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The Ellison Bulletin Board

Comments Archive - 05/19/99 to 07/13/99

Yikes, I was sitting on the board, composing (better than decomposing anyday) and missed the change of subject. So if you want, just ignore what I had to say last post anyway...

I'll start out by saying, thank you all... Because it is only in the heat of discussion that I can truely test and refine my point of view....

Peter: ROTFLOL

Two - The ALA page in question is as follows:

http://www.ala.org/teenhoopla/health.html

If you want the detailed trace, it follows: You start at the ALA home page and follow a graphical link on the right that says Kids, Parents and The Public, follow the next link: Read! Learn! Connect!, Then: Teen Hoopla: Internet Guide For Teens (The mythical Teen site), follow the links, Enter, Links, Life, Health in that order - viola!

Finder: The unanswered question is thus: Yes, I first heard of this on Dr. Laura's show. I followed up and what she stated was accurate. There are highly detailed answers to sexual questions on this site. The link is in an area that is intended for 12 year olds and up. I will shield my early teens and toddlers (I have two girls, 12, and 2 respectively... hey, Darryl maybe we can get the chilluns to meet... :) ) from that particular reality, and if I am asked - by way of direct question or by indirect petition to help remove "objectional material" from the kids section of a local library, I will consider each case individually, and respond according to my personal beliefs and values. I will not assume that any particular individual will agree with even a majority of what I have to say, but when I find common ground I will fight the battle alongside them.

My point about libraries and "majority rules" is that this is the basic tenet of our society. I feel if a majority of parents don't want a title filed in the children's area, right or wrong, it shouldn't go there. This is the way our society works, or at least should work. That it is abused and folk tend to shrink before overwhelming economic force, even if it is wielded by a minority, is perhaps an unfortunate side effect of capitalism. As far as asking libraries to help protect our progeny, I don't think this is particularly out of order here either. We ask almost every public institution to take special care of children.... That society might ask for some segment of access to the internet to be restricted from children is not a particularly grand leap of logic. (I will pause to remind all that I have not once advocated restricting access for adults, even for pornographic sites.) My ultimate goal is to have my own say in how I raise my own kids, and to let others, including public institutions, know when I feel they are going too far. (Mine is only one voice, and raised alone will make no changes. But when added to other voices we can Rock the Casbah....)

DTS (Jump right in, the argument is fine....!), Chris and Darryl: You arguments are excellent, especially Darryl's (Perhaps you're not a know-it-all, but you are a know-alot.) (In fact, I will ponder Darryl's #1 and #2 arguments further - they will shape my future thinking on this subject...) (This is to take nothing away from DTS or Chris...) Your assertions that because homosexual behaviour takes place in nature, it represents normal behaviour will need more evidence... Because all the relevant examples you brought up show that animals will resort to homosexual behaviour when sexual release is needed and no easy alternative exists, but no evidence that they will naturally form long-term homosexual relationships in place of available heterosexual ones. Only humans bond that way in significant numbers - and I again assert that such a bond is not species survival oriented, and will thus be selected against. (My thinking in this area has been quite interestingly shaped by Richard Dawkins'-The Selfish Gene) (I think both massive extinctions and gradual changes are important factors in evolution... but I will read some Gould on this subject. )

And lastly, some general thoughts. One - Dr. Laura has the degree - A PhD in Physiology earned at, of all places, Columbia University (Talk about amusing irony), so lay off the "".
Two I listen to people I mostly don't agree with for one very important reason... keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. You cannot have adequate knowledge of what the other side is thinking if you don't know what they're actually saying. My only criteria for talk show hosts is that they be moderately entertaining and they make me think. (I like Dr. Laura's philosophy of personal responsibility, but I laugh at her pie-in -the-sky attitude about interpersonal relationships, and I sometimes cring at her apparent unknowing rude edge.) (Rush Limbaugh almost uniquely makes me yell at the radio, he gets so much just _this_ wrong - but he is an amusing personality, and he makes me reevaluate my postions, especially when I find myself nodding in agreement.) (Dr. Dean Edell - I like this guy's attitude and matter of fact presentation...) Edell is the only talk show host I find myself nodded along with on a regular basis. (Others. like Stern or Liddy just so annoy me with their presentation, that I have yet to determine if they have anything useful to say.)

...phew... this has been a long and heavy discussion, and most enlightening.... I am enjoying it

Maggie: Your point about violence/sex is an interesting one, this will likely be a further topic of discussion....

Maybe we aren't being good Netizens by not being rude enough but let's adopt a good old fashioned Net standard: natural drift in a thread.

I'd like to discuss the topic that's been touched on a couple of times about the violence vs. sex messages in our culture.

We seem to have an almost universally accepted standard that it is simply wrong for children to be exposed to sexual content of any kind. Indeed, not just sexual content, but nudity of almost any sort. Outside of the occasional shot of Dennis Franz's butt, nudity is almost a guaranteed R rating.

Shooting a bunch of people. Hitting a bunch of people. Killing a bunch of people. As long as there isn't "too much" of it and it isn't too graphic, that can stll get you a PG-13.

I have to wonder why we think it's much more acceptable for kids to view people performing acts of violence on one another but are horrified at the thought of kids seeing people perform acts of love or passion with one another.

So what I'd like to know is, exactly why is it "wrong" for a kid to see a naked body? And I'd really like you to try to ignore the fact that it's just a standard we've all grown up with. Pretend you're an alien visitor to this planet trying to understand this phenomenon. Why do we think a child will be hurt by the sight of nudity or sex?

By no means am I saying it's OK for kids to watch sexual activity in films or anything like that. I'm just asking you to answer why, outside of the fact that it's "just the way things are", we are so horrified at the threat of young people seeing a naked body.

This kind of got me to thinking. When I got to see my first Playboy when I was about 10 or 11, well, it answered a whole lot of questions for me. And I certainly consider a very positive experience, not one that left any scars. Maybe some stains... oops, I'm getting gross now so I'll stop.

-chris

CHARLIE/FINDER: the March 1993 issue of "SF Age" (vol.1 , number 3) is the one containing "Toiling In the Dreamtime" and a small excerpt from "Pet," an unfinished story by Ellison. As for where you left yours finder, check in the far corner of the closet, second box from the bottom. Out Here, Go...er, DTS.

The following satirical comment in no way reflects the view or attitude of the author, and is merely an attempt to insert mirth into a civil, yet decidedly heavy discussion...
_______________________________________
Now folks, we must stop this civil discourse at once. What kind of message are we sending to the rest of the world if we actually use the internet to debate and discuss issues in a polite and civil manner? What kind of prescedent are we setting for our children? As one who is contrary in thought and in deed, I must therefore interject by saying that you are all big ol' meany poopy heads.
---------------------------------------
thank you. We now return to our regularly scheduled discussion.

---Peter (thanks to all for being the exception to the rule)

DTS - I must have misspoke back there; I've been to Go Ask Alice - ferreted it right out on a Yahoo search. What I'm having trouble verifying is that the American Library Association web pages have an encouraging link to GAA in an area targeted for pre- and young teens. The yellow brick road on that little chestnut has so far eluded me - and I suspect it will continue to. But thanks anyway. Y'know, I'm not doing such a hot job finding my issue of SF Age with "Pet" for the assist to Charlie. Now if you could tell me which box I packed it in - THAT would be razzle-dazzle...

Hey, the company that I work for moved and we now have stupid broken internet access and we've had our internet access strictly restricted until such time as the company does whatever it has to, correct the problem - 3 to 5 really long weeks. UGH! However, Shane, bless his heart, has kindly been copying and forwarding the postings to me (I'm just on tonight because I'm waiting for a ride - long story). This conversation on censorship has been wonderful. So many well thought out arguments and all phrased from one adult to another. Boy do I love civil discourse!

As to my comments on the topic - well they've pretty much all been said, and beautifully too. I would like to say that I have a hard time with descriptions of same gender pairings as aberrant or unnatural, when any farmer will tell you the behavior is anything but unnatural. Heck, even masturbation is a natural behavior no matter what your parents told you - ask any person who works with profoundly retarded people. Personally I find pretty much anything to do with sex more natural and normal than say, smoking - ever stood at a bus stop? Looks like an ash tray.
Here's a thing along the censor ship thread that bugs me a lot - how is that, as a culture, we are so tolerant of violence, but not of sex? Movies rarely, if ever, receive an NC-17 (or the old X) for violence, but nudity? Sure, you bet. Why is it more acceptable to violently and graphicly murder a person than it is to have sex with them? It seems like the most wretched inconsistency to me. Personally I would far rather watch a couple of people going at it in bed than watch a couple of grown men pound on each other until one of them falls down and can't get back up any more - and that's boxing, real life, permanent brain damage, possibly death, and not rated anything at all!

Probably a good thing that I'm not a parent. I'm certain that I'd raise a lot hackles down at the local PTA! :-)

Well, here I go, sneaking back off into purgatory. Keep up all this lovely civil discourse!

Xanadu:

I will (and have, as an active-duty military person in a previous life) defend your right to say what you have said, but I believe that you should consider the below comments.

1. I _do_ subscribe to a scintilla (actually, more than a scintilla) of evolutionary theory. And, looking at societal conditions combined with that theory, I find that your statement ‘…homosexuality ‘genes’ will not be passed on in any meaningful numbers…’ to be incorrect. In most societies, homosexuality has been treated as ‘aberrant’ and worse. In that case, if one were homosexual, one had to perform sexual acts in private, and needed a ‘beard’, that is, a wife or husband and preferably children. That way, few people could know that you had ‘aberrant’ tendencies. If one accepts that argument, the genes _would_ be passed on in relatively significant numbers.

2. I _do not_ assume that the current ‘surge’ in gayness is a function of environment. I submit that the current increase in numbers of people willing to be publicly homosexual is a function of a more tolerant society. Face it, if you aren’t going to be stoned, hung, shot or shunned for being gay, more people will willingly share with you that they are gay.

3. As a parent, I wholeheartedly agree with you on the subject of having a stricter standard for what children can see, or read. As long as I am a parent (of a child, not an adult), I will be a willing participant in controlling what they see and/or read. Having said that, I must agree with finder. If I find that my library has unfettered internet access, I will be with my child to help him (not sexist, I have two boys) make good decisions about access.

4. Again as a parent myself, I agree with your not accepting the sexualizing of children, but you have to accept that it is happening. Shield your children from it, yes, but you’ll find (as my friends with older kids have found) that it will happen anyway. I hope that it doesn’t happen with my children, but I will prepare them as if it will happen. As my kids are naturally curious, better that they get good information from me than bad (or harmful) information from the ‘street’.

5. As for 'Dr.' Laura, morally certain people are usually neither.

6. As a humorous aside, I’ve been in a few heterosexual relationships that were far less ‘normal’ than some homosexual relationships I am acquainted with!

I hope that I don’t come off as a know-it-all, because that definitely ain’t true.

Can I just mention that I think it's *GREAT* how everyone has been so civilized during all the discussion, discourse, and disagreement? Go ahead, re-read all the posts. Not a hard-hearted flaming insult in site. (Rick must have upgraded the board with Flamer repellant, or is using advanced web programming to cause undetectable subliminal calming screen flickers ....) Cheers, Peg

FINDER: (odd me telling YOU this with that moniker of yours), the Go Ask ALice website is at: www.columbia.alice.edu/
I found the site address at the Library Journal online site. As for the extremely bone-headed "Dr." Laura, why does ANYONE listen to her (or Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern) or any other of the hard-right, conservative Neanderthal-radio mouths-with-no-brains? I've accidentally (my truck only has A.M.) tuned into her show once or twice, and found myself turning the radion off in disgust. It's beyond me why anyone (arch conservative or note, bible-thumper or atheist) would think any of these idiots contain an iota of wisdom. More often than not, where the human condition is concerned, the lot of them are dumber than a pile of bricks. Out here, DTS.

Xanadu: I guess you can call homosexuality "aberrant" if you want to but I don't see what the use in doing so is. Is any behavior practiced by 49% or less of the people in the world considered aberrant? Why bother describing it that way?

But your Darwin/genes argument just doesn't wash. The problem is there is a lot of misunderstanding out there about exactly what evolution is. Read some Stephen Jay Gould books to learn a little more about it. It is much more a process of change through fits and starts, by means of massive extinction caused by radical change sin the environment, rather than the sense of "gradual improvement" that a lot of people have.

Why is a certain percentage of the population born sterile? That's not something that would get passed down to the next generation yet the condition still exists. There are plenty of maladaptive traits which consistently appear in the population even though you'd think evolution would have "taken care of it."

Also, as has been mentioned, homosexual behavior is very commonplace in the animal kingdom which certainly casts some doubt on the notion of whether homosexuality is "unnatural." It is no more unnatural than humans having protected sex, sex without the goal of procreation.

-chris

Xanadu - I don't know - I've bounced the entire text of your initial post (gotta give the correct context) off three different individuals, and all three came away with the impression you were painting Go Ask Alice as a site of a pornographic nature. Sorry, old chum. Wanted to make sure it wasn't a me thing... And I'll note that you never did answer my initial question... to which I'll add another: do you know where on the ALA page the link to GAA is supposed to be? Because for something the ALA is supposedly actively promoting, I'm having a hell of a time finding the offending link, and they don't seem to have a specific pre- and young teen area on their site. As for shielding children, it's perfectly within your rights to look after the protection of yours, and I applaud that; I applaud any involved, conscientious parent - but in professing to help shield other children, are you not pre-supposing your values system is correct for other people's children? Slip the shoe on the other foot - would you want someone to assume their values system was right for your children, and to make decisions for them based on that belief? And one final point, going back to your initial post: why should librarians be tasked with policing other people's children? Much like schools, libraries aren't there to babysit children - I think they have a right to be a little indignant when a parent sends along a letter saying "Please don't let Mikey look at Internet sites that might be bad for him." And THAT's part of the ALA's position: that the library shouldn't be put in the position of regulating anything for anyone, that under the First Amendment it doesn't have the right to limit anyone's access, that the individual needs to be responsible for themselves and their children. That's an important distinction. If the ALA is going to be dinged for not wanting to filter anything for anyone, their reasoning is a big part of a fair portrait of them.

Chris - I've done quite a bit of reading on censorship and the banning of books, and I know the Planet Comics case. Ultimately, we live in continual peril of someone screaming "I'm offended" - but I disagree with Xanadu that it's a "majority rules" environment - when was the last time a mob got together to ban a book? In two extensive school systems here in Maryland, it wasn't a majority that got "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings" pulled from reading lists - it was a handful of disgruntled parents who didn't like the way whites were portrayed in the book, a handful that imposed their value system on a school community of 4,000 students. It's the squeaky wheel that gets greased, and it always has been. The problem is when the squeaky wheel is simply ignorant, intolerant and uninformed. In a land where people would challenge the dictionary and "Little Red Riding Hood" because of their content, there's nothing above attack. True, there needs to be some kind of yardstick to measure by, but we're back to the Gordion knot of who determines the measure. And you're right. If it were easy, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

(oops, bone headed mistake) -- the magazine title below should read "Scientific American" -- Out here, DTS.

XANADU: I know jumping into the middle of a debate isn't advisable, but I had to mention something about your comment concerning homosexuality and it being an aberation (especially when you used survival of the species as the foundation for your argument). I don't have quotes, page numbers or periodical names with me at the moment, but in recent years (the past 5 or six) I've been reading interesting stuff in SF American and other layman-oriented science magazines. One is that among wild families of chimpanzees, homosexual relationships between males are practiced when there aren't enough females to go around. It seems they are simply satisfying a sexual urge, not promoting species survival (and I'm pretty sure that these guys didn't learn it from humans). Also read about a fish that changes its gender (that's right, even swaps out its sexual organs) whenever necessary. (I also once read about another animal -- it's early, and I haven't quite awakened yet -- the female pig, I believe, which experiences orgasms that last as long as 30 minutes -- that would seem to have little to do with species survival, since the male's sex drive usually). So it seems as if sexual "normalcy" or "aberrant behavior" is not so much a law of nature as a social invention of mankind. Stemming, I believe, from the days when we humans didn't last much longer than 30 or 40 years, and didn't quite crowd the Earth as much as we do now. But since that teaching is rooted in religions that promise undying punishment to all who don't heed the warnings (much like an angry parent spanks a child he or she can't control), I doubt if those beliefs will fade away from our collective psyche anytime soon. Oh, well. Old habits (prejudices, and superstitions) die hard, don't they? Cie la vie! Out here, DTS.

Quick note, before work.

Finder, if you will note - at no point in my argument did I describe the GAA site as porn. What I did say is that it contained explicit information. (Though I will publicly apologize for the modifier "especially", and hereby substitute "including") And frankly, I don't give a hoot in hell if kids are having sex at younger and younger ages, I, in my role as parent, cannot accept the sexualizing of children - I will shield my own children from such, and if I can - I will help shield other children from such. (But, hey, that's just me.) As as to the question about "Why not Loveline?" partially because it's on late enough at night, and partially because the GAA site is aimed specifically at pre- and young teens. (Though I would not doubt that Loveline will eventually come under the gun as well, because frankly - Dr. Laura has been on longer than MTV and she ain't afraid of them having her for lunch...)

Peter - Homosexuality IS an aberration. Individual acts of sex are not functions of species survival. My use of Darwin was simply to point out that homosexuality "genes" are a facetious argument. But, again I point out - the use of the word aberration is in the sense "not normal or typical". I myself participate in aberrant behaviour - in public even...! (Just ask Finder)

Peg - Thank you for noticing. There is a HUGE difference in tolerating and celebrating.

Chris - Yes, if enough parents have a problem with something, it should be moved to the adult section. Period. That is not a condemnation, nor is it censorship, because any adult can get it, and can then hand it to their own children. We live in a society predicated on, right or wrong, "majority rules". I truly do not see a problem with limiting children's access to material. It is a parental responsibility. Can it be abused? As we have seen in nearly every deep discussion on this board... Yes, it can.

Gotta run. More later.

finder,

Problem is the Internet is, quite simply, different. It is somewhat analagous to a library, yes, but not entirely.

If a library has adult books or magazines, they can put them in a separate section and assure that kids don't get them. It's not nearly as easy to do that with the Internet even with programs like NetNanny and the life. Do you filter out all sites which have the key term "breast" in their search info? You're going to eliminate a lot of sites.

But even if the Net was completely analagous to the library environment, you still run into the same old problems. OK, so the library shouldn't give kids a copy of Hustler. Should "Heather Has Two Mommies" be similarly prohibited? Plenty of parents think so. But if you do that, you are quite clearly taking the moral position that homosexuality is wrong or, if not wrong, then at least something more illicit and less acceptable than heterosexuality (Heather has Two Mommies is not a pornogaphic book - it is a book geared towards kids and is about lesbian parents.)

So if you accept that book as off-limits, then what do you do when a group of parents gets together and decides that they don't want their kids reading non-Christian religious texts? Do you have to stick the Qu'ran in the adult section too?

Does "A Wrinkle in Time" have to get shelved in the adult section too? You may laugh but it shows up as one of the ten most banned books int he country year after year. A lot of people don't like the idea of the book having witches as characters - they probably are even more annoyed that the witches are depicted in a positive light.

I certainly agree that there is plenty of material out there not appropriate for kids. And I also agree that parents have every right to decide what is or isn't appropriate for their kids. I also understand that parents need help in doing this.

However, I am not necessarily comfortable with letting some amorphous "communal" sense of morality become the standard by which public facilities conduct their censorship.

Do yourself a favor and go over to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund website at www.cbldf.org and read the story of the Planet Comics case. You can probably find eithe rby clicking on the censorship bibliography link or by clicking on the resources link near the top of the page.

Who do you want to set up as your moral arbiters? It's not an easy issue.

-chris

Hmmm...I still think there's similarities between the internet and other media. Let's continue with using pornography as an example.

Is it legal for children to go into an adult bookstore and purchase pornographic magazines or books? How about renting an adult video? Or, for that matter, even an "R" rated video? Now, it's been a while since I checked, but as far as I know these activities are illegal (if they weren't people would be selling and renting to kids left and right). So why should accessing an adult pornographic site on the intranet be different?

We seem to be in agreement that this raises gray areas. But I'm not sure why this is so difficult and different than any other form of media. Schools have guidelines as to what material children are shown. And yes, even TV, as questionable as that set may be. But parents have the responsibility, and far more ability, to control what their kids watch at home. When kids are in school, the school and the teacher have that control . It's the parents responsibility to either ensure they approve of a school's curriculum or to home school their kids. But while a child is at school, it's the *responsibility* of that school to teach that curriculum, part of which is monitoring the content.

No one on this board has yet suggested making pornographic (or other questionable sites) illegal, nor that we limit access to sites on history, world culture, art, or any of the other examples posted (all very good examples of how extremists or people whose strong personal beliefs *without tolerance* could have too conservative an interpretation for the general populace). The question of content has as much to do with the maturity of the person receiving the content as well. If the child in question has the maturity to appreciate that Hindu Art, or look at the breat cancer site objectively, great for them (heck, they're probably better off than many adults). Teachers and parents make judgments on the maturity of a child all the time - it's their job.

So maybe the teacher or the parent has to give the student a pass to access the material. That takes the onus off the library and librarian, but still ensures that a student can see what they need to see as judged by someone who -should- know them well. The idea of an automated prinout is fine, too, thought I would suggest the library email or postal mail it to the parents/teacher directly.

On a personal note, I don't think the human body is something of which to be ashamed (though mine is definitely not getting public display for another 15 pounds!). My personal belief is the naked body is something to share in private with your spouse (and doctors as needed), but I'm tolerant that other's have different viewpoints. I would still argue there's a large difference between Michaelangelo's David vs the HOT XXX TEEN SLUTS spam I get in my email., between sex as portayed in common pornography vs an educational site (or even Kuma Satra site) providing still pics of different methods and positions. If a child is being responsible and doing their art report, they are going to go to visit David, not hot teen girls. But the fact is that, psychology and reverse psychology aside, if HOT XXX TEEN SLUTS is available, some kids (not all) are going to visit.

I'm sure by now I've alienated everyone, so here's one more for the fire. I totally agree that it's the parent's responsibility to raise their child. But, without absolving that, it might just be a little easier, and the child might grow into a better person, if we in the community lend the occasional hand. Takes a village to raise a child and all that.

Okay, I'm sure to be flamed now. *sigh* Oh when will I EVER learn.

Peg

okay, while I'm logy and wonky enough to put my foot into my mouth...

Alright, leaving religion on the doorstep and keeping darwin as the template... Homosexuality is no more abberent then heterosexual sex for pleasure, sex with contraception, sex whose sole purpose is intimacy between two partners. I certainly never aim to have children with any woman I'm seeing. I guess, from a darwinian standpoint, that makes me an abberation, since my procreative impulses are being used in a manner not condusive with the continuation of the species... something to consider. Never mind masturbation. That must be another darwinian no no. See, Darwin and the bible have more in common than people think. Wow.

---Peter

Okay, I slashed out my long winded rant. I'm too hot and too sick right now to be coherent. But I will say, who's morality would you want to protect your children? Who do you want deciding what is wholesome information and what is filth? A man penetrating a woman from behind would certainly be characterized as filth, right? Except, what if I'm describing a graphic from the Kama Sutra and the child (of say twelve) is doing a report on hindu art? Or there is a picture of breasts, huge swelling mammaries filling the screen. Only, it is a site on breast cancer and its treatments. How about a pale man with curly hair standing in a relaxed pose, his phallus hanging out for all the world to see. David, by Michaelangelo. Definitions on this level are too fuzzy to give an adequate answer, so to punish instutions for applying what they see as, currently, the most approprate system given the sheer unreliabilty of every other system, is ludicrous. And right now, I'm going to sleep, and hopefully getting over this cold.

---Peter

If we approach the Internet as an information resource, then the same common sense rules we apply to the rest of information access should apply. If a library made Hustler accessible to to eight year old children, the law would slam dunk them. Why should the same standards not apply to what the library supplies via the net?

Peg - I think your thinking is right on, and I'll go one further: if the parent sets the guidelines for their own home, and accepts the reasonable guidelines for a school, then I think the library should, within the framework of the law (local, state or federal), be the ones to set the standards of conduct. Even as a public institution, the library has to find the middle ground that will satisfy the majority of its users. And I think it might also be a moot point without some kind of meaningful statistic on just how many people actually use a library to access sites that may be of a dubious nature.

Xanadu - My question is, does your information on Go Ask Alice come from Dr. Laura, or did you pay a visit to the site yourself? I ask because the description you provide sounds very slanted to make GAA sound like the very root of pornographic internet evil being peddled by the ALA - when Go Ask Alice is in actuality the question/answer site for Columbia University's Health Education Program. Yes, it contains questions and reponses of a frank nature regarding sexuality - no more concentrating on abberant sexuality than on any other kind, mind you - but also contains Q and A in multiple topics under the headings of relationships; emotional health; fitness and nutrition; alcohol, nicotine and other drugs; and general health. A dangerous porn site? Hardly. Perhaps some of the discussion is too frank for young teens; but a good deal more of it is practical, straightforward and clinical advice that can actually be helpful, especially in an age where children are becoming more sexually active at an early age, and less willing to talk to their parents. And why would Dr. Laura go after a clinical web site and not MTV's "Loveline", which is almost exclusively rooted in discussion of sex AND absolutely free weeknights on MTV (or on the radio, for cryin' out loud)? Because MTV would eat her for lunch, and she knows it. A hearty "Tsk tsk" if you took Dr. Laura's description of GAA at face value - and a confused stare if you came away from checking GAA with that kind of analysis.

Charlie - I'll see if I can find the magazine - I've narrowed it down to some twenty boxes...shouldn't be but another week or so...

Shane, Doc - Just finished watching "Curse of the Blair Witch" on Sci Fi - a well manufactured documentary-style teaser (not a making-of, but an entire framing segment for the film) that, seen widely enough, will really pull people in - creepy stuff for sitting here alone in the dead of night, and I can hardly wait.

OK, interesting and polite discussion going on here. Don't you people know that's not allowed on the Net? :)

To Xanadu: You're right. Parents have the responsibility to control their children. Not the libraries. If the parents are that worried about their kids accessing certain websites, they should monitor their web use. It's not my job to raise your kid - it's your job.

To Peg: The idea of computer stations for kids and for adults separately is a fine idea but it still has the same inherent problem as with filtering in general. Who decides what's appropriate and what isn't?

Let's take a slight tangent here. You've expressed several times a personal objection to pornography. That's certainly up to you to decide. Me, though, I don't have any problem with it, as long as everyone is a willing participant.

I don't believe the human body is dirty and something to be ashamed of. Well, OK, my body might be something to be ashamed of but at least it's clean. I also don't think sex is evil.

So I have to wonder what's the message sent in blocking access to a site which contains sexually explicit material but allowing access, let's say, to a web site devoted to a very violent movie like Reservoir Dogs? Are we saying that gun violence is more appropriate than sex?

Now that's just one question. Think of all the other questions and all the other gray areas that can come up.

Do we try to take an easy way out and, say, just adopt the same standards as network TV on the assumption that these are acceptable community standards? I guess that's an option but not one I am terribly comfortable with ethically.

Should access to this web site be denied because foul language might be used? How about access to any site which discusses HE's writings since some of it could be deemed profane or offensive?

I think the potential abuses involved in censorship are just far, far greater than those for a kid looking at a naked woman.

How about a compromise? Set the computer up to print out a record of all the web sites a user has visited once they are finished with their session. Kids have to show this list to mom and dad. If the kids are doing things mom and dad don't want, they lose their Net privileges except in a more closely monitored environment.

-chris

Xanadu, you said it much better than I!

On a side note, I appreciate your distinction between tolerating alternative viewpoints and lifestyles but not *celebrating* them. I often feel resentful when accusations of intolerance arise if someone doesn't wholeheartedly embrace a philosophy or lifestyle or activity. There is a difference between the tolerance and advocacy, but these P.C. days, the two are often assumed to be the same.

(I think that was the sound of another can of worms being opened. I really gotta shaddup now!)

Peg

Chris, you really were nice about that. Flamers take note!

Yes, I agree, it's a thin line to walk, and it is *really* easy to allow things to go too far. [supposedly in a democracy we could all vote and decide, but I don't know that I trust all of America - me included - to make an informed decision]. But one also has to consider *who* is accessing the information as well. Of course this raises the question of who decides who has access, who says you're responsible enough. But there can be some simple boundaries; it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

For me, first there's the question of the privacy of your home vs a public (both in location and funding) place. I'm not talking about internet cafes, college campuses (since most users are adults), your home, your friends home, etc. But that's on your buck and your time. My tax dollars (hopefully) don't go to fund pornography movie houses; why should they go to fund unlimited internet access to those sites? Or to pick another topic, it doesn't go to fund Satanists, or people who advocate animal abuse, or yadda yadda yadda. Now, I'm sure there are situations where someone has a legitimate need to access this internet material. It's just the unlimited access that I don't advocate.

Secondly, it's about children (I know I have gall to talk about this without having any of my own, but then it is my tax bucks at work here). I'm assuming (bad thing) the fact that it is public service means *anyone* can go in there and use it, if you are registered with the library. (Since I surf from work/home, I don't know how libraries control the internet access. Otto, what's the procedure where you work?).

Kids at home, I expect their parents to be the controllers, the ones who set the guidelines. Frankly if parents want their children to see pornography or racist sites or whatever on their own time, well that's their right. Not my place to say.

But when kids are away from home, their parents can't necessarily look over their shoulder. In this particular situation - the bounds of a public library - I would say it's common for kids to be there without their parents. Heck, I expect kids to be able to do that. Same goes for K-12 schools. But in school it's the teacher who controls the access, and we as the public or parents accept that teachers judgement if we want our kids in that school.

In these environments I think there needs to be some thought of who the audience may or may not be, and the reason/need for access. It could be so simple as having adult stations which can access anything, and stations for minors that can't. If a student really is doing research, the librarian can give them temporary access as needed to adult/all access station, so they can research. I'm sure there's a number of ways to handle it, and it may already be a moot point since I don't know how it works now.

Obviously there's no perfect answer here. It's always a delicate balance between freedom vs. control, public judgment vs. personal responsibility. As has been discussed before on this board, any tool can be abused. It's the ease of use that makes public internet access easy to abuse. In a publically tax-funded forum, it ought to be held to the same informational standards as other forms of media.

Well, I gotta stop before I dig so deep I'll never get out!
Peg

The sound you hear is the can of worms opening.

Otto, Sorry, but Dr. Laura's stance is is not censorship, and it's not even particularly reprehensible. It is, in fact, how our society thrashes out ideas and settles on a common ground.

Now, to begin with, here are my biases - I am whole-heartedly for the right of freedom of speech. But I am also whole-heartedly against being force fed crap and being asked to celebrate it. Two, I have absolutely no problem with homosexuality and people's right to practice it. But I also believe it's abberant behaviour, and I don't wish to be forced to celebrate it's wholesomeness, and place it on an equal par with normal, heterosexual relationships. (Now, before the inevitable flood of horror at my position, let me say this - homosexuality ain't normal - in no sense of the word. I attach no moral judgment to the description - but if you subscribe to even a scintilla of evolutionary theory, homosexuality "genes" will not be passed on in any meaningful numbers - they will die out as evolutionary dead ends. We must assume then, that the current surge in "gayness" is a function of environment or "nurture", not "nature". While I am not particularly religious, I also don't subscribe to the idea that homosexuality will provide any particular enlightenment.) Now, to end this particular thread in my argument, I have no problem at all with people participating in whatever particular abberrant behaviour they care to, as long as it involves consenting adults and is not harmful to non-participants.

Two, as a listener of Dr. Laura - I find her maddening at times - irritating, and overly righteous. But, she operates from a clear and morally unambiguous position. She applies the morals and values she has accepted (biblical) to her life and exhorts others to do the same. What is particularly reprehensible in that? Aren't we all supposed to at least tolerate alternate points of view? And isn't she allowed to try to convince others of her correctness? Isn't that what we all do? That said - I'll clear up one particular misunderstanding. Dr. Laura has never preached for the wholesale filtering of content at libraries. What she has found alarming is one particular facet of the American Library Association (ALA from here on) Freedom of Information policy. They suggest that there be NO FILTERING AT ALL - FOR ANYONE, REGARDLESS OF AGE. What she further found out, is that the ALA has also provided a link to a site called Ask Alice, or Go Ask Alice - with discusses sexuality, especially abberant sexuality in extraordinarily frank and graphic terms - often suggesting methods and "tools". The kicker is that the link is found in an area specifically aimed at pre-to-young teens. So, not only does the ALA say you can't prevent children from looking at such material, BUT THEY ACTIVELY PROMOTE IT ON THEIR SITE. She brought up several letters from listeners which showed that when some libraries were presented with a parental request that they limit content or access FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN, they were met with hostilty, disregard and sometimes just plain refusal. This, my friends, is what has the good Dr. in a tizzy. She postulates who, if not parents, should be charged with controlling what concepts and philosophies children are exposed to?

It comes down to this... For adults, we should have as much freedom to publish, and peruse whatever particular bias we want to. But we must have a far stricter standard for children. They should not be exposed to concepts they are just plainly not equipped, mentally or physically, to understand. We prevent children from signing contracts, because we want to protect them from their own lack of knowledge and sophistication. We need also protect them from other, more subtle persuasions. That is the job of parents. Dr. Laura is fighting for the rights of parents to warp their own kids in their own particular manner.

There is another, related argument that I'll save for a later time, but it involves the idea that forming a negative judgment about an idea or agenda and actively opposing it is wrong. 'Till then, I'll be ducking for cover too.

Peg, I know you said you were ducking for cover but I promise I'll be nice.

But I do think your attitude is a dangerous one. You don't want certain things to be seen at the library and you feel that's your right since it's paid for by your tax dollars.

But how many other people have a whole different list of things they don't want their tax dollars to be paying for at the library. How about no links to sites with gay or lesbian content? Some people consider that pornographic.

Do you block links to white supremacist sites? What if you're doing research on that issue?

Who makes up the definition of pornography? Is it "I know it when I see it?" Do libraries ban access to sites with loaded images of nude paintings by some of the great artists of history?

How about links to sites with sexually explicit content that's meant to be informative? Anatomy, safe sex advice, etc.

It's not just a slippery slope. It's a sheer drop. IMHO, of course.

-chris

On the Dr. Laura issue: Not to say that I agree with her tactics, but I think censorship is a harsh term, and not really the case here. What she is doing is using her personal and public influence (but not as a government official) to effect political or social response and/or change. I'd have to agree with some of the other comments here to the effect that she has the right as a citizen to do that. Actually, there are folks that would argue citizens have a *responsibility* to use their personal influence to effect positive social and political changes. Whether there is a more positive, constructive way for Dr. Laura to effect her change is a better question.

My thoughts on the subject of filters at the library vs censorship: censorship would be making it illegal to even create a particular site. Having filters at a public library which block that site is merely saying go access it from somewhere else.

To be honest, IMO I don't want my tax dollars to go to someone being able to surf porno sites at the library. Research, information, Personal contacts, ok sure. It doesn't have to be all business and no fun. Porno, sorry, gotta draw the line; same goes for sites advocating gang violence (if there are any, I'm just picking something I wouldn't want folks to access from a publically funded terminal).

All for now,
Peg (running and ducking for cover)

Otto -- Dr. Laura is a pill. That's pretty obvious (even my sister swears by the woman). However, in my own ever so humble opinion, she is also on par with his dookiness the Rev(iled) Jerry Falwell. She's a woman with a soapbox and a lot of her own ideas. The fact that she has influence is as frightening as the press that Falwell is able to garner (come on, has anyone taken him seriously since Tinky Winky? What was his last cause? Lilith fair -- a ritual of pagan lesbianism set to corrupt the young girls of america? Gimme a break.) And while it isn't censorship per se, it is still just as revolting. The fact that she mentioned Toys R Us by name (she did right?)scared them into bending to her will because of the fact that many corporations are invertebrate. It's disgusting, but it's as protected by the constitution as me ranting against her.

