece, probably the best horror film I have ever seen. I would actually call it his 2nd best film after Clockwork Orange. It's really the only movie I have ever seen that I would call genuinely scary, the kind of scary that sticks with you for a long time afterwards.
-chris
Otto (and anyone else who's curious) - The whole skinny on the AFI list can be found at their web-site: http://www.afionline.org/home.html. Doc - they should call it Fifty Years More or Less, Seventy-odd Stars and a few other People Who Got Lucky...their nominations lists would be downright amusing if they weren't such a cry for attention. Just reading their definition of a screen legend was mind-boggling (screen debut before 1950 - or after 1950, if the performer has died, signifying a completed body of work? Ohhhh-kay.) And criteria for making the list includes Historical Context? Is this, perhaps, why Fatty Arbuckle is present? Give me a break. Paul Newman can't be considered because he's been fortunate enough to outlive the competition? But Divine and Elvis (that master thespian - "Charro" changed my life), simply by benefit of death, could make the final list of fifty actors? I wonder if they sit around at the AFI trying to think of new ways to draw attention to themselves via utterly hair-brained and inane rankings and listings. It's a gross publicity stunt, intentionally designed to spark debate...much like their film list. They really are much better when focusing on film restoration and the screening of quality cinema the way it was meant to be seen...total aside, can't wait until they move their screening operation out of that warehouse room at the Kennedy Center and into the renovated Silver Theatre in Silver Spring, Maryland.