But just as Dr. Laura attempts to raise the "public consciousness" it sometimes becomes incumbent upon us to fight back. Start by not listening to her show. Then continue by getting other people not to listen to her show. Then go on by not patronizing Toys R Us. Then ask others not to patronize Toys R. Us. I think the time of complaining about the injustices of the world has long since passed. Discuss the issue with whomever is in charge at the library. See if you cannot start a leaflet campaign, you know, make some kind of small pamphlet available at the circulation desk, that sort of thing. If it's part of a library system, see if other branches can't carry the information as well. Then research and find out if the libraries affected are interested in joining in. Like a rash, the fight to correct an injustice begins with a single itch. Okay, I'm done planning the revolution, I relinquish the soapbox to the next fanatic.

---Peter

Finder, thanks. The subscription literature IS recent (just rec'd it). Yeah, that bugs me that they're promoting the "Pet" story as if it's coming next issue. What's the background of the story, if you recall?

DOC, the following is from the SciFi Channel's website about their upcoming show:

CURSE OF THE BLAIR WITCH

In October 1994, three student
filmmakers disappeared in the Black
Hills forest of Western Maryland while shooting
a documentary film about the myth of the Blair
Witch. They have never been found. Their
recoverd footage has been reconstructed into
the theatrical film The Blair Witch Project.
This exclusive Sci Fi special takes a closer
look at the horrible legend they set out to
document, and the aftermath of their
unexplained disappearance.

Airs Monday, July 12 at 10PM & 1AM ET*
Sunday, July 18 at 8PM & 1AM ET*
Thursday, July 22 at 11PM ET*
Friday, July 30 at 3AM ET*
Saturday, July 31 at 1PM ET*
Thursday, August 5 at 3AM ET*

Otto - Is what Dr. Laura did censorship? It's certainly a questionable tactic: if you perceive the library is a problem, approach the library. If the library isn't in any kind of violation of law, then Dr. Laura can disagree all she wants, can raise public awareness, can picket the place - but to go to a major financial supporter and blindside the library, and take it upon oneself to hurt EVERYONE who utilizes the services it provides because of her decision of what's right or wrong is simply incorrect, IMO. It smacks of grandstanding and trying to make a bigger name for herself, at whoever's expense. I'm reminded of Ted Turner and his attempts to keep the recent film version of "Lolita" from being distributed in America because it conflicted with HIS moral sense, which was a blatant attempt at censorship. This is more a matter of dirty pool and politcal maneuvering because of how she went about it than it is censorship - at least that's how I look at it. it still doesn't make it any less wrong.

Chris - I've kept a journal at four different times in my life, and every time I did, the quality of my life went spiraling downhill not long after I started keeping notes. Conversely, when I don't keep one, life has much more goodness to it. This is, I'm sure, merely coincidence - however, I've got several journals with nothing but random misery to show for the effort - so I just don't do it any more. A writing journal is another matter all together...

Latest from the trenches:

As a proud and constantly irritated employee of the public library system, I tend to be involved directly or in- with things like banned books, blocked websites, etc. (And yes, I'm the subversive force that keeps putting "Heather Has Two Mommies" and "Daddy's Roommate" on display in the childrens' section, through sheer perversity.) The most recent development has me gnawing on my knuckles. (I've given up tearing out my hair.)

You might know of a certain radio personality, a Dr. Laura Schlesinger (I'm sure I spelled that wrong), who hurls invective against people who leave their kids and/or spouses, people who do stupid things and mess up the lives of those around them, etc. Well, recently, she became particularly charged about the fact that many public libraries have no kind of filter system on the computers used to access the internet. She turned to Toys 'R' Us, a huge supporter of public libraries, and said that if they were a responsible corporation, they would withdraw their funding. They did.

One of the things I find disturbing about this is that there hasn't been more of a public outcry. Isn't this censorship? I thought censorship was bad, one of those no-no's in the constitution. But I could be wrong.

PS - Doc, I could kiss you for finding that quote, but it would probably make both of us really uncomfortable. I e-mailed the full citation to the professor who was the recipient of the essay that contained the semi-accurate quote. Thanks again.

A couple different points:

1) Blair Witch Project. It's already been described but I wanted to add one comment. It has the BEST, CLASSIEST trailer I have ever seen. It starts with a little intro and then they just run black leader as a girl, voice trembling, talks about how she's so sorry this happened, how everything went wrong, etc. Then the ONLY footage you see is at the end as they show an extreme closeup of part of her face, just the eyes, nose, part of the mouth as she finishes her speech: "I am so scared." And then they're out. It's beautiful. Doesn't give away anything, just provides you an emotional tone and engages your imagination and curiousity. And it's just downright creepy. So much creepier than it could possibly be by showing extended clips from the film. Just the way a trailer should be. There is a website for it which is, I believe, www.blairwitchproject.com

I also saw a trailer for Sleepy Hollow (by Tim Burton, starring Johnny Depp) which looked very interesting as well.

2) I also have my most productive hours between midnight and four. Is this a theme? Of course, I should say I "had" my most productive hours as I have not written for a while now.

However, I have recently started keeping a daily journal. So far, I just use it to write down a page or so of my thoughts for the day, whatever catches my fancy. I hope to add bits of creative writing to the journal soon.

My question to the writers out there is do you keep a daily journal? If so, do you find it useful?

So far, I have found it a therapeutic experience.

-chris

DOC: to kick off the discussion about good ghost stories (without getting into the "what makes a" part, cause it's late here and time to bed down), I'd like to say that, for me, the definition was realized in the following: GHOST STORY by Peter Straub, BAG OF BONES by Stephen King, several tales by Shirley Jackson (including HILL HOUSE), "The Jolly Corner" by Henry James and (for comedy) "Mom" by Harlan Ellison. (I also believe that, around Spring of 2000, I'll be able to add THE HOUNDS OF WINTER by Dan Simmons, which is currently a work-in-progress, to that short list). There are probably a few others but it's late, and they escape me. Out here, DTS.

and that is F&SF... this damned summer cold is squeezing at my brain.

---Peter

Wow, finder, you just described my high school dating career. Not that three years of college has actually changed that very much...

Doc, I sometimes have problems with some of the stories in S&SF. I canna remember the last time I actually made it all the way through an issue. But then again, I'm also a little peeved at them. You may have gotten the big envelope, but I sent my last story to them almost two months ago with no word. Usually Van Gelder is good at bouncing things back to me, so I'm going on the supposition that either he's sitting on it, or it got lost in the mail. Either case I think I might try some smaller markets for a while. I'm tired of receiving letters that say "A very (interesting, well told, vivid, disturbing) story. Alas, I'll have to pass on it." Then I have two other stories I sent out at the same time to a couple of other magazines. One probably got lost because the week after I sent it I got word that the magazine moved their offices. Another was to a small press which admits to taking anything from eight weeks to a year to respond. Ah, Well. That is the price of things I guess.

Oh yeah, finder. I too have the productive hours between midnight and four. Only, I have to be extremely careful about proofreading after one of those sessions. I've come up with some interesting grammatical constructs in the wee hours of the morning.

---Peter (who would be happy to see a rejection slip)

Charlie - I seem to recall SF Age has already published the fragment of "Pet", a couple years back (and not in the premiere issue, either); I have a copy, though I'm not sure where it is (many boxes from the move are still, well, boxed). Interesting story opening with an essay by HE talking about the tale. Why it would appear in their literatue for subscribers now is curious, unless they sent out some old marketing materials.

Doc - What do you want to know about "The Blair Witch Project"? It's a curious indie horror film in the form of a documentary - the hook is that the film is supposed to be footage shot by three students who went looking for the Blair Witch and vanished in the Maryland wilds. Their film (found a year later) tells the tale of what happened to them. There's a good buzz on it, with some hyperbole at the extreme end comparing its horror quotent to that of "The Exorcist". We'll see - but it looks interesting in a raw, low budget way.

Well, back to the keyboard - midnight to 4 am are my peak creative hours, and with my latest dating prospect having spent most of our hour on the phone telling me about the great guy she met, I've got some issues to write out...

Okay, two things, now that the travellogue is done:

First, I recently caught a sneak preview of Kevin Bacon's new movie, "Stir of Echoes." Check it out -- pretty slick little ghost story, from the book by Richard Christian Matheson, screenplayed and directed by David Koepp. If anyone's up for a discussion of what makes a good ghost story, I'm ready. And if anyone knows anything about "The Blair Witch Project," let me in on it, okay?

Second: Is it me, or does F&SF, in recent issues, seem to be maintaining a fine balance of the Good, the Bad and the Extremely Pookie? Check the August issue, if you don't get what I mean. I might be prejudiced, since I recently receeived the big envelope instead of the small (check-sized) envelope on my submission (with cursory note, and astonishingly quick turn-around time).

Yours in Sour Grapes,
Doc

Hi-ho, Old Gang o' Mine! Yes, the visit with Sue, Joe and Wylie (in no particular order) was an unparalleled delight! My only disappointment was its brevity. Okay, it was several hours -- still, you know how it is when you're visiting people you like lots: Goodbyes come so soon...

Anyhoo, we did lunch at Chow, then hit J.D. for mortal combat with cakes and oceans of coffee and assorted what not, then did a lap at Marina Green, pointed at Green's (where I had a delightful face-a-face with the Dennises), a glimpse of the Palace of Fine Arts, then into the Darkest Fillmore in search of the 2nd best barbeque in San Francisco -- only to discover that that branch of Leon's has closed. Ended up getting pizza at Pizza Inferno, where the decor is as vivid as the food. All the while using MUNI for our transport (MUNI is sort of like the Jungle Tour at Disneyland, but with real animals).

And incase you were wondering, the BEST barbeque in SF is, without question, Pittman's, on Fillmore. Hot links for which it is to die! Unfortunately, they're closed on Sunday.

Still, there are further adventures awaiting Wylie, should she ever risk the local traffic in future.

Oscar Wilde once noted that, if you stand long enough on a San Francisco streetcorner, you will eventually meet everyone you ever knew. Let me know when you're coming, okay? The room's a mess....

Cheers, Doc

sorry, that's "babbling"

ok, I'm confused. Rec'd one of those adverts to sign up for Sci. Fiction Age magazine. It states you'll receive the annual subsc. plus the out of print premier issue. It goes on to promise an unfinished story by HE entitled "Pet". However, it doesn't state whether the story is (1) upcoming, (2) in the premier issue, or (3) already published in a previous issue. Plus it mentions an "exclusive journey through his innermost psyche". Anyone have a clue what the publisher is babling on about?

Wylie - sent you an email from my other account with an explanation. Hopefully you'll get it before your computer goes away (me, I'd hide it and claim it was stolen.....). Peg

Peg? My email to you came back. Wanna email me first and we'll go from there?

Hello Peg and everyone! Meeting Sue and Doc and Sue's husband was marvelous. Yummy talk and interesting food and vice versa. Hoping to get down to the city again soon to take in a movie and cake from Just Desserts with Doc. I'm also trying to figure out how to visit Sue and Joe next summer when my beau and I go to Nebraska for a family picnic. I hear Joe is quite a cook and he sure knows good food! Sue is a force of nature and intelligence--just like I figured :) It was a delightful day altogether. Wooooooooooo!
Peg--would love to see you in September (isn't that a song?) and I live smack in the middle of Sonoma County. San Francisco is only 45 min to an hour away, and depending on when you arrive we could get together and have some fun. I'll email with my phone, etc, as my former spouse gets custody of the computer tomorrow (natch) and my on-line fun will grind down to a depressing only-once-in-a-while. Snail mail and the phone may be the only timely ways to stay in touch until I manage to get another computer. My email will remain intact, I'm just not sure when I'll get to check it. Do judges ever grant visitation rights regarding possessions?
Goodnight to you all--I'll join in when I can. Take care.
Wylie

Doc, Wylie, Sue.... I'm anxiously awaiting news of all the fun you folks had!! How was it??

Peg

Everybody duck - I'm well rested.

Y'know, I think part of the misunderstanding with regards to Harlan and forthcoming works is that whereas most writers keep their "work" cards close to their vest, HE isn't shy about his writing ambitions. If he has six books in the offing, be they writing themselves in his head or coming off the carriage of the Olympia, he's going to mention them. He's a writer. Writers talk up their ideas. It's part and parcel of the creative process, and every writer I've met does it. It's just that Harlan does it publicly. And so when an idea falls out of favor (and for those of you who don't write, believe me - they can fall from grace like rain from the gray), or it goes to the back burner, or the deal falls through, or it gets mangled beyond recognition by editor/publisher/studio/circumstance, with most authors you never know it happened.

Maybe a project surfaces down the road (a la the Hornbook), maybe HE loses interest (which I had heard happened to the "Demon With A Glass Hand" novel), and maybe work continues, albeit slowly (I was encouraged to read in an introduction - and if anyone remembers where HE wrote it, an assist would be appreciated - that HE still spoke to himself in Vic and Blood voices; it's there, somewhere, in the mix). Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Until a book is published, it isn't actually a book, and there's no sense in even worrying about the book until you're reading the actual jacket copy. That's what I've done with Douglas Adams' twice-announced "Salmon Of A Doubt", the third Dirk Gently novel. Hasn't arrived. I hope it does, but with everything else worth reading, I'll cross that bridge when and if it arrives.

Yeah, there are a number of catchy titles that have been spoken aloud - "Dial '9' To Get Out" and "The Sound of a Scythe" and "The Dark Forces: The Salamander Enchantment" and yes, "The Last Dangerous Visions", and over a dozen more that have been listed, mentioned, pre-publication promoted and even solicited. But they're only titles. And titles without text beneath them are ghosts, and should be given as much time and effort. As HE has said, he's dancing as fast as he can. With all the written work so far, the causes he's taken up and championed (usually without personal consideration or compensation), the personal appearances, the seemingly endless autograph lines, personal appearances and new mediums he's tried in the last few years (with a regular television commentary and the number of audio books he's done of late), I think he's entitled to dance at whatever tempo he chooses - it's part of the respect he's earned and deserves.

Joe - I doubt HE would want to punch you in the nose. I think it'd be more of a bored "And?" Ultimately, he writes for himself. The sum total of the words he's obligated to deliver to readers is approximately nil. But I sometimes wonder if the endless carping by people (and I'm not directing this at you, Joe - I understood your question on the glassware story was curiosity driven, and your like of the man's work seems sincere) for this book or that story or such and such collection actually dampens enthusiasm on Harlan's part for those projects. I know creatively I'm less inclined to do something the more I'm badgered about it. Any thoughts anybody?

All - Anyone going to Readercon, having seen the schedule, I wish you all a grand time - HE is going to be hopping, but I'm sure there are numerous treats in store - and if the State of Virginia sees its way clear to send my long-overdue refund, I may just drive up for Saturday/Sunday (everyone clap and perhaps the Tax Tinkerbell will live long enough to deliver the goods.)

HEY PEG (and anyone else listening), no sweat. It's an easy mistake on your part, and I didn't take offense to it for a second. So back to business:

I remember hearing from Rick (a.k.a. Webderland) that Harlan had agreed to write a short story for some collectable-glassware magazine. I even emailed the publisher who told me how I could get a copy of the specific issue for a certain price. But I was sort of broke at that time, and I couldn't afford such luxuries. And I more or less forgot about it. And that's why I asked about it here. I thought someone here might know how it turned out.

I'm sorry to say that I have become rather pessimistic when it comes to "forthcoming" things by HE. Most of the time it isn't his fault (e.g., the Corridor comic books; oops, I meant to say "graphic novels"), but in a recent interview with The Onion (whatever the hell that is) Harlan seemed to be very honest about this fact (thanks to the unusually insightful question of the interviewer), the fact that he can be a pain in the ass to work with, and that sometimes, despite the integrity underlying that aspect of his persoanlty, it does get in the way of things working out for the best. That is to say, projects get going, but they never get finished. It kinda happens a lot with Harlan.

(Note that, nonetheless, I admire the hell out of Harlan. I don't know if I'd want to have three meals a day with him like Susan, but I have more admiration and respect for Harlan than any other person I know but have never met. And I'll bet he wakes up every morning and thanks his pagan gods that he has someone like Susan in his life. I would.)

I don't expect to see the EDGEWORKS series to reach completion. I don't expect to see BLOOD'S A ROVER or THE LAST DANGEROUS VISIONS during my lifetime. And I don't expect to see MEFISTO IN ONYX to make it to the silver screen any time within the next 20 years either.

If Harlan read this, he'd probably want to punch me in the nose. But I'm not saying I don't believe in Harlan. I'm just saying that I don't expect these things to happen. (So when these things *do* happen, I can't tell you how great it makes me feel to be wrong. I think Harlan's the best.)

Anyhow, I didn't mean to trash Harlan with this posting. I was just explaining my previous question about the glassware story. I'm guessing nothing ever came of it.

I look forward to be proven wrong.

(P.S., Rick has my address if anyone feels the need to send me a private message. I don't mind if he gives it out to anyone who requests it.)

By the way, what else has Chad Oliver written besides "Blood's a Rover"? I don't read much SF, so the name is new to me.










ost. We've been whacked so many times before. I took your
comment about the story for the "magazine about collectable glassware" to mean Ellison Under Glass, which was
discussed only days ago; and as Barney correctly surmise, your comment about Blood's a Rover to refer to the
something that's incorrectly associated with Harlan Ellison, also in previous posts just this week.

Again, truly I'm sorry. I hope you won't take my post as a reason to stay away, I'm sure folks will enjoy what you
have to offer.

Joe,

My sincere apologies about misinterpreting your post. We've been whacked so many times before. I took your comment about the story for the "magazine about collectable glassware" to mean Ellison Under Glass, which was discussed only days ago; and as Barney correctly surmise, your comment about Blood's a Rover to refer to the something that's incorrectly associated with Harlan Ellison, also in previous posts just this week.

Again, truly I'm sorry. I hope you won't take my post as a reason to stay away, I'm sure folks will enjoy what you have to offer.

Thanks,
Peg

***JOE***
crap crap crap

sloppy reading on my part - I'll check out the Hartwell anthology.
stupid from the heat...

***JOE***
Your comments pissed Peg off for a couple of different reasons which you may or may not come to understand. Recently Rick Wyatt [Head Pool Cleaner of the Watering Hole That Is Webderland] has asked that people posting here leave their e-mails at least once. I believe this can also be privately to Rick. The reason for this is that this board invites sniping like a bunch of troops crossing an open field in a bunch wearing orange khaki. Why us and not Bruce Sterling - I dunno. I post my real name and e-mail everywhere on the net and this has so far [4 years now] gotten me about 2 pieces of SPAM a day, on average. I'm out about 5 seconds of delete key time and people trust my intentions when I post. A fair trade off in my book.
Regarding Chad Oliver's "Blood's A Rover" - It seemed more likely that your question was a reaction to my previous post [3 posts down] regarding late or unfinished work than to a rather obscure short story from the early 1950's. If memory serves, I have some Chad Oliver upstairs. If it's not in those I'd appreciate it if you could name an anthology it's in so that I might read it.
Until then I remain, guardedly,
Barney Dannelke

Yo Peg,

(1) I'm not trying to waste anyone's time by asking if anyone has read "Blood's a Rover." (I'll get to that in a minute.)

(2) I don't leave my email address on bulletin boards. I've done it before, with the results of receiving junkmail. There are Internet companies who scan boards such as this for email addresses, and then they send these people junkmail, and it's almost impossible to get take off their lists once you're on. I recently got a new email address and I *ain't* putting it out there for anyone to grab. That's just a policy of mine. I'm not trying to hide.

(3) I *haven't* been reading this board lately. If "Blood's a Rover" has come up as a topic of discussion, I wouldn't know about it. Also, I'm not referring to BLOOD'S A ROVER, the unpublished novel by Harlan Ellison...

(4) "Blood's a Rover" is a short story by Chad Oliver published in 1952. I quote: "Oliver tends to focus on motivations and values, rather than violence or action, in his fiction. "I was strongly influenced by writers outside the science fiction field, notably Hemingway and Steinbeck," he said."

(5) That quote is from THE SCIENCE FICITON CENTURY (a Tor book), edited by David G. Hartwell, 1997, in which the story "Blood's a Rover," by Chad Oliver (not Harlan Ellison) appears on page 961.

(6) It's a nice little story (a little over 30 pages), and I thought I'd tell you all about it incase you didn't know.

Yo Joe,

Your comments indicate you'd been reading the board lately (inferred from your subject matter, which was recently mentioned or discussed in several posts). And doubtless, you realize the questions you ask have no good answers. I'm sure your just a little misguided. Or not.

Since I'm generally a polite person, let me bring you up to speed on the board netiquette. First, we generally prefer civil, though not always agreeable, posts with a reason to be here. Not posts whose intent is plainly to cause ire and waste time.

Second, please include an email when posting. We all do by request of the web-meister hereabouts. That way, when someone puts insulting, provocative, or obviously-meant-to-irritate remarks, we can respond in private about the apparent excess of time on one's hands since one has already done everything else that is better to do with one's time and have worked one's way down the list to posting insulting, proocative, or obviously-meant-to-irritate posts on the webderland bulletin board.

Thanks kindly, and I'm sure we'll enjoy your company much better now.
Peg

Anyone ever read "Blood's a Rover?"

In Defense of Harlan Ellison - An essay by Barney Dannelke [Prompted by the fact that it's just too damned hot to go out and play.] Part of what follows is a reposting of a response to some charges made against Harlan on alt.fan.Ellison awhile back. The poster (who shall remain nameless here) went out of his way to insult Susan and then went on to imply that Harlan had done virtually nothing during the period 1989 -1993. Now, anybody who knows Harlan at all, knows that he is seldom, if ever, "doing nothing". So, I went to consult one of my notebooks and came across this...

With regard to your question of Harlan's output from 1989-1993......
My outline indicates this was a relatively slow period;

1 Gauntlet app.
1 Harpers app.
3 stories published in Omni
5 app.'s in Fantasy and Science Fiction
1 chapbook
2 poster stories
2 new stories published elsewhere
6 anthology app.'s
5 interviews of some length including the Winokur piece.
3 writers conferences
4 large science fiction conventions
3 smaller ones
a dozen or so tv app.'s
6 long essays
5 short essays
4 new introductions to his own work
1 lawsuit
14 new introductions or afterwords to the works of others
1st season work on Babylon 5
preliminary work on Mind Fields

the re-issueing of
A) Deathbird
B) Spider Kiss
C) No Doors, No Windows
D) Run For the Stars [as a TOR double]
E) Ensavark [the Swedish retrospective]
F] Dreams With Sharp Teeth [a QPB trade ed.]
G] 3 different editions of Mefisto in Onyx
H] Vic and Blood [w. Rich Corben/2 editions]

I realize A thru H represent no new material, but I would assert that these books don't spring from the foreheads of publishers without a little work on the part of the author.

Oh, and also;
The Essential Ellison
The Harlan Ellison Hornbook
Harlan Ellison Watching

Which, taken together, represent about 1500 pages of previously uncollected material. I realize this isn't quite the productive period it could have been but for a guy in his late 50's with Epstein-Barr and 85-90% blockage in a couple of arteries trying to enjoy the salad days of his fifth marriage it's not a bad slump.

And that was my response. Now I realize that defending Harlan is about as necessary a task as defending Jet Li . But lately I keep hearing a lot of "whatever happened to?", "did he ever finish?",
why didn't this come out when it was supposed to?". Man, give it a freakin' rest already. THINK about what's in the Glass Teats, and then imagine writing footnotes useful enough to bring a culture this stupid up to speed and concise enough to not have it run into a 3 volume set. Think about the way the bottom has fallen out of the comic book market [despite what Geppi/Diamond would have you believe] and ask yourself what the point would be in doing more Dream Corridor issues when Dark Horse is still WAY in the hole on the previous issues. And finally, regarding new works, although it's been said about a thousand times already, do you want it GOOD or do you want it next Thursday. Sheesh.

PS. Doc, Nicole, DTS, Xanadu, send me your current snail mails as I'll have something for you next week.
PSS. who all's goin to RedaerCon 11. Say hello. Later folks.
PSSS. Hey Rick, thanks for the bandwidth, especially since you've said all this before. And better.

Speaking of things written by The Man, does anyone know if HE ever got around to writing that short story for that magazine that specializes in collectable glass-ware?

Well, I haven't seen Wild Wild West yet. I'll probably go see it with my family, though I don't expect much. I do, however, have a movie recommendation of my own. While I won't deny that the movie is unsuitable for children, I highly encourage any free thinking adult in the mood for intelligent satire disguised as low-brow potty humor to go see South Park. I'm not a fan of the show (I watch it once in a blue moon) but I think this movie really layered itself well. Yes it's crass. Yes it's crude. Yes there are some rather unfortuate scenes that even caused me to cringe. However, I really enjoyed the movie because, all in all, it really said things that needed to be said. But, maybe that's just me.

As for Neverwhere. I loved the BBC mini, even recorded it, and the book is wonderful. I highly recommend it.

---Peter (typing sloppily)

Sue! Excellent! Hug Doc and Wylie for me!

Ah-hah. Okay. Now it all makes sense. Speaking of EDGEWORKS. . .Whatever became of Edgeworks Five? (The Glass Teat and The Other Glass Teat). Just curious. And, yes, I will be looking for the book this series is based on. Until next time. . .

*On the Road Again* will be in the SF area day after tomorrow - be warned Doc and Wylie :-) Anyone with bail mone..err... who wants to join in the fun, e-mail wylie or Doc and let us know :-)

Be home, and posting again in another 2 weeks or so..

Jim - You mean "Neverwhere", based on NG's novel - which is a fine read, if you haven't part-taken. And yes, HE has a collaboration in the works with NG, earmarked for the Edgeworks 6 reprinting of "Partners In Wonder". All - for those of you on the road this weekend, have a safe and sane trip, steer clear of cheap fireworks, and if you see a metallic aqua blur zip past in the Carolinas, that would be your Friendly Neighborhood Finder on a mission to sand, sun and surf.

Sorry, folks. Haven't been around much. Too much fun to have. Anyhoo, the reason I came by here is actually two-fold. First up, on the subject of THE MATRIX (hey, I told you: I haven't been around much, so this may be the makings of a twice-chewed meal; lay off, huh?) I picked up this show on PBS called something like NEVERSCAPE (or something like that). A lotta similiarities between it and THE MATRIX. Neil Gamian (Gamien?) is listed in the credits. Didn't Harlan work with him? Second point here, where IS Harlan Ellison anyway? I was thinking of something he had read in the workshop he did almost a year ago and I will be screwed to cheese to remember the name. I remember part of the passage he read was built on the repetitious emphasis of the sun. If he's lurking Out There, pop up and offer forth the name of this novel. I would call, but, well, that isn't proper and I don't want my chops busted for trivia. Until next time. . .

Hmm. Interesting to hear that someone actually received an ELLISON UNDER GLASS refund. I gave up after two years of trying, a few phone calls to ol' DWS, and a half a dozen letters. Figured I'd run into him at a convention sometime and find $75 sliding from his wallet to mine. Unfortunately, I've been to one convention in my life. Still have that damned credit card receipt somewhere. Maybe it's time to start badgering Smith again.

ALL: Anyone had a chance to see "The Wild, Wild West" movie yet? If not, my recommendation is -- don't bother. I took my daughter to it today. She's nine. She liked it. I suppose kids might like it. But it's bad in the way that "Batman & Robin" was bad. Before it came out, I told my wife that I thought they'd mess up the movie by doing the same thing the guys who made all those "Roger Moore" James Bond movies: instead of taking a far-out premise and treating it seriously (the way Sean Connery did, or Pierce Brosnan does), and letting comedic moments slip in naturally, they set the whole thing up as farce from the beginning, having their actors play the roles like stooges and throwing too many sight gags (not to mention horrid writing). The old t.v. show treated the "Jim West," SF/western premise with the same respect that Connery did his James Bond role. The big screen version of "Wild, Wild West" does a "Roger Moore" on what is, essentially, an unbeatable formula -- and manages to trash a terrific opportunity in the process. What a waste. On the plus side, I rented "The Faculty" last night, thinking I'd be watching a no-brainer, B+ horror flick (even though Kevin Williamson wrote it), and was pleasantly surprised. Williamson knows his old SF flicks (and novels) as well as the slice and dice horror genre. What's more, this film had less graphic violence than his others. And a lot of smart references to Heinlein, Finney and "The Thing" (both film versions). Very cool. Not to mention some clever twists (saving the world by abusing substances; and an alien species that offers a world where no one is picked on because of their differences -- as long as one doesn't mind being a mindless slave). And there's a pretty neat ending to boot. Out here, DTS.

jeff: I had the same problem regarding ELLISON UNDER GLASS. Except, through persistence, I kept in touch with D.W. Smith, (tracking down his new phone number and address via articles about Pulphouse and by calling information -- in Washington). At first, Smith told me that the publication had been canceled, and that he had to pay off several other major creditors, so I agreed to wait patiently. Then, after nearly two years of calling (every few months or so) and/or writing about the status of my refund and getting no answer, I finally got in touch with him by sending a no-nonsense message via email to his wife (Kristine Katherine Rusch, who has a website -- I would've been happy with a letter from Dean saying he had gotten so far in debt that he might never get to me, or a note now and then saying he had forgotten, or even a return phone call -- after the money I'd spent -- but totally ignoring the situation, after I'd been a loyal, paying supporter of the Hardback magazine -- bought about 12 or 14 of those suckers at $20 a pop -- and other of their admittedly fine products...well, let's just say it really ticked me off). And suffice it to say that my note (with a return, regular mailing address) got results. I got a response from Dean and a check only one week later. Just another avenue of answers for anyone else (like myself or "jeff") who have found themselves on the short end of the stick regarding monetary recompense and good old fashioned courtesy and manners. Out here, DTS. (P.S. In the end, after all the money spent on long distance phone calls, I think I ended up about $20.00 short on my $75 refund).

Mike, Pulphouse quietly went out of business a few years ago and ELLISON UNDER GLASS was never published.

I, too, ordered a copy at a pre-publication rate and wound up getting the Sheckley book and an unsolicited subscription to Tomorrow magazine. I wrote a letter to the only address I had for Pulphouse requesting a refund (I had paid for a signed, limited edition) but got no response.

I mentioned this to Harlan at a signing he did here, expecting him to say "Gee, that's tough luck," but he immediately offered to try to get the money back for me. I wound up sending Harlan a letter (to Pulphouse) at his HERC address (which is available elsewhere on this website) with as much documentation as I had, including a copy of the cancelled check and the unanswered letter. Within a few weeks I got a full refund from Dean Wesley Smith, former proprietor of Pulphouse and now an occasional Star Trek novelist.

(I sent Harlan a thank-you note and promised him I would spend the proceeds on EDGEWORKS volumes!)

Give it a shot; you got nothing to lose at this point.

Finder, thanks for the assist.

Hello, there.
Does anyone out there have any info on an Ellison collection from about 1990 or 1991, called, "Ellison Under Glass"? It was supposed to come from Pulphouse Publishing. I ordered a copy in May of '90. Sometime after that, I received from Pulphouse a paperback collection (FIVE volumes) of the short fiction of Robert Sheckley. Pulphouse sent it as,"...our way of saying thanks for hanging on and believing in the ELLISON UNDER GLASS project." That is the last I have heard of it. Anyone out there know what happened to it, or, for that matter, Pulphouse?

Charlie - I found a web site (and have since lost it) that identified HE was doing the Forward to "Pot Stories for the Soul". Makes sense in a way, as HE has historical ties to the counter-culture, a niche Paul Krassner (who is assembling "Pot Stories...") inhabits. Krassner also appears to have been tied to "Growing Medical Marijuana Organically" by Amazon - I would guess in the case of the latter, unless HE is also doing some king of introductory material there as well, it's just an odd cross-pollination by the brainchildren at Amazon, who still insist that "Blood's Rover" is an out of print Ellison title.

I did an amazon search on HE, and it shows 2 books, not yet published, that associates his name. The titles of the books are "Pot Stories for the Soul" and "Growing Medical Marijuana Organically". Does anyone have info. on these items, as amazon doesn't. There is mention of the Outer Limits book, due October.

charlie:

It's A Canadian publishing(see below).
shipping is "no charge surface mail" 3 day delivery.

publisher: HarperCollins Canada, Limited
publication date: October 1998
isbn: 0732259177

Thanks for the info Shane, I cruised the site and got some other NASFiC info on email. Problem is they don't have a program yet (not even preliminary). The stuff that is currently on the website - art show, dance, costume/masque - is nice but not my cup-o-tea. I'm really interested in attending for the panels and other bits, so I gotta hold my breath and turn blue till they can give some more detail. I will definitely let you know if I'm gonna go so we can meet up.

(I suppose, in the grand scheme, if I donated $500 to have a phone call, I could spend at least that much to meet HE in person. Then again the cash ain't going to charity here....)

Thanks again,
Peg

Also, I should clarify the book was $24.95 (Aussie $) and the S&H (airmail) was $20. I suppose if you wanted surface rate, the S&H are cheaper.

Al, that certainly would be a savings. Is the book a Canadian publication or an Aussie import?

charlie & other interested parties:

"Dreaming Down Under" is available from Indigo Books.
It's the Canadian version of Amazon.com
**www.indigo.ca**
At $19.95 Canadian it's a bargain.(unless the Aussie buck is
worth a lot less than I think it is).

aw

Hey All- I finally located and received a copy of "Dreaming Down Under", which Locus has touted as the Australian Dangerous Visions. (a couple of the stories have been reprinted in the latest Dozois Best Of anthology) It even has 33 stories, and an intro. and afterword to each story. It's edited by Jack Dann & Janeen Webb. It even has a nice 2 page introduction by HE, who mentions that he wanted to do an Aussie anthology in the early 80s. I've tried locating the book in the US, but to no avail. Even many Aussie book stores were out and the book has not been re-printed, yet. ANYWAY, for those who may wish to purchase a copy, contact Slow Glass Books, by phone/fax at 011-61-39-6391511. The store is located in Melbourne, and last I spoke to them they had loads of copies. Oh yeah, the price, well I was charged $45 Aussie dollars. You do the conversion;I've already done the hard work locating the book.

1st time poster, been lurking awhile and got curious about y'all.

If I'm going to come up with a reason to escape my evil boss and attend the convention in Anaheim, how do I find out which day HE will be holding forth? I do not wish to escape in vain, only to find myself lured across the street from the convention center to you know where.....

Thank you all for your thoughts and condolences. It was a difficult week. School ended yesterday and my final act as a teacher (before taking my leave of absence for a year) was to sing our school song with a bunch of the kids at this lady's memorial service. The service was an odd combination of tears and rejoicing. There was much music, which in this situation, is about the only thing I found comforting. I let the tears out. Tears are the sweat of a soul working hard to detoxify. It helped somewhat. Again, thanks for your kindnesses here.

Keegan, and, even more belatedly, Gary from Canada--sorry to read of your losses.

Sue--Yes, a healthy skepticism is a useful thing. I gathered my info from four years as a Borders employee, from pre K-mart, through K-Mart, to Borders, Inc. Two of those years as an Office Manager. My store, #29, was built and in operation for more than a year before the K-Mart buyout.

PEG: NASFIC can be found at www.99.nasfic.org

To answer a few of your questions:

NASFIC's in L.A. (actually, Anahiem and across the street from Disneyland) are LARGE. 5,000 attending members would not surprise me. However, size means variety. There is always something to see, someone to listen to, someplace to go to.

I'm planning on attending because Harlan is scheduled to talk/sign autographs for three hours. Joe Straczynski (B5 / CRUSADE is also supposed to be there and I enjoy his talks nearly as much as I enjoy Harlan speaking. No offense to Joe, Harlan has been speaking for decades longer then Joe.

that would be..."to see Harlan *and* meet some..." geez

Are any webderfolks planning to go to NASFIC in LA in August? I'm debating on going (am seeing some cheap airfares at the moment) but have a couple of strikes against me...
a) I've never been to a con (hangs head in shame)
b) Obligatory relative visitation if I hit the LA area
c) My only reason for attending would be to see Harland meet some of you kind people (okay, that's not a strike per se, but it's a pretty limited reason to go and spend up to $1000 for tickets, planes, car rental, etc.)

Has anyone here been to NASFIC before? Is it huge and overwhelming? Do they have a website (none's listed in the appearances section here - already checked)?

Cheers,
Peg

Since finder asked...

I attended HeroesCon and thought some of you might be interested in the HE portion of a "con report" I sent to a mailing list I'm on...

========
I spent a nice chunk of Friday upstairs with Harlan Ellison. When I entered the room, there were less than a dozen people in line for autographs but it still took me an hour to reach him. He talked to everyone and would frequently stop to tell stories and answer questions (and how he gets the "grouchy" image, I'll never know. He might've intimidated a few people, but he was more than pleasant during the time I spent there.) When his listed time for a reading came, he cut the signing line and asked if the audience would rather have a reading or stories. We got both.

He started telling stories that led into other stories (each time making sure to finish the one he started) and here're a few of the topics covered, all while he was eating a crappy tasting sandwich...

- Detective #567 is his favorite comic that he's written
- "Bill & Ted" movie is a guilty pleasure
- Roger Ebert has not asked him to fill in for Gene.
- To Michael Moore: "F*ck you, fatass." (re: a question about Moore's comments pertaining to directors getting or deserving more credit. I *think* this was the question. I *know* this was his answer.)
- Mind Fields is his favorite book of his (and he ended with a reading of "Base" from this book).

He then proceeded to sign autographs for those that missed out before the stories, so I went back downstairs. I would have loved to have attended the HE sessions the other two days, (especially when he said each day is "new material" and not repeated from a previous day), but I wanted to see some of the other guests as well.

==========

If anyone has reports from the other two days, I'd be interested in reading them.

By the way, HeroesCon is a *great* show and the only reason I'm not going back next year is because I'm planning a trip to San Diego for my "one con a year" visit. A trip to Charlotte for this con is not the worst thing you could do.

Greetings from a first-time poster.....

I attended HeroesCon in Charlotte, NC this past weekend and had a blast being entertained by Harlan's lectures and panel discussions and chatting with him briefly.
Can anyone else who was there tell me if the missing book situation was ever resolved?
And if Barney is listening, it was nice meeting you (albeit briefly). Thanks for showing me the George Carlson book too.

KEEGAN, Alex, Gary - *HUG* :-( It sucks. And nuthin I can do about it, except try to keep the torches going that others lit for me.

Todd and jeff - I checked it out, and you are right. DANG!! Seems my little trip down Memory Lane shoulda been called Gullible's Travels! I was remembering the months and months worth of weekly "Grand Opening" Sales Border's had after the K-Mart buy-out.. Seems that K-Mart was just publicizing the pre-existing stores they bought, that Border's never mentioned... SHEESH!! Well, at least it explains how K-Mart 'built' all those stores so fast.. We kinda wondered about it at the time.. Think I'm gonna give up having a "favorite" business of any variety, you just can't believe what business tells you..

Al - I will inform the security guards at K-mart that I am spitting as your proxy.. ;-)

Nicole -- alas, the presence of Harlan and Susan on the board was a fun but fleeting hiccup in the normal order of things. True to form, AOL made the time an ordeal and a half for them both. Still, if you scroll down to the bottom of the board, you should still be able to read the results.

Rick, where ever you may be -- could you, er, archive? It's just that the board is getting awfully large (and we remember what happened last time).

---Peter

I used to post occasionally, quit for a while to enjoy the fruits of lurkdom, and now return....

Keegan: Twelve years ago I lost the best English teacher anyone ever had to a brain tumor. I visited her about a week before she died and she was so horribly changed physically that the vision still haunts me.

But her spirit was there, untouched by the ravages of chemotherapy, and it’s that spirit I hold in my heart. Besides the fact that this woman showed me I could write, believed I could write, she also thought I had the power to corral words and make them work for me, she showed me how Shakespeare lives in all literature, the difference between its and it’s, and how NEVER to use the word ‘snuck’ unless I wanted to end up as a television news anchor.

And she said it was o.k. to read everything Harlan Ellison every wrote as long as I took his suggestions about other stuff to read as well. Even then she saw I had in me the tiniest of voices and style, and knew it could be drowned if I didn’t take a look at the works of other writers. So I credit her with my introduction to the works of Ellison. Just as I credit HE with showing me worlds of literature I never dreamed existed.

Hardly a day goes by when I don’t think of her. And sometimes, when I’m having a rough time getting started on a story, I can hear her voice telling me to shut up and WRITE IT DOWN.

So I mourn for your loss, and your friend’s children’s loss, and the loss of her to students everywhere. But I know your friend has influenced hundreds of people, directly and indirectly, just as my teacher did. So she’ll live on in all of us.

Hello all! I've returned from the deep, dark, strangling grasp of the "real world", back to the sanctity of the boards...long time no see, all. Regulars- missed each and every one of yas, especially Rick and Barney. Just sticking my head out to let you all know I'm gonna be back in full swing again. I had heard a rumor a while back that Susan got a subscription for one free month of AOL not too long ago...what happened with that? Also, anyone got HE's latest appearance on PI that they could possibly copy and send to me, or perhaps would trade for something? ::mutters to herself "can't believe I missed it..." and thumps herself on the head::

Keegan, our hearts go out to you. The latest reason for my reading aloud to soothe my wife is because the chemotherapy fucks her up pretty badly. We¹re in our second bout with breast cancer in just under two years.

My wife and I were supposed to get married in July, next month. When her diagnosis came in February we decided to get married immediately, before all her treatments began. Best decision we ever made.

We fight back with life, as best we can. That is no platitude.

I have no other answers, and I had no other answers two years ago when she was first diagnosed and treated as we met and fell in love. For this disease to have taken so many, so much away from the world, THAT is monstrous. Our hearts go out to you.

KEEGAN: My thoughts are with you, with the two boys now bereft of a mother, and with the hundreds of schoolchildren deprived of the joy that having such a good teacher always is. The universe sucks, yes. But each death; each horrid happening, DOES help, in some small fashion, by bringing the rest of us closer together, and by imbuing those left behind to better emulate the shining light whose bright glow has forever dimmed.
Cold comfort, I know, but in a sucky universe, we have to take what we can get, make what we cannot, and deal with that which cannot be remade.

As for my current reading list--I just finished three Lawrence Blocks I bought at the Encore Books (another chain now in the last throes of death)--and I even just got an e-mail from Block himself (Peter, Finder, and anyone else here who wants to be a writer: Go seek out Block's books on writing, notably WRITING THE NOVEL, TELLING LIES FOR FUN AND PROFIT, and SPIDER, SPIN ME A WEB. Perhaps the best books on writing I've ever read.)! In addition, I'm reading THE ACTS OF KING ARTHUR AND HIS NOBLE KNIGHTS by Steinbeck, one of the old "Best of F & SF" books from the sixties, a few of Asimov's books of collected essays, THE DRAGONS OF EDEN by Carl Sagan, and FEAR AND LOATHING ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL by Hunter S. Thompson.
Next up: ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLITUDE by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, THE PAPERBOY by Pete Dexter, CONFESSIONS OF A MASK by Yukio Mishima, and THE MYSTERIOUS STRANGER AND OTHER CURIOuS TALES, a compendium of Mark Twain's more obscure stories, including his last novel.

(Oh; and leave us not forget the newly-purchased KAREN AMEN'S TIGHT BUNS, TRIM THIGHS--though I've been really happy with my progress at the gym these last few months, more needs to be done to firm up my Writer's Butt. Laugh if you like.)

Plus, I'm reading over my own novel, so I can better FINISH the farchachtah thing!

Third-time poster, long time lurker:

Sue: It would seem that you may have been in error for spitting on Kmart because of the Borders issue. I feel that the only way to correct this miscalculation is to spit on them again. After all, we're talking about Kmart. How tough can it be to come up with a perfectly legitimate reason.:)
I'd do it myself but I think cross border expectorating is an extraditable offence.

All: Despite some well presented theories regarding the Littleton tragedy I still have to conclude that it is called "senseless" violence for a reason.
The only answer I can come up with to respond to all the questions that arise is: "I don't know." There should be more to say, but anything else I might offer would just be speculation, no matter how sincere.

OK..... I'll play..........what am I readin'?
Just finished "The Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove" by Christopher Moore. Another fine piece of work from one of the great wackos of our time.
........guaranteed to be mind alterring with no adverse side effects.

First-time poster; long-time lurker. Todd Mason is correct re the history of Borders. Borders already had 19 stores when it was acquired by Kmart; and Kmart can be blamed for nothing that has happened to this chain since they ditched it to raise cash in 1994. -- Jeff (also a native of Ann Arbor and friend of two-time Borders store manager).

Just an advance notice... The hubby and I will be heading south on vacation during late September. We'll be in the San Fran/Sonoma area for a few days, then to Ashland, Oregon for a few. If any of you fine webderfolks would like to get together please email me at the above and we can talk specifics.

Ciao....Peg

Finder -- F&SF has usually been very good about getting back to me with rejection letters. However I'm experiencing a new one here. I haven't heard word one about my last story, and I'm starting to believe that it, or the return were lost in the mail. Oh well, to borrow your battle cry, I too have not yet begun to write... maybe I should.

Keegan -- my condolences.

---Peter

Right now, I'm wrapping up Simmons' "Carrion Comfort", with King's "Hearts In Atlantis" (gotta love advanced reading copies), Kerouac's "Desolation Angels" and intermittant continued re-reading of "Stalking The Nightmare" - as I'm still working on my review - in the near future. Writing keeps poking up and my muse gets cranky when I don't listen. Oh, and in writing news, strike one from F&SF - my story hurried back to my box, but with an encouraging 'liked the storytelling, but the story was familiar' in the reject letter. C'est la vie. I have not yet begun to write...

Well, I'm here today because one of my colleagues died of cancer this weekend. I know this is one of the few places where I can express my anger at the universe over this. I'm pissed. This woman was a great teacher. She helped me get through some of the rougher aspects of school beaurocracy. She was an effective teacher who treated kids like people, not projects. She welcomed them not only into her classroom but into her life.

I went to see her the day before she died. The only comfort I have is that I got to tell her how much she meant to me and got to thank her for all she did for me and the kids.

Her own children, two of them very young boys (kindergartner and second grader)are left motherless. She was only 45. I railed at the universe in my car after seeing her and I'm railin' now. WHY?
She gave us all so much, it isn't fair and I am mad, mad, mad.

I'm also sad she's gone, glad she's not in the pain she was in when I last saw her, and happy I got to know her. I'm also exhausted from crying, because today, at school, it became real. This woman who fought so hard to get better so she could return to her classroom and see her youngest child graduate from high school never will. She was still joking and comforting me in the worst of her pain. You didn't know her, but education just lost another "good" one.

Thanks for listening.

I like the way these checks are prompted with some regularity. Dangerous Visions and A,DV here, finally. The Crossing, by Cormac McCarthy. And really and honestly on the nightstand is To Kill a Mockingbird, because intermittently I¹ve been reading aloud to my wife to help her sleep.

What¹s on the way? Hell¹s Angels, Hunter Thompson. Junky, William Burroughs. And I think some William Goldman. Temple of Gold, or Boys and Girls Together.

And with bated breath I¹m looking forward to seeing HE at ReaderCon.

Reading list check.

Simply because I like to know what everyone else is reading, here is my current nightstand (figuratively of course, my real nightstand runneth over with books). I'm currently read The Moon and Sixpence, by Somerset Maugham, The Silver Eggheads by Fritz Leiber, The Wastelands by Stephen King, The Wastelands by T.S. Eliot (must read the Eliot poem and King book at same time) And I attempted Wetbones by John Shirley, but I couldn't get into it.

---Peter

Anybody have any two-fisted tales from Harlan's appearance this weekend at the Heroes Con in Charlotte?

Todd - I have no idea what has gone on with Borders after the K-mart buyout, because Borders stopped being a matter of interest to me after that. I DO know that there was only ONE Border's store prior to that buy-out, which was located on State Street in Ann Arbor for almost 20 years, and moved one street down to the old Jacobson's Dept Store on the Liberty Block after that (and is still there). The second "Borders" was opened in the Towne Mall (Novi, MI) a few months later with a lot of ballyhoo. I know that, because I live here, patronized Borders all that time - and got to know the owners as a result (who have now started a new used bookstore called "Dave's Books" - and we have our fingers crossed). I don't know where you got that information from, but it's inaccurate.

In all the talk in various places about the school shootings, I find it curious that no one says: Hey, there's no real help for kids like these--or there is ... it's called "medication," which sure seemed to help Kip Kinkel, not to mention ... the list is growing every day. I speak as one who has had his birth family ruined by shrinks. Electroshock for my mom before I was born. When I was thirteen, she attempted suicide, showed up at a psych ward, and they let her out the next morning without (as they legally have to do in Canada) phoning my family. She committed suicide an hour later, leaving a note in which she said that my dad obviously didn't care or else he would have gone to the hospital--but they didn't phone!! I personally know dozens of people who have had their lives destroyed by shrinks. I knew a teenager who got in legal trouble and was sent for a "psychiatric evaluation," and, three months on Prozac later, he hanged himself. What passes for news is corporate news, and the corporate news is hiding the fact that modern-day psychiatry has destroyed more people's lives than Hitler--I say that in all seriousness. Those kids in Columbine needed help, and there was--and there is--nothing there for them. Except chemical warfare called psychiatry. Also, people saying that "it's fruitless to blame the parents," as Jan Wenner, editor of Rolling Stone, did in a essay in his mag, along with thousands of people saying the same thing, only shows how ignorant people are about parenting. Of course they didn't do their jobs as parents!!

Sue--K-mart doesn't own, and hasn't owned, Borders for over five years, and they began expanding well before Kresge bought into them. Borders Inc has been the driving force (of greed) behind the ever-blander selection of that chain...(the first, longer version of this message seems to have been eaten, electronically, so sorry if this appears and is redundant...)

SUE--Borders was significantly lessened by the K-Mart takeover, but K-mart spun Borders and Waldenbooks (and a few other little Walden subsidiary chains) off more than five years ago, now. Borders, Inc, has been a rapacious monster all by its lonesome for some time now, and even before K-mart bought in in 94, Borders was already expanding its store load and considering cutting back its title base. It surely wasn't K-Mart that fought the IWW unionization drive in Philadelphia tooth and nail, but the post-Kresge money-grubbers...when one of the IWW demands was a return to the fuller title-base.
Also, folks, not to minimize the ugliness of the insanity in Littleton, but have you all noticed a series of massacres, some small part of which was done in all we Americans' name (such as bombing a civilian bus and, as Beijing has spared no breath in consistently reminding us, the PRC embassy--like most nations, the PRC wants exclusive rights to mow down their own citizens), in Kosovo, to say nothing of less-well-covered points around the world and withing our borders, so to speak?

Best wishes to Stephen King.

If everything goes well for him, I'm sure we should see a book or twelve about this experience from him in about six months or so. :)

-chris

CNN is reporting that Steven King is recovering well from surgery after yesterday's car/pedestrian accident. Here's to a speedy recovery.

OK. In the order they arrived.

Peter - Personal responsibility has no geographic limit. I just argue with the "everyone is responsible" logic. I have had, up to this point, very little influence on the world as a whole. In fact I believe it is unimaginably hard for any individual to so influence the world. I did not know those people, so I could not act to stop them. To assign me some kind of "societal blame" is an empty no-answer. I have made it a point to be pro-active in my life. If I see a situation that is wrong or dangerous, I act. I have put myself into personal danger because of that compulsion. (With my daughter, now, I have been re-evaluating my position - since my responsibility to her is more apparent and immediate than my responsibility to my community.) I would not, could not have allowed Kitty Genovese to die, and I could not have stood by and let those "monsters" in Columbine do what they did. But I didn't know them...

Sue - I agree wholeheartedly, but I will add this. A public trial, even if it leads to the same result as a suicide, is closure. We are allowed to grieve, and we are allowed to speak those things publicly that now we can only say to each other in small groups.

Alex - Monsters. The definition is in their actions. That all of us have thought those things, replayed them over and over in our heads, destroyed the world in a fiery bloodbath, does not make us monsters. We can only judge monsters by their actions. I hold dear the right to think bad things, to say bad things, to imagine awful worlds where such bad things happen. It is called freedom of expression.

There is no right to actually do bad things. Those that do are judged by individuals and society. I will call them monsters because I am tired of the ceaseless notoriety someone gains by doing awful things. They have, by their actions, gained more world attention than I ever will in my lifetime of doing the simple things I do. Making them anonymous "monsters" is my answer to the psychological thrill they get imagining their names in the headlines.

I cannot agree with your statement that the act of securing a gun necessitates loading it, which then necessitates aiming it, which leads irrevocably to firing it at another human being. They are physical steps that require active participation by a human mind. I do agree that they lived in a fantasy world and their decisions were not those of a rational human being. What I was saying is that no "thing" can pull a trigger - only a human mind who wishes it pulled.

Ultimately, what I wanted to point out is that this search for a clue, cause, or answer will be a very unfulfilling one for all of us, because as soon as we have settled on the "answer", some new monster will come along and start everything over. We cannot legislate human nature, and we will always be surprised by the depravity and degeneracy our race is capable of inflicting on ourselves.

This is not to say we can't do anything, but let us all try to keep our goals reasonable. I have acknowledged that I will likely not change the world, but I will do my damndest to make my small part of it just a little better than I found it.

Couple points I want to address here.

We're looking for blame; for causal events or entities in the myriad school shootings so prevalent these days.
While I understand that that's the normal human impulse in these situations, especially for the victims and those close to them (my cousin is Nancy Spungen's mother, so I've seen this stretched to the extreme), it's wrong.
Dead wrong.

The problem with doing this is that there are just too many variables to consider, and we tend to focus on one or two, often ones that have no real bearing on what happened, but are tangible targets for our anger (witness the furor over videogames and movies as well as the demonization of the Colorado shooters' parents, who, from all accounts, really did try to raise their kids right).

It's not any one thing, sadly; it's not a disease that will respond easily to a simple societal vaccine.

And it sure as Sheboygan ain't "monsters".

We're all of us monsters, every one.

We've all strangled our bosses.
We've all pulled out a Glock and shot the moron working on one failing braincell who insists on pulling in front of us on the expressway, only to drag along at a steady twenty miles an hour, weaving so that we can't pass.
We've all smacked around our parents.

We've done all these things and more.
In the theaters of our minds.

The thing we have to focus on is what will keep people from moving these little crimes-of-passion plays out of the venue between their ears and onto the stage of reality.
Someone spoke of the acts of picking up. loading, aiming, and firing a gun; that this process takes a decision with each successive action.
Rather, it takes a decision, I feel, NOT to continue with the process. Once said process is begun, it becomes a slippery-slope function, with each act leading to the next; indeed, _necessitating_ the next.

Is it that we need to imbue our children (and, let's face it, our adults) with a better understanding of the finality of death?
I don't know; it seems that the Colorado kids had that lesson already; they had, after all, hunted--they had seen the horror of seeing all the vitality and spark go out of a rabbit or stag once shot; they had the experience of feeling the thrill of triumph at a shot well placed evaporate with the sight of the animal laying there, never to give the same allure it had in life.

How do we break the process of reactive roleplaying "I'm gonna kill him. Yeah, with a gun. Yeah, with the gun in the closet. Lemme get it out. Lemme just feel what it's like to hold it. Aim it. Yeah, bang! Bang! Kill them dead!" that leads to the person acting out their fantasies?
How do we stop the followthrough?

Obviously, as Willy Loman declaimed, "Attention must be paid!" But do we really know to what and when said attention must be paud? Can we really ascribe any one cause to these things? Is there any one defining moment in the making of a pathology?

I think the best we can do is try to recognize the procession of events and impulses, that we can better work to break the chain.

Better we bolster than blame; and, sadly, these shootings themselves provide us with the impetus to do just that..
We can teach our children through the scenes of tearful funerals, through the demonization of those to blame. We can show them how horrible it is to have life cruelly ripped away; to have friends torn from us.
It's a hell of an example to have to learn by, but we have to take it.

Hmmmm - looks like the discussion has comepletely run the gamut for blaming now - from blaming *everyone* (ie society), through all it's subsets of categories, to blaming only the two young men who pulled the triggers. I do agree with you Maggie - the logical response is to look for causes with an eye to prevention in the future. But Peter is right, we'll blame anything rather than take a hard look inside to see how much I-Me personally contribute to circumstances that support and spawn those kinds of horrific events - and that IS where we need to start looking, cause it's the ONLY thing we CAN change. Sad thing is, all the rhetoric does not seem to accomplish the desired "answer" or absolution - but we just can't let it go, because Finder is right about the need for closure - so more victims are added to the list of casualties, as blame becomes judgement, and judgement becomes punishment.

I keep tripping over the false notion that suicide is the *easy* way out. There is nothing easy about it. That's why ritual suicide (ie sepuku) restored honor to the surviving family. That's why Masada has endured as a noble symbol of human spirit unbowed. That's why Kevorkian has clientelle. We commonly refer to suicide as a "last resort" or even "ultimate sacrifice". I don't like the idea that whether someone is a "hero", "coward", or "monster" for committing suicide is determined by the judgements of people without a clue who the deceased were. So, if the two young men in Littleton had not committed suicide, what is the worst punishment they faced from society? Capital punishment. Errrr.. Haven't they already "paid their debt to society" in the terms their society taught them - to the maximum, voluntarily? Why do we need to judge them any more?

One last thing that bugs me - personal responsibility is not the same as individual responsibility. The former takes into account that people are social animals, they participate and influence each other through those social groupings, and each and every member of a group bears responsibility for what those groups cause - in addition to responsibility for their solo actions. The latter presumes every person has complete freedom of choice without any reference to anything outside themselves, so *everything* can be assigned to some *one* person as their sole responsibility - and if a direct causal connection cannot be found linking that individual to a consequence, they are not responsible for it in any way. Seems to be some confusion over which is which..

Xanadu: Great essay. However, you said that that everyone is not to blame "'cause I didn't know them, could not have influenced them." Here are my questions. Where does that attitude end? Does it end just outside the State limits of Colorado? Does it end at the Littleton town limits? Does it end at the streets surrounding the school and their homes? Where is it safe to say "'cause I didn't know them, could not have influenced them?" Not only do we have to deal in personal responsibility in this world, but we as a people have a responsibility to this world. Otherwise we shall be consumed by our own narcissism. Do I think they should be villified? Yes, absolutely. However, there is no black and white here. Yes, they were probably monsters, but they were still human.

---Peter

This is a very long post, and for that I apologize. But as I went back to try to edit it, I found it touched on too many points that needed to be made. It was originally posted to my distribution list on 4/26. Peg - you are not alone in your belief, Finder - you are gonna have a real sense of deja-vu here. Peter - the argument EVERYONE is to blame don't wash either - 'cause I didn't know them, could not have influenced them, and certainly my daughter of 23 months has not been around long enough to be a cause of anything. Otto... Otto, my heart goes out to you so powerfully it brings tears to my eyes. You have known both the victims and the perpetrators. You were able to touch and know the human side of those we only know as faces and names. I strongly suggest you do not read what is to follow, because the pain will be great.
-----------
My heart is very heavy.

I have waited for a time since the tragedy to gain some perspective, to somehow, make sense of the incomprehensible.

I cannot make any sense of it.

The thoughts and actions of the two young monsters who perpetrated this atrocity are foreign to me, and likely always will be. (I have made it a point not to name these monsters in print. I will not contribute to their notoriety even in this slight fashion. They are monsters, and as individuals, should be confined to the dustbins of historic anonymity.)

I will, however, name each of the victims, and hope that we can remember, even if only in a remote way, that these people lived, breathed, loved and were loved, and now they are gone from us: Cassie Bernall, Steven Robert Curnow, Corey Depooter, Kelly Fleming, Matt Kechter, Daniel Mauser, Danny Rohrbough, Dave Sanders, Rachel Scott, Isaiah Shoels, John Tomlin, Lauren Townsend, Kyle Velasquez.

They are gone from us now, and we must remember. Because by forgetting them, we are turning away from ourselves.

------------

As I said before, I have tried to make sense of this, to somehow put this into some kind of order, where I could say... because of this and this, these things happened.

I cannot.

It is ultimately, not about our society, our culture, our hatred, our anger, or our loss. It is about two monsters who could find no more creative a way to express themselves than the wholesale slaughter of their peers.

Someone once said: "The most dangerous creatures on the planet are adolescent males." I cannot agree more. There are numerous examples in nature of this statement. Young rogue elephants... "Gangs" of adolescent monkeys terrorizing their bands, until chased off by the Alpha male... Lions... Humans. There is something about an adolescent male that needs serious civilizing...

The country and the media are trying to point a finger at somebody or something, just so they can say: "Hey, don't worry, we fixed it."

It ain't gonna happen.

No matter how we try to mould and shape our children, there will always be that very small percentage that will just snap. There is no predicting it, controlling it, or dismissing it. It is a force of Human Nature, and all we can do when it passes through our lives is remember...

They have said there are some 50 million school age kids in America today. If we add up all the ones who have ever committed serious violence against their peers and teachers, add in the bullies, jerks and general morons.... We are still left with the fact that an overwhelming majority of kids are just that - kids. With pimples, prom night jitters, and normal kid-type hopes.

It's not about guns, or bombs or shoot-'em-up games, or bullies, or negligent parents, or movies with violent scenes... It's not about a society that has gone crazy.

That isn't to say that those who promulgate ideas and images should have no responsibility in what they project, but they are not responsible for a monster pulling a trigger, or lighting a bomb. Monsters are monsters.

Do I have an answer to this? I'm afraid I don't. But I know for certain that the news media doesn't either. They are seeking to demonize something or someone. Each picks a different angle, picks a different "expert", and each points to a different aspect of our society.

It's the guns. (No, it's not. Guns are inert peices of metal that do nothing without a human mind behind it.)

It's the games. (I've played Doom. I've played D&D. [Despite recently scoring a dismal 61.82% on an online "sanity test", I haven't started shooting people yet.])

It's the media. (While I have had serious misgivings about the overwhelming saturation of violence without consequence, the Terminator movies have not made me want to look up someone in a phone book and blow away everyone with the same name methodically.)

It's the parents. (I subscribed to this one for a while too, but in the end it is no more realistic than the others.)

It's the water. (We've heard it before - and it still don't wash.)

The devil.

Space aliens.

Magnetic field lines.

In the end, all of these are a continuation of our cultural belief that somehow individuals are not responsible for their actions. That we are puppets to forces beyond our individual control. That we are helpless in the face of overwhelming societal degredation.

We are none of those things.

If you're religious, you subscribe to the theory of free will.

If you're not, you have to realize that securing a gun, loading a gun, aiming a gun, firing a gun all require a long series of physical actions that are so easily broken by a single mistep. One has to want to do such a thing. It doesn't just happen. A human mind must be in control. Not a book, movie, game, negligent parent or bully. A mind. A warped, distorted, monsterous mind, but a mind none the less.

Two monsters are the reason there are so many dead, and I hate to break it to ya.... There are more monsters out there...

----------

I always end my column with an amusing, silly phrase, except this time, this is what I used...

I have no funny or pithy statement to put here today - Instead I dedicate this column to my best friend, who was taken from us by monsters just a few days shy of seven years ago. Joseph Lino Cohen. Joe. May we always remember...

Finder - I agree with most of what you said, but I think that you left out an equally important reason why people seek blame in a situation like that - how to be certain that it doesn't happen again. How to be certain that it doesn't happen to our friends and family. In that sense, I think that the search for why is not only valid, but vital.

Yes, I do agree that the shooters are ultimately responsible. On the other hand, in the final analysis, these were not fully functioning adults. If Columbine had been the only place where this had happened, the need for why wouldn't be quite so voracious, but it isn't. I think that in all good conscience, we have to know why these things are happening when they were not before.

Otto: You have my full sympathy and support. I have an uncle whom I love. His son and I are friends, as much as cousins, and things that he has been telling me about his father are horrifying. It is very difficult to reconcile my uncle whom I love with the man who beat on my friend for years. I don't know that such reconciliations are ever completely successful.

Well, off to the bus. A weekend away from this place.

Peter - I think we also need to consider one of the greater aspects of human nature which I think is another primary cause of the blame game: the need for closure. Psychologically, people require an definitive ending. Be it mundane - tuning in next week to see what happens to our intrepid hero - or something of the magnitude of the judicial train wreck that was the Simpson murder trial, or even something at the personal level, like searching for her reasons for standing you up and not returning your calls, we all need a chapter stop and a back cover.

I've never subscribed to the belief that not knowing is better. In fact, I know very few people who go through life believing that. I need an answer. We're inquisitive - even nosy - because we want the world to make sense, especially when the situation defies all the laws of reason we've set up for our individual little worlds. In the case of Columbine, as in many others, we will never, ever have the real answer to the most important question: why? Surrogate reasons abound - it was the media, it was lax gun laws, it was inattentive parents, it was the negative social climate, it was the devil, whatever - but people seek these avenues in a vain attempt to answer the "why" in a situation where no real understanding can ever be reached.

We can hold up all the straw men and point; but all they are in the end are suspicions and extrapolations, shaped by our personal opinions. For those sorry individuals who fly banners around tragedy the way shysters chase the rescue squad, the finger pointing rides the night with the political agenda. But sadly, the only real, meaningful, non-guesswork answer, the only explanation that could have brought some comprehension to an incomprehensible act, and perhaps some closure to people who need that closure in order to begin healing, was lost at Columbine.

Peg --

I might agree with what you have to say, but I'm having a hard time looking at it. Y'see, Dylan and Eric are friends of mine, and I'm kind of stuck in this grey limbo between who I know and what they've done. I can't forgive them, because I don't even know how to be angry at them yet. Maybe your little spiel is what I need to hear more of, to remind me where things are . . . but I still don't want to hear it.

Peg,

You're not gonna get any hate mail from me on that point. I agree with you one-hundred and twenty percent. The two shooters do bear the responsibility for their actions. And I think, on some level anyways, most people realize this. However, when it comes to laying blame, most people are hesitant to point fingers at the them. It has a little to do with not speaking ill of the dead but mainly I think it has to do with people's sense of justice. People, I think, need something tangible to direct their fears and their angers toward or else they face the unthinkable possibility of having to actually look inward for the answer. Since the shooters died (thus blaming them becomes something like kicking a dead horse and leaves a bitter taste of justice), and since we as a society don't want to look within ourselves, we look for scapegoats. We can punish the media. We can punish the parents. We can even punish the gun manufacturers. We cannot punish them, and we will not punish ourselves.

Things, as Yeats put it, fall apart, and this is no exception. The idea of who to blame is nice and all, and it is my contention that EVERYONE is in someway to blame for this mess. However, blame really should not be the issue here. Blame is the last rung on the ladder of productivity; it's nice and all to have it there, but I'd rather just skip it all the same. The real question here is "what are we going to do about it?" Except, because we aren't willing to look within ourselves for that answer, we turn toward blame and act on reflex. "Obviously they were influenced by something they saw/read/heard. So let us restrict access to such materials. An empty mind is a healthy mind -- unfettered by the harsher things in life such as thinking and responsibility." And you know what's scary? It is the responsibility that people are most frightened of. People say "I don't want to take care of my kids/home/self. I want someone/government/society to do it for me, but I don't want to be told HOW to do it. Just do it and don't bother me."

Now of course, I'm generalizing about the gestalt beast known as society. If you don't believe such a creature exists, you only need look at Germany in the thirties. There are people in this world who are willing to accept responsibility and take care of themselves and the people and things under their charge. But as a whole, taken to a level of probability, society does not want to lay blame where it needs to be laid. It is the fault of the two shooters and it is the fault of the world which failed to catch them in time. But that leaves us where we started. The question is, what do we do about it? What reasonable courses of action can we take to ensure that this never happens again? And what do we define as reasonable, because, if anything, the responses thusly have been anything but reasonable.

---Peter (burying my soapbox so I can grow a soapbox tree)

I have a comment on the Columbine high school killings. It's a fairly controversial comment (or at least it seems so to me). I'm not saying this to inflame people or to get a rise or start an argument, though I would like to here (civil) comments.

There's been something nagging me for a while about this situation, couldn't put my finger on it, and it only came clear recently. I'd been reading different view points on the "who's to blame" issue, ranging from parents to guns to entertainment to news media to everyone. But then I re-read Peter's webderland story, and it reminded of the thread we were discussing about personal responsibility.

It's occured to me that I've not heard anyone admit that the two students who did the killing have any responsibility for their actions. We've all been asking, "how could this happen", "why would they do this" and such, looking for blame, as if these two guys had no idea of what the difference was between right and wrong. So much of the discussion of this subject seems to me (and my perspective is only that, my perspective) to want to excuse them of their responsibility for their actions. We talk about the terrible tragedy as a whole.

These young men may have watch violent TV, played violent games, felt ostracized, and undergone so many other trials and tribulations. But they weren't little kids. They were almost legal adults, and certainly mentally mature enough to make judgements. They weren't isolated from modern western culture. I've not gotten the impression that they were ignored completely by their parents, or raised in alternate moral makeup or satanist cult. Barring some strange pyschological makeup, they knew it was wrong to kill people. They were unhappy, they were pressured, they felt no hope. In the end though, they (likely) knew it was wrong, and they did it anyway. They may have thought it was cool, or that they were emulating a person or character they admired. But I personally have a hard time believing that either of these two students could have been warped so badly as to not know it was wrong.

So what does this say? I mean, if they had survived, they would've gone to trial. Many cases with people of that age, they even get tried as adults. But because they died, because they were troubled, no one seems to want to admit that they still made that chose. You know, I'm sorry they had it so rough, I know they had an extremely trying high school existence. But in the end it's no excuse to kill people. Isn't that what personal repsonsibility is about?

I don't know, maybe I'm just insensitive or twisted, maybe I missed something along the way. I'm certainly not trying to dismiss the grief or tragic nature of the incident. I just don't think we can ignore the this fact of their choice.

The dissendent Peg

Al - Fallout? Y mn smthng lk ths? Wht's wrng wth ths? Y cn rd ths, cn't y? Wht's sm vwls btwn frnds? :) But seriously, I didn't claim it was a perfect system, or even a desirable one. Given my druthers, all I ask is thick book and a light to read it by. And in the mere days since that post, DIVX is officially dead, so what do I know?

The demise of the neighborhood has also been affected by the extreme other end of the pendulum: the conscious changing of jobs. Company loyalty is hard to find these days; a lot of people take looking out for their best interests seriously, and switching jobs for better pay or benefits happens every day. Residency in the same place is a casualty of that. M ore people move more often - and a lot farther - for business than they did thirty years ago. I'm guilty of eight moves in eight years, the majority for work reasons. I've hardly known any of my neighbors (though in one case that was fine - I lived in the town house two doors up from Harold J Nicholson, the CIA agent they popped for espionage back in November 1996 - and no, he didn't leave any packages or undeveloped film with me), between the pace of work and the constant motion. I haven't started living out of boxes yet, though, so I must harbor some hope of staying in one place...(sniffle)...someday.

Returning... after having recovered to some degree from the shame of misspelling my ownname. (see previous post)

Peter - I agree completely. Corporate downsizing is a major factor in the disintegration of neighbourhoods and ultimately the community as a whole. I think the sense of community that I felt as a child/teenager(we're going back a bit here...(I betcha I'm
at least as old as Sue.) was very much due to the fact that virtually everyone who was employed was planning on staying where they were until retirement. A layoff was a short term temporary thing at worst and corporate growth was the norm.
This sense of long term security and "taking root" so to speak resulted in neighbourhoods that were almost like an extended family.
On the downside this sense of security helped promote the complacency and conservatism that left us open to some pretty stiff off-shore competition later on.
What's all this got to do with the internet? Not a thing. The net is just another tool for communication and most of the people I know still consider it to be just a novelty. Maybe when the net has the same level of market penetration that the telephone has we'll be able to assess it's impact more accurately.

Finder - Optical discs?......DIVX?........... ohmigod yer talkin' about CD's!! We'll all go blind! They'll use digital compression, all the vowels will be missing! Sorry about that but I managed to stay serious for almost five minutes reminiscing about neighbours & stuff..............somebody had to get the fallout.

I'm out of lurkdom again to mention that as I was cruising Amazon.com auction I found a whole page of HE stuff including two signed copies of Vic and Blood and one of Paingod. I haven't purchased anything through the auction but I was surprised and pleased to see all the stuff that was available. Anna

Joe- The only thing I read was an article on the net (it might have been the Entertainment Mag. site-I forget now) in which HE talked about Torme writing westerns in the 50s under a pseudonym and HE described him as a mensch. At least, that's what the article stated.

Anyone read (or have a copy) of HE's eulogy of Mel Tormay? (forgive my spellin').

Whoa!! Did I ever miss the boat! I thought Gary was giving us a synopsis of a rant he heard on NPR - not that it was HIS personal opinion.. hee hee

Well, I as offended by that perspective as I obviously was, I sure didn't lay it at your doortstep Gary, or hold it against you - because I had no idea it was your opinion. In fact, I am still not sure the perspective of the origonal rant is *your* headspace - doesn't sound like it from your subsequent post.. *shrug*

And don't comparing yourself to Narriman, either. There is a BIG difference between mispeaking in a moment of emotion, and deliberately offending people to bait them into a "discussion" which will "prove" your "superiority". So don't be a stranger just because you stepped in a gooey steaming mess right of the bat.. Wipe your feet on the doormat, and come on in. :-)

Peter - have to agree with you. I've been watching our society lose it's 'social glue' for a loooong time now. Definitions of "community" have radically changed since I was a kid *mmbbl* years ago.. The only people still using my old-fashioned concept of neighborhood are the Real Estate Broker's PR men in sales brochures.. *sigh*

Finder - I agree with what you said, too. Change IS inevitable, always has been.

I really don't see how the Net can fully supplant life experience. If nothing else, folks have to go do that work thing, mingling with other people, doing stuff important enough to get paid for it, and learning the whatnot to do it, to get the $$ to afford Net access.. To be honest, when I see something totally *cool* on the Net, my first urge is to rush out and get My Own - not click on the Refresh button... Besides, my butt gets numb if I sit at the puter too long.. ;-)

Tonight, Tuesday June 15, Harlan Ellison will be on the syndicated Jerry Klein radio talk show! If you get Jerry in your area, tune in starting at 11pm and talk to Harlan Ellison!

I'm gonna chime in here. While the net has certainly been the whipping boy of blame (right there next to entertainment media) I don't see it as being the destruction of neighborliness. Heck. I watched the idea of neighborhoods come to an end as I grew up. I've lived on the same block since I was five months old. When I was a child, there was such a thing as getting to know the neighbors, having barbeques, pulling together. However, as time moved on and people moved away, the emphasis turned more toward minding your own business, and keeping your place on the up and up. People have changed in the last twenty years. Blame it on the net. Blame it on working two jobs. Blame it on Rio... er, I mean, blame it on plain ol' fashion human narcissism. The fact of the matter is, people have changed. And this started long before people even knew what the internet was.

Subsequently, we turn toward the internet to gain a broader sense of community that is lacking in the real world. It's not that we are too lazy to go and meet with our neighbors, it's just that, neighbors have become an unstable concept. Here today and gone tomorrow. If you want to blame anything, blame the downsizing trends of the early nineties which left people jobless and homeless. Whereas twenty to thirty years ago, you'd have life long neighbors, today you have people who are forced to change their abode more often than their underwear. So the net, in its way, may even be preserving that sense of community which has fallen apart of its own accord, without any help from cyberspace.

---Peter(I've made clearer arguments in the past, but hey, I'm tired.)

Gary- In one of the recent F&SF issues there is a story by Paul McAuley (if memory serves) that you may find interesting. It's set in the not too distant future, streets are barren, and everyone works/entertains/etc. out of their home on the net. (I believe it's the issue with the woman standing on a row boat)

***kicks soapbox into street and hops up***

Sorry. This will take a minute. But I don't buy that the net is responsible for societal trends that have been occurring for decades. Before the advent of the world wide web, the spoiler was television; before television, it was radio, on and on, back to Alexander Graham Bell, who people thought was nuts - why would you use a box to call someone you could walk three blocks over to talk to? And Henry Ford - why would I want a horseless carriage? Buttercup can get me over that ridge in an hour. Electric lights? Anti-viral immunizations? Pasteurized milk? That's just crazy talk.

Meanwhile, over on Maple Street, there have been people who have kept their curtains closed and porch lights off for as long as they've had them. On the flip, there have always been people who have organized block parties, brought a dish to pass and gone caroling with the people from up the street. Anti-social behavior because of the net? Where was the net in my anti-social neighborhood back in '77? Oh, wait - AL GORE HADN'T INVENTED IT YET! How about considering the demographics? The layout of the neighborhood? Individual psychology and preferences for interaction? The differing socioeconomic and social realities of singles versus families? The old versus the young? Different races? Religions? Lifestyles?

I can get a good, inexpensive pair of blue jeans from this cool boutique I found on the net. Before that, I got them from a catalog the Gap sent me in the mail. Before that, I ordered them from the JC Penny catalog. Before that was Sears & Roebuck, my dad's preference, like his dad before him. Shopping from home has been around for a good century now, and as far as I can tell, neither Sears nor Roebuck was burned at the stake for destroying society - though there may have been some small town merchants who wish they had been. Of course, a lot more placed those catalog orders for the customer and had a whole new world of possibilities for their clientele and themselves.

I'll admit, I don't see latent elitism in Gary's post, nor specific disdain for all things Internet. What I see is a hypothesis that isn't supported by facts and is carelessly stated. But one point has some merit, even if presented with gyrations: technology shouldn't be allowed to fully supplant actual life experience.

Personally, I use the net a lot, and I love all of the things it brings me - but it's part of the entire suite of my life. I still write letters. I still go out of my way to visit the friends I communicate with on boards like this and via e-mail. I still grab my camera and see and capture the physical world around me. And I suspect from all I've read since I first poked my head up here, this is a savvy bunch of people who use the net as a tool, not a crutch. It's an outlet, it's a window on the world, a forum for ideas, even to share a recipe or two. Real friends are made, real conversations over important topics are held, and legitimate opinions are expressed. But the Internet is hardly the entire world of ANYONE who regularly reads these words.

It's a simple fact of social evolution - with all it allows and all it can do, the Internet is changing society, and will continue to do so. Some things we have had all our lives WILL be altered, but that's an experience as old as man. Some things we hold dear will be rendered obsolete, and will challenge us to move with the flow, or stride to our own drum. Some things we never imagined will come along, good and bad, and we'll need to adapt to them, their benefits and their consequences.

Much like growing older, getting downsized, wrecking the car or getting drunk and making an ass of yourself, there's no use crying about it. Pitching a fit and getting a lawyer rarely halt legitimate progress. And blaming the net for everything from road rage to the upswing in nose hemorrhoids is blatant Chicken Little-ism.

It's called Change. And a lot like sh*t, sometimes it just happens.

***douses soapbox in 93 Octane, lights match, roasts weenies over ensuing inferno***

By the by, anyone have any detail on the day to day schedule for the Heroes Convention in Charlotte this weekend? And is anyone headed that way? I might make the five hour junket if I know that I'll get to see what the Heroes Con website lovingly refers to as HE "holding court".

Points well taken. I got in a fine anger about something and shot off my mouth, forgetting a simple admonition to think before you type. Looking over my post I¹m seeing the assumptions I didn¹t realize it would convey, and the first thing I can say is, ouch.

No, I don¹t hate the Net, but I prefer other activities to it. I will keep that a personal preference. There certainly is merit on the Net, not the least of which is Webderland. Being somewhat new and part-time to the Net I¹ve apparently taken my cues from the wrong sources ­ former co-workers and cliché, largely.

Elitism. It hurt me to see it in my own post. I¹m one of the people working to make ends meet. I don¹t consider Œshopping¹ to be something inherently of substance; it¹s a luxury for when we can do anything more than penny-pinch. I ranted about how I personally care to go about spending anything extra, and that is another thing properly kept a personal preference.

The last thing I¹d want to do ­ yet I guess I have ­ is to pull a Namirran: walk onto a board full of personalities I respect and proceed to offend them all. I apologize. Not being able to wipe the slate clean and start over, I¹ll instead endeavor in the future to keep a more civil, and thoughtful, tongue in my head.

Barney: Thanks for that little piece of information about "All the Lies That are my Life". I wasn't aware that Harlan had written that story for the lit/crit crowd.

All: Does anyone know if a list-server has been set up on the web for the purpose of informing people of Mr. Ellison's rather sporadic public and televised appearances? I know that many of you receive your heads up for such things by sharing information on boards such as this, however, some of us just don't get a chance to search the web for news as much as we'd like to. Besides, wouldn't it be nice to receive an e-mail notification every time a major Harlan Ellison event was going to take place? I think so.

Well, Gary, no personal offense intended but what a load of B.S. you just spewed!

You don't like the Net. That's cool. No skin off my nose.

But because you like browsing more and the Net less, you've decided that the Net is therefore for superficial people, people who aren't as deep and as significant as you.

I say, live and let live. You do things your way, I'll do things mine. I'll always assume the best about you until I have reason to think otherwise. I expect the favor to be returned in kind.

-chris

Gary - That was an interesting rant. As I read it, I looked out the window at my deserted neighborhood. Nobody is here. Everyone old enough to work has gone to their job, all the young kids are at Day Care, and the rest of the kids are safely locked inside their houses so the "strangers" won't do terrible things to them. I can leave the comfort of my home any time... but where can I go to socialize? The only neighborhood activity during working hours is me checking on the kids at home for their parents - because we DO know our neighbors.. It wasn't TV or the internet that emptied out my neighborhood. It was money. And don't think I am morally indicting the working folks, either. They NEED two incomes just to scrape by. After being gone most of the day, and coming home to more work to maintain the household, they prefer to spend their limited "free" time in the comfort of their own home together as a family, enjoying what all that work was FOR.

So now we're supposed to go window shopping to socialize? And lament the decline of hands-on consumerism? How does shopping build neighborhoods - or family ties? Shopping is an experience with Subtance???? Someone has some screwy idea's about substance.. I'd RATHER chat on-line with a friend than shop. They are *real* people on the other end of that computer connection, yaknow.. And you can make real friends on-line.. People you go visit, just like they were "regular" people... Sheesh!!

I still wonder where that "value added if you work for it" thing came from.. Is that supposed to mean all the folks working their butts off to keep their heads above water DON'T appreciate what they work for?

What a Crock! How insultingly condescending, judgemental, and flawed.. Authentic hand-woven Nepalese rug?? Who buys those?? No one I know.. That whole perspective completely overlooks the realities for MOST people, *sniffing* into a lace hanky of priveleged lifestyle over the failure of "those less intelligent" to take advantage of leisure time activities and high quality goods - that NEVER WERE options for anyone but the priveleged - and illogicly blaming the Net and TV.

I can do without that sort of social elitism, thank you. To trivialize the REAL limits imposed by financial necessity on most people, and berate them for having to live withing those limits is pretty darn callous.

De-lurking again, I¹ve been away awhile, getting married, buying a condo, changing jobs big-time, and moreŠbut something on Morning Edition got me started today. And bear with me, it¹s about the Internet, and it¹s long.

I¹m afraid I didn¹t catch the name of the commentator, but he was decrying the banner cheers of how the world is getting smaller through the Net. That it¹s now "the global village." And he finds the Net wanting in quality of experience. Forgive me for paraphrasing; I don¹t mean to put words in his mouth, the gist of which wasn¹t there to begin with, but the rush of ordering a book at Amazon.com in nineteen seconds shouldn¹t overshadow the essentially empty quality of the experience. At his local used bookstore, the browsing is more like free association: a cookbook that interests you is shelved between a book on motorcycle maintenance and a Jane Austen. You pick up the Austen to see if this is the one they just did a film from, and behind it is the out-of-print poetry collection you¹ve been searching for for years. As opposed to the linear trinity of Amazon: title, author, subject.

He was tired of hearing how you can order an authentic hand-woven Nepalese rug on the Net, without ever leaving the comfort of your own home, when he hit the motherlode. "I WANT to leave the comfort of my own home." The EXPERIENCE of browsing is not to overlooked. Often it¹s the primary thing, secondary to the buying. Another person interviewed (regrettably, he was arguing against gun legislation, but this point was very valid) talked about his childhood, when, if he wanted something, he had to work to earn it. And then the object had added value because of what you put into it, to earn it.

"I WANT to leave the comfort of my own home." Is it any wonder that so many people don¹t know their neighbors, when there¹s the television in their own home? That we have a "global village" now, at the expense of the REAL village, because we¹ll talk on the Net rather than to the next door neighbor?

We¹re wrapped up in substitutes: NutraSweet, Olestra, FD&C #2, special sauceŠcrap with surface appeal (?) but no substance. I don¹t mind having a Big Mac in a blue moon, because I broil a flank steak more often (and that rarely). I don¹t mind a Net conversation, because I engage in real live ones more often. TV? Read. Surf? Take a walk.

The Internet is fine, like a beer or a card game, until it supersedes honest SUBSTANCE in our lives. I find there¹s a lot more value inherent in browsing than in clicking. But to so many Americans obsessed with surface appeal, the Net may be slow poison.

I thought Leonard Nimoy's comment on DeForest Kelley was beautiful: "He represented humanity and it fitted him well. He was a decent, loving, caring partner and will be deeply missed."

For those who haven't heard, DeForest Kelley, alias "Bones" McCoy died a couple days ago.

Peter - Shameless plug investigated; I enjoyed the essay - balanced and well-written. Kudos.

Al - if you go completely optical and eliminate the paper copy all together, you remove a number of stumbling blocks. I'm thinking a portable reader that accesses an optical disk (created using downloaded data by the bookstore clerk) that is specifically linked to the customer's hardware (which I'm told is a feature DIVX utilizes, associating the purchased DIVX with the owner's hardware, copy protection being a primary concern to all parties) in order to restrict copying or shared use; printing being prohibitive in cost. individuals probably won't be mass producing books at home from ther optical disks. Near as I can tell, the biggest hurdle isn't the technology, but creating the perception that an electronic book is a good thing. Me? Personally, I get great theraputic value from turning pages and rearranging my shelves - but when mass market paperbacks hit $9.99, I'm definitely exploring alternative resources...

Sue - Two words: Paradise Lost. And I'm not talking Milton, either...sounds like the Rain Man was right - K-Mart really does suck.

All - All this future of books discussion has birthed a new short story - 4300 words and going strong. Unfortunately, I don't have a web page set up where I can drop it when it's done, but perhaps I'll work something out by the time its done and run the submission course - after all, y'all helped shape the thinking that started me down the rabbit trail; I'd like to share it if it turns out readable.

RE:on-line books, check out pulpless.com. You can either download the book (some selections look quite interesting-Silverberg, Spinrad) or you can order a 1st ed. through amazon.

Al - now ya done it! Just _had_ to mention all those wonderful vinyl LP's of ours carefully stached, and lovingly tended for their unique character of sound.. *SOB*.. DANG!! Gonna go spit on K-Mart Headquarters in Troy, MI now.. I can't take any more losses like that..

Sue - No argument. As soon as it becomes profitable we will have books-on-demand. My point is that it isn't profitable right now. Actually the software to do the job exists now and obviously reliable data transmission systems are currently available.I just couldn't resist a quick jab at Microsoft. Probably because I wrestle with a Windows NT network all day at work.
The real problem is the digital to analog conversion(printer). If K-Mart is prepared to dump mega-bucks into acquiring / developing the sort of hardware that can do the job reliably, in a format and at a price that the public finds acceptable, then it's a done deal.
I just hope that the hardware isn't so expensive that the smaller retailers can't afford it. If that happens we're all liable to be buying our books at K-Mart.
I'm still trying to get over the demise of the vinyl record, don't take my books away too.

Al - I seem to remember being told in 1972 that computers in every home would not happen in my lifetime - it was a "Skiffy" delusion, like manned orbitting space stations.. Computers were too "fragile", requiring clean rooms and controled temperatures, they were HUGE and took up an entire room, and the cost of purchase and maintenance was beyond the reach of all but governments, universities, and large corporations.. I also remember being told at the same time that I should check out the "hot" new career field - key-punch operator - big bucks in high tech.. By 1982 I owned a home computer, and there were no keypunch operators. By 1992 there was a manned space station orbiting earth. The pace of technology hasn't slowed down - and the cost of computer technology continues to fall. If you think lack technology will prevent books-on-demand you are sadly mistaken. All it takes for the technology to arrive, is an application that generates $$ for the developer and end user - and someone else to try to horn in on the profits to drive the price down with competition. I would say that is guaranteed to happen now that Borders (backed by LOTS of K-Mart $) has announced it is a real market.

I am beginning to think that I must live in the only area on the planet where people working in bookstores can all read - and the vast majority do. Many of my best 'discoveries' in literature have come from reccomendations of bookstore employees - not to mention many hours of enjoyable conversation, and enlightment. There is the occasional boob, but not often enough to sour me on ALL chain bookstore employees. Maybe it's because none of our chain bookstores are in a Mall?

On the Ideal Bookstore thread - (warning - RANT coming) This is going to come as a shock to many of you, but we HAD a near perfect local bookstore for a long time. It grew from a small storefront with a single sofa, until it's final incarnation in the old downtown department store building when Hudson's moved out to the new Mall. Four glorious city-block large floors, and a basement.. *sigh* Old sofa's scattered about with lots of tables you could pile up your selections.. Regular customers brought in their own CD's to be played in the area they browsed.. No objections to food and drink in the non-shelf areas - in fact, they supplied the coffee for free. And the SELECTION! Entire rooms where others had a few shelves.. The Rare Book section in the basement had more to see than the University of Michigans's Museum just down the street.. One whole front window was just for local self-published authors.. Most of whom were published by local printers (Aardvark is one) that got their start through referals from the bookstore, and sold through the bookstore). The writers workshops they hosted were GRAND things, that really gave a boost to local talent (Loren Estleman, for one). Brand-name authors in every conceivable genre and country of origon were regularly scheduled for those workshops along with signings and readings (yes, they had a decent size auditorium in the basement as well), where I saw everyone from Liberation Theologist Hans Kung, to poet Maya Angelou... *sigh* It was Heaven..

Until they got into trouble with the local government over zoning and fire-hazards and whatnot - and K-Mart "rescued" them with that Hostile Take-Over thing.. And our Beloved Borders was completely gutted. Entire sections disappeared to make room for the computer, video, and CD stuff - the basement closed.. No more readings or Rare Books.. Free coffee, tables, and sofa's turned into a smarmy overpriced "cafe".. Muzak with ADS.. Borders is NOT what it used to be. I resent that all K-Mart kept was the name.. They should have used some other name to offend the rest of the country - or actually USED Borders as the model for the rest of their chain. (end RANT)

The rise and fall of Borders seems to come right back to the "progress" thread. It came as no surprise to me when K-Mart (aka Borders) announced the books-on-demand scheme. Their idea of progress is firmly tied to PROFIT, and NOT having those huge inventories "wasting" capital, and taking up space they have to maintain and pay taxes on is sound reasoning to them. They are 'automating' the book selling thing. If their pace seems slow, it is not due to the technology - it is due to the book-buying public not accepting it readily.

Gotta go - feel an urgent need to go spit on a K-Mart..

Al,

I agree on the current state of Books on Demand - the technology is still very new. On the other hand, improved properly, it could a godsend to solve the backlist problem for Science Fiction and Fantasy. Of course, you would have to deal with the copyright problems (would this mean that a back is never technically out of print, and so how (if ever) would the rights revert to the author?), but there is some potential for books that would only sell a copy or two a year. As for bookstore clerks operating these machines (and you're right on as to the complexity, as the books would be bound as trade paperbacks), I agree that your average employee would not be able to keep up with them (a disclaimer: I work for Barnes & Noble (alright, stop throwing the tomatoes - I know how many of you feel) and I've found that employees usefullness depends especially on the individual store manager; if the manager/owner sets a good example and cracks the whip (in a good way), the employees follow suit and step up their performance). That said, I think that there is potential for this technology for the *far* backlist of books. It will, however, need to be much cheaper and easier to use.

Hey everybody. Shameless personal plug here.

If anybody is interested, I've done a barebones webpage on my ISP server space (50 megs gone to waste). That is, if anybody wants to check it out. Right now, all I'm doing is using it to dump stories and essays that have nowhere else to go. I'm starting to become an old hat in the fiction/rejection game, but the idea of actually doing anything with my essays has become an intriguing and quite frankly, scary proposition. I have a new essay up there entitled "Buffy Made Me Do It" and have toyed with the notion of sending it out before realizing that I don't even know where I'd send it to. Anyhoo, the address is

http://www.netvista.net/~petero/

and realize that I'm only doing this because I trust the people on this board as being honest about their opinions. I doubt you'll be seeing too many stories hitting the webspace, but my essays need an audience, or else, why am I writing them?

Okay, end of shameless personal plug.

---Peter (still waiting by the mailbox for my rejection slips)

ALL: More recommendations -- forgot to mention in my last post, THE SUB: A Study in Witchcraft by Tom Disch (this is the fourth in his series of fantastic tales set in Minnesota -- the other three were THE BUSINESSMAN: A Tale Of Terror, THE M.D.: A Horror Story, and THE PRIEST: A Gothic Romance), and NEGATIVE SPACES by Dan Simmons (a collection of two essays/talks about writing and the state of genre fiction -- comes in a chapbook for $10). Also, just got a copy of 999 ed. by Al Sarrantino with stories by S. King, Joe Lansdale, Ed Bryant, David Morrell, William Peter Blatty, Joyce Carol Oates, Tom Monteleone, Tim Powers, Tom Disch, Neil Gaiman and a slew of others -- it's an anthology of original tales, and it's meant to be a kick in the pants for the genre -- like DARK FORCES back in the 80's. Looks good. For anyone who digs Lewis Shiner, he has a new novel out (October release) entitled SAY GOODBYE: THE LAURIE MOSS STORY, a fictional account of the music biz in L.A. (Shiner won the World Fantasy Award for GLIMPSES a few years ago, and just had a story published in F&SF called "Lizard Men of LA" -- he's a consistently good writer). Out here, DTS.

I've managed to resist the urge to post here for quite a while now but this "books on demand" thing is too much.
The main reason that the technology hasn't been put to use is that things(I refuse to call them books) produced in this manner would be substantially more expensive than a conventional book.
A laser printer capable of pumping out the volume of text required for book printing would be very expensive. Then you have the cost of the paper, toner and maintenance costs. Since you couldn.t afford any down-time you would actually
have to have more than one printer. You'd need one as a back-up (laser printers are about as reliable as photo-copiers.)
If you needed to serve more than one customer at a time you'd need a bank of printers madly whining away(they whine...irritating, irritating), spewing paper in all directions.
Here's the scary part. The end result of all this technology is a stack of letter sized paper, printed on one side about two inches thick. Try and stand that up on your book shelf. Sorry folks, no colour cover, we didn.t have the budget for a colour copier(s).
The technology to produce something that physically resembles a book(printed both sides of the paper, nice cover, capable of standing up on a shelf etc.) would cost like a pair of Ferrari's.( mmmm....Ferrari...now that's technology!)

I'm approaching babble mode so here's some points to ponder:

1. The software will be Microsoft & it will only run on alternate Tuesdays when the barometric pressure is between 29 & 30 inches of mercury.
2. The people operating the software will be the same bookstore clerks who can't even make change and couldn't read the product they sell even if they wanted to.(I know there are exceptions, this is a shot at the big chains....apologies to any literate bookstore clerks who read this)
3. The distribution network will be AOL.
4. "Books are still the best data storage, retrieval & distribution technology we have. Buy them, read them, cherish them........if you really want to get carried away dust them occasionally. They're going to be with us for a long time.

aw.

ps: I wrote this thing in Wordperfect & I'm going try to paste it onto the
board. Apologies in advance if I screw it up.

Time now cause trouble (he said, batting his big blues and lashing his tail). THE HIT LIST says The Tattered Cover gets a rating of [-] and The Stone Lion, in Ft. Collins, gets a [+2]. Of course, Dan Simmons frequents The Stone Lions, so maybe that explains the rating. Nah. It's a great store, and despite its physical size, caters to a wide audience. Until next time. . .

Maggie -- Living out here in Littleton, CO, I can assure you that the Tattered Cover is one of my favorite jaunts. If it weren't for the Tattered Cover bargain bin, I wouldn't have so much great stuff. In fact, they've added a fourth-floor cafe (very 'spensive, but a nice place to sit) and have a store in LoDo as well as Cherry Creek, which is just as marvelous as the first.

I'm so excited -- we're actually getting a computer. No longer will I have to rely on the public library or school to throw in my two cents here. (You have to understand that our family just moved into the late eighties about a year ago, when we got an answering machine and a CD player.) My dad -- a minister who still writes his sermons on, yes, a manual typewriter every week -- put in the order himself. I can't believe the package he ordered: "Dad, do you even know what a zip drive IS?" "No -- is it good? Or should I not have gotten it?" "Uh, no. It's pretty good."

To read more about Yuri Rasovsky go to:
WWW.irasoc.com/home.htm

Hi again! :-) I'm less distracted now, which means that I'm back to my usual mind like a rusted steel trap..

On the Perfect Bookstore Thread - I know it isn't a "bookstore", but I've always had a little daydream about the coolest, Ultimate BookFest.. If I could just OWN the Library of Congress - unlimited access.. *bliss* Then Barney could be envious of me.. ;-)

*WARNING - Looong Old Fogey Ramble Ahead*

I read about the books on-demand technology many years ago - as a spin-off application of the *high-tech* "just-in-time" parts supply practise addopted by Car Companies. Frankly, it was one of those things you know is going to happen, just because it's a 'bottom-line' maximizer. What is surprising, is that it taking so long for it to become reality, given that the technology has been there for so many years. I've watched the Libraries (Public and School) in these parts steadily shift limited budgets into technology, installing and expanding computer rooms and MultiMedia centers - freeing up the cash for individual investments in that technology by establishing "regional networks" for access to hadcover books (which means no one library has a full selection of books, each 'specializes' in a different category of books). It would seem the Libraries may be looking too far ahead, and not in the right direction. Reading books, writing, and even computer use are for the most part exclusive (in the sense that the person doing it doesn't interact with anything else while actively engaged in it) - and there is obviously tremendous resistance to making them a public, or group activity. I get the feeling that this technology trend in the Libraries is going to go the same way as the carels of the turn of the century (intended to keep in step with the outbreak of public education, provide a public place to read and write) - though on-demand book printing from data bases - both in book stores and Libraries - will most likely come to pass for finacial reasons.

I'm not exactly sure when the Industrial Revolution stopped, so there could be a *new* Technological Revolution (or are these more of those acededmic labels to make referencing easier?)..

When I was a child, I was fascinated with the stories my Grandpa told me about his childhood in the "Horse and Buggy" days. They seemed to be right out of a story book. I remember him telling me about when they first got electricity, telephones, cars.. I told him once how I wished I could have lived in a time when things changes like that, from Horse and Buggy to Man on the Moon.. And he told me, "It hasn't stopped. You'll see more change in half your lifetime than I've seen in all of mine." He was right, you know. The pace of change steadily increases, and we change right along with it, for the most part not even noticing unless some "breakthrough" is ballyhooed. It wasn't until I started telling my own childhood to young children, and saw on their faces the same amazement my Grandpa must have seen on mine those many years ago, that I realized how MUCH has changed since then. Not the least of which is that my life is only now half over according to life-expectancy data - though by Grandpa's definition of life-expectancy at that time, it would now be two thirds over - and had it not been for the changes in medical science, it would have ended long ago..

The very notion of outliving a fatal disease through medical treatment or by surviving long enough for a cure or maintenance protocol to be developed, is a VERY NEW thing - and little short of miraculous. We were shocked that Jim Henson died of the flu - but millions died of Infuenza in New York City alone during WWI - and that is still within living memory of many people. Odd how quickly we consign things to "history" now.. Must be all those changes we addapted to without noticing..

A final note - My grandparents era decried the Radio and Movies as the end of literacy and book reading. My parents did the same when television made it's appearance. My generation now does the same with the Net. Somehow, seeing how MANY people still read books, AND listen to the Radio, AND watch movies - I have a hard time believing this isn't just another add-on rather than a death-blow. True enough that you can't do these things simultaneously for the most part, and it "divides" the audience into smaller shares for each at any given time - but yaknow, there are a more people, and a smaller 'share' doesn't necessarily mean fewer people in total.

Yikes!! I did it again!!

*End Old Fogey Ramble - return to your normal life*

ALL- sorry it this was repeated, but latest Locus reports that HE, in collaboration with Yuri Rasovsky, will be doing a BEYOND 2000 one-hour radio show (26 installments) for the Hollywood Theater of the Ear. The shows will be broadcast over NRR and later made available on Dove Audio. HE is reportedly picking the stories and host the show. Rasovsky will direct and Dennis Etchison will do the adaptations. Broadcasting starts 12/99.

De-lurking for a moment to answer the question posed by Anna. The first book of HE's I read was No Doors, No Windows. I was completely sucked in by the intro to the Pyramid edition of that book. I have always loved his intros, essays, criticism and commentary. Forced to make a choice, I'd have to say that I enjoy HE's non-fiction more than his fiction, but my enjoyment of each are very close in degree. Favorite book - Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed. Back under my rock now.

*** Cypher*** If by "contemporary literary style" and "traditional" your talking about modern NY litcrit circle writing, the answer is yes. "All the Lies That Are My Life" was originally written for [if I'm wrong about this I know I'll hear about it in short order] Anteus magazine and it was written with that entire crowd in mind. The whole Barthelme / Cheever/ Oates / Boyle / post-modern/self referential / recursive / looking over the shoulder at the oh so clever now that we're this far down the road last half of the 20th century writer. Then the editor who had solicited it handed it back to him with a "This isn't quite our cup of tea, have a nice day". So instead it was shoe-horned into F&SF and done as a limited Underwood-Miller edition but those were not the markets for which it had been written. Well, maybe the limited, but not F&SF. When Harlan spoke of this in the early eighties he was pretty pissed off. He felt it was a genuine snub and that he had spent quite a lot of time on a market that only paid in literary cache, only to be denied that as well. On the other hand, Norman Mailer did give him his PEN award and "The Man Who Rowed Christopher Columbus Ashore" faired well so vindication of a kind was had.
If our man in Sherman Oaks is reading this and I have misremembered that conversation in the hotel room of the Creation Con [?] I'm sure he will tell me. If you strain your ears you can probably hear the sound of missile silos opening...

A curiosity: Has Harlan Ellison ever written a story in a conventional literary style, perhaps something akin to a style exhibited by one of the many traditional writers he claims as artistic influences, Joyce and other incantatory writers excluded? I find it intriguing that Harlan's writing isn't more stilted, or rigid--in a forced, mannered kind of way--because his personal literary icons, for the most part, seem to be from that "old" literary school of thought. (I may be misinformed here.)

At any rate, it interests me that he continues to produce some rather innovative 'modern' language in his stories, notwithstanding his obvious respect of 'classic' literature. I'm just curious as to whether he's ever tried his hand at something more traditional. This may be completely against his personal aesthetic (I suspect it is), but I thought I'd ask anyway. Anyone?

To grab the coat tails of Jim Hess, here are the e-mail addresses for The Charlie Rose Show:
www.pbs.org/charlierose/feedback.html
charlierose@pbs.org

ALL: here's my recent and recommeded reads (for anyone who's interested): HAVANA BAY by Martin Cruz Smith, DARKNESS PEERING by Alice Blanchard (great mystery/thriller debut, and parts of the action give Thomas Harris a run for his money), THE GIRL'S GUIDE TO HUNTING AND FISHING by Melissa Bank (a funny bunch of stories), FAR HORIZONS (terrific anthology; great primer for neophytes), MR. X by Peter Straub (need I say more?), BOGAMBO SNUFF BOX by Kurt Vonnegut (his last collection of short stories), CRYPTONOMICON by Neal Stephenson, SHELL GAME by Carol O'Connell (she's a dynamite mystery writer, and Mallory is my favorite sociopath-cum-hero), and HEARTS IN ATLANTIS by S. King (a collection of novellas that is every bit as good as those in DIFFERENT SEASONS). (Also, for his fans, John Irving has a nonfiction book coming out in October -- MY MOVIE BUSINESS: A MEMOIR, which will detail his 13 year effort to see his screenplay of THE CIDER HOUSE RULES to fruition -- the movie comes out the same month -- and perhaps talk about his other efforts, going back all the way to 1970, when he was hired to script his first novel for the Silver Screen). That's all for now. Out here, DTS

Quick comment (which should NOT be cause for flames): I was watching CHARLIE ROSE the other night (he had the much under-used and overlooked Mike Myers on) and it occurred to me Harlan Ellison has not appeared in this particular venue. Why not? It strikes me as perfect for him. (Maybe Rose is 'fraid of Unca Harlan? Whatsay we ring da man's bell and get ol' HE on there? Just a thought. Until next time. . .

You're rig - HE's introductions are reason enough to buy and read many of his books. It's hard for me to figure out what part of DV and A,DV is better: the great stories by the great writers or HE's intros to the stories.

I gather that the incredible demand for HE's intros created a lot of difficulty for him in editing those volumes. HE was doing a little more work than your average editor.

In fact, that brings up another question. Which HE do you like better? The fiction writer or the essayist/columnist? Yeah, I know it's a dumb question - why pick one when it's all part of the body of work of the same writer?

-chris

I just got my copy of Slippage (from Amazon.com by the way) and read the introduction last night. You know, I hardly ever read any other author's introductions but I always read HE's. It seems like he's talking to me. The point (for those of you who haven't read it yet) is that you should Pay Attention to what you're doing with your life because we are NOT immortal. I just had surgery on both of my knees in January and I'm having to come to grips with the fact that I cannot do things that I used to do anymore and it sucks!!!! Anyway, it's just a small rant but I'm eager to read the stories now.

Finder, good luck on your date (though, all things being equal, and me being a suspicious SOB, I tend to be leery about such things. Luck all the same though. If it works, it works.)

Onto the digital revolution. I think the thing we are going to be battling most in this new war are the conflicting technologists and luddites. The problem stems from the fact that a majority of the vocal minority who are granted special access to the airwaves and print media are either staunch defenders of technology, "All technology is a boon for mankind," or avid luddites who think that technology will only serve to turn us into decadent slaves to our own narcissism. As with most arguments, the truth to this matter lies somewhere in the middle. Yes, much of the technological advances we have made, and are making will do much for the benefit for mankind. I can see a possible future where we have turned AIDS into hay fever, reversed the greenhouse effect, and have kept Dan Quayle from ever setting foot in the white house again. However, each advance in technology must be weighed again and again for both its positive and negative effects. What if we patched up the hole in the ozone, only to find ourselves cooked because, while it not only let radiation in, it was also letting radiation out? (let us not forget, that the ozone was a relatively new discovery, hole and all.) No, the important thing here is to approach ever technology with a bit of healthy skepticism, and not embrace anything whole heartedly until it has proved itself as a benefit.

I can understand why people take on reactionary stances on both sides of technology. They are reacting against each other. One side says "great," the other says "not so great." I don't know where the bickering started, and I don't care. The only thing I care about is that people set aside their reactionism to see the forest for the trees. We are going to have both goods and evils thrown out at us in this new age of technology, and the thing for us to do is judge each one individually, without generalization, and without fear of the unknown. We take each new discovery and we determine if it is right for us. If not, we chuck it. That simple.

Okay, I'll stop ranting here.

---Peter

I haven't yet figured out just what the Net is: it's either the equivalt of the development of trans-continental railroads (at the low end) or it is a new Industrial Revolution (at the high end.)

The Net has dramatically changed the business world in just a few years. I remember just in early 1998, people were questioning whether the Net could successfully be used for major corporations to conduct business as their main model or if it was just going to be an adjunct to the main revenue stream like mail order catalogues.

Now, Andy Grove of Intel says "Go online or die." Major corporations like Dell and Cisco and Intel conduct from 1/4 to 1/2 of their business online and plan to do more.

And it happened in the blink of an eye. I find the anti-Amazon-as-a-big-corporation sentiment fascinating since this company only went public a couple years ago with less than $10 million in revenues - a couple years later and they're going to do well over $1 billion in revenues this year. $2 billion next year. Holy crow!

That means that remarkable opportunities exist. It also means some people and some businesses will be hurt. Change is good and change is bad. But I do believe the net (pardon the pun) result will be a major advance for much of the industrialized world (sadly, I think the 3rd world gets left even further behind - I don't think Internet access is at the top of their priority list.)


Finder, good luck with the Net blind date. Make sure she doesn't have an unusually prominent Adam's apple. :)

-chris, who got engaged to an online love once, long ago

Maggie - I can buy that we're in the midst of another industrial revolution; even in its relative infancy, digital technology has allowed as many advances - both practical and cultural - as the application of electricity and the combustion engine before it. I can take John Coltrane's performance of "Lush Life" anywhere with me in perfect, clear sound - a relative impossibility twenty years ago. I've got a blind date tonight for the Chris Isaak concert at Wolf Trap with a girl I met on the net; a very cool thing, because I don't meet people easily, I don't do the bar scene, and my self-expression in writing is a much better intro to me than my fumbling for words in that first chance meeting. Sure, it's got its flaws. Systems crash, hackers have their way with mainframes. The same hurdles in different forms have existed throughout time. There will always be flaws, be they "This URL is not found" or "All circuits are busy" or "Bridge out, follow detour signs".

I guess each of us has our measures of comfort and familiarity, and what's passed over by time is a crapshoot. Many of my loves are only being fueled by the new technology. I'll have to deal personally with the ones that this technology significantly alters. Will the digital age supplant the traditional published book with a printout made for me on the spot? Perhaps, and probably within my lifetime. It's a business move that I'm sure is attractive to publishers. And if it makes reading cost-effective again, is it such a bad thing? I'd miss the feel of the hard covers, but if I could then afford five books where I previously could have only one - and all five are books that weren't readily available before - would this not be a good thing?

I dunno. Much as the world isn't going to end on January 1st of this year, this revolution isn't going away. But (and Maggie, you timed your post ironically), to give it all a little perspective, Anne Sheafe Miller passed away Monday at age 90. In 1942, in her early 30s, she was near death with a fever spiking near 107 degrees. Her doctors tried the experimental drug penicillin on her - and she became the first person saved by that little drug with the moldy history that science had openly scoffed at in its earliest stages.

All of which is my way of saying the hardest thing about embracing a period of vast technological change is surrendering our long-held beliefs. We can shape it by lending our informed opinions to the mix as it grows and shifts and changes. The best we can do is embrace the future with an open mind, use our imaginations to brainstorm the possible new directions and the fixes to the existing problems, and put aside, however lovingly, the outmoded notions. No one said progress was easy.

Peter,

Amen to your beef about folks treating bookstores like libraries.
It really makes my sphincter pucker.

ALL: The following is an excerpt from author Lawrence Block's e-mail newsletter:
"Hope you like it. . . .My second anthology is an even greater source of pride. It's called Master's Choice, and each of the participating authors has picked two stories---a favorite that they've written, and a favorite that they've read. The lineup includes Stephen King, Joyce Carol Oates, Tony Hillerman, Peter Lovesey, Harlan Ellison, and others equally outstanding, and the book worked out so well that it's to be the first of a series. Berkley will publish it in November, with Volume Two to follow in late 2000."

Just a quickie to wish all those with manuscripts pending a short turn-around, and the "s" to make pending into spending the delightful paycheck..

Hubby had his Gall Bladder surgety today, and was bright-eyed, as he shuffled around saying "Ouchy" when last seen. Which was as they KICKED ME OUT of the hospital!! - something about letting him get some sleep.. SHEESH!!! *I* didn't mind sleeping on the floor under his bed..

Will post more when I am less 'distracted'.. :-)

FYI- Crusade premieres tonight on TNT (the B5 spinoff) at 10 p (est).

should read: " I'm currently browsing ..."

With all this talk about books, just wonderin' what everyone's current read is. I've currently browing "Needle" by Clement; "The Crook Factory", by Simmons (Great, but slightly slow read due to his richness in detail- well researched and recommended); a short story collection by Connie Willis (I never realized how funny some of her stories are, gives Terry Bisson a run for the money-especially liked the stories about THE woman's liberation issue and the science convention at the Hollywood hotel); and I just picked up the latest Bruce Sterling short story collection, however, I haven't dug into it yet (it's in paperback).

I can actually say that I've met bookstores I haven't liked. One of the greatest offenders is a particularly nasty chain called... Waldenbooks. Every waldenbook I've been to has been dreadfully disorganized, horribly understocked of anything worth reading, and staffed by teenagers who think this whole book thing is a rather "nifty" idea. Now, I apologize to anyone who works at one, but I really cannot abide a store whose books look like they were shelved by a five-year-old on speed.

As for the perfect bookstore? I'd say it would probably be the size of a nobbly barnes, filled with books both current and obscure. The staff would be knowledgable (staff members who do not take advantage of their staff discount are subject to immediate investigation. If said staff member does not read more than four books a month, he/she is to be terminated.) and would enjoy their work. I like the idea of an open mike night, plus the jazz would also be a nice touch, but under no circumstances would there be anyplace for people to sit down and just READ. There is something rather, I don't know, disturbing about letting people treat a bookstore like a library. Or, maybe, there can be a lounge area, but in order to enter it, patrons must first pay for their selections. I know that's really not too friendly, but honestly, books are meant to be purchased at bookstores, it is the natural order of things.

Oh yeah, it would invite writers for both readings and signings. Any writer with a book out is welcome to schedule either or both.

---Peter (patiently standing by the mailbox, waiting for returned manuscripts)

Peggy - most perfect bookstore? Well, I've got to admit that Finder's sounds good. Then again, I just can't really think of a bookstore I met that I didn't like. . .I wouldn't have shelves that are taller than about 6' or so, and I think that Finder's store is too small. When I lived in Colorado, there was a bookstore in Cherry Creek called The Tattered Cover (still gets my nod for best bookstore name). It impressed me so much that I can still remember the wonder and adoration I felt when I walked in. It was three big floors, with a little over half of one floor taken up with remainders - I got the most beautiful edition of Grimm's Fairy Tales - leather bound, beautifully tooled and painted, gold edges and end papers and everything - for 10$. I had ten bucks to my name and spent it all on the book which I foolishly gave to one of my sisters. Foolishly, because she's never even read it. I digress - big surprise there.

I've been reading a book called Intellectual Capital (author's name escapes me at the moment). I'm not that far in to it, but he has said one thing that impressed me. Maybe I'm just really out of step here (wouldn't be the first time!), but he keeps referring to the changes we are living through as similar in breadth and scope to the Industrial Revolution. Flabbergasts me because it seems so obvious, and yet I never really thought of it that way. Maybe everybody else already grokked this, but the idea of it has given me a whole new perspective on the technology issues that we have been discussing. For instance, there was a lot of doom saying about the demise of civilization during the Industrial Revolution, and, while some valuable things were lost, I personally think that more was gained.

So, here's the thing - this group of people is, by definition, a group of people interested in speculating - speculating about the future, about the human heart, whatever you call it, we read that kind of literature. As that kind of group of people, trying to take the long view instead of the harrumphing we are all so fond of, what can we do (rather like what could they have done during the Industrial Revolution) - and this is best case scenario here - to shape this revolution so that we give up as little of the good things as possible?

Boy, please forgive me if this sounds too convoluted. I think that my job is imploding brain cells in my head. . .

Of course, there are some real treasures to be found by searching the used book dealers on line - this is an actual listing off of ABE (I kid you not):

"10. Various The Illustrated Harlan Ellison n.p. Baronet 1978. g+/-. illustrated; includes 3-D glasses The Forest Lake
Club began in the summer of 1899 and held its first tournament on Labor Day, September 4, 1899 on its 8 hole course.
Included i the illustrations are drawings of the golf course in 1899, 1915, and 1932 showing the various changes made over
time eventually laying out an almost completely neew 9-hole course. Binding is sb. Book# 042065 US$30.00 Please contact
Baldwin's Book Barn for more information about purchasing this book."

What's funny is that in all his biographies on all his dust jackets, I don't ever recall Harlan mentioning his multi-year redesign of the Forest Lake golf club. Of course, on the flip side, I wonder if some poor duffer out there is bursting a blood vessel trying to figure out who Steranko is, just which US Open he won, and why someone named the Ticktockman would care...

MAGGIE & KEVIN: Haven't caught the article about "books on demand," but in an interview I conducted with Joe Haldeman (for ("Bloomsbury Reveiw") back in '94, he mentioned just that sort of thing. For new books, even. Seems it would be a way for Publishers to save money (shipping thousands of books that may or may not sell, and then eating profits in "returns"). As John Prine once wrote, "We are living in the future, I'll tell you how I know, I read it in the papers, fifteen years ago." Out here, DTS.

I won't hold my breath waiting for the reprint, DTS. Does anyone know if 'Sarsparilla Alphabet' is available?

All - thanks for the well-wishes. Previously-mentioned tale was posted this morning. I¹ll let you know what transpires...

Maggie - Books on demand? Oy. The milk curdles just thinking about it, in part for the scenario Kevin paints (because you know it¹s going to work that way) and partly because while it sounds like a potential godsend for people searching for out of print titles (in the best-case scenario), it could be a disaster for authors and publishing in general. Inevitably, it will contribute to books leaving print that much faster (relegating small audience authors to an electronic quasi mid-list hell), and ultimately some bean counter in a cubicle in midtown Manhattan will realize THAT much more profit could be squeezed from readers if new books are released that way. And I won¹t even get into the whole hacker angle, because let¹s face it: the opportunity to drop pornographic passages into ³Huckleberry Finn² will seem like a lark to a fleet-of-finger kid who¹s computer saavy and bored some Saturday night. I may have to take up book binding as a hobby just so I know a trade that will be worth something in another twenty years...

Peg - My ideal bookstore? Hmm. Without going too far into detail, extensive quality new books with priority ordering for out-of-stock items on the first floor; extensive, high quality used and rare books with search service on the second floor; cafe with big windows and river or ocean views, sharing a removable wall with a small 50-100 seat audiotrium for author readings, lit discussions, classic film screenings, Thursday night Open Mike and Sunday morning jazz (piped throughout the store) on the top floor. Not that I¹ve given it much thought.

Mitch - You went right through my old stomping grounds (Exit 21 off the New York State Thruway) and were just a grenade¹s lob from my sister¹s place. Jeez, but it is a small world...

Peter - I¹m sure Van Gelder sees the whole spectrum of writers and subject matter; to your advantage, I think being able to boast a writing credit or two from some smaller magazines would help get his attention, no matter how much of a kook he might think you are. As for medicinals, they probably gave me Percocet because I¹m older than dirt in wisdom-teeth extraction years (just turned 31 - or twenty-eleven, as I call it when I'm in denial); of course, there¹s no refill with my Percocet for a very good reason (hope there¹s no drug test at work in the next week or so).

Brad - http://harlanellison.com/text/ellicult.htm (right here at this very web site) is Harlan¹s piece on the mass suicide of the Heaven's Gate cultists, which contains his thoughts on the difference between science fiction and sci-fi.

Sue - The gyrations and grinning will help - I¹ve seen it make a difference in the past in my travels. No, really. :)

Maggie-

I also saw the article about Borders and the "books on demand" technology. It does raise a lot of questions, such as: what is the quality of the books produced? They are being generated on two printers (a color printer for the cover and a B&W for the text), then assembled and glued together by the Borders' staff. Do they understand the difference between a book and a Well-Made Book? Are these simply text or some format (such as PDF) that recreates the design originally intended by the publisher and author?

Speaking of them, what are the arrangments with the publishers and authors regarding sales and royalties? How's the accounting done?

Will the "McBook" (do you want fries with your Faulkner?) do away with TPB editions of, say, something like "Slippage" or "Angry Candy," does it maintain the integrity of the original work, or does Borders have their horde of troglodytes pounding away on laptops at the rate of 47 typos per minute?

And can we expect this to be purely demand driven, so the Borders Patrol will say to us, "Oh, I'm sooo sorry, we have nothing by Gerald Kersh or Fritz Lieber, but we do have a lovely selection of Jackie Collins!"

Maggie, you inspired me to pop another question of fanciful nature to the board (or maybe it's the 19 hours of sun we've had for the past few days finally thawing out my poor sodden brain...). Since we've been discussing bookstores and authors, internet orders and mail orders, used and indies, here's your chance to make your stake without actually risking your money...

If you could design the perfect bookstore, what would it be like? And for the bonus round, how would you plan to compete with the big chains & internet market which are claimed to be putting indies out of business? (BTW - this isn't meant to presuppose you have to be an indy; your perfect bookstore could be on the net...or a big chain)

Any takers? Come on, I know you're out there. Besides, here in Anchorage, it's a beautiful day for a daydream...

Peg
(p.s., to combat the theory of evil internet and big chains, I just recently learned of *another* used bookstore which opened a few months ago. So we're even growing).

FinderDoug! Oh good luck! I congratulate you on sticking your nose out there and I'll be looking for you in a magazing near me!
Brad: Personally, I prefer the term that HE used to use (I'm not sure if he still does), and that would be speculative fiction. Covers a lot more ground, and, quite frankly, I can't see any reason whatsoever to encourage the ghettoization of fiction. I like good fiction. I prefer fiction with a strong story line, as opposed to the current fashion for fiction as psycho-therapy. I really hate how little respect a lot of my favorite authors get by the main stream community. I hate that "good" fiction is so damn obscure, but that's a whole other issue.

To jump into the book store debate - two things. First: I personally believe that it isn't possible to have too many bookstores. My favorite town on earth has 4 excellent bookstores within walking distance of each other. 3 of those are used bookstores. All of which I have spent a great deal of time in. I love used bookstores. Unfortunately, I have become so allergic to dust mites (an occupational hazard at used bookstores and part of the beloved smell of such places), that used bookstores cause me to itch and sneeze. This has significantly (It's gotten to the point that I have to wear gloves and a mask when I clean or I break out in hives. Isn't that stupidly irritating?)reduced the amount of time I spend in used bookstores. Consequently, I have to admit that I have spent more time buying books on line, or going to the new Borders. For the record though - the biggest used bookstore in the region is a few blocks away from my flat. Less than a year after the Borders opened, and Midway Books is doing well enough to expand into the rest of their building. They will now be one whole three story building full of second hand books! See, you can never have enough book stores. . .

Second - Did anybody else read about Borders in negotiations with a company that has the technology to print books on demand? The article that I read stated that the idea was for a customer to go into the Borders and ask the clerk for a book. If the book was out of print, the clerk would be able to check a data base of available books and then print a paperback copy (complete with a color cover) for the customer while they wait. Seemed like pretty impressive technology to me.

Anyway. Back to the grinding pace of really bad, cluttered, awkward English - sometimes business English is just so EVIL.

Finder - I was visiting a friend of mine in NY. I'm not sure of the exact town. It was 2 1/2 to 3 hours from NYC, and a little bit north of a sign marked 'Round Lake / Burnt Hills' (which made me wonder what caused an explosion that big). As for the story submission, break a leg!

Mitch

Finder, I just sent my third submission a couple of weeks ago. Boy do I wish I hadn't. I went back over the story and just cringed at its pacing. And that was the third draft. I really need to be a little more discriminating about the things I send there. Van Gelder must think I'm some kind of kook. The funny thing is, I sent my GOOD stuff to some smaller magazines. I'll be sure to let the board know if I get any good news. Now if only I knew where to send my essays... my writing professor (an anti-genre literarist) hated my stories but absolutely loved my essay style and wants me to consider focusing on that. Well, I've added it to my daily writing, but have no idea where any of it could go. Oh well. Good luck to you on your submission (may you have better luck than I, that is) and my condolences on the loss of your teeth. I had mine removed when I was twenty (a whole year ago) and remember it being a rather unpleasant experience. They didn't even give me cool pain meds to take. All I got was tylenol.

---Peter

the post below should read from "Charlie", not "Chris". Sorry.

Chris- F&SF reported that he's novella is going to be a short story and the novella is to be used on another occasion. (corrected post)

Chris- F&SF reported that the he's novella is going to be a short story and the novella to be used on another occasion.

ALL: The History Channel lists the following times for the show: The Truth About Science Fiction
Tuesday 8-9pm
Wednesday Midnight-1am, 4-5am.

Best of luck th your submission to F&SF! Sorry, luck is the best I can offer - what are an atheist's prayers worth on the free market anyway?

Speaking of F&SF, the upcoming Oct/Nov issue is gonna be a 320-pg 50th anniversary spectacular and promises a brand new novella from HE!!! Not to mention many great writers. I think there's a "newly discovered" Theodore Sturgeon novella too.

I can't wait!

-chris

Ok, i have been having this conversation with a friend about what is and what is not science fiction. I have been trying to tell him that Star Wars is not science fiction but rather a fantasy film and Independence Day is in no way a science fiction film. Sci-fi is not Science Fiction, sci-fi is what the mass public just runs out and views to dumb their brian down. I remember seeing Harlan Ellison on television talking about this a few years back and was wondering if anyone out there could help back up what i am so desperately trying to say. Thanks.

DOC!! - *HUG* :-) No, you may NOT have our Leiber and Sturgeon books. ;-) I have to agree - reprints aren't what they used to be. We get a *teensy* bit grrrowwwly when folks want to "borrow" a book - because we have such a hard time finding replacements these days for many of our faves (and isn't that ALWAYS what they want to "borrow"?? How come they never rush off to BUY their OWN copy???). Ever since the local Yuppie invasion turned everything into a 'Ye Olde' around here, there isn't a used book store within less than an hours drive - and a decent used book store (what is that?).. The garage sales only offer up Grocery Store End-Cap sorts of things, the paperbacks that sit next to National Enquirer and The Star because they have a LOT in common - good for an emetic, if you need one, and not much else. The paucity of what we consider "standards" is indeed striking fear into our bibliophilic hearts.. And has caused a small change in our buying habits - we prefer the more expensive hardbacks now, because they hold up better, and who knows when/if you will ever see it in print again..

FINDER/DOUG - wisdom teeth? OUCH! F&SF submission? I'm grinning like a fool and shaking as hard as I can, to send out the requested "good vibrations".. You *really* think it will help?? 'Cause I feel pretty foolish.. Wait a minute! You put one over on me, diddenya...

Anyone in the San Francisco/Sacramento area who'd like to get together one fine day in early July (exact date still to be determined) let me or DOC know. Maybe we can get some kind of a Webderhead Not-So-Anonymous Meeting going..

Try High - Fly Straight - Drive Safe

Brian: I'm enough of a collector that I'd plunk down $20.00 for The Collected Harlan Ellison's Watching. I'd want them in shooting order with shooting date and air date shown prior to each commentary. It would also be nice is Harlan did an intro/outro to any commentaries that he felt required them.
SS

MITCH: if you liked "From A to Z in the Chocolate Alphabet," wait till you get a chance to read "From A to Z in the Sarsaparilla Alphabet" (a story written in 1990/1991). It uses the same format and is just as good as the first. It hasn't run in any magazine yet (got my copy when I bought a book during the time he wrote the story in the window of the Dangerous Visions bookstore), but I'm sure it will show up soon. Out here, DTS.

Hey Mitch - where in upstate New York? Perhaps we know the same broad swatch of forest...

DOC - Shadow zipped files? On the web? I must be doing this internet thing all wrong...I'm all a-tingle with the prospect. It always bothered me that The Shadow never got his reprint due. And you know, now that you mention it, I don't remember the last time I saw a fresh reprint of anything by any of the authors you named. And I don't know that I've ever seen a collection of Henry Slesar's work, who was a darned prolific short story writer. Even Matheson is a bit of a challenge these days. But with some of the reprint activity going on today (Dick, Bester, Bloch, Sturgeon, Lovecraft, etc), perhaps there's still hope. Gotta fly - time for my pain meds. Kids, heed old Finder's advice and get your wisdom teeth out when you're young - I look like I'm smuggling mangos in my left cheek. And wish me luck - my first ever submission to F&SF is going out the door this week, and I could use allthe good vibes I can get.

Doc - I've sung the praises of Leiber (Our Lady of Darkness) and Sturgeon (E Pluribus Unicorn) in previous posts. Beautifully haunting stuff.

What hit me recently was a 'rediscovery' of Ellison. The copy of 'Strange Wine' I ordered from bibliofind came in this weekend. I opened it up, jumped to 'From A to Z, in the Chocolate Alphabet', and fell in love all over again. It's friggin' magic.

Mitch

Just a bit of good reading I thought I'd pass on . . . I've just finished an essay by David Foster Wallace called "E Unibus Pluram: Television and U.S. Fiction," which has some very neat thoughts on why television is the way it is and how it affects American writers/has been affected by American writers. You can find it in his book, "A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again," but I believe it was also originally published in a magazine somewhere. Anyway, if your local library doesn't have the book, the purchasing librarian should be shaken roughly and given a stiff warning.

Look, *I* know he has his own (dedicated) website, and this is the Harlan Ellison site,... But I've been reading a lot of Fritz Leiber, lately, and it's like falling in love all over again. Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser aside, I never realized FL had such a whimsical side until I read "Endfray of the Ofay." At the moment, I'm lapping up his autobiographic essay in THE GHOST LIGHT. Any other thoughts on Leiber? His "The Last Letter," is almost premonitory, as well as being a riot. For that matter, how 'bout Ted Sturgeon? A recently-acquired E PLURIBUS UNICORN has me on about him again, too.

And since I'm dropping names, here, what are the group's thoughts about the seeming vanishment of some of the "Great Old Ones," if you'll permit the expression, of "scientifantasty" literature? A. Merrit, for example, or Frederic Brown? Even A.E. Van Vogt and Henry Kuttner are getting hard to find, to say nothing of Henry Slesar (who, if memory serves, wrote the absolute funniest "talking-dog joke" short-short, for I think "Weird Tales"). I was fortunate enough to discover a recent reissue of SLAN when I visited the DV bookstore (in person, thanks), and talk about serendipity while browsing!

FINDER> Or Doug. I, too, am in helpless, delighted thrall to the old "Shadow" pulps, and snap up the online ZIP files whenever I can. Anybody think there might be a market for a return of the old adventure/hero/detective/s-f/horror pupls? The originals are certainly lots of fun -- as I can see from the copy of "Fantastic Novels!" I picked up, featuring A. Merrit's SEVEN FOOTPRINTS TO SATAN.

SUE> Looking forward to our next face-to-face. There's gotta be some way to lure Wylie down to SF. Whaddaya say, Wylie -- Just Desserts, coffee, Weekend Cake,... mmmmmmmmmm!

PHILLIP> I'm in your corner, on the LANBSM thing. In fact, if Harlan ever gets around to having a look at the manuscript and clears it, I have (my *last*, dammit) review of it finished. It should be appearing anytime now. No whirligigs, no supercalifragilistic far-out furniture, just hard, personal stories. Wow.

Enough of me. Cheers, Doc

Shane: Thanks. I'm not sure but does the S**-F* channel own the rights to those commentaries? I know they were copyrighted by The Kilimanjaro Corporation (Harlan's own?) so I thought maybe HERC had collected them and made them available before I had joined. I guess it's my own fault for not recording them, but I was always holding out for a slickly produced video(or videos). I don't know. What does everyone else think? One nut like myself surely wouldn't convince anybody. Most probably have recorded their own. Would they be willing to pay what? $10-$20 for a tape which contains material they already have.

BRIAN: Send your question to: Feedback@scifi.com
Maybe if enough interest is shown the SF Channel will strike a deal with Harlan and tapes will be made available.
SS

(Delurking for a vaguely selfish reason)
Hello to all! My question: Are Harlan's commentaries from the Channel whose name won't pass Harlan's lips(we all know to what I refer right? Right.) available in a collected format i.e. VHS tape. I'm sure this question has been answered before and I apologize for treading on the over-trodden. I guess I could check the archives but Oh! the strain, the strain(in my best Dr. Smith voice). Beating feet back to anonymity(Wait, I already submitted my name and e-mail address. DOH!)

Wylie- That was a good find. If you didn't know, that's an import of 1/2 of the stories found in Along Against Tomorrow. The other import containing the other 1/2 is The Time of The Eye. You sure made a good buy, b/c ATSOF, I believe, is harder to find than TTOTE, and usually sells for at least $15+.

Talespinner Sam: I picked up an anti-radiation filter from the clearance shelf at office depot for $5. Do those help? (It's too small for my monitor at home, but I could install it on one at work) Just reading your post got me paranoid and I started to feel pressure on my skull and eyes . . .

Hey gang, just read All The Sounds of Fear by HE. Found it in my local used book store, pb, $2. Very cool stuff. See ya.
Wylie

I would like to delurk for a moment to mention that a healthy dislike of computer monitors is not necessarily a bad thing. If your screen is not an LCD device, a constant beam of low level radiation bathes your skull at close range, pitting and pocking your cranium with unnatural energies. Some recommend daily use of kelp, with its component of natural iodine, as a way of helping your overburdened flesh deal with this latest horror. There is even a tea out called Computer De-Stress, but ultimately your on your own in this regard. Don't say nobody warned you.

Just a little tidbit here.

Went into one of the more recently opened used book stores here in town. Had to give them some credit - the one HE book they had was in the general fiction section, not that other never to be mentioned section....

Wylie- I'm here (-: Anyway, thought I'd mention another book site I recently found. bookcloseouts.com. They have newish books at discounted prices. Picked up a HB of the"Intersections" anthology for about $4 +S&H.

Well, I guess my confession was a conversation killer. Where is everyone?

PS: don't hit CA without some serious allergy meds, if you've ever suffered from them, this place could kill ya.

Anna: I'm almost jealous of your amazing find, but I have to confess I've never finished a single story in that collection. I couldn't take it. Maybe I'll work my way up to it someday.
Congratulations all the same. :)

Sue: you must know by now you are my hero. I live an hour north of Doc and would absolutely love to meet you. Whether or not I'll have floor space by then (when are you coming?) remains to be seen, but any spare room I have is yours, should you be inclined to visit beautiful Northern CA. I'm still learnin' my way around (anyone remember the forget spell on the Gap Chasm from the first Xanth book?--Sonoma County IS the Gap Chasm and there's no one here to lift the spell, natch) but I know a few wonderful places off HWY 1 . . . North of us is Mendocino County--where Alice Walker lives and I've always wanted to meet her too. She's right up there with HE in my esteem and like my joy in his work, I need to share my joy in hers. Anyway--Let's Get Together! E-mail me or somethin', okay? Catch ya later. Wylie

Re: The leatherbound Deathbird Stories

Thanks for all your comments about my good luck in finding it. It's right beside my bed on the bookshelf. I still can't believe how excited I was to find it. This is the only bulletin board I've ever commented on - I'm enjoying the reparte'. Anna

De-lurking for a moment, in order to make a few comments:

1. I think that The Book of Ellison is worth a read; I feel the same way about The Fantasies of Harlan Ellison. Both of them are a bit hard to find/afford. If you get really lucky, you can find a paperback copy of The Book of Ellison at a fraction of the price of the hardbound (probably $25 - $50).

2. As a computing professional, I have heard that the unintended impact of the 'net will (a) break up marriages in untold numbers (b) put every storefront business except laundromats into bankruptcy (c) contribute to the decline and fall of the American empire by distribution of pornography. How much of this is true, and how much hyperbole? I sort of agree with Mr. Ellison, in that the net contributes to small bookstores' (this goes for software and record stores too) troubles. However, I must state that this net thing also gives small bookstores an opportunity for customers that they have seldom had before. By subscribing to one of the net search services (the aforementioned bibliofind, advanced book exchange, or the old interloc/new alibris) a small bookstore can find customers for the most obscure item.

As a small aside, I have been a collector of Ellison for many years. I would (and still) haunt used bookstores for any of his material. After 15 years of hunting (and actually going to the library to look up phone numbers of likely bookstores in cities I wasn't going to visit) I found the net. And found _every_ book Ellison has ever produced. Including The Book of Ellison, The Fantasies of Ellison, Foosteps, The Juvies, Rockabilly (I couldn't afford that one, though I was able to pick up a second edition), an original manuscript (!) of a short story that was published in Angry Candy and all the other books I needed for my collection. Where did I buy these? Maine, Washington state, Wisconsin, Mass., Texas, Illinois, L.A., Florida, Canada. As I keep telling my friends, the net is a tool--not unlike a hammer. Can it be used to hurt? Certainly. But as a means of communication (for both good and bad) it is nearly unparalleled in history.

3. I personally like the social interaction (and even the smell) of a bookstore. I don't particularly shop at any of the large internet stores. But I understand why people do.

4. (Blatant suck-up to Rick) Thanks for maintaining this site. My friends are amazed that the object of our affection--that's meant to be humorous--(Mr. Ellison, that is) personally posts on this site. The objects of their affection (rock stars, movie/tv stars) seldom have any interaction with their fans. Thanks for helping Mr. Ellison 'talk' to us peons. (My apologies if anyone reading this considers him/herself royalty.)Again, as a computing professional, my hat is off to you sir.

5. (Blatant suck-up to the regular posters) You guys are among the most intelligent, adult, lively group I have encountered on the net. I don't often have much to say, but I do enjoy reading your discussions.

Back to lurkersville.

Phillip - I like the Book of Ellison (how biblical THAT sounds when you say it out loud). It's an interesting mix of personal appreciations by the likes of Robert Silverberg and David Gerrold; assorted material by HE including some SF convention program essays, a couple of early short stories, and a 12 page legit autobiographical sketch; plus an extensive HE non-fiction checklist (through 1978) by Leslie Kay Swigart and an intro by Isaac Asimov. I don't know if it's worth a pair of C notes, but I enjoyed it.

Chris - the Advanced Book Exchange (www.abebooks.com) has additional sellers who aren't on Bibliofind, and makes a good additional independant source. They were sporting four copies of The Book of Ellison earlier today (including the one listed at Bibliofind).

Peggy - You know, it's been so long since I did any kind of mail order, I completely forgot about it. Of course, you're right - the internet isn't really that much different from getting a catalog every three weeks, be it from Sears or the Science Fiction Book Club. Same idea, different ordering medium. I guess I have been spoiled by the DC metro area and the surrounding commerce.

Otto: I used to work for B.Dalton's, and they would strip the covers off books to get credit from the publishers. Then they'd throw the actual books in the trash. I used to get the list every month, and I'd keep some of the stripped ones... feeling guilty, but then, they'd just be in the trash, anyway.
HE: I know where Harmon is. Know where the house is/was, too. Right near the corner of Jackson. We used to skip across Mentor Ave (busy street) to Newell to Lathrop. Harmon's on the other side, if I remember. Ah. If I'd only lived there some xxx years earlier.

I have to agree with OTTO. Some folks are just spoiled (as I used to be) by living in an area with that much choice in bookstores. I was thrilled that B&N and Borders opened, simply because there was so little choice before.

We have 1 really good used bookstore in Anchorage, and probably 3 - 4 other smaller stores. Until B&N and Borders opened, we had more independents than chain - *but* that's because there was only 1 chain bookstore, a Waldenbooks in the mall. The independents we do have are fairly small and cover limited territory. Certainly no genre stores.

Now we have both B&N and Borders. Amazingly, I think few, if *any*, indies have gone out of business. Is that because Anchorage folks don't shop at the big store? No, in fact, they're wildly popular (as is any chain store of any type that bothers to open here. We're starved for much of the familiar retails stores from the lower 48. Except for WalMart and Kmart. For some reason they've multiplied like rabbits. Which is the only ones I don't want. But back to the topic here....). Perhaps Anchorageans don't shop the net? Wrong again, we love it, similar reasons as above - availability of products and services that are very difficult to find easily.

The difference I believe is that the market is large enough in Anchorage - or, more appropriately, the market isn't large per se but it's undersupplied/underserviced - that there is enough business for everyone. There's enough for B&N and the independent book stores, for Borders, Sam Goody's and independent music stores, etc.

So where do I buy my books? Wherever and whenever I feel the urge. I've not been buying much lately because my book backlog is so huge I don't know if I'll ever get through it. When I do buy books, I'll hit the used stores and the chains and indies if they're on my way. I'll also mail order and internet order. I am non-discriminatory. I do try to get a good price, but if I find something I want I'll usually buy it then rather than search for a better deal. And for mail/net ordering, with the shipping charges to Alaska, even at discount prices the books don't tend to be a much better deal than the chain stores so I don't have a strong drive to order on-line unless it's a last resort.

[*digression alert* And another thing about mail order. I wonder why someone hasn't yet asked the obvious question - how is the internet so different from mail order book clubs that do massive junk mailings to everyone on earth? Why would mail order not cause the same problem to indies as does the internet? The info arrives at your mailbox, you pick and send in your order, and the stuff arrives on your doorstep. Maybe not convenient or thorough to the same extent as the net, but it was the first step and it function similarly. I've heard no claims that mail order has put indies out of business, but certainly millions if not billions of books were sold mail order before the internet flashed onscreen. Personally, I think the big chains had much more to do with indy demise than the internet.]

Good golly, I do tend to go on.

As far as getting used books goes, I'm pretty lucky. One of my multiple jobs (four and counting!) at this time is working at a public library. People donate their old books to us, and you'd be surprised at what people give away. The employees get to pick over what we have before the general public does, and it's great. Sure, some of it is complete dreck, but it's how I acquired all of my hardback Ellison, with the exception of Edgeworks, and numerous other classy works. In fact, I've gotten multiple copies of some of the Ellison books -- or I did, anyway. They make great Christmas/birthday presents for my beleagured friends.

I have to say, though, if it weren't for this job, I'd probably be exclusively a big-chain buyer. There simply isn't much to root through in my neck of the woods, since the book swap closed. I can understand the reluctance of people to search out a second-hand bookstore -- for me, the closest one is an hour's commute. I rarely feel the need to spend money so badly that I'll drive that far to a store. If I can, I'll order it through the local big-name whatever store. If that's not an option, I let it go. I figure a copy's bound to come through the library eventually. God, this job has made me lazy.

Anna - OK - I'm jealous.. And if that doesn't make your day, nothing will.. ;-) .. Patronage of the local bookstores hasn't helped in our neck of the woods.. :-( .. Border's began it's charge to become the K-Mart version of Barnes & Noble just 20 miles south of us, and did a pretty good job of wiping out everything else.

Wylie *HUG* - good to hear from you, even if the content wasn't everything I'd wish for you. Summer plans? Like our bike trip to the West Coast end of June/beginning of July?

Anyone have floor-space for free? e-mail me your street address, and you, too, may stare in astonishment at what you find on your carpet one fine morning.. Already have Doc on my list of intended victi.. err, people to visit.. :-) .. BARNEY and KEEGAN!! No Fair telling..

First, I want to apologize to Charlie. He dropped me an e-mail that made it clear I had misread a condescending tone into his post when there was no such intent on his part.

As for the discussion: Man, that leatherbound Deahbird Stories sounds sounds like a killer find. I wonder if they put the wrong price on it by mistake!

However, let me still try to hammer home the point about the Net being a friend to the small press and used/antiquarian book sellers.

At bibliofind.com, I found over 60 copies of Deathbird Stories offered by small stores across the country. Many of them were paperback editions. Several were hardback editions. Several were 1st ed. signed editions. Prices ranged from a few bucks for the paperbacks to over $100 for the signed 1st editions. Thanks to the Net, you have the choice of about 60 different copies from about 50 different small book sellers across the country.

Phillip, I don't know if you'll find The Book of Ellison in the loal store but you can find it on the Net. It's not an easy find and bibliofind only came up with one copy. This one is a limited edition of just 200 copies. Of course, you'd have to pay up for it:

ELLISON, Harlan) Porter, Andrew ed.: BOOK OF ELLISON, THE ; NY:
Algol Press 1978 1st. Limited - one of 200 in HB. Fine, no dj as issued. Science
Fiction - Critical Essays 117536 Offered for sale by Second Story Books-Mystery
& Science Fiction at US$225.00


powells.com did not have a copy of The Book of Ellison although a search for that book did bring up a signed copy of Footsteps (I'll admit, I'm ignorant of this one) as well as several other signed editions of hard-to-find HE books.

Over 60 copies just of Deathbird Stories are available to me solely because of the Internet. Hundreds of copies of out-of-print HE books are available to me solely because of the Internet.

How could you not love this place??? :)

-chris

I can't believe I'm still here.

Question to FinderDoug. ("FinderDoug"? Okay, whatever.) Question about THE BOOK OF ELLISON: Is it any good? I was told from someone who's opinion I usually trust that it was a book I could pretty much live without. I'd probably buy if I ever found it, but I'm pretty sure I'll never come across a copy of it.

Shane. Yeah, I was aware of the Price adaptation. To be honest though, I've never seen either movie. I love the story so much that I'm afraid that the movies will somehow ruin it for me. It's a childish fear, really, since the book is a seperate entity from the movies, but a fear nonetheless. I have heard that while Last Man on Earth is a little more loyal to the book than Omega Man, they both pale in comparason to the book. One day, I'll see for myself, but until then...

Wylie. Thanks for the vote of confidence in that story. Lawd knows I'm not very confident in it. I think I need to go back and work on it some more, when I have both time and the inclination, that is. Also, good luck to you. I hope things work out for the best.

---Peter

Peter: Speaking of THE OMEGA MAN (1971), did you know that it was a remake of the original adaptation of I AM LEGEND? Yep, THE LAST MAN ON EARTH starring Vincent Price (1964).

Hey everyone! I've been lurking for a while, enjoying the internet debate. I'm all outa juice from work and yucky personal stuff, but it feels wierd to read and not say hi. So, HI! I re-read your story about the Trolls, Peter, and it sure is nice to be free of them for the moment. Great story, great reminder of how civilized this particular oasis in the 'Net desert usually is. Anyone have enviable summer plans? Mine are dreadful--sell the house, get my own place (one that takes cats fer crissakes) and become a single mom by August 20 or so. This isn't a sympathy plea or anything--I'll be very happy when it's all settled, I'm just resisting the process. I hope all of you are looking forward to great things this season. Catch ya later. Wylie

A Half Price Books opened up nearby about a year and a half ago. Since, I've found a hardcover of Approaching Oblivion, and paperbacks of Dangerous Visions, Again, Dangerous Visions, and Partners in Wonder. Whenever I'm looking for a book, I check there first.

---Peter

Anna - Double appreciation from me - back when I was in the Houston area, I made a regular weekly circuit through the three Houston area Half Price Books locations, and found all kinds of fantastic things. That's where I found my copy of The Book Of Ellison. (Come to think of it, Houston was where I found much of my current Ellison collection - there was this one SF store off the Northwest Freeway (I think) that was to die for...but I digress). Good for you!

I'm so excited. I was browsing in Half Price Books yesterday and came across a leather bound copy of Deathbird Stories SIGNED by HE himself for $19.98!! I don't think the book had ever even been opened. The edges are gold and it has a gold ribbon to mark your place. This is the only group of people I know who would appreciate my excitement.

Anna

Hey, great discussions here - just wanted to take a brief break to remind folks to nominate HE for Writer's Digest's best 100 writers of the century (in which class I believe he fits.

http://www.writersdigest.com/bestwriters_text.html

Speaking of books, I just read HE's "A Path Through the Darkness" from LOVE AIN'T NOTHING BUT SEX MISSPELLED (in EDGEWORKS 4), and I realized again that this collection contains some of HE's best writing, stories which resonate; more heart-felt. The kind of stories that worked out so well that HE couldn't find a good ending for any of them; that would have been an insult. The writing is alive, and it's as if HE realized, "It wouldn't be right if I made this into just another story." There's something more truthful in the writing of this collection. The kind of truth that resonates from a genuine testimonial, as if THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED. I'm not saying these are HE's best stories. I don't know if I like most of HE's stories anyway. But it's certainly some of his best writing. Along with his HORNBOOK, I can appreciate it more than most of his writing, even more so than his recent fiction which might be the work of a more matured writer (that's obvious), but I don't think Harlan has ever gotten as close to the truth than he did with the writing in this collection. That's the beauty of it.

And I don't care about kissing the Big H's ass either; just being honest here. I'm not saying this because I think Harlan's listening (but if you are listening, What are you still doing here, man? HMM?). I just finished reading the story, and these are my spontaneous thoughts. I've ENJOYED LANBSM more than any of Harlan's other books, and what the hell; I felt like sharing. (Next in line I'd go for the HORNBOOK, SHATTERDAY and STRANGE WINE, but, hey, that's just me.) LANBSM is the book that finally made the difference for me in terms of how I thought of HE as a writer; reading the book was an EXPERIENCE. (And continues to be so, with the major exception of "Angle-Strap Wedgie," which I've attempted to read 3 times, but I seem to lose my juice for it before I even get halfway though it. Can anyone explain that? Is there something great about this story or the writing that I'm just not picking up on?) Until LANBSM, I used to pick up everything I saw by HE, but I didn't always buy everything I saw.

And along with the books I've mentioned here, at least 90% of the HE books I possess came from second-hand bookstores---not the Internet. I've managed to collect just about everything of HE's worth reading, and I'm pretty damn happy about that. Every time I'd find a HE book, it was a great day; it really was like finding treasure. Then one day I saw HE on the cover of the Comic Buyer's Guide, and discovered the HERC, and oh what blessing and a joy that was. In terms of buying brand-new HE's books, I've gotten most of them from the HERC. Pissed me off that I was broke when they offered the HE Special Edition of F&SF for $15, but still, the good old fashsioned way works for me most of the time. But this ain't much of an argument. I hate the Internet most of the time, but I hate TV too and it's just as bad. I'm watching crap shows all the time.

P.S. , In my last posting, there was a quote from Harlan that didn't come through complete for some reason. It was supposed to read:

"Institute any kind of system… and some asshole… will warp and twist it to his/her own ends." (from one of his previous postings)

And I'm surprised nobody said anything about me doing the same thing with HE's words. See ya.

(Delurking) One great thing about the Internet is that it allows people to set up sites like this so that people with like interests can get together. I use the Internet a lot as a librarian, and there's a great deal of good information on it. There's also a lot of dreck. The Internet is neither good nor bad; it simply is.
After I posted my first message, someone welcomed me to the list. I'm afraid I didn't get her name, but thank you for the welcome! I did decide to go to Readercon, so I'm hoping to meet some of you there.
One more good thing about the Internet: I'm going to Pittsburgh this week to attend a conference and thru the Internet I've located several bookstores to visit.
(Going back into lurkdom)
Bye!

All that being said, of course, if some comic book company called me up and asked me to write them an issue of, say, Daredevil or Dr. Strange or Batman or the Spirit ...
Well, I'd have a lot of trouble not sticking my metaphorical tongue down their throat in a fevered assent.
Somehow, writing about properties which are and always have been properties doesn't see as abhorrent to me.

Hey, if it was good enough for Bester, Sturgeon, Bloch, Gaiman, ELLISON ...

I hate media-based books.
BUT.
That's just my personal preference, and I'll get to the whys later.
Two of my very best friends in the world are Trek/Wars junkies. One owns literally EVERY Star Trek book ever written, and the other owns about half of them and every Star Wars book (and, despite his jubilation at the thought of a new SW movie and his slavish devotion to all things Lucas, he STILL hated Phantom Menace).
I see these books on their bookshelves, and it depresses me greatly.
I KNOW that these books are written by such luminaries as Vonda McIntyre, David Gerrold, Peter David, and others. I KNOW that these books likely earned more for the writers than any other books they may have written. I know that they're probably good books.
But you won't catch me reading them.
I intend to finish this book I'm writing. I intend to sell it. I intend to repeat the procedure as often as possible.
I believe that a writer's ideas should be his or her own. That an editor tells you what you have to do to make your book better, not what you can and cannot write before pen has even been put to paper. I don't like the idea of a John Ordover or George Lucas overseeing every step of a creative process that should, by rights, be the author's own.
I would never disparage another writer for writing media-based books--in fact, I'm net friends with one of the writers who's ghosted a few Shatner Tek books. I'm not against paying the bills.
Still, I'm firmly entrenched in the mindset that a writer should be able to point to his or her book and say, "I wrat that; I thunk it up. There isn't a thing on those pages that didn't come right out of these here neurons."
I know; it's naive.
Nevertheless, the books I own will be their writers' entirely.
The books I write will be my own.

How interesting - all my 's became 1s. Knowing this will make reading my post a tiny bit easier, methinks. That's what I get for not staunchly defending technology and the net, I guess.Í4Pk

Hmm...where to step, where to step, where to step in the minefield...Peter: Right on. If someone¹s bent is Babylon 5 novels, or Seaquest novels, or Trek, Wars, et al, more power to them. I¹m not ashamed to step up and admit that in years past I sucked down Star Trek novels...and before that, I was snickered at for reading The Shadow and Doc Savage, and before that I was eyeballs deep in the Hardy Boys. Ultimately, it all contributed in some way to the reading comprehension I enjoy today.

I may never go back to any of them - tastes and personal gratifications change, and tie-in fiction doesn¹t appeal any more - but if people want to read Star Trek novels, or John Grisham, or John Saul, or Jackie Collins, or ANY other author they enjoy, at least they¹re reading, which is nowhere near a passive activity, which requires the application of one¹s gray matter, and which usually finds readers moving among a number of authors, genres and levels of critical appeal (which is a subjective measure at best anyway). (And as an aside, a laughed so hard I cried imagining the Jerry Maguire kid as Anakin Skywalker. You simply ain¹t right...)

On bookstores - of the 800+ books I own, four came from electronic sources - all books that were out of print that I had been mining for for literally years. A substantial majority of the remainder came from independent new or used book stores. McDonald¹s Book Ends on Water Street in Catskill was in a run down old warehouse, and the place en toto would have gone up in about three minutes with the introduction of but a single flame - but there was magic in the narrow rows, the tightly packed shelves, the hundreds of thousands of volumes. I wish it was still there, because it would be worth the seven hour drive to me today, with all kinds of new and interesting tastes I didn't have at age twelve. As it is, I¹ve got seven small stores (and one big one) that regularly offer up treasures I¹m not necessarily actively seeking, but are very desirable (would you pay $15 for a gorgeous, two volume slipcased, annotated complete Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes?) You simply don't get the 'gee whiz' factor of a random discovery on line that you get hands on.

Harlan¹s point is well taken: the technology isn¹t inherently bad. There will always be a segment that uses it to good, even meaningful ends. There will always be a segment that exploits it. There will always be a segment that profits by it. As far as the Internet is concerned, it¹s here, and it¹s going to stay. I think it¹s incumbant on each of us to understand the ramifications of the way we use it (as with any tool) and to find ways to use it towards better ends for all.

And while you¹re right, Chris, that the megastores began the demise of the small bookstore well before anyone thought of using the web as a sales tool, the proliferation and popularity of on-line superstores will only further hasten their demise - and will probably contribute to the demise of some of those big chains, too. There are a whole host of other mitigating factors as well, but the Net is, admittedly, a big target.

And yes, all of those little independents could benefit somewhat from a net presence, but then you¹ve got a whole new set of problems for the small businessman, from electronic business start up costs to the sudden need to not just compete for your niche in your town or city, but to compete with people in markets that may have a substantially lower operating cost (let¹s face it - a storefront in small town Iowa costs a whole lot less than one in Georgetown). It's easy to say that they simply need to adapt or perish - but as realistic as that view may be, it's also coldly dismissive of the reality of the flesh and blood people who operate small stores as their way of life.

Of course, no one ever said Darwinism was fair.

And when said Star ---- reader asks "where are all of the friggin apes, and what's with these vampires?" let them know that you were talking about Omega Man and not Planet of the Apes.

---Peter (who should finish thoughts before signing off)

Alright, I have to take issue here. Yes, I'll admit that a 99.999999999% majority of Star Trek and Star Wars novels are sheer unadulterated crapola. However, I would prefer people be reading these mindless bits of overpriced fan-fictions than reading nothing at all. Maybe this has to do with living in California (yeehaa! forty-ninth in ejumacation!), but honestly, I wouldn't want to disparage any attempt at being literate. The act of reading a cereal box induces more brain activity than say, Jerry Springer, so to come down on people because they read Star Wars or Star Trek, or Buffy (marvelous show, by the way) or Robotech, or even AD&D is nothing more than the same bigoted, elitist attitude that I find reprehensible in most proponents of "literary" fiction.

I believe we've had this discussion before on this board. The marketing of what some of us like to call "good fiction", good being a subjective term (no matter how many times my writing professors would claim otherwise), has to be a grass roots initiative. Since the publishers don't seem to want to spend any money pushing books which have no chance of fellating the gods of the New York Times Bestsellers List, good books have to be marketed through word of mouth. You know someone who only reads Star Trek? Give them a copy of Slippage and say "Hey this guy wrote for star trek way back when" Yeah, it's a cheap shot, but it'll at least get the guy's attention. Or give someone a copy of I Am Legend and say "Yeah, you know that movie with Chuck Heston... No, not the NRA's gun safety video... Yeah, the one where he's like the last man on earth..." Then you suggest away different book titles and authors. Then they'll tell all of their trek junkie buddies and soon we'll get people reading. But by looking down on people who read Star (insert title here) we do nothing but turn ourselves into the enemy. For isn't the enemy the one who looks down on what we read?

---Peter

Charlie,

I am well aware of where to look for I Am Legend. There is no need to be condescending. The book was unavailable at any local store at the time I looked for it.

Why should I order the book through a store, wait for them to get in and then have to go back and pick it up when I can order it myself online, have it delievered directly to me and almost certainly at a cheaper price?

By all means, support the small press. I do, too. But I think it's a mistake to be so arrogant and elitist. They're the only ones carrying the quality spec. fic according to you. Maybe other people have different taste than you and just maybe that doesn't automatically mean they are ignorant, drooling trolls unfit to breathe the same air as you.

I get depressed whenever I look at the best-seller list at Amazon but, hey, it's not my place to judge. I pay money to support the sort of books, films, and other art forms I appreciate. Other people spend their money on what they like.

That's how life works.

I'm not likely to be around for a few days so attack at will! :)

-chris

I Am Legend continues to be in print; however, you need to look in the horror section, not sf. I've seen plenty of copies of the latest 1997 ed. in both new and used bookstores. I'm sure if you ask your friendly neighborhood bookdealer, they'd be happy to order it for you if it's not in stock. Try ordering the latest Hal Clement on NESFA press from either B&N or Amazon. They wouldn't have a clue. This is why we need to support the small presses and the specialty book shops, b/c they're the only ones carrying and producing quality spec. fic. and not the latest Star Trek crap novel. Charlie

Alex,

Actually, I list my home city as Philly just for simplicity's sake. I live in the 'burbs and you couldn't pay me enough to travel into the city unless it was a matter of life and death. I'm a suburbanite through and through and, with that stricture in place, there simply are no reliable sources for used or hard-to-find books. There is a nice little used book store in Ardmore where I find occasional gems but that's about it.

So where to turn? The Net, of course. Even if you hate Amazon.com (which, until the last couple years, was "the little guy" fighting against the big corporate fatcats) you can find all sorts of great little bookstores that have woken up to the necessity of having a Net presence. Little corner stores who previously only had the potential to draw in local customers can now reach a customer base spanning the entire world. The opportunity is there for the taking. Web pages are awfully cheap.

Your point about the library having a copy is a good one. Support your local library, folks!!! But, for me, I don't like to read borrowed books. I want to own the book. I want to shell out my money to pay the author and/or the publisher as he or she deserves to be paid. This is not an elitist thing, it's just a matter of personal preference. I like to own what I read.

I think laying the blame on the Internet is mistaken. The smaller stores are being forced out by the big, chain stores, not by the net. Mom and pop drugstores across the country got forced out of business by Wal-Mart way before most anyone ever heard of the Net. The smaller bookstores were getting run out of town by Border's and Barnes and Noble before most anyone had heard of the World Wide Web.

In fact, I believe strongly that the Net provides an extraordinary advantage for the smaller stores as I mentioned above. In the "real world," they have no way to compete with the big chain stores. On the Net, it's a whole different story. You can create a web presence with virtually no money. You can leverage a miniscule amount of capital into a steady revenue stream.

Use a book search engine to find a particular copy of an out-of-print book you want. You'll get a list of little, local stores across the country which have it in stock. Some of them have websites, some of them don't. You can either visit their web sites and order the books or just write down their phone number and give them a call if you don't like doing business on the web. The point is, the Net lets you know about these guys when you never could have known before.

It was through this website that I find out about the special edition of Slippage being put out. It was through this website that I found out about HERC and ordered several signed copies of HE novels as well as a couple of tapes and the Paladin CD.

The Net is a valuable tool for the little guy, a way to level the playing field. Some of them will adapt. Some of them won't. They can make the choice for themselves, though.

The proliferation of the Internet is one of the most significant developments in the recent history of mankind. It is at least as important as the construction of trans-continental railroads. it may well prove to be every bit as important as the Industrial Revolution itself.

A lot of people are afraid of change. Revolutions aren't good for everyone. But they happen. The Net is a revolution. Instead of dismissing due to some misplaced neophobia, why not embrace it and make the best use out of it you possibly can?

-chris

I found it pretty interesting that people are citing I AM LEGEND as the arbiter of whether good books can be found.
First off, I don't believe it's actually even out of print. True, it's NOT the easiest book to find, but it's there.
Let me recount my ownsearch for the book.
Years ago, as an impressionable, barely-pubescent teen, I was reading a Stephen King book. (We all went through the King phase in school, yes? Now, though, I eschew a lot of his work in favor of his short work and some of the more recent novels. That having been said, THE GREEN MILE _DID_ blow me away.) In the beginning, there was a note from Little Stevie, pointing out how some book called I AM LEGEND, by a guy named Richard Matheson, scared the bejesus out of him and set him on a life of doing the same to others.
Fast-forward a few years.
In a comic shop, I stumble upon the first issue of the Eclipse Books adaptatation of the book (story adapted by Steve Niles; drawn in a sketchy, Vince Locke/Guy Davis/Berni Wrightson-like style by Elman Brown). It was very good. It had me wanting more. It had me wanting the actual book. Problem is, I was so overdue with library books, there was no way I could take stuff out without being summarily shot. The Encores, Borders, B. Daltons--didn't have it.
A few more years go by.
I've fallen heavily into addiction to used bookstores. Thirty, forty, fifty books a week. Luckily, I've found my neighborhood library has a booksale of its own, and that much more affordable than the prices at the used places. $0.25 a paperback and $1 a hardback makes for a whole hell of a lot of good books in my room.
The week after I find I AM LEGEND in a downtown used bookstore (spent that $2.50 like a shot), I find two more copies at the library.
Yes, I could have gotten it there.
I also could have gone down to Joseph W. Fox Bookstore on Sansom Street downtown (established 1920, they specialize in literary fiction, rhetoric, and art and architecture books), and ORDERED it, as I have with quite a few Ellison books.
(By the by--it's worth noting that this bookstore and the How-To Bookstore are the only ones left on a four-block run of Sansom once called Bookseller's Row. Two blocks away is a Borders; three blocks away is a B&N. Both are the size of department stores.)
Chris, I encourage you to look at the library booksales in this town. The best one is a block from me, at the Northeast Regional.
The one downtown is very good, but they sell books at used-bookstore prices, and for that I'd rather go to the big used bookstore on South Street.

Oh, and Sue--a study that was just shared with a friend of mine taking a communications class maintained that, on the average, an American will read 1.3 books per year.
Not thirteen. One point three.
Now, I don't know how skewed this study may be, but think about it--even if the correct number is ten times that, isn't that just a bit scary?
Literacy may be going up, sure--but how many people are READING?

A message to all you Great Egotistical Chumps calling everyone who doesn't adhere to your personally prescribed list of cultural biases, and literary proclivities "The Great Unwashed Masses": "SCREW YOU"

I seem to recall Ellison saying something about an "informed opinion" being the only valid variety.. So inform me..

1. When did literacy start to decline? I can't seem to find any facts to substantiate that anywhere. All I can find is data showing a continuous RISE in literacy (up-to-the-minute world-wide data covering long term records of literacy rates, at the click of a few cyberbuttons - yeah, I can see how being a webhead is dumbing me down..). That's right - "The Great Unwashed Masses" are consistantly reading and writing MORE as time passes.

2. How does the internet contribute to "further dumb down The Great Unwashed Masses"? There are a few absolute requirements to being on-line. You must have access (hardware, and connectivity), and you must be able to read and write (literacy). Cyberspace is dependent on the written word - unlike television, movies, and radio. Try surfing Asian sites, and you'll see what I mean immediately. Because the written word is the primary, and usually only, means of communicating with other people live on-line (yes, I refer to those IRC, chat rooms, B-Boards, etc., so reviled by those who don't use them - where judgements are formed based solely on the written word, and feedback is immediate) participants are forced to focus on literary skills to communicate effectively (which fosters better skills - if only to avoid being flamed as a moron, or being completely ignored for lacking those skills - a *powerful* motivation to improve literary skills, or leave the forum). This is not a SpellCheck/AI-assisted/Thesaurus-driven kind of thing - it's an off the top of your head, on the spot thing, requiring personal ability. So how does a focus on literary ability contribute to a decline of those skills?

This is not the first time this "topic" has come up, and sadly, probably won't be the last time either. The arguement is based on the misconception that any art is static, with standardized "rules" which must be followed to qualify as "real art" (overlooking the constant change and evolution in every art form over time); the notion that "art" and artists are somehow superior to the "non-artist" audience (overlooking the fact that all artists are themselves the audience most of the time); and a serious logical flaw in assuming that art is unrelated to the ability to communicate ideas to mass quantities of other people.

The number of writers does increases as literacy increases. The number of people able to acquire and act on "informed opinions" with regard to literature also increases. The validity of the label "art" is directly related to how many of those informed opinions confirm it's ability to communicate, and to what degree. The increase in the number of people able to participate in this process is not a "dumbing down", but a "shaking down" of literature. Literature, which by definition is supposed to communicate, is being put to the test using it's own definition.

It's nothing new - just accellerating with the literacy rate. "The Great Unwashed Masses" have been culling the literary herd ever since the first LiteraturePrometheus gave them the alphabet - and self-proclaimed literary experts have been bitching about it ever since with shattered elitism and cultural bigotry expressed in name-caling.. Always a clear sign of intellectual prowess..

Don't like my opinion? *shrug* I don't like the elitist bigotry inherent in the term "The Great Unwashed Masses". The solution? The same as it always was - write literature that communicates and qualifies as art to make the cut, or come up with something that justifies the term.

I did just wake up... that's s'posed to be "hmmm, peter.com..."

---Peter

Hmmm, peer.com, I like the sound of that. But seriously folks, soapbox aside, I think that the internet is a great tool for finding books, as a last resort. I remember when I had my own "Quest for Matheson" the other summer. I too was searching high and low for I AM LEGEND. I scoured bookstores (new and used) from Oakland to San Jose, searching the shelves like an archaeologist searches dirt. However, my labors seemed all for not. Although the proprietors of the stores I was searching would say "Oh, I've heard of that book" they would never have it. So I took my search to the web. Except, rather than buying it on the web, I found the website for a small bookstore in Berkeley called Dark Carnival and decided, Heck, if they don't have it... and the rest is history. They had it, I bought it, and I found a cool store which I hope will stay open long past the time I can begin to afford most of its wares. Yes, I will concede that buying books online is a last resort for me, one which I have used before. However, I just don't get the thrill of actually stumbling across a book in a UBS, or the thrill of conquest at the end of a long and arduous search.

---Peter (there was a point, but I just woke up)

Sorry but I still have to strongly disagree with HE's "side" of this Internet debate regarding books.

I did, in fact, search all the local bookstores for a copy of I Am Legend and didn't find one. That included the big chain stores and the two "corner stores" which carry used books. nada. No Richard Matheson in sight anywhere. If not for Amazon.com, I would not have a copy of I Am Legend, period, end of discussion.

And I think the argument about the Internet killing off the "impulse buying" of books is actually completely wrong. The Net is exactly where you find all these books you were never looking for before. The Net is the greatest facilitator of impulse buying I have ever seen.

Lots of sites will list related books for the book you're purchasing. Invariably, any time I order from Amazon.com, I wind up ordering the one or two books I planned to roder and one or two or five books I had absolutely no intention of ordering but I stumbled across simply because of the Net.

If I just want the standard, bestseller type stuff, I can go find that at a local bookstore. If I want to find the obscure, off-the-beaten-path material, the Net is the only place to look.

Have you ever checked out Powell's Bookstore on the Net? It's awesome. I'd kill to have a place like that near me but I don't. But because of the Net, I can shop at Powell's, a great little "corner" used book store.

If the little corner stores want to compete, they're going to have to get their asses on the Net. The Net is the great level playing field. It's every bit as easy for me to shop at Powell's as it is to shop at Amazon. There were a couple of wonderful used book stores in Boston where I used to live. If they got on the net, I could still shop from them. But they're not there so I can't. That's their own fault.

The Net provides the opportunity for anyone to do business. If some shop owners don't take advantage of it, whose fault is that?

-chris

Saw HE a few nights ago on "Politically Incorrect." He was railing against the internet -- amusing, because at this point, it's just a little like complaining that the Pacific is too big and too damn wet, and we ought to do something about it.

Turns out he has a grudge against against amazon.com because it's becoming successful enough to drive some smaller bookstores out of business, a case of too much success. (The same was being said a few years ago about Dalton/Waldenbooks/Crown, etc.) I've been hearing stuff like this from other people -- e.g., the gay/lesbian bookstores here in SF.

Nowhere have I heard a seriously-proposed solution (assuming there's a problem).

Here's my take on it: there will always be a certain number of people who like to go into bookstores and look around, hang out, etc. I'll be there, and I suspect I'll never buy a book online -- but having looked at amazon recently I can well imagine learning about a book, getting intrigued enough to go down to the corner store and ask for it.

I learned more about a particular book in ten minutes than I ever could have by scouring all the bookstores in town, and asking the employees what they thought - I suppose there was a time in history when sales clerks knew something about what they were selling, but it ain't true no more. (Not just just talking about the mall stores, either.)

There may be fewer bookstores in the future, but they will need to find out what people can't get on-line -- a couch, a cup of coffee, links to the surrounding community, a quiet room in the midst of modern chaos, e.g. -- and they will inevitably be owned and operated by people who are motivated by things other than cash.

Anyway, aside from some friends of his his who got burned, I really couldn't see what he was on about...

...yes, I know you can find a copy of I AM LEGEND, but only because someone has told you about it...but what about the million great books no one remembers or gets around to mentioning, that you would actually SEE if you were browsing a live store instead of a teensy computer screen?...

---------

THAT, my friends, is why this is harlanellison.com and not peter.com or jimhess.com or xanadu.com. (Not that I'm particularly comparing them to me or vice-versa.)

It's all about the serendipity of finding a book you know nothing about, by an author you've never heard of, containing a story you never even imagined was possible that ALSO looks cool on the outside, and by god, turns out to be cool on the inside, too.

(There was a period in my life, when I had more disposable cash than sense, that I bought great gobs of books simply because they had cool covers.) (I also believe that was how I came across our website namesake... a used copy of Nebula Awards Three, I think... The book had a green cover and A Boy and His Dog in it. I say I think because that book has been lost to the mists of time, moving, or overzealous friends, and I've never confirmed if that was the book...)

Anyway, I say that the argument about the loss of serendipity is probably the most dead-on. I think the $$$$ and business argument has less to do with any technology and more with the crushing press of Capitalism. Where more money has to be made faster, and non-instant performers are quickly brushed aside.

We see this in television, where a show that has a hope of being an intelligent, thoughtful exploration of man's future is canceled BEFORE A SINGLE EPISODE IS AIRED, and books in airports are retired if they haven't sold in a couple of hours. This ain't because of the internet, folks. It's because the bottom line looks so much prettier if there are a lot of black zeros between the first digit and the decimal point.

I say TV, the internet, and whatever else is coming down the pike are more a reflection and creation of capitalism's insatiable hunger for dinero, rather than the reverse. And whatever falls in capitalism's titanic crush is just more jetsam in the cultural backwash. All bow before the great god, money....

I'm outta here - I can feel the hairs on the back of my neck rising, and that can only mean one thing... Someone's at the door, someone's at the door...

Alrighty folks, finals is finally finished. That said, I went this morning to catch a showing of Dennis the Phantom Menace. Not bad. Not great, but not bad. Although, and it may be that I expect way too much, I was still dissappointed in it. What? You may ask. Peter? disappointed with a movie he has been decrying since before it came out? How could this be? Well, quite simply, I keep seeing potential in what is quite simply an action flick. Lucas has this sick habit of taking ideas with a lot of potential for depth and growth (such as the ambiguities between good and evil, and the hypocritical nature of the jedi) and just sort of brushes them over. To use a rather awful analogy, it's like he has this large, deep pond, filled with wonderous creatures and amazing sights, and Lucas is quite content to skip stones along the surface. He'll establish the appearance of depth, without actually taking the plunge. Otherwise, it is a fun, mildly obnoxious action movie which has more light saber battles than lines of dialogue. Still, I think the disappointment stems from wanting a lot more than really appears. Potential is wasted and my five bucks just went to an emotionally stimulating, if intellectually vacant movie.

Oh, and I thought the kid was still annoying. They should have had that kid from Jerry Maguire do it. he would have done a much better job. "Did you know that a Hutt's tail weighs eight pounds? Did you know that Jawas can smell fear. My neighbor has wamprats."

---Peter (Home and still recovering from finals)

First up, I ain't no smart cookie. Nor am I responsible or upstanding. I leave the toilet seat up, drink out of the milk carton, and leave the balled-up socks under the bed instead of putting them proper-like into the laundry hamper. --whoosh-- With a reputation like that I won't get anywhere in the world. As Henry Miller (Tropic of Cancer) once said: I would have been sccessful had it not been for my knowledge of right and wrong. Anyhoo, the reason I popped in here again (three times? One day? Fer chrissakes, already. I'll go blind at this rate and get pimples from this thing) is because of something Harlan Ellison said, grousing endlessly into the twilight of the written word: About AOL ('AOL': the sound a constipated vowel makes, perhaps?) and how it goes to continually disconnect you. A thought: As a member of Compuserve (which some insist is the bastard sibling of AOL; we're owned by the same group) I have the same problem from time to time. The reason is because I have an account based on unlimited monthly access time for the flat rate of whatever the hell it is I pay. Of course, there is puce to the silver lining of this particular cloud: If I stay connected for two hours Compuserve will disconnect me and make me dial back in. If I am, according to their system, 'inactive' for more than twenty minutes, I will be disconnected. Maybe the latter of these problems for me is the same for Harlan. A thought, then: Collect your e-mail, disconnect (if you don't), wade through the mail, answer the ones needing answers, reconnect, send the outgoing mail, disconnect. Thus, circumventing the silliness of the system. But, well, what do I know: I embrace Ludditism and I'm off to do something non-technology like: Sex fish. (Don't ask. It's just too weird to explain, although the late Edward Abbey would approve.) Until next time. . .

Aw, hell. I did two more pages on this, detailed detailed detailed, and I even sent page 2...but it wasn't logged in (or whatever term you use for getting it onscreen), and AOL cut me off as I was concluding my variorum position on the Web, one sentence from the end of page 3. And so, Ive wasted an hour of my writing day. It wouldn't have happened if I'd been using my typewriter. And so...
With anger and annoyance, and self-loathing for having allowed myself to be sucked into this enticing blather-toy's clutches, I leave. As I said I was doing, threee messages ago. I must be one fuggin slow learner. --he

None of that mitigates the damage done by the existence of the internet--see my parallel remarks re: television in either of the GLASS TEAT books, or my introduction to ANGRY CANDY--and it is a damage that manifests itself with ANY new technology, or fad, or trend. Take radio for instance. Yes, I think everyone should have an opportunity to hear The Back Street Boys or Shania Twain or Black Flag if they want to. But since the $$$$$s for the corps are in listening (this week) to Ricky Whoeverthefuggheis, that's who is slathered across the dial, and to hell with anyone who wants to listen to Gustav Mahler or Big Bill Broonzy or Sister Rosetta Tharp or Glenn Miller or Eric Dolphy or even Stevie Ray Vaughn. The problem with the internet--follow me here, folks--is that by flexing itself so strenuously, by convincing the gullible masses and the even-more-gullible business community that the net is the ONLY place to be, it kills everything in its poath. It kills independant bookstores (and I am truly getting sick to death of all of you li'l webheads saying how GOOD it all is, on the basis of anecdotal examples in which YOU can buy a copy of I AM LEGEND on the skein because you're too fuckin lazy to go out and find a copy at some used paperback shop in the nastynigguh section of town where honestwhitefolks wouldn't fear to tread) (which is pure selfish self-interest, and purblind refusal to notice that tv and tv-tie-ins and internet and blahblahblah ancillary venues are sending writers into oblivion, obscurity, poverty, bankruptcy and total vanishment) (not to mention how the commonweal and the body politic are being corrupted by the destruction of independent bookstores, even though, yes, I know you can find a copy of I AM LEGEND, but only because someone has told you about it...but what about the million great books no one remembers or gets around to mentioning, that you would actually SEE if you were browsing a live store instead of a teensy computer screen?) where the hell was I...?

ON THE SUBJECT OF THE INTERNET . . .

It's Saturday morning, and I came to visit for a moment. I think Jim Hess is one smart cookie. Which is not to minimize the cleverness of the rest of you. But let me, for a genuinely brief moment, attempt to explicate--for the millionth time--my position on the web and by extension, ALL technology).
For assisting members of the medical profession who need to keep on the leading edge of rapidly-developing procedures, it is a blessed godsend. For getting in touch with people in other lands instantly . . . WHEN THE CIRCUMSTANCE IS OCCASIONALLY URGENT (as opposed to all the chat crap and jokes and advertisements and other useless dribblechin flotsam that could go by regular mail without becoming even an instant stale-dated), it is a wonderful technological development. For...

Well, you get my point, and the extension of anecdotal uses is obvious. For all that, and more, I am very high on the internet. But...

One quick remark on the penis remark, based on advice from Martha Stewart, domestic goddess: Throw one of them nifty little dryer thingies in with it to reduce static cling. Few other things can cause a face to turn red from embarassment because of Electro Static Discharge (ESD) that results in your shlong clinging to your socks. Until next time. . .

Ah. . . Henry Rollins. Make a note of that name mentally and come back to it when more time is available. Maybe he was holding his own, but, of course, against Harlan, anyone will look comatose. As to Harlan and the Internet, well, during my trial by fire with him in Denver almost a year ago I got the impression (I could be wrong here; feel free, HE, to use that recommended cheeze grater on my privates, as previously noted to reprimand me if wrong here) that a reason (not THE reason) Harlan dislikes the Internet is because it goes to further dumb down The Great Unwashed Masses. Who--honestly, now--actually uses a spellcheck before they send off a missive to this person or that one? Who--honestly--takes the time, when banging the keys of the computer, to actually check to make sure what they wrote is correct--grammatically, mechanically, etc.? Further-and this is me now, not HE--the Internet goes to strangle and speed up the death of the printed word. I cannot begin to count off the number of numbnuts who have never heard of Norman Spinrad, Thomas Pynchon, etc. because they don't have a presence on the World Wide Web. But ask them about--and no offense intended--Anne Rice or Stephen King or John Grisham or whatshername--the one who writes that romantic sex pot crap with titles like "the First Wives Club"--and it is as if you just suggested they do something obscene with the chance to get away with it big time. As a wise old bird (unfortunately, no longer with us) once told me when it comes to technology, despite the form it takes: Use it, it is a tool; abuse it, it is a weapon. At this point, given the nature of the beast and the apparent unwillingness of the many, I have to view the Internet and the World Wide Web overall as a weapon we are abusing, using against ourselves instead using to better ourselves. Wouldn't it be great (he said, following with a sigh of wistfulness) if the World Wide Web could be used to do away with, completely, absolutely, illiteracy? Until next time. . .

**Xanadu** Ummm.... I don't REMEMBER getting laid at I-Con... Hey, Timbo, pull your head out of that book - do you remember me getting laid? No? Hmmmm. Damn, these blackouts are getting much worse. Was your wife the person I said was too normal looking to be on line? She wouldn't be the first person I've said that to. It's like Andrew Dice Clay says - it's gettin' so's you can't say nuthin nice about a woman anymore.
Well, the moon is nearly full. I'm off to the cellar. Regards,
Barney [the Lawrence Talbot of Webderland].

Amy--A similar argument is made in the "Columbia Literary History of the United States."(ISBN:0-231-05812-8) edited by Emory Elliott. Not a bad book, with each section by a different contributor. Harlan is mentioned on one page, amongst the "New Wave" writers. Basically argues that in America, science fiction is not given its due, but across the ocean it is. Lots of great names are dropped, but it doesn't go too in depth. Seems to be most enamored with William Gibson, but I've only skimmed it once in a while, lacking the patience to pore over it thoroughly.

Hello again. (Hi to Barney (I will still have to call you out for your behavior with my wife at I-CON, but until then have a nice life baiting lightning...:) )), Hi to FinderDoug, my partner in crime, and greetings and salutations to the rest of the folk....)

Now for my $1.25 (It not your mama's quarterstaff)....

Harlan Ellison doesn't like the Internet. I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

He isn't a Luddite. Technology doesn't scare him any worse than others in his generation, and I dare say quite a bit less. (I wonder how our children and grandchildren will smile as they jack into the world-web and we shudder at the thought of allowing any Microsoft products into their heads.)

The Internet is an unbelievably vast and powerful medium. Anyone can "publish" there, and with the right meta-tags, it can be delivered to the screen of anyone searching for just that brand of information.

Geography is irrelevant. "Publishing costs" are irrelevant. Sanity and intelligence are irrelevant. (As annoying and limiting modern publishing media (by which I refer to real-world paper or video forms) may be, they allow for some control and fact checking. Generally, the quicker information gets to print, the fewer people have seen it, and the less reliable as a whole that particular medium is.) The Internet is instantaneous. If you have a known site, or page - the moment it is modified the information is available for access anywhere in the world.

This is a great use for thoughtful, caring and compassionate people. They can bond together in virtual micro-communities, sharing a single, equal passion for whatever bit of minutia occupies them in that place.

It is also a haven for the emotionally stunted, the terminally adolescent, and the generally mean folk of the universe. (This is one of my reasons for a "handle". My name is unusual, there are only five households in the country with it. One is mine and the other four are related.) The e-mail address I give is valid, but it is one I will not hesitate to abandon if it gets filled with junk mail or more malicious beasts. (If you think I'm over-reacting, just glance over at alt.fan.ellison for a refresher.) These are people who revel in the anonymity the Internet provides, and they use it to be low-grade, mean-spirited bastards. I find their behavior repulsive, and I find myself nodding each time I listen to Harlan wishing for an Uzi. But those people are merely pathetic, and can be ignored with little or no consequence. (Come on, how important is the "Great And Powerful Bill Palmer, Genius" to this little marble anyway...) But there are more serious dangers.

The Internet also allows brain-addled, putrescent piles of human debris to gather and compare notes. Where once they may have rotted in their own juices, blissfully unaware that any other steaming heaps of offal existed, today they have forums and venues of communication. Today they are empowered. If you don't know what the acronym NAMBLA stands for, be grateful, and understand it is one of those nasty little groups. Where once they may have blundered along - making mistakes and getting punished, today they learn from each other. Evil is getting far more crafty and good oughta be very, very careful - or it's gonna get its collective butt kicked.

The Internet comes with an equal measure of freedom and personal responsibility. (I don't know if you've been keepin' track, but as a species, and for the most part as individuals, we ain't incredibly responsible.) I suspect that until we bootstrap to a higher level of personal responsibility, Harlan will continue to dislike the Internet, and for the most part, so will I.

Just to explain my personal bias - I find surfing the web to be a fun, yet utterly time-wasting experience. But I do find nuggets of useful information out there, so I keep doing it. But, with very, very few exceptions, I disregard all forms of chat - IRC, newsgroups, Hotline, ICQ. etc. I have found interacting with most of the meanness out there depresses me. I enjoy lurking on this board, and may pop up more often from now on, with your kind permission, of course...

Good article at the CNN site on "Science Fiction" which debates the field as being either "genre" or "marketplace." The author claims that science fiction writers are greatly harmed by this "SF label" or "mark of Cain" which prevents them from being taken seriously. He argues that writers such as Philip K. Dick, Thomas M. Disch, Octavia Butler, Samuel R. Delaney (and even the well-endowed Harlan Ellison) have been relegated to obscurity outside of the science fiction "stream" when they rightly should be considered major voices in 20th century literature. Check it out at http://cnn.com/books/news/9905/26/salon.scifi/index.html.

Hey OTTO - It's too bad that you missed PI. I thought that HE's penis response to Maher's inquiry into matters that were none of his, ours, or anybody else's was absolutely the perfect come back and laughed myself silly.

The problem that I have with PI, is that if the show is any good, I always want to talk back. So, ok, the show was interesting, it's after midnight and I have to be up at 4:30a, so I took notes. The motivating factor in dragging myself out of bed yesterday was getting to work early so that I could post all of my insightful and pithy (well of course they were insightful and pithy. Me? I never ramble on. Never. Really) comments.

The server's down.

By the time I finally get back on line, everybody has pretty much said every thing I wanted to say, and my last post - done in a two minute rush to catch the bus - is so mangled, I'm not even sure what point I was trying to make!

So, I do have one thing I would like to say - there seem to be a lot of opinions that the internet exacerbates the problem of people who don't think critically (a skill I acquired from reading The Glass Teat, among others), people who are nutcases, etc. I disagree. I think that the internet merely brings these people out into the glaring light of day and this is why - When I first moved to MN, I worked part time for a company that was in the business of making legal copies. This is one of the most tedious and mind numbingly boring things a person can do for money. I worked nights with a woman in her mid-twenties, who was pregnant. She and her husband had two other children, and in the course of our long shifts, she told me that she intended to work right up until the baby was born. This job is one where you have to be on your feet. By the time she hit the 8th month, her feet were always so swollen that I was amazed she could even stand, let alone travel to and from a bus stop. She was clearly in misery. I asked her one night why she put herself through it - she was still a few weeks out from her due date - she told me that she was working to save money to be sure that her kids would go to private Catholic schools. I knew that she wasn't Catholic, so I asked her if the reason was because she felt that they would get a better education in those schools. She told me no, the reason that she wanted her kids to go to Catholic school was that she didn't want them to be offered drugs. I just looked at her and then asked her what made her think that public school in MN would be so awful. She told me that she read a study somewhere that said that 99% of all children will be offered drugs by the time they are in 2nd grade. Now this rather surprised me, as this area, especially the area where this woman and her family had their house, is very nice. There wasn't a gang problem here at that time, etc (this is 10 years ago). So, I asked her where she saw the article at. She couldn't remember. I asked her where the study was performed. She said that she didn't know, but that it didn't make any difference anyway! I was stunned. Really. I had always assumed that the world was full of rational people, with irrational, un-critical thinkers, the exception, rather than the rule. When I explained to her that where the study was performed, as well as who and why they were performing it made a lot difference, she got very angry with me. Yelled at me. Told me to stop twisting her words around. She was so upset, that she complained to the boss, and I ended up losing that job (doesn't that just fulfill the HE quote about innocently pissing somebody off?).

I realize now that the world is full of people who believe things because it's in the paper, on TV, in a magazine. Hell, I know people who believe all kinds of things from tabloids, and people so unquestioning, that it never crosses their minds to question an email purporting that, for every time it is forwarded, the American Cancer Association, will donate money to breast cancer research!

It's a scary world out there, full of scary people who don't think, don't reason, and don't want to. I think that the internet, and all such powerful new technology needs to be questioned, but I don't really think that the internet is making more of these people, or making them worse. They've been with us since the beginning. They worshipped mountains and clouds and went on crusades and everything else. I hope, with all of my heart, that the internet will give us the power to show these people for the idiots they are.

Well, out into the bright sunshine to await my coach. Happy belated birthday, Harlan, and many more.

OK, so I have a hot key set up to check on all of the "Ellison" items on e-bay. So, of course, along with all of the Ellisonalia [it's a word - trust me] I get stuff having to do with Ralph Ellison, Purvis Ellison, Ellison Ozuka (the Astronaut), etc.
BUT, I also get oddball stuff like "antique photo of 1st Ellison lift" which was apparently a device used to haul men up and down mine shafts. But this one takes the cake -
" A metal advertising thermometer which measures approx. 7.0 in. high and 2.5 in. wide. It is in mint condition in the original box. The thermometer advertises Ellison Funeral Home in Jellico,Tenn. It reads Air Conditioned Modern Chapel,and the phone #. There is no area code and no zip code. I am dating this to the 1960's or earlier. It has the hanging hooks intact and has never been used."
A MUST HAVE ITEM FOR ELLISON COMPLETISTS! But seriously, what the hell kind of giveaway is this? "Thanks for letting us plant your relative - have a thermometer to remember us by!" Well I thought it was weird.
In other news, I finally obtained the beautiful Aphelion Press signed HC lmtd. edition of Terry Dowling's "Wormwood" with an introduction by our local hero. I'd tell you what it's about but I can't read it because it's in Australian.
Now go outside and catch some rays!

Shane - I think it was the comic on-line as well. The give-away was that HE said he was paid $6k, which I believe is his going rate for a short story (which he mentioned on Tom Snyder not long ago)

Thanks all for the bouying up and the thoughtful, intelligent responses (especially Philip. Damn, that's some good stuff). I take my support system wherever I can get it. Normally, I wouldn't have done this (I don't think), but a very good friend of mine thought he had the obligation to tell me that my dad was a moron and so I was just kinda grasping for a line.

Having said that, I'd like you to know that I hate you all. I've been standing here in the public library, getting weird looks and total avoidance from all comers as I snigger helplessly over the "penii" comments (penises? One blouse, two blice? One sheriff, two sheriffim?) and hoping that nobody tries to see what's making me laugh so hard. Just call me immature. Do you know what this is gonna cost me in respect from my coworkers alone?

Thanks again. Oh, and I'll jump on two different bandwagons -- the one for birthday congrats, and the one involving smacking the forehead with the open palm and saying, "Stupid! I forgot about PI on Wednesday!"

Shane - I believe there's a set of online comics, set in the world of 'The Matrix'. HE was likely involved with one of them. Check the movie website for more info.

Mitch

Both here and on Politically Incorrect, Harlan mentioned working on THE MATRIX. Does anyone know if he is referring to the film sequel or to the comic series?

I haven't been here for about two years. Before I say anything, though, I want to type up this quote just to see what it looks like:

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with the basic tenets of Christianity..." ---Harlan Ellison

Normally I don't go anywhere near the Internet, and participating in discussion groups and bulletin boards usually involves having to eventually justify myself to idiots, and I can't think of anything that is more a waste of my life energy than that. It's depressing.

But any discussion, on the Internet or otherwise, that has HARLAN saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the basic tenets of Christianity, is certainly worth taking a look at...

So here I am. (And the crowd goes wild!)

I'll try to keep my commentary brief, for two reasons: (1) Just sitting here clicking this mouse, I can feel my brain cells starting to atrophy. No matter what I've done while on-line, I always walk away feeling like I've done nothing. I like to keep these visits to a minimum. (2) I'm pretty close to brain-dead to begin with (it's that time of the year). About a week ago I finally ploughed under two undergraduate degrees (a.k.a. justifying yourself to idiots/with idiots), and I'm really, really, really tired right now (and only $35,000 in debt). I begin my Masters in September, but presently my brain needs a vacation. I'm running on fumes here and at the moment I don't want to think about anything too deeply. Which brings us to something PETER said...

"Unfortunately, too many people believe that faith is an excuse to turn off their brain... The fact is, people act before they think, or they choose not to think at all."

Of course people act before they think! It stems from the simple fact that most people don't like having to THINK ABOUT LIFE. Who the hell wants to do that? So instead of having to actually take responsibility themselves, they cling to institutions. ("God" is the biggest institution of them all. Some times you just want to give these people a smack, don't you? The best of the best is this classic: "I didn't choose. I was chosen." Aw, that's just PERFECT. To hell with being intelligent and reasonable. Screw responsibility. It's the perfect cop-out. "God's the one who says homosexuals should be killed!" CHRIS was also referring to this. It's a challenge just to look these people in the eye when you're talking to them. The challenge is, WHY BOTHER?)

The wise and wonderful Utah Philips once said that any and all institutions are prisons. I love that definition, but institutions also serve as refuges for the incompetent. This is true for educational institutions---don't get me started on "institutions of higher learning" (higher learning, my ass)---the institution of marriage, religious institutions---you name it. Put "institution" in front of it, and it's a refuge for incompetence. For people who don't want to have to think about anything or take responsibility for the fact that they are alive and that their existence has an effect on the lives of others. These are people who REALLY don't know what to do with themselves; they have free will and they can't handle it. Thank gawd for institutions. At least it keeps these people off the streets.

Or at least most of the time it keeps them off the streets. I'm talking about STUPID people here. People like the assholes OTTO was talking about ("Death threats, promises of eternal damnation, etc."). Okay, so sometimes they go a little too far, but you have to remember, again, these are REALLY stupid people. I think HARLAN said something about this in his intro to EDGEWORKS 4, maybe 5; something like...

"Unless you choose to be as bland and invisible as Caspar Milquetoast, there's no way you can get through The Game without pissing off someone, without incurring the wrath of some casual acquaintance, usually through the most innocent of misunderstandings. It can't be done... Because the world is full of assholes."

Having incurred the wrath more than once myself, I recognize in that wrath SOMETHING MISSING. I think HARLAN and I might be talking about the same assholes. (Maybe not, though; I don't have the book with me at the moment and I don't recall the exact context of HARLAN's statement. So don't sue me for defamation on this one; correct me later and I'll be happy to be corrected. Anyhow...)

Now take that SOMETHING MISSING and multiply it about a 1000, and you end up with people like these nuts OTTO was talking about. These are the assholes who misunderstand everything, born and bred to misunderstand. Mommy and Daddy just didn't teach 'em right, and they haven't got the grey matter to figure things out for themselves. So they turn to something else besides their own intelligence---and that is THEE WORST THING anyone could do. If there's evil in the world, this is where it starts. So ya gotta feel sorry for 'em. What else can you do? HARLAN once said something (way up high on the pulpit) which might shed a little light on some of this:

"Those we call 'phonies' may not, in fact, be phonies at all. They may merely be poor suckers who don't know who they are."

("A Rare Kindly Thought," from the HORNBOOK.)

Turn to Star Trek. That's the answer. Come after me with a knife because I laughed all the way through TITANIC and the latest STAR WARS instalment. ("Getting hit over the head with Jesus" is hilarious, not some reason to threaten someone's family. STARS WARS is "getting hit over the head with Jesus" too, big time. But that's too obvious, isn't it. Anyhow...)

I have people walk into my house who notice all these "book things" covering one wall. Some of them actually notice one section where all the books are by the same guy, and they might ask me, "Who's HARLAN ELLISON?" (The first one who, in recognition, says, "HARLAN ELLISON!", I promise, will get a kiss on the lips.) At which time I usually give 'em a good look, and if I think I'm talking to an intelligent person, I'll say a few things about HARLAN. Otherwise, I get the same kind of feeling Louis Armstrong probably had when somebody asked him once, "What's Jazz?" Louis must have given this person one of my looks and then said, "If you gotta ask, you'll never know." Some people just never get it. Got it?

Check out any "institution," and you can't miss 'em. HARLAN said:

"Anything ever conceived by the human mind, no matter how useful or uplifting the original purpose, can be corrupted and overused and misused by that same human mind... INSTITUTE

And thus ends today lesson on INSTITUTIONS and ASSHOLES. I didn't get around to saying what I really wanted to say (isn't that always the case?), and I'm sorry about that. I've been sitting here writing this for longer that I'd planned, and I don't feel like I've written anything---that's what I hate about writing emails and writing on bulletin boards. The words aren't on paper; they don't seem real to me. In the end I probably didn't say much of anything. But at least I'm semi-engaged by the discussion, which is more than I can say for what I usually see when actually bother to log on.

Somebody once said that the most abundant element in the universe next hydrogen is stupidity. I'd call that an accurate observation. That might seem like an elitist comment, but it's not. It's an intelligent observation. It's an important observation. And a good place to start.

And now I know exactly what I wanted to say right from the start. But frig it; I've been staring at this screen and listening to the wizz of this computer for too long. This ain't healthy. (If you've been listening carefully, you can probably fill in the blanks anyway.) So...

Last words go out to HARLAN, if he's still out there... Some things stay with you for a long time; they influence your speech and find a place in your consciousness. They endear themselves to you...

"Dismal as a Bloodhound, old Talbot seemed to mourn over me across the cluttered counter of his little shop. His was one of those faces in which extremes meet; tragedy, having gone full circle, overdoes itself, makes a caricature of itself, and becomes ridiculous."

(Gerald Kersh, "Nothing Succeeds Like Failure," from THE HOSPITALITY OF MISS TOLLIVER, page 124.)

I LOVE that opening. That's about as good as it gets. I've only read the story twice, but I've read those two sentences about 50 times. So thanks again for mentioning this Kersh fella, HARLAN. It's done me good. (I could give similar examples using some of your words, too, but, ya know; too many people watching right now.)

I'm off to Nova Scotia. Vacation time. That's it. See you in another two years, maybe. So long. And thanks for all the fish.

I'm still in awe of the fact that Harlan had an exchange going on here in the net while simultaneously, though perhaps facetiously, portraying the anti-web Luddite for the TV audience. Interestingly enough, the pro-net counter-arguments seemed to revolve primarily around the probability of finding previously unavailable literary works. Nevertheless, the question remains as to whether humanity, with its ever-present penchant for shortsightedness, is truly ready to come face-to-face with the incomprehensible glory of the naked mass-mind.

*** Jim *** The lump was Henry Rollins. While it looked like he was having an off night, I think it's safe to say that Penn was making most of Henry Rollins arguments for him. Actually, anybody who enjoys an evening of Harlan talking about the looniness of being a public figure would probably enjoy Rollins spoken word material. "The Boxed Life" and "Get In the Van" are quite good. Tom Waits said he liked "Pissing In the Gene Pool" and that's not bad company either. Actually, Harlan in his thirties and early forties had more than a few things in common with Henry Rollins. I think anybody with a passing familiarity with the works of Rollins, Harlan, and the late Bill Hicks are pretty well prepared to deal with everything that's f*ck*d up in this culture we are immersed in. And although Harlan would HATE them, Black Flag was a GREAT band. All we need now is Harlan and Jello Biafra on a panel with Tipper Gore and G. Gordon Liddy. More Horrors - more horrors!

Wow Finder! Abcessed tooth? GREAT excuse! I only have "bike broke down on Freeway".. *sigh* Yeah, I know, it shouldn't have taken me so long to push it to a lighted area, and fix it.. But, ummm, my tooth hurt (along with everything else from the pushing) - does that count? It took me a while to figure out that "Penn" is the big talking half of Penn & Teller.. I suppose it all woulda been wasted on me anyway..

On "local business" - it aint just bookstores, folks. The yardgood stores are history with the Five & Dime's. The local Hardware store that fixed your screens, and sold that widget for the old furnace, is gone. The Service Stations with bays to fix cars are gone. Movies are "complexes" now, 4-8 movies at a time in tiny little viewing rooms . Heck - even the local computer retailers are going out of business. Only Asian and African Restaurants and "Dollar Stores" seem to be opening as new local businesses (Bless the Immigrants driven to succeed). I'm not exactly sure if the 'One-Stop Convenient Shopping For All Your (fill in blank) Needs" tide *can* be stemmed. People seem to prefer Malls/Strip Malls, with their easy In/Out, and familiar uniformity of layout and products. Yeah, I think it sucks, too.

There seems to be an american cultural shift in progress,which prioritizes "productivity" - which, as far as I can tell, means getting the best for the cheapest the fastest, even if there isn't enough time to tell if it *is* the best, and human interactions are subordinated to it.. I've noticed socializing is a LOT more formal than it ever used to be. Hardly anyone "hangs out" any more - they go to club meetings, and schedule social time in advance. Kids still like to hang out(but most places these days have ordinances prohibitting them from doing that anywhere they might be seen) and adults who just "hang out" are pretty much viewed as deviant.. It's like the social "glue" dried up and disappeared. Coffee shops, bookstores, music shops - places where people used to "hang out", socialize, and meet people are all disappearing.

Sorry about the rant.. Probably due to spending 3 hours on the shoulder of a Freeway trying to fix my bike in the dark, and having only 2 people stop to offer aid. The first guy pulled over in his Explorer, rolled his window down 2", and offered to call the police on his cell phone - if I would give him $2.. I'll kick his butt in Hell if I see him there.. The second one was a biker, who helped me wrench.. *sigh* I wonder how long before even that brotherhood breaks down..

Rick - I second Keegans motion for a not-so-on-topic place..

Harlan - Happy Birthday! Geez - you don't look that old.. Maybe it's because your missing member was the source of the aging enzyme..

HEY! DONT LOP THAT OFF, you Twit!! Harlan was JOKING.. I am JOKING.. It won't *really* keep you from agin.. Too Late.. Oh well, the gene pool is probably a better place now.. Dang wannabe's and copy-cats..

I hafta to ask about PI: What was the tattooed lump in the chair next to Harlan? Did he speak, Ever? (I was...busy and, er, distracted) Until next time. . .

Book Buying - I echo some of the comments made. However, the net has only added to the way I purchase books, it has not supplanted it. I still buy the new/small press from Mark Ziesing. He gets books that Amazon and B&N can't. (Even the brick & mortar B&N). I'll never buy from Amazon again b/c they shrink-wrap their books and inevitably the book arrives damaged. I've complained, but on deaf ears. I still visit the local used book store every couple weeks and usually pick up some great items (Mrs. Haslam's store, for those who are into used book stores-she presents a national award each year in her name, if I'm not mistaken). The best part of the net is ABE, Interloc, & Bibiofind. This is a good forum for the used bookstore b/c it ties 'em all together with their inventory and we can sit back, click away, and build our library, and yet support the small bookstore owner. Anyway, just some thoughts...Charlie

Chris - I can certainly understand your point; spending as much time as I do looking for things, the lure of simply sending a little data over the wire and boom-bam-pow having my goods arrive on my doorstep is a big, sparkling one. But at the heart of the issue is the arguement of big business versus the little guy. It isn't right that the corner bookstore should be penalized because it doesn't have the square footage or customer base to buy in bulk, or because special orders placed through them may take two or three weeks to arrive as opposed to 48 hours. Sure, the discount is great - but the acceptance that "yes, a lot of bookstores will go out of business" sounds a little cavalier when a local store is concerned with individuals making ends meet and an outfit like Amazon or Barnes & Noble has a bottom line driven by the quarterly market share and the stock dividend. I'm glad that you do still do business with the local stores - but as Maura mentioned, you can deal with locals on line too. Just today, there were 109 copies of "I Am Legend" for sale via the booksellers at ABE. I've used several in hunting for books, none of whom have ever sold me a lemon. And these are people you deal with, people who are in the business more because they like books (because there are no fortunes to be made running an independent book store) than to realize a comfortable margin.
I know it all boils down to a personal preference, but for all the years I've spent in various small stores from New York to Houston and everywhere in between, and for all the stores I loved that are already gone, I think it's an unsung tragedy that electronic juggernauts are so easily allowed to roll over the cozy confines of narrow, crowded shelves and the storekeeper who's willing to go in the back and see if they have that book in the storeroom (and who will order it if they don't).

Yes, between HE and Penn, was great to see Bill Maher unable to get a word in edgewise. Too bad the only woman on the panel sounded like a dope.

HE--thanks for your defense of independent booksellers and writers' interests, a case that doesn't make it onto tv screens very often. But do you really think the internet is the source of the problem? As I see it, corporations monopolize/colonize whatever airwaves (radio waves, tv waves, internet waves, etc) they can -- and Barnes & Noble and amazon.com are doing just that. It's them we have to fight against, not the internet. As it exists, the web is an amazingly democratic free-for-all that, by its form, has a lot of potential to counter monopolistic and homogenized ideas. Just look at how many dissenting and alternative sites are here -- even the LA Freep which published your Glass Teat columns (my personal faves of your work, if I have to pick among many) has been reborn on the web. I would hate to see regulation lead to greater corporate control, as it has with tv and to a lesser extent, radio.

As always, people have to make informed, critical choices with regard to what they read and how they buy books. Buy 'em from your local independent to help preserve and foster diversity of ideas, not the chainstores who are only in it for the $$. Or try www.abebooks.com or www.bibliofind.com, which are wonderful resources for buying from independent bookstores via the net.

Ok, enough ranting. All I really wanted to say is happy 65th, and many more to come!

Harlan,

Happy Birthday! May you continue to walk the planet for many years to come. All the best.

Without trying to refute any of Harlan's claims directly (I do not believe I am well-armed enough to engage in a battle of wits with Mr. E), I did just want to say that I think the Internet has been a tremendous boon to the book industry.

Sure there are changes underway. And, yes, a lot of bookstores will go out of business. But I also think that anyone who has Internet access now also has access to a far wider selection of books than they ever had before.

I have always spent a large percentage of my discretionary income on books. But that percentage has actually increased dramatically since the advent of Amazon.com. Quite simply, I can get just about anything darn thing I want there and I take full advantage of that. I'd say my book buying has at least doubled, if not more, due to Amazon.com.

Last year I cast about for a copy of Richard Matheson's _I Am Legend_ but none was to be found in any local bookstore. Ditto for copies of ANY Hunter Thompson book. I've ordered lots of Dc Archives books from Amazon too - volumes the local comic book store didn't have and I got them at a 30% discount.

I was able to order several James Randi books online that I couldn't find around here. A few tougher-to-find Carl Sagan books. Well, the list goes on.

I still shop at local bookstores too but the Net has been a big plus for this devoted book buyer.

-chris

I'm with Harlan. Good grief, somebody actually has to *ask* if he really doesn't have a penis?? Get REAL.

Second, totally with ya Keegan. I'd love to see a couple BB divisions - literary and/or other media, personal, maybe a board just for Harlan (he keeps saying he's leaving but keeps showing back up....) which only gets his attention on occasion..

Enjoy the family reunion. The closest I've had to one is when I went back east for my Grandma's funeral. Sad how it takes that to get so many families - esp. those spread out like ours - together. (how's that for sap?)

Peg

On a personal, non-topical note, a good Memorial Day weekend to all of you and safe travel if you're traveling.

My family is visiting the extended family in Maine for the first time since my grandfather died. We'll be doing all that is traditional: cleaning the family gravesites, placing flowers, etc. It will be the first time I will see where my grandfather, my hero, is buried.

We'll also be chowing down on good DownEast food. Having a party for my brother who is striking off to find his fortune as a chemical engineer in California on Tuesday.

So we remember the dead and celebrate the living.

Rick, any possibility this site will evolve to include a forum for the more personal, general shout-out-to-yer-homies type message (like this one. Boy, do I feel like a sap!)? Not trying to rush you if you're already considering it. Email me if you'd rather. Thanks.

Well, brand my forehead with the big, flaming "L" - I reminded myself for two weeks about Politically Incorrect, except for yesterday - when I SHOULD have reminded myself. Jeez, one little dental abscess and I go all to pieces...thanks for tidbits, all.

I saw Politically Correct last night. Very interesting. As expected, Harlan Ellison is the sole voice crying "BEWARE" in a multitude of Net! lemmings, all too eager to waltz over the virtual precipice. The show opened quickly as Harlan and Penn Jillette clashed like charging rams, each championing their own cause in this intellectual mating ground. The other two guests (Cindy Margolis and Henry Rollins) tried to hold their own, but neither could brave the dealdy arena of wordcraft that the writer/comedian duo created. Words flew like daggers and in the end, the only thing left standing was Harland Ellison . . . sans penis.
The transcript is available for your perusal. http://abc.go.com/pi/forum/xscripts/19990526.html

Ha! Ha!

I saw the show. Man, Penn was hittin' hard last night. I thought Harlan held his own.

The young, pretty woman didn't seem to understand the concept of having an ISP and just throwing any crap you wanted on the Web. I didn't understand what she was saying about having to go through some sort of a process to post web pages. My husband said she was talking about registering a domain name. Somebody want to email me and explain what THAT was all about? I say the chick didn't have a clue what she was talking about. If I'm wrong, please correct me by email and waste no more bandwith on it here.

I basically think that what Harlan said about the Internet (and guns, and religion etc.) here on Webderland a while back is the bare bones truth. Human beings can take any creative hip thing they are able to do or produce and twist it so as to be a complete drag and/or a cryin' shame.

I admired Harlan fighting for the good ol' BOOK as a form of entertainment and the good ol' local BOOKSTORE as the place to purchase said entertainment.

It was a fun show to watch. Worth staying up late for and a nice way to chill out after a burnin' night at the Club.

Harlan, if you're ever in the Syracuse, Binghamton central NY area: Will you come sing with me? I hear you're good!

Glad you're survivin' and keeping busy.

Oh, fer pity's sake, youse guys! It ain't A Life some of you need to get, and definitely not a Sense of Humor, since everything has a sense of humor--dogs'n'cats, paramecium, even Trent Lott--no, what you need is some WIT.

I shouldn't even be replying to someone who caught the last three minutes of "Politically Incorrect" and then makes a blinding leap of non sequitur, but for those who need their brainpans Martinized . . . I was jesting, fer chrissakes. It was an idiot discussion at that point, and I was getting weary of trying to keep up with Penn ... and so I just dropped into the pottage that I had no penis. It was worth the price of admission just to see Maher's face.

But for those who may need reassurance, heaven knows why, I do indeed still have my member. Wee and shriveled and colored puce, but it's there.

Ask Susan. She's the one who has to wash and dry it in the Maytag every day. Shrinkage inevitable. Cheerily, --he

SUSAN - if you can get Notepad going (should be accessible by clicking Start then Programs then Accessories then Notepad), Harlan can type what he needs in there. You then click on "Select All" from the Edit menu and then "Copy" from the Edit Menu. Then go to the web browser and click in the "Your comments" box and click on "Paste" from the web browser menu. Bingo! If you want to use the keyboard, you can press ALT-E then A to select all text, CTRL-C to copy, then CTRL-V to paste it into the web browser. I'd be happy to walk you through it sometime, you know where to get me. This is pretty good advice for ANYONE who has a long post to make and doesn't trust their net connection, I use it myself sometimes. I'd also recommend just making several directed posts here instead of one massive post, it's your site so no one is going to complain!

EVERYONE - While I have not personally verified this, I and Occam are both fairly certain that Harlan was being impish and facetious when he claimed to have no penis on POLITICALLY INCORRECT. The subject of penii has come up before in conversation (you don't want to know) and he has claimed to have one. The first thing my wife said was "Oh man you know they're going to be asking about that on the website". Coming soon to an urban legend near you.

HARLAN - Ordinarily I frown upon congratulating someone for merely surviving another year but knowing you I don't hesitate to do so. Happy Birthday.

HARLAN: Happy 65th and many more,
Shane

JOEY: Just a stab in the dark here, but I believe what Ellison meant by his comment is: He. has. no. penis. Zip. niemals. nada. Like them G.I. Joe action figures and such. Cool, huh? (To be serious for a moment. I recently read in "Discover" magazine about a gentleman in Skidmore, TX., who also underwent this phenomenon as he neared the age of sixty-five -- technically termed, in the article, phallusnomorus -- the physician interviewed for the magazine, Dr. Richard Long, advised that such a condition often comes about as the result of too much use of an organ during one lifetime). Anyway I...uh, excuse me folks, I gotta run to the bathroom to check on something. Out here, DTS.

I saw the last five minutes of Politically Incorrect last night on TV. Harlan was a guest. He made the cryptic comment that he had no penis. Bill Maher made a wisecrack and then the show was over.

Does anyone know what Harlan meant?

Whoops, TYPO ALERT. That should read, "a name I hope..." Sorry: clumsy fingers at 5:55 AM. -- Billy D.

This is a non-Ellison-related post, but I just wanted to recommend a short story in this June's Asimov's called "Written in Blood" by Chris Lawson--a name a hope we hear a lot more in coming years. At only ten pages, it represents what to me is the best feature of science fiction: character-driven stories and how technology affects the people in them in very personal ways, faith, family and future. And talk about fresh, when was the last time you read science fiction about Austrailian Muslims? -- Billy D.

Ms. Lilith in Erie, Pennsylvania:

I lived at 89 Harmon Drive, one block from Lathrop. Harmon and Lincoln diverged half a block up from Mentor Avenue, and ran parallel for one block, to Jackson Street. Lathrop was about two minutes from my house, and I absolutely know where Hartshorn was. And, yes, it was a depressing little town. Synchronicity strikes, though. The first little girl I ever had a date with, Jeannie Bittner, who has remained my friend for about fifty-five years since we both attended Lathrop, actually came to visit last week, with her longtime husband, Bob. Her married name, of course, isn't Bittner, but in deference to her privacy, I'll not pass on the new moniker. --he

Thanks Barney for the advice. Will try to find the appropriate key thingees for Notepad etc.

Now for some last chance HELP! Recently, a HERC (The Harlan Ellison Recording Collection) member (I think) ordered $21.00 worth of books and other related items from us. As usual, the check goes in for deposit, and in this case, the envelope was thrown away because the Post office had dropped something unnamed, yet icky, on it. When I went to put the order together, I noticed the person had not filled in the NAME AND ADDRESS part. NOTHING, NOT EVEN A MEMBERSHIP NUMBER. my question is: Did anyone here send me a check for $21.00 for some cool Ellison stuff and not get anything. If so, just let me know via the post office box what it was (for comparison) and I'll happily send you your order. Thanks. --Susan.

HE said he was outta here, but what the heck.

Happy Birthday and Congrats on reaching 65, hope you're around for a whole lot more. If you're ever in my neck of the ice fields, or I'm in your neck of the concrete jungle, I'll buy ya a decent cuppa joe and we can discuss the merits of Arabian Mocha Sanani and Sulawesi, Sumatra and Kenya AA (the good kind, that is), and wax philosophic on the morality of using additives.

Cheers to you & Susan..... Peg

he-THANK YOU for giving a response to our querys a second chance. Barney offers a good suggestion should you desire to visit again-this is your home, after all. Thanks for the PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES info-keeping the fingers crossed on the movie and the coffeetable book sounds excellent. Speaking of Connie Willis, she edited the latest Nebula Awards 33 volume, and she speaks highly of that first volume, which included a story of a guy that likes jelly beans. HAPPY BIRTHDAY. Charlie (the attorney in FLA that buys books from you every so often)

Aw! Guess my post was lost. I wanted to know where Harlan lived in Painesville. I grew up there from '79 to '86 and lived on Hartshorn, which is off of Mentor Ave. Lathorp's just across off Jackson St, and I think he went there, but I'm not for sure. Whew! God awful little place. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Wow, Harlan is on the internet, what next? A first lady will become Senator in Ny??(grin) I can hear his immortal bones creak when he bangs on those new fangled plastic keys. Sorry for ribbing you Harlan, its been a while since Ive seen any form of non-fiction from You. Harlan ranting has allways been his strong suit actually. Politically Incorrect should be interesting. I suggested Henry Rollins and He on the same panal once, hmmm..Maybe they do listen. Since Harlan isnt the biggest punk fan I wonder if any sparks will fly. Id like to send Harlan some free tapes if I could get a mailing address that would reach him

For now keep those tendrals away from that online porn Ellison!! I heard it causes anal warts..Peace.

*** Harlan *** There is a reason AOL gives out free time in month long and 100 hour increments. Free is about what they're worth. Have JMS or somebody hook you up with a good cheap local ISP [oops - internet service provider]. My other word of advice while you are in the 1st circle of AO helL is have Susan show you where Notepad or Word is on your PC. You can type in your responses at length without worrying about being interrupted. When a response is to your liking, you copy and paste it into the comments window. This process adds only a couple of mouse clicks or keystrokes to the whole process and AOL can't blow your words into the ether. Added advantage is that if it's really pithy or looks like the springboard for something longer [that pays] you have an expandable backup right on your PC. Word is better for formatting but notepad will do you for this kind of jackpotting.
By the way, I know it's early but HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! No more "terrible infant" bullshit for you, eh? Wish I could be there to see Susan give you that oh so long over due spanking. Hope you get your wish. All my best to you and Susan.

Just a reminder, POLITICALLY INCORRECT- Harlan, Penn Jillette, Cindy Margolis, and Henry Rollins speak about the Internet.

I wonder what Harlan would say about the current production of the film version of Bicentennial Man. Does it seem that they have somehow bypassed the I, Robot script?

NOW DRUNK WITH INTERNET BABBLEPOWER . . .

Peg, many many thanks for the offer. And I may, at some time, take you up on it. The typing ain't no problem--at 120 a minute with these here two digits I am a barn-burner--the problemo is that @#(!M*&!!! AOL cuts me off every five or ten minutes. That's why I've sent the preceding in increments...all the while typing, looking to be shut down. And as my birthday to the point of 65 looms 24-hours large, I don't need no mo paranoia, knowhati'msayin, G?

There were half a dozen other things in the new messages that I wanted to respond to--such as the question about collaborating--sometimes a dance, sometimes thumb-wrestling, sometimes subversion--always fascinating (wait till you see the story I'm doing with Connie Willis)--but I'd have to scroll back to re-read them all, and then take notes, and then sit here typing, always afraid AOL would act capriciously. And I, frankly, don't have the time. Not if youse guys want me to finish that Matrix story, or the Superman REALWORLDS graphic novel. And so, with love to you all, I take my leave. You're on your own. But you know how to reach me, through Rick, if something urgent grabs you by the intellect. All best otherwise and...as I've said before...

Do try and stay outta the line of fire. --he

NOW, THEN . . .

I wanted to get that PHOENIX answer back in, because it was the first answer I gave of the material that was lost. That having been done--and you'll pardon my ignorance in entering the document twice, I haven't a clue what the hell I'm doing here, and Susan has gone off to watch Hingis get her ass kicked at the French tennis thing--I can QUICKLY BRIEFLY MADLY DEEPLY answer what I can remember from the previous messages.

The quote from Montaigne is inspired. As an Atheist, you know where I stand on religion, and if you have any querulousness as regards my position, I offer "The Man Who Rowed Christopher Columbus Ashore" and "The Deathbird"...among any number of others.

But here's the thing...as far as I'm concerned: religion is like knives or the internet or fertilizer. Anything ever conceived by the human mind, no matter how useful or uplifting the original purpose, can be corrupted and overused and misused by that same human mind. We are a demented species. Institute any kind of system--to feed the hungry, to clothe the poor, to even the odds--and some asshole in Oklahoma or Colorado or Los Angeles will warp and twist it to his/her own ends. Much as I despise guns--a knife may be used to kill, but it can also whittle a whistle for a kid, or cut your dinnermeat, or dig out a healthful root or be used to play mumblety-peg--but a gun can only, I say ONLY, be used to hurl a projectile into something...usually a LIVING something, whether it's a high school senior or a kodiak bear. Guns can only be used for killing or plinking...the former we've had enough of, the latter ain't essential. So whatever value guns may have had at their inception, like the internet or fertilizer or a knife, demented humans have cleverly found a way to corrupot that original purpose. Same with religion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the basic tenets of Christianity--though many of them have been so concretized by dogma that we fail to remember that those rules were initiated to keep the sect viable, and may no longer be needed--in the same way that eating bacon no longer has relevence as a no-no for a modern Jew, when kashruth has been compromised by the FDA's interdiction of pigmeat with trichinosis. (I'm wandering. Forgive me.) (Father.) (For I have...) Wheeew, THAT was close!

One of the constants in the human condition, I suppose all the way back to Cro-Magnon, has been the need to have some other species to look down on, to feel superior to. And THAT is what I find repellant in religion, whether Judaism or Christianity or the faith of Islam. Only Taoists and Buddhists (and maybe a couple others) eschew the God is a Loonie Who'll Smite the Crap Outta You if You Don't Believe As I Do nonsense. And religion, thus, provides a steady fodder of non-believers to hate, to excoriate, to look down on and, as this discussion shows...try to intimidate.

I'll send this now. AOL watches, and waits. --he

Great news about the deal! Are you going to be involved with the script modifications or production of the movie?

Hey, gang . . .

Yes, PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES has only appeared in print once--the teleplay version, that is. But what with Columbia Pictures having just bought the rights to my (ahem) award-winning version--NOT the version used on the short-lived idiot tv series--I'll be pressing forward yet again to have a coffeetable book including the script AND Ed Bryant's novelization, plus two absolutely breathtaking James "Dinotopia" Gurney covers, and much ancillary material. It's been under contract several times, but the deals always went south. But with a major big-millions movie in the pipeline, with David (Dark City / Blade) Goyer expanding my script, the chances look better now. We shall see. But until that time (and this is the second time I've written all this, thank you very much AOL), the version included in Jack Dann's anthology FASTER THAN LIGHT is the sole appearance. Lemme send this so AOL doesn't wipe me out. I'll return in a second. --he

Hey, gang . . .

Yes, PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES has only appeared in print once--the teleplay version, that is. But what with Columbia Pictures having just bought the rights to my (ahem) award-winning version--NOT the version used on the short-lived idiot tv series--I'll be pressing forward yet again to have a coffeetable book including the script AND Ed Bryant's novelization, plus two absolutely breathtaking James "Dinotopia" Gurney covers, and much ancillary material. It's been under contract several times, but the deals always went south. But with a major big-millions movie in the pipeline, with David (Dark City / Blade) Goyer expanding my script, the chances look better now. We shall see. But until that time (and this is the second time I've written all this, thank you very much AOL), the version included in Jack Dann's anthology FASTER THAN LIGHT is the sole appearance. Lemme send this so AOL doesn't wipe me out. I'll return in a second. --he

Otto - I was raised Catholic in a small town, and I recall no instances where extreme acts were encouraged against non-Catholics; both clergy and teachers were simply matter-of-fact about it: "good" Catholics get into Heaven; bad Catholics and all else go to Hell. And it was this philosophy that caused my ideological split with Catholicism - I went to college with a large number of Christians who behaved like bastards most of the time; and I lived with a Hindu who was one of the nicest, most mild-mannered and good-natured people you'd ever want to meet - and I couldn't reconcile the church's assertion that the nice guy was S.O.L. while all the bastards needed to do was say they were sorry to get to heaven. Even if the religion doing the preaching is vehement, it still takes an ignorant mind to make the leap from believing 'this is wrong' to the making of threats. Yours is a surreal situation, and I agree with Sue - the people taking potshots at you will quickly find another sound byte to latch onto and make a cause of. But the problem isn't necessarily the result of the religion's fervor, but a number of factors, including overly-heightened sensitivities where you are at ground zero.

Otto - My thoughts are simple. Good people are the ones who take personal responsibility for the consequences of their personal choices and actions. Unfortunately the vast majority of people seem to have a lot of "good reasons" for not being all that good or responsible.

Sorry your family is getting the short end of that sharp and sh*tty stick. *HUG* for each of you.

Hang in there. They'll get bored, and wander off to find fresh meat.

First, here are some simple (almost cliché) guidelines which help me keep things straight when it comes to
- Faith "` church "` organized religion. As for christianity, faith is your personal belief and the church is the body of believers. Organized religion is what man has made of the church and the faith. Unfortunately, the actions of men frequently do not follow the tenants of the faith regardless of their professed beliefs. And the result hasn't been pretty for a large part.
- The squeaky wheel principal applies to the media. Fanatics tend to get the press and, by their very nature, are likely to be the people who go to the effort to make their opinions known either in public or in private. Very few causes escape this.
- Being a certified jerk is totally non-discriminatory. Anyone can qualify regardless of race, creed, sex, religion, etc.

Now, onto addressing Otto's question (and I'm gonna try to stay away from the historical politics of christian activists, persecuting vs. persecuted, and such). The churches I’ve attended -and we’re going back all the way to the catholic upbringing here- have NOT, and I mean emphatically *NOT* encouraged their congregations to be destructive in the manner which you've experienced. Never. Ever. Frankly, any and all teaching I have received in the christian faith says to love your neighbor, even your enemy. And most of the christians I know disapprove of such actions like the death threats, even if they sympathize with the reason behind them. [e.g., you might agree that abortion is wrong, but you don't approve of bombing the clinic]

There is a difference, though, between loving someone, even your enemy, and condoning their actions. I may love someone who has committed a crime, but that doesn't mean I approve of the crime. But christians aren't better than any other folks - we can be just as mean and petty as the rest of humanity. People can be quite talented at condemning someone's actions and forgetting the part about loving the person. That being said, a christian who is passionate about their faith and who wants to evangelize to you out of compassion may feel compelled to warn you of your impending damnation unless you repent. The intent should be to address the actions, not the person, and to remember to love them. But like I said, practicing that is VERY difficult.

To be honest, I think you can substitute just about any organized religion for "christianity" and say the same things. There's no lack of people in the world whose actions do not uphold their professed belief. How we realize/recognize that, and respond to it and the affected people, is almost a better measure.

Wow, that was a lot.
Peg

Otto,

You ask a question that I have thought about a lot. Let me preface my comments by stating that I am an atheist, in case that matters to anyone.

As I see it, religion is a tool. It is a tool which can be used for good in the hands of good people. It is a tool which can be used for evil in the hands of bad people. Because God isn't really there, he can say whatever you want him to in order to justify your own personal beliefs and prejudices. "Hey, it's not me, God's the one who says homosexuals should be killed!" That sort of thing.

I've also known many religious folk who have done a lot of good work through their belief and their church. I will always be thankful to the members of a local church for providing a lot of support for my mom when she was sick. They made her life much richer and her death easier to face.

Let me also share with you a few quotes:

"The vision of Christ that thou dost see is my vision's greatest enemy." (I'm not sure who the source is - maybe William Blake.)

"Everyday people are straying away from the church and going back to God." - Lennie Bruce

"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." - Jonathan Swift

"Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens." - Montaigne

"What has been the effect of religious coercion? To make half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

And, most appropos to this board about a writer who sometimes writes speculative fiction:

"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start a new religion." - L. Ron Hubbard

Adam--I believe the two women from Kersh's "Night and the City" were Zoe and Helen, though I'm less sure about Zoe. I'll have to go back and check it out. Your mention of it has given me an itch to relive it.
In Rabbit Hole #21 I saw mention that there is a song about Harlan on a Jazz Butcher's album. It got me wondering about literary references in music. I'd love it if some people around here could throw me a few nibbles on stuff that they know of. I'll start by mentioning Stuart Hamm(a wonderful bass player who has played with Joe Satriani and Steve Vai), who has an album titled "Radio Free Albemuth" and is a Phil Dick fan, obviously.
Also, if you're into metal, Fear Factory deals with a lot of science fiction themes in their music, most noteably on their latest album "Obsolete" which is a narrative tale about a machine controlled future. Wonderfully effective, if not wholly original, but then again, how many music groups tell stories over the course of an entire album anymore? Makes me yearn for Rush's "2112."

--Steve

Otto, I don't think too many churches go into that kind of behavior, but there are certainly enough to make it seem like they all preach that kind of ignorant hatred. I'm thinking of some of the TVangelical religions and their followers who think that people like Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell are as close to the second coming of christ as we are ever going to get. Unfortunately, too many people believe that faith is an excuse to turn off their brain. This automatic shut down of the cerebral cortex induces an attitude of "love thy neighbor unless he or she doesn't worship the same as you, then hate them with all of the ignorance you can muster." This can be seen in a lot of the protestant religions who still believe and teach to this day that Catholics worship Mary. Having been raised Irish-Catholic, I can tell you, catholics don't worship Mary. They may honor and revere her, but they do not worship her. However, I have seen literture (published recently) which attacks the Catholic religion and instructs the reader to "pray for catholics." Never mind the copies of the Watchtower my dad would collect during paper drives as a kid, which would talk about the catholic conspiracy and how they all had guns in their basements (having lived in Oakland, my father's family had neither guns nor a basement). I've digressed. The fact is, people act before they think, or they choose not to think at all. It is a sad fact, and it is true. The most you can do is be confident in the knowledge that you and your family are good people, that what your father said was not out of spite, or malice, but out of reasoned concern, and that the people who decide to take a quote out of context and attack you with their beliefs are doing nothing but exhibiting their ignorance and their willingness to remain ignorant.

So to sum up, cause otherwise it'd all get lost in the diatribe. There are some rotten apples in the barrel of dogmatic practices. Not all of the are bad, but there are some, and for a lot of people, they reek up the place. Just be confident in yourself, and try not to respond with the same venom you've been getting. Rely on the support of your friends, family, and neighbors who believe in you, and maybe even try and address this issue with a calm and reason which is apparently lacking in the attacks on your family. Otherwise, hang in there, good luck, and I wish your family the best.

---Peter (For someone who hates being preached at, I sure like the soapbox)

Otto - this is really quick - I've got 2 minutes to go catch my bus. The unfortunate thing about any dogma is how often people just take their beliefs as is. They don't think about it. There seems to be an unfortunate tendency away from rational thought. I don't know why. I personally hate the whole take it on faith mindset. I have no problem with religious beliefs as long as they are thought out. Because is a rotten anwer. Always.
Gotta run

Boy, ya drop out of the loop for a week and all hell just breaks loose. I'm sorry I missed the whole questions bit -- sounds like great fun. I'm also sorry about what I'm about to do: Post on something entirely off-topic and personal just because yes, I am JUST that self-centered and just that desperate to bleed all over other people.

If you weren't here before, I live in Littleton Colorado and graduated from Columbine last year. I just got home about a week and a half ago, and started to really deal with what's been happening. One of these things is that Franklin Graham (Billy Graham's son) made a speech at one of the memorial services that was pretty frankly exclusive, directed only towards the comfort of Christians. My Dad's a Lutheran minister. Afterwards, he asked a rabbi friend of his if he felt that he had been "hit over the head with Jesus." A reporter heard him and put it in the paper. BOOM! We're getting hate mail. Death threats, promises of eternal damnation, etc., all sticking up for Graham and God. Some of it's coming to the church, and some (which makes me twitch a bit) is coming to the house.

I know that some of you (hi, Peg. Ya know I love you) consider yourselves Christians, and some would rather be caught doing nasty things with sheep than in church. Lemme ask all of you: how much do you think churches in general or particular make room for or even encourage the kind of venom we've been seeing out here?

I feel likewise about your having to abandon -hopefully, momentarily- your attempts to communicate with us via AOL. We used to use (rather redundant, ain't it?) AOL in our newspaper and totally gave up on it. We now have an in-house e-mail system that seems to be somewhat efficient, and do most of our lurking in the 'Net via Netscape. But if you ever decide to delurk again, here is a question for you: how would you describe your collaboration with other writers (I am thinking here, of course, of your collection "Partners in Wonder" and of your recent work with Neil Gaiman and upcoming stories with other writers)? How much of that process would you describe as a dance? How much of it is like a temporary marriage where each writer, in a way, has to grow used to each other's pet peeves, voice, inflection, nuance, etc.?

Harlan/Susan- Thanks for the attempt. I have the same complaint as an AOL user. At least don't give up on your internet exploration. If you're needing a used book, the net is great. Check out these sites: bibliofind.com, abe.com, mxbf.com. Who knows, you may find that rare Kersh.

Peg - I don't think that's whacko at all.

Damn AOL. Been there, Harlan, done that. Too bad you've gone, for I thought I'd offer the following RE your oft-posed public question about the popularity of Garth Brooks: quite simply, he takes a great joy in making his music, and invites his fans to share in the joy. And beyond that, I'd lay odds there was a Faustian element consummated somewhere in the vicinity of the Grand Ole Opry with a shambling demon in the beguiling form of the late Patsy Cline...can't help with the Hot Pockets, though - they defy all rationality.

Current reads: just finished Neil Gaiman's "Neverwhere" and Elmore Leonard's "Get Shorty"; and I'm about to embark on Dan Simmons' "Carrion Comfort" (let it never be said that posted recommendations are left fallow) and a collection of Damon Runyon short stories. And I'm waiting for Thomas Harris' new one (despite the dumbed-down title "Hannibal" - did I only imagine reading it was going to be titled "The Morbidity Of The Soul"? SIGH. It's a so much more dignified and creepy title...) Sue - I figure Al Gore being a heartbeat away from the oval office is the best insurance policy Bill Clinton could have come up with. Peter - In defense of my major, being an English major doesn't exactly translate into priggish snobbery. Quite the contrary, i think that's the rarer side of the coin, since so many English majors never do much of anything with English afterwards. I can honestly say that it wasn't even all dead nineteenth century poets. There were lots of dead eighteenth and seventeenth century ones, too. What's good for you is the tech skills you have will always be able to provide for the part of you that wants to write, and you like them both enough to pursue both of them well. Peg - These posts just roll right off the top of my head, which actually has more to do with the gentle southerly slope of my skull. (Which reminds me: Kids, just say no to dodge ball!) Alejandro - I believe Mayra Montero's first English translation was titled "In The Palm Of Darkness" or something similar - a friend recommended it, but I can't put my hands on my list at this time to confirm. Barney - you sure do like to juggle with those short-fused sticks o'dynamite, dontcha? Knew a kid in Coxsackie once, had seven of 'em in the air and - nah, y'all don't want to hear that story... Charlie - I believe "Faster Than Light" was the only place the "Phoenix..." script was published. ALL - I enjoyed "The Phantom Menace"; of course, I'm a sucker for eye-candy, so I found the miscellaneous flaws easy to let go. All in all, it was good 'Star Wars', which is all I was asking for anyway.

I don't know if I can possibly stand the frustration of having Harlan be so generous as to volunteer his time and employ a tool and technique he abhors to answer our questions and entertain and enlighten us, just 'cause he a nice guy and thinks we're not quite the sodden-headed, ignorant, flaming flock of net-dweebs typically encountered in the electronic haze, only to have the AOL equivalent of a over-eager self-righteous meter maid kick him off the system and obliterate all the wisdom and levity he offered (not to mention the sacred knowledge of his favorite coffee).

(*breathe*)

But hey, I'm a take action girl. Not always practical but willing to make the effort. So here I have an offer for Harlan and Susan (to save them encounters with electronic monsters and bad guys), for Rick (to give his widdle fingers a break), and for the webderfolk (so this opportunity not be lost). Cause I realize, as Susan put it, Harlan may not be made for this stuff. And cause I just CANNOT give up that easy on one of my only real opporunities for interaction with my favorite author (given my location).

Harlan, stick with your trusty sidekick Olympia (I think that's the correct make) and allow me to serve as the webder' connection, the fun facilitator. Not to suggest you're incapable but it's something that is in obvious distate for you and is nothing but an obstacle to this nice offer you made and which we would all enjoy. Put it on paper, fax it to me, and I'll do the upload. I can promise to spread your word at least once a day 5 days/week (and once the home system is back on it's feet, 7 days a week)

I give you my typist services at your command, my fabulous fast fingers and functioning fax to ensure the laying on cyberspace of some really cool stuff. I may not clock at Harlan's 120, but I do at least 60+ WPM with 95% accuracy with net savvy and access. And, of course, the spirit to serve my friends (finally I can offer something of true value to webderland!).

Whadya say Harlan? If you're willing to give it a go just pass the word. I'll give Rick the appropriate fax/phone contacts to forward to you and we can take it from there.

No hard feelings if you don't - hassle is hassle no matter the tool - but I need to at least make the offer and the effort or I'll feel like a 'puter putz for letting this drop.

Peg

[ya know, some time later, after I've posted this, I'm gonna re-read it and think "Good Grief all those people must think I just completely whacko" or some such.]

Harlan & Susan - guess you didn't get to see my attempt at on-line "helpfulness", cause the malicious cybergremlins ate it.. Maybe that is why the board *really* went down????

If you are being disconnected every 45 minutes, it's most likely the AOL timer - a pain in the rear way they limit how long you stay on-line (cheap smucks and their sneaky tricks). Go to "http://www.tpasoft.com" and click on Terminator in the menu on the left. It's a helpful little program that tells AOL to bugger off and let you do what you want, for as long as you want, on-line. Oh yeah, it's shareware - so it's free for the month you'll be on-line.. And I suggest you NOT use AOL if you intend to get on-line...

Hope it helps.

That's OK, Harlan. First, Independece Day winds up as the top grossing film of the year a while back and then Harlan Ellison starts posting on the web. I was afraid the Apocalypse couldn't be far off now and I still would like to see the next two Star Wars movies, even if Phantom Menace was just OK (though still a pleasant enough diversion.)

You should just call up Rick and have him type up everything you wanted to say. He doesn't have anything better to do. :)

Just to squeeze more info into one post, I wanted to let people know that the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund is conducting a big membership drive right now. If you care about comic books, you might want to check out their site at www.cbldf.org For $25, you can become a supporting member and help to fight censorship!

Rick, I apologize if you don't feel it's appropriate to post a solicitation like that here. I figured that since HE has been duly honored by the CBLDF and is, to the best of my knowledge, an active member, it would be OK for this forum.

And with the big fuss being kicked up about the "culture of violence," I wouldn't be surprised if the CBLDF needs our support more than ever in the near future.

-chris

SORRY ABOUT THIS, FOLKS, BUT . . .

I spent the better part of an hour just now, answering Charlie in St. Pete about PHOENIX WITHOUT ASHES and why Norman Spinrad is having a tough time selling (with a learned sidebar about the dumbing-down of the audience), and replying to Barney's three or four queries about how it was I worked tuna boats off Galveston and treetopping and suchlike, and telling Peg what my favorite coffee is, and congratulating Peter on zooming his finals, and Alejandro on the temporariness of my online largesse, and detailing a lot of information about my comic boiok collection for Chris Long, and explaining to Sue that this was intended only as a sort of small thankyou to the bunch of you because you seem to be nice folks . . .

And AOL knocked me offline, And it was all lost. And I hate this friggin thing. So I'm sorry, but I've got to disappoint you. I tried. But, as Sue (my Susan) says, "You're just not made for this."

She's right. I'm outta here. All best otherwise, --he

*** Harlan *** I would prefer if you did not answer my question #2 with "seemed like a good idea at the time". Besides, we both know that's the correct answer to my other question - "what's the deal with girls?"

*** Rick *** Since someones irthdaybay is coming up Real Oonsay - maybe this would be a good time to stick up a 2nd message board to save a tree or two and keep the board from crashing like you did for the hospital thingee awhile back? What's that you say? Mind my own business? Quit meddling in other peoples websites? Take a long walk off a short pier? Spot on! Quite right there old boy. ;-)
ps. The winking smiley face and other emoticons are not a sign of the apocalypse as some people who shall remain nameless but whose initials are H.A.R.L.A.N. E.L.L.I.S.O.N. would have you believe. They are as useful as ibid / re / ditto and will not kill you deader than dioxins despite what some people would have us think. And now I'm off to serve the common wheel...

I don't know how the hell my post got lost. I posted after everyone had already commented on the board crashing. I'm really confused. All I was asking for was the following info from ANYONE: what are the names of the two women in Kersh's "Night and the City" whom live in the same building and (eventually) work for Nosseross?

Thanks

Funny thing. I saved my last response before I posted it, because I was afraid something would go wrong. The message didn't appear on my display, which seemed to justify my paranoia. Little did I know...Anyway, here's the reply:

Welcome to the board, Susan. Hope you and Harlan enjoy your brief sojourn.
As for what's being read, I just finished Bradbury's 'Martian Chronicles'. It's the first of his books that I've read that covers all the bases, instead of being arranged by theme (compare 'Dandelion Wine' to 'The October Country', for example), and I like the way it all flowed together. I'm now sinking my teeth into 'Nightshades and Damnations', and the word that keeps coming up is 'unnerving', the way Fritz Leiber's 'Our Lady of Darkness' got under my skin and twitched there.

Mitch

sheesh!! Just when things get interesting, CRASH! Well, at least the board didn't choke on my post, though at least one cookie was tossed.. <--(dumb 'puterpun - sorry keegan). Don't worry about it Rick. It's not your fault the B-Board sank under an overload of response to Harlan posting. More like a Natural Disaster, I'd say.. hey! You tried getting some $$ from FEMA for bigger, better computer stuff?? Heck, if they hand out cash to rebuild your home in a flood plain, you should have the check in a week... Might even get Al Gore to deliver it personally - and tell you how he sponsored the legislation that made the Internet possible.. Geez, that guy is scary - a heartbeat away from the Presidency??? Shouldn't an EEG with activity be a requirement?

If it makes you feel any better Peter, I will confirm the accuracy of your memory about HE suggesting you write, due to your obvious abilities and talent.

Ummm - I don't have any questions to ask HE. I'll just stick to reading those Intro's of his - they already tell me a LOT about the guy. I do wonder what sort of odd ruminations and/or speculations Harlan has about other people, that sparked his generous offer to answer our little questions about him..

We're planning to do the Phantom Menace viewing sometime this week - probably Friday - as a whooole family. It's sort of a tradition. We went to the first one as a family unit when the youngest was only 6 months old. Dang! Now he's 22! And we've seen all 3 of the Star Wars movies together in a theater (just about the only time any of us will part with the cash rather than wait for the video). We're not expecting more than good effects, a happy ending, and each others good company. And Peg thinks she is *easy*.. ;-)

Peg, at the risk of sounding conceited, I'm trying to hone as many of my talents as I possibly can. This includes both writing and technical skills. Now, while my passion lies with writing, I still cannot let go of the fact that I can tear apart a computer and have it back together in an hour. I cannot give up the momentary thrill I get from solving a difficult programming problem (such as the spur of the moment manual keyboard-control I designed for a friend's computer controlled robotic arm). Besides, I can also take Norman Mailer's answer on this -- he too got his degree in engineering -- I don't want to spend four years studyng dead nineteenth century poets. Judging from the literary elitism I've encountered here, the LAST thing I want to be is an english major. I went in, found out who I should be reading, and got out again.

---Peter (who Aced the programming final and is now procrastinating on the circuit analysis)

Hey everybody. I just got an email from everybody's favorite college student--besides me, that is. Nicole says "hi" and that she'll be back on da board soon. I knew that there was something missing over the last four months or so. She must have been it.

---Peter

**RICK** As someone who missed all the festivities this weekend, I have a question for you. Did you post any sanity guidelines re: questions for Harlan & Susan? I mean, beyond the normal self-preservation instincts we all have to not ask things like "When is Edgeworks 5 coming out". A person has *got* to realize Harlan ain't gonna be spending all his free time surfing the webderland bulletin board, so there is probably some boundary or limit (although possibly unstated).

BTW - for all you webderfolk, have I mentioned lately how you are one of the most witty crowds around? I mean, it's gosh durn intimidatin' hanging around with you sly, syncopated, synaptic superfolks. Is it natural, or does it take you HOURS to conceive those posts that leave with with giggles up and down my spine. Like Peter's LOL piece. (which makes me realize why I *AM* an engineer and wonder why Peter would want to be?)

S'all....

Sorry, the server crash was my fault. I posted a sappy thanks to HE and the serve obviously got a bad case of sugar-shock.

So I'll just stick to the question for Harlan:

If you're so inclined, would you tell us a little about your comic book collection? What'cha got? How many books? What' your favorite stuff? Any particular gem in the collection you want to brag about? There's a dealer asking $800 for a NM copy of Weird Science-Fantasy #24, is that highway robbery or the bargain of a lifetime?

Oh, what the heck, I'll try again. Thanks for your writing, Harlan. I discovered your work during a very rough period of my life and you helped provide some of the inspiration to get me through those times. So, thank you!

-chris

Ah, the joys of taking one day off. And the dangers of taking one day off. Can someone fill me in? Harlan answering questions on the web? How did this happen? I took Friday off as comp time (you can thank the Cinco de Mayo festivities for my accumulated overtime) to catch up on my reading and on a couple of movies and I missed all the action. Egads, does that mean that Harlan and Susan have finally (gulp!) bought a computer? (And if so, which brand, how much memory? I have just been commissioned by NTC Publishing to do an introductory book on Latin American music which puts me under the obligation of buying one of these dreadful things. Granted, that won't stop me from writing some chapters in shorthand which is my preferred method of writing.)
By the by, folks, wanted to take this opportunity to recommend a book that is just about to be published: The Messenger by Mayra Montero. Mayra is a Cuban writer residing in Puerto Rico who turned to fiction writing full time after a stint as Time's correspondent in Latin America. And in this marvellous novel, she writes about Enrico Caruso's one trip to Cuba in the 1920s, an assassination attempt against him and what happened when Caruso mysteriously disappeared after the attempt. Santeria and opera, eroticism Caribbean-style…what more can I say? This is mayra's second book to be translated into English. Her first one (sorry, forgot the title) was about two botanists who travel to Haiti to find a disappearing species of frog and find…again…black magic, politics and violence.

Barney, the "piss off" to you may have vanished, but so too did the "you got the makings of a very good writer" to me. Even now I am bombarded by a sense of unreality, as if this whole thing were just some twisted fantasy my brain concocted in the midst of my studying for C++ programming and linear circuit analysis. The problem with this is that the blistered trappings of hope that lay within my consciousness are being lanced by the needle thin scalpel of engineering. I am torn apart by my drive to read and write and my drive for decent grades. But then there is the cool girl I met from the mechanical engineering department, so I think to myself, "it's all good." Boy, finals really beat on my brain.

Harlan, again, what are you currently reading?

---Peter (remember that slow, finals induced, descent into insanity? It's back!)

Question for he- Is there an explanation why a fine writer as Norman Spinrad can't find a US publisher for his latest, He Walked Among, for only $1.00 advance? (as he has advertised on his home page). Seems the industry has focused more on media tie-ins (Star Trek/Lost in Space) rather than quality spec. fic. Also, I read that you may be writing a Superman (DC comic) with Peter David. If so, how is the project progressing?

Comments?
I have to enter a comment now? What sort of comment?
A comment on something non-confrontational, like the weather, or on something incendiary like abortion, or how in some states women are actually being denied the right to wear tattered calico house-coats and scuba gear in the corporate workplace? I don't know if I'm ready for this. I mean, what if I say something stupid? What if I say something really great but nobody reads it? What if, while I'm typing out my Comment, a big chunk of the ceiling above me suddenly drops and --

----------transmission terminated------------

Okay, I get to reneg on a previous post. My hubby and I saw the ma dmedia menace on friday. We took a chance on a 1:30 show and got lucky - theater was only about 1/2 full. [point of explanation: there's only 250K - 300K people in Anchorage, and the movie is showing on at least 7 screens around town. You can only pack the theater so much here - though we did have the obligatory lines for the midnight premiers].

I really enjoyed it. Not as much as the first set, but that probably has to do as much with age/maturity as it does with film quality. It did leave me with some questions which I hope will be answered eventually, which is a good hook. There were a couple of bits of plot that I just thought stretched it too far (but no more than the Matrix did per se). And a couple of incredibly underdeveloped characters - made me ask why they were even in the movie other than for marketing purposes. But it was rollicking fun and of course, a techno-blast. Hey, I'm easy...

Ta,
Peg

Good Grief, I missed the whole episode over the weekend. My hubby got new computer bits to play with, so we've been down for the last several days. To think what only a few days away from the board has done! Punishment for the faithless. *laf*

I asked Harlan all my deep questions when I did the charity call bit. And the thought of bothering him with trivial questions...well, I shudder to consider the consequences. Though if he wants to own up what his favorite coffee is, it'll satisfy my wee curiosity as a coffee semi-connoisseur. (He was making coffee while we were on the phone...made me wonder).

Ta,
Peg

RE, my QUESTION FOR HARLAN: That should read, "...your stories are like your children..." (Sheesh - I'm firing my typist). Out here,DTS.

QUESTION FOR HARLAN (saved from the twilight zone of cyberspace): In most of your past interviews, you've said that your stories are like siblings, and that they stand in lieu of the real thing. Now that you've settled down with the right woman, have you reconsidered and thought about having a kid (after reversing the vasectomy, of course). After all, Tony Randall became a father in his mid-seventies -- and you're only 65! (I ask, because in all of your essays and lectures, mentioning encounters with them, you seem to be comfortable around children -- a big plus when considering fatherhood). Out here, DTS (aka, Dorman Truett Shindler).

Well, they say the third times the charm...
So Rick, your saying that Harlan telling me to "piss off" in front of all of Webderland [and all her ships at sea] was flensed from the collective memory? How Orwellian.
Here's a couple of low slow pitches to get things going and yet somehow prevent Harlan from wanting to put a knife in my forehead. Not that I blame him.
1.] How did your parents end up in Ohio? Which generation off the boat? Has anybody in your family done any geneological research?
2. Speaking of boats - how did you end up working on a tuna/shrimp boat? treetopping? and howzabout the oil rig? Is this all around the same time? Pre- OSU or between OSU and the Army/NYC days?
3.] How'd you get hooked up with Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do classes? Can you kick James Coburn's ass? What does he say about that?
4.] When will my acne clear up? What's the deal with girls? How high is up?
Hell, somebody had to take a turn in the barrel. Later kids...
Barney - THE glutton for punishment.

Hey all- Found a nifty wittle book called "Faster Than Light", which contains he's original teleplay, "Phoenix Without Ashes", along with some illustrations.. Jack Dann edited it. A 1976 issue. Thought I'd mention it for you completists out there. Was this repinted anywhere else?

Well, as might have been expected Harlan's offer to answer questions here brought our widdle webserver to its knees. As I was out of town I was unable to manage the load and the board was lost. We've located a backup of the board (thanks, Shane!) as of May 21st around 1pm and I've restored that and archived older stuff. It's not the prettiest sight in the world but dammit at least its there! I've also added a backup function to the board, if the server is so loaded it can't even backup or you guys fill up the disk again the board will refuse to accept messages and we won't (hopefully!) lose data.

If anyone has a later backup than 5/21 of the board, please e-mail it to me. Otherwise if your question got deleted then please repost it BRIEFLY, Harlan will still try to answer it.